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From the "Content and comments" section:
How can we say that the prophecy of Enoch is found "no where else"? Is it not found in the book of Enoch 1:9? Maybe we can say that the information contained in Jude appears nowhere else in the protestant cannon, or alternately, to not say that the prophecy appears no where else.
Suggestion:
"The book of Jude contains information from ancient times that is not found elsewhere in most bible cannons. The includes the dispute between Michael the Archangel and the devil about the body of Moses (Jude 1:7). It also includes the prophecy of Enoch, who pre-dates Noah (Jude 1:14-15)."
Alternate suggestion:
"The book of Jude contains information from ancient times that is not found elsewhere. The includes the dispute between Michael the Archangel and the devil about the body of Moses (Jude 1:7). It also includes The prophecy of Enoch, who pre-dates Noah (Jude 1:14-15) appears no where else except in the book of Enoch which is not included in most bible cannons."
(
Drewdafis 03:10, 8 January 2007 (UTC))
To Codex Sinaiticus: by reverting back to the 28-Mar-2007 version, you have undone the good faith reverts of 5 different editors. If there's a part you don't like, change it. But don't revert the whole thing. And some of the comments on Enoch had to change, such as this unencyclopedic and unreferenced sentence: "is known to have been in regular use by Jewish and Christian groups alike, until c. 90, when the Pharisee Sanhedrin at Yavneh (which is disputed) declared it to be "no longer scriptural" and began its systematic suppression, practically erasing it from history". So please, edit constructively. I'm more than happy to discuss the content here. Rocksong 01:24, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
The following two sentences keep getting put back by Codex Sinaiticus ("This latter book" refers to the Book of Enoch, italics added for purposes of this discussion)
"This latter book, purporting to be the first book ever written, is known to have been in regular use by Jewish and Christian groups alike, until c. 90, when the Pharisee Sanhedrin at Yavneh (which is disputed) declared it to be "no longer scriptural" and began its systematic suppression, practically erasing it from history. Were it not for the Epistle of Jude, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the Ethiopian Bible (see Ethiopian Orthodox), never affected by Yavneh, the Book of Enoch would be unknown today."
I believe it needs to be removed for the following reasons:
That is why I am rewriting it. If you disagree, argue your case here, or do your own improvements. Please don't continually do blanket reverts. Rocksong 03:09, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Just out of curiosity, since I've seen this book referenced a couple times here of WP, what is the proper way to cite Jude? If I'm citing verse 3, should I say "Jude 3" or "Jude 1:3"? The more i think about it, the latter would be most clear (to avoid ambiguity in citing "Jude 1"), but are both forms acceptable? -- Ybbor Talk 00:19, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
I have revised the section on authorship as it does not appear to have used the most recent scholarship. If anyone knows of more recent work please add it in. Thanks. Mercury543210 20:04, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
There's material about the author, date, style and references to other books, but no section about the content? Shinobu ( talk) 06:06, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
The article offers the following evidence in support of Jude being dependent on 2 Peter:
"However, Jude 1:17-18 denotes a possible quotation from “the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ” which has “no close parallel except in 2 Peter 3:3”"
To which I reply: So what? The phrase "remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold" cannot be a reference to 2 Peter, because 2 Peter 3:2 also says to "recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles". In other words, Jude is not quoting 2 Peter. Rather, Jude and 2 Peter are both quoting an earlier command which predates both epistles.
In other words, the sentence demonstrates nothing (other that there is similarity between Jude and 2 Peter, but the article already mentions that), and should be deleted. Peter Ballard ( talk) 12:47, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
BTW Baukham's Word Commentary is offered as a reference, but I doubt Baukham would be using it as evidence for the priority of 2 Peter, since he says in his introduction (browsable at Amazon) [1]: "The relationship between Jude and 2 Peter is discussed in the Introduction to 2 Peter, where the judgement of most modern scholars, that 2 Peter is dependent on Jude, not vice versa, is accepted." Peter Ballard ( talk) 12:51, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Under 'Identity' it reads:
This dispute over the true meaning of "brother" grew as the Doctrine of the Virgin Birth evolved.
How would the Virgin Birth doctrine have any impact on whether Jesus had brothers? Surely the controversy arose in connection with the Immaculate Conception/Perpetual Virginity of Mary doctrine, not the Virgin Birth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Poglad ( talk • contribs) 14:13, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
The page says "The Book of Enoch is not considered canonical by most churches, although it is by the Ethiopian Orthodox church." Is this the only church that does or are there others as well. It is ambiguous as is. Leefkrust22 ( talk) 03:48, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
I've asked this at the page of the person who wrote the edit, but I'd be happy to hear from anyone...
The article currently says, "Others have drawn the opposite conclusion, i.e., that, as an apostle, he would not have made a claim of apostleship on his own behalf.(ref) Bauckham, R. J. (1986), Word Biblical Commentary, Vol.50, Word (UK) Ltd. p.14f ".
My questions are:
I'd be a little surprised if Bauckham thought the author was the apostle, and not the brother of Jesus (assuming they're different people). Adpete ( talk) 04:18, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
I think in any article involving Biblical Studies, editors need to be careful in asserting scholarly consensus or individual opinion as fact: very often a lot made to hang on very little, and there is a track record of archeological evidence proving academic speculation wrong. This is not to put down academic speculation: they generate hypotheses and debate if these are plausible; however, speculation is not NPOV. The age of compilation of the Gospels is an example of something that has swung wildly.
For example, the comment in the text that Jude could not have written Epistle of Jude as he would have been illiterate, because Gallilean peasants were illiterate seems mad to me: scribes were common and could be used both for reading and writing but also for good literary form. Even today busy people have secretaries or law clerks to take care of drafting. I have friends who are not confident writers and they get their friends to help them. (And, in any case, someone who starts life semi-literate or illiterate can gain skills over their lifetime. I happens all the time.) But we don't actually know that Jude was illiterate, it is just speculation: indeed, we don't actually know the state of literacy among Judean peasants, and we don't know that Jude was a typical Judean peasant or that his family was. It is reasonable speculation, but speculation nonetheless.
My concrete suggestion is that the word "speculates" should be used much more. Rick Jelliffe ( talk) 02:29, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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From the "Content and comments" section:
How can we say that the prophecy of Enoch is found "no where else"? Is it not found in the book of Enoch 1:9? Maybe we can say that the information contained in Jude appears nowhere else in the protestant cannon, or alternately, to not say that the prophecy appears no where else.
Suggestion:
"The book of Jude contains information from ancient times that is not found elsewhere in most bible cannons. The includes the dispute between Michael the Archangel and the devil about the body of Moses (Jude 1:7). It also includes the prophecy of Enoch, who pre-dates Noah (Jude 1:14-15)."
Alternate suggestion:
"The book of Jude contains information from ancient times that is not found elsewhere. The includes the dispute between Michael the Archangel and the devil about the body of Moses (Jude 1:7). It also includes The prophecy of Enoch, who pre-dates Noah (Jude 1:14-15) appears no where else except in the book of Enoch which is not included in most bible cannons."
(
Drewdafis 03:10, 8 January 2007 (UTC))
To Codex Sinaiticus: by reverting back to the 28-Mar-2007 version, you have undone the good faith reverts of 5 different editors. If there's a part you don't like, change it. But don't revert the whole thing. And some of the comments on Enoch had to change, such as this unencyclopedic and unreferenced sentence: "is known to have been in regular use by Jewish and Christian groups alike, until c. 90, when the Pharisee Sanhedrin at Yavneh (which is disputed) declared it to be "no longer scriptural" and began its systematic suppression, practically erasing it from history". So please, edit constructively. I'm more than happy to discuss the content here. Rocksong 01:24, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
The following two sentences keep getting put back by Codex Sinaiticus ("This latter book" refers to the Book of Enoch, italics added for purposes of this discussion)
"This latter book, purporting to be the first book ever written, is known to have been in regular use by Jewish and Christian groups alike, until c. 90, when the Pharisee Sanhedrin at Yavneh (which is disputed) declared it to be "no longer scriptural" and began its systematic suppression, practically erasing it from history. Were it not for the Epistle of Jude, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the Ethiopian Bible (see Ethiopian Orthodox), never affected by Yavneh, the Book of Enoch would be unknown today."
I believe it needs to be removed for the following reasons:
That is why I am rewriting it. If you disagree, argue your case here, or do your own improvements. Please don't continually do blanket reverts. Rocksong 03:09, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Just out of curiosity, since I've seen this book referenced a couple times here of WP, what is the proper way to cite Jude? If I'm citing verse 3, should I say "Jude 3" or "Jude 1:3"? The more i think about it, the latter would be most clear (to avoid ambiguity in citing "Jude 1"), but are both forms acceptable? -- Ybbor Talk 00:19, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
I have revised the section on authorship as it does not appear to have used the most recent scholarship. If anyone knows of more recent work please add it in. Thanks. Mercury543210 20:04, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
There's material about the author, date, style and references to other books, but no section about the content? Shinobu ( talk) 06:06, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
The article offers the following evidence in support of Jude being dependent on 2 Peter:
"However, Jude 1:17-18 denotes a possible quotation from “the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ” which has “no close parallel except in 2 Peter 3:3”"
To which I reply: So what? The phrase "remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold" cannot be a reference to 2 Peter, because 2 Peter 3:2 also says to "recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles". In other words, Jude is not quoting 2 Peter. Rather, Jude and 2 Peter are both quoting an earlier command which predates both epistles.
In other words, the sentence demonstrates nothing (other that there is similarity between Jude and 2 Peter, but the article already mentions that), and should be deleted. Peter Ballard ( talk) 12:47, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
BTW Baukham's Word Commentary is offered as a reference, but I doubt Baukham would be using it as evidence for the priority of 2 Peter, since he says in his introduction (browsable at Amazon) [1]: "The relationship between Jude and 2 Peter is discussed in the Introduction to 2 Peter, where the judgement of most modern scholars, that 2 Peter is dependent on Jude, not vice versa, is accepted." Peter Ballard ( talk) 12:51, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Under 'Identity' it reads:
This dispute over the true meaning of "brother" grew as the Doctrine of the Virgin Birth evolved.
How would the Virgin Birth doctrine have any impact on whether Jesus had brothers? Surely the controversy arose in connection with the Immaculate Conception/Perpetual Virginity of Mary doctrine, not the Virgin Birth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Poglad ( talk • contribs) 14:13, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
The page says "The Book of Enoch is not considered canonical by most churches, although it is by the Ethiopian Orthodox church." Is this the only church that does or are there others as well. It is ambiguous as is. Leefkrust22 ( talk) 03:48, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
I've asked this at the page of the person who wrote the edit, but I'd be happy to hear from anyone...
The article currently says, "Others have drawn the opposite conclusion, i.e., that, as an apostle, he would not have made a claim of apostleship on his own behalf.(ref) Bauckham, R. J. (1986), Word Biblical Commentary, Vol.50, Word (UK) Ltd. p.14f ".
My questions are:
I'd be a little surprised if Bauckham thought the author was the apostle, and not the brother of Jesus (assuming they're different people). Adpete ( talk) 04:18, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
I think in any article involving Biblical Studies, editors need to be careful in asserting scholarly consensus or individual opinion as fact: very often a lot made to hang on very little, and there is a track record of archeological evidence proving academic speculation wrong. This is not to put down academic speculation: they generate hypotheses and debate if these are plausible; however, speculation is not NPOV. The age of compilation of the Gospels is an example of something that has swung wildly.
For example, the comment in the text that Jude could not have written Epistle of Jude as he would have been illiterate, because Gallilean peasants were illiterate seems mad to me: scribes were common and could be used both for reading and writing but also for good literary form. Even today busy people have secretaries or law clerks to take care of drafting. I have friends who are not confident writers and they get their friends to help them. (And, in any case, someone who starts life semi-literate or illiterate can gain skills over their lifetime. I happens all the time.) But we don't actually know that Jude was illiterate, it is just speculation: indeed, we don't actually know the state of literacy among Judean peasants, and we don't know that Jude was a typical Judean peasant or that his family was. It is reasonable speculation, but speculation nonetheless.
My concrete suggestion is that the word "speculates" should be used much more. Rick Jelliffe ( talk) 02:29, 30 April 2024 (UTC)