This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 |
Deamonpen, if you are referring to the "I shot the colonel" thread ( :-) ), then it was not me, as I did not participate in the discussion.
Regarding relationships with Arabs, that's nothing surprising as it was the official Nazi policy to maintain good relationships with the Arab population as potential allies in the expected fight against the Jews in Palestine. I can look it up in sources if needed. So I don't think this information in the article is particularly needed, but I don't feel strongly about it.
Here's the material in question, for the reference of other editors:
References
K.e.coffman ( talk) 07:35, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
I suggest you to read The Rommel Papers and decide that whether what Rommel wrote there was enough to create some sort of bad legend about the Italians, because I have the feeling you haven't read it yet - I apologize if this is not the case. Sure, here and there, when Italians shot and missed him form fifty yards (because they mistook him for the enemy - this he did not blame them), he made a sly half angry half amused comment about Italian marksmanship. And again, it was about officers who let soldiers run into dangers while sitting comfortably behind. But he gradually developed natural feelings for the lower ranks whom he called good soldiers, and sympathy for Mussolini whom he respected. Maybe his view was one-sided and he did not see his own problems, maybe sometimes he thought that he was still at Caporetto fighting the Italians there, but there had to be a kernel of truth about Italians' earlier weak performance (no matter what the reason) if Mussolini had to apologize to Hitler about it, and about officers abandoning soldiers if "not a few Italians" criticized [ [1]] Bastico and others for letting Rommel do the job. Certainly the Allied soldiers at the time already knew that Rommel complained much about his Italian allies, and it was a joke they could share with him. All in all, in the Rommel's Papers, when he had become calmer, he was certainly nicer to the Italians than in the vicious comments Mellenthin and modern authors said he said to the Italians' faces, right after any disaster happened. Certainly much nicer than his attitude towards his German High Command, Himmler, Bormann...etc
Again I suggest that if it was about articles/passages that rate Italian fighting performance, then we should use multiple sources, definitely not just Rommel, preferably Italian sources if available. But if it is about Rommel's opinion on Italians in a Rommel article, we might quote Rommel himself before all historians.
As for him self-editing, the question is that whether he had the time and the capability to do so. He was a busy commander who hastily made some notes each morning before going to battle, usually to serve an immediate audience - his wife. Let's say if on day 29 he realized that he should have not written something he wrote on day 20, could he have edited the whole things to make it look consistent, rewrite whole pages (before erasing would look suspicious - anyway could he have predicted that they would fall into the hands of former opponents?)..etc like people do with their post war memoirs? Liddel Hart was certainly pro-Rommel, however does he and others have a reputation (other than making positive comments on Rommel's writings) for radically altering the texts Rommel wrote? Do recent historians complain about Rommel family preventing them from approaching the original writings or do they find signs of Liddel Hart, Bayerlein or Manfred Rommel faking documents? And can you point me to a more reliable version of Rommel's writings, I would be glad to know. Like you, I have the opinion that generally Liddel Hart and others accepted what Rommel wrote. Because they believed he made a good enough case for himself. Deamonpen ( talk) 02:56, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
This inserted a new citation among the text already cited. So I restored prior version, by appending the new content to the end of the paragraph.
Compare:
With the edit:
References
Restored version:
References
Please let me know if there are any questions. K.e.coffman ( talk) 08:19, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
So I restore my version too. I don't think any word on what Auchinleck had in mind is needed either - let's allow the wiki reader to decide. Deamonpen ( talk) 01:24, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
Deamonpen ( talk) 06:56, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
The article states that "During Rommel's time in France, Hitler ordered him to deport the country's Jewish population; Rommel disobeyed". This is based on dubious source that is neither a historian nor scholarly book, it's a biography by a filmaker Benjamin Patton along with letters from his father. According to /info/en/?search=The_Holocaust_in_France article the deportations of French Jews happened in March 1942.Here at Yad Vashem site we can learn that [2] they happened mainly in July. Nowhere is Rommel mentioned. Such deportations and actions were organized mainly by Einsatzgruppen and SS during WW2(although with Wehrmacht's assistance), and it seems very unlikely that deportation of over 150,000 French Jews would be assigned to Rommel and his division. This seems sensationalist and very poorly sourced. If there are no objections I will remove the dubious source.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 09:05, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
Except in one instance, the information in this section is a history of the Rommel's division and the execution of POWs. Do any of the secondary sources discuss how Rommel was involved in these activities? I'd suggest those parts are are not are not notable enough in relation to Rommel to take us such a large section in this article. Thoughts? --John ( User:Jwy/ talk) 03:03, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
"French civilians and Italian prisoners of war held by the Germans were forced by officials under the Vichy government[334] , the Todt Organization and the SS forces[335] to work on building some of the defences Rommel ordered constructed, although they got basic wages and the conditions were "not terrible".[336][334]"
So what does author consider the conditions? Bad? Very Bad? Or just that they weren't terrible because the workers weren't short randomly but only when they wanted to be free and disobeyed?
This is really a shining example of a very distorted view in these kinds of topics. At the end of the day these were people whose lives depended on whim of the German overseeing them and were essentially slaves that could be shot at any time. I will remove this sentence unless there any reasonable objections. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 14:35, 20 June 2016 (UTC) That
So the French civilians's words are distorted but your views based on... nothing are not.
Many thousands of French men were forced to work on the Atlantic Wall as part of an arrangement between the Vichy government and the Albert Speer’s Organisation Todt.
“There was no choice about it. We had to go. Naturally we weren’t enthusiastic, but it is not as if we had any choice. The conditions were not terrible. We weren’t beaten or anything and we got a basic wage. At the start we could go home on Sundays, but after Stalingrad they put up barbed wire and we were stuck inside the work camp. Of course we knew we were building defences for the Germans, and it felt bad. I remember at the end of the war, my two brothers came home. One had been a prisoner, the other a deportee. I felt so bad I did not want to go to the party celebrating their return. But I do think the wall should be preserved now. It is important to remember what happened – the ignominy of it all, the cataclysm that we had to endure.” (Rene-Georges Lubat) Deamonpen ( talk) 14:43, 20 June 2016 (UTC) And? Have you ever heard of Stockholm Syndrome? Does the single quote from single person change the fact that these were slaves that Germans could kill at any time?-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 14:52, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
(I would say Mengele's victims were, though. But even then they retained the ability to recognize the situation as terrible)
Deamonpen ( talk) 15:43, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
In this edit on 17th June [3] user Deamonpen edited the article adding a concealed link to a Holocaust Denial website as source of claim for legality of Rommel's execution of prisoner. The link is concealed within the text(the main text in Wikipedia article won't show where it actually goes, the hyperlink does show it), and goes to infamous Adelaide Institute The Adelaide Institute was formed in 1995 from the former Truth Mission that was established in 1994 by convicted Holocaust denier Gerald Fredrick Töben. The Adelaide Institute is a Holocaust denial group[1] in Australia and is considered to be anti-Semitic by the Australian government's human rights commission.[2]
I will proceed with removal of this source from the article.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 20:45, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
I post this one again because obviously some people don't understand these linguistic subtleties, or are deliberately so, in order to say that if a historian uses "Rommel Myth," what he means is that post-war praises MUST be lies or misconceptions. Actually it's a direct translation of the German "Mythos Rommel". But Mythos Rommel as being used by German authors refers to something mostly neutral, like "the Enigma of Rommel" or "The Rommel Mystery" or even "the Mythology of Rommel", for example here Peter Lieb (one of the authors listed as if he's one who's trying to debunk "the Rommel myth") states that he "is and remains Mythos".
The Rommel Myth theory has also come to the stage when it faces revisionism of itself. For example, basically Maurice Remy(who's also listed as if he belonged to the myth camp, and even more curiously, a French when actually he's a German )argues (with much success) that Rommel was both a Nazi and a hero who fought Hitler: »War er [ Rommel ] ein überzeugter Nationalsozialist, den man verachten muss, oder ein Held des Widerstandes gegen Hitler?«, stellt sich bei genauer Kenntnisnahme der Geschichte so gar nicht. Die Antwort ist nämlich ebenso einfach wie überraschend: Rommel war beides. But even though "his heart did belong to Hitler, it's all the more remarkable that he always found the strength needed to fight against him whenever his conscience required so ... Unwilling and probably without ever realizing it, he was part of a murderous system... but no individual sin." His famous book is certainly the one that is named Mythos Rommel.
Cornelia Hecht, who staged and wrote her own Mythos Rommel (hugely successful exhibition, and booklet) also sees him and his Mythos in an ambivalent light, rather than outright negative or positive: Von Rommel könne man „viel über Ambivalenz lernen“, so die Stuttgarter Landeshistorikerin Dr. Cornelia Hecht.
This revisionism vs revisionism trench was the reason Der Spiegel had to change its general tone towards Rommel, beginning with this (one of the two authors was also the author of the "New Research taints image of Rommel." cited by this wiki page, written some years before this more balanced one). Here, the message is same with the two previously mentioned authors': the man was complicated, vainglorious, seduced by Hitler, yet [the Mythos of] his heroic battles remain nonetheless, like Hitler had predicted. Deamonpen ( talk) 15:32, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
My immediate target audience is MyMoloboaccount who kept repeating things like "Rommel myth statements" "this is faboyism and Rommel Myth" which seems to suggest that in the way he sees it, Rommel Myth = Lies about Rommel, or at least something very negative. Admittedly he's probably not the first one I've seen doing so. Probably because in the modern, global version of English, "X Myth" usually indicates something that needs to be "debunked". Obviously that's not the case with Mythos Rommel in previously mentioned German historians' views. Yes I know we don't discuss him here (although I agree that if some authors write in a way possibly unclear to some of the audience due to multiple reasons, explaining a bit does no harm), I just tried to be patient with MyMoloboaccount as he suggested that authors who sounded biased/senseless to his ears should be deleted. However I promise that next time I will try to be short. My general view is that if wiki readers see "Rommel myth" and think "Lies about Rommel", it's our failure in conveying the message(s), so please be careful. Also if you haven't noticed it yet, it was not me who started "Rommel Myth sentences not adding anything to the article" section or the one before it. If mods see that these explanations are not necessary, feel free to remove. Deamonpen ( talk) 18:37, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
Did we really needed to read a long Original Research about how Rommel was great, Hitler's predictions are coming true and historians are forced to admit Rommel is a hero? In earnest this long essay should be deleted from the talk page....-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 19:54, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
Deamonpen ( talk) 05:04, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
I noticed two sentences that are just repeat of previous sentences in the article and don't add anything of substance. "Other authors argue that generosity to opponents was a natural trait of the man, like Claus Telp who states that Rommel by nature was chivalrous and not prone to order needless violence,[308] or Robert Forczyk who considers Rommel a true great captain with chivalry." First of all we can read that Rommel was "chivalrous" in several other locations of the article including couple of sentences above this one. Another one is not really needed. Second of all what does "Rommel was by nature chivalrous" mean at all? That the author believes some men are by nature more noble than others? Then we have another Rommel Myth claim about him not prone to needless violence although he is well known to be enthusiastic in support of invasion of Poland and in charge of executing a defenseless prisoner. The sentence about Rommel being " true great captain with chivalry" what does it actually add to the article? We already have section on propaganda and how people idolize Rommel, we don't really need more examples of that. The sentence doesn't really add any facts or information that is of any importance. The above sentences are just pointless clutter and really should be removed. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 15:06, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
-We also have plenty of sentences saying that modern authors don't agree with post-war ones who supposedly lie or are misguided about his chivalrous image. It's not about some misguided 'people' who lack information, it's historians who as far as I know are not considered unorthodox, having ulterior motives... (Not that I say we should totally exclude such authors, because sometimes unpopular people bring out right answers. It's just if we reference them we should make some kind of note).
Many authors also explain him as supporting invasion of Poland because: -Misguided beliefs in Hitler's previous bloodless expansion - Belief in German population in Poland needing protection (because they were really suppressed there) - Invasions before WW2 were not something *that* illegal. *Noble" countries like the Allied countries invaded Asia and Africa all the time - Rommel's personal idol Napoleon, by defeating German princes, helped to unite Germany and weakening the class system, thus an example of conquerors who benefited native populations. - They didn't have nukes yet so the image of war was not as terrible as today.
Also, (almost) Immediately in front of these two sentences is a sentence who mentions that he did what he did because he tried to conceal Nazi crimes and not out of noble motives, so these two sentences represent opinions that argue against that theory.
What those authors mean by chivalry in nature, as I see it, is that his conduct was not about some materialized, "realistic" benefits but out of his natural inclinations. Like you save a drowning person because you see one, you don't even think, and that's that. And if you read Forczyk, he's not even Rommel's fan. He's Model's fan through and through. I don't know about the other.
Whether shooting that defenseless prisoner was necessary/legal or not you can read the two articles quoted in "Executions of prisoners" section. Some will also argue that as a commander, he needed time, and dealing with a prisoner who refused to obey three times took too much precious time - if he had allowed this, other prisoners might imitate knowing that he was soft and then his army would not be able to advance any more. In some countries in the West today, even during times of peace, police would shoot if you don't obey them after a certain level of warning, whether you have weapons or not. So if you see that as unnecessary violence, that's still your personal opinion. Telp certainly also knows that case - he says Rommel "was forced" to shoot that prisoner.
Deamonpen ( talk) 15:32, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
Belief in German population in Poland needing protection (because they were really suppressed there) What are you actually saying ? You realize that is a claim made by Nazi propaganda to justify genocidal war against Poles ?
Invasions before WW2 were not something *that* illegal. Invasion of Poland was illegal and a war crime(interestingly Rommel was complicit in its planning and thus would be sentenced as war criminal if he managed to survive), for which Nazis like Rommel were sentenced in Nuremberg Trials. Are you claiming that Invasion of Poland was legal? On what basis and what sources are you using.
In some countries in the West today, even during times of peace, police would shoot if you don't obey them after a certain level of warning, whether you have weapons or no You just compared victims of Nazi war and executions to criminals shot by police. Your personal views here are not relevant to the fact that the sentences about supposed Rommel being chivalrous are completely out of place, unnecessary, repeat Rommel Mythos and go against actual events.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 19:51, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
- /info/en/?search=Polish_Corridor It was a legitimate German concerns, however Hitler certainly overstepped his boundaries (which R. could not predict). -I will not comment further on how colonial powers judged certain invasions illegal, and others not. But no he did not join the planning, writing to Lucie on August 31 1939 about how they will enjoy the rest of their life without war. Remy pg 42. -Whether the officer was a "victim" or not is a debatable matter. And many people who are shot by police for disobeying haven't been put in a trial yet, you can't call all of them criminals. Lsst time I replied to talks that should have been put in a forums though
Deamonpen ( talk) 05:26, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
As a follow up to the above discussion, I'd suggest removing a statement from a veteran:
References
{{
cite news}}
: |issue=
has extra text (
help)CS1 maint: extra punctuation (
link) CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)
The article appropriately cites notable historians and authors, and introducing an opinion of an essentially lay person appears to give this statement undue weight. Weston is not a historian or an expert on the law of war. The Quadrant (magazine) article states that it's a "literary and cultural journal"; so it does not appear to be a specialist publication that's appropriate in citing for this controversial issue. Would like to hear feedback from others. K.e.coffman ( talk) 05:43, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
Again, the standard of wiki allows the listing of such magazines like Dailymail as sources, which if listed as a Reference by a serious historian will be considered ridiculous. They will not list verified authors' sayings in magazines either, as we do here. A letter is at least better. And he is a verified individual. Why the hell is an author listed by a serious historian, one apparently living at least into the 2000s and still joining multiple activities in his country, including giving interviews through the Internet, considered unverified? And you haven't published a scientific paper, have you? It's not about "letters." Basically the editors accept you to be who you introduce yourself to be, and expect the real individual to speak if there was any falsification. By this standard many other authors will be considered unverified.
And here is your bias. I notice you say nothing about Bewley's letter (because it's also a letter). He is not a source listed by any historian either (as far as I can search for, please correct me if I'm wrong).
Deamonpen ( talk) 00:29, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
Is this perhaps a WP:Overcite, that is are six citations needed for this statement?
References
I think that Misch and Young can be dispensed with as dated, possibly also Shirer. I suggest keeping Reuth, since this was the source I used, and perhaps retaining Hansen and / or Marshall? K.e.coffman ( talk) 04:41, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
Deamonpen ( talk) 07:35, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
Commenting:
References
{{
cite book}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
This appears to be undue weight, as equally as many describe Rommel's incapacitation as immaterial to the success or failure of the bomb plot. For example, Norman J. Goda states, in discussing the Hitler oath: "... There were also field marshals such as Rommel and Kluge who despite the oath were willing to have others shove Hitler to the side and act accordingly after the fact". K.e.coffman ( talk) 04:32, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
Deamonpen ( talk) 07:44, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
I had previously started a discussion on this topic, suggesting the section be removed, to which there was no objection Talk:Erwin_Rommel/Archive_5#Wehrmachtbericht_references. I'm replicating it here to see if a consensus can be achieved. Original post:
Also compare to an article on another Field Marshal, Erich von Manstein, which is a GA article:
It does not contain the Wehmachtbericht wording, apart from a reference to Manstein's being mentioned in the report.
K.e.coffman ( talk) 19:37, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
I went through the exercise of replacing the Wehrmachtbericht transcripts with appropriate prose and / or citations on several artcles, and I can say I feel more convinced that they add zero value to the encyclopedia. I never used to read them, because they just looked a block of text to me. When I first encountered these sections on WWII articles, I was confused mostly about two things: (1) what this was in the first place; and (2) why they took up so much real estate, and had their own prominent section. (That's why I rewrote the linked article).
Here are some examples of the reports. In some cases, they simply contain no information, as in the first bullet below. Overall, this exercise has left me mildly disturbed, as they ooze the "Nazi propaganda newsreel" vibe (emphasis mine):
There's been so much new WWII historiography in the past twenty years. So, if there was any historical value in the transcripts, I'm sure there would have been published research on them. In the same vein, besides the Uziel, Daniel (2008). The Propaganda Warriors: The Wehrmacht and the Consolidation of the German Home Front. souce, I don't recall seeing anything else.
in short, such material isn't useful to readers (especially as if a mention in this broadcast was considered a noteworthy honour, it can be covered just as well without the transcript), and is additionally highly problematic as it's unreliable Nazi propaganda. Articles on Allied military units and individuals don't include the text of mentions in dispatches or communiques, and rightly so.
In a few cases where I tried to incorporate the transcript into the prose, it came out looking sort of hokey, and I'm not sure what value it adds; see: Michael Wittmann#Awards. I'm more inclined to follow Diannaa's example: step2 and step 2. This leaves simple text, allowing the readers to click on the link to find out more:
If someone is willing to do the work and provide citations, I'd be all for it. But I'd rather not have to read more of the reports. We can see how the consensus continues to develop. K.e.coffman ( talk) 01:13, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
Text removed, for reference:
K.e.coffman ( talk) 05:08, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
I totally don't want to talk about this thing again. However, I still find "... with Rommel being directly involved..." totally unacceptable. If even Caddick Adams who finds the execution illegal does not use this as a piece of evidence to link it to, or prove other alledged incidents regarding the 7th - and I can say this is the approach of at least the majority of authors (whatever they think about Rommel's order), and even if both had been crimes on Rommel's part and the 7th's part, the circumstances and motivations were totally different. The single execution (if we considered it a crime) could've happened anywhere, in a moment the commander was irritated by at least a partly justified reason, a la a crime of passion. Deliberate, prepared massacre is another problem. Let alone we already have the repeated mention of such massacres in the same section (second paragraph). Deamonpen ( talk) 17:38, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
It's true to different level but I don't think we should insert the phrase. Just let the readers themselves investigate the situation - it was much more complicated than that these three hated Rommel or smth.
The personal feuding factor was only really important in Heinrich Kirchheim's case (who Rommel dismissed and called a coward. Although apparently on the side of Rommel, he did not keep personal grudge nor think much about it, considering he allowed Kirchheim' wife free access to his own family shortly before his death - a woman on the right was Hildegard Kirchheim, according to Marshall, p119)
The other two were more like they had known about the plot beforehand (at least Rundstedt, and I find an author who states the same ab Guderian), but they ducked and waited, and when they saw that Hitler had won, they came out and "surrendered" to him.
At the beginning, the army generally supported Hitler but was lukewarm at best to the Nazi party. Thus the Nazis needed a general or some generals to invigorate the army with the Nazi ideology and the will to fight. They used Rommel for that. But turned out, he also liked Hitler but disliked the party, and he just talked whatever he wanted whether it corresponded with the Nazi ideals or not. They also used Dietrich, Dietl (party members), Model but they were much less efficient because they were much less popular. When R. was "weakened", Hitler looked to Manstein for replacement but, in Hitler's eyes, the guy had "no world view, no character"
After the July plot, there was a void that threatened to swallow the whole regime. Hitler filled that void by Rundstedt and Guderian. They presided over the court martial, issued orders that truly nazified the armed forces, read the oration that delared Rommel had died a loyal Nazi soldier at his funeral...etc In short they helped Hitler to consolidate the Wehrmacht politically, thus his comment that Rundstedt did the regime a great service after the plot.
There was great reluctance on Rundstedt's part - he could not bear to go to the cremation. Even modern authors like Remy (p.229) and Mitcham felt that his affection for R., faint as it was, was genuine. Guderian probably had professional envy, and he was behind Schweppenburg in Normandy, but nothing suggests it went that bad (that he desired to kill R.). In fact von Luck's memoirs recounted a secret meeting between Guderian and Rommel at the Four Seasons Hotel, of which unfortunately we don't know the true content.
In short this was about politics rather than personal feuding, and Hitler chose Rundstedt and Guderian because they were senior officers who were feared and respected by others. And we should encourage readers to look at the bigger picture. Black summarized the thing better: After the unsuccessful July bomb plot of 1944, the bulk of the German military command rallied to Hitler, while Nazification was pushed by Guderian, the new Chief of the General Staff Deamonpen ( talk) 05:12, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for any help / opinions. Carlotm ( talk) 07:21, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
Deamonpen ( talk) 08:05, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
Deamonpen, with a search per last name I found following unused items (E&OE):
There are also two short notes without their full references (typos?): Friedmann 2012; Remy 2015.
For the other questions I would like to read some more comments. Thanks. Carlotm ( talk) 09:15, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
Remy - yes, typo, 2002. Deamonpen ( talk) 09:51, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
Yes, I did not notice that. Just fixed Friedmann. Deamonpen ( talk) 03:45, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
It sounds very unlikely that Rommel was trying to reduce military training if he, by all accounts including that of Jodl who stood on his side in this case, was trying to convert the Hitlerjudgend into a military organization under the Army's management and not the party's. It seems Butler and Mitcham are both influenced by Fraser in this case but i cannot remember what Fraser says. It looks much more likely that, as reported by other authors, he protested against overt ideology training, argued for sport and character training, and agreed with military training which should be provided by professionals like him rather than amateurs like Schirach. Remy suggests that he was very much willing to find chances to tell the story of how he stormed the Matajur to pretty much anyone in the hitlerjugend, including Schirach's wife (she had accidently dropped the keyword "Mountain"; same story would later be told repeatedly to Hitler, Goebbels and Ruge no matter how depressed he became). Deamonpen ( talk) 04:59, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
This section has some tangled sentence structures and disconcerting grammatical problems. Someone who understands how to write AND knows the subject should do some work on it. Thanks 124.148.24.180 ( talk) 01:31, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
Following is inaccurate:
"Numerous streets in Germany, especially in his home state of Baden-Württemberg, are named in his honour, including the street where his last home was located"
His last home is accessible from Bahnhofstraße, Herrlingen, and now houses a small museum (phone ahead to get the key). Postal address: Lindenhof 2, 89134 Blaustein-Herrlingen. Therefore *not* named in his honour.
The street named in after him (Erwin-Rommel-Steige) *is nearby*, and leads to the Erwin-Rommel memorial, which marks the spot where he commited suicide.
How to correct this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gjsims ( talk • contribs) 15:55, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 |
Deamonpen, if you are referring to the "I shot the colonel" thread ( :-) ), then it was not me, as I did not participate in the discussion.
Regarding relationships with Arabs, that's nothing surprising as it was the official Nazi policy to maintain good relationships with the Arab population as potential allies in the expected fight against the Jews in Palestine. I can look it up in sources if needed. So I don't think this information in the article is particularly needed, but I don't feel strongly about it.
Here's the material in question, for the reference of other editors:
References
K.e.coffman ( talk) 07:35, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
I suggest you to read The Rommel Papers and decide that whether what Rommel wrote there was enough to create some sort of bad legend about the Italians, because I have the feeling you haven't read it yet - I apologize if this is not the case. Sure, here and there, when Italians shot and missed him form fifty yards (because they mistook him for the enemy - this he did not blame them), he made a sly half angry half amused comment about Italian marksmanship. And again, it was about officers who let soldiers run into dangers while sitting comfortably behind. But he gradually developed natural feelings for the lower ranks whom he called good soldiers, and sympathy for Mussolini whom he respected. Maybe his view was one-sided and he did not see his own problems, maybe sometimes he thought that he was still at Caporetto fighting the Italians there, but there had to be a kernel of truth about Italians' earlier weak performance (no matter what the reason) if Mussolini had to apologize to Hitler about it, and about officers abandoning soldiers if "not a few Italians" criticized [ [1]] Bastico and others for letting Rommel do the job. Certainly the Allied soldiers at the time already knew that Rommel complained much about his Italian allies, and it was a joke they could share with him. All in all, in the Rommel's Papers, when he had become calmer, he was certainly nicer to the Italians than in the vicious comments Mellenthin and modern authors said he said to the Italians' faces, right after any disaster happened. Certainly much nicer than his attitude towards his German High Command, Himmler, Bormann...etc
Again I suggest that if it was about articles/passages that rate Italian fighting performance, then we should use multiple sources, definitely not just Rommel, preferably Italian sources if available. But if it is about Rommel's opinion on Italians in a Rommel article, we might quote Rommel himself before all historians.
As for him self-editing, the question is that whether he had the time and the capability to do so. He was a busy commander who hastily made some notes each morning before going to battle, usually to serve an immediate audience - his wife. Let's say if on day 29 he realized that he should have not written something he wrote on day 20, could he have edited the whole things to make it look consistent, rewrite whole pages (before erasing would look suspicious - anyway could he have predicted that they would fall into the hands of former opponents?)..etc like people do with their post war memoirs? Liddel Hart was certainly pro-Rommel, however does he and others have a reputation (other than making positive comments on Rommel's writings) for radically altering the texts Rommel wrote? Do recent historians complain about Rommel family preventing them from approaching the original writings or do they find signs of Liddel Hart, Bayerlein or Manfred Rommel faking documents? And can you point me to a more reliable version of Rommel's writings, I would be glad to know. Like you, I have the opinion that generally Liddel Hart and others accepted what Rommel wrote. Because they believed he made a good enough case for himself. Deamonpen ( talk) 02:56, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
This inserted a new citation among the text already cited. So I restored prior version, by appending the new content to the end of the paragraph.
Compare:
With the edit:
References
Restored version:
References
Please let me know if there are any questions. K.e.coffman ( talk) 08:19, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
So I restore my version too. I don't think any word on what Auchinleck had in mind is needed either - let's allow the wiki reader to decide. Deamonpen ( talk) 01:24, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
Deamonpen ( talk) 06:56, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
The article states that "During Rommel's time in France, Hitler ordered him to deport the country's Jewish population; Rommel disobeyed". This is based on dubious source that is neither a historian nor scholarly book, it's a biography by a filmaker Benjamin Patton along with letters from his father. According to /info/en/?search=The_Holocaust_in_France article the deportations of French Jews happened in March 1942.Here at Yad Vashem site we can learn that [2] they happened mainly in July. Nowhere is Rommel mentioned. Such deportations and actions were organized mainly by Einsatzgruppen and SS during WW2(although with Wehrmacht's assistance), and it seems very unlikely that deportation of over 150,000 French Jews would be assigned to Rommel and his division. This seems sensationalist and very poorly sourced. If there are no objections I will remove the dubious source.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 09:05, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
Except in one instance, the information in this section is a history of the Rommel's division and the execution of POWs. Do any of the secondary sources discuss how Rommel was involved in these activities? I'd suggest those parts are are not are not notable enough in relation to Rommel to take us such a large section in this article. Thoughts? --John ( User:Jwy/ talk) 03:03, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
"French civilians and Italian prisoners of war held by the Germans were forced by officials under the Vichy government[334] , the Todt Organization and the SS forces[335] to work on building some of the defences Rommel ordered constructed, although they got basic wages and the conditions were "not terrible".[336][334]"
So what does author consider the conditions? Bad? Very Bad? Or just that they weren't terrible because the workers weren't short randomly but only when they wanted to be free and disobeyed?
This is really a shining example of a very distorted view in these kinds of topics. At the end of the day these were people whose lives depended on whim of the German overseeing them and were essentially slaves that could be shot at any time. I will remove this sentence unless there any reasonable objections. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 14:35, 20 June 2016 (UTC) That
So the French civilians's words are distorted but your views based on... nothing are not.
Many thousands of French men were forced to work on the Atlantic Wall as part of an arrangement between the Vichy government and the Albert Speer’s Organisation Todt.
“There was no choice about it. We had to go. Naturally we weren’t enthusiastic, but it is not as if we had any choice. The conditions were not terrible. We weren’t beaten or anything and we got a basic wage. At the start we could go home on Sundays, but after Stalingrad they put up barbed wire and we were stuck inside the work camp. Of course we knew we were building defences for the Germans, and it felt bad. I remember at the end of the war, my two brothers came home. One had been a prisoner, the other a deportee. I felt so bad I did not want to go to the party celebrating their return. But I do think the wall should be preserved now. It is important to remember what happened – the ignominy of it all, the cataclysm that we had to endure.” (Rene-Georges Lubat) Deamonpen ( talk) 14:43, 20 June 2016 (UTC) And? Have you ever heard of Stockholm Syndrome? Does the single quote from single person change the fact that these were slaves that Germans could kill at any time?-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 14:52, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
(I would say Mengele's victims were, though. But even then they retained the ability to recognize the situation as terrible)
Deamonpen ( talk) 15:43, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
In this edit on 17th June [3] user Deamonpen edited the article adding a concealed link to a Holocaust Denial website as source of claim for legality of Rommel's execution of prisoner. The link is concealed within the text(the main text in Wikipedia article won't show where it actually goes, the hyperlink does show it), and goes to infamous Adelaide Institute The Adelaide Institute was formed in 1995 from the former Truth Mission that was established in 1994 by convicted Holocaust denier Gerald Fredrick Töben. The Adelaide Institute is a Holocaust denial group[1] in Australia and is considered to be anti-Semitic by the Australian government's human rights commission.[2]
I will proceed with removal of this source from the article.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 20:45, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
I post this one again because obviously some people don't understand these linguistic subtleties, or are deliberately so, in order to say that if a historian uses "Rommel Myth," what he means is that post-war praises MUST be lies or misconceptions. Actually it's a direct translation of the German "Mythos Rommel". But Mythos Rommel as being used by German authors refers to something mostly neutral, like "the Enigma of Rommel" or "The Rommel Mystery" or even "the Mythology of Rommel", for example here Peter Lieb (one of the authors listed as if he's one who's trying to debunk "the Rommel myth") states that he "is and remains Mythos".
The Rommel Myth theory has also come to the stage when it faces revisionism of itself. For example, basically Maurice Remy(who's also listed as if he belonged to the myth camp, and even more curiously, a French when actually he's a German )argues (with much success) that Rommel was both a Nazi and a hero who fought Hitler: »War er [ Rommel ] ein überzeugter Nationalsozialist, den man verachten muss, oder ein Held des Widerstandes gegen Hitler?«, stellt sich bei genauer Kenntnisnahme der Geschichte so gar nicht. Die Antwort ist nämlich ebenso einfach wie überraschend: Rommel war beides. But even though "his heart did belong to Hitler, it's all the more remarkable that he always found the strength needed to fight against him whenever his conscience required so ... Unwilling and probably without ever realizing it, he was part of a murderous system... but no individual sin." His famous book is certainly the one that is named Mythos Rommel.
Cornelia Hecht, who staged and wrote her own Mythos Rommel (hugely successful exhibition, and booklet) also sees him and his Mythos in an ambivalent light, rather than outright negative or positive: Von Rommel könne man „viel über Ambivalenz lernen“, so die Stuttgarter Landeshistorikerin Dr. Cornelia Hecht.
This revisionism vs revisionism trench was the reason Der Spiegel had to change its general tone towards Rommel, beginning with this (one of the two authors was also the author of the "New Research taints image of Rommel." cited by this wiki page, written some years before this more balanced one). Here, the message is same with the two previously mentioned authors': the man was complicated, vainglorious, seduced by Hitler, yet [the Mythos of] his heroic battles remain nonetheless, like Hitler had predicted. Deamonpen ( talk) 15:32, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
My immediate target audience is MyMoloboaccount who kept repeating things like "Rommel myth statements" "this is faboyism and Rommel Myth" which seems to suggest that in the way he sees it, Rommel Myth = Lies about Rommel, or at least something very negative. Admittedly he's probably not the first one I've seen doing so. Probably because in the modern, global version of English, "X Myth" usually indicates something that needs to be "debunked". Obviously that's not the case with Mythos Rommel in previously mentioned German historians' views. Yes I know we don't discuss him here (although I agree that if some authors write in a way possibly unclear to some of the audience due to multiple reasons, explaining a bit does no harm), I just tried to be patient with MyMoloboaccount as he suggested that authors who sounded biased/senseless to his ears should be deleted. However I promise that next time I will try to be short. My general view is that if wiki readers see "Rommel myth" and think "Lies about Rommel", it's our failure in conveying the message(s), so please be careful. Also if you haven't noticed it yet, it was not me who started "Rommel Myth sentences not adding anything to the article" section or the one before it. If mods see that these explanations are not necessary, feel free to remove. Deamonpen ( talk) 18:37, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
Did we really needed to read a long Original Research about how Rommel was great, Hitler's predictions are coming true and historians are forced to admit Rommel is a hero? In earnest this long essay should be deleted from the talk page....-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 19:54, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
Deamonpen ( talk) 05:04, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
I noticed two sentences that are just repeat of previous sentences in the article and don't add anything of substance. "Other authors argue that generosity to opponents was a natural trait of the man, like Claus Telp who states that Rommel by nature was chivalrous and not prone to order needless violence,[308] or Robert Forczyk who considers Rommel a true great captain with chivalry." First of all we can read that Rommel was "chivalrous" in several other locations of the article including couple of sentences above this one. Another one is not really needed. Second of all what does "Rommel was by nature chivalrous" mean at all? That the author believes some men are by nature more noble than others? Then we have another Rommel Myth claim about him not prone to needless violence although he is well known to be enthusiastic in support of invasion of Poland and in charge of executing a defenseless prisoner. The sentence about Rommel being " true great captain with chivalry" what does it actually add to the article? We already have section on propaganda and how people idolize Rommel, we don't really need more examples of that. The sentence doesn't really add any facts or information that is of any importance. The above sentences are just pointless clutter and really should be removed. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 15:06, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
-We also have plenty of sentences saying that modern authors don't agree with post-war ones who supposedly lie or are misguided about his chivalrous image. It's not about some misguided 'people' who lack information, it's historians who as far as I know are not considered unorthodox, having ulterior motives... (Not that I say we should totally exclude such authors, because sometimes unpopular people bring out right answers. It's just if we reference them we should make some kind of note).
Many authors also explain him as supporting invasion of Poland because: -Misguided beliefs in Hitler's previous bloodless expansion - Belief in German population in Poland needing protection (because they were really suppressed there) - Invasions before WW2 were not something *that* illegal. *Noble" countries like the Allied countries invaded Asia and Africa all the time - Rommel's personal idol Napoleon, by defeating German princes, helped to unite Germany and weakening the class system, thus an example of conquerors who benefited native populations. - They didn't have nukes yet so the image of war was not as terrible as today.
Also, (almost) Immediately in front of these two sentences is a sentence who mentions that he did what he did because he tried to conceal Nazi crimes and not out of noble motives, so these two sentences represent opinions that argue against that theory.
What those authors mean by chivalry in nature, as I see it, is that his conduct was not about some materialized, "realistic" benefits but out of his natural inclinations. Like you save a drowning person because you see one, you don't even think, and that's that. And if you read Forczyk, he's not even Rommel's fan. He's Model's fan through and through. I don't know about the other.
Whether shooting that defenseless prisoner was necessary/legal or not you can read the two articles quoted in "Executions of prisoners" section. Some will also argue that as a commander, he needed time, and dealing with a prisoner who refused to obey three times took too much precious time - if he had allowed this, other prisoners might imitate knowing that he was soft and then his army would not be able to advance any more. In some countries in the West today, even during times of peace, police would shoot if you don't obey them after a certain level of warning, whether you have weapons or not. So if you see that as unnecessary violence, that's still your personal opinion. Telp certainly also knows that case - he says Rommel "was forced" to shoot that prisoner.
Deamonpen ( talk) 15:32, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
Belief in German population in Poland needing protection (because they were really suppressed there) What are you actually saying ? You realize that is a claim made by Nazi propaganda to justify genocidal war against Poles ?
Invasions before WW2 were not something *that* illegal. Invasion of Poland was illegal and a war crime(interestingly Rommel was complicit in its planning and thus would be sentenced as war criminal if he managed to survive), for which Nazis like Rommel were sentenced in Nuremberg Trials. Are you claiming that Invasion of Poland was legal? On what basis and what sources are you using.
In some countries in the West today, even during times of peace, police would shoot if you don't obey them after a certain level of warning, whether you have weapons or no You just compared victims of Nazi war and executions to criminals shot by police. Your personal views here are not relevant to the fact that the sentences about supposed Rommel being chivalrous are completely out of place, unnecessary, repeat Rommel Mythos and go against actual events.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 19:51, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
- /info/en/?search=Polish_Corridor It was a legitimate German concerns, however Hitler certainly overstepped his boundaries (which R. could not predict). -I will not comment further on how colonial powers judged certain invasions illegal, and others not. But no he did not join the planning, writing to Lucie on August 31 1939 about how they will enjoy the rest of their life without war. Remy pg 42. -Whether the officer was a "victim" or not is a debatable matter. And many people who are shot by police for disobeying haven't been put in a trial yet, you can't call all of them criminals. Lsst time I replied to talks that should have been put in a forums though
Deamonpen ( talk) 05:26, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
As a follow up to the above discussion, I'd suggest removing a statement from a veteran:
References
{{
cite news}}
: |issue=
has extra text (
help)CS1 maint: extra punctuation (
link) CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)
The article appropriately cites notable historians and authors, and introducing an opinion of an essentially lay person appears to give this statement undue weight. Weston is not a historian or an expert on the law of war. The Quadrant (magazine) article states that it's a "literary and cultural journal"; so it does not appear to be a specialist publication that's appropriate in citing for this controversial issue. Would like to hear feedback from others. K.e.coffman ( talk) 05:43, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
Again, the standard of wiki allows the listing of such magazines like Dailymail as sources, which if listed as a Reference by a serious historian will be considered ridiculous. They will not list verified authors' sayings in magazines either, as we do here. A letter is at least better. And he is a verified individual. Why the hell is an author listed by a serious historian, one apparently living at least into the 2000s and still joining multiple activities in his country, including giving interviews through the Internet, considered unverified? And you haven't published a scientific paper, have you? It's not about "letters." Basically the editors accept you to be who you introduce yourself to be, and expect the real individual to speak if there was any falsification. By this standard many other authors will be considered unverified.
And here is your bias. I notice you say nothing about Bewley's letter (because it's also a letter). He is not a source listed by any historian either (as far as I can search for, please correct me if I'm wrong).
Deamonpen ( talk) 00:29, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
Is this perhaps a WP:Overcite, that is are six citations needed for this statement?
References
I think that Misch and Young can be dispensed with as dated, possibly also Shirer. I suggest keeping Reuth, since this was the source I used, and perhaps retaining Hansen and / or Marshall? K.e.coffman ( talk) 04:41, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
Deamonpen ( talk) 07:35, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
Commenting:
References
{{
cite book}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
This appears to be undue weight, as equally as many describe Rommel's incapacitation as immaterial to the success or failure of the bomb plot. For example, Norman J. Goda states, in discussing the Hitler oath: "... There were also field marshals such as Rommel and Kluge who despite the oath were willing to have others shove Hitler to the side and act accordingly after the fact". K.e.coffman ( talk) 04:32, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
Deamonpen ( talk) 07:44, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
I had previously started a discussion on this topic, suggesting the section be removed, to which there was no objection Talk:Erwin_Rommel/Archive_5#Wehrmachtbericht_references. I'm replicating it here to see if a consensus can be achieved. Original post:
Also compare to an article on another Field Marshal, Erich von Manstein, which is a GA article:
It does not contain the Wehmachtbericht wording, apart from a reference to Manstein's being mentioned in the report.
K.e.coffman ( talk) 19:37, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
I went through the exercise of replacing the Wehrmachtbericht transcripts with appropriate prose and / or citations on several artcles, and I can say I feel more convinced that they add zero value to the encyclopedia. I never used to read them, because they just looked a block of text to me. When I first encountered these sections on WWII articles, I was confused mostly about two things: (1) what this was in the first place; and (2) why they took up so much real estate, and had their own prominent section. (That's why I rewrote the linked article).
Here are some examples of the reports. In some cases, they simply contain no information, as in the first bullet below. Overall, this exercise has left me mildly disturbed, as they ooze the "Nazi propaganda newsreel" vibe (emphasis mine):
There's been so much new WWII historiography in the past twenty years. So, if there was any historical value in the transcripts, I'm sure there would have been published research on them. In the same vein, besides the Uziel, Daniel (2008). The Propaganda Warriors: The Wehrmacht and the Consolidation of the German Home Front. souce, I don't recall seeing anything else.
in short, such material isn't useful to readers (especially as if a mention in this broadcast was considered a noteworthy honour, it can be covered just as well without the transcript), and is additionally highly problematic as it's unreliable Nazi propaganda. Articles on Allied military units and individuals don't include the text of mentions in dispatches or communiques, and rightly so.
In a few cases where I tried to incorporate the transcript into the prose, it came out looking sort of hokey, and I'm not sure what value it adds; see: Michael Wittmann#Awards. I'm more inclined to follow Diannaa's example: step2 and step 2. This leaves simple text, allowing the readers to click on the link to find out more:
If someone is willing to do the work and provide citations, I'd be all for it. But I'd rather not have to read more of the reports. We can see how the consensus continues to develop. K.e.coffman ( talk) 01:13, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
Text removed, for reference:
K.e.coffman ( talk) 05:08, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
I totally don't want to talk about this thing again. However, I still find "... with Rommel being directly involved..." totally unacceptable. If even Caddick Adams who finds the execution illegal does not use this as a piece of evidence to link it to, or prove other alledged incidents regarding the 7th - and I can say this is the approach of at least the majority of authors (whatever they think about Rommel's order), and even if both had been crimes on Rommel's part and the 7th's part, the circumstances and motivations were totally different. The single execution (if we considered it a crime) could've happened anywhere, in a moment the commander was irritated by at least a partly justified reason, a la a crime of passion. Deliberate, prepared massacre is another problem. Let alone we already have the repeated mention of such massacres in the same section (second paragraph). Deamonpen ( talk) 17:38, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
It's true to different level but I don't think we should insert the phrase. Just let the readers themselves investigate the situation - it was much more complicated than that these three hated Rommel or smth.
The personal feuding factor was only really important in Heinrich Kirchheim's case (who Rommel dismissed and called a coward. Although apparently on the side of Rommel, he did not keep personal grudge nor think much about it, considering he allowed Kirchheim' wife free access to his own family shortly before his death - a woman on the right was Hildegard Kirchheim, according to Marshall, p119)
The other two were more like they had known about the plot beforehand (at least Rundstedt, and I find an author who states the same ab Guderian), but they ducked and waited, and when they saw that Hitler had won, they came out and "surrendered" to him.
At the beginning, the army generally supported Hitler but was lukewarm at best to the Nazi party. Thus the Nazis needed a general or some generals to invigorate the army with the Nazi ideology and the will to fight. They used Rommel for that. But turned out, he also liked Hitler but disliked the party, and he just talked whatever he wanted whether it corresponded with the Nazi ideals or not. They also used Dietrich, Dietl (party members), Model but they were much less efficient because they were much less popular. When R. was "weakened", Hitler looked to Manstein for replacement but, in Hitler's eyes, the guy had "no world view, no character"
After the July plot, there was a void that threatened to swallow the whole regime. Hitler filled that void by Rundstedt and Guderian. They presided over the court martial, issued orders that truly nazified the armed forces, read the oration that delared Rommel had died a loyal Nazi soldier at his funeral...etc In short they helped Hitler to consolidate the Wehrmacht politically, thus his comment that Rundstedt did the regime a great service after the plot.
There was great reluctance on Rundstedt's part - he could not bear to go to the cremation. Even modern authors like Remy (p.229) and Mitcham felt that his affection for R., faint as it was, was genuine. Guderian probably had professional envy, and he was behind Schweppenburg in Normandy, but nothing suggests it went that bad (that he desired to kill R.). In fact von Luck's memoirs recounted a secret meeting between Guderian and Rommel at the Four Seasons Hotel, of which unfortunately we don't know the true content.
In short this was about politics rather than personal feuding, and Hitler chose Rundstedt and Guderian because they were senior officers who were feared and respected by others. And we should encourage readers to look at the bigger picture. Black summarized the thing better: After the unsuccessful July bomb plot of 1944, the bulk of the German military command rallied to Hitler, while Nazification was pushed by Guderian, the new Chief of the General Staff Deamonpen ( talk) 05:12, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for any help / opinions. Carlotm ( talk) 07:21, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
Deamonpen ( talk) 08:05, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
Deamonpen, with a search per last name I found following unused items (E&OE):
There are also two short notes without their full references (typos?): Friedmann 2012; Remy 2015.
For the other questions I would like to read some more comments. Thanks. Carlotm ( talk) 09:15, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
Remy - yes, typo, 2002. Deamonpen ( talk) 09:51, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
Yes, I did not notice that. Just fixed Friedmann. Deamonpen ( talk) 03:45, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
It sounds very unlikely that Rommel was trying to reduce military training if he, by all accounts including that of Jodl who stood on his side in this case, was trying to convert the Hitlerjudgend into a military organization under the Army's management and not the party's. It seems Butler and Mitcham are both influenced by Fraser in this case but i cannot remember what Fraser says. It looks much more likely that, as reported by other authors, he protested against overt ideology training, argued for sport and character training, and agreed with military training which should be provided by professionals like him rather than amateurs like Schirach. Remy suggests that he was very much willing to find chances to tell the story of how he stormed the Matajur to pretty much anyone in the hitlerjugend, including Schirach's wife (she had accidently dropped the keyword "Mountain"; same story would later be told repeatedly to Hitler, Goebbels and Ruge no matter how depressed he became). Deamonpen ( talk) 04:59, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
This section has some tangled sentence structures and disconcerting grammatical problems. Someone who understands how to write AND knows the subject should do some work on it. Thanks 124.148.24.180 ( talk) 01:31, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
Following is inaccurate:
"Numerous streets in Germany, especially in his home state of Baden-Württemberg, are named in his honour, including the street where his last home was located"
His last home is accessible from Bahnhofstraße, Herrlingen, and now houses a small museum (phone ahead to get the key). Postal address: Lindenhof 2, 89134 Blaustein-Herrlingen. Therefore *not* named in his honour.
The street named in after him (Erwin-Rommel-Steige) *is nearby*, and leads to the Erwin-Rommel memorial, which marks the spot where he commited suicide.
How to correct this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gjsims ( talk • contribs) 15:55, 24 September 2017 (UTC)