This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
It is ridiculous to pose the affluent, successful Noam Chomsky as somehow being a political dissident in the US, as if he were somehow persecuted or prevented from airing his grievances. Simply disagreeing with official policy and writing numerous tracts to voice this does not qualify one as a dissident anymore than thousands of other unhappy commentators.
If we are going to compare "so-called" democracies to blatantly authoritarian regimes, then specific examples of actual persecution (as opposed to boycotts or investigation of legitimate wrongdoing) need to be briefly expounded. Armed groups, as the article leans toward saying, more properly fit in the mold of guerrillas, resistance groups, terrorists, etc.
Still Chomsky is not on the list. May be the article needs to be split on say Soviet dissidents, Chinese and US. I agree that Chomsky is widely percieved as a dissident. Now there are 250 000 results in google when you type "dissident noam chomsky". He is widely reffered as a dissiden. -- 212.72.201.199 16:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Chomsky is rather successful today, bit back in the 1960s he was arrested for his views (with some of his colleagues http://pabook.libraries.psu.edu/palitmap/bios/Chomsky__Noam.html) Chomsky even expected harsh prison sentence, although that can be judged as subjective point of view (on the other hand, he has proven himself often as very objective and also easy to admit his mistakes - not that he makes many anyway). So, to put it short - being arrested for your standpoint is more than enough for me to be qualified as dissident, not everyone should end up in a gulag like Solzhenitsyn in order to be a dissident (especially given that USA had no gulags as far as I know). Being successful now and having respectable career does not mean that one was not persecuted back in the days. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ansicpl ( talk • contribs) 00:44, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
This article might be fleshed out to describe the various historic roles of dissident in society, including the anthropological data on dissidents in chimpanzee societies. Accordingly, the article might flow as follows.
That may be true as far as improving the article, but I'd like to address the issue regarding the world representation dilemma. I don't think that should even be a problem. There is a reason that this page is in English and is different from the Chinese page or the German page or any other language. There is a difference between biased agenda and not representing all world views. That's what I think this article needs...to realize! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.94.19.67 ( talk) 23:04, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
There are also religious dissidents, which are those who actively oppose a dominant religion of a country.
In democratic societies political and social dissidents are supposed to be free from government pressure
How much can one get in prison when calling to abolishing the US constitution?-- Nixer 15:42, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
I think the term is mostly used according the USSR. In other countries (western, Asian, Nazi Germany etc) leaders of opposition or rebels are not called dissidents. So this is USSR-specific term.-- Nixer 20:13, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
What about House Un-American Activities Committee? Wasn't that really a search for American dissidents? -- 80.203.34.177 ( talk) 06:35, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
Why does pharmacological dissent take up the maojority of space in this article? Maybe extending the first, general description of dissent would be better?
As far as the sources state, the United States is the country which keeps more proportion of its population under the torture of confinement. And the main cause for imprisonment in US seems to be racially and classy selective drug "offenses" prosecution. So, pharamacological dissent seems to deserve space, for it would be the leading cause of physical repression of dissidents in US, a country self-described by its authorities as "democratic" (remeber countries such as the Democratic Republics of East Europe).
Yes, but one of the most famous dissident in Spain is Antonio Escohotado who you can find in http://www.escohotado.org Any person can include english version of http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escohotado
The definition of this seciton corresponds to the word insurgents. This section should be moved there. dima 23:21, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
The section on the US seems silly to me. So, two articles or so have described Chomsky and Zinn as dissidents. Is that worthy of an encyclopedia article? David Duke has probably been described as a dissident by someone; lots of conservatives think Obama's America is a totalitarian state in which conservatives are dissidents. Should we include in this article any attribution of dissident-ness to anyone? Let's delete that section. BobFromBrockley ( talk) 11:33, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
The addition of US 'dissidents' to the lead adds nothing to the article. Every group in history has played the victim, and at least half of them have arguably been dissidents. I suggest it be removed. I'll wait a decent interval for further comment. Ray Talk 04:16, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
I find that or other all groups are removed, or the US dissidents part should be re-added. Three people (one was me) made chnages, but no matter how it is written, they remove the US dissident part, claiming there are not enough sources (other parts have no sources, but they stay). Why is that? Jerappelle ( talk) 17:13, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
I´m trying to correct the obvious pro-USA anti-USSR bias of the whole article. A undoer expresses that POV by saying "totalitarian is not pejorative of the Soviet Union, it is descriptive". That´s plain POV that diminishes quality of encyclopedia, SINCE Soviet Union, for most of his history, didn´t accepted such cliché. They called themselves popular republics or democratic republics, remember? I think Cold War enthusiasts could create an article for "Soviet dissidence during Cold War" to stop narrowing the scope of such an important article. Drcaldev ( talk) 16:10, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
In my opinion Chomsky cannot be considered a dissident in that he is not openly paying a price for his ideas. Manning (incarcerated) and Snowden, yes, becaue they are paying a price for exposing wrongdoing by their government. When you show wrongdoing by your government (people sent to Siberia (URSS), or military people torturing others in Iraq (USA)) and your government instead of doing something about the abuses puts you in prison so other people will shut up, that is a dissenter. Chomsky, as far as I know, was never put in prison. Manning was, and was even tortured. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jerappelle ( talk • contribs) 17:01, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
It is ridiculous to pose the affluent, successful Noam Chomsky as somehow being a political dissident in the US, as if he were somehow persecuted or prevented from airing his grievances. Simply disagreeing with official policy and writing numerous tracts to voice this does not qualify one as a dissident anymore than thousands of other unhappy commentators.
If we are going to compare "so-called" democracies to blatantly authoritarian regimes, then specific examples of actual persecution (as opposed to boycotts or investigation of legitimate wrongdoing) need to be briefly expounded. Armed groups, as the article leans toward saying, more properly fit in the mold of guerrillas, resistance groups, terrorists, etc.
Still Chomsky is not on the list. May be the article needs to be split on say Soviet dissidents, Chinese and US. I agree that Chomsky is widely percieved as a dissident. Now there are 250 000 results in google when you type "dissident noam chomsky". He is widely reffered as a dissiden. -- 212.72.201.199 16:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Chomsky is rather successful today, bit back in the 1960s he was arrested for his views (with some of his colleagues http://pabook.libraries.psu.edu/palitmap/bios/Chomsky__Noam.html) Chomsky even expected harsh prison sentence, although that can be judged as subjective point of view (on the other hand, he has proven himself often as very objective and also easy to admit his mistakes - not that he makes many anyway). So, to put it short - being arrested for your standpoint is more than enough for me to be qualified as dissident, not everyone should end up in a gulag like Solzhenitsyn in order to be a dissident (especially given that USA had no gulags as far as I know). Being successful now and having respectable career does not mean that one was not persecuted back in the days. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ansicpl ( talk • contribs) 00:44, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
This article might be fleshed out to describe the various historic roles of dissident in society, including the anthropological data on dissidents in chimpanzee societies. Accordingly, the article might flow as follows.
That may be true as far as improving the article, but I'd like to address the issue regarding the world representation dilemma. I don't think that should even be a problem. There is a reason that this page is in English and is different from the Chinese page or the German page or any other language. There is a difference between biased agenda and not representing all world views. That's what I think this article needs...to realize! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.94.19.67 ( talk) 23:04, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
There are also religious dissidents, which are those who actively oppose a dominant religion of a country.
In democratic societies political and social dissidents are supposed to be free from government pressure
How much can one get in prison when calling to abolishing the US constitution?-- Nixer 15:42, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
I think the term is mostly used according the USSR. In other countries (western, Asian, Nazi Germany etc) leaders of opposition or rebels are not called dissidents. So this is USSR-specific term.-- Nixer 20:13, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
What about House Un-American Activities Committee? Wasn't that really a search for American dissidents? -- 80.203.34.177 ( talk) 06:35, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
Why does pharmacological dissent take up the maojority of space in this article? Maybe extending the first, general description of dissent would be better?
As far as the sources state, the United States is the country which keeps more proportion of its population under the torture of confinement. And the main cause for imprisonment in US seems to be racially and classy selective drug "offenses" prosecution. So, pharamacological dissent seems to deserve space, for it would be the leading cause of physical repression of dissidents in US, a country self-described by its authorities as "democratic" (remeber countries such as the Democratic Republics of East Europe).
Yes, but one of the most famous dissident in Spain is Antonio Escohotado who you can find in http://www.escohotado.org Any person can include english version of http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escohotado
The definition of this seciton corresponds to the word insurgents. This section should be moved there. dima 23:21, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
The section on the US seems silly to me. So, two articles or so have described Chomsky and Zinn as dissidents. Is that worthy of an encyclopedia article? David Duke has probably been described as a dissident by someone; lots of conservatives think Obama's America is a totalitarian state in which conservatives are dissidents. Should we include in this article any attribution of dissident-ness to anyone? Let's delete that section. BobFromBrockley ( talk) 11:33, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
The addition of US 'dissidents' to the lead adds nothing to the article. Every group in history has played the victim, and at least half of them have arguably been dissidents. I suggest it be removed. I'll wait a decent interval for further comment. Ray Talk 04:16, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
I find that or other all groups are removed, or the US dissidents part should be re-added. Three people (one was me) made chnages, but no matter how it is written, they remove the US dissident part, claiming there are not enough sources (other parts have no sources, but they stay). Why is that? Jerappelle ( talk) 17:13, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
I´m trying to correct the obvious pro-USA anti-USSR bias of the whole article. A undoer expresses that POV by saying "totalitarian is not pejorative of the Soviet Union, it is descriptive". That´s plain POV that diminishes quality of encyclopedia, SINCE Soviet Union, for most of his history, didn´t accepted such cliché. They called themselves popular republics or democratic republics, remember? I think Cold War enthusiasts could create an article for "Soviet dissidence during Cold War" to stop narrowing the scope of such an important article. Drcaldev ( talk) 16:10, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
In my opinion Chomsky cannot be considered a dissident in that he is not openly paying a price for his ideas. Manning (incarcerated) and Snowden, yes, becaue they are paying a price for exposing wrongdoing by their government. When you show wrongdoing by your government (people sent to Siberia (URSS), or military people torturing others in Iraq (USA)) and your government instead of doing something about the abuses puts you in prison so other people will shut up, that is a dissenter. Chomsky, as far as I know, was never put in prison. Manning was, and was even tortured. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jerappelle ( talk • contribs) 17:01, 2 August 2013 (UTC)