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Ethnic cleansing article. This is
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As I said in my edit summary wp:lede should be a summary of the article content. As it stands the discussion in the article about genocide and ethnic cleansing is lacking substance. The article current calls ethnic cleansing a category, then calls that category a continuum or sprectrum, and then adds one of the most worthless quotes on the encyclopedia to support it, which could be edited down to reveal its true lack of substance: "At one end it is virtually indistinguishable from forced emigration...while at the other it merges with deportation and genocide."
Yes, deportation and genocide, so we are crystal clear it is not the extermination and genocide your edit changed it to. Even if you add sources to the lede, the article needs to be improved before such a dramatic change can be made to the lede.
Ben Azura (
talk) 17:38, 16 January 2024 (UTC)reply
I am sorry but that only explains the problem with how the body (does not) work with the leas, but still doesnt explain what the "dramatic change" is.
BUT reading the lead and body again I think you mean to say that genocide is a legal term and that it is not clear if ethnic cleansing falls under the convention. If this is the argument, then I am fine with leaving it be, because in that case genocide is accordingly covered in the last sentence of the lead.
Nsae Comp (
talk) 03:58, 17 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Yes, I think this is correct.
Ben Azura (
talk) 04:03, 17 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Thanks taking out extermination here is the necessary step to make this clearer and leave its inclusion to the mention of genocide.
Nsae Comp (
talk) 04:30, 17 January 2024 (UTC)reply
In terms of the lead order, I think the causes should be placed earlier on and the legal classification at the end of the lead. (
t ·
c) buidhe 04:58, 17 January 2024 (UTC)reply
In defense of my reorder: I have moved the legal issue up because it is quite crucial for the description/definition,as above discussion would suggest. Therefore I tried to integrate it in my last edits into the first para.
If the reasons or the history should follow in which order I see both ways equal.
Nsae Comp (
talk) 05:08, 17 January 2024 (UTC)reply
The legal classification has nothing to do with the description of ethnic cleansing. Genocide is a legal classification and it encompasses multiple lines of attack against an ethnic group. We should be specific about which of these can also be a tactic of ethnic cleansing. (
t ·
c) buidhe 05:16, 17 January 2024 (UTC)reply
I am all for nuancing
/clarification. The int. law aspect as integrated now in the first para is about clarifying that there is disagreement and not clear def of the term, other than forced deportation.
Nsae Comp (
talk) 06:02, 17 January 2024 (UTC)reply
what do you think about my latest edit (see also the talk section below) (
t ·
c) buidhe 06:04, 17 January 2024 (UTC)reply
History for me just comes always first as in often the articles are structured like that.
Nsae Comp (
talk) 05:09, 17 January 2024 (UTC)reply
I think that removing it here is unwarranted; many sources include it as a way that ethnic cleansing is carried out, while others definitionally exclude it. Per NPOV both definitions must be mentioned.
"ethnic cleansing comprises not only ethnic expulsions and extermination during war"
[1]
"The term “ethnic cleansing” refers to deportations or killings conducted by a state, or a non-state actor that controls territory, that victimize a substantial segment of an ethnic group on the state’s or non-state actor’s territory (for more detail on this definition, see Bulutgil 2016). According to this definition, “genocide” is a subcategory of ethnic cleansing in which the victimization primarily takes the form of killings rather than deportations."
[2]
"On the one hand, ethnic cleansing is defined as the "system- atic and violent removal of undesired ethnic groups from a given territory."31 This definition is used to distinguish ethnic cleansing-as a form of violence-from gen- ocide by its intent to merely remove a group from an area rather than to exterminate the group altogether.32 On the other hand, there is the definition of ethnic cleansing that incorporates the possibility of group extermination-that is, the systematic forced removal, by any means necessary including extermination, of ethnic, racial, and/or religious groups from a given area.33 This second definition, which is widely accepted in the general public sphere,34 leads people to assume the term is inter- changeable with the term genocide."
[3]
Well I agree completely, and that was also why the above previous issue was raised. But I agreed on taking it out because it is better dealt by the statement about the genocide convention. Moving up the genocide convention was then to facilitate a more nuanced and complete perspective on what and especially how extermination and genocide are considered as related to ethnic cleansing. So yes I am all for expanding on that and there (where ever it ends up in the lead, though further up would have helped this issue, but ok so be it)! So expand on it at the convention para.
Nsae Comp (
talk) 06:37, 17 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Chill: sorry for my last edit I seem to have not seen the insertion of mass killing. Thanks! For me that seems sufficient.
Nsae Comp (
talk) 07:05, 17 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Agreed, the current version with Buidhe's changes including mass killing in the lede doesnt present major NPOV concerns. The term "extermination" is non-controversial genocide under the Genocide Convention and the euphemistic use of "ethnic cleansing" has fallen out of favor. I dont think we do NPOV any justice by presenting it uncritically as a synonym for genocide. Maybe we can expand on the article content for this about which
Nsae Comp has already made some helpful edits.
Ben Azura (
talk) 07:21, 17 January 2024 (UTC)reply
The description of the violent expulsion of Palestinians to make way for the new state of Israel in 1948 (the
Nakba) as ethnic cleansing is widely accepted by most historians.[1] May we please add one of these images to this article? It would serve a purpose not only in demonstrating ethnic cleansing, but also in describing the
historiography, why it can be disputed by some historians outside the fringe, etc.
222.152.25.14 (
talk) 21:38, 1 February 2024 (UTC)reply
References
^Sabbagh-Khoury 2023, pp. 30, 65, 71, 81, 182, 193–194 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFSabbagh-Khoury2023 (
help);
Abu-Laban & Bakan 2022, p. 511 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFAbu-LabanBakan2022 (
help);
Manna 2022 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFManna2022 (
help);
Pappe 2022, pp. 33, 120–122, 126–132, 137, 239 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFPappe2022 (
help);
Hasian Jr. 2020, pp. 77–109 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFHasian_Jr.2020 (
help);
Khalidi 2020, pp. 12, 73, 76, 231 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFKhalidi2020 (
help);
Slater 2020, pp. 81–85 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFSlater2020 (
help);
Shenhav 2019, pp. 49–50, 54, and 61 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFShenhav2019 (
help);
Bashir & Goldberg 2018, pp. 20 and 32 n.2 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFBashirGoldberg2018 (
help);
Confino 2018, p. 138 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFConfino2018 (
help);
Masalha 2018, pp. 44, 52–54, 64, 319, 324, 376, 383 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFMasalha2018 (
help);
Nashef 2018, pp. 5–6, 52, 76 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFNashef2018 (
help);
Auron 2017 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFAuron2017 (
help);
Rouhana & Sabbagh-Khoury 2017, p. 393 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFRouhanaSabbagh-Khoury2017 (
help);
Al-Hardan 2016, pp. 47–48 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFAl-Hardan2016 (
help);
Natour 2016, p. 82 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFNatour2016 (
help);
Rashed, Short & Docker 2014, pp. 3–4, 8–18 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFRashedShortDocker2014 (
help);
Masalha 2012 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFMasalha2012 (
help);
Wolfe 2012, pp. 153–154, 160–161 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFWolfe2012 (
help);
Khoury 2012, pp. 258, 263–265 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFKhoury2012 (
help);
Knopf-Newman 2011, pp. 4–5, 25–32, 109, 180–182 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFKnopf-Newman2011 (
help);
Lentin 2010, ch. 2 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFLentin2010 (
help);
Milshtein 2009, p. 50 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFMilshtein2009 (
help);
Ram 2009, p. 388 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFRam2009 (
help);
Shlaim 2009, pp. 55, 288 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFShlaim2009 (
help);
Esmeir 2007, pp. 249–250 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFEsmeir2007 (
help);
Sa'di 2007, pp. 291–293, 298, 308 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFSa'di2007 (
help);
Pappe 2006 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFPappe2006 (
help);
Schulz 2003, pp. 24, 31–32 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFSchulz2003 (
help)
The Alhambra Decree was "an early example of ethnic cleansing"
The article says that the The Alhambra Decree was "an early example of ethnic cleansing."
While I personally believe it was ethnic cleansing, do we have reputable sources that state this? The fact that Jews were allowed to convert and stay also challenges traditional notions of "ethnic" cleansing, and suggests that religion was the core focal point.
To be clear, I am not defending what the Spanish did (it was despicable obviously), but it seems like this characterization might be original synthesis.
The following articles on the expulsion and pogroms of Jews from Spain do not even have the phrase "ethnic cleansing" even once:
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Ethnic cleansing article. This is
not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Discrimination, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Discrimination on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DiscriminationWikipedia:WikiProject DiscriminationTemplate:WikiProject DiscriminationDiscrimination articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Human rights, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Human rights on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Human rightsWikipedia:WikiProject Human rightsTemplate:WikiProject Human rightsHuman rights articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Death, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Death on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DeathWikipedia:WikiProject DeathTemplate:WikiProject DeathDeath articles
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this article. Parts of this article relate to the
Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing the parts of the page related to the contentious topic:
You must be logged-in and
extended-confirmed to edit or discuss this topic on any page (except for
making edit requests, provided they are not disruptive)
You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on any edits related to this topic
If it is unclear which parts of the page are related to this contentious topic, the content in question should be marked within the wiki text by an invisible comment. If no comment is present, please ask an administrator for assistance. If in doubt it is better to assume that the content is covered.
Further information
The exceptions to the extended confirmed restriction are:
Non-extended-confirmed editors may use the "Talk:" namespace only to
make edit requests related to articles within the topic area, provided they are not disruptive.
Non-extended-confirmed editors may not create new articles, but administrators may exercise discretion when deciding how to enforce this remedy on article creations. Deletion of new articles created by non-extended-confirmed editors is permitted but not required.
With respect to the WP:1RR restriction:
Clear vandalism of whatever origin may be reverted without restriction. Also, reverts made solely to enforce the extended confirmed restriction are not considered edit warring.
Editors who violate this restriction may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offence.
As I said in my edit summary wp:lede should be a summary of the article content. As it stands the discussion in the article about genocide and ethnic cleansing is lacking substance. The article current calls ethnic cleansing a category, then calls that category a continuum or sprectrum, and then adds one of the most worthless quotes on the encyclopedia to support it, which could be edited down to reveal its true lack of substance: "At one end it is virtually indistinguishable from forced emigration...while at the other it merges with deportation and genocide."
Yes, deportation and genocide, so we are crystal clear it is not the extermination and genocide your edit changed it to. Even if you add sources to the lede, the article needs to be improved before such a dramatic change can be made to the lede.
Ben Azura (
talk) 17:38, 16 January 2024 (UTC)reply
I am sorry but that only explains the problem with how the body (does not) work with the leas, but still doesnt explain what the "dramatic change" is.
BUT reading the lead and body again I think you mean to say that genocide is a legal term and that it is not clear if ethnic cleansing falls under the convention. If this is the argument, then I am fine with leaving it be, because in that case genocide is accordingly covered in the last sentence of the lead.
Nsae Comp (
talk) 03:58, 17 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Yes, I think this is correct.
Ben Azura (
talk) 04:03, 17 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Thanks taking out extermination here is the necessary step to make this clearer and leave its inclusion to the mention of genocide.
Nsae Comp (
talk) 04:30, 17 January 2024 (UTC)reply
In terms of the lead order, I think the causes should be placed earlier on and the legal classification at the end of the lead. (
t ·
c) buidhe 04:58, 17 January 2024 (UTC)reply
In defense of my reorder: I have moved the legal issue up because it is quite crucial for the description/definition,as above discussion would suggest. Therefore I tried to integrate it in my last edits into the first para.
If the reasons or the history should follow in which order I see both ways equal.
Nsae Comp (
talk) 05:08, 17 January 2024 (UTC)reply
The legal classification has nothing to do with the description of ethnic cleansing. Genocide is a legal classification and it encompasses multiple lines of attack against an ethnic group. We should be specific about which of these can also be a tactic of ethnic cleansing. (
t ·
c) buidhe 05:16, 17 January 2024 (UTC)reply
I am all for nuancing
/clarification. The int. law aspect as integrated now in the first para is about clarifying that there is disagreement and not clear def of the term, other than forced deportation.
Nsae Comp (
talk) 06:02, 17 January 2024 (UTC)reply
what do you think about my latest edit (see also the talk section below) (
t ·
c) buidhe 06:04, 17 January 2024 (UTC)reply
History for me just comes always first as in often the articles are structured like that.
Nsae Comp (
talk) 05:09, 17 January 2024 (UTC)reply
I think that removing it here is unwarranted; many sources include it as a way that ethnic cleansing is carried out, while others definitionally exclude it. Per NPOV both definitions must be mentioned.
"ethnic cleansing comprises not only ethnic expulsions and extermination during war"
[1]
"The term “ethnic cleansing” refers to deportations or killings conducted by a state, or a non-state actor that controls territory, that victimize a substantial segment of an ethnic group on the state’s or non-state actor’s territory (for more detail on this definition, see Bulutgil 2016). According to this definition, “genocide” is a subcategory of ethnic cleansing in which the victimization primarily takes the form of killings rather than deportations."
[2]
"On the one hand, ethnic cleansing is defined as the "system- atic and violent removal of undesired ethnic groups from a given territory."31 This definition is used to distinguish ethnic cleansing-as a form of violence-from gen- ocide by its intent to merely remove a group from an area rather than to exterminate the group altogether.32 On the other hand, there is the definition of ethnic cleansing that incorporates the possibility of group extermination-that is, the systematic forced removal, by any means necessary including extermination, of ethnic, racial, and/or religious groups from a given area.33 This second definition, which is widely accepted in the general public sphere,34 leads people to assume the term is inter- changeable with the term genocide."
[3]
Well I agree completely, and that was also why the above previous issue was raised. But I agreed on taking it out because it is better dealt by the statement about the genocide convention. Moving up the genocide convention was then to facilitate a more nuanced and complete perspective on what and especially how extermination and genocide are considered as related to ethnic cleansing. So yes I am all for expanding on that and there (where ever it ends up in the lead, though further up would have helped this issue, but ok so be it)! So expand on it at the convention para.
Nsae Comp (
talk) 06:37, 17 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Chill: sorry for my last edit I seem to have not seen the insertion of mass killing. Thanks! For me that seems sufficient.
Nsae Comp (
talk) 07:05, 17 January 2024 (UTC)reply
Agreed, the current version with Buidhe's changes including mass killing in the lede doesnt present major NPOV concerns. The term "extermination" is non-controversial genocide under the Genocide Convention and the euphemistic use of "ethnic cleansing" has fallen out of favor. I dont think we do NPOV any justice by presenting it uncritically as a synonym for genocide. Maybe we can expand on the article content for this about which
Nsae Comp has already made some helpful edits.
Ben Azura (
talk) 07:21, 17 January 2024 (UTC)reply
The description of the violent expulsion of Palestinians to make way for the new state of Israel in 1948 (the
Nakba) as ethnic cleansing is widely accepted by most historians.[1] May we please add one of these images to this article? It would serve a purpose not only in demonstrating ethnic cleansing, but also in describing the
historiography, why it can be disputed by some historians outside the fringe, etc.
222.152.25.14 (
talk) 21:38, 1 February 2024 (UTC)reply
References
^Sabbagh-Khoury 2023, pp. 30, 65, 71, 81, 182, 193–194 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFSabbagh-Khoury2023 (
help);
Abu-Laban & Bakan 2022, p. 511 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFAbu-LabanBakan2022 (
help);
Manna 2022 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFManna2022 (
help);
Pappe 2022, pp. 33, 120–122, 126–132, 137, 239 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFPappe2022 (
help);
Hasian Jr. 2020, pp. 77–109 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFHasian_Jr.2020 (
help);
Khalidi 2020, pp. 12, 73, 76, 231 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFKhalidi2020 (
help);
Slater 2020, pp. 81–85 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFSlater2020 (
help);
Shenhav 2019, pp. 49–50, 54, and 61 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFShenhav2019 (
help);
Bashir & Goldberg 2018, pp. 20 and 32 n.2 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFBashirGoldberg2018 (
help);
Confino 2018, p. 138 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFConfino2018 (
help);
Masalha 2018, pp. 44, 52–54, 64, 319, 324, 376, 383 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFMasalha2018 (
help);
Nashef 2018, pp. 5–6, 52, 76 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFNashef2018 (
help);
Auron 2017 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFAuron2017 (
help);
Rouhana & Sabbagh-Khoury 2017, p. 393 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFRouhanaSabbagh-Khoury2017 (
help);
Al-Hardan 2016, pp. 47–48 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFAl-Hardan2016 (
help);
Natour 2016, p. 82 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFNatour2016 (
help);
Rashed, Short & Docker 2014, pp. 3–4, 8–18 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFRashedShortDocker2014 (
help);
Masalha 2012 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFMasalha2012 (
help);
Wolfe 2012, pp. 153–154, 160–161 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFWolfe2012 (
help);
Khoury 2012, pp. 258, 263–265 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFKhoury2012 (
help);
Knopf-Newman 2011, pp. 4–5, 25–32, 109, 180–182 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFKnopf-Newman2011 (
help);
Lentin 2010, ch. 2 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFLentin2010 (
help);
Milshtein 2009, p. 50 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFMilshtein2009 (
help);
Ram 2009, p. 388 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFRam2009 (
help);
Shlaim 2009, pp. 55, 288 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFShlaim2009 (
help);
Esmeir 2007, pp. 249–250 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFEsmeir2007 (
help);
Sa'di 2007, pp. 291–293, 298, 308 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFSa'di2007 (
help);
Pappe 2006 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFPappe2006 (
help);
Schulz 2003, pp. 24, 31–32 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFSchulz2003 (
help)
The Alhambra Decree was "an early example of ethnic cleansing"
The article says that the The Alhambra Decree was "an early example of ethnic cleansing."
While I personally believe it was ethnic cleansing, do we have reputable sources that state this? The fact that Jews were allowed to convert and stay also challenges traditional notions of "ethnic" cleansing, and suggests that religion was the core focal point.
To be clear, I am not defending what the Spanish did (it was despicable obviously), but it seems like this characterization might be original synthesis.
The following articles on the expulsion and pogroms of Jews from Spain do not even have the phrase "ethnic cleansing" even once: