This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Opening the talk page discussion on including Irish labor in the 1830s in New Orleans in an article about indenture in New France. First, the sources provided do not support the claim that these laborers were indentured. They were clearly exploited, but a reliable source is needed to assert that they were engagés. Second, the article is about a practice of New France. The 1830s are nearly three decades after the Sale of Louisiana and Louisiana had been a U.S. state for nearly 20 years. Before that, Spain had controlled Louisiana for four decades. Beyond that, indentured servitude in French Louisiana was common in the 1600s and early 1700s, but after the bursting of the Mississippi it appears to have declined as did immigration to the colony in general. Absent a reliable source that identifies this Irish labor as indentured servants (and specifically as indentured under the French engagé system), then it doesn't belong in this article. (When removing the text, I did place the sources on the New Basin Canal article.) — Carter (Tcr25) ( talk) 18:49, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
The edit to change the scope of the article to include the state of Louisiana still doesn't provide any reliable source for classifying Irish labor in the 1830s as indentured servants rather than as exploited immigrants. — Carter (Tcr25) ( talk) 18:59, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
The claim "Creoles often referred to engagés as "white slaves" and especially Germans were commonly sold as "white slaves" in Louisiana." fails verification. The source provided (in full: Ritter, Alexander (2008). "Louisiana, the New Egypt: Charles Sealsfield's Report from the 1820s". In Lowe, John (ed.). Louisiana Culture from the Colonial Era to Katrina. Baton Rouge, Louisiana: Louisiana State University Press. p. 68.) reads:
The fourth class, the Germans, live under circumstances of "self-contempt and an awareness of uselessness for society." Many of the were "being sold as white slaves." Without any comment the narrator summarizes, "Englishmen, Scots, and Iris normally get on fine" (1995, 196–97), obviously avoiding details and judgment because of the intended publication of his book in Great Britain.
This comes as part of Sealsfield's attempt to characterize the sociological structure of the New Orleans, which Ritter describes as "This presentation of a sociological structure, dictated by social status and rank, reminds the reader of European orders." Looking to the original source where the "being sold as white slaves" comes from (Sealsfield, Charles (1821). The Americans as They Are; Described in a tour through the valley of the Mississippi. London: Hurst, Chance, and Co. para. 175 – via Project Gutenbuerg.), Sealsfield wrote:
These people, without being possessed of the smallest resources, embarked eight or ten years ago, and after having lost one-half, or three-parts of their comrades during the passage, they were sold as white slaves, or as they are called, Redemptioners, the moment of their arrival. Thus mixed with the negroes in the same kind of labour, they experience no more consideration than the latter; and their conduct certainly deserves no better treatment. Those who did not escape, were driven away by their masters for their immoderate drinking; and all, with few exceptions, were glad to get rid of such dregs.
There's nothing in either source that supports the claim that Creoles often (or ever) used the phrase "white slaves" (in fact, Sealsfield points to the common term as being "Redemptioners"). Looking at the 1825 Civil Code of Louisiana, the word engagé is used in the French-language version of the code to describe both apprentices and those who have "vendu leurs services" / "sold their service" (Article 157, Nos. 2–3; English, p. 48; French, p. 49), differentiating them from those who hire themselves out as wage laborers (Article 147, No. 1). Both forms of engagé are clearly in the section on free servants (Title VI; Chapter 2), not the section on enslaved people (Title VI; Chapter 3). There are clear rules and parameters around bound servants and they have access to legal channels to break their contract, which slaves did not.
The claim "The children of engagés or petits habitants (Creole peasants) were sometimes abandoned and sold into slavery as whites slaves." seems to be designed to set up the mention of Sally Miller, implying that her case was a common one. This assertion is unsourced and the Sally Miller article does not make the claim that her situation (the orphaned child of Redemptioner who was apparently was sold into slavery by her father's contract-holder after her father died) was a common one. It's also worth noting that one of the reasons the Supreme Court of Louisiana found that Miller was to be freed was because she was white (per Wilson, Carol; Wilson, Calvin D. (1998). "White Slavery: An American Paradox". Slavery and Abolition. 19 (1): 5–6. doi: 10.1080/01440399808575226.). The Miller story also undercuts the prior claim that Germans were "commonly sold as 'white slaves'" in that Miller's owner had been cautioned she "was only to be kept a slave by great care" (Wilson & Wilson (1998), p. 6) because the seller and buyer were both aware she was white. While acknowledging the sources are anecdotal, Wilson & Wilson (1998) does allow that there likely was some white slavery (broadly in the South, not specifically in Louisiana) and that the most likely instances involved children like Miller who were orphaned and/or kidnapped. Regardless, this does not support the unsourced claims being made. — Carter (Tcr25) ( talk) 14:16, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
"Many of the indentured servants in Saint-Domingue were German settlers or Acadian refugees deported by the British from old Acadia during the French and Indian war."
The given source does not support the claim. The Acadian refugees recruited to settle in Môle-Saint-Nicolas where they were expected to settle and farm; however, the crown also demanded they labor on behalf of the crown to dredge a river and divert it's course. Since the crown was supporting the refugees and because the project would improve the lands allotted to them, they were impressed to complete the work.
Though no army forced them to work, nor did they suffer under slave discipline, Acadians knew a more subtle kind of coercion. Beholden to the French state for their subsistence and bound by the empire's gift of land, Acadians could scarcely generate any resistance, whether to break free of the settlement or simply to get out of unwanted work. In a moment of stress, Acadians at Môle tried to redefine their relationship to the new empire in terms of basic rights; the state's labor needs, however, made such rights difficult to establish. The River Saint Nicolas was in fact dredged, and hands accustomed to building dikes to wall out the frigid tides of Nova Scotia changed the foul, hot stream's course. They were not paid. (p. 127)
Although the source does note that some remained in Saint-Domingue bought land and "joined the ranks of slave owners" (p. 129), there's no indication they were indentured to other landowners to work on sugar plantations, as the section implies. Some Germans (fleeing from French colonization efforts in Guiana) did end up in Môle-Saint-Nicolas, but, again, there's no mention of indentured servitude in the source (p. 129). The larger effort to settle Germans in New France discussed in the source is around the Kourou River in Guiana. This was a settlement effort where people were provided passage, land, and support for three years until the colony could support itself, not a case of indentured servitude or engagés (p. 114).
The only mention of indentured servitude in the source states: "One witness described the results for Acadians as a 'bondage so harsh' — a condition that buttressed indentured servitude with state coercion, replaced expropriation with forced settlement, and mingled slavery with liberty." (p. 101). The footnote attributes that statement to Artur, Jacques-François (2002). Polderman, Marie (ed.). Histoire des colonies françoises de la Guianne. Petit-Bourg, West Indies: Ibis Rouge. p. 711., and while I haven't been able to see the full context of the statement (the Google Books snippet view shows only: "Un si dur esclavage (car un nègre même peut améliorer son sort, devenir libre et acquérir tous les droits des citoyens) ne pouvait que leur ôter le courage et les sentiments et ne leurs laisser d'audace que pour le crime, la désertion la révolte;" p. 711), it's unlikely to support the claim here since the book is about French colonization in Guiana, not Saint-Domingue. — Carter (Tcr25) ( talk) 17:11, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Opening the talk page discussion on including Irish labor in the 1830s in New Orleans in an article about indenture in New France. First, the sources provided do not support the claim that these laborers were indentured. They were clearly exploited, but a reliable source is needed to assert that they were engagés. Second, the article is about a practice of New France. The 1830s are nearly three decades after the Sale of Louisiana and Louisiana had been a U.S. state for nearly 20 years. Before that, Spain had controlled Louisiana for four decades. Beyond that, indentured servitude in French Louisiana was common in the 1600s and early 1700s, but after the bursting of the Mississippi it appears to have declined as did immigration to the colony in general. Absent a reliable source that identifies this Irish labor as indentured servants (and specifically as indentured under the French engagé system), then it doesn't belong in this article. (When removing the text, I did place the sources on the New Basin Canal article.) — Carter (Tcr25) ( talk) 18:49, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
The edit to change the scope of the article to include the state of Louisiana still doesn't provide any reliable source for classifying Irish labor in the 1830s as indentured servants rather than as exploited immigrants. — Carter (Tcr25) ( talk) 18:59, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
The claim "Creoles often referred to engagés as "white slaves" and especially Germans were commonly sold as "white slaves" in Louisiana." fails verification. The source provided (in full: Ritter, Alexander (2008). "Louisiana, the New Egypt: Charles Sealsfield's Report from the 1820s". In Lowe, John (ed.). Louisiana Culture from the Colonial Era to Katrina. Baton Rouge, Louisiana: Louisiana State University Press. p. 68.) reads:
The fourth class, the Germans, live under circumstances of "self-contempt and an awareness of uselessness for society." Many of the were "being sold as white slaves." Without any comment the narrator summarizes, "Englishmen, Scots, and Iris normally get on fine" (1995, 196–97), obviously avoiding details and judgment because of the intended publication of his book in Great Britain.
This comes as part of Sealsfield's attempt to characterize the sociological structure of the New Orleans, which Ritter describes as "This presentation of a sociological structure, dictated by social status and rank, reminds the reader of European orders." Looking to the original source where the "being sold as white slaves" comes from (Sealsfield, Charles (1821). The Americans as They Are; Described in a tour through the valley of the Mississippi. London: Hurst, Chance, and Co. para. 175 – via Project Gutenbuerg.), Sealsfield wrote:
These people, without being possessed of the smallest resources, embarked eight or ten years ago, and after having lost one-half, or three-parts of their comrades during the passage, they were sold as white slaves, or as they are called, Redemptioners, the moment of their arrival. Thus mixed with the negroes in the same kind of labour, they experience no more consideration than the latter; and their conduct certainly deserves no better treatment. Those who did not escape, were driven away by their masters for their immoderate drinking; and all, with few exceptions, were glad to get rid of such dregs.
There's nothing in either source that supports the claim that Creoles often (or ever) used the phrase "white slaves" (in fact, Sealsfield points to the common term as being "Redemptioners"). Looking at the 1825 Civil Code of Louisiana, the word engagé is used in the French-language version of the code to describe both apprentices and those who have "vendu leurs services" / "sold their service" (Article 157, Nos. 2–3; English, p. 48; French, p. 49), differentiating them from those who hire themselves out as wage laborers (Article 147, No. 1). Both forms of engagé are clearly in the section on free servants (Title VI; Chapter 2), not the section on enslaved people (Title VI; Chapter 3). There are clear rules and parameters around bound servants and they have access to legal channels to break their contract, which slaves did not.
The claim "The children of engagés or petits habitants (Creole peasants) were sometimes abandoned and sold into slavery as whites slaves." seems to be designed to set up the mention of Sally Miller, implying that her case was a common one. This assertion is unsourced and the Sally Miller article does not make the claim that her situation (the orphaned child of Redemptioner who was apparently was sold into slavery by her father's contract-holder after her father died) was a common one. It's also worth noting that one of the reasons the Supreme Court of Louisiana found that Miller was to be freed was because she was white (per Wilson, Carol; Wilson, Calvin D. (1998). "White Slavery: An American Paradox". Slavery and Abolition. 19 (1): 5–6. doi: 10.1080/01440399808575226.). The Miller story also undercuts the prior claim that Germans were "commonly sold as 'white slaves'" in that Miller's owner had been cautioned she "was only to be kept a slave by great care" (Wilson & Wilson (1998), p. 6) because the seller and buyer were both aware she was white. While acknowledging the sources are anecdotal, Wilson & Wilson (1998) does allow that there likely was some white slavery (broadly in the South, not specifically in Louisiana) and that the most likely instances involved children like Miller who were orphaned and/or kidnapped. Regardless, this does not support the unsourced claims being made. — Carter (Tcr25) ( talk) 14:16, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
"Many of the indentured servants in Saint-Domingue were German settlers or Acadian refugees deported by the British from old Acadia during the French and Indian war."
The given source does not support the claim. The Acadian refugees recruited to settle in Môle-Saint-Nicolas where they were expected to settle and farm; however, the crown also demanded they labor on behalf of the crown to dredge a river and divert it's course. Since the crown was supporting the refugees and because the project would improve the lands allotted to them, they were impressed to complete the work.
Though no army forced them to work, nor did they suffer under slave discipline, Acadians knew a more subtle kind of coercion. Beholden to the French state for their subsistence and bound by the empire's gift of land, Acadians could scarcely generate any resistance, whether to break free of the settlement or simply to get out of unwanted work. In a moment of stress, Acadians at Môle tried to redefine their relationship to the new empire in terms of basic rights; the state's labor needs, however, made such rights difficult to establish. The River Saint Nicolas was in fact dredged, and hands accustomed to building dikes to wall out the frigid tides of Nova Scotia changed the foul, hot stream's course. They were not paid. (p. 127)
Although the source does note that some remained in Saint-Domingue bought land and "joined the ranks of slave owners" (p. 129), there's no indication they were indentured to other landowners to work on sugar plantations, as the section implies. Some Germans (fleeing from French colonization efforts in Guiana) did end up in Môle-Saint-Nicolas, but, again, there's no mention of indentured servitude in the source (p. 129). The larger effort to settle Germans in New France discussed in the source is around the Kourou River in Guiana. This was a settlement effort where people were provided passage, land, and support for three years until the colony could support itself, not a case of indentured servitude or engagés (p. 114).
The only mention of indentured servitude in the source states: "One witness described the results for Acadians as a 'bondage so harsh' — a condition that buttressed indentured servitude with state coercion, replaced expropriation with forced settlement, and mingled slavery with liberty." (p. 101). The footnote attributes that statement to Artur, Jacques-François (2002). Polderman, Marie (ed.). Histoire des colonies françoises de la Guianne. Petit-Bourg, West Indies: Ibis Rouge. p. 711., and while I haven't been able to see the full context of the statement (the Google Books snippet view shows only: "Un si dur esclavage (car un nègre même peut améliorer son sort, devenir libre et acquérir tous les droits des citoyens) ne pouvait que leur ôter le courage et les sentiments et ne leurs laisser d'audace que pour le crime, la désertion la révolte;" p. 711), it's unlikely to support the claim here since the book is about French colonization in Guiana, not Saint-Domingue. — Carter (Tcr25) ( talk) 17:11, 9 November 2022 (UTC)