This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

I noticed the other day that someone had edited this article when perusing the "recent changes" log. Upon clicking the link and seeing the article, my first thought was that it needed a major rewrite. I took one class at Drew a few years back, so if any Drew alumni or students find mistakes, what can I say?

I look forward to any comments on the rewritten article. -- ExplorerCDT 19:02, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

P.S. -- Someone please either point me to a reference listing notable Drew alumni or faculty. Searching through the University website and online, I can't find any such resource. I don't want to ask are there any? Also need a copy of the university seal-- the complex coat of arms. -- ExplorerCDT 19:04, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Congratulations to the person or persons responsible for how wonderful this article was. I thought it was very well done at first, but when I perused the articles of the other colleges I'm considering I discovered that my initial assessment was an understatement. I'm planning on applying early decision to Drew; wish me luck! -- 68.239.165.151 07:13, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Shouldn't this ('Freely have you received, freely give —Matthew 10:8')="hiddenStructure" go into the body of the article or at the bottom instead of above the title sentence.-- Dakota ~ ° 00:47, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Should there be a huge sports template on the main page? Maybe this is more appropriate under a subpage of what intercollegic sports are available at Drew. (Bear in mind, I was a Drew fencer in my time...) RsrchBoy 03:47, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Are we certain Andrea McArdle went to Drew? I never heard of such a thing in my time there and I'm not sure her career is even open for four years of college. Aileen Quinn was definitely at Drew, however. Mrw1975 06:08, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

These have been moved here from a subpage as part of a cleanup process. See Wikipedia:Discontinuation of comments subpages.

I have assessed this article as C-class and identified the following areas for improvement:

• The article needs references

shirulashem (talk) 01:15, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Who deleted Robert M. Price from the notable alumni list? I swear I've posted his name at least twice, with a legitimate reference, and it's been deleted both times. I'm going to keep re-posting it, so don't delete it unless you first discuss it on the talk page! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.28.140.81 ( talk) 07:25, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

I deleted the section. If you wish to insert it, then we should discuss it first. 1. You should identify yourself. Making unsigned edits makes it look like you are bragging about yourself? 2. You source a website that is owned by Robert M. Price. This is directly against the spirit of WP:IRS which requires verifiable third party information. (i.e. You simply can't define Robert Price by citing Robert Price.) 3. You continually list this entry first in a section which is clearly alphabetized. "P" does not come first in the alphabet. 4. The section is for notable alumni. We should engage in a discussion on why Mr. Price is notable. If we list all Drew alums, we will crash Wikipedia. Revmqo ( talk) 09:02, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

I have inserted notations on entries which need citations/references in this section. For the record, only one entry is properly cited. I will remove those items which have not been properly sourced in the near future. Also, I welcome the discussion as to what makes a Drew alum "notable." Revmqo ( talk) 09:18, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

1. I don't see how someone could think I'm bragging about myself. The reason why I'm unsigned is precisely because I'm a nobody (I hardly ever edit Wikipedia anyway, so I'm not going to bother making an account). 2. I found a third-party reference. 3. I stupidly did not realize it was alphabetized, my mistake. 4. There are several reasons for considering Robert Price a notable alumni. He has authored more than a dozen books, appeared on several radio shows and podcasts (such as infidelguy.com and the Center for Inquiry podcast), engaged in numerous public debates with Christian apologists (such as William Lane Craig, Greg Boyd, and Phil Fernandez), and was a Fellow of the Jesus Seminar. He also appeared in Brian Flemming's 2005 documentary "The God Who Wasn't There." He is among the most knowledgeable and well known biblical scholars of our time. I think these are some pretty good reasons for considering somebody "notable." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.28.140.81 ( talk) 18:46, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

I notice that the sentence mentioning that the school has an unarmed public safety department was removed. Why was this charged? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dwainwr123 ( talk • contribs) 02:23, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Because if you read there website, they are police.. Just unarmed.. Did you read there website.. I use to go to school there.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.97.92.174 ( talk) 08:01, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

I did look at the website, and I don't see anything saying that they are police. They don't carry guns, they don't attend the police academy, and they don't have police arrest powers (i.e., more than a citizens' power to arrest). Show me where they are called police. See link below. http://www.drew.edu/Safety/about-the-department Debbie W. 00:48, 22 September 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dwainwr123 ( talk • contribs)

There have recently been a number of edits, re-edits, and undos of the statement on crime and alcohol violations. There is a reference from the college's Department of Public Safety listing the number of reportable crimes and the number of alcohol, drug, and weapons violations. If newer data becomes available that contradicts the claim that Drew has a low rate of crime, but a high rate of alcohol violations, then I think we should change this sentence. Until then, this sentence should remain as-is. Debbie W. 22:52, 22 September 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dwainwr123 ( talk • contribs)

Why is this information important enough to include in this encyclopedia article? Have others reported on this or described it as important or are we cherry-picking raw data from a secondary source? ElKevbo ( talk) 00:01, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

That's a valid question. I decided to look at the Wikipedia pages for other colleges, and some of them do mention this type of info, and some don't. The there are three links below, one that discusses Drew low crime rate (as well as all the crime, drug, alcohol, and weapons stats), one that says that there are excessive alcohol-related violations at Drew, and the last is from Rutgers' Wikipedia page, which likewise discusses police practices on campus.

http://www.drew.edu/Safety/statistics#Introduction http://www.njcvlc.org/reference/brief/download.php?id=49' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rutgers#Residential_life Debbie W. 00:59, 23 September 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dwainwr123 ( talk • contribs)

I merged the Drew alumni article back into this article. I'm not sure why we'd want a separate article for it. It's not that long, and my experience is that separate alumni articles are not properly maintained because they get less traffic. 71.125.70.37 ( talk) 18:32, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

I moved the section to a list because it was a collecting place for people whose only notability was in their own mind. Also there were only a few properly cited people on the list. This list is a clear distraction from the main article and simply makes it too long. Sorry you disagree with my action, but why not discuss it before making unilateral changes? Revmqo ( talk) 19:08, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

WP:ALUMNI suggests a separate page for college alumni if the list gets very large, but this list isn't that large. Drew's list of alumni and faculty contain 54 names. NJIT has 57 names, and there is no separate page. Seton Hall has around 160 names, and there is no separate page. On the other hand, Rutgers and Princeton each have around 500 notable alumni and faculty, so there are separate lists. A person only needs citations if they do not have their own article. Specifically WP:LISTPEOPLE states that if a person in a list does not have an article in Wikipedia about them, a citation (or link to another article) must be provided to establish their membership in the list's group and to establish their notability on either BLP1E or BIO1E. If you have an objection to any particular individual(s) on this list, please explain. 71.125.70.37 ( talk) 22:01, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

If you look at the history, even the bot thought it was vandalism. Multiple RR edits from varying ip addresses??

Anyway, I think it is unnecessary and bulky. It also has a tendency to collect self-important people. As a result I moved it. I realize that this is only my opinion, but there should have been some discussion before unilaterally relocating months after the edit. Revmqo ( talk) 19:10, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

It's fine if you disagree with the edit but it's disrespectful to label it vandalism on those grounds alone.

Related to the article content: Have you read the editor's comments in Talk? He or she makes an argument that the list collects more cruft as a stand-alone list since those are usually watched by fewer editors than main college and university articles. I don't have any numbers to support that claim and our colleague did not provide any but my experience leads me to believe that it's probably true. ElKevbo ( talk) 19:20, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

I helped clean up the alumni lists of other colleges in New Jersey, and I found that separate alumni lists are undesireable unless there are hundreds of notable alumni. With standalone alumni lists, there may be less incidents of namechecking, but when non-notable names are added they are rarely removed. When alumni lists are integrated into the main article, you have a better chance of someone adding a non-notable name, but it's quickly removed.

As for the claim that Drew's list are group of "self-important people", I decided to do some research. Drew's list of alumni and faculty had 54, which is not out-of-line for regionally-known liberal arts college. Comparatively, NJIT has 57, Seton Hall around 160, while Rutgers and Princeton have around 500. Of the 54, 49 had their own Wiki page, and 5 did not. Of the 5 that did not, I removed 2 that weren't really notable -- Mayra Rivera Rivera and Susan Morrison. I will add references to the other 3 ( Jospeh Blotner, Holly Bakke, George Kelsey), since names on a list without their own page are required to have a citation.

Of the 49 with their own page, I believe that at least 46 of them are notable. Keep in mind that a lot of names on the list are Methodist bishops, and bishops are major denominations are often considered notable. There are 3 that I put proposed deletion tags on, but it looks like the tags were removed, so I will have them submitted to AfD. 71.125.72.106 ( talk) 15:15, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

I realize that you are trying to help, but what is your basis for "notable?" Susan Morrison is perhaps one of the most notable on the list. I realize that she doesn't have a Wiki page, but her accomplishments far outweigh many others on the list. As for my earlier comments of self-important people, I've endeavored to remove those who self promote on this article. Some, and by no means all, are simply college graduates.... nothing makes them notable. I still believe that having the list appear on the main article takes away from the content of the main article. Most of the names on the list contribute little to an understanding of "Drew University." I am willing to disagree, but let's have a real discussion about what make one notable in ref to Drew. Just having a wiki page isn't enough. Many simply don't meet the requirements of WP:People. Revmqo ( talk) 22:19, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Revmqo, I think you are creating a new standard that differs from Wikipedia policy. If a person is notable enough to have their own Wikipedia page, and they attended Drew, then they should be on this list. WP:ALUMNI states Alumni to be included must meet Wikipedia notability criteria. All alumni meeting these criteria are to be included on an alumni list, regardless of how much time they have spent on a school roll, from one day to several years, and whether or not they graduated.

In terms of Susan Morrison, we can re-add her if you have a citation that shows her notability. Each person listed must either have their own Wiki page or a citation. If there are other people on this list who you believe lack notability, please tell us who they are. Likewise, if there is anyone that you believe is missing from this list, we can add them. 71.251.33.239 ( talk) 02:04, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

How about identifying yourself first? Revmqo ( talk) 02:23, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Revmqo, my name is David, and I am alum of Drew. I made some modifications to the alumni list to add citations, and more accurate descriptions. You have repeatly stated that some people should be removed from this alumni list because of lack of notability. Who do you believe lacks notability? 71.251.33.239 ( talk) 02:34, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

• Here's a quick look answer....

1. David B. Audretsch - all sources are either corrupt or are publications of the author. No creditable sources that he didn't produce. Against WP policy. 2. Albert Baez - the only source that isn't corrupt is an obit. Not sure that this meets the standard. 3. Holly Bakke - red link and the source says absolutely nothing about Drew University, and is suspect at best. 4. Clint Bolick - again sources are self published or suspect 5. Gary Braun - again self-published source

I don't really want to go further without discussing. So far I've gone through the first 8 names on the current list, and at least half are suspect and don't meet the requirements put forth in WP:PEOPLE. This isn't my opinion as you have suggested, but a fair estimate of what the WP policy says weighed against those listed. The facts simply don't back up the claims. If you keep going down the list, the problems continue. Let me know what you think! I realize that this is a matter of perspective, but WP is clear that you don't merit a WP page if you only have self-published sources. Revmqo ( talk) 02:48, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Randomly selected another name lower on the list, Teresa Ruiz (politician), again all sources are her own website. This just doesn't cut it! I do admit there are quite a few legitimate posts thought! ! Revmqo ( talk) 02:52, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Article on Neil Clarke (editor) has no sources as to bio, only awards. No source links him to Drew. Should I keep proving my point? Revmqo ( talk) 03:16, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

@ 71.251.33.239 you can't use the subjects own work as a source, at least not as the only source. It should be a reliable THIRD party. Revmqo ( talk) 03:24, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for going through some of the entries. I think that the real problem in most of these cases is insufficient citation, not lack of notability. Essentially, I believe that the people meet WP:BIO, but their Wiki articles are poorly written. Here my opinion on each person that you cite.

1. David B. Audretsch - he's published at least 7 books [1], and there is an reference from Indiana University discussing his winning on an internation economics award. [2] He easily meets the WP:PROF notability standard.

2. Albert Baez - I found a different obit from the San Francisco Chronicle that says that discusses his invention of the X-ray reflection microscope, and his role as a humanitarian. [3] Baez is not as significant in his physics as Audretsch is in economics, but I tend to think that he would pass the WP:PROF standard if we went to AfD.

3. Holly Bakke - Bakke was the head of New Jersey Department of Banking and Insurance under Governor Jim McGreevey. I found a better link showing that she is a Drew alum [4], and I added it to the article. As a state cabinet-level officer, she definitely meets the WP:politician notability standard.

4. Clint Bolick - Bolick's article is badly written. However, the Institute for Justice article lists him as the co-founder. As the co-founder of a prominent think tank/legal aid organization, Bolick meets the WP:BIO notability standard.

5. Gary Braun - Gary Braun is NOT notable, and this article should be sent to AfD. As an occasional contributor to a regionally-broadcast radio show, he does not meet the WP:ENT standard.

6. Teresa Ruiz is a member of the New Jersey Senate, and every member of the NJ state legislature has a Wiki article.

7. Neil Clarke went to Drew and later worked at Drew [5], but I doubt that he is notable. He puts out a monthly fantasy magazine, Clarkesworld, but when I went to Manta to check out Wyrm Publishing [6], the company that Neil Clarke owns, it shows that he is the only employee. I think it's fair to say that he isn't notable.

Look at Daffin Backstrom and Tom Limoncelli and tell me if you think they are notable or not. Personally, I think they're not. The former is a good athlete and coach, but I doubt that he meets WP:NCOLLATH. The latter is system administrator and bisexual activist, but I really don't see anything notable. Thanks for your help. 71.251.33.239 ( talk) 03:36, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

I've restored Susan Morrison to the list and added a ref. I will get around to creating a page for her, just not tonight. Revmqo ( talk) 04:15, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Morrison should be restored to the list. If you look at the last page of the Bakke reference [7], it lists who wrote the newsletter, and it's not Bakke. Thus, we can use it as a reference. Add Damon DiMarco as a another candidate for AfD. The references cited in the Dimarco article aren't really about him. 71.251.33.239 ( talk) 04:58, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

[EC] I believe you are wrong with the article you keep using as a source. It is a "meesage from the commissioner" and the subject is that commissioner. It fails to be a third party source. If she is the commissioner she has full control over what it says. It is not and cannot be objective. Revmqo ( talk) 05:01, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Fair enough. I'll get a different source. 71.251.33.239 ( talk) 05:19, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Vanderbeek's article doesn't properly source Drew as his alma matter. I don't doubt the fact, but you can't use a blog as a source. Without a valid source, his inclusion is dubious. Revmqo ( talk) 05:38, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

I added a new reference for Holly Bakke, and I added references for Clint Bolick and James Vanderbeek. I split the alumni list into CLA, Grad, and Theo schools. Although they have their own Wikipedia pages, there were 8 alumni who I did not include on the grounds that they weren't notable. They are Gary Braun, Neil Clarke, Daffin Backstrom, Tom Limoncelli, Damon DiMarco, Michael L. Baird, Mark Jacobs, Ed Lynch. 71.251.39.105 ( talk) 02:11, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

I commend your work so far toward improving the article, but wholeheartedly disagree with your segregation of the alumni list. Graduates of Drew University are alumni of the university, not a division of that university. Further, many notable Drew alumni have degrees from multiple divisions within the University. How about we come to some consensus before we radically change the page? I still fervently argue that we should have a separate linked list instead of listing all of these folks on the main page. Most just aren't that germain to the article.

You should also note that your insistence on deleting the separate list has not gone over all that well. You can't just blank a page. I know that you identified yourself as "David", but it woud be better if you created an account to make all of these major edits, or sign into the account you already have? Just my thoughts on the matter.

Revmqo, I took your advice and created an account. I don't really care if we have the CLA, Grad, and Theo schools separate or not. Some universities list their alumni together, and some do not. Although I didn't see any cases of it, you make a good point that there is the potential for a person to have degrees from multiple schools (e.g., CLA & Theo). As for the List of Drew University alumni, I received your messages, and I will not remove this list again. However, long term, I don't think that we should have two alumni lists which are different. Everyone on the List of Drew University alumni is on the Drew University#Drew University Alumni list, but not vice versa. DavidinNJ ( talk) 05:31, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

The proper procedure would be to nominate it for deletion WP:AfD. But again, I think we should discuss having the list separately rather than on the mainpage. As you've added more and more names, it is becoming cumbersome, and again it is my opinion that many are irrelevant but that they graduated from Drew. Revmqo ( talk) 05:33, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

How would you feel about having a separate list but naming it List of Drew University people? In my time dealing with other colleges Wiki pages, I found that many of them had a consolidated page for both alumni and faculty. For example, List of Princeton University people and List of Rutgers University people. It doesn't make sense to me to list notable faculty on the Drew University page but notable alumni on a separate page. DavidinNJ ( talk) 05:51, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

I would move the Drew University Alumni List to List of Drew University people, then add all the faculty and presidents on that list as well.-- Nnnnkkkk ( talk) 10:32, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

I moved the updated alumni list to list of Drew University alumni. I agree with your plan of consolidating alumni, faculty, and presidents on one page. DavidinNJ ( talk) 17:39, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

• Comment. You guys are kind of discussing this issue in splendid isolation. All categories for people by university are divided into faculty categories and alumni categories. There are none that combine the two into a general "people" category. This allows the categories to be tied into much broader categorizations for alumni by university and faculty by university. When a "people" category exists, it holds subcategories, and two of the subcategories that are almost always there are an alumni category and a faculty category. In this case, if you want to merge the two into a people category, it would need to be proposed at WP:CFD, but I doubt that there would be any general support for treating Drew University alumni and faculty differently than the alumni and faculty for all other universities in the world. I know you all mean well. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 23:05, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Good Ol'factory, Thank you for cleaning up the categories. I previously merged the categories because they were unlinked. Specifically, there were an alumni category linked to the main Drew University article, a faculty category which wasn't connected to anything (I stumbled on it by accident), and university presidents which weren't in any category. I think using Category:Drew University people as a main category, and having the two subcategories makes more sense. Thank you for your help. DavidinNJ ( talk) 03:00, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

I see—it's the linkage that was in issue. Yes, that can be a problem if users fail to link the faculty category and alumni category to each other. I suppose that's taken care of now that both are in a common Category:Drew University people. Thanks. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 03:02, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

I think that we should add more info on the Graduate and Theological Schools. I could be wrong, but I think that the Graduate program added several new degrees (e.g., M.A.T.) in the last decade. Additionally, there is minimal history listed for these schools. DavidinNJ ( talk) 11:55, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Aim to bring this article to GA and FA status by the close of the year, using the organization recommended by the Universities Wikiproject and other university/college articles that have achieved GA and FA status. Look forward to working with the article's contributors in making this happen. -- ColonelHenry ( talk) 14:29, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

• Notifications: @ DavidinNJ:, @ Revmqo:, @ Good Olfactory:

Proposed new outline

• Lede
• 1.0 Campus
  • This section would include a general description of the campus, and combine information from the sections regarding points of interest and shooting locations in the article at present.
• 2.0 History
  • 1.1 Establishment, role as a seminary (1867-1928)
  • 1.2 As a liberal arts college - adding undergrad education, graduate studies (1928-1990)
  • 1.3 DU today - growth of the school since Kean took the helm (1990-present)
• 4.0 Academic Profile
  • 4.1 Accreditation and affiliations
  • 4.2 Degrees/Programs
    • Undergraduate education
    • Graduate education
    • Theological education
  • 4.3 Admissions and financial aid
  • 4.4 Libraries/Collections
  • 4.5 Research
• 5.0 Student life
  • 5.1 Housing and residential life
  • 5.2 Student organizations and activities (combining the current sections on A cappella, Theater, Theme houses, Media, and other information)
  • 5.3 Athletics
  • 5.4 Public Safety
• 6.0 Notable people
  • Brief section with a paragraph or two on notable faculty and alumni, linking with a Main hatnote to the List of Drew University people article.
• 7.0 Gallery
• 8.0 See also
• 9.0 References (footnotes and further reading combined)
• 10.0 External links