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2009 Information

Resolved

 – Trolling.

... the whole idea look like dope-addled tosh! I refer to the two lists of eight under the "Eight circuits" heading. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.108.130.31 ( talk) 14:05, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Resolved

 – Clearly biased statements removed from article.

With unverified statements like, "The 8-circuit model is perhaps one of the most accurate and elegant representations of human consciousness" I think it needs to be checked for neutrality, and possibly weasel words. 68.216.106.168 ( talk) 09:15, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. The entire article is a mess. I have done my best to remove some of the POV fluff from the first section as a start on the article as a whole; I'm finding it difficult to locate sources for the claims being made but am reluctant to remove things altogether. Could the editors who inserted the unsourced content ("Critics say...", "it is claimed...") possibly provide some source for what they're saying?

My edit was mostly intended to remove some of the more ludicrously POV commentary, such as the following:

The merit of this system lies in its ability to integrate the two quartets well. Most theories deal with one or the other, but not both – mundane psychology does not entertain ideas of transcendent or mystical experience and it has only recent categories such as Spiritual Emergency.

This is an encyclopedia article describing the model, not a personal commentary on its merits and flaws. Provide cites (I am going to seek some out when I have a moment) and keep it neutral. ElijahOmega ( talk) 12:15, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

2010 Information

[No 2010 or later threads have been archived yet.]

Unresolved

 – Article still badly needs copy editing as of date=August 2011.

Largely for clarity, style, and good old intelligibility. Neutrality remains a problem for this page, IMO, as the only references are from those who propose the 'model' themselves. There also a biased undertone in favor of the use psychedelic drugs, NLP, and what I would call (generously) 'alternative philosophies.' Claims about related 'techniques' are problematic. Why isn't religion included, of which 'Crowleyan magic' is just one form? I'm not even sure how I got to this page, but I'm pretty sure the article I linked to it from has almost nothing to do with Leary's 'theory.' If the authors re-edit this page, please resist using idiosyncratic language and punctuation, particularly capitalization. 173.21.106.137 ( talk) 05:55, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

I've worked on the capitalization some, but this entire article badly needs copyediting even further than I've gone. There are innumerable cases of grammar errors, poor logical sentence flow, etc., etc. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 21:07, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Unresolved

 – Article has been tagged as badly needing sourcing improvement for a long time.

This article is very poorly sourced by the standards of WP:V, WP:RS and WP:CITE. The main problem is that the bulk of the article is just allegedly sourced by a pile of "references" dumped in "Bibliography", with no indication what statements are sourced by what works, further compounded by innumerable editors, most of the anonymous, changing things willy-nilly over several years of now-resolved neutrality turmoil, such that material that once may have been sourced to a specific reference has had numerous interpolations from other (usually unknown) source, been moved, and otherwise altered without the references being kept up to what little extent they can be kept up with proper footnote citations per WP:CITE, AND other "references" have been added that are not necessarily pertinent, reliable or useful, per WP:RS. The upshot being that large amounts of this article could simply be legitimately deleted per policy at WP:V, as unsourced, especially given how long they've been tagged and how much debate this article was seeing several years ago. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 21:07, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm going to suggest that this article be chopped up to remove anything that cannot be given a reliable source, and whatever is left over should be turned into a (thoroughly NPOV) section in either the Tim Leary article, or the Prometheus Rising article.

Other than that, I see no reason why this article shouldn't be nominated for deletion, since it has remained in violation of WP:GNG for some time, with no improvement. Both of the sources this article relies most on are primary. Most of the others appear to be part of a personal website.

On a personal note, besides violating NPOV in language and content, and its subject's doubtful notability, this article is very sloppy work. Undiskedste ( talk) 04:46, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

I have decided to remove the Psychology tag from this talk page because of concerns that the article presents a pseudoscientific formulation as a genuine theory in psychology. No sources have been cited to indicate that this model has ever been seriously discussed or even mentioned in any reputable psychology journal or textbook, even to discredit it. Therefore, in spite of its pretensions to be a model of consciousness, I don't think this belongs in the psychology category, any more than, say, palmistry does.-- Smcg8374 ( talk) 03:56, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Has anyone, anywhere, done a proper scientific investigation or even discussion of this model? I've had a cursory look but can't find a thing - David Gerard ( talk) 16:36, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Stale

 – Editorial & sourcing suggestions made, but not followed up even a year later.

The names of the circuits in this article do not correspond with my recollection from reading Prometheus Rising 8 or 9 years ago. For instance, why doesn't the article apply the terms oral and anal. Also, Wilson's spectacular lecture "How to Tell Your Friends From the Apes" really ought to be a reference for this article. __ meco ( talk) 13:52, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, the order is different from prometheus rising. However, Wilson later changed his version back to learys (i.e. 7. metaprogramming -> 6. metaprogramming , and 6 neurogenetic circuit --> 7)[around 1996 in Quantum Psychology.] Although the order may have not survived the test of time, Wilson still detailed each circuit brilliantly in Prometheus rising.

I will probably add the terms anal, oral, and as well as others used in prometheus rising to the article sooner or later.

Also, never heard of that lecture. I ought to check it out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by James Brown Nine ( talk • contribs) 23:20, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Regardless of his difference of the 6th and 7th circuit in "Prometheus Rising" versus "Quantum Psychology", Wilson still uses the same names for the 1st and 2nd circuit in both books. He names the first circuit "The oral bio-survival circuit", and the second circuit "The anal emotional territorial circuit" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dpowell787b ( talk • contribs) 04:27, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Why is Christopher S. Hyatt mentioned at all? I'm faintly familiar with his work (as a skeptic of it and other stuff like it). He seems to generate mystical/occult/magic[k] books by the dozen, on topics all over the map from Crowleyan Thelema to "Western Tantra" whatever that's supposed to be (I guess that's something like Chinese St. Patrick's Day and Papua New Guinean peyote ceremonies?). I'm having a hard time tracking down any connection at all between the eight-circuit model and Hyatt. Just because Hyatt knew Leary and Wilson at least peripherally, published an interview with Leary, and has been in anthologized publications with both other authors doesn't mean he's connected pro, con or at all to the topic of this article. I'm therefore tempted to delete his mention, unless someone's got a citation to something. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 05:25, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Hyatt has contributed to the model in his book "Undoing Yourself". - Dpowell787b ( talk) 04:47, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

This is literally a made-up hypothesis with zero evidence ever, though slight popularity in the pre-New Age Human Potential Movement culture of the 1970s - but the same would apply to astrology, for instance. How does this fit into "transhumanism" per se? Is there evidence of it gaining popularity in the transhumanist subculture as such? - David Gerard ( talk) 10:25, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

I can see a relation through Leary's interest in SMI2LE - Leary represents psychedelic 60's transhumanism fairly well. After all, transhumanism seeks to achieve higher states of evolution, and this does not have to be through just technology (Leary would have countered that LSD and various training methods are of course just as much technology as any enhancer or mental exercise). A fair number of transhumanists have a passing acquaintance with the model. mostly through RAW. Still, I think few if any of the transhumanists I have interacted with actually *believe* in the model. Anders Sandberg ( talk) 00:08, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

This article should not be affiliated with Transhumanism. Although there are many correlations in regards to the evolution of the human species with both Transhumanism and the Eight-circuit model of consciousness, the association can mislead readers on both ends of each subject. Dpowell787b ( talk) 08:18, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Unresolved

 – The article is based entirely around a primary source bolstered by non-specific references to other questionable sources. It makes outlandish claims without any regard for scientific consensus.=February 2012.

You know this kind of science is technically unethical? (considering that it involves illegal, harmfully addictive drugs?) Surely there is criticism of Leery SOMEWHERE. Tcaudilllg ( talk) 05:41, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Criticism of Leary and Leary's stance on mind-altering drugs would be different than criticism of the model. The purpose of the model itself was never to encourage the use of any drug at all but rather to outline the different stages of consciousness in primate evolution and their biological foundations and advancements throughout time. The only reason drugs were mentioned in the model at all was Leary and Robert Anton Wilson theorized certain chemicals provoked such forms of consciousness mentioned in the model. The model was never intended to be pro-drug or anti-drug. If you want to criticize Leary's stance on drugs, do it in the Timothy Leary article. 72.240.112.36 ( talk) 01:05, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

As of the moment, I cannot find any criticism of this model at all. In the past, this article had criticism incorporated in it, but it was always removed because it contained original research. 72.240.112.36 ( talk) 17:39, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps mainstream psychologists/neuroscientists consider it unworthy of their attention? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tcaudilllg ( talk • contribs) 17:27, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

This is a discussion for improving the article, not a forum for you to express your opinions. If you have anything else to say, it should be directed at improving the article. 72.240.112.36 ( talk) 05:31, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

This article, in its present form, is proselytizing a non-verifiable contrivance, and alluding to it as a "theory". It is not a theory, as it is not a structure designed to explain a set of empirical observations; what observations could possibly concern "information from beyond ordinary space-time awareness which is limited by the speed of light"?

The sentence, "Leary may have received the basic idea for this system from an anthropologist" attempts to lend scientific credibility through hearsay.

The sentence beginning, "The 8 Circuit model seems to provide a conglomerate model of a series of preceding and interconnecting models within some of the human and medical sciences..." attempts to connect the construct to accepted scientific fields, where there is no connection. Citations should be provided if there are any available.

This article is pseudo-science; it has no supporting evidence, contradicts itself, falls far short of meaningful modeling, and many components are flat out non-verifiable. Recommend deletion as complete bollocks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.93.219.192 ( talk) 01:37, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the the article smacks of psudo-science, but so does Freud's tripartite model of consciousness, astrology, phlogiston etc. While Leary's model, Freud's, astrology, and phlogiston are generally ignored by the scientific and academic community today, they have been influential for various fringe or non-academic groups. Thus, the article should certainly not be deleted. Also, this discussion section appears to be a call for references to published criticism of the model. I'd be very interested if any such criticism exists as well... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.56.112.48 ( talk) 04:36, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

NB: Actually, all of those ideas were very influential in academic and non-fringe circles for their memetic lifespans, too. Many scientific and quasi-scientific ideas are questionable but influential and lead to improved ideas. E.g., I'd rather have an ancient Greek doctor who thought in terms of leeching, "bodily humours" and "bad air" than a tribal shaman who saw everything in terms of the will and influence of various spirits and totem animals or a Dark Age exorcist who thought my ailments were the work of Satanic possession or my own witchcraft. Human wisdom is a perpetually step-wise process (sometimes backwards for a bit as my examples indicate). — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 21:07, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Over two years later, most of this is no longer applicable, since the article text has been improved. I'm marking this as {{ resolved}}, though not archiving it yet, in case someone wants to read through it and re-examine the article to see if they feel all the issues flagged here were legimitate problems and have all been fixed (seems that way to me on both counts). I'd suggest posting a new thread about any perceived problem. The vast majority of editors & readers with an issue or two about this article have made article improvement (the actual purpose of talk pages at Wikipedia, which is not a forum) difficult because their posts have mostly been prefaced with or buried under attacks/complaints with regard to Leary, drugs, and/or the validity of his consciousness model as science (I've yet to see anyone cite him saying it was science, actually...), leading inexorably to rancorous debates about pseudoscience, the counterculture, etc., and everything but article improvement. So, please raise issues in a focused manner so they can be more quickly resolved without flamey off-topic arguments about dope, epistemology and spirituality, please. I've moved the bulk of that noise to the archive pages. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 21:07, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

• I am again marking this as unresolved because I just read half of a sloppy article. That's all there was to read: a non-npov, non-cited mess. A criticism section alone would be insufficient to remedy these deficiencies. Links to evidence of claims, language clearly identifying the context of the claims, and neutral (tertiary) analysis - all of these need to be incorporated into the lead and body of the text. Next would be an spov criticism section. It shouldn't be too hard to find sources in physics journals to completely discredit at least half of the claims mentioned in this model. Spiritual components and stipulations in addition to literary works based on the model must also be treated to yet another section. A good treatment of Leary's work would also benefit from page references, perhaps quotation notes. I am sorry to say that the problems in the article are systemic. ˉˉ ^anetode ╦╩ 07:56, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm afraid that what you are asking for here is broadly outside Wikipedia's remit. It is not for editors to find and cite primary material that might discredit various aspects of Leary's theory. That would be original research by synthesis. If there is no secondary literature criticising the model, for whatever reason, then there cannot be a criticism section. We cannot fill in the criticism ourselves, only report what others have said about the theory, and this does not include things that other people have said that we might think relevant to the theory unless the connection has been drawn in a reliable source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.226.37.177 ( talk) 09:26, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

I absolutely agree that this article has huge problems with NPOV, citations, and original research that is not from any of the authors. Beyond the first paragraph, the entire article needs to be fact checked. With that being said, I've just reversed an edit added to the page about the validity of this model being scientific. Leary has stated that this model is of scientific theories "based off of empirical findings" in various areas of science. (Info-Psychology, pg. 8) Again, a large portion of the content on the page is not his work at all. Please add content with citations from the authors, not criticism and opinions. Dpowell787b ( talk) 10:21, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

• Info-Psychology (revised from Exo-Psychology) By Timothy Leary (one of Leary's complete final works on the Eight-circuit model)

Note there are differences in page numbers between prints! (found difference in page numbers between 3rd printing(1992) and 7th printing(2011) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dpowell787b ( talk • contribs) 12:40, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

• Exo-Psychology by Timothy Leary. (First major work on the Eight-circuit model of consciousness)
• Evolutionary Agents by Timothy Leary. (one of Leary's last works completed on the Eight-circuit model)
• Game of Life by Timothy Leary with contributions by Robert Anton Wilson
• Prometheus Rising by Robert Anton Wilson
• Quantum Psychology by Robert Anton Wilson
• Angel Tech by Antero Alli. Forward by Robert Anton Wilson. (with reference to Info-Psychology as Leary's work on the Eight-circuit model)
• The Eight-Circuit Brain by Antero Alli (one of the most recent books published on the Eight-circuit model)
• Neurologic?
• Neuropolitics?

"Info-Psychology" from Leary, "Prometheus Rising" from Wilson, and "The Eight-Circuit Brain" from Alli, should be the first reference from each author. Each of these works are non-fiction and have the largest content of the Eight-circuit model in each of the books to the corresponding authors. There is no story, characters(only for examples), or other elements to claim they were written in fiction. Dpowell787b ( talk) 10:40, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

• Basic description - all 3 stages for each circuit
• Where is the suggested imprint in ontogeny?
• When is the suggested period in evolution where the circuit emerged?

This list is similar to structure in Leary's books on how he made points on each circuit. Each author mentioned does suggest 24 stages for the circuits. 3 stages for 8 circuits. This should be highly noted.

Wilson and Alli had other takes on the circuits, with different chapter structure to each circuit. For example, a chapter for each circuit included base description, compare and contrast, examples, suggestions, and exercises.

The following list were points to be covered were based on someone's interpretation of Wilson's work. If we were to ask "What methods activate it?" Each author would answer differently. Alli did not suggest drugs for "circuit activation", and contrary to belief, Leary does not suggest a particular drug for each individual circuit. He suggests some drugs for reception of some circuits. Example: Stage 16 neuro-electric drugs (Game of Life, pg 191 or Info-Psychology, pg 124) Dpowell787b ( talk) 07:44, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

• Basic description
• When is it imprinted?
• What imprints are possible?
• When did it evolve?
• What methods activate it?

Unresolved

 – No source provided.

Leary did not create the Eight Circuit Model ( http://deoxy.org/8origins.htm), as it comes from Hindu Tantra philosophy. Therefore, you can call Leary's theory "pseudoscientific" just as much as you can say that Tantra is pseudoscience. Of course, saying this would be nonsense, because these things are completely unrelated to Cartesian science, both in space and time: which means that you can't say that they pretend to be it. I've seen this kind of discussion happening in several articles, and it resulted in the deletion of the Timewave Zero article - because, you know, the I Ching, which was invented 2800 BCE, does not meet the methods of a guy who was born on the 16th century. If anything, this reveals some cultural bias in Wikipedia users. 187.54.91.216 ( talk) 13:57, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Leary's 8 circuits are a PHILOSOPHY. They may be applicable in psychology, but philosophy's what they are. I agree with the user's comment above mine. The 8 circuits can also be mapped on to the days of the week. 1 Moonday (everythings new and magical, what do i need?), 2 Tuesday (teuton tribe, the Teus, god of the tribe Toutatis, let's gain some power/status by joining a gang/tribe), 3 Wodensday (Woden/Odin, the all-father, 'the Word was god and the word was with god' etc, let's rationalise everything with respect to our tribal chief, believe in the leader/law, for personal gain and stability) 4 thorsday (The god Thor, male sexuality, moving heaven and earth for sex, I'll be sensitive to your needs and rational, as long as you don't touch my ego), 5 freiaday (Goddess freia, mature female sexuality, empathetic, I'll be attracted to you if you look like you can take care of my yet to be born child, i'll take care of your ego as long as you can take care of my child), 6 Saturnday (the god saturn, the sober judge, the philosopher, scientist, the one who understands both masculine and feminine perspectives and thinks with clarity), 7 Sunday (The Son/sun, the mystic/magician/shaman, the true artist communicating with a magical effect, spreading the enlightenment gained on previous circuit, wearing different egos, is everyone to everyone, iconic). the 8th circuit is Gaia consciousness, and you don't need to worry about days if you're the earth itself spinning on it's axis, night/day is happening at the same time. Hence non-local. this makes sense to me, because it fits in with so much ancient stuff, yet Leary's concept of what the circuits mean doesn't quite seem to align with this interpretation, which tells me that he probably got this stuff from a source that DID make more sense, as opposed to 'virtually creating' the thing.

Natmanprime ( talk) 22:22, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

That some nice original research we can't use. Even the suggestion that Leary was inspired by chakras and yoga has yet to be sourced. We can't be adding more such stuff without it coming from independent, reliable, published sources. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 21:07, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

From what I can tell he was just paraphrasing Prometheus Rising. Not original research. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.100.79.42 ( talk) 10:45, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

This is a false claim for origin, yet still holds some relevance. The Deoxy website ( http://deoxy.org/8origins.htm) has parts and chapters in the book "What does WoMan want", which is a work of fiction from Timothy Leary. This is the main resource used in this confusion. Leary does show inspiration from the Hindu system, chakras, yoga, and various other sources in the book "Game of Life" on pages 18, 34, and 46. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dpowell787b ( talk • contribs) 03:45, 25 November 2016 (UTC)