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Deleting the information about the Earls of Selkirk has left a discontinuity. Mintguy (T) 22:51, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
Oh, I'm sorry...Can you recover it? I think the Earl of Selkirk stuff should mostly be in its own article, regardless. john 23:29, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
Is this the same family that Alexander Hamilton is descended from? Forrest McDonald's 1979 Alexander Hamilton: A Biography mentions that
Ron Chernow's 2004 Alexander Hamilton similarly states
Publius 21:40, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Gentlemen, if the 1st Duke of Hamilton had been created Earl of March instead of Earl of Arran, Lanark, and Cambridge, would he and 2nd Duke of Hamilton have done anything differently during the Civil War (Did the Scottish Earldom of March still have special responsibilities or privileges associated with it at that time?) -- Anglius 23:33, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
We seem to have been promoting name forms which are incorrect. From what I can gather in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, Lord Selkirk changed his surname to Hamilton when he married the Duchess. He was then created duke in his own right for his lifetime after the Restoration. From 1656 onwards, he used the surname Hamilton. His son only ever used the surname Hamilton. The name "Douglas-Hamilton" was not devised until the nineteenth century. john k ( talk) 04:27, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
This line could bear explaining. Why is Abernethy "successor" to Fife? — Tamfang ( talk) 05:29, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
Is marquises really the standard plural of marquis in Scotland? It looks funny to one who knows the French — masculine un marquis, deux marquis, feminine une marquise, deux marquises. What's the feminine in Scotland? — Tamfang ( talk) 07:26, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
How are they pronounced? — Tamfang ( talk) 16:46, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
We need some consistency over whether the subsiduary titles are 'Marquis of...' or 'Marquess of...'. Debtrett's favours the latter. Shipsview ( talk) 14:58, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
The following seems to be the generally accepted style, and the one used by the family:
The Duchess of Hamilton & Brandon (b 1976), wife of Alexander Douglas Douglas-Hamilton, 16th Duke of Hamilton (b 31 Mar 1978), gave birth to a son and heir Douglas Charles Douglas-Hamilton, styled Marquess of Douglas & Clydesdale, born 9 July, 2012.
Shipsview ( talk) 07:59, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
Why are the titles Lord Hamilton (1445) and Marquis of Hamilton (1599) not in the list at the top of the page? — Tamfang ( talk) 18:13, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
I have asked User:Brendandh to provide a source for the claim that the Dukes of Hamilton are still Earls of Cambridge (see User talk:Proteus, User talk:Brendandh and User:Proteus/Duke of Hamilton for discussions). In my view, the source provided does not say what Brendandh says it does (and rather states that the Dukes hold an Earldom of Arran and Cambridge in the Peerage of Scotland created in 1643 along with the Dukedom, and no longer an English Earldom of Cambridge). I have therefore marked as disputed the relevant sections. I would be grateful if other editors could study the sources, as it seems clear that Brendandh and I are not going to agree. Proteus (Talk) 11:34, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
When exactly did the change happen? Looking at the London Gazette, the future 10th Duke is called "the Right Honourable Alexander Hamilton (commonly called Marquis of Douglas and Clydesdale)" in 1806, his younger brother is called "the Right Honourable Archibald Hamilton, commonly called Lord Archibald Hamilton" the next year, and the younger son of the 11th Duke (later 7th Earl of Selkirk) is called "Lord Charles George Archibald Hamilton" in 1872. The earliest reference I can find to anyone with the surname Douglas-Hamilton is in 1874, with a reference to "Charles Henry Douglas- Hamilton, late of Upper Mount, Shanklin, Isle of Wight, in the county of Southampton, Esquire, Commander in the Royal Nary, deceased, who died on or on or about the 30th day of November, 1873" (i.e. the father of the 13th Duke). This accords with Cracroft's Peerage, which asserts that the surname was adopted by Augustus Barrington Price Anne Powell Hamilton (father of the Commander Douglas-Hamilton above and grandfather of the 13th Duke), at some unspecified point before he died in 1849 (if we can rely on the fact that he is "Hamilton later Douglas-Hamilton" and yet his children are simply "Douglas-Hamilton", then at some point before the birth of his first son in 1807). Is this correct? I can see no evidence it was ever used by the 12th Duke or his brother (and, indeed, as the 12th Duke was a courtesy peer from birth, he never would have used a surname in any event), and it seems it may have been an innovation purely of the 13th Duke's line of the family. Proteus (Talk) 22:54, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
OFFS, "all the sources"? Why don't you chaps just go and have a trot to Lennoxlove and have a look at the hard copy, eh? Brendandh ( talk) 23:57, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
I don't have a horse, and if I did, I wouldn't be in trotting distance. Tinynanorobots ( talk) 16:14, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
This appears to partly a conflict between authorities: Complete Peerage agrees with the research above (the tenth and eleventh dukes were Hamilton, the 12th Douglas-Hamilton) but ODNB calls all three of them Douglas-Hamilton
However, ODNB calls the fourth Duke James Hamilton and explains "Called after his maternal grandfather, James, like his twelve brothers and sisters, took his mother's surname, for the second duke of Hamilton's entail stipulated that her husband and children were to ‘take on, use and weir the name and armes of the house of Hamilton’" (quoting from the Lennoxlove archives; you may want to doublecheck them, Brendandh). So was the change late in the seventeenth century, in the eighteenth, or in the nineteenth? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:47, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
if the last name is douglas-hamilton, shouldn't the arms have douglas in the first quarter? Tinynanorobots ( talk) 22:27, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
how is it the the Duke of Hamilton has a double name and is Chief of Hamilton? Tinynanorobots ( talk) 03:16, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
The death certificate of the 15th Duke gives his name as Hamilton, not D-H, and the 15th Duke always called himself Angus Hamilton - he never used D-H. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sebmelmoth ( talk • contribs) 10:34, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
This is not right. In the 1980s when Michael Ancram became a Government Minister, the Lord Lyon wrote to him to say his name was either Michael Ker or the Earl of Ancram but not a mixture. Likewise Tam Galbraith, the father of the current Lord Strathclyde, never called himself Tam Strathclyde. This muddle of geography and surname is a modern affectation. Sebmelmoth ( talk) 11:44, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
As the Earldom of Selkirk has been disclaimed by James D-H presumably all its subsidiary titles are also in abeyance - including Lord Daer? After all, it is at his discretion that his son may use the title: he could keep it for himself and not offer it as a courtesy title for one of his sons. That would make all his sons "The Hon." as sons of a life baron - rather than those titles which go with being the sons of an earl? Sebmelmoth ( talk) 11:28, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
I think this reports usage not fact. All the titles are owned by the primary holder and as a courtesy he enables their use by family. It is not a part of the creation of a title that juniors get gravy too. Sebmelmoth ( talk) 06:18, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
In 2013, Lord Lucas of Crudwell (England) and of Dingwall (Scotland) introduced his Equality (Titles) Bill in the House of Lords. The provisions of the bill would allow for the eldest born in the family to inherit the family title. The initial statute provided that the bill would be permissive, which is to say, that, application could be made to the Lord Chancellor to change the inheritance of a title.
The initial draft bill was followed swiftly by some amendments made by the Earl of Clancarty, one of which was to make it mandatory for the title to go to the eldest child. No doubt both peers were inspired by the recent Succession to the Crown Act 2013 which enabled the eldest child of the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge, whether male or female, to become monarch.
There is then the further question of the myriad of hereditary offices of state which come with some chiefly titles. For example The Duke of Hamilton is Hereditary Keeper of the Palace of Holyroodhouse. There are others such as the The Earl of Errol, chief of the Hays, who is Lord High Constable of Scotland; The Earl of Lauderdale, chief of the Maitlands, is hereditary bearer of the National Flag of Scotland. There are others that would be affected, or become separated from their traditional families, without careful thought and consideration.
The implications for Scottish titles and for clan chiefs can best be followed here: [ [3]] Shipsview ( talk) 20:49, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
We have a problem with this editor, whose contributions on this page, and in other articles, seem to be almost always reverted. Is the an Admin who can look at this? Shipsview ( talk) 09:27, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
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The following text is moved here from my User page on behalf of user:Reid of Clewis. Shhhnotsoloud ( talk) 07:36, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
In your article on the Duke of Hamilton you claim that he is head of both the house of Hamilton and of Douglas. This cannot be as a person can only be the head of one family. The head of the Douglas family is claimed by both the Marquess of Queensberry and the Earl of Morton. All other Douglas claimants, the Duke of Hamilton, the Duke of Queensberry, the Earl of Home and the Earl of Wemyss are heads of other families. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Reid of Clewis ( talk • contribs) 20:12, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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Deleting the information about the Earls of Selkirk has left a discontinuity. Mintguy (T) 22:51, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
Oh, I'm sorry...Can you recover it? I think the Earl of Selkirk stuff should mostly be in its own article, regardless. john 23:29, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
Is this the same family that Alexander Hamilton is descended from? Forrest McDonald's 1979 Alexander Hamilton: A Biography mentions that
Ron Chernow's 2004 Alexander Hamilton similarly states
Publius 21:40, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Gentlemen, if the 1st Duke of Hamilton had been created Earl of March instead of Earl of Arran, Lanark, and Cambridge, would he and 2nd Duke of Hamilton have done anything differently during the Civil War (Did the Scottish Earldom of March still have special responsibilities or privileges associated with it at that time?) -- Anglius 23:33, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
We seem to have been promoting name forms which are incorrect. From what I can gather in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, Lord Selkirk changed his surname to Hamilton when he married the Duchess. He was then created duke in his own right for his lifetime after the Restoration. From 1656 onwards, he used the surname Hamilton. His son only ever used the surname Hamilton. The name "Douglas-Hamilton" was not devised until the nineteenth century. john k ( talk) 04:27, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
This line could bear explaining. Why is Abernethy "successor" to Fife? — Tamfang ( talk) 05:29, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
Is marquises really the standard plural of marquis in Scotland? It looks funny to one who knows the French — masculine un marquis, deux marquis, feminine une marquise, deux marquises. What's the feminine in Scotland? — Tamfang ( talk) 07:26, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
How are they pronounced? — Tamfang ( talk) 16:46, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
We need some consistency over whether the subsiduary titles are 'Marquis of...' or 'Marquess of...'. Debtrett's favours the latter. Shipsview ( talk) 14:58, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
The following seems to be the generally accepted style, and the one used by the family:
The Duchess of Hamilton & Brandon (b 1976), wife of Alexander Douglas Douglas-Hamilton, 16th Duke of Hamilton (b 31 Mar 1978), gave birth to a son and heir Douglas Charles Douglas-Hamilton, styled Marquess of Douglas & Clydesdale, born 9 July, 2012.
Shipsview ( talk) 07:59, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
Why are the titles Lord Hamilton (1445) and Marquis of Hamilton (1599) not in the list at the top of the page? — Tamfang ( talk) 18:13, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
I have asked User:Brendandh to provide a source for the claim that the Dukes of Hamilton are still Earls of Cambridge (see User talk:Proteus, User talk:Brendandh and User:Proteus/Duke of Hamilton for discussions). In my view, the source provided does not say what Brendandh says it does (and rather states that the Dukes hold an Earldom of Arran and Cambridge in the Peerage of Scotland created in 1643 along with the Dukedom, and no longer an English Earldom of Cambridge). I have therefore marked as disputed the relevant sections. I would be grateful if other editors could study the sources, as it seems clear that Brendandh and I are not going to agree. Proteus (Talk) 11:34, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
When exactly did the change happen? Looking at the London Gazette, the future 10th Duke is called "the Right Honourable Alexander Hamilton (commonly called Marquis of Douglas and Clydesdale)" in 1806, his younger brother is called "the Right Honourable Archibald Hamilton, commonly called Lord Archibald Hamilton" the next year, and the younger son of the 11th Duke (later 7th Earl of Selkirk) is called "Lord Charles George Archibald Hamilton" in 1872. The earliest reference I can find to anyone with the surname Douglas-Hamilton is in 1874, with a reference to "Charles Henry Douglas- Hamilton, late of Upper Mount, Shanklin, Isle of Wight, in the county of Southampton, Esquire, Commander in the Royal Nary, deceased, who died on or on or about the 30th day of November, 1873" (i.e. the father of the 13th Duke). This accords with Cracroft's Peerage, which asserts that the surname was adopted by Augustus Barrington Price Anne Powell Hamilton (father of the Commander Douglas-Hamilton above and grandfather of the 13th Duke), at some unspecified point before he died in 1849 (if we can rely on the fact that he is "Hamilton later Douglas-Hamilton" and yet his children are simply "Douglas-Hamilton", then at some point before the birth of his first son in 1807). Is this correct? I can see no evidence it was ever used by the 12th Duke or his brother (and, indeed, as the 12th Duke was a courtesy peer from birth, he never would have used a surname in any event), and it seems it may have been an innovation purely of the 13th Duke's line of the family. Proteus (Talk) 22:54, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
OFFS, "all the sources"? Why don't you chaps just go and have a trot to Lennoxlove and have a look at the hard copy, eh? Brendandh ( talk) 23:57, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
I don't have a horse, and if I did, I wouldn't be in trotting distance. Tinynanorobots ( talk) 16:14, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
This appears to partly a conflict between authorities: Complete Peerage agrees with the research above (the tenth and eleventh dukes were Hamilton, the 12th Douglas-Hamilton) but ODNB calls all three of them Douglas-Hamilton
However, ODNB calls the fourth Duke James Hamilton and explains "Called after his maternal grandfather, James, like his twelve brothers and sisters, took his mother's surname, for the second duke of Hamilton's entail stipulated that her husband and children were to ‘take on, use and weir the name and armes of the house of Hamilton’" (quoting from the Lennoxlove archives; you may want to doublecheck them, Brendandh). So was the change late in the seventeenth century, in the eighteenth, or in the nineteenth? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:47, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
if the last name is douglas-hamilton, shouldn't the arms have douglas in the first quarter? Tinynanorobots ( talk) 22:27, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
how is it the the Duke of Hamilton has a double name and is Chief of Hamilton? Tinynanorobots ( talk) 03:16, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
The death certificate of the 15th Duke gives his name as Hamilton, not D-H, and the 15th Duke always called himself Angus Hamilton - he never used D-H. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sebmelmoth ( talk • contribs) 10:34, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
This is not right. In the 1980s when Michael Ancram became a Government Minister, the Lord Lyon wrote to him to say his name was either Michael Ker or the Earl of Ancram but not a mixture. Likewise Tam Galbraith, the father of the current Lord Strathclyde, never called himself Tam Strathclyde. This muddle of geography and surname is a modern affectation. Sebmelmoth ( talk) 11:44, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
As the Earldom of Selkirk has been disclaimed by James D-H presumably all its subsidiary titles are also in abeyance - including Lord Daer? After all, it is at his discretion that his son may use the title: he could keep it for himself and not offer it as a courtesy title for one of his sons. That would make all his sons "The Hon." as sons of a life baron - rather than those titles which go with being the sons of an earl? Sebmelmoth ( talk) 11:28, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
I think this reports usage not fact. All the titles are owned by the primary holder and as a courtesy he enables their use by family. It is not a part of the creation of a title that juniors get gravy too. Sebmelmoth ( talk) 06:18, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
In 2013, Lord Lucas of Crudwell (England) and of Dingwall (Scotland) introduced his Equality (Titles) Bill in the House of Lords. The provisions of the bill would allow for the eldest born in the family to inherit the family title. The initial statute provided that the bill would be permissive, which is to say, that, application could be made to the Lord Chancellor to change the inheritance of a title.
The initial draft bill was followed swiftly by some amendments made by the Earl of Clancarty, one of which was to make it mandatory for the title to go to the eldest child. No doubt both peers were inspired by the recent Succession to the Crown Act 2013 which enabled the eldest child of the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge, whether male or female, to become monarch.
There is then the further question of the myriad of hereditary offices of state which come with some chiefly titles. For example The Duke of Hamilton is Hereditary Keeper of the Palace of Holyroodhouse. There are others such as the The Earl of Errol, chief of the Hays, who is Lord High Constable of Scotland; The Earl of Lauderdale, chief of the Maitlands, is hereditary bearer of the National Flag of Scotland. There are others that would be affected, or become separated from their traditional families, without careful thought and consideration.
The implications for Scottish titles and for clan chiefs can best be followed here: [ [3]] Shipsview ( talk) 20:49, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
We have a problem with this editor, whose contributions on this page, and in other articles, seem to be almost always reverted. Is the an Admin who can look at this? Shipsview ( talk) 09:27, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 6 external links on Duke of Hamilton. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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This message was posted before February 2018.
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have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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The following text is moved here from my User page on behalf of user:Reid of Clewis. Shhhnotsoloud ( talk) 07:36, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
In your article on the Duke of Hamilton you claim that he is head of both the house of Hamilton and of Douglas. This cannot be as a person can only be the head of one family. The head of the Douglas family is claimed by both the Marquess of Queensberry and the Earl of Morton. All other Douglas claimants, the Duke of Hamilton, the Duke of Queensberry, the Earl of Home and the Earl of Wemyss are heads of other families. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Reid of Clewis ( talk • contribs) 20:12, 29 March 2020 (UTC)