This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Hi, owing to the objections some have expressed in regards to entropy’s association with “disorder”, I have spent almost a month now adding over a dozen new references, uploaded 3 new images, adding new formulas, and added both the history and modern-day conceptions of how “order” and “disorder” are utilized in current science. To be clear, there is no underlying motive or conspiracy here; these are well-established theories and methods of presentation. Many of us have degrees in this field and do research on this topic. Google search results clearly show that there are more than 12-million articles written with discussion on entropy, order, and disorder. Thus, please, if you have some type of disagreement or objection to entropy being discussed and presented in terms of “disorder”, possibly based on some sort of entropy/ creationism conflict or beginner chemistry issues, than discuss this somewhere else. We are only here to present topic information, as it is, in an unbiased neutral point-of-view manner. I certainly apologize if I have failed to present entropy in a crystal clear, easily discernable manner. Yet, entropy itself, in the words of many scientist and authors, is one of the most puzzling concepts in all of science. Thus, if, in our effort to facilitate topic understanding, we unintentionally result to bend phrasings and presentation styles, almost to the effect that we are assembling original presentations using our own personal conceptions, then we are in fact no longer on topic. To highlight the subtle point I am digging at, in the words of the great Nobelist Gilbert Lewis, from the Oxford Dictionary of Scientific Quotations: [1]
“ | There is always the danger in scientific work that some word or phrase will be used by different authors to express so many ideas and surmises that, unless redefined, it loses all real significance. | ” |
Thanks everyone for your help. Later: -- Sadi Carnot 16:04, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, of course I don’t own the article, but then again I’m not going to sit by and watch:
As for the temperature lowering magnetization example, I checked it again, the description comes from a noted 3rd edition physics textbook, and from what I have read it seems to be used in practice as a technique to achieve low temperatures. If I come across another book that describes this technique, I will modify that section accordingly. Again, I only added this because you requested more examples. Thanks: -- Sadi Carnot 18:18, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Good work Dave. On first pass, your contribution seems to have improved that section. This seems to be a thick topic, utilizing many different theories; we’ll have to put some thought on the issue. The terms “magnetic energy” and “thermal energy” will probably need some more clarification, in terms of what these visually mean via atomic movements. I’m sure we can all put our heads together to build on this section as time goes on. Talk later: -- Sadi Carnot 15:46, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
OK, let's get this clear -- this statement is wrong: The word “chaos” itself is based on the
Greek word tarakhe for "disorder". Let us look at the ref: c.1440, "gaping void," from L. chaos, from Gk. khaos "abyss, that which gapes wide open, is vast and empty," from *khnwos, from PIE base *gheu-, *gh(e)i- "to gape" (cf. Gk khaino "I yawn," O.E. ginian, O.N. ginnunga-gap; see yawn). Meaning "utter confusion" (1606) is extended from theological use of chaos for "the void at the beginning of creation" in Vulgate version of Genesis. The Gk. for "disorder" was tarakhe, however the use of
chaos here was rooted in Hesiod ("Theogony"), who describes khaos as the primeval emptiness of the Universe, begetter of Erebus and Nyx ("Night"), and in Ovid ("Metamorphoses"), who opposes Khaos to Kosmos, "the ordered Universe." Chaotic is from 1713. Do we all see "from PIE base *gheu-, *gh(e)i- "to gape""? Yes? That is the end of the etymology. The remainder before "yawn)." deals with cognates. In other words, chaos no more comes from tanakhe than it does from lithos. The remainder deals with the writings of antiquity and has not a damned thing to do with why it was used in the article.
Now, how, besides the ref, do I know this? Because linguistics is one of my specialties and because I can read and write Classical Greek. Now that I have explained this, I do not expect to see that κοπρος βοος reinserted into the article.
•Jim62sch• 23:02, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I have tagged this section for restructuring and rewriting: the section as it currently stands has little order and much disorder. The writing and organisation is chaotic, and some points do not logically follow, while others are bludgeoned into oblivion. •Jim62sch• 23:13, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, now what? I have no idea what changes have been made, but maybe this is a good time to restructure the article. I assume that basically what has been done is that some stuff has been thrown out and there has been a reordering. Rather than just revert the whole thing, I have done some more restructuring, but no adding or subtracting. For example, the thermodynamic definition definitely does not belong way down at the bottom. After this restructuring, we can then go to the last edit before the s**t hit the fan and start restoring stuff that was deleted that should not have been. Hows that for a plan? PAR 01:31, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
I asked the user to explain his changes long before you appear to have noticed them. His response was not very clear. Let us continue to ask him what he was trying to do. At the same time, let nobody think that this article is even close to being a GA. Sorry I have not been around. I will be back, but I'm running a conference this weekend and I'm flat out. -- Bduke 10:41, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
The page is getting kind of long; I will move some of the "History" to History of entropy and some of the "Order and Disorder" to Entropy (order and disorder) and group up some of the 2nd law stuff with currently has two separate sections. -- Sadi Carnot 08:49, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
The two are not the same. It is strange that such an article, about disorder, defies having an orderly appearance (even when it is orderly in fact). Kmarinas86 00:44, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Par did some good work reorganizing of the page; it feels much cleaner and the topics are grouped nicely. The main article seems to be in a relatively stable shape. If anyone has any major issues with the article or sees areas for improvement, I suggest we discuss first on the talk page. Later: -- Sadi Carnot 04:45, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
"The statistical mechanical entropy is proportional to the minimum number of yes/no questions you have to ask in order to determine the microstate, given that you know the macrostate.
Yes, I agree that it is a mathematical fact that the equations are near to the same and I am not suggesting a downgrade, just that the header should be something like: "Entropy as information" or something; as to ordering, I would do it chronologically: Carnot's pre-entropy (1824), Clausius's entropy (1862), Boltzmann's entropy (1870), Gibbs' entropy (1903), Shannon's entropy (1949), Atkin's entropy (1984), etc., Later: -- Sadi Carnot 17:52, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, good idea as to “entropy in chemistry”; the see main header, however, would be chemical thermodynamics. Using Brown, LeMay, and Bursten’s Chemistry – the Central Science (9th Ed) as a reference, for example, ch. 5 (Thermochemistry) is about enthalpy change and Hess’s law, ch. 15 (Chemical Equilibrium) is about the rate constant, and ch. 19 (Chemical Thermodynamics) is where the entropy stuff is. It has the following outlined sections:
I only recently started the chemical thermodynamics article, however; it still needs a lot of work. Later: -- Sadi Carnot 01:34, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.
Generally, trivia sections are looked down upon; please either remove the trivia section or incorporate any important facts into the rest of the article.
You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Kmarinas86 06:31, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for getting that, it gives useful pointers. The lead clearly needs to be rethought, and I'll try to consider that: to some extent it will follow from the structure and hence the contents of the article. The article's recently acquired lists of brief definitions without explanations: these should be incorporated into explanatory text, or moved to Entropy (disambiguation). There's also rather a tendency to throw in obsolescent terms – these are appropriate in the History of entropy article, but tend to make the main article more confusing, which we can do without. .. dave souza, talk 10:12, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
The more I ponder the concept, the more wrong it appears to be. I note that in the the 7th edition (2005), there is no mention of adiabatic demagnetization. In what chapter/topic did it appear in the 3rd edition (1988) that you used? The presentation you give on 'order/disorder' of 'atomic order-disorder' is simplistic to the point of meaninglessness. The five step diagram in the wiki article "Magnetic Refrigeration" is far superior and much more essential for gaining an understanding of the process.
the system is insulated and the external magnetic field rapidly decreased. However, now the spin levels are returned to their original smaller-gap levels and there are many un- or relatively sparsely-occupied spin levels and energy is transferred from the lattice energy of the crystal to the energy-deficient atomic spins to restore their energetic equilibrium, Consequently, the decrease in lattice energy means that the crystals drop below the temperature at which they were (i.e., below liquid He temperature)."
Thus, in no sense is the appearance order and disorder causal in this process (nor are they ever causal re entropy, they are mere symptoms.) Energy transfer/T, (disperal, or if you prefer "energy flow") as in all entropy changes, is the proper focus, as it has been since Clausius!
•Jim62sch• 10:29, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
This really needs simplifying to make it understanable by the average person. I am a degree qualified (electronics) engineer and I can't understand it! So what chance does Joe Public have?-- Light current 02:24, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I have changed the merge tags to mergeto and mergefrom which is the best way and this brings the discussion to one place - here. I am not sure I agree with the merge but I think it needs to be discussed and it needs to be discussed carefully and slowly. Let us not rush into this. I have been busy with a conference but I plan to spend some time now thinking and working on this pair of articles. The first paragraph really does still need work. I'll make some suggestions soon. -- Bduke 06:32, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
These simple "introduction" pages are not my idea; but, then again, I'm not going to go to all of these pages and request mergers. I suggest that we use them accordingly now that people are making them (for whatever reason). Thanks, I will remove the merge tags. -- Sadi Carnot 13:21, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi all, I plan to start this header. I keep finding these posts by random users writing in and asking if they are the same or if they are different. This issue needs to be addressed in an objective neutral point of view. Below is an example debate on this issue between four physicists:
Moreover, here is an informative article (pasted section) from that page (sourced from here) that exemplifies the confusion and the distinction between the two:
I will group this section below the Statistical Thermodynamics section, if anyone wants to re-place this somewhere else, I would have no objective; hopefully we can all chip in. More talk-page examples are below:
It's not a good idea to tip-toe around this issue as though it weren't there. The distinction between these two is a major issue that we need to address. I’ve linked to two talk pages now and one article where people have been confused about this and have written in trying to find the answer. I suggest that we provide this answer here, very clearly. Thanks: -- Sadi Carnot 13:42, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Hi, owing to the objections some have expressed in regards to entropy’s association with “disorder”, I have spent almost a month now adding over a dozen new references, uploaded 3 new images, adding new formulas, and added both the history and modern-day conceptions of how “order” and “disorder” are utilized in current science. To be clear, there is no underlying motive or conspiracy here; these are well-established theories and methods of presentation. Many of us have degrees in this field and do research on this topic. Google search results clearly show that there are more than 12-million articles written with discussion on entropy, order, and disorder. Thus, please, if you have some type of disagreement or objection to entropy being discussed and presented in terms of “disorder”, possibly based on some sort of entropy/ creationism conflict or beginner chemistry issues, than discuss this somewhere else. We are only here to present topic information, as it is, in an unbiased neutral point-of-view manner. I certainly apologize if I have failed to present entropy in a crystal clear, easily discernable manner. Yet, entropy itself, in the words of many scientist and authors, is one of the most puzzling concepts in all of science. Thus, if, in our effort to facilitate topic understanding, we unintentionally result to bend phrasings and presentation styles, almost to the effect that we are assembling original presentations using our own personal conceptions, then we are in fact no longer on topic. To highlight the subtle point I am digging at, in the words of the great Nobelist Gilbert Lewis, from the Oxford Dictionary of Scientific Quotations: [1]
“ | There is always the danger in scientific work that some word or phrase will be used by different authors to express so many ideas and surmises that, unless redefined, it loses all real significance. | ” |
Thanks everyone for your help. Later: -- Sadi Carnot 16:04, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, of course I don’t own the article, but then again I’m not going to sit by and watch:
As for the temperature lowering magnetization example, I checked it again, the description comes from a noted 3rd edition physics textbook, and from what I have read it seems to be used in practice as a technique to achieve low temperatures. If I come across another book that describes this technique, I will modify that section accordingly. Again, I only added this because you requested more examples. Thanks: -- Sadi Carnot 18:18, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Good work Dave. On first pass, your contribution seems to have improved that section. This seems to be a thick topic, utilizing many different theories; we’ll have to put some thought on the issue. The terms “magnetic energy” and “thermal energy” will probably need some more clarification, in terms of what these visually mean via atomic movements. I’m sure we can all put our heads together to build on this section as time goes on. Talk later: -- Sadi Carnot 15:46, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
OK, let's get this clear -- this statement is wrong: The word “chaos” itself is based on the
Greek word tarakhe for "disorder". Let us look at the ref: c.1440, "gaping void," from L. chaos, from Gk. khaos "abyss, that which gapes wide open, is vast and empty," from *khnwos, from PIE base *gheu-, *gh(e)i- "to gape" (cf. Gk khaino "I yawn," O.E. ginian, O.N. ginnunga-gap; see yawn). Meaning "utter confusion" (1606) is extended from theological use of chaos for "the void at the beginning of creation" in Vulgate version of Genesis. The Gk. for "disorder" was tarakhe, however the use of
chaos here was rooted in Hesiod ("Theogony"), who describes khaos as the primeval emptiness of the Universe, begetter of Erebus and Nyx ("Night"), and in Ovid ("Metamorphoses"), who opposes Khaos to Kosmos, "the ordered Universe." Chaotic is from 1713. Do we all see "from PIE base *gheu-, *gh(e)i- "to gape""? Yes? That is the end of the etymology. The remainder before "yawn)." deals with cognates. In other words, chaos no more comes from tanakhe than it does from lithos. The remainder deals with the writings of antiquity and has not a damned thing to do with why it was used in the article.
Now, how, besides the ref, do I know this? Because linguistics is one of my specialties and because I can read and write Classical Greek. Now that I have explained this, I do not expect to see that κοπρος βοος reinserted into the article.
•Jim62sch• 23:02, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I have tagged this section for restructuring and rewriting: the section as it currently stands has little order and much disorder. The writing and organisation is chaotic, and some points do not logically follow, while others are bludgeoned into oblivion. •Jim62sch• 23:13, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, now what? I have no idea what changes have been made, but maybe this is a good time to restructure the article. I assume that basically what has been done is that some stuff has been thrown out and there has been a reordering. Rather than just revert the whole thing, I have done some more restructuring, but no adding or subtracting. For example, the thermodynamic definition definitely does not belong way down at the bottom. After this restructuring, we can then go to the last edit before the s**t hit the fan and start restoring stuff that was deleted that should not have been. Hows that for a plan? PAR 01:31, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
I asked the user to explain his changes long before you appear to have noticed them. His response was not very clear. Let us continue to ask him what he was trying to do. At the same time, let nobody think that this article is even close to being a GA. Sorry I have not been around. I will be back, but I'm running a conference this weekend and I'm flat out. -- Bduke 10:41, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
The page is getting kind of long; I will move some of the "History" to History of entropy and some of the "Order and Disorder" to Entropy (order and disorder) and group up some of the 2nd law stuff with currently has two separate sections. -- Sadi Carnot 08:49, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
The two are not the same. It is strange that such an article, about disorder, defies having an orderly appearance (even when it is orderly in fact). Kmarinas86 00:44, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Par did some good work reorganizing of the page; it feels much cleaner and the topics are grouped nicely. The main article seems to be in a relatively stable shape. If anyone has any major issues with the article or sees areas for improvement, I suggest we discuss first on the talk page. Later: -- Sadi Carnot 04:45, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
"The statistical mechanical entropy is proportional to the minimum number of yes/no questions you have to ask in order to determine the microstate, given that you know the macrostate.
Yes, I agree that it is a mathematical fact that the equations are near to the same and I am not suggesting a downgrade, just that the header should be something like: "Entropy as information" or something; as to ordering, I would do it chronologically: Carnot's pre-entropy (1824), Clausius's entropy (1862), Boltzmann's entropy (1870), Gibbs' entropy (1903), Shannon's entropy (1949), Atkin's entropy (1984), etc., Later: -- Sadi Carnot 17:52, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, good idea as to “entropy in chemistry”; the see main header, however, would be chemical thermodynamics. Using Brown, LeMay, and Bursten’s Chemistry – the Central Science (9th Ed) as a reference, for example, ch. 5 (Thermochemistry) is about enthalpy change and Hess’s law, ch. 15 (Chemical Equilibrium) is about the rate constant, and ch. 19 (Chemical Thermodynamics) is where the entropy stuff is. It has the following outlined sections:
I only recently started the chemical thermodynamics article, however; it still needs a lot of work. Later: -- Sadi Carnot 01:34, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.
Generally, trivia sections are looked down upon; please either remove the trivia section or incorporate any important facts into the rest of the article.
You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Kmarinas86 06:31, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for getting that, it gives useful pointers. The lead clearly needs to be rethought, and I'll try to consider that: to some extent it will follow from the structure and hence the contents of the article. The article's recently acquired lists of brief definitions without explanations: these should be incorporated into explanatory text, or moved to Entropy (disambiguation). There's also rather a tendency to throw in obsolescent terms – these are appropriate in the History of entropy article, but tend to make the main article more confusing, which we can do without. .. dave souza, talk 10:12, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
The more I ponder the concept, the more wrong it appears to be. I note that in the the 7th edition (2005), there is no mention of adiabatic demagnetization. In what chapter/topic did it appear in the 3rd edition (1988) that you used? The presentation you give on 'order/disorder' of 'atomic order-disorder' is simplistic to the point of meaninglessness. The five step diagram in the wiki article "Magnetic Refrigeration" is far superior and much more essential for gaining an understanding of the process.
the system is insulated and the external magnetic field rapidly decreased. However, now the spin levels are returned to their original smaller-gap levels and there are many un- or relatively sparsely-occupied spin levels and energy is transferred from the lattice energy of the crystal to the energy-deficient atomic spins to restore their energetic equilibrium, Consequently, the decrease in lattice energy means that the crystals drop below the temperature at which they were (i.e., below liquid He temperature)."
Thus, in no sense is the appearance order and disorder causal in this process (nor are they ever causal re entropy, they are mere symptoms.) Energy transfer/T, (disperal, or if you prefer "energy flow") as in all entropy changes, is the proper focus, as it has been since Clausius!
•Jim62sch• 10:29, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
This really needs simplifying to make it understanable by the average person. I am a degree qualified (electronics) engineer and I can't understand it! So what chance does Joe Public have?-- Light current 02:24, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I have changed the merge tags to mergeto and mergefrom which is the best way and this brings the discussion to one place - here. I am not sure I agree with the merge but I think it needs to be discussed and it needs to be discussed carefully and slowly. Let us not rush into this. I have been busy with a conference but I plan to spend some time now thinking and working on this pair of articles. The first paragraph really does still need work. I'll make some suggestions soon. -- Bduke 06:32, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
These simple "introduction" pages are not my idea; but, then again, I'm not going to go to all of these pages and request mergers. I suggest that we use them accordingly now that people are making them (for whatever reason). Thanks, I will remove the merge tags. -- Sadi Carnot 13:21, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi all, I plan to start this header. I keep finding these posts by random users writing in and asking if they are the same or if they are different. This issue needs to be addressed in an objective neutral point of view. Below is an example debate on this issue between four physicists:
Moreover, here is an informative article (pasted section) from that page (sourced from here) that exemplifies the confusion and the distinction between the two:
I will group this section below the Statistical Thermodynamics section, if anyone wants to re-place this somewhere else, I would have no objective; hopefully we can all chip in. More talk-page examples are below:
It's not a good idea to tip-toe around this issue as though it weren't there. The distinction between these two is a major issue that we need to address. I’ve linked to two talk pages now and one article where people have been confused about this and have written in trying to find the answer. I suggest that we provide this answer here, very clearly. Thanks: -- Sadi Carnot 13:42, 21 November 2006 (UTC)