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Last April I have seen two of the three so-called independent typists, that are referred to in the text. J. Burke, does not type independently, but with physical support. He is verbal and he is able to read aloud the text, after he had typet it together with his facilitator. That is not exactly what you would imagine under the label "independant writer." The other, Sue Rubin, is only able to type when her mother supports her physically or moves the keyboard in front of her.
Allmuth 17:39, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I met Jamie Burke too. I agree that he types "with physical support" in the sense that he types best if his mother puts her hand on his shoulder to encourage him, or holds his lightwriter in front of him. I think it is inaccurate to say he is a "so-called independent typist" and assert that he does not type independently. In my view it is far more accurate to say that he does type independently. My credentials? I am a Professor in the physics department at the university of cambridge, and am always a firm sceptic about "minority" views (such as homeopathy, water memory, etc). But I think, friend Allmuth, that you are misrepresenting Jamie Burke's genuine abilities. He communicates. I have conversed with him: I spoke to him. He typed back his responses and read them to me. I also witnessed Jamie Burke having direct verbal conversations with his mother. He often speaks directly to her now, rather than doing the typing-then-reading it routine.
131.111.48.116 01:34, 9 February 2006 (UTC) David MacKay
As you see, you did your observations, I did mine, and we saw different realities. To decide about the nature of the phenomena, we need an evaluation under controlled conditions. As far as I know Mister Burke has not been tested. You are right in the obervation that he can speak. I heard him talk too. But he reported (typing) that the "high quality words" only appear when he is facilitated by his mother and afterwards reads aloud the text he has produced with her help.
Allmuth 15:03, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
The article is clear on that definition. When hundreds of people observe these individuals typing without physical support, and anyone can do so at any time, that should suffice as evidence that they are indeed typing without physical support whether or not Allmuth, or Gina Green, etc., has personally observed it. Jamie doesn't always need a hand on the shoulder; hundreds of people have seen him type independently at conferences, including the ICDL conference in the Washington, DC area in 2003, where I met him. He answered questions quite eloquently in front of an audience of several hundred. If Jamie does even better with physical support, that doesn't invalidate what he does without physical support: rather, it fits in with what Jamie and others say about apraxia, anxiety and the importance of touch.
As for Sue Rubin, she types without any physical support, and needs someone (not only her mother) to hold the keyboard in front of her, as shown in "Autism Is A World" and observed by many people (me included). Sharisa Joy Kochmeister needs her father or someone she trusts standing next to her. Sharisa has been tested many times; I'll try and find citations to those tests, and to tests that other now-independent FC users have taken. (See my page http://www.geocities.com/acujames/indep.htm for more on the issue of independence. For the record, I'm both a scientist and the parent of a child with autism and apraxia who FC's, points independently at words, and has done message-passing.) - Jim Butler 00:00, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I think the independent typing section is good now. Well done. Even if 99% of "FC" were wishful thinking and hokum, the skeptics should not be allowed to tar with the same brush the genuine 1% where FC has worked and transformed lives. I edited the opening paragraph of the article to remove the assertion that "the majority of scientists are skeptical". I think that assertion was too woolly. What are they sceptical about? If they are sceptical about a particular case of FC they saw on the TV, fair enough. I don't think any responsible scientist would ever say "I believe every single claim of FC is hokum". 131.111.48.116 21:07, 10 February 2006 (UTC) David MacKay
On 28 January 2006, user 68.42.137.133 added this:
I have problems with both of these criticisms as phrased. It's not accurate to say that FC users "cannot answer a series of simple questions under controlled conditions" when many of them reportedly have done so, even if those tests were not published in the peer-reviewed literature. (Children in schools take and pass standardized tests all the time, and are presumed to have done so despite these accomplishments not appearing in the literature.) And while a majority of the positive studies may be "qualitative", one cannot say that all of them are, so that critcism is also misleading. Comments? - Jim Butler 07:30, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
OK, I just revised the Concerns section fairly extensively:
- Jim Butler 06:51, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
If you are working on the Concerns Section, then this paragraph Needs to go or be signifcantly revised: Recent research partially addresses some of the concerns initially voiced about FC. With regard to FC users not looking at the keyboard, one possible explanation is that some autistic people have difficulty looking at objects directly, and use greater peripheral vision to compensate. A recent study suggested that some FC users first scan the keyboard and then type while looking elsewhere . With regard to claims of sexual abuse, untrue allegations are also seen among typically-communicating children. In an evaluation of claims of sexual abuse from children using FC, some children did indeed show evidence of abuse, and the pattern of abuse paralleled the patterns seen in the nondisabled, speaking population .
There are quite a few problems with it. It makes an undocumented assertion that Autistics have problems looking at objects directly and that they possess "greater" peripheral vision. Link 11 Points to a page that promises a paper on the subject in the future, and does not site the supposed studies that the paper will be written on(nor does it even give a possible date when said paper will be available) Link 12 points to a study in which the first sentance in the conclusion is:"These results neither support nor refute validation of facilitated communication." All that stuff needs to go. I would delete it, but I don't want to mess up the flow of the section. So, please, fix it up or delete it.
this is mostly about the sources, but I also belive that this page is attempting heavily biased towards FC. it does note cite many studies that have found FC to be lacking, and the trend of the page is to lay out the skeptical argument in a sentance and then spend a paragraph responding. Also, since Fc apears to lack much(if any) coroberating evidence, the article spends alot of time citing anticdotes or appeals to emotion. I will be glad to elaborate, but these things need fiing first and formost.
Introdcution However, recent controlled studies have shown authentic instances of FC, and a few FC users can now communicate without any physical support at all.(Unattributed)
History in 1979 one of Crossley's students, Anne McDonald, left the hospital after successfully fighting an action for Habeas Corpus in the Supreme Court of Victoria(unattributed)
Link 1: appears to be an Obituaray and is thus not a verifyable source. DOes not mention: "His son was later able to type with just a hand on his shoulder, via gradual "fading" of physical suppot" that was attributed to this source
3rd paragraph and the assertions therin are not attributed to any source.
Concerns, Research
FC proponents responded with criticisms of negative bias(what is negetive bias? The wikipedia link dosen't define the term. is it finding that FC is not legit? That's not "negative", that's a "conclusion".
Link 5 Is a personal homepage(and a rant) and not a verifyable source(
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~dealcc/FrontA.htm)
not all such allegations were proven true.(unattributed, and weasly use of lanuage)
general, positive results were seen in more naturalistic settings, and negative results in more clinical settings.(Unattributed)
FC proponents argue that in most of the negative studies, the laboratory setting could itself be the confounding variable: i.e., communication is inherently very difficult for autistic people, so they can't necessarily be expected to replicate their successes under unfamiliar or even hostile conditions (e.g., those in which continuance of access to FC was contingent upon passing or failing the test).(Unattributed)
Sue Rubin, an FC user initially diagnosed as mentally retarded but who now attends college and types without physical support (see below), has described her own experience with facilitator influence(since she has never typed without a facilitator ,This should at the very least say allegedly discribed. it should probably be deleted. you may ask if I Can find a source that questions the if Sue Rubin has the abilites that are claimed of her? yep: http://www.baam.emich.edu/baamnewsarchive/BAAMbnaautismmovie.htm . You can argue that this source should not be included. You may be right. But it is at least as attributable as the SUe Rubin article, and should be mentioned as a rebutle if the sentances stands(which it shouldn't))
By the late 1990's, FC had been discredited in the eyes of most scientists and professional organizations; it retained acceptance in some treatment centers in North America, Europe and Australia.(Unattributed)
Independant typeing
FC user Alberto Frugone has eloquently described the emotional and physical hurdles involved in working toward independence(This makes an emotional judgement.((eloquently). it does not belong here. plus, the ciatation is unverifable, as it is a personal webpage)
Link 16 is not a verifiable source( http://www.breaking-the-barriers.org/stories_jamie.htm) Link 17 is a personal homepage and not a verifyable source( http://hometown.aol.com/sharisajoy/myhomepage/profile.html) Link 18 is an anecdote and not an acceptable soruce( http://soeweb.syr.edu/thefci/9-1hen.htm) link 19 is a personal homepage and not a verifyable source( http://www.sue-rubin.org/) Link 22 is a personal homepage and not a veryfiable source( http://www.geocities.com/acujames/frugone1.htm)
The facilitated communication digest is probably not an acceptable source((Bauman 1993,8,13,20,21)except for the FC training standerds. I can't be sure though, I suspect this should be solved by a 3rd party. Regradless, the Aleged stories written by FC users should not be used as primary sources, regardless of where they come from.
as an aside, I anticipate the argument that elsewhere on wikipedia people an be attributed as the authours of works without people questioning wheather they were in fact written by the author. However, I beleive that since the primary question FC is authorship, then questioning the authorship of any document written via facilitated communication is a vaild question, unless there is a attributable source who verifies that the attributed author produced or is capable of producing independent Writing. No such source exists in this article, for Sue Rubin or anyone else. " 71.135.102.35 12:51, 5 March 2006 (UTC)"
Hello 71.135.102.35. Your difficulties with facts, logic and written communication make it somewhat difficult to address the points you raise. However, I certainly understand that these things are difficult for some people and will try to address your points on their merits as best I can. Your comments below are italicized.
>this is mostly about the sources, but I also belive that this page is attempting heavily biased towards FC. it does note cite many studies that have found FC to be lacking,
In fact it cites several, including a review by Jacobson.
> and the trend of the page is to lay out the skeptical argument in a sentance and then spend a paragraph responding.
I disagree; others readers can judge for themselves.
>Also, since Fc apears to lack much(if any) coroberating evidence, the article spends alot of time citing anticdotes or appeals to emotion.
Not so. It cites several controlled studies. The "anecdotal" mentions of independent FC users are verifiable, and several of these people are mentioned in a textbook on AAC (Beukelman and Mirenda).
> Introdcution - However, recent controlled studies have shown authentic instances of FC, and a few FC users can now communicate without any physical support at all.(Unattributed)
That sentence is from the introduction and refers to sections in the article that are well-referenced (Concerns and Independent Typing).
> History in 1979 one of Crossley's students, Anne McDonald, left the hospital after successfully fighting an action for Habeas Corpus in the Supreme Court of Victoria(unattributed)
That same paragraph refers to the book, Annie's Coming Out, in which these events are described.
>Link 1: appears to be an Obituaray and is thus not a verifyable source.
Obituaries of famous scientists on websites of major universities are plenty verifiable.
>DOes not mention: "His son was later able to type with just a hand on his shoulder, via gradual "fading" of physical suppot" that was attributed to this source
True. I changed the text to reflect this.
>3rd paragraph and the assertions therin are not attributed to any source.
I'll dig one up. No one seriously disputes these things, however.
>Concerns, Research - FC proponents responded with criticisms of negative bias(what is negetive bias? The wikipedia link dosen't define the term. is it finding that FC is not legit? That's not "negative", that's a "conclusion". Link 5 Is a personal homepage(and a rant) and not a verifyable source( http://home.vicnet.net.au/~dealcc/FrontA.htm)
What's so hard to understand about this? FC proponents charged that the Frontline show was biased. The site linked to that you call a "rant" in fact was published by FC proponents in response to Frontline, and gives their reasons. It's what is called a "primary source" and it stays.
>not all such allegations were proven true.(unattributed, and weasly use of lanuage)
It's accurate and fine as is.
>general, positive results were seen in more naturalistic settings, and negative results in more clinical settings.(Unattributed)
Fixed.
>FC proponents argue that in most of the negative studies, the laboratory setting could itself be the confounding variable: i.e., communication is inherently very difficult for autistic people, so they can't necessarily be expected to replicate their successes under unfamiliar or even hostile conditions (e.g., those in which continuance of access to FC was contingent upon passing or failing the test).(Unattributed)
The arguments of FC proponents are referenced throughout the article, e.g. here. I added Moore as an example of a study "in which continuance of access to FC was contingent upon passing or failing the test".
>Sue Rubin, an FC user initially diagnosed as mentally retarded but who now attends college and types without physical support (see below), has described her own experience with facilitator influence(since she has never typed without a facilitator
Yes she did, and does.
>This should at the very least say allegedly discribed. it should probably be deleted. you may ask if I Can find a source that questions the if Sue Rubin has the abilites that are claimed of her? yep: http://www.baam.emich.edu/baamnewsarchive/BAAMbnaautismmovie.htm . You can argue that this source should not be included. You may be right.
It's factually wrong. Sue didn't write the script with FC. She did so by typing as she does now, without physical support. The documentary shows her typing without anyone physically supporting her.
> But it is at least as attributable as the SUe Rubin article, and should be mentioned as a rebutle if the sentances stands(which it shouldn't))
I've tried, but I can't figure out what that sentence even means.
>By the late 1990's, FC had been discredited in the eyes of most scientists and professional organizations; it retained acceptance in some treatment centers in North America, Europe and Australia.(Unattributed)
DEAL and the FCI are examples, as is clear enough from the article.
>FC user Alberto Frugone has eloquently described the emotional and physical hurdles involved in working toward independence(This makes an emotional judgement.((eloquently). it does not belong here. plus, the ciatation is unverifable, as it is a personal webpage)
"Eloquently" is very mild POV and within Wikipedia standards. The cite is from a printed newsletter. Verifiability allows for personal testimonials when the article is about such individuals. Of course an article about FC should have some statements by FC users.
>Link 16 is not a verifiable source( http://www.breaking-the-barriers.org/stories_jamie.htm)
A personal account on a major disabilities website from Jamie Burke, a young man who lectures around the country, is plenty verifiable.
>Link 17 is a personal homepage and not a verifyable source( http://hometown.aol.com/sharisajoy/myhomepage/profile.html)
See comments under Frugone.
>Link 18 is an anecdote and not an acceptable soruce( http://soeweb.syr.edu/thefci/9-1hen.htm)
It's a review of an autobiographical account from an FC user who eventually typed on her own. It's fine.
>link 19 is a personal homepage and not a verifyable source( http://www.sue-rubin.org/)
See comments under Frugone.
>Link 22 is a personal homepage and not a veryfiable source( http://www.geocities.com/acujames/frugone1.htm)
This is Frugone again.
>The facilitated communication digest is probably not an acceptable source((Bauman 1993,8,13,20,21)except for the FC training standerds.
It's fine. The article is about FC. Why shouldn't the website of one of the major training centers be referenced for certain things? It contains accounts of debate and personal accounts, both of which are entirely acceptable in the article.
>I can't be sure though, I suspect this should be solved by a 3rd party. Regradless, the Aleged stories written by FC users should not be used as primary sources, regardless of where they come from.
Accounts by people who now type independently are generally considered to be beyond dispute, except by people who lie or are misinformed, like the BAAM site above. Since the article lays out caveats about authorship, but also cites independent typists and controlled studies validating FC, FC cannot be dismissed so easily, nor can accounts from every user.
>as an aside, I anticipate the argument that elsewhere on wikipedia people an be attributed as the authours of works without people questioning wheather they were in fact written by the author. However, I beleive that since the primary question FC is authorship, then questioning the authorship of any document written via facilitated communication is a vaild question, unless there is a attributable source who verifies that the attributed author produced or is capable of producing independent Writing. No such source exists in this article, for Sue Rubin or anyone else.
Wrong. See my comments just above. Likewise, see Beukelman and Mirenda. A leading textbook in AAC is about as verifiable as one can get, and a quote from it closes the article and mentions independent typists. Yet you claim that "no such source exists".
Your errors continue to speak for themselves. The majority of your criticisms have no merit, and those that do are minor, and most of them I've fixed. Thanks for pointing out a few needed fixes, and no thanks for wasting a lot of my time on the rest. - Jim Butler 08:39, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Respnding to 71.135.102.35 11:12, 9 March 2006 (UTC), I'm moving the indents back for some breathing room! I read the Wikipedia guidlines as saying that the FCI or DEAL (Borthwick is with the latter) are reliable as primary sources for their own opinions and can therefore be cited when writing about them. (These kinds of citation do and should go on elsewhere on Wikipedia; cf. the article on Baraminology.)
The question you raise is how to distinguish real experts from phony experts. The answer is that there is historical evidence that these two entities have been major trainers and proponents of FC for well over a decade. Anyone familiar with FC already knows thus but I will lay it out here anyway, for now restricting myself to online sources even though there are plenty of citations in the peer-reviewed literature citing both groups, especially during the period of popularization, backlash and debate in the early 1990's. DEAL and FCI are the two major entities responsible for popularizing and disseminating FC in Australia and English-speaking North American respectively. DEAL in Australia (where Borthwick works) has been around since before the 1980's, and the FCI since the early '90's. See for example this mention of Crossley and Anne McDonald in the New York Times from 1985. See also the home page of Syracuse University's School of Education, and this article by Doug Wheeler (who supervised the first controlled study, which showed facilitator cueing). More on Borthwick: a search for "Borthwick C" on Pubmed returns seven hits, most of them on medical ethics; he's coauthored at least two peer-reviewed papers ( [1], [2]) in refereed journals with Rosemary Crossley. Borthwick is also well-respected in the FC community for maintaining a comprehensive annotated bibliography on FC. Finally, Frugone for that matter has a chapter in the latest book edited by Biklen, so he's not just some made-up character. - Jim Butler 19:57, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
> Besides, Beukelman and Mirenda qualify as an independent, third-party source for the independnent typists.
not unless they give any reason for their belief. As far as I know neither of them has done research about that subject. Only to claim that there are independent writers is not a valid argument.
If someone only claims that something is the case without giving reason why this is, than this is not a source, it is only an opinion. By the way, why only speaking of Beukelman and Mirenda and not mentioning that almost all other leading scientists in AAC do not believe that FC is a valid technique, for instance von Tetzcher and Lloyd. Nor do the scientists that research autism, cf. Frith or Howlin.
Allmuth 21:34, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
hmm. I do not know either. Maybe we should ask them?
What I did not like about the citation is the selectivity. In the field of AAC are so many critics of FC, besides the above mentioned I remember Howard Shane ... all well-known persons. But you only pick up the citation from Beukelman/Mirenda and this one comes without any information about how they got their knowledge.
Allmuth 23:58, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I think you assume that AAC-experts who do not acknowledge the existence of independent writers are adversarial or ignorant. This assumption might be wrong. It is not possible to acknowledge an evidence that is only stated by the proponents of the method and not corroborated by research from outside the FC-circle. In former times there had been such research, but now it is impossible to find clients. The FC-community simply does not allow to have a closer look on this people. All what you get are repetitions of the claim, very confusing Videos who often even does not show what is claimed and accusations of being an enemy of freedom of speech and of people with autism.
Allmuth 12:47, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
even if there were independent typists (according to my observations Sue Rubin, Albert Frugione and Jamie Burke are not independent, but I know a german boy that according to the observations of a friend of mine whom I trust is), this would not tell us much about the efficacy of FC. No one knows the causal agent in changes that appear under naturalistic conditions. If a person gets FC-training and afterwards types independently, you do not know if this result was because of the FC-training or maybe despite the FC-training. You really do not know. Imagine that all autistic people get FC-training. As far as we know some autistic people are able to learn to write. If they achieve this under FC-training (because they get their education by FC, not by traditional means)you cannot be sure that this had been the reason. Because there is not a control group that got traditional training in literacy and scored worse. Post hoc is not propter hoc. In other words: If 20 of hundred autistic persons can learn to read and write (actually that transformation is my profession), and they only get the opportunity to learn it via FC, than it does not prove the efficacy of FC if they do. You need a control group. Imagine that literacy training would only be given to autistic people if they wear a red scarf. And then some would learn to write. In this case you cannot conclude that they had learnt to write because of the red scarf. You need a control group.
Allmuth 03:16, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree that it would be supporting evidence of the validity of the method if there were persons who first could only type while being facilitated, now can type without facilitation and declare they have been communicating from the beginning. But I do not agree to your claim that such persons have been found (in the published literature) yet. Allmuth 00:05, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
eye wittnesses: I strongly didsagree. Remember Robert Hare, remember the Pre-Pfungst-Committee. All trained experts.
Allmuth 13:15, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
By the way, what makes the issue even more confusing is the fact that there seem to be persons who can type in both modes: unfacilitated (according to there overall level of communication) and facilitated (the high quality words). For instance the girl in the Twatchman-Study and Mr. Burk. And the girl that has been studied by Patricia Howlin in 1996. I attach no sources, it is late now. But I can add them if you do not know the Howlin-Study.
Allmuth 00:09, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
I do not understand this point. I intented to say that it is very likely that there are persons who (a)can write on their own and (b)are trained to play a sensomotory-game, directing their index-finger toward letters that the facilitator selects by using the tactile (sometimes also auditory, visual, proprioceptive ones) signals. I gave examples, e.g. the girl evaluated by Howlin. If such a person types independently a shopping list, you cannot conclude from this evidence that she is the author of the sequence of letters she produces in the facilitated mode. As to your son: There does not seem to be a big difference in his unfacilitated and facilitated communication abilities, if I understood you correct. And of course it is possible to teach literacy via (subtle or not so subtle) hand guidance. There might be better ways, but hand-guidance works too.
Allmuth 13:15, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
"anxit" should have been "anxiety" Allmuth 14:10, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I think the article is still very inadequate. A) Of course there are independent typists - how should it be otherwise if one does not claim that every person being touched while writing looses her ability to type. This is not the disput about FC. The question about FC is rather, if there are persons that type with FC above their non-FC-baseline. In the controlled studies were two types of FC-users: (1) the cued ones, that wrote their facilitator's thoughts (about 90 %) and (2)genuine writers that wrote their own texts, but the quality of the texts was not better or even worse than their unfacilitated texts. In (1) the use of FC did not lead to communication of the typists, in (2) it did so, the communication was real, but FC did not help in facilitating the communication. B) Even if persons that communicate better with FC than without could be found (there are no published cases but I am rather sure those cases exist), this would not prove anything about the efficacy of FC. Imagine that autistic students get their literacy teaching only in the facilitated mode (in some classes in Germany this is the case), then they will learn to type while being touched (they did not have the opportunity to learn it otherwise) and later on maybe stick to this touch and it could be difficult to fade it. Prompt-dependence. If you want to prove that FC works you need controls, not only descriptions of developments. C) If FC were valid, nearly all what we think to know about autism and about Down-Syndrome would be wrong and has to be reconceptualized. I think this is a very important aspect of the debate and it should not be missed. D) I think it is an evidence of incapacity to found one's arguments with the opinions of "leading persons". I would prefer to go back to the facts and report what is known about the effectiveness of FC and what is disputed and what is unknown. Ok. This are some of my thoughts about the article in the recent version and I would like to read some comments. Allmuth 22:46, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Allmuth 13:55, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
FC challenges much of the dogmas about mental retardation and literacy, but doesn't deny a great deal of the other aspects of Downs, autism, etc. (Nor is FC something that we should assume works in every case, especially given the data on facilitator influence.) But yes, it does challenge the way people like Anne McDonald, Sharisa Joy etc have been diagnosed and treated, and raises questions about others with similar disabilities. Presuming MR can be very damaging and I'd like to see that default assumption go. And by the way, it's not just FC that challenges the idea that nonverbal autistic people with strange behaviors are "out of touch" and MR; are you familiar with
Tito Mukhopadhyay?
Allmuth 13:55, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
So I think we would agree that these are indeed vital issues, but should be distinguished from what the evidence says. Which leads to your final point:
Hi Kevin! Do you have a reference for this statement you inserted:
To the best of my knowledge, FC trainers and proponents consistently define independent typing as the previous version of the article had it: typing without physical support, i.e. without anyone touching the user. The caveats about other supports, like holding the keyboard, can stay but the article needs to be factual. I can reference this from the FCI and will change it unless you can point to something I've been overlooking. - Jim Butler 00:38, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi Jim! Have you really read this article? If you like, I'll send you a copy. In my opinion it does not qualify as a source for the claim that there are independent writers. It is a case description, stating that Mr. Burk has been trained in FC for long years and that he is able to read, that is to decode written text into speech. That is not the claim that should be supported. Therefore the reference is misleading. Reliable source: yes (on the level of anecdotical evidence, it is not a study in the proper sense), reference for the existence of independent writers (in the sense of the FC-paradigma): No
By the way: I preferred the summary before your edit. It was much more neutral. The debate about the independent writers belongs in the research/concerns section. Unfortunately I am away the next weeks, but after my return I will take my FC-Files out of the cellar and try to rewrite the research section in a more structured and balanced way. Allmuth 08:37, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
my observations: After much training, a small proportion of FC-users are capable of typing with only visual or auditory contact to the facilitator, especially if reduced selection sets (e.g. yes/no cards, use of the space key, use of the delete key) are used. Years of training are necessary to achieve this level of competency. In some of these cases, the hand of the facilitator "shadows" the hand of the facilitated person.In other cases, the facilitator sits beneath the individual who scans with his index finger over the keyboard and gives a verbal prompt, for example Push! when the finger is above the "right" key. my conclusion: it is not clear what "the existence of independent writers" really mean with regard of the validity of FC. It is disputable. Therefor it belongs in the research/concerns section, not in the summary. The latter would suggest that the existence of those people would be kind of proof of the validity of the method (the Beukelman/Mirenda-fallacy) Allmuth 09:01, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately this phrase has been reedited into the summary again. In my opinion this is misleading. The question is not, if people can communicate while being facilitated. The question is, if they can better communicate while being facilitated than while not being facilitated. This has to been shown. For example: In one of the controlled studies a person is able to identify some numbers while facilitated. In the baseline (condition without facilitating) she is also able to do this. The proponents interpret this as authentic communication (yes) and as a proof for the validity of the method (no). Allmuth 09:10, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
71.135.102.35 (unsigned, but apparently posting from a different I.P address, above) indicated a desire to "call in a moderator" regarding a dispute with me over citations to the Facilitated Communication Institute at Syracuse University and other proponents of FC. I'm not sure which route of dispute resolution he proposes to follow, and I hope he clarifies this. A third party would be helpful, I think, and it's too bad Allmuth is away. As he said above, he and I seem to have difficulty communicating with each other (ironic, isn't it, given the topic).
IMO, the crux of the debate is reconciling the Wikipedia principles of verifiability and NPOV, particularly in the case of citing minority views. I think that the resolution is pointed to, if not stated outright, in the
Reliable Sources: Personal websites as primary sources. Proponents of minority views are often forced to self-publish.
The FCI is an institute at the School of Education at Syracuse University, and is the locus from which FC was popularized in the early 1990's. It was founded by Douglas Biklen, who learned about FC from Rosemary Crossley, a teacher at the DEAL Institute in Australia who is generally credited as being one of the people who independently "discovered" FC. (No one has disputed these claims in the article, but I notice that they are not sourced, so I will find and insert one in a few hours.) Along with DEAL, the FCI has continued to teach and advocate for FC, and provide fora for its proponents, even after most scientists concluded it was, more or less, not a valid technique. Thus, the FCI is unquestionably a major proponent of the minority view that FC is a valid form of AAC, and are therefore citable as a primary source for that viewpoint. As advocates of that view, they are in a position to verify that material on their website is an accurate portrayal of that view, and have every interest in doing so. That and their academic location make them verifiable as a primary source for their minority viewpoint. I believe the FCI, DEAL, Biklen and Crossley are also therefore verifiable as sources for identifying other prominent individual proponents of FC, including "self-advocates" (i.e., people with disabilities who, whether purportedly or genuinely, communicate via FC). Therefore, I believe that certain self-published materials of such authoritatively -cited-as-prominent proponents of FC, including their websites, are also citable as primary sources advocating for FC. (I am flexible as to which such cites make the cut, but I staunchly stand by the appropriateness of citing material published on the FCI as primary sources in the context discussed here.) However, I have not advocated that they are reliable or verifiable as a secondary source for objective claims about the efficacy of FC and the article does not cite them as such.
OK. I hope I've outlined my side of the argument clearly. I invite commentary and suggestions from my worthy opponent 71.135.102.35 and from others. May cool heads, not to mention a wise reconciliation of NPOV and verifiability, prevail. - Jim Butler 06:59, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
I cited the original Autism Network International newsletter in which the Frugone piece appeared and from which the online copy was scanned and formatted. Full disclosure: the site on which it's hosted is my own. This isn't "original research", just a copying of a printed document to the Web; it wasn't done at the time with citing on Wikipedia in mind, and simply reflects my ongoing interest in FC. My thoughts on the value of Frugone as a primary source are above under "Dispute over citations". - Jim Butler 10:23, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
I would like to change the structure of the article: Introduction: shorter and without naming single arguments from the debat (because now it contains two, the movement-disorder-hypothesis and the independent-writers-assumption. In my opinion both do not have their right place in the introduction because they are very controverse (minority opinions). I propose to locate this points in the research section. history: ok (maybe one should add information about the precursors of FC, Hansen etc.?) Concerns/research: I would like to rename this paragraph in "research" and then list the controversial issues (e.g. authorship, efficacy, movement disorder assumption, compatibility with current research in autism and literacy, gaze at the keyboard, and so on). Then present in each case (1) the assumption of the FC proponents (2) the position of the critics (3) the counter-argument of the proponents. This paragraph will include then the independent writer section as one of his sections. Then I would add a further paragraph "concerns", describing the concerns of the proponents if FC is not applied (e. g. refusing the possibility to communicate)and describing the concerns of the critics if FC is applied (e.g. attributing a false identitity and in such way impeding the communication) That's it. What do you think about this proposal? If I get positive feedback I will begin with the rewriting. I just see in the preview that I am not logged in. It is me, Allmuth. 84.175.58.17 07:11, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I just double-checked the Response to Frontline to which editor 71.135.102.35 objected on the grounds that it was unverifiable and self-published, and guess what, it's not on Chris Borthwick's site as I'd assumed -- it's actually on DEAL's site [5], which uses the same host (home.vicnet.net.au) as Borthwick does [6]. DEAL is of course where Rosemary Crossley developed FC (aka FCT) as it is now known and practiced around the world, so their site is about as verifiable and primary as a source can possibly be for FC advocacy. (Borthwick has collaborated with Crossley on FC and related issues, and is well-known as an FC proponent and is cited as such on the FCI's page [7], so his self-published stuff is also fine in that regard.) - Jim Butler 05:51, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
Please note: this is an archive page. New content should be added at the active Talk:Facilitated_communication page.
Last April I have seen two of the three so-called independent typists, that are referred to in the text. J. Burke, does not type independently, but with physical support. He is verbal and he is able to read aloud the text, after he had typet it together with his facilitator. That is not exactly what you would imagine under the label "independant writer." The other, Sue Rubin, is only able to type when her mother supports her physically or moves the keyboard in front of her.
Allmuth 17:39, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I met Jamie Burke too. I agree that he types "with physical support" in the sense that he types best if his mother puts her hand on his shoulder to encourage him, or holds his lightwriter in front of him. I think it is inaccurate to say he is a "so-called independent typist" and assert that he does not type independently. In my view it is far more accurate to say that he does type independently. My credentials? I am a Professor in the physics department at the university of cambridge, and am always a firm sceptic about "minority" views (such as homeopathy, water memory, etc). But I think, friend Allmuth, that you are misrepresenting Jamie Burke's genuine abilities. He communicates. I have conversed with him: I spoke to him. He typed back his responses and read them to me. I also witnessed Jamie Burke having direct verbal conversations with his mother. He often speaks directly to her now, rather than doing the typing-then-reading it routine.
131.111.48.116 01:34, 9 February 2006 (UTC) David MacKay
As you see, you did your observations, I did mine, and we saw different realities. To decide about the nature of the phenomena, we need an evaluation under controlled conditions. As far as I know Mister Burke has not been tested. You are right in the obervation that he can speak. I heard him talk too. But he reported (typing) that the "high quality words" only appear when he is facilitated by his mother and afterwards reads aloud the text he has produced with her help.
Allmuth 15:03, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
The article is clear on that definition. When hundreds of people observe these individuals typing without physical support, and anyone can do so at any time, that should suffice as evidence that they are indeed typing without physical support whether or not Allmuth, or Gina Green, etc., has personally observed it. Jamie doesn't always need a hand on the shoulder; hundreds of people have seen him type independently at conferences, including the ICDL conference in the Washington, DC area in 2003, where I met him. He answered questions quite eloquently in front of an audience of several hundred. If Jamie does even better with physical support, that doesn't invalidate what he does without physical support: rather, it fits in with what Jamie and others say about apraxia, anxiety and the importance of touch.
As for Sue Rubin, she types without any physical support, and needs someone (not only her mother) to hold the keyboard in front of her, as shown in "Autism Is A World" and observed by many people (me included). Sharisa Joy Kochmeister needs her father or someone she trusts standing next to her. Sharisa has been tested many times; I'll try and find citations to those tests, and to tests that other now-independent FC users have taken. (See my page http://www.geocities.com/acujames/indep.htm for more on the issue of independence. For the record, I'm both a scientist and the parent of a child with autism and apraxia who FC's, points independently at words, and has done message-passing.) - Jim Butler 00:00, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I think the independent typing section is good now. Well done. Even if 99% of "FC" were wishful thinking and hokum, the skeptics should not be allowed to tar with the same brush the genuine 1% where FC has worked and transformed lives. I edited the opening paragraph of the article to remove the assertion that "the majority of scientists are skeptical". I think that assertion was too woolly. What are they sceptical about? If they are sceptical about a particular case of FC they saw on the TV, fair enough. I don't think any responsible scientist would ever say "I believe every single claim of FC is hokum". 131.111.48.116 21:07, 10 February 2006 (UTC) David MacKay
On 28 January 2006, user 68.42.137.133 added this:
I have problems with both of these criticisms as phrased. It's not accurate to say that FC users "cannot answer a series of simple questions under controlled conditions" when many of them reportedly have done so, even if those tests were not published in the peer-reviewed literature. (Children in schools take and pass standardized tests all the time, and are presumed to have done so despite these accomplishments not appearing in the literature.) And while a majority of the positive studies may be "qualitative", one cannot say that all of them are, so that critcism is also misleading. Comments? - Jim Butler 07:30, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
OK, I just revised the Concerns section fairly extensively:
- Jim Butler 06:51, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
If you are working on the Concerns Section, then this paragraph Needs to go or be signifcantly revised: Recent research partially addresses some of the concerns initially voiced about FC. With regard to FC users not looking at the keyboard, one possible explanation is that some autistic people have difficulty looking at objects directly, and use greater peripheral vision to compensate. A recent study suggested that some FC users first scan the keyboard and then type while looking elsewhere . With regard to claims of sexual abuse, untrue allegations are also seen among typically-communicating children. In an evaluation of claims of sexual abuse from children using FC, some children did indeed show evidence of abuse, and the pattern of abuse paralleled the patterns seen in the nondisabled, speaking population .
There are quite a few problems with it. It makes an undocumented assertion that Autistics have problems looking at objects directly and that they possess "greater" peripheral vision. Link 11 Points to a page that promises a paper on the subject in the future, and does not site the supposed studies that the paper will be written on(nor does it even give a possible date when said paper will be available) Link 12 points to a study in which the first sentance in the conclusion is:"These results neither support nor refute validation of facilitated communication." All that stuff needs to go. I would delete it, but I don't want to mess up the flow of the section. So, please, fix it up or delete it.
this is mostly about the sources, but I also belive that this page is attempting heavily biased towards FC. it does note cite many studies that have found FC to be lacking, and the trend of the page is to lay out the skeptical argument in a sentance and then spend a paragraph responding. Also, since Fc apears to lack much(if any) coroberating evidence, the article spends alot of time citing anticdotes or appeals to emotion. I will be glad to elaborate, but these things need fiing first and formost.
Introdcution However, recent controlled studies have shown authentic instances of FC, and a few FC users can now communicate without any physical support at all.(Unattributed)
History in 1979 one of Crossley's students, Anne McDonald, left the hospital after successfully fighting an action for Habeas Corpus in the Supreme Court of Victoria(unattributed)
Link 1: appears to be an Obituaray and is thus not a verifyable source. DOes not mention: "His son was later able to type with just a hand on his shoulder, via gradual "fading" of physical suppot" that was attributed to this source
3rd paragraph and the assertions therin are not attributed to any source.
Concerns, Research
FC proponents responded with criticisms of negative bias(what is negetive bias? The wikipedia link dosen't define the term. is it finding that FC is not legit? That's not "negative", that's a "conclusion".
Link 5 Is a personal homepage(and a rant) and not a verifyable source(
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~dealcc/FrontA.htm)
not all such allegations were proven true.(unattributed, and weasly use of lanuage)
general, positive results were seen in more naturalistic settings, and negative results in more clinical settings.(Unattributed)
FC proponents argue that in most of the negative studies, the laboratory setting could itself be the confounding variable: i.e., communication is inherently very difficult for autistic people, so they can't necessarily be expected to replicate their successes under unfamiliar or even hostile conditions (e.g., those in which continuance of access to FC was contingent upon passing or failing the test).(Unattributed)
Sue Rubin, an FC user initially diagnosed as mentally retarded but who now attends college and types without physical support (see below), has described her own experience with facilitator influence(since she has never typed without a facilitator ,This should at the very least say allegedly discribed. it should probably be deleted. you may ask if I Can find a source that questions the if Sue Rubin has the abilites that are claimed of her? yep: http://www.baam.emich.edu/baamnewsarchive/BAAMbnaautismmovie.htm . You can argue that this source should not be included. You may be right. But it is at least as attributable as the SUe Rubin article, and should be mentioned as a rebutle if the sentances stands(which it shouldn't))
By the late 1990's, FC had been discredited in the eyes of most scientists and professional organizations; it retained acceptance in some treatment centers in North America, Europe and Australia.(Unattributed)
Independant typeing
FC user Alberto Frugone has eloquently described the emotional and physical hurdles involved in working toward independence(This makes an emotional judgement.((eloquently). it does not belong here. plus, the ciatation is unverifable, as it is a personal webpage)
Link 16 is not a verifiable source( http://www.breaking-the-barriers.org/stories_jamie.htm) Link 17 is a personal homepage and not a verifyable source( http://hometown.aol.com/sharisajoy/myhomepage/profile.html) Link 18 is an anecdote and not an acceptable soruce( http://soeweb.syr.edu/thefci/9-1hen.htm) link 19 is a personal homepage and not a verifyable source( http://www.sue-rubin.org/) Link 22 is a personal homepage and not a veryfiable source( http://www.geocities.com/acujames/frugone1.htm)
The facilitated communication digest is probably not an acceptable source((Bauman 1993,8,13,20,21)except for the FC training standerds. I can't be sure though, I suspect this should be solved by a 3rd party. Regradless, the Aleged stories written by FC users should not be used as primary sources, regardless of where they come from.
as an aside, I anticipate the argument that elsewhere on wikipedia people an be attributed as the authours of works without people questioning wheather they were in fact written by the author. However, I beleive that since the primary question FC is authorship, then questioning the authorship of any document written via facilitated communication is a vaild question, unless there is a attributable source who verifies that the attributed author produced or is capable of producing independent Writing. No such source exists in this article, for Sue Rubin or anyone else. " 71.135.102.35 12:51, 5 March 2006 (UTC)"
Hello 71.135.102.35. Your difficulties with facts, logic and written communication make it somewhat difficult to address the points you raise. However, I certainly understand that these things are difficult for some people and will try to address your points on their merits as best I can. Your comments below are italicized.
>this is mostly about the sources, but I also belive that this page is attempting heavily biased towards FC. it does note cite many studies that have found FC to be lacking,
In fact it cites several, including a review by Jacobson.
> and the trend of the page is to lay out the skeptical argument in a sentance and then spend a paragraph responding.
I disagree; others readers can judge for themselves.
>Also, since Fc apears to lack much(if any) coroberating evidence, the article spends alot of time citing anticdotes or appeals to emotion.
Not so. It cites several controlled studies. The "anecdotal" mentions of independent FC users are verifiable, and several of these people are mentioned in a textbook on AAC (Beukelman and Mirenda).
> Introdcution - However, recent controlled studies have shown authentic instances of FC, and a few FC users can now communicate without any physical support at all.(Unattributed)
That sentence is from the introduction and refers to sections in the article that are well-referenced (Concerns and Independent Typing).
> History in 1979 one of Crossley's students, Anne McDonald, left the hospital after successfully fighting an action for Habeas Corpus in the Supreme Court of Victoria(unattributed)
That same paragraph refers to the book, Annie's Coming Out, in which these events are described.
>Link 1: appears to be an Obituaray and is thus not a verifyable source.
Obituaries of famous scientists on websites of major universities are plenty verifiable.
>DOes not mention: "His son was later able to type with just a hand on his shoulder, via gradual "fading" of physical suppot" that was attributed to this source
True. I changed the text to reflect this.
>3rd paragraph and the assertions therin are not attributed to any source.
I'll dig one up. No one seriously disputes these things, however.
>Concerns, Research - FC proponents responded with criticisms of negative bias(what is negetive bias? The wikipedia link dosen't define the term. is it finding that FC is not legit? That's not "negative", that's a "conclusion". Link 5 Is a personal homepage(and a rant) and not a verifyable source( http://home.vicnet.net.au/~dealcc/FrontA.htm)
What's so hard to understand about this? FC proponents charged that the Frontline show was biased. The site linked to that you call a "rant" in fact was published by FC proponents in response to Frontline, and gives their reasons. It's what is called a "primary source" and it stays.
>not all such allegations were proven true.(unattributed, and weasly use of lanuage)
It's accurate and fine as is.
>general, positive results were seen in more naturalistic settings, and negative results in more clinical settings.(Unattributed)
Fixed.
>FC proponents argue that in most of the negative studies, the laboratory setting could itself be the confounding variable: i.e., communication is inherently very difficult for autistic people, so they can't necessarily be expected to replicate their successes under unfamiliar or even hostile conditions (e.g., those in which continuance of access to FC was contingent upon passing or failing the test).(Unattributed)
The arguments of FC proponents are referenced throughout the article, e.g. here. I added Moore as an example of a study "in which continuance of access to FC was contingent upon passing or failing the test".
>Sue Rubin, an FC user initially diagnosed as mentally retarded but who now attends college and types without physical support (see below), has described her own experience with facilitator influence(since she has never typed without a facilitator
Yes she did, and does.
>This should at the very least say allegedly discribed. it should probably be deleted. you may ask if I Can find a source that questions the if Sue Rubin has the abilites that are claimed of her? yep: http://www.baam.emich.edu/baamnewsarchive/BAAMbnaautismmovie.htm . You can argue that this source should not be included. You may be right.
It's factually wrong. Sue didn't write the script with FC. She did so by typing as she does now, without physical support. The documentary shows her typing without anyone physically supporting her.
> But it is at least as attributable as the SUe Rubin article, and should be mentioned as a rebutle if the sentances stands(which it shouldn't))
I've tried, but I can't figure out what that sentence even means.
>By the late 1990's, FC had been discredited in the eyes of most scientists and professional organizations; it retained acceptance in some treatment centers in North America, Europe and Australia.(Unattributed)
DEAL and the FCI are examples, as is clear enough from the article.
>FC user Alberto Frugone has eloquently described the emotional and physical hurdles involved in working toward independence(This makes an emotional judgement.((eloquently). it does not belong here. plus, the ciatation is unverifable, as it is a personal webpage)
"Eloquently" is very mild POV and within Wikipedia standards. The cite is from a printed newsletter. Verifiability allows for personal testimonials when the article is about such individuals. Of course an article about FC should have some statements by FC users.
>Link 16 is not a verifiable source( http://www.breaking-the-barriers.org/stories_jamie.htm)
A personal account on a major disabilities website from Jamie Burke, a young man who lectures around the country, is plenty verifiable.
>Link 17 is a personal homepage and not a verifyable source( http://hometown.aol.com/sharisajoy/myhomepage/profile.html)
See comments under Frugone.
>Link 18 is an anecdote and not an acceptable soruce( http://soeweb.syr.edu/thefci/9-1hen.htm)
It's a review of an autobiographical account from an FC user who eventually typed on her own. It's fine.
>link 19 is a personal homepage and not a verifyable source( http://www.sue-rubin.org/)
See comments under Frugone.
>Link 22 is a personal homepage and not a veryfiable source( http://www.geocities.com/acujames/frugone1.htm)
This is Frugone again.
>The facilitated communication digest is probably not an acceptable source((Bauman 1993,8,13,20,21)except for the FC training standerds.
It's fine. The article is about FC. Why shouldn't the website of one of the major training centers be referenced for certain things? It contains accounts of debate and personal accounts, both of which are entirely acceptable in the article.
>I can't be sure though, I suspect this should be solved by a 3rd party. Regradless, the Aleged stories written by FC users should not be used as primary sources, regardless of where they come from.
Accounts by people who now type independently are generally considered to be beyond dispute, except by people who lie or are misinformed, like the BAAM site above. Since the article lays out caveats about authorship, but also cites independent typists and controlled studies validating FC, FC cannot be dismissed so easily, nor can accounts from every user.
>as an aside, I anticipate the argument that elsewhere on wikipedia people an be attributed as the authours of works without people questioning wheather they were in fact written by the author. However, I beleive that since the primary question FC is authorship, then questioning the authorship of any document written via facilitated communication is a vaild question, unless there is a attributable source who verifies that the attributed author produced or is capable of producing independent Writing. No such source exists in this article, for Sue Rubin or anyone else.
Wrong. See my comments just above. Likewise, see Beukelman and Mirenda. A leading textbook in AAC is about as verifiable as one can get, and a quote from it closes the article and mentions independent typists. Yet you claim that "no such source exists".
Your errors continue to speak for themselves. The majority of your criticisms have no merit, and those that do are minor, and most of them I've fixed. Thanks for pointing out a few needed fixes, and no thanks for wasting a lot of my time on the rest. - Jim Butler 08:39, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Respnding to 71.135.102.35 11:12, 9 March 2006 (UTC), I'm moving the indents back for some breathing room! I read the Wikipedia guidlines as saying that the FCI or DEAL (Borthwick is with the latter) are reliable as primary sources for their own opinions and can therefore be cited when writing about them. (These kinds of citation do and should go on elsewhere on Wikipedia; cf. the article on Baraminology.)
The question you raise is how to distinguish real experts from phony experts. The answer is that there is historical evidence that these two entities have been major trainers and proponents of FC for well over a decade. Anyone familiar with FC already knows thus but I will lay it out here anyway, for now restricting myself to online sources even though there are plenty of citations in the peer-reviewed literature citing both groups, especially during the period of popularization, backlash and debate in the early 1990's. DEAL and FCI are the two major entities responsible for popularizing and disseminating FC in Australia and English-speaking North American respectively. DEAL in Australia (where Borthwick works) has been around since before the 1980's, and the FCI since the early '90's. See for example this mention of Crossley and Anne McDonald in the New York Times from 1985. See also the home page of Syracuse University's School of Education, and this article by Doug Wheeler (who supervised the first controlled study, which showed facilitator cueing). More on Borthwick: a search for "Borthwick C" on Pubmed returns seven hits, most of them on medical ethics; he's coauthored at least two peer-reviewed papers ( [1], [2]) in refereed journals with Rosemary Crossley. Borthwick is also well-respected in the FC community for maintaining a comprehensive annotated bibliography on FC. Finally, Frugone for that matter has a chapter in the latest book edited by Biklen, so he's not just some made-up character. - Jim Butler 19:57, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
> Besides, Beukelman and Mirenda qualify as an independent, third-party source for the independnent typists.
not unless they give any reason for their belief. As far as I know neither of them has done research about that subject. Only to claim that there are independent writers is not a valid argument.
If someone only claims that something is the case without giving reason why this is, than this is not a source, it is only an opinion. By the way, why only speaking of Beukelman and Mirenda and not mentioning that almost all other leading scientists in AAC do not believe that FC is a valid technique, for instance von Tetzcher and Lloyd. Nor do the scientists that research autism, cf. Frith or Howlin.
Allmuth 21:34, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
hmm. I do not know either. Maybe we should ask them?
What I did not like about the citation is the selectivity. In the field of AAC are so many critics of FC, besides the above mentioned I remember Howard Shane ... all well-known persons. But you only pick up the citation from Beukelman/Mirenda and this one comes without any information about how they got their knowledge.
Allmuth 23:58, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I think you assume that AAC-experts who do not acknowledge the existence of independent writers are adversarial or ignorant. This assumption might be wrong. It is not possible to acknowledge an evidence that is only stated by the proponents of the method and not corroborated by research from outside the FC-circle. In former times there had been such research, but now it is impossible to find clients. The FC-community simply does not allow to have a closer look on this people. All what you get are repetitions of the claim, very confusing Videos who often even does not show what is claimed and accusations of being an enemy of freedom of speech and of people with autism.
Allmuth 12:47, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
even if there were independent typists (according to my observations Sue Rubin, Albert Frugione and Jamie Burke are not independent, but I know a german boy that according to the observations of a friend of mine whom I trust is), this would not tell us much about the efficacy of FC. No one knows the causal agent in changes that appear under naturalistic conditions. If a person gets FC-training and afterwards types independently, you do not know if this result was because of the FC-training or maybe despite the FC-training. You really do not know. Imagine that all autistic people get FC-training. As far as we know some autistic people are able to learn to write. If they achieve this under FC-training (because they get their education by FC, not by traditional means)you cannot be sure that this had been the reason. Because there is not a control group that got traditional training in literacy and scored worse. Post hoc is not propter hoc. In other words: If 20 of hundred autistic persons can learn to read and write (actually that transformation is my profession), and they only get the opportunity to learn it via FC, than it does not prove the efficacy of FC if they do. You need a control group. Imagine that literacy training would only be given to autistic people if they wear a red scarf. And then some would learn to write. In this case you cannot conclude that they had learnt to write because of the red scarf. You need a control group.
Allmuth 03:16, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree that it would be supporting evidence of the validity of the method if there were persons who first could only type while being facilitated, now can type without facilitation and declare they have been communicating from the beginning. But I do not agree to your claim that such persons have been found (in the published literature) yet. Allmuth 00:05, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
eye wittnesses: I strongly didsagree. Remember Robert Hare, remember the Pre-Pfungst-Committee. All trained experts.
Allmuth 13:15, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
By the way, what makes the issue even more confusing is the fact that there seem to be persons who can type in both modes: unfacilitated (according to there overall level of communication) and facilitated (the high quality words). For instance the girl in the Twatchman-Study and Mr. Burk. And the girl that has been studied by Patricia Howlin in 1996. I attach no sources, it is late now. But I can add them if you do not know the Howlin-Study.
Allmuth 00:09, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
I do not understand this point. I intented to say that it is very likely that there are persons who (a)can write on their own and (b)are trained to play a sensomotory-game, directing their index-finger toward letters that the facilitator selects by using the tactile (sometimes also auditory, visual, proprioceptive ones) signals. I gave examples, e.g. the girl evaluated by Howlin. If such a person types independently a shopping list, you cannot conclude from this evidence that she is the author of the sequence of letters she produces in the facilitated mode. As to your son: There does not seem to be a big difference in his unfacilitated and facilitated communication abilities, if I understood you correct. And of course it is possible to teach literacy via (subtle or not so subtle) hand guidance. There might be better ways, but hand-guidance works too.
Allmuth 13:15, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
"anxit" should have been "anxiety" Allmuth 14:10, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I think the article is still very inadequate. A) Of course there are independent typists - how should it be otherwise if one does not claim that every person being touched while writing looses her ability to type. This is not the disput about FC. The question about FC is rather, if there are persons that type with FC above their non-FC-baseline. In the controlled studies were two types of FC-users: (1) the cued ones, that wrote their facilitator's thoughts (about 90 %) and (2)genuine writers that wrote their own texts, but the quality of the texts was not better or even worse than their unfacilitated texts. In (1) the use of FC did not lead to communication of the typists, in (2) it did so, the communication was real, but FC did not help in facilitating the communication. B) Even if persons that communicate better with FC than without could be found (there are no published cases but I am rather sure those cases exist), this would not prove anything about the efficacy of FC. Imagine that autistic students get their literacy teaching only in the facilitated mode (in some classes in Germany this is the case), then they will learn to type while being touched (they did not have the opportunity to learn it otherwise) and later on maybe stick to this touch and it could be difficult to fade it. Prompt-dependence. If you want to prove that FC works you need controls, not only descriptions of developments. C) If FC were valid, nearly all what we think to know about autism and about Down-Syndrome would be wrong and has to be reconceptualized. I think this is a very important aspect of the debate and it should not be missed. D) I think it is an evidence of incapacity to found one's arguments with the opinions of "leading persons". I would prefer to go back to the facts and report what is known about the effectiveness of FC and what is disputed and what is unknown. Ok. This are some of my thoughts about the article in the recent version and I would like to read some comments. Allmuth 22:46, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Allmuth 13:55, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
FC challenges much of the dogmas about mental retardation and literacy, but doesn't deny a great deal of the other aspects of Downs, autism, etc. (Nor is FC something that we should assume works in every case, especially given the data on facilitator influence.) But yes, it does challenge the way people like Anne McDonald, Sharisa Joy etc have been diagnosed and treated, and raises questions about others with similar disabilities. Presuming MR can be very damaging and I'd like to see that default assumption go. And by the way, it's not just FC that challenges the idea that nonverbal autistic people with strange behaviors are "out of touch" and MR; are you familiar with
Tito Mukhopadhyay?
Allmuth 13:55, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
So I think we would agree that these are indeed vital issues, but should be distinguished from what the evidence says. Which leads to your final point:
Hi Kevin! Do you have a reference for this statement you inserted:
To the best of my knowledge, FC trainers and proponents consistently define independent typing as the previous version of the article had it: typing without physical support, i.e. without anyone touching the user. The caveats about other supports, like holding the keyboard, can stay but the article needs to be factual. I can reference this from the FCI and will change it unless you can point to something I've been overlooking. - Jim Butler 00:38, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi Jim! Have you really read this article? If you like, I'll send you a copy. In my opinion it does not qualify as a source for the claim that there are independent writers. It is a case description, stating that Mr. Burk has been trained in FC for long years and that he is able to read, that is to decode written text into speech. That is not the claim that should be supported. Therefore the reference is misleading. Reliable source: yes (on the level of anecdotical evidence, it is not a study in the proper sense), reference for the existence of independent writers (in the sense of the FC-paradigma): No
By the way: I preferred the summary before your edit. It was much more neutral. The debate about the independent writers belongs in the research/concerns section. Unfortunately I am away the next weeks, but after my return I will take my FC-Files out of the cellar and try to rewrite the research section in a more structured and balanced way. Allmuth 08:37, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
my observations: After much training, a small proportion of FC-users are capable of typing with only visual or auditory contact to the facilitator, especially if reduced selection sets (e.g. yes/no cards, use of the space key, use of the delete key) are used. Years of training are necessary to achieve this level of competency. In some of these cases, the hand of the facilitator "shadows" the hand of the facilitated person.In other cases, the facilitator sits beneath the individual who scans with his index finger over the keyboard and gives a verbal prompt, for example Push! when the finger is above the "right" key. my conclusion: it is not clear what "the existence of independent writers" really mean with regard of the validity of FC. It is disputable. Therefor it belongs in the research/concerns section, not in the summary. The latter would suggest that the existence of those people would be kind of proof of the validity of the method (the Beukelman/Mirenda-fallacy) Allmuth 09:01, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately this phrase has been reedited into the summary again. In my opinion this is misleading. The question is not, if people can communicate while being facilitated. The question is, if they can better communicate while being facilitated than while not being facilitated. This has to been shown. For example: In one of the controlled studies a person is able to identify some numbers while facilitated. In the baseline (condition without facilitating) she is also able to do this. The proponents interpret this as authentic communication (yes) and as a proof for the validity of the method (no). Allmuth 09:10, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
71.135.102.35 (unsigned, but apparently posting from a different I.P address, above) indicated a desire to "call in a moderator" regarding a dispute with me over citations to the Facilitated Communication Institute at Syracuse University and other proponents of FC. I'm not sure which route of dispute resolution he proposes to follow, and I hope he clarifies this. A third party would be helpful, I think, and it's too bad Allmuth is away. As he said above, he and I seem to have difficulty communicating with each other (ironic, isn't it, given the topic).
IMO, the crux of the debate is reconciling the Wikipedia principles of verifiability and NPOV, particularly in the case of citing minority views. I think that the resolution is pointed to, if not stated outright, in the
Reliable Sources: Personal websites as primary sources. Proponents of minority views are often forced to self-publish.
The FCI is an institute at the School of Education at Syracuse University, and is the locus from which FC was popularized in the early 1990's. It was founded by Douglas Biklen, who learned about FC from Rosemary Crossley, a teacher at the DEAL Institute in Australia who is generally credited as being one of the people who independently "discovered" FC. (No one has disputed these claims in the article, but I notice that they are not sourced, so I will find and insert one in a few hours.) Along with DEAL, the FCI has continued to teach and advocate for FC, and provide fora for its proponents, even after most scientists concluded it was, more or less, not a valid technique. Thus, the FCI is unquestionably a major proponent of the minority view that FC is a valid form of AAC, and are therefore citable as a primary source for that viewpoint. As advocates of that view, they are in a position to verify that material on their website is an accurate portrayal of that view, and have every interest in doing so. That and their academic location make them verifiable as a primary source for their minority viewpoint. I believe the FCI, DEAL, Biklen and Crossley are also therefore verifiable as sources for identifying other prominent individual proponents of FC, including "self-advocates" (i.e., people with disabilities who, whether purportedly or genuinely, communicate via FC). Therefore, I believe that certain self-published materials of such authoritatively -cited-as-prominent proponents of FC, including their websites, are also citable as primary sources advocating for FC. (I am flexible as to which such cites make the cut, but I staunchly stand by the appropriateness of citing material published on the FCI as primary sources in the context discussed here.) However, I have not advocated that they are reliable or verifiable as a secondary source for objective claims about the efficacy of FC and the article does not cite them as such.
OK. I hope I've outlined my side of the argument clearly. I invite commentary and suggestions from my worthy opponent 71.135.102.35 and from others. May cool heads, not to mention a wise reconciliation of NPOV and verifiability, prevail. - Jim Butler 06:59, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
I cited the original Autism Network International newsletter in which the Frugone piece appeared and from which the online copy was scanned and formatted. Full disclosure: the site on which it's hosted is my own. This isn't "original research", just a copying of a printed document to the Web; it wasn't done at the time with citing on Wikipedia in mind, and simply reflects my ongoing interest in FC. My thoughts on the value of Frugone as a primary source are above under "Dispute over citations". - Jim Butler 10:23, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
I would like to change the structure of the article: Introduction: shorter and without naming single arguments from the debat (because now it contains two, the movement-disorder-hypothesis and the independent-writers-assumption. In my opinion both do not have their right place in the introduction because they are very controverse (minority opinions). I propose to locate this points in the research section. history: ok (maybe one should add information about the precursors of FC, Hansen etc.?) Concerns/research: I would like to rename this paragraph in "research" and then list the controversial issues (e.g. authorship, efficacy, movement disorder assumption, compatibility with current research in autism and literacy, gaze at the keyboard, and so on). Then present in each case (1) the assumption of the FC proponents (2) the position of the critics (3) the counter-argument of the proponents. This paragraph will include then the independent writer section as one of his sections. Then I would add a further paragraph "concerns", describing the concerns of the proponents if FC is not applied (e. g. refusing the possibility to communicate)and describing the concerns of the critics if FC is applied (e.g. attributing a false identitity and in such way impeding the communication) That's it. What do you think about this proposal? If I get positive feedback I will begin with the rewriting. I just see in the preview that I am not logged in. It is me, Allmuth. 84.175.58.17 07:11, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I just double-checked the Response to Frontline to which editor 71.135.102.35 objected on the grounds that it was unverifiable and self-published, and guess what, it's not on Chris Borthwick's site as I'd assumed -- it's actually on DEAL's site [5], which uses the same host (home.vicnet.net.au) as Borthwick does [6]. DEAL is of course where Rosemary Crossley developed FC (aka FCT) as it is now known and practiced around the world, so their site is about as verifiable and primary as a source can possibly be for FC advocacy. (Borthwick has collaborated with Crossley on FC and related issues, and is well-known as an FC proponent and is cited as such on the FCI's page [7], so his self-published stuff is also fine in that regard.) - Jim Butler 05:51, 22 March 2006 (UTC)