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THis page is SOO BIAS, it is disgraceful. I just has claims made by critics.
I agree some work should be done to eliminate bias in the article and some phrases should be removed because they haven't been cited.-- 74.203.180.247 ( talk) 06:54, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Amen on the bias, citation #1 of the article is an article written by Karl Rove (a person who definitely has a conflict of interests commenting on the Bush Administration). 71.13.222.6 ( talk) 16:15, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
Agreed, this page is incredibly biased. Citing a column written by a CATO Institute Libertarian for a section on Regulation is like letting Fidel Castro define the efficacy of Capitalism. It's not a wonder the guy who posted it named himself "Bbbbush". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Beerfinger ( talk • contribs) 22:51, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Thanks. The two sections I have a problem with are:
"Economic regulation expanded rapidly during the Bush administration. President Bush is quoted as the biggest regulator since President Richard Nixon.[6] Bush administration increased the number of new pages in the Federal Registry, a proxy for economic regulation, from 64,438 new pages in 2001 to 78,090 in new pages in 2007, a record amount of regulation.[6] Economically significant regulations, defined as regulations which cost more than $100 million a year, increased by 70%.[6]
Spending on regulation increased by 62% from $26.4 billion to $42.7 billion.[6] Whereas President Clinton cut the federal government's regulatory staff, President Bush expanded it by 91,196 workers between 2001 and 2007.[6]"
and
"The tax cuts have been largely opposed by American economists, including the Bush administration's own Economic Advisement Council.[21] In 2003, 450 economists, including ten Nobel Prize laureate, signed the Economists' statement opposing the Bush tax cuts, sent to President Bush stating that "these tax cuts will worsen the long-term budget outlook... will reduce the capacity of the government to finance Social Security and Medicare benefits as well as investments in schools, health, infrastructure, and basic research... [and] generate further inequalities in after-tax income."[51] The Bush administration has claimed, based on the concept of the Laffer Curve, that the tax cuts actually paid for the themselves by generating enough extra revenue from additional economic growth to offset the lower taxation rates. In contrast to the claims made by Bush, Cheney, and Republican presidential primary candidates such as Rudy Giuliani, there is a broad consensus among even conservative economists (including current and former top economists of the Bush Administration such as Greg Mankiw) that the tax cuts have had a substantial net negative impact on revenues (i.e., revenues would have been substantially higher if the tax cuts had not taken place), even taking into account any stimulative effect the tax cuts may have had and any resulting revenue feedback effects.[52] When asked whether the Bush tax cuts had generated more revenue, Laffer stated that he did not know. However, he did say that the tax cuts were "what was right," because after the September 11 attacks and threats of recession, Bush "needed to stimulate the economy and spend for defense."[53]"
The first is a new section. The second is in essence a re-wording. Both edits were made by a user named Bbbbush (emphasis mine).
The source of the first section is "Reason Online" - a Libertarian monthly magazine for the Reason Foundation, a Libertarian thinktank. Their byline is "Free Markets and Free Minds". This is an old adage by Libertarian thinktanks. The source itself, as you can see, is an opinion piece written by Veronique de Rugy. A simple online search of Veronique de Rugy concludes that she is an adjunct scholar at the CATO Institute. The CATO Institute is a Libertarian thinktank.
The source claims that Bush was "the biggest regulator since Nixon." As evidence of this, it claims that increased spending on regulatory agencies constitutes increased regulation. While it may be true that America has spent more on funding it's regulatory agencies over the past 8 years, that does not mean that the result has been more regulation. One of the things that has contributed to the increase in regulatory funding is new hires to the agencies - some of which have been accused of being "in bed" with the very industries they are supposed to be regulating.
The motivation a Libertarian would have to accuse Bush of being a big regulator is because of the current economic crisis. Much of the blame on said crisis has been laid at the feet of deregulation. Deregulation is an age-old goal of Libertarians, so you can see how a CATO Institute Libertarian would be motivated to publish a column making these claims.
How's that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Beerfinger ( talk • contribs) 00:03, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
I'd just like to add that the second pillar of Wikipedia is that materials should be unbiased. I think it's pretty clear that was not the case here with Veronica de Rugy. She was the only source in that entire section.-- Beerfinger ( talk) 00:33, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
There is no evidence that the recently removed section is biased. It is a cited study involving facts and numbers and the only allegation of bias submitted is that the source is a "Libertarian" source. However, this is political censorship and should be no more valid for discounting a properly conducted study than if the study was performed by a Democrat or Republican source. I ask that the passage be restored and, if Beerfinger is able to prove that the study is faulty, then remove it. But until he does so, it should remain in place as a valid study and his allegations of bias are unfounded. Furthermore, he cites that the section is an "opinion" that is shared only by libertarians but the study is not an opinion at all. It is a study performed by counting the number of regulatory dollars spent by the Bush administration and involves no "opinion" at all, it deals with raw numbers. For these reasons the content should be restored. -- Mschmidt64 ( talk) 03:00, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Well, then I feel the study should still be included with the explanation that Bush increased regulation spending, though that spending might have increased personnel and had the effect of deregulation. It is an important study to note, because at the same time many people believe that Bush represented small government and lack of regulation, but while he may have used his spending to increase regulatory spending and regulatory employees, which necessitated increased red tape and procedures when it came to the regulatory process even if the net effect was to loosen oversight in general. Employing regulatory agents and increasing regulatory spending, as Bush did, factually, is still an important part of his economic policy. If the effect of the increased regulation was the loosening of oversight of some industries, users should be able to find similar date to cite that discusses how Bush used increased regulatory agents and regulations to actually decrease regulation. -- Mschmidt64 ( talk) 03:04, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
It is further worth noting that I see no mention of "libertarianism" as a fringe theory and classifying a study as fringe simply because it's source is a libertarian source seems to me to be a dangerous policy and should be avoided. -- Mschmidt64 ( talk) 03:06, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
I do not believe AuburnPilot has stated that libertarian sources should be classified as "fringe" sources. And if he did, I would feel he is incorrect. Libertarians should not be considered "fringe" sources as they are a valid political party and not any more prone to lies or misinformation than Democrats or Republicans (indeed, some might say less). Furthermore, any "opinion" interjection by the author can easily be contextualized by wikipedia writers, and the raw facts, which are not opinions, are still valid to prove an essential point regarding George W. Bush's economic policy. If they are not incorrect, then they are factual, and should be allowed to be posted to demonstrate that point; namely, that Bush still increased red tape, regulatory agents, and regulatory spending. This spending wasn't being spent on nothing. To insinuate that it was, as an earlier poster put it, would be a lie by omission. Bush was not a laissez-faire president and to paint him as such would be incorrect. -- Mschmidt64 ( talk) 03:59, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
I was only in this for the removal of sourced info. Now that the discussion has descended into politics, for a lack of better words, I'm out. Peace.— Dæ dαlus Contribs 05:49, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
In order to just get the facts out there, I think this page should include some of the actual figures of the Bush tax cuts. They are available on reference #12, and they could be simplified for the sake of easy reading on this page. For example, the top marginal income rate went from 39.6% to 35%, as the article states, but brackets for middle-income earners also went down. The ~$40,000-$100,000 bracket went down from 27.5% to 25%, between 2000 and 2003. -- AaronM ( talk) 03:55, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
An anon IP author attempted to disprove the statement quoted from Brookings Institution (a centrist think-tank) with CBO data regarding the income of the top 1% between 2001 & 2004. First, that is OR. There is a difference between quoting reputable economists, representative of their profession when they state that tax cuts redistributed income from lower/working/middle to upper class households, and attempting to prove the opposite oneself with CBO data (the former is OK according to WP policy, while the latter is not). Moreover, the tax cuts went into effect in 2003; thus, the decline of income experienced among the top 1% in 2001-2003 (which in turn caused their mean income to be lower in '04 then in '01) is irrelevant here; especially as the gains made by that group since 2004 have more than off-set the fleeting decline in mean income experienced between 2001-2003 by that group - propelling its total share of income to the highest level since 1929. Least but not last, Townhall.com is not, unlike the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, a reputable or acceptable source. No reputable source sells t-shirts advocating a political ideology on the margins of its articles. Signature brendel 09:09, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
As you have used more reputable sources this time (though CATO is bias, but we do allow think tank on WP), I have kept just about all your changes, though I did add critique of Reynold and added an explicit position regarding the stance most economists take on the issue of inequality. Also, we use seasonally adjusted figures regarding unemployment; thus, it was at 4.2, not 4.7 per cent in Janurary '01. If you would like to add unadjusted data, go ahead. Signature brendel 03:26, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Brendel, I am noticing a disturbing trend among your edits, where you rephrase sections for no other reason than to downplay the facts that don’t support the anti-Bush agenda. For example, I wrote: “According to a March 2006 report by the Joint Economic Committe, the U.S. economy outperformed its peer group of large developed economies from 2001 to 2005. (The other economies are Canada, the European Union, and Japan.) The U.S. led in real GDP growth, investment, industrial production, employment, labor productivity, and price stability.” All of this is factually accurate, and taken directly from the cited report. However, you rephrased it as: “Despite growth levels considerably below previous levels, the U.S. did experience greater growth in GDP, investment, industrial production, employment, labor productivity, and price stability than most other developed countries.” So first, you add in the “despite growth levels…” disclaimer, which is redundant to the previous paragraphs. Then you took out the reference to the 2001–2005 time period, removed the reference to “large developed economies” (the group that the study specifically cited), and changed it to “most other developed countries.” The overall purpose is to soften the factual statements from the report, presumably to support some agenda of your own. I am restoring the original phrasing; if you can find something factually inaccurate with what I wrote, let me know. 75.30.225.147 ( talk) 07:48, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Here is another change which I feel is unwarranted and biased. My original summary of an article was: "Between 2003 and 2004, the year following the 2003 tax cuts, the share of after-tax income going to the top 1% rose from 12.2 percent in 2003 to 14.0 percent in 2004, equivalent to an inflation adjusted $146,000 per household. (This followed the period from 2000 to 2002, where after-tax incomes declined the most for the top 1%.)" This was modified to read: "Between 2003 and 2004, the year following the tax cuts, the average after-tax income of the top 1% rose by an inflation adjusted $146,000." Again, going through the changes one by one: There were tax cuts in 2001, 2002, and 2003, so it is important to say WHICH tax cuts; when talking about increases, the data is more significant if you include the percentage increase, because an absolute number is irrelevant without knowing the relative percentage; and why did you remove the statement (also in the article) that after-tax incomes declined from 2000 to 2002 the MOST for the top 1%? I suppose if someone wanted to, they could say that you were biased to include the period where income for the top 1% went UP the most, while omitting the period where income for the top 1% went DOWN the most. But of course, I would not accuse you of bias, because I assume the best. Oh, and you also removed the CBO data which shows that the tax liabilities went up for the top 1%, while tax liabilites for the bottom 80% went down. If you want to make a point about how tax cuts caused inequality among income groups, then that would be an important statistic to cite. It is much more relevant than citing a meaningless statistic like “the after-tax income for the top 1% rose by $146,000.” 75.30.225.147 ( talk) 08:44, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Brendel, I don’t know what to do with you. As you obviously know, there are always statistics which support one viewpoint or another. However, you seem determined to remove all statistics which show how tax cuts have lowered the tax burden of the bottom 80%, and instead choose to add statistics which show that the top 1% have gained more income. Is this really how Wikipedia works: You just remove statistics that you disagree with or feel are irrelevant, and replace them with statistics which support your own viewpoint? I am tired of you removing the same sections over and over again without justification or explanation. 75.30.225.147 ( talk) 18:31, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm totally open to fixing POV, OR, and referencing issues. Please point them out so that we can discuss them instead of deleting big sections of the article. johnpseudo 18:42, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Honestly, does anyone use this page for discussion about proposed changes any more? With the latest round of edits, I noticed a disturbing trend, where relevant information is being removed as “POV pushing" and "OR", when the sections removed are neither. Meanwhile, large sections are being "edited" by copying and pasting those same sections from previous versions, often introducing the same typos and grammatical errors which have been fixed over the course of weeks or months previously. This kind of slipshod editing is bad for the article, and should be avoided. If you are going to remove whole paragraphs of information, at least TRY to explain why those paragraphs are inaccurate. The Vidiot ( talk) 17:57, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Vidiot's edits included three aspects that I oppose. I started three sub-sections for discussion.-- Bkwillwm ( talk) 02:20, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Diff Vidiot cites a Tax Foundation blog post that claims that the Bush tax cut made the tax code more progressive. The blog post argues that the wealthy now pay a larger share of the US's tax burden. This is a redefinition of tax progressivity. A progressive tax is one where, as a person's income goes up, the greater the share of their income that they pay in tax. A tax is considered more progressive when higher income individuals pay at a higher rate, this is the standard definition for what tax progressivity is and the blog post is just spin. We can include that fact that the wealthy are paying a higher share of the total tax paid, but that is only because they are wealthy. Vidiot also added this cite from the CBPP, which does a pretty good job of refuting everything that the Tax Foundation argued, and what Vidiot tried to post. The CBPP article says the complete opposite of the text that references it.-- Bkwillwm ( talk) 02:20, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Diff Vidiot removed a quote and said that it was "hypothetical." Only one part of the quote was at all hypothetical, and it was a budget forecast, which is perfectly acceptable in a Wikipedia article. Vidiot then reverted it again and said that even the parts that weren't forecast related were "estimates." Considering all economic numbers are estimates, I think this argument is even less legitimate.-- Bkwillwm ( talk) 02:20, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Diff This addition supported by one citation of economic statistics (estimates, by the way) but includes many claims based off the statistics, including the POV statement that "[Bush] managed to keep the economy out of a recession." This section is POV and is original research.-- Bkwillwm ( talk) 02:20, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
“ | The most significant domestic policy initative of the past decade has been a massive government-engineered trasnfer of additional wealth from the lower and middle classes to the rich in the form of substantial reductions in federal income taxes... the total cost to the federal treassury of those cuts from 2001 through 2013 [is estimated] at $4.6 trillion... Many of the specific provisions... disproportinonally benefited wealthy taxpayers, including cuts in the top rate, reducations in taxes on dividends and capital gains, and a gradual elimination of the estate tax... As a result... the total federal tax burden in 2010 will decline by 25% for the richest 1% of taxpayers and by 21% for the next richest 4%, but only by 10% for taxpayers in the bottom 95%." | ” |
References
I have re-inserted the bit about Bush being the first president in a very long time to go an entire term without vetoing any legislation. I'm not sure if that's completely relevant, so it may be removed on those grounds -- but it is correct. I think the confusion has to do with the meaning of the word "term." Bush served two terms as president. He did veto legislation in his second term, but not in his first. Kier07 ( talk) 03:29, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
Despite leaving office with an ongoing recession, the economy performed strongly for the most part of Bush's Presidency. This included nearly six years of uninterrupted growth and the strongest economy of any developed country.
This is POV, the first source is in COI, asking the senior political advisor to write up an article describing the greatness of the President he got elected is absolute POV, find a credibicle economists to say that instead, though if memory serves the actual economists tore this article to shreads as being nothing but spin. The second link is dead. 161.150.2.58 ( talk) 14:40, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Hi JustGettingItRight, could clarify your justification for removing the image in the introduction? Thank you. -- Beerfinger ( talk) 20:21, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Here is the compilation of my recent edits if anyone wants to review. My changes. I made three changes: 1. Reverted hidden vandalism on a link, 2. added a citation needed tag for one assertion that I think is right but a citation is still needed, and 3. removed a very large POV image that was in the intro.
Here is the image for review as a link Image removed from intro
This was a self created image. However, this image's use of the red color font as well as having a smiling picture of George W. Bush inserted in between the 2001 deficit and 2008 deficit, with the number 4.9T above his head, implying, possibly incorrectly, that George W. Bush was responsible for the deficit increase (as well as not having the axis going down to zero) is not what one would expect from an encyclopedia. Facts speak a lot louder than misleading graphs and the graph brings (what I feel are rightful) allegations of a systemic bias against George W. Bush. JustGettingItRight ( talk) 20:48, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
I would not oppose the creation of an NPOV graph showing the increase in the deficit during the Bush administration (with the axis starting at zero - we learned about this in 4th grade), but any graph with a smiling picture of Bush up top should not be included. JustGettingItRight ( talk) 20:50, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
I'm not accusing anybody of this, but this article should not be a battleground in support or in opposition to Bush's economic policies. Rather it should matter of factly state what his policies were and what the economic indicators were. It should not offer selective opinion, positive or negative, of the effect of Bush's economic policies. JustGettingItRight ( talk) 07:13, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
1. Re: Whether the revenues grew as tax rates fell, as predicted by the Laffer Curve: "However, income tax revenues in dollar terms did not regain their FY 2000 peak until 2006" -This speaks for itself.
In other words, as the tax cuts got larger with each successive year, it follows that the revenues DID grow until it surpassed the pre-tax cut levels by 2006. Ergo, those who thought the Laffer curve would mean more revenue were correct: Cutting taxes DID produce more revenue than before the taxes had been cut. (This can also be seen in the declining yearly deficits up until the crisis in 2008.)
2. There is NO doubt that the Bush tax cuts shifted more of the income tax burden onto higher earners. It's basic math. The bottom income tax rate was slashed by 33% from 15% to 10%. The next rate was slashed by a smaller amount, and so on with the highest bracket being slashed from 39.1% to 35%, a reduction of 11.7%. Since the lower brackets were cut far more drastically than the higher brackets, it follows that the income tax burden (the total percentage of tax revenue each bracket represents) shifted into the upper brackets.
I'd really like to see this article's language updated to reflect these logically necessary facts, since now these areas seem to carry a taint of readily disprovable rhetoric. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.168.129.57 ( talk) 03:17, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
"Nobel laureate Joseph Stiglitz has estimated the total cost of the Iraq War at closer to $3 trillion.[39]"
We have actual data on what these wars cost, and it's about $100B per year according to the CBO. Taking some claim of what they will supposedly cost several decades down the line is not only highly speculative, but completely at odds with a discussion of a historical date range. Does the Costs of the Great Society article (or Economic policies of LBJ) calculate the costs of a Medicare Bankruptcy in 2045? Would a discussion of the costs of the New Deal discuss the bankruptcy of Social Security in 2070? How would Stiglitz separate costs directly attributable from the wars in 2040 from the costs of soldiers who simply required the higher standard of care required by an elderly person in 2040 without a time machine? Obviously He can't. This is an unsupportable statement based on a blatent appeal to authority (for an unrelated body of work) that does nothing to advance the reader's understanding of the actual budget deficits from 2001-2008. 173.168.129.57 ( talk) 04:25, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
You know when a common person knowing breaks the law he or she is held accountable for their actions. President George W Bush was told over and over again that his policies where going to break the will of nation and great harm will come of it. It's now the summer of 2010 and we still have not seen the last of what President Bush's Policies did to our nation. I wish there was a way to hold him accoutable to the American People. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.124.224.52 ( talk) 16:11, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
This image carries the caption "Breakdown of debt incurred between 2001 and 2006" which must be incorrect because the sourced article from which it takes its data never gives figures for a "breakdown of debt." That article, "FROM SURPLUS TO DEFICIT: Legislation Enacted Over the Last Six Years Has Raised the Debt by $2.3 Trillion," does supply hypothetical numbers obtained from a CBO report but those numbers concern the effect of legislation enacted from 2001 to mid-2006 on the debt.
Taken literally, this graph is saying to me that the war in Iraq & Afghanistan contributed more than 3x as much to the debt as Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid put together.
Some may argue that only the caption should be changed but I think the graph should be deleted. The other ones accompanying this article are sufficient and they are current to 2008 while this graph's data stops in August of 2006 though the article is dated 12/10. A bigger question concerns whether the article's sponsor, the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, a think-tank with a well-known liberal bias, is a legitimate source for Wikipedia. They seem to me to be about as biased to the left as the Heritage Foundation is to the right. TL36 ( talk) 02:06, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
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THis page is SOO BIAS, it is disgraceful. I just has claims made by critics.
I agree some work should be done to eliminate bias in the article and some phrases should be removed because they haven't been cited.-- 74.203.180.247 ( talk) 06:54, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Amen on the bias, citation #1 of the article is an article written by Karl Rove (a person who definitely has a conflict of interests commenting on the Bush Administration). 71.13.222.6 ( talk) 16:15, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
Agreed, this page is incredibly biased. Citing a column written by a CATO Institute Libertarian for a section on Regulation is like letting Fidel Castro define the efficacy of Capitalism. It's not a wonder the guy who posted it named himself "Bbbbush". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Beerfinger ( talk • contribs) 22:51, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Thanks. The two sections I have a problem with are:
"Economic regulation expanded rapidly during the Bush administration. President Bush is quoted as the biggest regulator since President Richard Nixon.[6] Bush administration increased the number of new pages in the Federal Registry, a proxy for economic regulation, from 64,438 new pages in 2001 to 78,090 in new pages in 2007, a record amount of regulation.[6] Economically significant regulations, defined as regulations which cost more than $100 million a year, increased by 70%.[6]
Spending on regulation increased by 62% from $26.4 billion to $42.7 billion.[6] Whereas President Clinton cut the federal government's regulatory staff, President Bush expanded it by 91,196 workers between 2001 and 2007.[6]"
and
"The tax cuts have been largely opposed by American economists, including the Bush administration's own Economic Advisement Council.[21] In 2003, 450 economists, including ten Nobel Prize laureate, signed the Economists' statement opposing the Bush tax cuts, sent to President Bush stating that "these tax cuts will worsen the long-term budget outlook... will reduce the capacity of the government to finance Social Security and Medicare benefits as well as investments in schools, health, infrastructure, and basic research... [and] generate further inequalities in after-tax income."[51] The Bush administration has claimed, based on the concept of the Laffer Curve, that the tax cuts actually paid for the themselves by generating enough extra revenue from additional economic growth to offset the lower taxation rates. In contrast to the claims made by Bush, Cheney, and Republican presidential primary candidates such as Rudy Giuliani, there is a broad consensus among even conservative economists (including current and former top economists of the Bush Administration such as Greg Mankiw) that the tax cuts have had a substantial net negative impact on revenues (i.e., revenues would have been substantially higher if the tax cuts had not taken place), even taking into account any stimulative effect the tax cuts may have had and any resulting revenue feedback effects.[52] When asked whether the Bush tax cuts had generated more revenue, Laffer stated that he did not know. However, he did say that the tax cuts were "what was right," because after the September 11 attacks and threats of recession, Bush "needed to stimulate the economy and spend for defense."[53]"
The first is a new section. The second is in essence a re-wording. Both edits were made by a user named Bbbbush (emphasis mine).
The source of the first section is "Reason Online" - a Libertarian monthly magazine for the Reason Foundation, a Libertarian thinktank. Their byline is "Free Markets and Free Minds". This is an old adage by Libertarian thinktanks. The source itself, as you can see, is an opinion piece written by Veronique de Rugy. A simple online search of Veronique de Rugy concludes that she is an adjunct scholar at the CATO Institute. The CATO Institute is a Libertarian thinktank.
The source claims that Bush was "the biggest regulator since Nixon." As evidence of this, it claims that increased spending on regulatory agencies constitutes increased regulation. While it may be true that America has spent more on funding it's regulatory agencies over the past 8 years, that does not mean that the result has been more regulation. One of the things that has contributed to the increase in regulatory funding is new hires to the agencies - some of which have been accused of being "in bed" with the very industries they are supposed to be regulating.
The motivation a Libertarian would have to accuse Bush of being a big regulator is because of the current economic crisis. Much of the blame on said crisis has been laid at the feet of deregulation. Deregulation is an age-old goal of Libertarians, so you can see how a CATO Institute Libertarian would be motivated to publish a column making these claims.
How's that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Beerfinger ( talk • contribs) 00:03, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
I'd just like to add that the second pillar of Wikipedia is that materials should be unbiased. I think it's pretty clear that was not the case here with Veronica de Rugy. She was the only source in that entire section.-- Beerfinger ( talk) 00:33, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
There is no evidence that the recently removed section is biased. It is a cited study involving facts and numbers and the only allegation of bias submitted is that the source is a "Libertarian" source. However, this is political censorship and should be no more valid for discounting a properly conducted study than if the study was performed by a Democrat or Republican source. I ask that the passage be restored and, if Beerfinger is able to prove that the study is faulty, then remove it. But until he does so, it should remain in place as a valid study and his allegations of bias are unfounded. Furthermore, he cites that the section is an "opinion" that is shared only by libertarians but the study is not an opinion at all. It is a study performed by counting the number of regulatory dollars spent by the Bush administration and involves no "opinion" at all, it deals with raw numbers. For these reasons the content should be restored. -- Mschmidt64 ( talk) 03:00, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Well, then I feel the study should still be included with the explanation that Bush increased regulation spending, though that spending might have increased personnel and had the effect of deregulation. It is an important study to note, because at the same time many people believe that Bush represented small government and lack of regulation, but while he may have used his spending to increase regulatory spending and regulatory employees, which necessitated increased red tape and procedures when it came to the regulatory process even if the net effect was to loosen oversight in general. Employing regulatory agents and increasing regulatory spending, as Bush did, factually, is still an important part of his economic policy. If the effect of the increased regulation was the loosening of oversight of some industries, users should be able to find similar date to cite that discusses how Bush used increased regulatory agents and regulations to actually decrease regulation. -- Mschmidt64 ( talk) 03:04, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
It is further worth noting that I see no mention of "libertarianism" as a fringe theory and classifying a study as fringe simply because it's source is a libertarian source seems to me to be a dangerous policy and should be avoided. -- Mschmidt64 ( talk) 03:06, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
I do not believe AuburnPilot has stated that libertarian sources should be classified as "fringe" sources. And if he did, I would feel he is incorrect. Libertarians should not be considered "fringe" sources as they are a valid political party and not any more prone to lies or misinformation than Democrats or Republicans (indeed, some might say less). Furthermore, any "opinion" interjection by the author can easily be contextualized by wikipedia writers, and the raw facts, which are not opinions, are still valid to prove an essential point regarding George W. Bush's economic policy. If they are not incorrect, then they are factual, and should be allowed to be posted to demonstrate that point; namely, that Bush still increased red tape, regulatory agents, and regulatory spending. This spending wasn't being spent on nothing. To insinuate that it was, as an earlier poster put it, would be a lie by omission. Bush was not a laissez-faire president and to paint him as such would be incorrect. -- Mschmidt64 ( talk) 03:59, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
I was only in this for the removal of sourced info. Now that the discussion has descended into politics, for a lack of better words, I'm out. Peace.— Dæ dαlus Contribs 05:49, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
In order to just get the facts out there, I think this page should include some of the actual figures of the Bush tax cuts. They are available on reference #12, and they could be simplified for the sake of easy reading on this page. For example, the top marginal income rate went from 39.6% to 35%, as the article states, but brackets for middle-income earners also went down. The ~$40,000-$100,000 bracket went down from 27.5% to 25%, between 2000 and 2003. -- AaronM ( talk) 03:55, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
An anon IP author attempted to disprove the statement quoted from Brookings Institution (a centrist think-tank) with CBO data regarding the income of the top 1% between 2001 & 2004. First, that is OR. There is a difference between quoting reputable economists, representative of their profession when they state that tax cuts redistributed income from lower/working/middle to upper class households, and attempting to prove the opposite oneself with CBO data (the former is OK according to WP policy, while the latter is not). Moreover, the tax cuts went into effect in 2003; thus, the decline of income experienced among the top 1% in 2001-2003 (which in turn caused their mean income to be lower in '04 then in '01) is irrelevant here; especially as the gains made by that group since 2004 have more than off-set the fleeting decline in mean income experienced between 2001-2003 by that group - propelling its total share of income to the highest level since 1929. Least but not last, Townhall.com is not, unlike the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, a reputable or acceptable source. No reputable source sells t-shirts advocating a political ideology on the margins of its articles. Signature brendel 09:09, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
As you have used more reputable sources this time (though CATO is bias, but we do allow think tank on WP), I have kept just about all your changes, though I did add critique of Reynold and added an explicit position regarding the stance most economists take on the issue of inequality. Also, we use seasonally adjusted figures regarding unemployment; thus, it was at 4.2, not 4.7 per cent in Janurary '01. If you would like to add unadjusted data, go ahead. Signature brendel 03:26, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Brendel, I am noticing a disturbing trend among your edits, where you rephrase sections for no other reason than to downplay the facts that don’t support the anti-Bush agenda. For example, I wrote: “According to a March 2006 report by the Joint Economic Committe, the U.S. economy outperformed its peer group of large developed economies from 2001 to 2005. (The other economies are Canada, the European Union, and Japan.) The U.S. led in real GDP growth, investment, industrial production, employment, labor productivity, and price stability.” All of this is factually accurate, and taken directly from the cited report. However, you rephrased it as: “Despite growth levels considerably below previous levels, the U.S. did experience greater growth in GDP, investment, industrial production, employment, labor productivity, and price stability than most other developed countries.” So first, you add in the “despite growth levels…” disclaimer, which is redundant to the previous paragraphs. Then you took out the reference to the 2001–2005 time period, removed the reference to “large developed economies” (the group that the study specifically cited), and changed it to “most other developed countries.” The overall purpose is to soften the factual statements from the report, presumably to support some agenda of your own. I am restoring the original phrasing; if you can find something factually inaccurate with what I wrote, let me know. 75.30.225.147 ( talk) 07:48, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Here is another change which I feel is unwarranted and biased. My original summary of an article was: "Between 2003 and 2004, the year following the 2003 tax cuts, the share of after-tax income going to the top 1% rose from 12.2 percent in 2003 to 14.0 percent in 2004, equivalent to an inflation adjusted $146,000 per household. (This followed the period from 2000 to 2002, where after-tax incomes declined the most for the top 1%.)" This was modified to read: "Between 2003 and 2004, the year following the tax cuts, the average after-tax income of the top 1% rose by an inflation adjusted $146,000." Again, going through the changes one by one: There were tax cuts in 2001, 2002, and 2003, so it is important to say WHICH tax cuts; when talking about increases, the data is more significant if you include the percentage increase, because an absolute number is irrelevant without knowing the relative percentage; and why did you remove the statement (also in the article) that after-tax incomes declined from 2000 to 2002 the MOST for the top 1%? I suppose if someone wanted to, they could say that you were biased to include the period where income for the top 1% went UP the most, while omitting the period where income for the top 1% went DOWN the most. But of course, I would not accuse you of bias, because I assume the best. Oh, and you also removed the CBO data which shows that the tax liabilities went up for the top 1%, while tax liabilites for the bottom 80% went down. If you want to make a point about how tax cuts caused inequality among income groups, then that would be an important statistic to cite. It is much more relevant than citing a meaningless statistic like “the after-tax income for the top 1% rose by $146,000.” 75.30.225.147 ( talk) 08:44, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Brendel, I don’t know what to do with you. As you obviously know, there are always statistics which support one viewpoint or another. However, you seem determined to remove all statistics which show how tax cuts have lowered the tax burden of the bottom 80%, and instead choose to add statistics which show that the top 1% have gained more income. Is this really how Wikipedia works: You just remove statistics that you disagree with or feel are irrelevant, and replace them with statistics which support your own viewpoint? I am tired of you removing the same sections over and over again without justification or explanation. 75.30.225.147 ( talk) 18:31, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm totally open to fixing POV, OR, and referencing issues. Please point them out so that we can discuss them instead of deleting big sections of the article. johnpseudo 18:42, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Honestly, does anyone use this page for discussion about proposed changes any more? With the latest round of edits, I noticed a disturbing trend, where relevant information is being removed as “POV pushing" and "OR", when the sections removed are neither. Meanwhile, large sections are being "edited" by copying and pasting those same sections from previous versions, often introducing the same typos and grammatical errors which have been fixed over the course of weeks or months previously. This kind of slipshod editing is bad for the article, and should be avoided. If you are going to remove whole paragraphs of information, at least TRY to explain why those paragraphs are inaccurate. The Vidiot ( talk) 17:57, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Vidiot's edits included three aspects that I oppose. I started three sub-sections for discussion.-- Bkwillwm ( talk) 02:20, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Diff Vidiot cites a Tax Foundation blog post that claims that the Bush tax cut made the tax code more progressive. The blog post argues that the wealthy now pay a larger share of the US's tax burden. This is a redefinition of tax progressivity. A progressive tax is one where, as a person's income goes up, the greater the share of their income that they pay in tax. A tax is considered more progressive when higher income individuals pay at a higher rate, this is the standard definition for what tax progressivity is and the blog post is just spin. We can include that fact that the wealthy are paying a higher share of the total tax paid, but that is only because they are wealthy. Vidiot also added this cite from the CBPP, which does a pretty good job of refuting everything that the Tax Foundation argued, and what Vidiot tried to post. The CBPP article says the complete opposite of the text that references it.-- Bkwillwm ( talk) 02:20, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Diff Vidiot removed a quote and said that it was "hypothetical." Only one part of the quote was at all hypothetical, and it was a budget forecast, which is perfectly acceptable in a Wikipedia article. Vidiot then reverted it again and said that even the parts that weren't forecast related were "estimates." Considering all economic numbers are estimates, I think this argument is even less legitimate.-- Bkwillwm ( talk) 02:20, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Diff This addition supported by one citation of economic statistics (estimates, by the way) but includes many claims based off the statistics, including the POV statement that "[Bush] managed to keep the economy out of a recession." This section is POV and is original research.-- Bkwillwm ( talk) 02:20, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
“ | The most significant domestic policy initative of the past decade has been a massive government-engineered trasnfer of additional wealth from the lower and middle classes to the rich in the form of substantial reductions in federal income taxes... the total cost to the federal treassury of those cuts from 2001 through 2013 [is estimated] at $4.6 trillion... Many of the specific provisions... disproportinonally benefited wealthy taxpayers, including cuts in the top rate, reducations in taxes on dividends and capital gains, and a gradual elimination of the estate tax... As a result... the total federal tax burden in 2010 will decline by 25% for the richest 1% of taxpayers and by 21% for the next richest 4%, but only by 10% for taxpayers in the bottom 95%." | ” |
References
I have re-inserted the bit about Bush being the first president in a very long time to go an entire term without vetoing any legislation. I'm not sure if that's completely relevant, so it may be removed on those grounds -- but it is correct. I think the confusion has to do with the meaning of the word "term." Bush served two terms as president. He did veto legislation in his second term, but not in his first. Kier07 ( talk) 03:29, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
Despite leaving office with an ongoing recession, the economy performed strongly for the most part of Bush's Presidency. This included nearly six years of uninterrupted growth and the strongest economy of any developed country.
This is POV, the first source is in COI, asking the senior political advisor to write up an article describing the greatness of the President he got elected is absolute POV, find a credibicle economists to say that instead, though if memory serves the actual economists tore this article to shreads as being nothing but spin. The second link is dead. 161.150.2.58 ( talk) 14:40, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Hi JustGettingItRight, could clarify your justification for removing the image in the introduction? Thank you. -- Beerfinger ( talk) 20:21, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
Here is the compilation of my recent edits if anyone wants to review. My changes. I made three changes: 1. Reverted hidden vandalism on a link, 2. added a citation needed tag for one assertion that I think is right but a citation is still needed, and 3. removed a very large POV image that was in the intro.
Here is the image for review as a link Image removed from intro
This was a self created image. However, this image's use of the red color font as well as having a smiling picture of George W. Bush inserted in between the 2001 deficit and 2008 deficit, with the number 4.9T above his head, implying, possibly incorrectly, that George W. Bush was responsible for the deficit increase (as well as not having the axis going down to zero) is not what one would expect from an encyclopedia. Facts speak a lot louder than misleading graphs and the graph brings (what I feel are rightful) allegations of a systemic bias against George W. Bush. JustGettingItRight ( talk) 20:48, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
I would not oppose the creation of an NPOV graph showing the increase in the deficit during the Bush administration (with the axis starting at zero - we learned about this in 4th grade), but any graph with a smiling picture of Bush up top should not be included. JustGettingItRight ( talk) 20:50, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
I'm not accusing anybody of this, but this article should not be a battleground in support or in opposition to Bush's economic policies. Rather it should matter of factly state what his policies were and what the economic indicators were. It should not offer selective opinion, positive or negative, of the effect of Bush's economic policies. JustGettingItRight ( talk) 07:13, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
1. Re: Whether the revenues grew as tax rates fell, as predicted by the Laffer Curve: "However, income tax revenues in dollar terms did not regain their FY 2000 peak until 2006" -This speaks for itself.
In other words, as the tax cuts got larger with each successive year, it follows that the revenues DID grow until it surpassed the pre-tax cut levels by 2006. Ergo, those who thought the Laffer curve would mean more revenue were correct: Cutting taxes DID produce more revenue than before the taxes had been cut. (This can also be seen in the declining yearly deficits up until the crisis in 2008.)
2. There is NO doubt that the Bush tax cuts shifted more of the income tax burden onto higher earners. It's basic math. The bottom income tax rate was slashed by 33% from 15% to 10%. The next rate was slashed by a smaller amount, and so on with the highest bracket being slashed from 39.1% to 35%, a reduction of 11.7%. Since the lower brackets were cut far more drastically than the higher brackets, it follows that the income tax burden (the total percentage of tax revenue each bracket represents) shifted into the upper brackets.
I'd really like to see this article's language updated to reflect these logically necessary facts, since now these areas seem to carry a taint of readily disprovable rhetoric. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.168.129.57 ( talk) 03:17, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
"Nobel laureate Joseph Stiglitz has estimated the total cost of the Iraq War at closer to $3 trillion.[39]"
We have actual data on what these wars cost, and it's about $100B per year according to the CBO. Taking some claim of what they will supposedly cost several decades down the line is not only highly speculative, but completely at odds with a discussion of a historical date range. Does the Costs of the Great Society article (or Economic policies of LBJ) calculate the costs of a Medicare Bankruptcy in 2045? Would a discussion of the costs of the New Deal discuss the bankruptcy of Social Security in 2070? How would Stiglitz separate costs directly attributable from the wars in 2040 from the costs of soldiers who simply required the higher standard of care required by an elderly person in 2040 without a time machine? Obviously He can't. This is an unsupportable statement based on a blatent appeal to authority (for an unrelated body of work) that does nothing to advance the reader's understanding of the actual budget deficits from 2001-2008. 173.168.129.57 ( talk) 04:25, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
You know when a common person knowing breaks the law he or she is held accountable for their actions. President George W Bush was told over and over again that his policies where going to break the will of nation and great harm will come of it. It's now the summer of 2010 and we still have not seen the last of what President Bush's Policies did to our nation. I wish there was a way to hold him accoutable to the American People. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.124.224.52 ( talk) 16:11, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
This image carries the caption "Breakdown of debt incurred between 2001 and 2006" which must be incorrect because the sourced article from which it takes its data never gives figures for a "breakdown of debt." That article, "FROM SURPLUS TO DEFICIT: Legislation Enacted Over the Last Six Years Has Raised the Debt by $2.3 Trillion," does supply hypothetical numbers obtained from a CBO report but those numbers concern the effect of legislation enacted from 2001 to mid-2006 on the debt.
Taken literally, this graph is saying to me that the war in Iraq & Afghanistan contributed more than 3x as much to the debt as Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid put together.
Some may argue that only the caption should be changed but I think the graph should be deleted. The other ones accompanying this article are sufficient and they are current to 2008 while this graph's data stops in August of 2006 though the article is dated 12/10. A bigger question concerns whether the article's sponsor, the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, a think-tank with a well-known liberal bias, is a legitimate source for Wikipedia. They seem to me to be about as biased to the left as the Heritage Foundation is to the right. TL36 ( talk) 02:06, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
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