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The personal life section lists Elliot's pronouns as "he/him or they/them." In reality, his pronouns are "he/they," in accordance with their coming-out tweet. I would like to suggest a change in the description of Elliot's pronouns, perhaps phrasing it as "Elliot uses he/him and they/them pronouns (which he lists in his coming out letter as he/they [1])." ChaosTheory05 ( talk) 15:46, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
when people's pronouns are stated as "he/they" or "she/they" that means that one should use both pronoun sets- perhaps you had another source in mind? Newimpartial ( talk) 16:24, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
People may use multiple pronouns for a number of reasons- your suggestion that
some people might prefer that the addresser stick with one set or the otheris undoubtedly true, but is OR when applied to Page without a source. And I disagree that "and" communicates even this sense better than "or". Newimpartial ( talk) 16:44, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
Since Page came out as transgender on December 1, 2020, shouldn't the pronouns be she/her for dates before December 1, 2020, and only changed to he/him for dates on and after December 1, 2020? After all, Page still identified as a woman before December 1, 2020. For example, on February 14, 2014, Page identified as a gay woman, so it would be weird to say that "he identified as a gay woman."
2001:8003:D84C:4600:E949:D8F2:9EBF:8F22 ( talk) 15:58, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
@ SreySros: I see you've reverted my edit, arguing that Page's birth name is a hyphenated name. However, there is no indication anywhere in our article that he has ever had a different surname at all. I've consulted the web and there are various search results that confirm your memory – for example this one, which says that Page was known as E. Philpotts-Page early in his career. I'm not sure if The Canadian Encyclopedia is a RS, though, let alone correct (a complication is that this name is not necessarily the name found in the birth certificate from his childhood, nor the name he was known as in childhood, although it seems likely). Such a fact should be easily confirmable through top-quality sources, including printed books (Google Books has a number of hits, but even here care should be exerted because incorrect claims from Wikipedia can spill over to print). I'm puzzled that it is not included in the article yet. -- Florian Blaschke ( talk) 12:47, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
Daveout
(talk) 03:12, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
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please take out elliot’s dead name, for that is transphobic. “elliot was previously named [dead name] paige” 72.94.195.56 ( talk) 00:38, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
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Change the photo on his page to one of the photos from his Time Magazine photo shoot; I feel like this would be a more genuine and accurate reflection of who he is now rather than a photo of him from over half a decade ago. 2600:1702:3D90:C680:1541:2264:3CA5:75E3 ( talk) 08:40, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
Shouldn't we use an image that portrays Elliot's gender post coming out? Nicotine04 ( talk) 14:43, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
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Please remove the lines that say "Ellen Page." It is disrespectful to use his deadname. 2600:6C60:427F:F165:E43F:D70A:E8E6:42CD ( talk) 04:20, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
a living transgender or non-binary person's former name should be included in the lead sentence of their main biographical article only if they were notable under it, which Elliot Page was. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and this guideline exists to provide encyclopedic information and prevent confusion. ezlev tlk
Reading over the page, I noticed a couple of problems with the personal life section that I wasn't quite sure how to fix myself. Firstly, the sentence "The COVID-19 pandemic gave Page time and space to be transgender" seems slightly out of place with the rest of the text and I think it could probably be worked in better. Secondly, since Page and Portner are now divorced, should the sentence "His wife Emma Portner expressed support for him..." be altered to reflect that somehow? Redandsymmetry ( talk) 19:58, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
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Where it says “formerly” in parentheses — perhaps don’t mention his deadname? 64.222.235.174 ( talk) 17:03, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
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Requesting a change for this line:
Page explained his decision to speak openly about his gender identity was partially prompted by the COVID-19 pandemic, and partially by the anti-transgender rhetoric in politics and the news cycle.
To this:
Page explained that the decision to speak openly about his gender identity was partially prompted by the COVID-19 pandemic, and partially by the anti-transgender rhetoric in politics and the news cycle.
Requesting this change for grammar and text flow reasons. Techpriest Dominus ( talk) 12:50, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
{{
edit extended-protected}}
template. I think using "his decision" is better writing as it shows ownership and agency over the decision.
ScottishFinnishRadish (
talk) 13:24, 28 April 2021 (UTC)This
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Elliot Page has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Hi, I am requesting that you change Elliot Pages picture to a recent one. There are plenty. 2600:8801:9003:4500:9D11:14CE:237A:1106 ( talk) 17:05, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
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would you please update elliot's picture. one can be found here:
https://instagram.com/elliotpage?igshid=1v2fjogpdxsws
thanks 160.177.17.21 ( talk) 18:54, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
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The name needs to be corrected from Elliott to Ellen as well as the male gender pronouns need to be corrected to her female pronouns because she is a biological woman. 65.184.126.30 ( talk) 21:54, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
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Elliot Page should not be referred to as "formerly ellen" in his wiki page, this is what's called deadnaming and is extremely disrespectful to do to trans individuals, as it focuses on who they were known as before transition instead of who they are now. 173.233.4.172 ( talk) 08:43, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
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Looking to update the photo of Elliott Page now that they have transitioned from Ellen.
https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2021/04/elliot-page-finally-feels-able-to-just-exist/amp
https://time.com/5947032/elliot-page/ Johnzinck ( talk) 13:44, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
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Can you please update the photo for Elliot Page’s Wickepedia page. It is from 2015 and I think a current one is in order. Thank you. 47.54.142.153 ( talk) 13:52, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
New high profile photos of Page were published by Time, possible to update the article to use one of those in the infobox? they seem better representative of him. licensing may be a concern. anna328p // talk 23:21, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
Seems to align with NFCC anna328p // talk 12:05, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
Non-free content is used only where no free equivalent is available, or could be created, that would serve the same encyclopedic purpose.Emphasis mine. Assuming that we consider the photos that we have to not serve the same encyclopedic purpose of new photos of him, a free photo of Elliot Page in his current look can easily be created in the near future. – Muboshgu ( talk) 19:28, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
I agree that the current photo of Elliot Page in the infobox misrepresents him and should be updated to reflect the image he prefers to betray. I understand that the recent photos published in TIME magazine may not be the answer, due to copyright issues, but what of the images released from his recent interview with Oprah? Unfortunately, I'm not messaging with a solution to the picture issue, but as another voice in support of Mr. Page and the life he is finally able to display! I kindly place this request in hopes of sparking more time and energy spent on finding a replacement photo that works. I will also continue my search for possible solutions. Thanks!
SLP Gurl88 (
talk) 04:32, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
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Please consider changing Elliot's picture to a recent one of him after his transition. Keeping a picture of him pre-transition is incredibly harmful and can cause him dysphoria. It is contradictory to the page's protected status. 197.245.42.143 ( talk) 22:10, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
In recent interviews, Elliot has expressed a desire to be presented with photos that clearly showcase his gender identity. As such, I believe we should replace the current photo, with a more updated photo from 2021. Here is an image link. https://api.time.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/time-elliot-page-wynne-neilly-1.jpg
Regardless of moderators religious/political stances, we have a duty to use the most updated information/photos available to us in the creation/editing of articles. DavidJonBloom ( talk) 00:36, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
Since none of the recent editors seem to be seeing the FAQ associated with this talk page, and we are getting the same repetitious requests on Deadname and Pre-transition Images, I think we should have an Edit Notice appear whenever posting here. I was talking with an administrator and they thought it might help. Only administrators or page-movers can place it here. Something along the lines of: "Attention---Before editing, please consult the list of Frequently Asked Questions specific to this article. The FAQ specifically includes information on Deadname and Images." I also think the FAQ should be at the very bottom of the list of banners as opposed to the middle... it might stand out a bit more. Fyunck(click) ( talk) 20:35, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
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Change [source needed] after the sentence "He will next have voice roles in the upcoming films Naya Legend of the Golden Dolphin and Robodog." with the following source from W Magazine:
[1] C41nb31t ( talk) 03:46, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
References
{{
cite web}}
: CS1 maint: url-status (
link)
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remove formerly known as ellen page (deadnaming) 142.177.156.45 ( talk) 18:39, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
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Alternate between He and They because Elliot literally said their pronouns are he/they in his coming out post 75.111.225.74 ( talk) 04:41, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
{{
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template. Enby and trans folks will list multiple pronouns without the expectation they be used alternately.
EvergreenFir
(talk) 04:46, 26 May 2021 (UTC)Page uses he/him and they/them pronouns. This article uses masculine pronouns for consistency.ezlev tlk/ ctrbs 18:54, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
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delete reference to their deadname 86.176.176.175 ( talk) 18:08, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
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Request to change the photo associated with the page as it is an old photo and not representative of his gender identity. Lkjhgfdsa21 ( talk) 19:13, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
However, we do have the option of not including a photo in the infobox. MOS:LEADIMAGE says they "should be natural and appropriate representations" of the subject, and the current photo really isn't anymore: that isn't what he looks like now. It adds, "Lead images are not required, and not having a lead image may be the best solution if there is no easy representation of the topic." See Wendy Carlos, the Wachowskis as similar examples of trans people for whom we don't have a suitable post-transition photo that we have the rights to use in the infobox... so we don't. Page is more likely than those individuals to go to events where he can be photographed, so I expect that a suitable licensed photo of him will be forthcoming. In the meantime, I think that removing the 6-year-old pre-transition photo from the infobox would be more respectful of his self-identity. Note: I am not suggesting that other pre-transition photos be removed from the article... we shouldn't erase history like that. But the image in the infobox is a special case: for living persons it should generally reflect their current appearance. - Jason A. Quest ( talk) 13:56, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
I have undone the removal of the infobox photo. While a newer photo would be nice, we don't seem to have one. If someone would like to try to reach out to Page and get his agent to release a photo that'd be great. But in the interim I don't see anything obviously unsuitable about this image. He is presenting quite masculine, given the hat and button down. And for such a popular article, it should definitely have a photo. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n! ⚓ 16:06, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
In this edit, Abbyjjjj96 restored the category "Transgender and transsexual actors" (which I had removed) in addition to "Non-binary actors" (which I had added). I have no problem with this, except that Non-binary is a subcategory of the Transgender category (in terms of the WP cat structure for actors) so it is strictly redundant. I am well aware that Elliot identifies as Transgender, Transmasculine (per Time) and Non-binary, but my preference would be to include only the most detailed category/categories that can be reliably sourced. I was not convinced that Time's statement about his transmasculinity and Elliot's quoted identification as a "transgender guy" merited inclusion in "Transgender and transsexual male actors" in addition to "Non-binary actors", though I would have been convinced if Elliot or Time had made a more straightforward statement that Elliot identifies as a transgender man. Anyway, please discuss. :) Newimpartial ( talk) 19:36, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
They provide an exception to the general rule that pages are not placed in both a category and its subcategory: there is no need to take pages out of the parent category purely because of their membership of a non-diffusing subcategory. ... Subcategories defined by gender, ethnicity, religion, and sexuality should almost always be non-diffusing subcategories.I don't think non-binary would be an exception to the "almost always" there; the guideline is not tremendously helpful, but based on the description, I think the non-binary category fits the bill. So, assuming the question of sourcing has been dealt with (I feel that the Newsweek article is definitive enough, but that can be discussed more if necessary, I'm sure), I think we can have both the trans and the non-binary category at the same time. Writ Keeper ⚇ ♔ 20:52, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
According to the entry here, based on the Times article, Page's listed as a trans man. Yet he is also listed as non-binary in the categories. Aren't those mutually exclusive? Or am I unaware of something? Mcc1789 ( talk) 20:04, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
He also calls himself nonbinary and queer. Newimpartial ( talk) 20:06, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
We do not have a legal post-gender-transition photo of the subject; should the article's infobox use a) a pre-transition photo of the subject, b) a recent post-transition illustration of the subject, or c) no image? - Jason A. Quest ( talk) 02:21, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
Lead images should be natural and appropriate representations of the topic; they should not only illustrate the topic specifically, but also be the type of image used for similar purposes in high-quality reference works, and therefore what our readers will expect to see. Lead images are not required, and not having a lead image may be the best solution if there is no easy representation of the topic.When someone is widely-known to be transgender, a pre-transition image of them is no longer natural and appropriate (and not what many readers would expect to see.) Therefore, this falls under the "no easy representation of the subject" category, so we should omit an image. The drawing is fairly low quality and is not a good representation, but would be preferable to a pre-transition photograph. -- Aquillion ( talk) 08:28, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
It seems to me that the best use of our energy here is to focus on obtaining a more recent image rather than arguing at ever increasing length over which of the inferior options presently available is least inferior. To that end, I've emailed Page's agent using this form with a formal request that they use the OTRS Wizard to donate a photo. If I don't hear back and nothing shows up on OTRS after a little while, someone should try calling them at the number they list (212-645-4200) and seeing if that proves any more fruitful. After that, idk, maybe have someone tweet at Page and link it here so we can all like it to boost it enough for them to see it. {{u| Sdkb}} talk 17:05, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
a duty of Wikipedia editorsto put so much work into finding a new photo, it's not
Wikipedia's job to be the PR staff of anyone and to fly at beck and call to immediately change a page, and an editor
searching for a specific message with an imagecertainly would be
doing it wrong. But none of that is what happened here. What happened is that a few editors wanted the lede image to be a representative image of Page, as it is supposed to be, and did not feel that the existing image was suitably representative because it was clear from reliable sources that Page had significantly changed his physical appearance. So we tried to fix it, not because it was our
dutyor
Wikipedia's jobor because we were
searching for a specific messageor
dictating what Elliot is "supposed" to look like, but because we wanted to. With all that being said, I'm genuinely sorry that you seem to be upset by what you've decided was the motivation for the image change that took place in this article a few months ago. Note: In the interest of not flagellating a deceased equine, I have no intent to continue replying to this thread. ezlev ( user/ tlk/ ctrbs) 17:53, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
care about the violation of Wikipedia policy where this discussion had taken, which may well be true, but I honestly question is any wikipedia policy has been broken here, and if it has, I still think that is OK. I will elaborate on why. You mention
another Wikipedia policy, this isn't a news site. It isn't meant to be up to the minute., which seems to be the closest you have to a specific example of some sort of rule violation, but why don't we actually read WP:NOTNEWS? It opens with
Editors are encouraged to include current and up-to-date information within its coverage, the whole point of Wikipedia not being a newspaper is that we don't report on every single recent event, but rather on events of lasting significance. Elliot Page's article exists before they came out, as a major Hollywood star appearing in a number of large films, they have notability to justify an article on wikipedia, and their coming out and identifying as trans is not something fleeting, and is something otherwise well incorporated into the article, so having an image more representative of them now is merely part of that "up-to-date information", furthermore I think WP:HARM is quite relevant, we have from Page's own words in Time Magazine ( https://time.com/5947032/elliot-page/) in the very opening of it, it talks about the joy he took in cutting his hair short and being perceived more masculinely, and that their change to more feminine appearance was at the whims and demands of Hollywood, while Page could well change their appearance in the future, and they are well within their rights to do so, from the information we have at hand now, this seems to be more representative of how they wish to present their appearance, as opposed to how they have presented before coming out. Furthermore, by contacting Page either directly or through their agents, we stand the best chance of actually finding out how they wish to be perceived, as opposed to guessing blindly in the dark (note: this doesn't justify primary research, but having an freely useable photo available is hardly primary research! Many Wikipedia editors make graphics or take their own photos for articles after all!), by contrast if we choose to use a photo of them pre-coming out, could that not be interpreted as an assertion that we believe this is how they should look and be thought of as? Furthermore you say
You're also ironically being anti-trans because you're dictating what Elliot is "supposed" to look like, but honestly, guessing at how they would like to be perceived rather more falls into that trap, you (perhaps accidentally) come off as suggesting Elliot has an obligation to break gender moulds. They are free to, of course, but they are free to choose not to. Ultimately, asking what sort of image they'd like, and if they can make that available for use, is the only way to truly avoid this dictating. Ultimately, even if some policy has been broken, (which I don't believe is the case), I think this strongly falls into a case of the spirit of the law vs. the letter of the law, which WP:5P5 exists to remind us that the spirit is what takes precedence. 78.105.218.134 ( talk) 16:27, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
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Please remove Elliot Page's deadname from this article. It is harmful to not just them but to his coming out and other trans individuals who want to come out. He is not "formerly Deadname Page", they are Elliot Page and people should not know otherwise. Manuela.patricia2007 ( talk) 04:41, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
@ Newimpartial: The mention in my edit summary that supportive statements of Page previously coming out as gay weren't included was not the main point, but the only thing you addressed when you reverted me. Why are supportive statements necessary here at all? Abbyjjjj96 ( talk) 16:41, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
(I also think Bodney's reason for reverting Spy-cicle trimming Netflix's support may violate WP:NPOV?) Abbyjjjj96 ( talk) 16:43, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
The personal life section lists Elliot's pronouns as "he/him or they/them." In reality, his pronouns are "he/they," in accordance with their coming-out tweet. I would like to suggest a change in the description of Elliot's pronouns, perhaps phrasing it as "Elliot uses he/him and they/them pronouns (which he lists in his coming out letter as he/they [1])." ChaosTheory05 ( talk) 15:46, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
when people's pronouns are stated as "he/they" or "she/they" that means that one should use both pronoun sets- perhaps you had another source in mind? Newimpartial ( talk) 16:24, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
People may use multiple pronouns for a number of reasons- your suggestion that
some people might prefer that the addresser stick with one set or the otheris undoubtedly true, but is OR when applied to Page without a source. And I disagree that "and" communicates even this sense better than "or". Newimpartial ( talk) 16:44, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
Since Page came out as transgender on December 1, 2020, shouldn't the pronouns be she/her for dates before December 1, 2020, and only changed to he/him for dates on and after December 1, 2020? After all, Page still identified as a woman before December 1, 2020. For example, on February 14, 2014, Page identified as a gay woman, so it would be weird to say that "he identified as a gay woman."
2001:8003:D84C:4600:E949:D8F2:9EBF:8F22 ( talk) 15:58, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
@ SreySros: I see you've reverted my edit, arguing that Page's birth name is a hyphenated name. However, there is no indication anywhere in our article that he has ever had a different surname at all. I've consulted the web and there are various search results that confirm your memory – for example this one, which says that Page was known as E. Philpotts-Page early in his career. I'm not sure if The Canadian Encyclopedia is a RS, though, let alone correct (a complication is that this name is not necessarily the name found in the birth certificate from his childhood, nor the name he was known as in childhood, although it seems likely). Such a fact should be easily confirmable through top-quality sources, including printed books (Google Books has a number of hits, but even here care should be exerted because incorrect claims from Wikipedia can spill over to print). I'm puzzled that it is not included in the article yet. -- Florian Blaschke ( talk) 12:47, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
Daveout
(talk) 03:12, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
This
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Elliot Page has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
please take out elliot’s dead name, for that is transphobic. “elliot was previously named [dead name] paige” 72.94.195.56 ( talk) 00:38, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Elliot Page has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change the photo on his page to one of the photos from his Time Magazine photo shoot; I feel like this would be a more genuine and accurate reflection of who he is now rather than a photo of him from over half a decade ago. 2600:1702:3D90:C680:1541:2264:3CA5:75E3 ( talk) 08:40, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
Shouldn't we use an image that portrays Elliot's gender post coming out? Nicotine04 ( talk) 14:43, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Elliot Page has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please remove the lines that say "Ellen Page." It is disrespectful to use his deadname. 2600:6C60:427F:F165:E43F:D70A:E8E6:42CD ( talk) 04:20, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
a living transgender or non-binary person's former name should be included in the lead sentence of their main biographical article only if they were notable under it, which Elliot Page was. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and this guideline exists to provide encyclopedic information and prevent confusion. ezlev tlk
Reading over the page, I noticed a couple of problems with the personal life section that I wasn't quite sure how to fix myself. Firstly, the sentence "The COVID-19 pandemic gave Page time and space to be transgender" seems slightly out of place with the rest of the text and I think it could probably be worked in better. Secondly, since Page and Portner are now divorced, should the sentence "His wife Emma Portner expressed support for him..." be altered to reflect that somehow? Redandsymmetry ( talk) 19:58, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
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Where it says “formerly” in parentheses — perhaps don’t mention his deadname? 64.222.235.174 ( talk) 17:03, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request to
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Requesting a change for this line:
Page explained his decision to speak openly about his gender identity was partially prompted by the COVID-19 pandemic, and partially by the anti-transgender rhetoric in politics and the news cycle.
To this:
Page explained that the decision to speak openly about his gender identity was partially prompted by the COVID-19 pandemic, and partially by the anti-transgender rhetoric in politics and the news cycle.
Requesting this change for grammar and text flow reasons. Techpriest Dominus ( talk) 12:50, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
{{
edit extended-protected}}
template. I think using "his decision" is better writing as it shows ownership and agency over the decision.
ScottishFinnishRadish (
talk) 13:24, 28 April 2021 (UTC)This
edit request to
Elliot Page has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Hi, I am requesting that you change Elliot Pages picture to a recent one. There are plenty. 2600:8801:9003:4500:9D11:14CE:237A:1106 ( talk) 17:05, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Elliot Page has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
would you please update elliot's picture. one can be found here:
https://instagram.com/elliotpage?igshid=1v2fjogpdxsws
thanks 160.177.17.21 ( talk) 18:54, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Elliot Page has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The name needs to be corrected from Elliott to Ellen as well as the male gender pronouns need to be corrected to her female pronouns because she is a biological woman. 65.184.126.30 ( talk) 21:54, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Elliot Page has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Elliot Page should not be referred to as "formerly ellen" in his wiki page, this is what's called deadnaming and is extremely disrespectful to do to trans individuals, as it focuses on who they were known as before transition instead of who they are now. 173.233.4.172 ( talk) 08:43, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Elliot Page has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Looking to update the photo of Elliott Page now that they have transitioned from Ellen.
https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2021/04/elliot-page-finally-feels-able-to-just-exist/amp
https://time.com/5947032/elliot-page/ Johnzinck ( talk) 13:44, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Elliot Page has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Can you please update the photo for Elliot Page’s Wickepedia page. It is from 2015 and I think a current one is in order. Thank you. 47.54.142.153 ( talk) 13:52, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
New high profile photos of Page were published by Time, possible to update the article to use one of those in the infobox? they seem better representative of him. licensing may be a concern. anna328p // talk 23:21, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
Seems to align with NFCC anna328p // talk 12:05, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
Non-free content is used only where no free equivalent is available, or could be created, that would serve the same encyclopedic purpose.Emphasis mine. Assuming that we consider the photos that we have to not serve the same encyclopedic purpose of new photos of him, a free photo of Elliot Page in his current look can easily be created in the near future. – Muboshgu ( talk) 19:28, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
I agree that the current photo of Elliot Page in the infobox misrepresents him and should be updated to reflect the image he prefers to betray. I understand that the recent photos published in TIME magazine may not be the answer, due to copyright issues, but what of the images released from his recent interview with Oprah? Unfortunately, I'm not messaging with a solution to the picture issue, but as another voice in support of Mr. Page and the life he is finally able to display! I kindly place this request in hopes of sparking more time and energy spent on finding a replacement photo that works. I will also continue my search for possible solutions. Thanks!
SLP Gurl88 (
talk) 04:32, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
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Elliot Page has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please consider changing Elliot's picture to a recent one of him after his transition. Keeping a picture of him pre-transition is incredibly harmful and can cause him dysphoria. It is contradictory to the page's protected status. 197.245.42.143 ( talk) 22:10, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
In recent interviews, Elliot has expressed a desire to be presented with photos that clearly showcase his gender identity. As such, I believe we should replace the current photo, with a more updated photo from 2021. Here is an image link. https://api.time.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/time-elliot-page-wynne-neilly-1.jpg
Regardless of moderators religious/political stances, we have a duty to use the most updated information/photos available to us in the creation/editing of articles. DavidJonBloom ( talk) 00:36, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
Since none of the recent editors seem to be seeing the FAQ associated with this talk page, and we are getting the same repetitious requests on Deadname and Pre-transition Images, I think we should have an Edit Notice appear whenever posting here. I was talking with an administrator and they thought it might help. Only administrators or page-movers can place it here. Something along the lines of: "Attention---Before editing, please consult the list of Frequently Asked Questions specific to this article. The FAQ specifically includes information on Deadname and Images." I also think the FAQ should be at the very bottom of the list of banners as opposed to the middle... it might stand out a bit more. Fyunck(click) ( talk) 20:35, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
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Change [source needed] after the sentence "He will next have voice roles in the upcoming films Naya Legend of the Golden Dolphin and Robodog." with the following source from W Magazine:
[1] C41nb31t ( talk) 03:46, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
References
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remove formerly known as ellen page (deadnaming) 142.177.156.45 ( talk) 18:39, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
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Alternate between He and They because Elliot literally said their pronouns are he/they in his coming out post 75.111.225.74 ( talk) 04:41, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
{{
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template. Enby and trans folks will list multiple pronouns without the expectation they be used alternately.
EvergreenFir
(talk) 04:46, 26 May 2021 (UTC)Page uses he/him and they/them pronouns. This article uses masculine pronouns for consistency.ezlev tlk/ ctrbs 18:54, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
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delete reference to their deadname 86.176.176.175 ( talk) 18:08, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Elliot Page has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Request to change the photo associated with the page as it is an old photo and not representative of his gender identity. Lkjhgfdsa21 ( talk) 19:13, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
However, we do have the option of not including a photo in the infobox. MOS:LEADIMAGE says they "should be natural and appropriate representations" of the subject, and the current photo really isn't anymore: that isn't what he looks like now. It adds, "Lead images are not required, and not having a lead image may be the best solution if there is no easy representation of the topic." See Wendy Carlos, the Wachowskis as similar examples of trans people for whom we don't have a suitable post-transition photo that we have the rights to use in the infobox... so we don't. Page is more likely than those individuals to go to events where he can be photographed, so I expect that a suitable licensed photo of him will be forthcoming. In the meantime, I think that removing the 6-year-old pre-transition photo from the infobox would be more respectful of his self-identity. Note: I am not suggesting that other pre-transition photos be removed from the article... we shouldn't erase history like that. But the image in the infobox is a special case: for living persons it should generally reflect their current appearance. - Jason A. Quest ( talk) 13:56, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
I have undone the removal of the infobox photo. While a newer photo would be nice, we don't seem to have one. If someone would like to try to reach out to Page and get his agent to release a photo that'd be great. But in the interim I don't see anything obviously unsuitable about this image. He is presenting quite masculine, given the hat and button down. And for such a popular article, it should definitely have a photo. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n! ⚓ 16:06, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
In this edit, Abbyjjjj96 restored the category "Transgender and transsexual actors" (which I had removed) in addition to "Non-binary actors" (which I had added). I have no problem with this, except that Non-binary is a subcategory of the Transgender category (in terms of the WP cat structure for actors) so it is strictly redundant. I am well aware that Elliot identifies as Transgender, Transmasculine (per Time) and Non-binary, but my preference would be to include only the most detailed category/categories that can be reliably sourced. I was not convinced that Time's statement about his transmasculinity and Elliot's quoted identification as a "transgender guy" merited inclusion in "Transgender and transsexual male actors" in addition to "Non-binary actors", though I would have been convinced if Elliot or Time had made a more straightforward statement that Elliot identifies as a transgender man. Anyway, please discuss. :) Newimpartial ( talk) 19:36, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
They provide an exception to the general rule that pages are not placed in both a category and its subcategory: there is no need to take pages out of the parent category purely because of their membership of a non-diffusing subcategory. ... Subcategories defined by gender, ethnicity, religion, and sexuality should almost always be non-diffusing subcategories.I don't think non-binary would be an exception to the "almost always" there; the guideline is not tremendously helpful, but based on the description, I think the non-binary category fits the bill. So, assuming the question of sourcing has been dealt with (I feel that the Newsweek article is definitive enough, but that can be discussed more if necessary, I'm sure), I think we can have both the trans and the non-binary category at the same time. Writ Keeper ⚇ ♔ 20:52, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
According to the entry here, based on the Times article, Page's listed as a trans man. Yet he is also listed as non-binary in the categories. Aren't those mutually exclusive? Or am I unaware of something? Mcc1789 ( talk) 20:04, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
He also calls himself nonbinary and queer. Newimpartial ( talk) 20:06, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
We do not have a legal post-gender-transition photo of the subject; should the article's infobox use a) a pre-transition photo of the subject, b) a recent post-transition illustration of the subject, or c) no image? - Jason A. Quest ( talk) 02:21, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
Lead images should be natural and appropriate representations of the topic; they should not only illustrate the topic specifically, but also be the type of image used for similar purposes in high-quality reference works, and therefore what our readers will expect to see. Lead images are not required, and not having a lead image may be the best solution if there is no easy representation of the topic.When someone is widely-known to be transgender, a pre-transition image of them is no longer natural and appropriate (and not what many readers would expect to see.) Therefore, this falls under the "no easy representation of the subject" category, so we should omit an image. The drawing is fairly low quality and is not a good representation, but would be preferable to a pre-transition photograph. -- Aquillion ( talk) 08:28, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
It seems to me that the best use of our energy here is to focus on obtaining a more recent image rather than arguing at ever increasing length over which of the inferior options presently available is least inferior. To that end, I've emailed Page's agent using this form with a formal request that they use the OTRS Wizard to donate a photo. If I don't hear back and nothing shows up on OTRS after a little while, someone should try calling them at the number they list (212-645-4200) and seeing if that proves any more fruitful. After that, idk, maybe have someone tweet at Page and link it here so we can all like it to boost it enough for them to see it. {{u| Sdkb}} talk 17:05, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
a duty of Wikipedia editorsto put so much work into finding a new photo, it's not
Wikipedia's job to be the PR staff of anyone and to fly at beck and call to immediately change a page, and an editor
searching for a specific message with an imagecertainly would be
doing it wrong. But none of that is what happened here. What happened is that a few editors wanted the lede image to be a representative image of Page, as it is supposed to be, and did not feel that the existing image was suitably representative because it was clear from reliable sources that Page had significantly changed his physical appearance. So we tried to fix it, not because it was our
dutyor
Wikipedia's jobor because we were
searching for a specific messageor
dictating what Elliot is "supposed" to look like, but because we wanted to. With all that being said, I'm genuinely sorry that you seem to be upset by what you've decided was the motivation for the image change that took place in this article a few months ago. Note: In the interest of not flagellating a deceased equine, I have no intent to continue replying to this thread. ezlev ( user/ tlk/ ctrbs) 17:53, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
care about the violation of Wikipedia policy where this discussion had taken, which may well be true, but I honestly question is any wikipedia policy has been broken here, and if it has, I still think that is OK. I will elaborate on why. You mention
another Wikipedia policy, this isn't a news site. It isn't meant to be up to the minute., which seems to be the closest you have to a specific example of some sort of rule violation, but why don't we actually read WP:NOTNEWS? It opens with
Editors are encouraged to include current and up-to-date information within its coverage, the whole point of Wikipedia not being a newspaper is that we don't report on every single recent event, but rather on events of lasting significance. Elliot Page's article exists before they came out, as a major Hollywood star appearing in a number of large films, they have notability to justify an article on wikipedia, and their coming out and identifying as trans is not something fleeting, and is something otherwise well incorporated into the article, so having an image more representative of them now is merely part of that "up-to-date information", furthermore I think WP:HARM is quite relevant, we have from Page's own words in Time Magazine ( https://time.com/5947032/elliot-page/) in the very opening of it, it talks about the joy he took in cutting his hair short and being perceived more masculinely, and that their change to more feminine appearance was at the whims and demands of Hollywood, while Page could well change their appearance in the future, and they are well within their rights to do so, from the information we have at hand now, this seems to be more representative of how they wish to present their appearance, as opposed to how they have presented before coming out. Furthermore, by contacting Page either directly or through their agents, we stand the best chance of actually finding out how they wish to be perceived, as opposed to guessing blindly in the dark (note: this doesn't justify primary research, but having an freely useable photo available is hardly primary research! Many Wikipedia editors make graphics or take their own photos for articles after all!), by contrast if we choose to use a photo of them pre-coming out, could that not be interpreted as an assertion that we believe this is how they should look and be thought of as? Furthermore you say
You're also ironically being anti-trans because you're dictating what Elliot is "supposed" to look like, but honestly, guessing at how they would like to be perceived rather more falls into that trap, you (perhaps accidentally) come off as suggesting Elliot has an obligation to break gender moulds. They are free to, of course, but they are free to choose not to. Ultimately, asking what sort of image they'd like, and if they can make that available for use, is the only way to truly avoid this dictating. Ultimately, even if some policy has been broken, (which I don't believe is the case), I think this strongly falls into a case of the spirit of the law vs. the letter of the law, which WP:5P5 exists to remind us that the spirit is what takes precedence. 78.105.218.134 ( talk) 16:27, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
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Please remove Elliot Page's deadname from this article. It is harmful to not just them but to his coming out and other trans individuals who want to come out. He is not "formerly Deadname Page", they are Elliot Page and people should not know otherwise. Manuela.patricia2007 ( talk) 04:41, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
@ Newimpartial: The mention in my edit summary that supportive statements of Page previously coming out as gay weren't included was not the main point, but the only thing you addressed when you reverted me. Why are supportive statements necessary here at all? Abbyjjjj96 ( talk) 16:41, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
(I also think Bodney's reason for reverting Spy-cicle trimming Netflix's support may violate WP:NPOV?) Abbyjjjj96 ( talk) 16:43, 6 June 2021 (UTC)