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User:Tom Reedy has asked me to note, as an un-involved editor, that the discussion about the above-described topic at WP:RSN appears to have reached a suitable compromise concerning how to report De Vere's patronage. Hope that helps.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 10:40, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
Relevant. Tom Reedy ( talk) 13:29, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
Irrelevant Nishidani ( talk) 13:34, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
On the question of whether Monstrous Adversary is a reliable source, another instance of factual inaccuracy. On p. 37, Alan states that Oxford's tutor was 'Lawrence Nowell, Dean of Lichfield. The entry for Oxford's tutor, Laurence Nowell, in the online edition of The Dictionary of National Biography states that the antiquary Laurence Nowell (Oxford's tutor) was a different person from the Lawrence Nowell who was Dean of Lichfield. Errors of this nature (and there are many of them) all into question whether Monstrous Adversary can be cited as a reliable source. Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 20:20, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
Alan doesn't want to know about the errors in his book. When it was first published, he set up a page on his website at which readers could post errors noted in his book, but he almost immediately shut it down. Nor does Alan want to know about the errors in Pearson's book because he simply incorporated her findings about Oxford's income and finances into Monstrous Adversary. When I first discovered the Latin document which Pearson had misinterpreted, and which led her to erroneously assign to Oxford an inherited income almost twice that which the extant documents show he actually did inherit (and then to speculate about the 'black hole' into which that imaginary income disappeared to :-), I told Alan about it. He didn't want to hear about it, and cut off all contact. Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 21:14, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
As I mentioned before, my objective is to make the article as factually accurate as possible. Alan's book can be cited for certain facts, but it contains far more errors than are acceptable in a scholarly work, and for that reason it can only be cited with caution, and after having cross-checked Alan's statements against other sources, including the sources Alan quotes (see, for example, how Alan distorted the quotation from Fenelon which I just mentioned). You and I got off on the wrong foot, and I'm hoping we can work together to make the article as factually accurate as possible. I'm surprised at the amount of reading you indicate you've done on the topic. That's very commendable, if I might be permitted that comment. You're not editing off the top of your head. Nor am I. I've put in thousands of hours trying to get at the facts about Oxford. This research has little to do with the authorship aspect. It has to do primary with the historical documents which form Oxford's 'biography'. Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 21:30, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
I note there is no source for this statement in the article: 'In later years Burghley was to upbraid Oxford frequently for his prodigal extravagance.' Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 19:34, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
Good. Thanks. Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 20:43, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
In later years we shall find Lord Burghley continually upbraiding Lord Oxford for his extravagance.B. M. Ward, The seventeenth Earl of Oxford, 1550-1604: from contemporary documents 1928,John Murray, London 1928, p.31
Even the DNB had the identification wrong until recent years. See the new entry for the antiquary Laurence Nowell in the online edition of the DNB. Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 17:21, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
This belongs both under this heading, and under the heading Additional Errors in Monstrous Adversary above: 'Cecil, who had risen to Baron Burghley by February, was displeased with the arrangement'(i.e. Oxford's betrothal to Anne Cecil). The page reference given in the article is to p. 71 of Monstrous Adversary, and I assume the reference is intended to e to Alan's misquotation of a letter from the French ambassador, Fenelon. The letter is transcribed and translated on my website (see Fenelon, July 1571 on the Documents page). Alan has erroneously inserted the name [Burghley] into his quotation from the letter, thereby stating that Burghley had told Fenelon he was not happy to see Anne, at her age, brought to church to marry the Earl of Oxford. In fact Fenelon is referring to what the Queen told him (Fenelon) about her own pretended reluctance to marry Alencon, since he was 'the age of the Earl of Oxford' whereas she herself was much older. Surely Wikipedia does not wish to direct readers of this article to an error this egregious in nature. Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 20:56, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
I'm wondering whether we can take the Fenelon citation step by step to see whether a compromise can be arrived at. Firstly, on pp.62-3 Ward quotes Lord Burghley's letter in connection with Oxford's betrothal to Anne Cecil to the effect that Burghley thinks well of Oxford and 'honour him so dearly from my heart as I do my own son', so Alan's reference to Fenelon is suspect from the outset. Secondly, historians are well aware that Fenelon's correspondence is in French, so Alan's quotation on p.71 in English while citing in his endnotes a source which is in French (Correspondance, iv. p. 186) is also suspect from the outset. Even Wikipedia's rules must allow for questioning of a cited source which is in another language from the quotation alleging given from that source. Thirdly, the letter in question is from Corresponance, which is itself a published work, and therefore Wikipedia editors can take cognizance of it. Fourthly, the letter in question is from Fenelon to Queen Catherine de Medici, and the words in question (taken from Corresponance) read:
Madame, en discourant avec la Royne d’Angleterre des choses que je mande en la lettre du Roy, nous sommes, de propos en propos, venuz à parler du pourtraict de Monseigneur vostre filz, et elle m’a dict qu’encor que ce ne soit que le créon, et que son teint n’y soit que quasi tout chafouré de charbon, si ne layssoit ce visaige de monstrer beaucoup de beaulté et beaucoup de merques de dignité et de prudence; et qu’elle avoit esté bien ayse de le veoyr ainsy meur comme d’ung homme parfaict, car me vouloit dire tout librement que mal vollontiers, estant de l’eage qu’elle est, eust elle vollu estre conduict à l’esglise pour estre maryée avec ung qui se fût monstré aussi jeune comme le comte d’Oxfort
There is no way in which a letter which begins, Madame, in discussing with the Queen of England, who told me thus and so can be turned into a letter in which Lord Burghley told me so and so, as Alan's interpolation of Lord Burghley's name into the letter has done.
The point is that the statement in the article doesn't need to be made, and since it doesn't need to be made, it can be removed if the sources on which allegedly rests turn out not to support it, no? Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 17:33, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
Have the editors of this page considered adding something about Oxford's participation in the Frobisher expedition and in Adrian Gilbert's Colleagues of the Fellowship for the Discovery of the North West Passage (Ward pp. 236-41, Nelson, pp. 187-9)? The topic has historical interest, and also explains where some of Oxford's capital went. Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 23:48, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
Would you be interested in writing something on that topic? Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 14:42, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
That's unfortunate. Just when we were getting somewhere. Maybe the ban could be lifted? Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 15:48, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
Well, before you go away, let me wish you the best. Hope you have a great holiday. I'll probably give the article a rest until you return. Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 19:30, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
Taking into consideration some of the remarks above, in addition to points raised generally over the past month.
(a) Add source as per Nina Green's request for the line:-
'In later years Burghley was to upbraid Oxford frequently for his prodigal extravagance.'
Nishidani is right. I now see that Ward does say on p. 31 that 'In later years we shall find Lord Burghley continually upbraiding Oxford for his extravagance'. Ward doesn't, so far as I know, provide references later in his book which would justify his use of the phrase 'continually upbraiding', but nonetheless, that's exactly what he says on p. 31. Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 17:17, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
(b) 'the sixth son of Sir Thomas Tyrrell of East Horndon' can be elided (an unnecessary specification in any case') or it should be prefaced by 'according to some sources'.
(c)The words in the lead, 'participated in military campaigns in the Northern Rebellion (1569)' are misleading as I noted above and on LessHeard vanU's page.
(d) The section 'Shakespearean authorship question' should not head the page, but be relocated at the bottom of the page as per the DNB standard biography, since it is incidental to Oxford's life, and never figured in accounts of it for 316 years.
(e) On the matriculated impubes, the sources all say this (a) Charles Henry Cooper, Thompson Cooper (eds.) Athenae Cantabrigienses, Volume 2, 1861 (Gregg Press, 1967) p.389 (b) B. M. Ward, The seventeenth Earl of Oxford, 1550-1604: from contemporary documents, 1928 p.11; (c) Alan H. Nelson, 'Monstrous Adversary,' 2003 p.24 (d) Daphne Pearson, Edward de Vere (1550-1604): the crisis and consequences of wardship, 2005 p.14 Nishidani ( talk) 10:25, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
(f):As per Nina Green's request above: 'was displeased with the arrangement' as 'assured the Earl of Rutland he personally might well have thought of a different arrangement'/ or some variant of the same consonant with the Rutland letter. Alternatively one could just elide the phrase. Nishidani ( talk) 19:07, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
'She had been pledged to Philip Sidney in August 1569, and others had apparently sought her hand. Oxford was the most eligible bachelor in England. Cecil, who had risen to Baron Burghley by February, and apparently had entertained the idea of her marrying the earl of Rutland, acquiesced. According to Nelson, Oxford's rank trumped all else.' Ward 1928, pp. 61–63 Nelson 2003, pp. 71–73
It might be that Oxford's rank trumped all else, but it might also be that Burghley realized that Anne was infatuated with Oxford and wanted her to be happy (what little evidence there is suggests that Anne loved Oxford to the end of her life, in spite of everything). Rather than speculate, maybe we should just let all this detail (which is more about Anne and Burghley and Rutland than Oxford) go. But nonetheless, if you want to put it in, I wouldn't object. Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 23:23, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
Leaving aside the fact that Alan isn't a historian and thus hasn't been trained 'not to make inferences from the absence of evidence', isn't it confusing to claim, as Alan does on p. 71, that 'Evidently Oxford's rank trumped all else' when in fact Rutland was also a high-ranking Earl? Just asking, because the fine distinction Alan seems to be making between the ranking of earls in marry his daughter is lost on me and I suspect would be lost on most people. I think the factual quality of the article would be improved by omitting this sort of speculation as to Lord Burghley's motives, but that's just my opinion. I happen to like what I'd read of Lord Burghley, and I'd like to give his motives the benefit of the doubt since we don't know what they were. Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 14:55, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
(g)The Ref to lead on his comedies runs:"Puttenham and Meres reckon him among 'the best for comedy' in his day; but, although he was a patron of players, no specimens of his dramatic productions survive."
the sixth son of Sir Thomas Tyrrell of East Horndon.
I have placed it provisorily here. Two RS state it, and a private researcher denies it to be confirmed in the records. Normally, to edit it out on personal research grounds would infringe WP:V, and WP:OR. And I personally see no reason to do as I am doing now, except for this, that it is not necessary to the text. If I find however that this is confirmed in two or three other modern RS, I will reinsert it. Any editor who sees this differently however will be within their rights to reinsert it. And I will not oppose such an edit, though I think both courtesy and commitment to essentials provide a ground to simply expunge the point, which Nina thinks controversial. Nishidani ( talk) 19:41, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
I appreciate your doing this. The ultimate source of the error is The Complete Peerage, cited by Alan as his source, and Alan has merely repeated the error. It's not vital that this error be deleted from the article, but it would improve the factual quality of the article because this error has led to other errors on Alan's part, including his claim that Richard Tyrrell was Charles Tyrrell's brother. This entail in Richard Tyrrell's will makes it clear that he was not Charles Tyrrell's brother:
>Item, I will and bequeath unto Edward, my son, all my lands and tenements with their appurtenances to him and to his heirs males of his body lawfully begotten, and for default of such issue that all my said manors, lands, tenements & hereditaments with their appurtenances except the manor of Sundon shall remain and be unto Thomas Tyrrell, my eldest brother’s son, and to his heirs males of his body lawfully begotten, and for default of such issue the remainder thereof to Henry Tyrrell, my second brother, and to the heirs males of his body lawfully begotten, and for default of such issue the remainder thereof unto Robert Tyrrell, my brother, and to his heirs males of his body lawfully begotten, and for default of such issue, the remainder thereof unto Eustace Tyrrell, my brother, and his heirs males of his body lawfully begotten, and for default of such issue the remainder thereof unto Charles Tyrrell that married the Countess of Oxford and his heirs males lawfully begotten, and for default of such issue the remainder thereof to Charles Tyrrell, servant to the Lord Rich, and to his heirs males lawfully begotten, and for default of such issue the remainder thereof unto the right heirs of me, the said Richard Tyrrell, forever;<
In my view the entail in the will of Richard Tyrrell above also suggests that it was likely the Charles Tyrrell who was the 'servant to the Lord Rich' who was actually the sixth son of Sir Thomas Tyrrell of Horndon.
I understand the problem with using primary source documents, but sometimes it's only primary source documents which reveal the errors in otherwise reliable secondary sources.
Nothing earth-shattering turns on whether the error is left in, or removed, from the article, but I think it would improve the factual quality of the article if it were removed, particularly since it's not vital to an article on Edward de Vere. Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 20:50, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
I should perhaps have added that it was because of Alan's mention of the will of Charles Tyrrell's alleged brother Richard on p. 41 of Monstrous Adversary that I ordered a copy of Richard Tyrrell's will from the National Archives and transcribed it, only to find that it doesn't say what Alan claims it says. Alan writes on p. 41:
>Although Margery and Charles are first identified as husband and wife in a will signed on 13 May 1566 by Charles' brother Richard of Assheton, Essex . . . .<
But in fact, as noted above, the entail in Richard Tyrrell's will demonstrates that Charles Tyrrell was not Richard Tyrrell's brother, and indicates, moreover, that there was another Charles Tyrrell, 'servant to the Lord Rich', who was likely the Charles Tyrrell who was the 'sixth son of Sir Thomas Tyrrell of Heron' in East Horndon. Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 20:58, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
I think you meant to write 'If the word 'brother' is not used of the first Charles Tyrrell, who married Oxford's widow, neither is it used of the second Tyrrell, who was the servant to the Lord Rich'. Exactly. When Richard Tyrrell is referring to his brothers in the entail, he calls them 'brother'. When he refers to both the Charles Tyrrells, who were obviously relations of some sort or he wouldn't have included them in the entail, he doesn't call them brothers because neither of the Charles Tyrrells was his brother. Alan simply misread the will. Moreover all the sources are clear that Richard Tyrrell of Asshedon was most definitely not one of the 'six sons of Sir Thomas Tyrrell of Heron, in East Horndon', so if he and Oxford's stepfather, Charles Tyrrell, were brothers, as Alan claims, then obviously Charles Tyrrell couldn't have been a son of Sir Thomas Tyrrell of Heron either. So Alan, without realizing it, in one of his statements on p. 41 disproves another of his statements on p. 41.
I just don't see the point of referring Wikipedia readers to a page in Alan's book on which this sort of confusion reigns. I could point out another error of Alan's concerning Charles Tyrrell's alleged annulled marriage on p. 41, but I think people's heads are spinning already. :-) It just seems pragmatic to omit the statement concerning Charles Tyrrell's background from the article entirely. It doesn't add anything to the article, it's almost certainly wrong, and it leads Wikipedia readers to a page in Alan's book where there are further errors. If it stays in the article, I won't lose any sleep over it, but I think it would improve the article to omit it. Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 22:55, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
Alan's comment on p.41 about Charles Tyrrell's alleged annulled marriage is worth considering because it is yet another error of a type which raises the question of whether Alan's book can be considered a reliable source. On p. 41, Alan writes:
([Oxford's stepfather] Charles [Tyrrell's] prior marriage to Agnes Chitwode alias Odell had been annulled by the Court of Delegates on 6 April 1560.)
Alan cites as his source 'BL MS Add. Charter 44271 (annullment)'. However if Alan actually looked at this manuscript, he misread it, because there is an account of this rather famous case in Strype's Annals. But more importantly there is this account of it, taken from a 1559 Act of Parliament, on pp. 327-8 of Documents of the English Reformation 1526-170, ed. by Gerald Bray, c1994:
>23. And where one pretended sentence has heretofore been given in the Consistory of Paul's before certain judges delegate, by the authority legatine of the late Cardinal Pole, by reason of a foreign usurped power and authority, against Richard Chetwood, Esq., and Agnes his wife, by the name of Agnes Woodhall, at the suit of Charles Tyrrell, gentleman, in a cause of matrimony solemnized between the said Richard and Agnes, as by the same pretended sentence more plainly doth appear, from which sentence the said Richard and Agnes have appealed to the court of Rome, which appeal does there remain, and yet is not determined; may it therefore please your Highness that it may be enacted by the authority aforesaid, that if sentence in the said appeal shall happen to be given at the said court of Rome for and in the behalf of the said Richard and Agnes, for the reversing of the said pretended sentence, before the end of threescore days next after the end of this session of this present Parliament (i.e. by 07 July 1559), that then the same shall be judged and taken to be good and effectual in the law, and shall and may be used, pleaded and allowed in any court or place within this realm; anything in this Act or any other Act or statute contained to the contrary notwithstanding.
>And if no sentence shall be given at the court of Rome in the said appeal for the reversing of the said pretended sentence before the end of the said threescore days, that then it shall and may be lawful for the said Richard and Agnes, and either of them, at any time hereafter, to commence, take, sue and prosecute their said appeal from the said pretended sentence, and for the reversing of the said pretended sentence, within this realm, in such like manner and form as was used to be pursued or might have been pursued, within this realm, at any time since the twenty-fourth year of the reign of the said late King Henry VIII (1532-33), upon any sentences given in the court or courts of any archbishop within this realm.<
>And that such appeal as so hereafter shall be taken or pursued by the said Richard Chetwood and Agnes, or either of them, and the sentence that herein or thereupon shall hereafter be given, shall be judged to be good and effectual in the law to all intents and purposes; any law, custom, usage, canon, constitution or any other matter or cause to the contrary notwithstanding.<
The bottom line is that this Charles Tyrrell, whoever he was (and it seems likely he was the Charles Tyrrell who was 'servant to the Lord Rich', not the Charles Tyrrell who was Oxford's stepfather), was never married to Agnes Chetwood. Charles Tyrrell was merely the person who instigated the suit to have the marriage between Agnes Woodhall and Richard Chetwood annulled.
Considering that the case in question is well enough known to have been part of a 1559 Act of Parliament, why did Alan make the egregious errors not only of falsely claiming that Oxford's stepfather Charles Tyrrell was married to Agnes Chitwode and that the marriage was annulled, but also of citing a manuscript source which demonstrates that Charles Tyrrell was not married to Agnes Chitwode? I'll leave that up to readers of this message.
Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 17:01, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
I guess I don't understand how Wikipedia determines what is, or is not, a reliable source. As I've said before (and forgive me for repeating myself), Alan is not a historian and his book has not been reviewed by professional historians. I've already demonstrated here that there are significant errors in Alan's handling of factual material from primary source manuscripts. Alan's own transcripts and other highly respected published sources such as Bray's Documents of the Reformation (cited above) establish that what Alan says in his book about the contents of certain primary source documents doesn't factually represent what the documents actually say. I could cite many more examples of factual errors in Alan's book, but leaving that aside, and merely taking the other points I've just mentioned into consideration, at what point does Wikipedia itself begin to question whether it can simply cite Alan's book as a reliable source, or whether Wikipedia itself has to say 'Maybe we can cite Alan's book for some things, but we have to be cautious'. I'm merely asking, because I really don't know. I'm new to Wikipedia, and don't understand its policies. Just by way of example, Wikipedia doesn't accept Brief Chronicles as a reliable source, yet Brief Chronicles is included in the bibliographies of The Modern Language Association and The Folger Shakespeare Library. So why does Wikipedia not accept Brief Chronicles as a reliable source, while accepting a book written by someone who is not a historian and whose book has not been reviewed by reliable historians? I'm sincerely confused about Wikipedia's criteria for assessing what constitutes a reliable source, and who actually makes that determination.
That said, I do want to co-operate with you on editing the article when you return from holidays, and so I'm quite willing to refrain from further comments on errors in Alan's book in the interim. Agreed?
You state that you could 'tear apart a lot of stuff' on my page (I assume you mean the Documents page on my website). If so, I would welcome that. I'm always revising the summaries to the documents on that page in order to reflect new information and correct earlier errors. Any help any editor of this page can provide in correcting errors on the Documents page of my website would be appreciated.
Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 18:39, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
I note the words 'Alan's book has been reviewed, often favourably', from which I deduce that even among non-historians there have been unfavourable reviews of Alan's book, and of course there have been no reviews of it at all by professional historians. Daphne Pearson's book began life as a dissertation for a Ph.D. in history, and of course was eventually reviewed by professional historians, and as you note above, has been 'severely criticized by specialists'. If Alan's book were to be reviewed by professional historians, who is to say whether it might not get the same treatment, considering the factual errors it contains?
In any event, my question was about the criteria which Wikipedia uses to determine what is, and what is not, a reliable source, and who makes that determination. This has nothing to do with my own qualifications, or with anyone's qualifications, for that matter, although you keep coming back to that point. It has to do with Wikipedia's criteria. On what basis has Wikipedia determined that Alan's book is a reliable source, and that Brief Chronicles is not a reliable source, and who makes those determinations? Just asking, because I really don't know.
Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 00:29, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
Do we have to accept the original view of Will Shaksper as the author of the "Shakespearean" plays only because this explanation has been around the longest? If in November of 2010, no one had even been told who wrote these plays and we had to start from scratch looking for evidence, and you piled up all the evidence (hard, such as it, and circumstantial, which is voluminous) for all the different candidates, who would come out on top? Edward de Vere. There simply is no contest. So why, when say who wrote the plays, do we defer to the view that has been around the longest? Frankly, the view that the sun revolves around the Earth, that the Earth is flat, and that God put on Earth on the creatures as they are now are views that have been around a lot longer than evolution, that the Earth is round, and that the Earth revolves around the sun. Should we therefore continue to believe the former views and ignore the latter explanations? I don't think so. We need to state forthrightly that Edward de Vere was the authors of these plays, because the evidence overwhelmingly points in that direction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.191.6.122 ( talk) 01:36, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
I just read this on the Wikipedia page on original research:
>If no source exists for something you want to add to Wikipedia, it is "original research".<
I'm a little surprised because my earlier editing of the article in which I cited primary sources was entirely deleted on the ground that it was 'original research'. But it wasn't original research by Wikipedia's definition. I was merely citing primary sources for certain facts, which Wikipedia allows. Original research, by Wikipedia's definition, is adding something for which no source exists. A very different thing. Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 01:51, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
That didn't quite work out. The reference turned into a footnote. I'll try it again:
Shortly after his marriage, at the age of twenty-two, Oxford was licensed to enter on his lands by the Queen's letters patent of 30 May 1572. Reference cited: The National Archives C 66/1090, mm. 29-30.
Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 22:42, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
I'm sure you're right. I have very little knowledge in this area. I was going by the language you used, specifically "levied". My impression is that fines were issued and recorded, not levied, which to me (in my admitted ignorance, again) implies a penalty and not a land conveyance.
I have asked for some help from the OR noticeboard. Opinions from disinterested editors is almost always helpful. Tom Reedy ( talk) 18:19, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
Nina, how is that a third one? She obviously has made several mistakes in citing P.R.O. C66/1091/3159, m. 29-30, because C66/1091 doesn't exist, nor does C66/1091/3159, and C66/3159 is from 26 Chas II, but P.R.O. C66/1090/3159 is the same as P.R.O. C66/1091/3159, m. 29-30--she just left out the membrane numbers (but they're both wrong).
Above you wrote, "But Wikipedia can't cite Daphne Pearson's book or Alan Nelson's book for this fact in Oxford's life because Pearson and Nelson are in conflict with respect to both the date (Pearson has 31 May, Alan has 30 May) and the reference ..." How does Pearson's error affect Nelson's cite? He has the right date and a good cite, yes? So in answer to your question, "So how do Wikipedia editors choose between citing Nelson or Pearson when they're in direct conflict with each other?", the editors choose Nelson. From my understanding this is the way primary sources are used: "All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors." So in this particular case it would be referenced by Nelson as a secondary source.
To determine which source, Pearson or Nelson, has priority, WP:RS says, "Material such as an article, book, monograph, or research paper that has been vetted by the scholarly community is regarded as reliable. If the material has been published in reputable peer-reviewed sources or by well-regarded academic presses, generally it has been at least preliminarily vetted by one or more other scholars." Both Nelson and Pearson have been reviewed, and the reviews I have read rate Nelson above Pearson as far as accuracy and scholarship, so he would be preferred over Pearson.
As far as using your transcriptions and translations of primary sources, WP:V says, "...self-published media, such as books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, personal or group blogs, Internet forum postings, and tweets, are largely not acceptable as sources. Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications."
I suggest you read WP:RS and WP:V. It takes repeated reading to get a grasp of Wikipedia policies. I'm still learning almost every day. Tom Reedy ( talk) 21:55, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
PS: I doubt we'll get any input from uninvolved editors. Any topic related to the SAQ in any way has long been worn out as far as uninvolved editors are concerned.
Yes, the Calendar of Patent Rolls is a primary source. See the article Calendar of Patent Rolls. I can only repeat my quotation of Wikipedia policy: "All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors." This conversation seems to be going around and around. Have you read the policies I linked to? Here they are again: WP:RS and WP:V, and also WP:OR.
That means that, as per Wikipedia policy, if you use the original National Archive record or the Calendar of Patent Rolls description to source the statement that Oxford was licensed to enter on his lands by the Queen's letters patent of 30 May 1572 in a Wikipedia article, it must be referenced to a secondary source because the original is in Latin and not readily accessible to the average reader. Please read the appropriate policies before you repeat your objection to Wikipedia policies. I understand that you have no such policy for your Web site, but this is Wikipedia, with its own policies and guidelines. Tom Reedy ( talk) 15:55, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
Nina, you can stop adding colons. One I outdented (that line thingey above that brought my comment back to the left of the page) it starts all over again. The only purpose of progressive indentation is to make clear who is replying to whom.
The CPR is clearly a primary source when it is used as a reference for an article on Oxford. The fact that it is of a secondary derivation is not relevant to it being a source for an encyclopedia article, as it does not establish notability for Oxford nor discuss or analyse the entry how it relates to him, but is merely an index list of entries in the patent rolls. See both Secondary source and WP:PRIMARY. And yes, WP:OR is relevant to this because your use of your original research to source a statement is what brought this whole thing on.
What do you have against using Nelson, since the primary source supports his statement? I realise you're not used to doing things the Wikipedia way, but it is based upon scholarly methodology and if one insists on editing Wikipedia articles one must at least attempt to understand how they should be sourced. Arguing against the policy of the encyclopedia is useless. Tom Reedy ( talk) 17:39, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
So that's where Daphene got 'P.R.O. C66/1090/3159 (Lat.)', with the last four numbers being the CPR reference. And there are numerous factual errors in every book; this one--if it proves to be one--is certainly very minor.
I'll look at Alan's cite later today. Are you sure he uses the same book/citation style as you do? Because often reference numbers change as repositories change their systems, although I don't think that's the case here, since Nelson is earlier than Daphne. I find it hard to believe that two independent researchers would get the same citation wrong. One or the other is using a different reference or a different system. and have you checked his Web site to see if this has been acknowledged and corrected? Tom Reedy ( talk) 16:38, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
Where is the Wikipedia policy statement which provides that Wikipedia editors are to correct the errors in Alan Nelson's book rather than cite the Calendar of Patent Rolls which has the correct date and the correct reference in case a reader wanted to consult the original document? Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 02:48, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for the PDFs. I e-mailed Alan and aske dhim about it and received a reply just a while ago. He wrote, "I transcribed probably a million words for the book; I suppose I can be forgiven a few incorrect page numbers", especially since he said that that Liverpool University Press published his book without hiring a copy editor to check citations.
He also wrote that academic reviews of the book have been excellent, and such reviews are one way Wikipedia assesses a source. He writes that he will correct any errors in his transcriptions of the texts, but that he isn't worried that a page number error would invalidate his book.
And BTW, I also brought to his attention some other inconsistencies and errors in the citations, such as p. 455, note 16: CPR, 1569-72, p. 159 [3094-95]. The idea that these errors disqualify his book as a source for this article is ludicrous, but if you disagree you can take it to the WP:RS noticeboard and solicit other opinions. Tom Reedy ( talk) 23:01, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
Your depiction of my consulting Alan Nelson and your conclusions are just bizarre. You need to seek an opinion from WP:NOR/N. Tom Reedy ( talk) 17:34, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
Bio and publications of Achsah Guibbory: Ann Whitney Olin Professor of English, joined the faculty of Barnard in 2004, after teaching at the University of Illinois for many years. At Barnard, her teaching specialties include Milton, Donne, seventeenth-century literature and nation-formation, and Christian/Jewish relations and religious identities in the early modern period. She is affiliated with Barnard's Medieval and Renaissance studies program. Her book, Christian Identity, Jews, and Israel in Seventeenth-century England, has been just published by Oxford University Press (fall 2010). The research for this book was supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Senior Research Fellowship (2002) and a Guggenheim Fellowship (2008). Her other publications include Ceremony and Community from Herbert to Milton (Cambridge University Press, 1998), The Cambridge Companion to John Donne (2006), and numerous journal articles and book chapters on seventeenth-century literature and culture.
Her review, “Recent Studies in the English Renaissance” in Studies in English Literature 1500-1900, 45:1, Winter 2005, pp. 213-254, begins, "It is remarkable how many of the books I received are about history: a number are written by historians, and published in a history series. I had expected a couple might be, but most, I thought, would be in 'Renaissance nondramatic literature,' even as the field has in many instances morphed into cultural history. So I was surprised when I kept receiving shipments of 'history' books. Perhaps the traditional boundaries between literature and history (at least on the part of 'literary scholars') really are breaking down, not only as we recognize the need to historicize, but also as we enlarge the category of 'literature' (in itself a kind of return, with a difference, to the situation in the Renaissance when disciplinary spheres were as yet not sharply differentiated, where one could be a 'literary author' and much else). It seems, however, more than that, and prompts me to ask several questions for which it is too early to provide answers."
Her one-paragraph review of Nelson:
Bio and publications of Gabriel Heaton: He took his first degree at the University of Durham, and obtained his doctorate from Cambridge in 2003. He worked as a postdoctoral research fellow at the University of Warwick, editing Elizabethan entertainments and related texts for Court and Culture in the Reign of Queen Elizabeth I: A New Edition of John Nichols's Progresses. He is also the author of a number of articles on subjects including entertainments, libels, and the poet Aurelian Townshend. Dr Heaton currently works in the Department of Printed Books and Manuscripts at Sotheby's, where he is a Deputy Director specialising in post-Medieval English manuscripts. He is the author of numerous academic articles, and of Writing and Reading Royal Entertainments From George Gascoigne to Ben Jonson, published June 2010 by Oxford University Press.
His conclusion about Nelson’s book (beginning with the sentence you stopped at):
’nuff said. Tom Reedy ( talk) 20:31, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
There are very few reliable sources on the factual details of Oxford's life. It seems to have been assumed until now for purposes of editing this page that Alan Nelson's Monstrous Adversary is a reliable source, and that it can be cited for virtually any statement made in it without the editors of this page doing any fact-checking. That assumption has been challenged by the errors already documented on this discussion page. Here's another one. On pp. 308-9 Alan writes:
Oxford's sale of Colne Priory to the Harlakendens, and Oxford's lawsuit against the Harlakendens for fraud which followed it, are important and well-documented events in Oxford's life (see the numerous items related to the sale and the lawsuit on the Documents page of my website). It's difficult to believe that Alan could make the erroneous claim that Oxford had already sold Colne Priory to Roger Harlakenden by May 1588 when Oxford did not sell Colne Priory until February 1592. But there it is, in black and white. Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 00:22, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
Unfortunately, Wikipedia doesn't go by your opinion of what qualifies as a reliable source. If you want to specifically ask about Monstrous Adversary, you need to do so at WP:RS/N. While you're at it, you might as well ask whether the Calendar of Patent Rolls is a secondary source. Until then (and I would wager afterward), Nelson is considered a reliable source and the CPR is considered a primary source. Tom Reedy ( talk) 02:12, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
That is not the sole topic he wrote to Cecil about. He reported that he had scheduled a meeting with Philip Chiverny, and that a Flemish painter had said he could be persuaded to go to England to paint because he didn't like Paris, and that he had done a very good portrait of Oxford (probably the one that the article's main image is based upon). My point is that larding an article with every detail makes for tediousness and that if that detail should be included, it should be in relation to the portrait. That section is woefully empty of where Oxford went and what he did during his travels, jumping from his leaving to his return within a few sentences, and then goes into family details. Tom Reedy ( talk) 17:26, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, Tom. Though it could be doubted the present portrait is as witty & significant as the device that prompted the remark, the letter shows that Valentine was intimate with his master's former ward's Paris sojourn, which was long enough to dally with a painter, and so is a detail of his travels. Unoquha ( talk) 19:18, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
How about this on p.9:
As a source for John Golding's death, Alan cites this on p. 444:
Alan doesn't even appear to have noticed that in the text he refers to Golding five times as a knight, but provides as a source for his burial a reference which refers to him as an esquire. Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 06:51, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
Is this what one expects from a reliable source, using someone else's translation without citing it? True, it's only a single sentence, but nonetheless, the translation was Ward's not Alan's. Why didn't Alan cite Ward? Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 16:06, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
Yet another egregious error. On p. 11 Alan writes:
Alan cites as his source Buc (1982), pp. 169-70, that is, Kincaid's edition cited above. But when one turns to pp. 169-70, one finds that it was not a prophecy at all. It was Buc's own statement, made when he wrote the book:
The statement is clearly ridiculous. Buc went mad before his death, and one can't help but wonder what his state of mind was when he wrote this. The 13th Earl, of whom Buc is speaking, died in 1513, as Alan says above, and Buc is therefore stating that less than 60 years later, i.e. circa 1571, when Oxford reached the age of majority, the whole earldom was wasted and the bones of Oxford's ancestors were lying in the fields. Utter nonsense.
Moreover in addition to claiming something as a prophecy which his source indicates clearly was not a prophecy, and in addition to giving credence to a clearly nonsensical statement, Alan has deliberately or carelessly distorted what Buc actually said. Buc did not say 'that in fewer years than the 13th Earl had lived'. He said 'within less than threescore years after the death of the said Earl John'. This deliberate or careless distortion by Alan makes a huge difference. What Buc actually said makes these events happen by circa 1571. By distorting Buc's statement, Alan brings the date to 1583 (see above). Is Alan's book a reliable source? Nina Green —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 17:57, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
A well-reviewed book on a literary/historical figure by an emeritus professor of English at one of the best research universities in the world, published by the university press of an important British university, and written more or less in the author's area of specialty, is obviously a reliable source. That doesn't mean it can't contain errors, but this whole effort is ridiculous. john k ( talk) 19:45, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
I just noticed that, after having dubbed John Golding a knight five times on p. 9, and having recorded his burial as an esquire in an endnote on p. 444, Alan has him as an esquire again on p.14:
Here is an instance where Alan clearly does not know what he is talking about. Referring to the Protector Somerset's extortion of the 16th Earl's lands, Alan writes on p. 17:
Somerset's extortion against the 16th Earl was most certainly reversed by a 'subsequent Act of Parliament' (see HL/PO/PB/1/1551/5E6n35 on the Documents page of my website), but it was never 'enforced' by a 'subsequent Act of Parliament'. This is an error of major proportions. Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 21:36, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
Alan ends Chapter 3 with yet another major error concerning the consequences of Somerset's extortion against the 16th Earl. On p. 19 he writes:
Leaving aside the amusing suggestion that his execution 'weakened' Somerset's hold on the 16th Earl :-), Alan is so vague here that the reader hasn't the faintest idea what he's talking about. As his authority for the vague statement that Somerset's hold 'terminated on 22 January 1553', Alan cites on p. 446:
Once again Alan vaguely refers to that Act of Parliament which he apparently never set eyes on since he never gives a reference number for it, and did not recognize a direct paraphrase from it when he ran across it on p.235 of Louis Thorn Golding's An Elizabethan Puritan. Alan's second reference is to TNA C 66/848, which is available on the Documents page of my website. Alan's reference makes it clear that he hasn't researched this point any further than the Calendar of Patent Rolls. Yet Alan holds forth on this topic for several pages in his book, drawing conclusions right, left and center, without having looked at the original documents to determine what they actually say. Is Alan's book a reliable source? Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 23:39, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
Another instance involving the consequences of Somerset's extortion where Alan either doesn't know what he's talking about, or uses language so imprecisely that others can't possibly understand the facts correctly. On p. 21, Alan writes:
The indenture was not 'revoked' by the letters patent of that date. The letters patent (TNA C 66/848 on my website) read, in my translation:
In other words, the indentures, which had escheated to the Crown on Somerset's attainder, were granted to the 16th Earl by the King to do what he wanted with them (the only reasonable action being to destroy them). That is not at all the same thing as revocation of the indentures by the letters patent. Alan of course cites only the Calendar of Patent Rolls for this document, and obviously never looked at or translated the document itself. Is Alan's book a reliable source? Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 00:40, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
On the face of it, it has all the attributes of a reliable source, but Nina's comments throw so much doubt on the scholarship of Alan H. Nelson of Berkeley that for now I should not choose to cite it myself. This throws up a conundrum for Wikipedians, as we have no mechanisms that I am aware of for judging the merits of sources. Indeed, if Wikipedia were to set itself up to stand in judgement on Professor Nelson, he and his peers would find it comical. I think for now the discrediting of academic works needs to be done elsewhere. Of course, where one of us can show from a primary source that a secondary source is wrong, challenging the statement rather than the credibility of a whole work, that is a proper way to deal with the problems a questionable work causes us. Once several such challenges have succeeded, a source is cited much less often by those who are aware of them. Moonraker2 ( talk) 02:47, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
I would point out that even if we accept that every instance of error pointed out by Nina is in fact an error, then Nelson is still 99 percent correct. I don't have one book on my shelf that is error-free, and that includes Chambers, Schoenbaum, and Wells. To compare Nelson with Ward is like comparing Schoenbaum with Ireland.
I have several times suggested that Nina take her complaints to WP:RS, but she seems to be not listening. Tom Reedy ( talk) 12:59, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
User:Tom Reedy has asked me to note, as an un-involved editor, that the discussion about the above-described topic at WP:RSN appears to have reached a suitable compromise concerning how to report De Vere's patronage. Hope that helps.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 10:40, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
Relevant. Tom Reedy ( talk) 13:29, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
Irrelevant Nishidani ( talk) 13:34, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
On the question of whether Monstrous Adversary is a reliable source, another instance of factual inaccuracy. On p. 37, Alan states that Oxford's tutor was 'Lawrence Nowell, Dean of Lichfield. The entry for Oxford's tutor, Laurence Nowell, in the online edition of The Dictionary of National Biography states that the antiquary Laurence Nowell (Oxford's tutor) was a different person from the Lawrence Nowell who was Dean of Lichfield. Errors of this nature (and there are many of them) all into question whether Monstrous Adversary can be cited as a reliable source. Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 20:20, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
Alan doesn't want to know about the errors in his book. When it was first published, he set up a page on his website at which readers could post errors noted in his book, but he almost immediately shut it down. Nor does Alan want to know about the errors in Pearson's book because he simply incorporated her findings about Oxford's income and finances into Monstrous Adversary. When I first discovered the Latin document which Pearson had misinterpreted, and which led her to erroneously assign to Oxford an inherited income almost twice that which the extant documents show he actually did inherit (and then to speculate about the 'black hole' into which that imaginary income disappeared to :-), I told Alan about it. He didn't want to hear about it, and cut off all contact. Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 21:14, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
As I mentioned before, my objective is to make the article as factually accurate as possible. Alan's book can be cited for certain facts, but it contains far more errors than are acceptable in a scholarly work, and for that reason it can only be cited with caution, and after having cross-checked Alan's statements against other sources, including the sources Alan quotes (see, for example, how Alan distorted the quotation from Fenelon which I just mentioned). You and I got off on the wrong foot, and I'm hoping we can work together to make the article as factually accurate as possible. I'm surprised at the amount of reading you indicate you've done on the topic. That's very commendable, if I might be permitted that comment. You're not editing off the top of your head. Nor am I. I've put in thousands of hours trying to get at the facts about Oxford. This research has little to do with the authorship aspect. It has to do primary with the historical documents which form Oxford's 'biography'. Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 21:30, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
I note there is no source for this statement in the article: 'In later years Burghley was to upbraid Oxford frequently for his prodigal extravagance.' Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 19:34, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
Good. Thanks. Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 20:43, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
In later years we shall find Lord Burghley continually upbraiding Lord Oxford for his extravagance.B. M. Ward, The seventeenth Earl of Oxford, 1550-1604: from contemporary documents 1928,John Murray, London 1928, p.31
Even the DNB had the identification wrong until recent years. See the new entry for the antiquary Laurence Nowell in the online edition of the DNB. Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 17:21, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
This belongs both under this heading, and under the heading Additional Errors in Monstrous Adversary above: 'Cecil, who had risen to Baron Burghley by February, was displeased with the arrangement'(i.e. Oxford's betrothal to Anne Cecil). The page reference given in the article is to p. 71 of Monstrous Adversary, and I assume the reference is intended to e to Alan's misquotation of a letter from the French ambassador, Fenelon. The letter is transcribed and translated on my website (see Fenelon, July 1571 on the Documents page). Alan has erroneously inserted the name [Burghley] into his quotation from the letter, thereby stating that Burghley had told Fenelon he was not happy to see Anne, at her age, brought to church to marry the Earl of Oxford. In fact Fenelon is referring to what the Queen told him (Fenelon) about her own pretended reluctance to marry Alencon, since he was 'the age of the Earl of Oxford' whereas she herself was much older. Surely Wikipedia does not wish to direct readers of this article to an error this egregious in nature. Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 20:56, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
I'm wondering whether we can take the Fenelon citation step by step to see whether a compromise can be arrived at. Firstly, on pp.62-3 Ward quotes Lord Burghley's letter in connection with Oxford's betrothal to Anne Cecil to the effect that Burghley thinks well of Oxford and 'honour him so dearly from my heart as I do my own son', so Alan's reference to Fenelon is suspect from the outset. Secondly, historians are well aware that Fenelon's correspondence is in French, so Alan's quotation on p.71 in English while citing in his endnotes a source which is in French (Correspondance, iv. p. 186) is also suspect from the outset. Even Wikipedia's rules must allow for questioning of a cited source which is in another language from the quotation alleging given from that source. Thirdly, the letter in question is from Corresponance, which is itself a published work, and therefore Wikipedia editors can take cognizance of it. Fourthly, the letter in question is from Fenelon to Queen Catherine de Medici, and the words in question (taken from Corresponance) read:
Madame, en discourant avec la Royne d’Angleterre des choses que je mande en la lettre du Roy, nous sommes, de propos en propos, venuz à parler du pourtraict de Monseigneur vostre filz, et elle m’a dict qu’encor que ce ne soit que le créon, et que son teint n’y soit que quasi tout chafouré de charbon, si ne layssoit ce visaige de monstrer beaucoup de beaulté et beaucoup de merques de dignité et de prudence; et qu’elle avoit esté bien ayse de le veoyr ainsy meur comme d’ung homme parfaict, car me vouloit dire tout librement que mal vollontiers, estant de l’eage qu’elle est, eust elle vollu estre conduict à l’esglise pour estre maryée avec ung qui se fût monstré aussi jeune comme le comte d’Oxfort
There is no way in which a letter which begins, Madame, in discussing with the Queen of England, who told me thus and so can be turned into a letter in which Lord Burghley told me so and so, as Alan's interpolation of Lord Burghley's name into the letter has done.
The point is that the statement in the article doesn't need to be made, and since it doesn't need to be made, it can be removed if the sources on which allegedly rests turn out not to support it, no? Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 17:33, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
Have the editors of this page considered adding something about Oxford's participation in the Frobisher expedition and in Adrian Gilbert's Colleagues of the Fellowship for the Discovery of the North West Passage (Ward pp. 236-41, Nelson, pp. 187-9)? The topic has historical interest, and also explains where some of Oxford's capital went. Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 23:48, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
Would you be interested in writing something on that topic? Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 14:42, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
That's unfortunate. Just when we were getting somewhere. Maybe the ban could be lifted? Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 15:48, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
Well, before you go away, let me wish you the best. Hope you have a great holiday. I'll probably give the article a rest until you return. Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 19:30, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
Taking into consideration some of the remarks above, in addition to points raised generally over the past month.
(a) Add source as per Nina Green's request for the line:-
'In later years Burghley was to upbraid Oxford frequently for his prodigal extravagance.'
Nishidani is right. I now see that Ward does say on p. 31 that 'In later years we shall find Lord Burghley continually upbraiding Oxford for his extravagance'. Ward doesn't, so far as I know, provide references later in his book which would justify his use of the phrase 'continually upbraiding', but nonetheless, that's exactly what he says on p. 31. Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 17:17, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
(b) 'the sixth son of Sir Thomas Tyrrell of East Horndon' can be elided (an unnecessary specification in any case') or it should be prefaced by 'according to some sources'.
(c)The words in the lead, 'participated in military campaigns in the Northern Rebellion (1569)' are misleading as I noted above and on LessHeard vanU's page.
(d) The section 'Shakespearean authorship question' should not head the page, but be relocated at the bottom of the page as per the DNB standard biography, since it is incidental to Oxford's life, and never figured in accounts of it for 316 years.
(e) On the matriculated impubes, the sources all say this (a) Charles Henry Cooper, Thompson Cooper (eds.) Athenae Cantabrigienses, Volume 2, 1861 (Gregg Press, 1967) p.389 (b) B. M. Ward, The seventeenth Earl of Oxford, 1550-1604: from contemporary documents, 1928 p.11; (c) Alan H. Nelson, 'Monstrous Adversary,' 2003 p.24 (d) Daphne Pearson, Edward de Vere (1550-1604): the crisis and consequences of wardship, 2005 p.14 Nishidani ( talk) 10:25, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
(f):As per Nina Green's request above: 'was displeased with the arrangement' as 'assured the Earl of Rutland he personally might well have thought of a different arrangement'/ or some variant of the same consonant with the Rutland letter. Alternatively one could just elide the phrase. Nishidani ( talk) 19:07, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
'She had been pledged to Philip Sidney in August 1569, and others had apparently sought her hand. Oxford was the most eligible bachelor in England. Cecil, who had risen to Baron Burghley by February, and apparently had entertained the idea of her marrying the earl of Rutland, acquiesced. According to Nelson, Oxford's rank trumped all else.' Ward 1928, pp. 61–63 Nelson 2003, pp. 71–73
It might be that Oxford's rank trumped all else, but it might also be that Burghley realized that Anne was infatuated with Oxford and wanted her to be happy (what little evidence there is suggests that Anne loved Oxford to the end of her life, in spite of everything). Rather than speculate, maybe we should just let all this detail (which is more about Anne and Burghley and Rutland than Oxford) go. But nonetheless, if you want to put it in, I wouldn't object. Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 23:23, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
Leaving aside the fact that Alan isn't a historian and thus hasn't been trained 'not to make inferences from the absence of evidence', isn't it confusing to claim, as Alan does on p. 71, that 'Evidently Oxford's rank trumped all else' when in fact Rutland was also a high-ranking Earl? Just asking, because the fine distinction Alan seems to be making between the ranking of earls in marry his daughter is lost on me and I suspect would be lost on most people. I think the factual quality of the article would be improved by omitting this sort of speculation as to Lord Burghley's motives, but that's just my opinion. I happen to like what I'd read of Lord Burghley, and I'd like to give his motives the benefit of the doubt since we don't know what they were. Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 14:55, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
(g)The Ref to lead on his comedies runs:"Puttenham and Meres reckon him among 'the best for comedy' in his day; but, although he was a patron of players, no specimens of his dramatic productions survive."
the sixth son of Sir Thomas Tyrrell of East Horndon.
I have placed it provisorily here. Two RS state it, and a private researcher denies it to be confirmed in the records. Normally, to edit it out on personal research grounds would infringe WP:V, and WP:OR. And I personally see no reason to do as I am doing now, except for this, that it is not necessary to the text. If I find however that this is confirmed in two or three other modern RS, I will reinsert it. Any editor who sees this differently however will be within their rights to reinsert it. And I will not oppose such an edit, though I think both courtesy and commitment to essentials provide a ground to simply expunge the point, which Nina thinks controversial. Nishidani ( talk) 19:41, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
I appreciate your doing this. The ultimate source of the error is The Complete Peerage, cited by Alan as his source, and Alan has merely repeated the error. It's not vital that this error be deleted from the article, but it would improve the factual quality of the article because this error has led to other errors on Alan's part, including his claim that Richard Tyrrell was Charles Tyrrell's brother. This entail in Richard Tyrrell's will makes it clear that he was not Charles Tyrrell's brother:
>Item, I will and bequeath unto Edward, my son, all my lands and tenements with their appurtenances to him and to his heirs males of his body lawfully begotten, and for default of such issue that all my said manors, lands, tenements & hereditaments with their appurtenances except the manor of Sundon shall remain and be unto Thomas Tyrrell, my eldest brother’s son, and to his heirs males of his body lawfully begotten, and for default of such issue the remainder thereof to Henry Tyrrell, my second brother, and to the heirs males of his body lawfully begotten, and for default of such issue the remainder thereof unto Robert Tyrrell, my brother, and to his heirs males of his body lawfully begotten, and for default of such issue, the remainder thereof unto Eustace Tyrrell, my brother, and his heirs males of his body lawfully begotten, and for default of such issue the remainder thereof unto Charles Tyrrell that married the Countess of Oxford and his heirs males lawfully begotten, and for default of such issue the remainder thereof to Charles Tyrrell, servant to the Lord Rich, and to his heirs males lawfully begotten, and for default of such issue the remainder thereof unto the right heirs of me, the said Richard Tyrrell, forever;<
In my view the entail in the will of Richard Tyrrell above also suggests that it was likely the Charles Tyrrell who was the 'servant to the Lord Rich' who was actually the sixth son of Sir Thomas Tyrrell of Horndon.
I understand the problem with using primary source documents, but sometimes it's only primary source documents which reveal the errors in otherwise reliable secondary sources.
Nothing earth-shattering turns on whether the error is left in, or removed, from the article, but I think it would improve the factual quality of the article if it were removed, particularly since it's not vital to an article on Edward de Vere. Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 20:50, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
I should perhaps have added that it was because of Alan's mention of the will of Charles Tyrrell's alleged brother Richard on p. 41 of Monstrous Adversary that I ordered a copy of Richard Tyrrell's will from the National Archives and transcribed it, only to find that it doesn't say what Alan claims it says. Alan writes on p. 41:
>Although Margery and Charles are first identified as husband and wife in a will signed on 13 May 1566 by Charles' brother Richard of Assheton, Essex . . . .<
But in fact, as noted above, the entail in Richard Tyrrell's will demonstrates that Charles Tyrrell was not Richard Tyrrell's brother, and indicates, moreover, that there was another Charles Tyrrell, 'servant to the Lord Rich', who was likely the Charles Tyrrell who was the 'sixth son of Sir Thomas Tyrrell of Heron' in East Horndon. Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 20:58, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
I think you meant to write 'If the word 'brother' is not used of the first Charles Tyrrell, who married Oxford's widow, neither is it used of the second Tyrrell, who was the servant to the Lord Rich'. Exactly. When Richard Tyrrell is referring to his brothers in the entail, he calls them 'brother'. When he refers to both the Charles Tyrrells, who were obviously relations of some sort or he wouldn't have included them in the entail, he doesn't call them brothers because neither of the Charles Tyrrells was his brother. Alan simply misread the will. Moreover all the sources are clear that Richard Tyrrell of Asshedon was most definitely not one of the 'six sons of Sir Thomas Tyrrell of Heron, in East Horndon', so if he and Oxford's stepfather, Charles Tyrrell, were brothers, as Alan claims, then obviously Charles Tyrrell couldn't have been a son of Sir Thomas Tyrrell of Heron either. So Alan, without realizing it, in one of his statements on p. 41 disproves another of his statements on p. 41.
I just don't see the point of referring Wikipedia readers to a page in Alan's book on which this sort of confusion reigns. I could point out another error of Alan's concerning Charles Tyrrell's alleged annulled marriage on p. 41, but I think people's heads are spinning already. :-) It just seems pragmatic to omit the statement concerning Charles Tyrrell's background from the article entirely. It doesn't add anything to the article, it's almost certainly wrong, and it leads Wikipedia readers to a page in Alan's book where there are further errors. If it stays in the article, I won't lose any sleep over it, but I think it would improve the article to omit it. Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 22:55, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
Alan's comment on p.41 about Charles Tyrrell's alleged annulled marriage is worth considering because it is yet another error of a type which raises the question of whether Alan's book can be considered a reliable source. On p. 41, Alan writes:
([Oxford's stepfather] Charles [Tyrrell's] prior marriage to Agnes Chitwode alias Odell had been annulled by the Court of Delegates on 6 April 1560.)
Alan cites as his source 'BL MS Add. Charter 44271 (annullment)'. However if Alan actually looked at this manuscript, he misread it, because there is an account of this rather famous case in Strype's Annals. But more importantly there is this account of it, taken from a 1559 Act of Parliament, on pp. 327-8 of Documents of the English Reformation 1526-170, ed. by Gerald Bray, c1994:
>23. And where one pretended sentence has heretofore been given in the Consistory of Paul's before certain judges delegate, by the authority legatine of the late Cardinal Pole, by reason of a foreign usurped power and authority, against Richard Chetwood, Esq., and Agnes his wife, by the name of Agnes Woodhall, at the suit of Charles Tyrrell, gentleman, in a cause of matrimony solemnized between the said Richard and Agnes, as by the same pretended sentence more plainly doth appear, from which sentence the said Richard and Agnes have appealed to the court of Rome, which appeal does there remain, and yet is not determined; may it therefore please your Highness that it may be enacted by the authority aforesaid, that if sentence in the said appeal shall happen to be given at the said court of Rome for and in the behalf of the said Richard and Agnes, for the reversing of the said pretended sentence, before the end of threescore days next after the end of this session of this present Parliament (i.e. by 07 July 1559), that then the same shall be judged and taken to be good and effectual in the law, and shall and may be used, pleaded and allowed in any court or place within this realm; anything in this Act or any other Act or statute contained to the contrary notwithstanding.
>And if no sentence shall be given at the court of Rome in the said appeal for the reversing of the said pretended sentence before the end of the said threescore days, that then it shall and may be lawful for the said Richard and Agnes, and either of them, at any time hereafter, to commence, take, sue and prosecute their said appeal from the said pretended sentence, and for the reversing of the said pretended sentence, within this realm, in such like manner and form as was used to be pursued or might have been pursued, within this realm, at any time since the twenty-fourth year of the reign of the said late King Henry VIII (1532-33), upon any sentences given in the court or courts of any archbishop within this realm.<
>And that such appeal as so hereafter shall be taken or pursued by the said Richard Chetwood and Agnes, or either of them, and the sentence that herein or thereupon shall hereafter be given, shall be judged to be good and effectual in the law to all intents and purposes; any law, custom, usage, canon, constitution or any other matter or cause to the contrary notwithstanding.<
The bottom line is that this Charles Tyrrell, whoever he was (and it seems likely he was the Charles Tyrrell who was 'servant to the Lord Rich', not the Charles Tyrrell who was Oxford's stepfather), was never married to Agnes Chetwood. Charles Tyrrell was merely the person who instigated the suit to have the marriage between Agnes Woodhall and Richard Chetwood annulled.
Considering that the case in question is well enough known to have been part of a 1559 Act of Parliament, why did Alan make the egregious errors not only of falsely claiming that Oxford's stepfather Charles Tyrrell was married to Agnes Chitwode and that the marriage was annulled, but also of citing a manuscript source which demonstrates that Charles Tyrrell was not married to Agnes Chitwode? I'll leave that up to readers of this message.
Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 17:01, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
I guess I don't understand how Wikipedia determines what is, or is not, a reliable source. As I've said before (and forgive me for repeating myself), Alan is not a historian and his book has not been reviewed by professional historians. I've already demonstrated here that there are significant errors in Alan's handling of factual material from primary source manuscripts. Alan's own transcripts and other highly respected published sources such as Bray's Documents of the Reformation (cited above) establish that what Alan says in his book about the contents of certain primary source documents doesn't factually represent what the documents actually say. I could cite many more examples of factual errors in Alan's book, but leaving that aside, and merely taking the other points I've just mentioned into consideration, at what point does Wikipedia itself begin to question whether it can simply cite Alan's book as a reliable source, or whether Wikipedia itself has to say 'Maybe we can cite Alan's book for some things, but we have to be cautious'. I'm merely asking, because I really don't know. I'm new to Wikipedia, and don't understand its policies. Just by way of example, Wikipedia doesn't accept Brief Chronicles as a reliable source, yet Brief Chronicles is included in the bibliographies of The Modern Language Association and The Folger Shakespeare Library. So why does Wikipedia not accept Brief Chronicles as a reliable source, while accepting a book written by someone who is not a historian and whose book has not been reviewed by reliable historians? I'm sincerely confused about Wikipedia's criteria for assessing what constitutes a reliable source, and who actually makes that determination.
That said, I do want to co-operate with you on editing the article when you return from holidays, and so I'm quite willing to refrain from further comments on errors in Alan's book in the interim. Agreed?
You state that you could 'tear apart a lot of stuff' on my page (I assume you mean the Documents page on my website). If so, I would welcome that. I'm always revising the summaries to the documents on that page in order to reflect new information and correct earlier errors. Any help any editor of this page can provide in correcting errors on the Documents page of my website would be appreciated.
Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 18:39, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
I note the words 'Alan's book has been reviewed, often favourably', from which I deduce that even among non-historians there have been unfavourable reviews of Alan's book, and of course there have been no reviews of it at all by professional historians. Daphne Pearson's book began life as a dissertation for a Ph.D. in history, and of course was eventually reviewed by professional historians, and as you note above, has been 'severely criticized by specialists'. If Alan's book were to be reviewed by professional historians, who is to say whether it might not get the same treatment, considering the factual errors it contains?
In any event, my question was about the criteria which Wikipedia uses to determine what is, and what is not, a reliable source, and who makes that determination. This has nothing to do with my own qualifications, or with anyone's qualifications, for that matter, although you keep coming back to that point. It has to do with Wikipedia's criteria. On what basis has Wikipedia determined that Alan's book is a reliable source, and that Brief Chronicles is not a reliable source, and who makes those determinations? Just asking, because I really don't know.
Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 00:29, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
Do we have to accept the original view of Will Shaksper as the author of the "Shakespearean" plays only because this explanation has been around the longest? If in November of 2010, no one had even been told who wrote these plays and we had to start from scratch looking for evidence, and you piled up all the evidence (hard, such as it, and circumstantial, which is voluminous) for all the different candidates, who would come out on top? Edward de Vere. There simply is no contest. So why, when say who wrote the plays, do we defer to the view that has been around the longest? Frankly, the view that the sun revolves around the Earth, that the Earth is flat, and that God put on Earth on the creatures as they are now are views that have been around a lot longer than evolution, that the Earth is round, and that the Earth revolves around the sun. Should we therefore continue to believe the former views and ignore the latter explanations? I don't think so. We need to state forthrightly that Edward de Vere was the authors of these plays, because the evidence overwhelmingly points in that direction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.191.6.122 ( talk) 01:36, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
I just read this on the Wikipedia page on original research:
>If no source exists for something you want to add to Wikipedia, it is "original research".<
I'm a little surprised because my earlier editing of the article in which I cited primary sources was entirely deleted on the ground that it was 'original research'. But it wasn't original research by Wikipedia's definition. I was merely citing primary sources for certain facts, which Wikipedia allows. Original research, by Wikipedia's definition, is adding something for which no source exists. A very different thing. Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 01:51, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
That didn't quite work out. The reference turned into a footnote. I'll try it again:
Shortly after his marriage, at the age of twenty-two, Oxford was licensed to enter on his lands by the Queen's letters patent of 30 May 1572. Reference cited: The National Archives C 66/1090, mm. 29-30.
Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 22:42, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
I'm sure you're right. I have very little knowledge in this area. I was going by the language you used, specifically "levied". My impression is that fines were issued and recorded, not levied, which to me (in my admitted ignorance, again) implies a penalty and not a land conveyance.
I have asked for some help from the OR noticeboard. Opinions from disinterested editors is almost always helpful. Tom Reedy ( talk) 18:19, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
Nina, how is that a third one? She obviously has made several mistakes in citing P.R.O. C66/1091/3159, m. 29-30, because C66/1091 doesn't exist, nor does C66/1091/3159, and C66/3159 is from 26 Chas II, but P.R.O. C66/1090/3159 is the same as P.R.O. C66/1091/3159, m. 29-30--she just left out the membrane numbers (but they're both wrong).
Above you wrote, "But Wikipedia can't cite Daphne Pearson's book or Alan Nelson's book for this fact in Oxford's life because Pearson and Nelson are in conflict with respect to both the date (Pearson has 31 May, Alan has 30 May) and the reference ..." How does Pearson's error affect Nelson's cite? He has the right date and a good cite, yes? So in answer to your question, "So how do Wikipedia editors choose between citing Nelson or Pearson when they're in direct conflict with each other?", the editors choose Nelson. From my understanding this is the way primary sources are used: "All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors." So in this particular case it would be referenced by Nelson as a secondary source.
To determine which source, Pearson or Nelson, has priority, WP:RS says, "Material such as an article, book, monograph, or research paper that has been vetted by the scholarly community is regarded as reliable. If the material has been published in reputable peer-reviewed sources or by well-regarded academic presses, generally it has been at least preliminarily vetted by one or more other scholars." Both Nelson and Pearson have been reviewed, and the reviews I have read rate Nelson above Pearson as far as accuracy and scholarship, so he would be preferred over Pearson.
As far as using your transcriptions and translations of primary sources, WP:V says, "...self-published media, such as books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, personal or group blogs, Internet forum postings, and tweets, are largely not acceptable as sources. Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications."
I suggest you read WP:RS and WP:V. It takes repeated reading to get a grasp of Wikipedia policies. I'm still learning almost every day. Tom Reedy ( talk) 21:55, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
PS: I doubt we'll get any input from uninvolved editors. Any topic related to the SAQ in any way has long been worn out as far as uninvolved editors are concerned.
Yes, the Calendar of Patent Rolls is a primary source. See the article Calendar of Patent Rolls. I can only repeat my quotation of Wikipedia policy: "All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors." This conversation seems to be going around and around. Have you read the policies I linked to? Here they are again: WP:RS and WP:V, and also WP:OR.
That means that, as per Wikipedia policy, if you use the original National Archive record or the Calendar of Patent Rolls description to source the statement that Oxford was licensed to enter on his lands by the Queen's letters patent of 30 May 1572 in a Wikipedia article, it must be referenced to a secondary source because the original is in Latin and not readily accessible to the average reader. Please read the appropriate policies before you repeat your objection to Wikipedia policies. I understand that you have no such policy for your Web site, but this is Wikipedia, with its own policies and guidelines. Tom Reedy ( talk) 15:55, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
Nina, you can stop adding colons. One I outdented (that line thingey above that brought my comment back to the left of the page) it starts all over again. The only purpose of progressive indentation is to make clear who is replying to whom.
The CPR is clearly a primary source when it is used as a reference for an article on Oxford. The fact that it is of a secondary derivation is not relevant to it being a source for an encyclopedia article, as it does not establish notability for Oxford nor discuss or analyse the entry how it relates to him, but is merely an index list of entries in the patent rolls. See both Secondary source and WP:PRIMARY. And yes, WP:OR is relevant to this because your use of your original research to source a statement is what brought this whole thing on.
What do you have against using Nelson, since the primary source supports his statement? I realise you're not used to doing things the Wikipedia way, but it is based upon scholarly methodology and if one insists on editing Wikipedia articles one must at least attempt to understand how they should be sourced. Arguing against the policy of the encyclopedia is useless. Tom Reedy ( talk) 17:39, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
So that's where Daphene got 'P.R.O. C66/1090/3159 (Lat.)', with the last four numbers being the CPR reference. And there are numerous factual errors in every book; this one--if it proves to be one--is certainly very minor.
I'll look at Alan's cite later today. Are you sure he uses the same book/citation style as you do? Because often reference numbers change as repositories change their systems, although I don't think that's the case here, since Nelson is earlier than Daphne. I find it hard to believe that two independent researchers would get the same citation wrong. One or the other is using a different reference or a different system. and have you checked his Web site to see if this has been acknowledged and corrected? Tom Reedy ( talk) 16:38, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
Where is the Wikipedia policy statement which provides that Wikipedia editors are to correct the errors in Alan Nelson's book rather than cite the Calendar of Patent Rolls which has the correct date and the correct reference in case a reader wanted to consult the original document? Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 02:48, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for the PDFs. I e-mailed Alan and aske dhim about it and received a reply just a while ago. He wrote, "I transcribed probably a million words for the book; I suppose I can be forgiven a few incorrect page numbers", especially since he said that that Liverpool University Press published his book without hiring a copy editor to check citations.
He also wrote that academic reviews of the book have been excellent, and such reviews are one way Wikipedia assesses a source. He writes that he will correct any errors in his transcriptions of the texts, but that he isn't worried that a page number error would invalidate his book.
And BTW, I also brought to his attention some other inconsistencies and errors in the citations, such as p. 455, note 16: CPR, 1569-72, p. 159 [3094-95]. The idea that these errors disqualify his book as a source for this article is ludicrous, but if you disagree you can take it to the WP:RS noticeboard and solicit other opinions. Tom Reedy ( talk) 23:01, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
Your depiction of my consulting Alan Nelson and your conclusions are just bizarre. You need to seek an opinion from WP:NOR/N. Tom Reedy ( talk) 17:34, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
Bio and publications of Achsah Guibbory: Ann Whitney Olin Professor of English, joined the faculty of Barnard in 2004, after teaching at the University of Illinois for many years. At Barnard, her teaching specialties include Milton, Donne, seventeenth-century literature and nation-formation, and Christian/Jewish relations and religious identities in the early modern period. She is affiliated with Barnard's Medieval and Renaissance studies program. Her book, Christian Identity, Jews, and Israel in Seventeenth-century England, has been just published by Oxford University Press (fall 2010). The research for this book was supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Senior Research Fellowship (2002) and a Guggenheim Fellowship (2008). Her other publications include Ceremony and Community from Herbert to Milton (Cambridge University Press, 1998), The Cambridge Companion to John Donne (2006), and numerous journal articles and book chapters on seventeenth-century literature and culture.
Her review, “Recent Studies in the English Renaissance” in Studies in English Literature 1500-1900, 45:1, Winter 2005, pp. 213-254, begins, "It is remarkable how many of the books I received are about history: a number are written by historians, and published in a history series. I had expected a couple might be, but most, I thought, would be in 'Renaissance nondramatic literature,' even as the field has in many instances morphed into cultural history. So I was surprised when I kept receiving shipments of 'history' books. Perhaps the traditional boundaries between literature and history (at least on the part of 'literary scholars') really are breaking down, not only as we recognize the need to historicize, but also as we enlarge the category of 'literature' (in itself a kind of return, with a difference, to the situation in the Renaissance when disciplinary spheres were as yet not sharply differentiated, where one could be a 'literary author' and much else). It seems, however, more than that, and prompts me to ask several questions for which it is too early to provide answers."
Her one-paragraph review of Nelson:
Bio and publications of Gabriel Heaton: He took his first degree at the University of Durham, and obtained his doctorate from Cambridge in 2003. He worked as a postdoctoral research fellow at the University of Warwick, editing Elizabethan entertainments and related texts for Court and Culture in the Reign of Queen Elizabeth I: A New Edition of John Nichols's Progresses. He is also the author of a number of articles on subjects including entertainments, libels, and the poet Aurelian Townshend. Dr Heaton currently works in the Department of Printed Books and Manuscripts at Sotheby's, where he is a Deputy Director specialising in post-Medieval English manuscripts. He is the author of numerous academic articles, and of Writing and Reading Royal Entertainments From George Gascoigne to Ben Jonson, published June 2010 by Oxford University Press.
His conclusion about Nelson’s book (beginning with the sentence you stopped at):
’nuff said. Tom Reedy ( talk) 20:31, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
There are very few reliable sources on the factual details of Oxford's life. It seems to have been assumed until now for purposes of editing this page that Alan Nelson's Monstrous Adversary is a reliable source, and that it can be cited for virtually any statement made in it without the editors of this page doing any fact-checking. That assumption has been challenged by the errors already documented on this discussion page. Here's another one. On pp. 308-9 Alan writes:
Oxford's sale of Colne Priory to the Harlakendens, and Oxford's lawsuit against the Harlakendens for fraud which followed it, are important and well-documented events in Oxford's life (see the numerous items related to the sale and the lawsuit on the Documents page of my website). It's difficult to believe that Alan could make the erroneous claim that Oxford had already sold Colne Priory to Roger Harlakenden by May 1588 when Oxford did not sell Colne Priory until February 1592. But there it is, in black and white. Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 00:22, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
Unfortunately, Wikipedia doesn't go by your opinion of what qualifies as a reliable source. If you want to specifically ask about Monstrous Adversary, you need to do so at WP:RS/N. While you're at it, you might as well ask whether the Calendar of Patent Rolls is a secondary source. Until then (and I would wager afterward), Nelson is considered a reliable source and the CPR is considered a primary source. Tom Reedy ( talk) 02:12, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
That is not the sole topic he wrote to Cecil about. He reported that he had scheduled a meeting with Philip Chiverny, and that a Flemish painter had said he could be persuaded to go to England to paint because he didn't like Paris, and that he had done a very good portrait of Oxford (probably the one that the article's main image is based upon). My point is that larding an article with every detail makes for tediousness and that if that detail should be included, it should be in relation to the portrait. That section is woefully empty of where Oxford went and what he did during his travels, jumping from his leaving to his return within a few sentences, and then goes into family details. Tom Reedy ( talk) 17:26, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, Tom. Though it could be doubted the present portrait is as witty & significant as the device that prompted the remark, the letter shows that Valentine was intimate with his master's former ward's Paris sojourn, which was long enough to dally with a painter, and so is a detail of his travels. Unoquha ( talk) 19:18, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
How about this on p.9:
As a source for John Golding's death, Alan cites this on p. 444:
Alan doesn't even appear to have noticed that in the text he refers to Golding five times as a knight, but provides as a source for his burial a reference which refers to him as an esquire. Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 06:51, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
Is this what one expects from a reliable source, using someone else's translation without citing it? True, it's only a single sentence, but nonetheless, the translation was Ward's not Alan's. Why didn't Alan cite Ward? Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 16:06, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
Yet another egregious error. On p. 11 Alan writes:
Alan cites as his source Buc (1982), pp. 169-70, that is, Kincaid's edition cited above. But when one turns to pp. 169-70, one finds that it was not a prophecy at all. It was Buc's own statement, made when he wrote the book:
The statement is clearly ridiculous. Buc went mad before his death, and one can't help but wonder what his state of mind was when he wrote this. The 13th Earl, of whom Buc is speaking, died in 1513, as Alan says above, and Buc is therefore stating that less than 60 years later, i.e. circa 1571, when Oxford reached the age of majority, the whole earldom was wasted and the bones of Oxford's ancestors were lying in the fields. Utter nonsense.
Moreover in addition to claiming something as a prophecy which his source indicates clearly was not a prophecy, and in addition to giving credence to a clearly nonsensical statement, Alan has deliberately or carelessly distorted what Buc actually said. Buc did not say 'that in fewer years than the 13th Earl had lived'. He said 'within less than threescore years after the death of the said Earl John'. This deliberate or careless distortion by Alan makes a huge difference. What Buc actually said makes these events happen by circa 1571. By distorting Buc's statement, Alan brings the date to 1583 (see above). Is Alan's book a reliable source? Nina Green —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 17:57, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
A well-reviewed book on a literary/historical figure by an emeritus professor of English at one of the best research universities in the world, published by the university press of an important British university, and written more or less in the author's area of specialty, is obviously a reliable source. That doesn't mean it can't contain errors, but this whole effort is ridiculous. john k ( talk) 19:45, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
I just noticed that, after having dubbed John Golding a knight five times on p. 9, and having recorded his burial as an esquire in an endnote on p. 444, Alan has him as an esquire again on p.14:
Here is an instance where Alan clearly does not know what he is talking about. Referring to the Protector Somerset's extortion of the 16th Earl's lands, Alan writes on p. 17:
Somerset's extortion against the 16th Earl was most certainly reversed by a 'subsequent Act of Parliament' (see HL/PO/PB/1/1551/5E6n35 on the Documents page of my website), but it was never 'enforced' by a 'subsequent Act of Parliament'. This is an error of major proportions. Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 21:36, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
Alan ends Chapter 3 with yet another major error concerning the consequences of Somerset's extortion against the 16th Earl. On p. 19 he writes:
Leaving aside the amusing suggestion that his execution 'weakened' Somerset's hold on the 16th Earl :-), Alan is so vague here that the reader hasn't the faintest idea what he's talking about. As his authority for the vague statement that Somerset's hold 'terminated on 22 January 1553', Alan cites on p. 446:
Once again Alan vaguely refers to that Act of Parliament which he apparently never set eyes on since he never gives a reference number for it, and did not recognize a direct paraphrase from it when he ran across it on p.235 of Louis Thorn Golding's An Elizabethan Puritan. Alan's second reference is to TNA C 66/848, which is available on the Documents page of my website. Alan's reference makes it clear that he hasn't researched this point any further than the Calendar of Patent Rolls. Yet Alan holds forth on this topic for several pages in his book, drawing conclusions right, left and center, without having looked at the original documents to determine what they actually say. Is Alan's book a reliable source? Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 23:39, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
Another instance involving the consequences of Somerset's extortion where Alan either doesn't know what he's talking about, or uses language so imprecisely that others can't possibly understand the facts correctly. On p. 21, Alan writes:
The indenture was not 'revoked' by the letters patent of that date. The letters patent (TNA C 66/848 on my website) read, in my translation:
In other words, the indentures, which had escheated to the Crown on Somerset's attainder, were granted to the 16th Earl by the King to do what he wanted with them (the only reasonable action being to destroy them). That is not at all the same thing as revocation of the indentures by the letters patent. Alan of course cites only the Calendar of Patent Rolls for this document, and obviously never looked at or translated the document itself. Is Alan's book a reliable source? Nina Green 205.250.205.73 ( talk) 00:40, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
On the face of it, it has all the attributes of a reliable source, but Nina's comments throw so much doubt on the scholarship of Alan H. Nelson of Berkeley that for now I should not choose to cite it myself. This throws up a conundrum for Wikipedians, as we have no mechanisms that I am aware of for judging the merits of sources. Indeed, if Wikipedia were to set itself up to stand in judgement on Professor Nelson, he and his peers would find it comical. I think for now the discrediting of academic works needs to be done elsewhere. Of course, where one of us can show from a primary source that a secondary source is wrong, challenging the statement rather than the credibility of a whole work, that is a proper way to deal with the problems a questionable work causes us. Once several such challenges have succeeded, a source is cited much less often by those who are aware of them. Moonraker2 ( talk) 02:47, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
I would point out that even if we accept that every instance of error pointed out by Nina is in fact an error, then Nelson is still 99 percent correct. I don't have one book on my shelf that is error-free, and that includes Chambers, Schoenbaum, and Wells. To compare Nelson with Ward is like comparing Schoenbaum with Ireland.
I have several times suggested that Nina take her complaints to WP:RS, but she seems to be not listening. Tom Reedy ( talk) 12:59, 23 November 2010 (UTC)