This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Someone started a Dwarf Planets article, too. I will merge it here. The encyclopedic article should be in the singular. Derek Balsam 19:21, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/5283956.stm In light of this, I call for a "stop work" on the subject of so-called Dwarf Planets and a revert of all Planet articles back to before this vote was taken. It is very clear that they waited, at least in my opinion, till only a majority of Pro-Dwarf Astronomers were left before they took their vote. 424 is not a majority. Read the BBC article and you will understand what I mean. Here is a quote from the article, its very enlightening [quote]Alan Stern agreed: "I was not allowed to vote because I was not in a room in Prague on Thursday 24th. Of 10,000 astronomers, 4% were in that room - you can't even claim consensus.[/quote] Opinion by Magnum Serpentine MagnumSerpentine 8-28-06
According to space.com, there could be up to 53 dwarf planets according to the new definition [1] and the asteroids that were mentioned in the article are also mentioned by New Scientist here: [2]. However, the phrase "The list of dwarf planets which are also plutons could also be vastly extended with round or near-round solar system bodies like Quaoar, Orcus, 2005 FY9, and others." needs a citation, and the term "near round" properly defined. AFAIK, Ceres is barely round enough to recieve planetary status. However, I recall reading in another article that any planet less than 500miles across would not be spherical enough to be a planet, hence the official word of only 12 planets. I can't find the article now but I'll keep looking. Eccentricned 14:23, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Could someone explain the context to the size? It's probably explained on other pages, but as stated on this page, it might strike the reader as an arbitrary cut-off (whereas the roundness criteria was at least based on objective physical properties). Pluto is very different in composition from the four planets that come before it... is the Mercury cutoff an approximate guess at where that transition might occur in other solar systems? Or is it simply a conservative definition that makes the smallest possible change to textbooks? -- Interiot 14:33, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
There is a mathematical yardstick that says the farther out you are and the slower you move -- the bigger you need to be as a planet to clear all the space junk from your orbital path. Oh let's not forget the bigger you are the bigger the orbital zone you are expected to clear. However that is just selected theoretical club for changing the definition of a planet.
I am sure the actual reasons for the change are many to include: actual naming credit (fame and the selling of names in the catalog - just like comets), changing definitions to help planet formation theories (i.e. dwarf planets be a different category of data we can mostly ignore), easier classification for purposes of life on other planets and space colonization (clear zone means vastly lower catastrophic collision rate).
Frankly it is clear that faster orbits and bigger planets have advantages during planetary accretion in clearing orbits closer to the stars -- but that is not a sign of different mechanics than "dwarf planets" nor is it the only definition of stable enough for life. The very reasons Pluto hasn't cleared its orbit means that collisions are rare in terms of life and colonization -- most everything in a wide orbital range is still moving more or less synchronously with Pluto for millions of years.
CalRis: I think that the statement that Charon is excluded from the group of dwarf planets is not correct. The definition of 'dwarf planet' rests on four conditions, the first three of which Charon clearly fulfills. The fourth one, i.e. "not being a satellite", is less clear. But as the barycentre of the Pluto/Charon-system is outside of the primary, I believe that Charon IS a dwarf-planet or at least is not yet assigned to any group (either dwarf-planet or small solar system object). Actually this barycentre-condition was included in the draft resolution. Its removal didn't exactly make things clearer for Charon, but Charon's status is definitely not clear, yet. I'm looking forward to hearing your opinion. CalRis.
I belive Charon is included as on of the inargural four dwarf planets. Most sources are reporting Charon as a dwarf planet, with it and Pluto being a binary planet. Should it be classified as a Plutino instead of a moon?
Since Neptune has failed to clear the neighborhood in it's orbit of Pluto, by the stated defintion it is also a dwarf planet. They need to refine the definition a bit more.
Being grammatical - "it's" = it is.
I think we should turn this article into a category. Discuss. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.42.208.182 ( talk • contribs) .
Please, a nicer table....-- TheFEARgod 17:33, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Erm, not quite sure what do do about it, but the current measurement for Ceres doesn't quite fit in a diameter catagory... Maybe list it as "at poles" and "around"?... - Tiak 05:49, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
What does "cleared the neighbourhood around its orbit" mean? -- Fang Aili talk 17:47, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
"This definition demotes Pluto from a planet to a dwarf planet because it has not cleared the neighborhood of its orbit (the Kuiper Belt)." Can someone clarify this sentence? In what sense is the word "clear" being used here? It would also be helpful to say what an "orbit neighborhood" is, at least until someone writes that article. Recury 20:47, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
The following language that has been inserted implies that Stern and Levinson endorse the use of the "neighborhood clearing" criterion for defining planets: "Astronomer Alan Stern, Levison, Steven Soter and others have argued for a distinction between dwarf planets and the other eight planets based on their inability to " clear the neighborhood around their orbits" [...] Stern and Levison found a gap of five orders of magnitude in Λ between the smallest terrestrial planets and the largest asteroids and KBOs." I don't know what Levinson's take on the matter is, but Stern has been very critical of the current 'definition of a planet' scheme. Soter may be using Stern's formula as a planet-defining scheme (and certain members of the IAU may be using Soter's criteria as the basis for IAU regulations) but that doesn't make Stern someone arguing "for a distinction between dwarf planets and the other eight". In fact Stern supported and supports a definition of planet based solely on hydrostatic equilibrium, similar to that of the original draft proposal to the IAU. -- RandomCritic 07:47, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
With all of the potential dwarf planets out there, the Kupier Belt is now a Dwarrowdelf, a dwelling-place of dwarves. The word is real, used by J. R. R. Tolkien
-- GwydionM 20:24, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I think the list on Mike Brown's website plus discussion of the asteriods listed as candidates in the earlier definition (Vesta, Pallas, and Hygiea) might be the best approach to the candidate section of this page. Right now it seems thrown together as people find wikipedia articles that list diameters that they think might fit. -- Aranae 20:27, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
The new definition for dwarf planets only addresses objects around our sun. If you use the generic star then any larger than Mercury extrasolar objects are immediately classified as dwarf planets but this was not addressed in the new definition. I think it should say the sun and not a star which matches the wording of the new definition. --Daniel Schibuk 20:31, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Please reword the first and fourth of these so that they do not appear to contradict each other. Georgia guy 20:36, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
What does the new classification mean by stating that an object must be "in orbit around a star but ... not itself a star," and must not be "a satellite"?
If it's an object in orbit around a star, it is a satellite of that star. Is it referring to man-made satellites? - 4.153.225.232 20:45, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
The phase "dwarf planet", coined for bodies like Pluto after the discovery of other Kuiper belt objects, is really rather misleading when one considers the many small, rocky bodies that orbit the Sun. "Dwarf planet" suggests a tiny body orbitting a large star.
Also, Ceres and Vesta have orbital characteristics much more akin to the eight "classical" planets than does Pluto: indeed they have lower eccentricities than Mars and very low inclination. Thus, it is misleading to classify a body like Ceres in the same group as Pluto and other Kuiper belt objects. (Interestingly Pallas and the small "Pallas family" have quite Kuiper-belt like orbits in terms of eccentricity and inclination, but most large asteroids do not).
"Mesoplanet" by comparison really is a much better fit for bodies like Pluto. Although smaller than many moons, it is much larger than most asteroids - indeed its moon Charon is larger than Ceres. And at least some Kuiper belt objects are still larger even if they are not nearly as large as Mercury or even the biggest moons of the gas giants. "Mesoplanet", as I emphasised above, indicates intermdiate size - between true "planets" and the thousands of tiny asteroids. It seems a much more proper term if bodies like Pluto cannot be called planets.
Do you agree?
Julien Peter Benney (luokehao)
There is another reason that, in my view, "dwarf planet" is a bad choice of name. Generally, in English (and, I would guess, in any language that has nouns and adjectives), if you attach the adjective B to the noun A, the result is still an example of A. So, for instance, a toy poodle is still a poodle. (This does not, of course, apply when they are merged into a single word - e.g. a greenhouse is not a house.) However, the new IAU definition says that a dwarf planet is not a planet. Maybe the IAU could end the controversy, which I suspect is not going to go away in the near future, by rescinding just a little bit and allowing a dwarf planet still to be a planet as well. (I know there are existing violations of this rule - a Bombay duck {Mumbai duck??} is not a duck, Scotch woodcock is not a woodcock - but it would surely be better to avoid introducing new ones.) Jon Rob 09:14, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes Dwarf Planet seems a poor choice of terms by the IAU because minimum planetary mass varies with orbital distance (and solar mass too). Thus we could potentially find distant dwarf planets in our own system bigger than the Earth. At sufficient distance around a massive star a Jupiter mass would be a dwarf planet. Perhaps the IAU will rethink the actual term used with this a recent change.
As far as the actual change, the most useful aspect of the new IAU definition is to clarify orbital domainance and to state that planetiod formation in that orbital zone is essentially over. This almost sounds like more of an orbital zone characteristic than a characteristic of the orbital body itself. I guess there is significance for finding life or colonizing in the awefully far future. But I am not entirely sure that non-dominant "dwarf planets" would always tbe subject to that frequent of collision. The deceptive thing about much longer period orbits with some junk still in the zone is that it takes forever for object to interact. Thus Pluto probably sufferes less frequent major events than the Earth. Stability is stability regardless of how clean the zone.
is not a satellite of a planet, dwarf planet, or other nonstellar body.
This doesn't seem to make sense. A dwarf planet can not be a dwarf planet?-- Jersey Devil 00:02, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Should we apply the term dwarf planet to extrasolar bodies? PSR B1257+12 D, if it falls in the upper part of its estimated size and mass range would fit into dwarf planets probably. 132.205.93.19 02:40, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
To what extent is it possible to identify extrasolar dwarf planets yet?
No doubt when "a sufficiency" of these bodies is discovered, the term used will be "Star X's dwarf planets"/ terrestial planets/ gas giants/ Kuiper belt objects and Oort cloud.
Someone proposed a merge from icedwarf. 132.205.93.19 03:36, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I think it's user:Wetman
But isn't an ice dwarf necessarily a dwarf planet, and thus a subcategory of dwarf planet, because they need be larger than comets, which would make them into dwarf planets anyhow? 132.205.45.148 22:37, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Consensus is do not merge. 132.205.45.148 18:53, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Dwarf planets are dwarf because they did not cleared the region (neighbourhood) they live in that means, that instead of:
it should be
-- Pedro 11:23, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to remove the flag as I think that all the substantive objections have been addressed. It seems to me that the other objections are matters of idiosyncratic interpretation and opinion, and that the article is being criticized not for original research, but for failing to be POV. RandomCritic 14:20, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
after the definition:
That's enough. I think the IAU does't write for children. They just said Pluto, and Ceres are dwarf planets, ditto: pluto is not a planet, Ceres is not a minor planet. -- Pedro 17:06, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Is it possible to get a new picture of Pluto, maybe an artists conception? The current one looks like a disco ball. -- Pahoran513 00:34, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Re: "Oppose" #2: Leaving aside the technical inability of current planet detection methods to detect ordinary terrestrial-sized planets, let alone "dwarf planets", the term "dwarf planet" has been defined by the IAU for the Solar system -- for extrasolar systems nothing has been defined at all. RandomCritic 16:47, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
The opposing arguments say that the table's length will eventually be a problem, and while that might be true, I think it's a preemptive strike against what's currently a non-problem. The table itself is not strong enough to stand alone as an article in its current form. Wikipedia is an organic, evolving beast, and common sense says right now that the table should be merged in here. Let's cross that bridge when we get there. C-squared 01:59, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I echo C-squared's thinking/ The article is currently not too long, and this information may not be enought to stand as its own article, except as a stub. In the meanwhile the information should remaine here .As we discover other exo-objects that fit witin the other article, it can be expanded, so I'm not opposed to a separate article for Solar system dwarf planets including those in other star systems but this information should be kept here and can be changed later as the other page fills up per new discoveries, and/or if this page becomese too large. Giovanni33 02:52, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Now I see the original table was changed from just table of dwarf planets to the "Table of planets and dwarf planets in the solar system", this is attempt to represent planets and dwarf planets as somehow almost equal, while there is clear distinction between those two objects. Homo Cosmosicus 13:14, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi, can we have an image of the three dwarf planets? Like the terrestrial planets one. I tried, using Image:Three proposed planets.jpg and Image:Plutoncharon.jpg, but failed miserably. Friggin' paint... I think this would improve the article's quality greatly - Jack (talk) 23:15, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
According to the fifth paragraph of this site < http://skytonight.com/news/home/3707031.html> , the term dwarf planet should be hyphenated (ie) dwarf-planet, not dwarf planet. What is the now official designation ? However, whatever it is, I would expect most people to look for this term unhyphenated. The Yeti 11:00, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
The IAU refers to the classifications without the hypen (and they are after all the guys who invented it) -- Nbound 11:04, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I can't seem to find any reference that states that this change is only being made to the English terms as the article claims. All German sources that I've checked seem to think that it applies to them as well. 131.181.251.66 04:40, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
The IAU resolution was issued in English. Translations in a great many languages were made immediately afterwards. The IAU did not say how 'dwarf planet' should be translated into any particular language. Michaelbusch 05:43, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Should we redirect Candidate planets here?
See the related vote at Talk:2006_redefinition_of_planet#mergefrom_Candidate_planet and related comments at Talk:Candidate_planets#Merge_Suggestions. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 02:32, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
To the "u" out of neighborhood. I don't know if thats the English spelling (as apposed to the American spelling) as near as I could tell it was a misspell. Feel free to change if I was wrong.
Many recent edits have converted fulfil (UK) to fulfill (USA) and vice versa. Not only is this a waste of time, it is also against wiki policy (somewhere). Come on guys, surely life is too short for this? Abtract 22:27, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
I removed km3 from the volume entry because only a ratio is displayed--unless someone has the actual volumes in km3 handy? AOB 22:19, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Looks like all dwarf planets have now been assigned with minor planet numbers. 1 Ceres, (136199) 2003 UB313 — and 134340 Pluto.-- JyriL talk 16:02, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
The "dethronement" of planet Pluto from its position, as the outermost planet in our Solar system, evoked a sensational storm, not only in the astronomical society, but in the whole scientific community around the world and beyond, pro and contra.
The reason this problem has aroused was the discovering the new trans-Plutonian planet as Xena and many other "icy balls" in outer Solar system in the so called Kuiper Belt. To stop this "inflation" in the planet population, the International Astronomical Union (IAU) decided, in its Prague meeting, to reduce the number of newly discovered planets, including Pluto, which has been discovered about seventy years ago (1930), As follows: Under the new rules, a planet must meet three criteria: it must orbit the Sun, it must be big enough for gravity to squash it into a round ball, and must have cleared other things out of the way in its orbit. The Solar system, therefore, will maintain its original size. The "classical" Planets are: Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune. These are the final eight members of the Solar system. Pluto has been excluded as a "dwarf" planet. This "new" astronomical concept of the Solar system, is based on the traditional model of the Solar system, upon the heliocentric conception, adopted, in the second half of the second millennium (XVI century) by Copernicus, Galilei and Kepler 500 years ago. This archaic point of view, leading to the theory of classical understanding the principal astronomical laws, built up the Solar system, as seen by the observations the orbit of the planets and satellites. My new updated proposition for understanding the composition of the Solar system, based upon modern astrophysics, is as follows: There are three groups of satellites around our Sun: The first one - the four giant gaseous "sub-stellar" satellites, namely: Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune. Each of those satellites, like the Sun, is composed mainly of low density hydrogen and has greater volume then any other planet. They have rings around them, planet-sized satellites and small debris circling around them. ! The second group is composed of so called “Real Planets”, which are made of solid dense material. Their volume is about several thousand Kilometer in diameter (The planet Earth and Pluto also belong in this group). The third group is composed of small homogenous debris in the Kuiper Belt and other rings, such as the Asteroid Belt. Comets also belong to this group. Michael Popper, Taverne, Switzerland [user:michael_popper]
All that just because people cant let go of the reclassification of 134340 Pluto. Its a ball of rock among many in the Kuiper Belt. -- Nbound 11:17, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
No, it means precisely that, science needs a consistent and non-arbitary point to define things, Pluto didnt make the cut... goodbye Pluto... -- Nbound 11:28, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I would have supported either the 12 planet or 8 planet plan btw, as long as the defining point was consistent -- Nbound 11:29, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
The main problem with the first draft (this is not my opinion btw) was that it was too open, it allowed what could possibly be hundreds of objects to be classified as planets, when only a tiny fraction of those were planets in any real sense (be that by perspective, or physical properties). It has been noted by many planetary scientists that there are really only 8 planets which dominate their area, while there are many more, which are planet-like but arent unique by any means, and often sharing orbits with other planetoids and asteroidal matter. This distinction is what the resolution was tryin to achieve... a defining point between the "planets" which dominate their surrounds, and the "planets" which while being planet-like do not. Its funny you say that because Europe is recognized (in conjunction with Asia) as Eurasia, they are really only separated by a historical line. See Also: Eurasian Plate -- Nbound 12:43, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I think most planetary scientists do agree with the definition (hence why it passed the vote). clearing its orbit has everything to do with the characteristics of a planet, as it suggests a different path of "planetary growth" (via accretion) than these other objects which have become under the influence of the larger (and thus more gravitationally dominant) planets. I wont continue due to michaelbusch's nonsoapbox comment above but ill leave you with one thing: Should our science be driven by popular opinion or scientific theory? I know which id prefer :) -- Nbound 23:12, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I quote: five orders of magnitude in Λ. What exactly is Λ? Why is it significant? Rwflammang 12:39, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
The "draft proposal" and "outcome of the vote" diagrams at the end of the article contain some light cyan text on a white background, which is virtually unreadable. I suggest that the diagrams use text colors that have more contrast from the background. - 68.102.127.239 15:23, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand, we are waiting for the IAU to declare them dwarf planets, or...?-- TheFEARgod ( listening) 20:40, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Hmm several people here want to have pluto with its original name and the two other dwarf planets with the numbers
We must decide whether:
Let's decide it here. (the decision made should have no exception - Pluto for example)-- TheFEARgod ( listening) 21:54, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
I think the most common usage for these dwarf planets will be simply by their names: Ceres, Pluto, Eris, and the others that are to follow them into this category. If the mythological figure on which they are based is obscure enough (such as perhaps Sedna and Quaoar if they are elevated to dwarf planet), they should be placed by their name only. If a disambiguation is required then number-name is perferable to a parenthetical statement following the name because it is the official name of the object anyway. -- Aranae 03:16, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
In favor of numbers included. While the number isn't the common name, it has just been established, so how can it be the common name? Also, I rarely hear anyone call Ceres "1 Ceres". That having been said, I am in support of including the numbers, as it is the official name. Being a part of WP:USRD, we've been debating what the names of the state routes should be. We've concluded that we should go by the official name (which is commonly used) but is not the most commonly used name. For example, most people refer to a state route in Pennsylvania as PA-39. But we chose to use the title Pennsylvania Route 39. I think the same should be used here. Instead of Ceres it should be 1 Ceres. Just like the other two dwarf planets, and others if the IAU should add to the list. -- myselfalso 16:21, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm in favor of names only because we have a new classification for a celestial body.-- TheFEARgod ( listening) 18:13, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
In favour of numbers - first off, the number serves to disambiguate the name, and according to the guidelines at Wikipedia:Disambiguation: "When there is another word (such as Cheque instead of Check) or more complete name that is equally clear (such as Titan rocket), that should be used." The parentheses option (i.e. putting "Ceres (dwarf planet)" is only second in the list. In addition, both dwarf planets and SSSB fall under the category of "minor planets", as evidenced by the IAU/MPC's handling of the number system. Furthermore, the existence of redirects and disambiguation pages means that you won't have to remember the numbers anyway. Chaos syndrome 11:44, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
I wondered how the different POV's which we all know from the newsmedia are sketched in this article. But as far as I can see the "unofficial" POV is not mentioned at all: only the recent majority-vote POV is mentioned. This despite the fact that the term was certainly not recently invented nor is it owned by any group. Thus for the time being, I put the NPOV marker. Harald88 11:31, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
The non-official POV is well mentioned in 2006 redefinition of planet where it belongs, this article is about the term dwarf planet, not the controversy of the recent redefinition -- Nbound
The numbers are roughly equal - several hundred on each side - and insufficient to be of more value than just that of a poll. Note that this doesn't liberate this article from the obligation to describe all notable opinions, especially within that same organisation. Thus one or two sentences about that, together with an appropriate link, are still lacking. Harald88 12:44, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
If no-one else has any major problems with NPOV on this article I will remove the tag in a while (to give people time to comment) -- Nbound 11:52, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
I see your point, but the orbital dominance model seems to be the model the new planetary definitions are built around, it should get the attention of this article, though perhaps a short paragraph at the end outlining that this is not the only model, but the base of the current definition? -- Nbound 12:13, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
I have made a mention of other theories in the orbital dominance section, any elaboration on this though should really be in the main article of clearing the neighbourhood. -- Nbound 12:34, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
I'll leave the NPOV tags up as it may coerce an ethusiastic editor to find a reference to verify whether or not it is the IAU endorsed model of definiting oribtal dominance -- Nbound
I really do not believe anything is ‘official’ as a whole in this still on-going debate redefining Pluto (and the justification the existance of this definition). To call this stuff ‘official’ is pure POV conjecture. Nonprof. Frinkus 08:30, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
In light of the 136199 Eris recently being renamed Eris (dwarf planet) and any renaming of Pluto being rejected, I have started Talk:Dwarf_planet/Naming. I hope to have editors from all of the "dwarf planet" pages use it to hammer out a coherent policy on this issue. -- EMS | Talk 02:20, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
(from the Naming sub-page) You can now enter {{dp|Name}} and it will automatically bring up the correct minor planet number without you needing to look it up, but it will display only as the name. E.g. {{dp|Ceres}} will give Ceres i.e. [[1 Ceres|Ceres]].
These can be used mid-article to provide links to the correct article titles, without using redirects and saving time writing minor planet numbers in.
Only covers the dwarf planets - {{dp|Pluto}} will link to [[134340 Pluto|Pluto]] at the moment - just in case it ever changes - but you wouldn't need to currently use the template for links to the Pluto article - it's just at Pluto
The template can of course be amended if the naming convention changes e.g. if the IAU issues a new dwarf planet catalogue system - meaning that no links would have to be changed - just the template. Richard B 00:56, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Some light on the mystery as to whether or not Ceres is still an asteroid: text from the IAU's website:
"Q: What is Ceres? A: Ceres is (or now we can say it was) the largest asteroid, about 1000 km across, orbiting in the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter. Ceres now qualifies as a dwarf planet because it is now known to be large enough (massive enough) to have self-gravity pulling itself into a nearly round shape."
"Q: Didn’t Ceres used to be called an asteroid or minor planet? A: Historically, Ceres was called a “planet” when it was first discovered (in 1801) orbiting in what is known as the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter. Because 19 th century astronomers could not resolve the size and shape of Ceres, and because numerous other bodies were discovered in the same region, Ceres lost its planetary status. For more than a century, Ceres has been referred to as an asteroid or minor planet."
-- Ckatz chat spy 05:03, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, it looks like no one mentioned here, that there is a new proposal for the naming of articles for the dwarf planets at Talk:Dwarf planet/Naming#A New Proposal. Nfitz 01:11, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Someone started a Dwarf Planets article, too. I will merge it here. The encyclopedic article should be in the singular. Derek Balsam 19:21, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/5283956.stm In light of this, I call for a "stop work" on the subject of so-called Dwarf Planets and a revert of all Planet articles back to before this vote was taken. It is very clear that they waited, at least in my opinion, till only a majority of Pro-Dwarf Astronomers were left before they took their vote. 424 is not a majority. Read the BBC article and you will understand what I mean. Here is a quote from the article, its very enlightening [quote]Alan Stern agreed: "I was not allowed to vote because I was not in a room in Prague on Thursday 24th. Of 10,000 astronomers, 4% were in that room - you can't even claim consensus.[/quote] Opinion by Magnum Serpentine MagnumSerpentine 8-28-06
According to space.com, there could be up to 53 dwarf planets according to the new definition [1] and the asteroids that were mentioned in the article are also mentioned by New Scientist here: [2]. However, the phrase "The list of dwarf planets which are also plutons could also be vastly extended with round or near-round solar system bodies like Quaoar, Orcus, 2005 FY9, and others." needs a citation, and the term "near round" properly defined. AFAIK, Ceres is barely round enough to recieve planetary status. However, I recall reading in another article that any planet less than 500miles across would not be spherical enough to be a planet, hence the official word of only 12 planets. I can't find the article now but I'll keep looking. Eccentricned 14:23, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Could someone explain the context to the size? It's probably explained on other pages, but as stated on this page, it might strike the reader as an arbitrary cut-off (whereas the roundness criteria was at least based on objective physical properties). Pluto is very different in composition from the four planets that come before it... is the Mercury cutoff an approximate guess at where that transition might occur in other solar systems? Or is it simply a conservative definition that makes the smallest possible change to textbooks? -- Interiot 14:33, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
There is a mathematical yardstick that says the farther out you are and the slower you move -- the bigger you need to be as a planet to clear all the space junk from your orbital path. Oh let's not forget the bigger you are the bigger the orbital zone you are expected to clear. However that is just selected theoretical club for changing the definition of a planet.
I am sure the actual reasons for the change are many to include: actual naming credit (fame and the selling of names in the catalog - just like comets), changing definitions to help planet formation theories (i.e. dwarf planets be a different category of data we can mostly ignore), easier classification for purposes of life on other planets and space colonization (clear zone means vastly lower catastrophic collision rate).
Frankly it is clear that faster orbits and bigger planets have advantages during planetary accretion in clearing orbits closer to the stars -- but that is not a sign of different mechanics than "dwarf planets" nor is it the only definition of stable enough for life. The very reasons Pluto hasn't cleared its orbit means that collisions are rare in terms of life and colonization -- most everything in a wide orbital range is still moving more or less synchronously with Pluto for millions of years.
CalRis: I think that the statement that Charon is excluded from the group of dwarf planets is not correct. The definition of 'dwarf planet' rests on four conditions, the first three of which Charon clearly fulfills. The fourth one, i.e. "not being a satellite", is less clear. But as the barycentre of the Pluto/Charon-system is outside of the primary, I believe that Charon IS a dwarf-planet or at least is not yet assigned to any group (either dwarf-planet or small solar system object). Actually this barycentre-condition was included in the draft resolution. Its removal didn't exactly make things clearer for Charon, but Charon's status is definitely not clear, yet. I'm looking forward to hearing your opinion. CalRis.
I belive Charon is included as on of the inargural four dwarf planets. Most sources are reporting Charon as a dwarf planet, with it and Pluto being a binary planet. Should it be classified as a Plutino instead of a moon?
Since Neptune has failed to clear the neighborhood in it's orbit of Pluto, by the stated defintion it is also a dwarf planet. They need to refine the definition a bit more.
Being grammatical - "it's" = it is.
I think we should turn this article into a category. Discuss. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.42.208.182 ( talk • contribs) .
Please, a nicer table....-- TheFEARgod 17:33, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Erm, not quite sure what do do about it, but the current measurement for Ceres doesn't quite fit in a diameter catagory... Maybe list it as "at poles" and "around"?... - Tiak 05:49, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
What does "cleared the neighbourhood around its orbit" mean? -- Fang Aili talk 17:47, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
"This definition demotes Pluto from a planet to a dwarf planet because it has not cleared the neighborhood of its orbit (the Kuiper Belt)." Can someone clarify this sentence? In what sense is the word "clear" being used here? It would also be helpful to say what an "orbit neighborhood" is, at least until someone writes that article. Recury 20:47, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
The following language that has been inserted implies that Stern and Levinson endorse the use of the "neighborhood clearing" criterion for defining planets: "Astronomer Alan Stern, Levison, Steven Soter and others have argued for a distinction between dwarf planets and the other eight planets based on their inability to " clear the neighborhood around their orbits" [...] Stern and Levison found a gap of five orders of magnitude in Λ between the smallest terrestrial planets and the largest asteroids and KBOs." I don't know what Levinson's take on the matter is, but Stern has been very critical of the current 'definition of a planet' scheme. Soter may be using Stern's formula as a planet-defining scheme (and certain members of the IAU may be using Soter's criteria as the basis for IAU regulations) but that doesn't make Stern someone arguing "for a distinction between dwarf planets and the other eight". In fact Stern supported and supports a definition of planet based solely on hydrostatic equilibrium, similar to that of the original draft proposal to the IAU. -- RandomCritic 07:47, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
With all of the potential dwarf planets out there, the Kupier Belt is now a Dwarrowdelf, a dwelling-place of dwarves. The word is real, used by J. R. R. Tolkien
-- GwydionM 20:24, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I think the list on Mike Brown's website plus discussion of the asteriods listed as candidates in the earlier definition (Vesta, Pallas, and Hygiea) might be the best approach to the candidate section of this page. Right now it seems thrown together as people find wikipedia articles that list diameters that they think might fit. -- Aranae 20:27, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
The new definition for dwarf planets only addresses objects around our sun. If you use the generic star then any larger than Mercury extrasolar objects are immediately classified as dwarf planets but this was not addressed in the new definition. I think it should say the sun and not a star which matches the wording of the new definition. --Daniel Schibuk 20:31, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Please reword the first and fourth of these so that they do not appear to contradict each other. Georgia guy 20:36, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
What does the new classification mean by stating that an object must be "in orbit around a star but ... not itself a star," and must not be "a satellite"?
If it's an object in orbit around a star, it is a satellite of that star. Is it referring to man-made satellites? - 4.153.225.232 20:45, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
The phase "dwarf planet", coined for bodies like Pluto after the discovery of other Kuiper belt objects, is really rather misleading when one considers the many small, rocky bodies that orbit the Sun. "Dwarf planet" suggests a tiny body orbitting a large star.
Also, Ceres and Vesta have orbital characteristics much more akin to the eight "classical" planets than does Pluto: indeed they have lower eccentricities than Mars and very low inclination. Thus, it is misleading to classify a body like Ceres in the same group as Pluto and other Kuiper belt objects. (Interestingly Pallas and the small "Pallas family" have quite Kuiper-belt like orbits in terms of eccentricity and inclination, but most large asteroids do not).
"Mesoplanet" by comparison really is a much better fit for bodies like Pluto. Although smaller than many moons, it is much larger than most asteroids - indeed its moon Charon is larger than Ceres. And at least some Kuiper belt objects are still larger even if they are not nearly as large as Mercury or even the biggest moons of the gas giants. "Mesoplanet", as I emphasised above, indicates intermdiate size - between true "planets" and the thousands of tiny asteroids. It seems a much more proper term if bodies like Pluto cannot be called planets.
Do you agree?
Julien Peter Benney (luokehao)
There is another reason that, in my view, "dwarf planet" is a bad choice of name. Generally, in English (and, I would guess, in any language that has nouns and adjectives), if you attach the adjective B to the noun A, the result is still an example of A. So, for instance, a toy poodle is still a poodle. (This does not, of course, apply when they are merged into a single word - e.g. a greenhouse is not a house.) However, the new IAU definition says that a dwarf planet is not a planet. Maybe the IAU could end the controversy, which I suspect is not going to go away in the near future, by rescinding just a little bit and allowing a dwarf planet still to be a planet as well. (I know there are existing violations of this rule - a Bombay duck {Mumbai duck??} is not a duck, Scotch woodcock is not a woodcock - but it would surely be better to avoid introducing new ones.) Jon Rob 09:14, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes Dwarf Planet seems a poor choice of terms by the IAU because minimum planetary mass varies with orbital distance (and solar mass too). Thus we could potentially find distant dwarf planets in our own system bigger than the Earth. At sufficient distance around a massive star a Jupiter mass would be a dwarf planet. Perhaps the IAU will rethink the actual term used with this a recent change.
As far as the actual change, the most useful aspect of the new IAU definition is to clarify orbital domainance and to state that planetiod formation in that orbital zone is essentially over. This almost sounds like more of an orbital zone characteristic than a characteristic of the orbital body itself. I guess there is significance for finding life or colonizing in the awefully far future. But I am not entirely sure that non-dominant "dwarf planets" would always tbe subject to that frequent of collision. The deceptive thing about much longer period orbits with some junk still in the zone is that it takes forever for object to interact. Thus Pluto probably sufferes less frequent major events than the Earth. Stability is stability regardless of how clean the zone.
is not a satellite of a planet, dwarf planet, or other nonstellar body.
This doesn't seem to make sense. A dwarf planet can not be a dwarf planet?-- Jersey Devil 00:02, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Should we apply the term dwarf planet to extrasolar bodies? PSR B1257+12 D, if it falls in the upper part of its estimated size and mass range would fit into dwarf planets probably. 132.205.93.19 02:40, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
To what extent is it possible to identify extrasolar dwarf planets yet?
No doubt when "a sufficiency" of these bodies is discovered, the term used will be "Star X's dwarf planets"/ terrestial planets/ gas giants/ Kuiper belt objects and Oort cloud.
Someone proposed a merge from icedwarf. 132.205.93.19 03:36, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I think it's user:Wetman
But isn't an ice dwarf necessarily a dwarf planet, and thus a subcategory of dwarf planet, because they need be larger than comets, which would make them into dwarf planets anyhow? 132.205.45.148 22:37, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Consensus is do not merge. 132.205.45.148 18:53, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Dwarf planets are dwarf because they did not cleared the region (neighbourhood) they live in that means, that instead of:
it should be
-- Pedro 11:23, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to remove the flag as I think that all the substantive objections have been addressed. It seems to me that the other objections are matters of idiosyncratic interpretation and opinion, and that the article is being criticized not for original research, but for failing to be POV. RandomCritic 14:20, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
after the definition:
That's enough. I think the IAU does't write for children. They just said Pluto, and Ceres are dwarf planets, ditto: pluto is not a planet, Ceres is not a minor planet. -- Pedro 17:06, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Is it possible to get a new picture of Pluto, maybe an artists conception? The current one looks like a disco ball. -- Pahoran513 00:34, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Re: "Oppose" #2: Leaving aside the technical inability of current planet detection methods to detect ordinary terrestrial-sized planets, let alone "dwarf planets", the term "dwarf planet" has been defined by the IAU for the Solar system -- for extrasolar systems nothing has been defined at all. RandomCritic 16:47, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
The opposing arguments say that the table's length will eventually be a problem, and while that might be true, I think it's a preemptive strike against what's currently a non-problem. The table itself is not strong enough to stand alone as an article in its current form. Wikipedia is an organic, evolving beast, and common sense says right now that the table should be merged in here. Let's cross that bridge when we get there. C-squared 01:59, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I echo C-squared's thinking/ The article is currently not too long, and this information may not be enought to stand as its own article, except as a stub. In the meanwhile the information should remaine here .As we discover other exo-objects that fit witin the other article, it can be expanded, so I'm not opposed to a separate article for Solar system dwarf planets including those in other star systems but this information should be kept here and can be changed later as the other page fills up per new discoveries, and/or if this page becomese too large. Giovanni33 02:52, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Now I see the original table was changed from just table of dwarf planets to the "Table of planets and dwarf planets in the solar system", this is attempt to represent planets and dwarf planets as somehow almost equal, while there is clear distinction between those two objects. Homo Cosmosicus 13:14, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi, can we have an image of the three dwarf planets? Like the terrestrial planets one. I tried, using Image:Three proposed planets.jpg and Image:Plutoncharon.jpg, but failed miserably. Friggin' paint... I think this would improve the article's quality greatly - Jack (talk) 23:15, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
According to the fifth paragraph of this site < http://skytonight.com/news/home/3707031.html> , the term dwarf planet should be hyphenated (ie) dwarf-planet, not dwarf planet. What is the now official designation ? However, whatever it is, I would expect most people to look for this term unhyphenated. The Yeti 11:00, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
The IAU refers to the classifications without the hypen (and they are after all the guys who invented it) -- Nbound 11:04, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I can't seem to find any reference that states that this change is only being made to the English terms as the article claims. All German sources that I've checked seem to think that it applies to them as well. 131.181.251.66 04:40, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
The IAU resolution was issued in English. Translations in a great many languages were made immediately afterwards. The IAU did not say how 'dwarf planet' should be translated into any particular language. Michaelbusch 05:43, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Should we redirect Candidate planets here?
See the related vote at Talk:2006_redefinition_of_planet#mergefrom_Candidate_planet and related comments at Talk:Candidate_planets#Merge_Suggestions. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 02:32, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
To the "u" out of neighborhood. I don't know if thats the English spelling (as apposed to the American spelling) as near as I could tell it was a misspell. Feel free to change if I was wrong.
Many recent edits have converted fulfil (UK) to fulfill (USA) and vice versa. Not only is this a waste of time, it is also against wiki policy (somewhere). Come on guys, surely life is too short for this? Abtract 22:27, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
I removed km3 from the volume entry because only a ratio is displayed--unless someone has the actual volumes in km3 handy? AOB 22:19, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Looks like all dwarf planets have now been assigned with minor planet numbers. 1 Ceres, (136199) 2003 UB313 — and 134340 Pluto.-- JyriL talk 16:02, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
The "dethronement" of planet Pluto from its position, as the outermost planet in our Solar system, evoked a sensational storm, not only in the astronomical society, but in the whole scientific community around the world and beyond, pro and contra.
The reason this problem has aroused was the discovering the new trans-Plutonian planet as Xena and many other "icy balls" in outer Solar system in the so called Kuiper Belt. To stop this "inflation" in the planet population, the International Astronomical Union (IAU) decided, in its Prague meeting, to reduce the number of newly discovered planets, including Pluto, which has been discovered about seventy years ago (1930), As follows: Under the new rules, a planet must meet three criteria: it must orbit the Sun, it must be big enough for gravity to squash it into a round ball, and must have cleared other things out of the way in its orbit. The Solar system, therefore, will maintain its original size. The "classical" Planets are: Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune. These are the final eight members of the Solar system. Pluto has been excluded as a "dwarf" planet. This "new" astronomical concept of the Solar system, is based on the traditional model of the Solar system, upon the heliocentric conception, adopted, in the second half of the second millennium (XVI century) by Copernicus, Galilei and Kepler 500 years ago. This archaic point of view, leading to the theory of classical understanding the principal astronomical laws, built up the Solar system, as seen by the observations the orbit of the planets and satellites. My new updated proposition for understanding the composition of the Solar system, based upon modern astrophysics, is as follows: There are three groups of satellites around our Sun: The first one - the four giant gaseous "sub-stellar" satellites, namely: Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune. Each of those satellites, like the Sun, is composed mainly of low density hydrogen and has greater volume then any other planet. They have rings around them, planet-sized satellites and small debris circling around them. ! The second group is composed of so called “Real Planets”, which are made of solid dense material. Their volume is about several thousand Kilometer in diameter (The planet Earth and Pluto also belong in this group). The third group is composed of small homogenous debris in the Kuiper Belt and other rings, such as the Asteroid Belt. Comets also belong to this group. Michael Popper, Taverne, Switzerland [user:michael_popper]
All that just because people cant let go of the reclassification of 134340 Pluto. Its a ball of rock among many in the Kuiper Belt. -- Nbound 11:17, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
No, it means precisely that, science needs a consistent and non-arbitary point to define things, Pluto didnt make the cut... goodbye Pluto... -- Nbound 11:28, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I would have supported either the 12 planet or 8 planet plan btw, as long as the defining point was consistent -- Nbound 11:29, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
The main problem with the first draft (this is not my opinion btw) was that it was too open, it allowed what could possibly be hundreds of objects to be classified as planets, when only a tiny fraction of those were planets in any real sense (be that by perspective, or physical properties). It has been noted by many planetary scientists that there are really only 8 planets which dominate their area, while there are many more, which are planet-like but arent unique by any means, and often sharing orbits with other planetoids and asteroidal matter. This distinction is what the resolution was tryin to achieve... a defining point between the "planets" which dominate their surrounds, and the "planets" which while being planet-like do not. Its funny you say that because Europe is recognized (in conjunction with Asia) as Eurasia, they are really only separated by a historical line. See Also: Eurasian Plate -- Nbound 12:43, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I think most planetary scientists do agree with the definition (hence why it passed the vote). clearing its orbit has everything to do with the characteristics of a planet, as it suggests a different path of "planetary growth" (via accretion) than these other objects which have become under the influence of the larger (and thus more gravitationally dominant) planets. I wont continue due to michaelbusch's nonsoapbox comment above but ill leave you with one thing: Should our science be driven by popular opinion or scientific theory? I know which id prefer :) -- Nbound 23:12, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I quote: five orders of magnitude in Λ. What exactly is Λ? Why is it significant? Rwflammang 12:39, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
The "draft proposal" and "outcome of the vote" diagrams at the end of the article contain some light cyan text on a white background, which is virtually unreadable. I suggest that the diagrams use text colors that have more contrast from the background. - 68.102.127.239 15:23, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand, we are waiting for the IAU to declare them dwarf planets, or...?-- TheFEARgod ( listening) 20:40, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Hmm several people here want to have pluto with its original name and the two other dwarf planets with the numbers
We must decide whether:
Let's decide it here. (the decision made should have no exception - Pluto for example)-- TheFEARgod ( listening) 21:54, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
I think the most common usage for these dwarf planets will be simply by their names: Ceres, Pluto, Eris, and the others that are to follow them into this category. If the mythological figure on which they are based is obscure enough (such as perhaps Sedna and Quaoar if they are elevated to dwarf planet), they should be placed by their name only. If a disambiguation is required then number-name is perferable to a parenthetical statement following the name because it is the official name of the object anyway. -- Aranae 03:16, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
In favor of numbers included. While the number isn't the common name, it has just been established, so how can it be the common name? Also, I rarely hear anyone call Ceres "1 Ceres". That having been said, I am in support of including the numbers, as it is the official name. Being a part of WP:USRD, we've been debating what the names of the state routes should be. We've concluded that we should go by the official name (which is commonly used) but is not the most commonly used name. For example, most people refer to a state route in Pennsylvania as PA-39. But we chose to use the title Pennsylvania Route 39. I think the same should be used here. Instead of Ceres it should be 1 Ceres. Just like the other two dwarf planets, and others if the IAU should add to the list. -- myselfalso 16:21, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm in favor of names only because we have a new classification for a celestial body.-- TheFEARgod ( listening) 18:13, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
In favour of numbers - first off, the number serves to disambiguate the name, and according to the guidelines at Wikipedia:Disambiguation: "When there is another word (such as Cheque instead of Check) or more complete name that is equally clear (such as Titan rocket), that should be used." The parentheses option (i.e. putting "Ceres (dwarf planet)" is only second in the list. In addition, both dwarf planets and SSSB fall under the category of "minor planets", as evidenced by the IAU/MPC's handling of the number system. Furthermore, the existence of redirects and disambiguation pages means that you won't have to remember the numbers anyway. Chaos syndrome 11:44, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
I wondered how the different POV's which we all know from the newsmedia are sketched in this article. But as far as I can see the "unofficial" POV is not mentioned at all: only the recent majority-vote POV is mentioned. This despite the fact that the term was certainly not recently invented nor is it owned by any group. Thus for the time being, I put the NPOV marker. Harald88 11:31, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
The non-official POV is well mentioned in 2006 redefinition of planet where it belongs, this article is about the term dwarf planet, not the controversy of the recent redefinition -- Nbound
The numbers are roughly equal - several hundred on each side - and insufficient to be of more value than just that of a poll. Note that this doesn't liberate this article from the obligation to describe all notable opinions, especially within that same organisation. Thus one or two sentences about that, together with an appropriate link, are still lacking. Harald88 12:44, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
If no-one else has any major problems with NPOV on this article I will remove the tag in a while (to give people time to comment) -- Nbound 11:52, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
I see your point, but the orbital dominance model seems to be the model the new planetary definitions are built around, it should get the attention of this article, though perhaps a short paragraph at the end outlining that this is not the only model, but the base of the current definition? -- Nbound 12:13, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
I have made a mention of other theories in the orbital dominance section, any elaboration on this though should really be in the main article of clearing the neighbourhood. -- Nbound 12:34, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
I'll leave the NPOV tags up as it may coerce an ethusiastic editor to find a reference to verify whether or not it is the IAU endorsed model of definiting oribtal dominance -- Nbound
I really do not believe anything is ‘official’ as a whole in this still on-going debate redefining Pluto (and the justification the existance of this definition). To call this stuff ‘official’ is pure POV conjecture. Nonprof. Frinkus 08:30, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
In light of the 136199 Eris recently being renamed Eris (dwarf planet) and any renaming of Pluto being rejected, I have started Talk:Dwarf_planet/Naming. I hope to have editors from all of the "dwarf planet" pages use it to hammer out a coherent policy on this issue. -- EMS | Talk 02:20, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
(from the Naming sub-page) You can now enter {{dp|Name}} and it will automatically bring up the correct minor planet number without you needing to look it up, but it will display only as the name. E.g. {{dp|Ceres}} will give Ceres i.e. [[1 Ceres|Ceres]].
These can be used mid-article to provide links to the correct article titles, without using redirects and saving time writing minor planet numbers in.
Only covers the dwarf planets - {{dp|Pluto}} will link to [[134340 Pluto|Pluto]] at the moment - just in case it ever changes - but you wouldn't need to currently use the template for links to the Pluto article - it's just at Pluto
The template can of course be amended if the naming convention changes e.g. if the IAU issues a new dwarf planet catalogue system - meaning that no links would have to be changed - just the template. Richard B 00:56, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Some light on the mystery as to whether or not Ceres is still an asteroid: text from the IAU's website:
"Q: What is Ceres? A: Ceres is (or now we can say it was) the largest asteroid, about 1000 km across, orbiting in the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter. Ceres now qualifies as a dwarf planet because it is now known to be large enough (massive enough) to have self-gravity pulling itself into a nearly round shape."
"Q: Didn’t Ceres used to be called an asteroid or minor planet? A: Historically, Ceres was called a “planet” when it was first discovered (in 1801) orbiting in what is known as the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter. Because 19 th century astronomers could not resolve the size and shape of Ceres, and because numerous other bodies were discovered in the same region, Ceres lost its planetary status. For more than a century, Ceres has been referred to as an asteroid or minor planet."
-- Ckatz chat spy 05:03, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, it looks like no one mentioned here, that there is a new proposal for the naming of articles for the dwarf planets at Talk:Dwarf planet/Naming#A New Proposal. Nfitz 01:11, 2 October 2006 (UTC)