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Reviewer: Jenhawk777 ( talk · contribs) 09:16, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
Hello, I am excited to review this GA nomination.
Good Article review progress box
|
Looking forward to your feedback and as long as you're actively working on it, happy to wait a bit longer before deciding. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 23:17, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
Hi VenusFeuerFalle I understand you have asked for a second opinion. I am Jenhawk777. I write exclusively on religion and philosophy as those are my undergrad degrees, and I have some grad school in philosophy in the field of ethics. A glance at this article tells me a lot of quality work has gone into this. It's both impressive and quite fascinating. I will do a section at a time, if that works for you. I'll focus primarily on prose but I will also check content and do the occasional reference check as I go through.
While the devil played for most scholars no significant role in the Modern Era, he became more important in contemporary Christianity again.
Sentence structure is awkward. I'd put 'For most scholars' at the front, and the second half needs explaining.
The lead should be a summary of the content of the article, and this one's a little thin, especially for such a long article with so much substantive content. Jenhawk777 ( talk) 17:37, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
accuser" or "adversary", which is used...This sentence is too long. Divide it. I suggest ending the first sentence after adversary and beginning the second sentence with "The term is used... That makes the third sentence begin with a repetition, so just change "The word" to It.
When it is used without the definite article (simply satan), the word can refer to any accuser,[7] but when it is used with the definite article (Ha-Satan), it usually refers specifically to the heavenly accuser: "The Satan. Try: "When satan is used without a definite article, it refers to any accuser, but "the Satan" (Ha-Satan), with a definite article, usually refers to the heavenly accuser. (Pick usually or specifically, both aren't necessary.) Done
The word with the definite article...Just use the word: "Satan with the definite article ... Done
The word without the definite article is .. Book of Numbers, 1 & 2 Samuel and 1 Kings).The trouble here is that there are two other words also used for "devils" and demons – sâ'îr and shêd – in Zechariah, Isaiah, Job, Habakuk, 1 and 2 Chronicles, Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Psalms.
God asks one of them, Satan, where he has been, to which he replies that he has been roaming..."God asks Satan where he has been. Satan replies, roaming the earth." Keep it simple when you can. Done
Satan replies by urging God to let him torture Job, promising that Job will abandon his faith at the first tribulationNot exactly. Satan replies by pointing out how God has blessed Job – “Does Job fear God for nothing?" – take that away and he will curse you. Done
urging God to let him torture Jobis technically inaccurate. Satan never asks to torture Job. He asks to test his faith, to prove that Job is only a "fair-weather-friend". God consents to temporarily removing his blessing and protection, and the implication is that God has faith in Job. Interesting huh? Torture is never mentioned. Jenhawk777 ( talk) 04:09, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
God consents; Satan destroys Job's servants and flocks, yet Job refuses to condemn God.[12]Add in that all his sons and daughters were also killed, and then Job's health, but that the story says he got back double what he had lost in the end. Done
Satan requests God to test him and to let him torture Job, so Job would abandon his faith. Do you have a reference that says 'torture'? Jenhawk777 ( talk) 04:44, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
Since the satan is sent by the will of God, his function resembles less the devilish enemy of God, and even if it is accepted that this satan refers to a supernatural agent, it is not necessarily implied this is the Satan.I would divide it. Done
Some parts of the Bible, which do not originally refer to an evil spirit or Satan, have been retrospectively interpreted as references to the devil.[22]We'll discuss this one when I come back. :-) Jenhawk777 ( talk) 17:37, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
References
Jenhawk777 ( talk) 08:19, 19 February 2022 (UTC) Done
for example Hieronymus, in his Vulgate —this will be confusing for the average reader. If you want to give his name in the original languages, begin with the common name first: "Jerome, or Saint Jerome, (Latin: Eusebius Sophronius Hieronymus; Greek: Εὐσέβιος Σωφρόνιος Ἱερώνυμος)"... Done
only the mystified end of a Babylonian king.did you mean mysterious? or maybe mystifying? Jenhawk777 ( talk) 05:25, 19 February 2022 (UTC) Done
However, the role of Belial is in opposition to that of Satan: while Belial, representing chaos and death, stands outside of God's cosmos, Satan roams the earth, fighting for the maintenance of the divine order and punishing precisely everything Belial stands for.You'll have to offer some real defense for this one. My Deutsch isn't good enough to decipher the full meaning of the text in the book you reference, but in any case, this claim is seemingly contradicted by your other source. Kelly's Satan: A Biography on page 41 in the footnote about Watson, and on pages 19, 36, 44, 50-51. There's also this
One of the most salient figures to emerge from the Qumran scrolls is the archdemon Belial, leader of the forces of darkness.from
Dimant, Devorah. "Between Qumran Sectarian and Non-Sectarian Texts: The Case of Belial and Mastema." The Dead Sea Scrolls and Contemporary Culture. Brill, 2011. 235-256.And this one
Tucker, Paavo. "Reconsidering Bελιάρ: 2 Corinthians 6: 15 in Its Anti-imperial Jewish Apocalyptic Context." Journal for the Study of Paul and his Letters 4.2 (2014): 169-185.which says
Belial, who epitomizes power hostile to God. I'm thinking Theobald may not be the best source. Jenhawk777 ( talk) 05:25, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
If I didn't comment on something, that means I thought it was good. :-) I'll be back tomorrow. With a little diligence we should be able to finish this in a week easy peasy.
Jenhawk777 (
talk) 05:25, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
... Satan and his angels are clearly in the service of God, akin to Satan in the Book of Job. Satan and his lesser satans act as God's executioners:In the first place, this is uncited, and in the second place, it is decidedly confused. The only source I can find that in any way comes even a little bit close is [1] and Pagels explains it quite differently than you have here.
This is not The Satan with a definite article as you have it here. This is a satan meaning only an adversary. This applies to your discussion of When it is used without the definite article (simply satan), the word can refer to any accuser
and is part of the history of the development of the concept, but it isn't about intertestimental texts, it's about the early Hebrew. If you want to keep this, it should be moved up to Satan in the OT.
References
Jenhawk777 ( talk) 05:28, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
I made a few small grammar corrections, otherwise this section is good.
I corrected some grammar and content on the problem of evil.
creatures first, then the
no comma Done
to this view, which was borrowed
no comma Done
and the existence of the material world is a result
remove "the existence of" Done
destruction and suffering, too.
no comma, no too Done
grasp and the
add a comma after grasp' Done
followed by those who adhere to his will.
is a sentence fragment, it needs fixing
his will
whose? God's or the devils? clarify Done
restored, after
no comma Done
{od}} VenusFeuerFalle I think we have resolved all issues so far and are both caught up to the same place now, (Augustine) so if you are interested in having me finish this, I will. I will tell you that in RL right now, I am under some stress. My mother is in the hospital and not doing well. I should be able to work on this once a day or so - it will provide a good distraction - but it is also possible I may miss a day or two. Jenhawk777 ( talk) 05:24, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
I ended up rewording some of the theology myself, w/citation. Augustine can be difficult. I hope that's okay. If you don't like it, feel free to rephrase yourself. Jenhawk777 ( talk) 06:04, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
This is good; I added a 'that' and a comma, that's all. Jenhawk777 ( talk) 06:04, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
at some point, freely chosen evil
add 'had' after the comma
I moved names in one sentence. This section is good.
Jenhawk777 (
talk) 06:04, 9 March 2022 (UTC) Done
No comments at all on this section except that it's very well done. Jenhawk777 ( talk) 06:04, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
This section is also excellent. All I did was correct one typo. Well done. Jenhawk777 ( talk) 06:04, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
Hi all, just two minor citation issues, the refs for Holden (176) and Campo (6) to not correspond to any items in the bibliography—I'm assuming the full citations are missing. Bravo on the article thus far! Best – Aza24 ( talk) 20:39, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
I made some very minor changes, and there is one citation issue here as well. I know that what you have written is correct, but it does need a citation anyway, especially since it is in wiki-voice. This section is also excellent. The changes I made were very minor, and since I know you are busy in real life, I didn't even think them worth mentioning and just did them. If that's not okay, again, there will be no problems if you go back and do something else. Jenhawk777 ( talk) 19:59, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
I am finally home after over a month of clearing out my mother's house. It's been sad and exhausting and I am glad to be home and back at work on WP. It is late, so I will begin tomorrow. Thank you for being so understanding. Hopefully this will finish up quickly. Jenhawk777 ( talk) 05:16, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
I have gone through it all at least once, some of it twice, and will go through the rest a second time, but I am not finding much to trouble with. I have made a few minor changes to grammar, but otherwise, there is nothing much left. I'll take another day or two to finish up and will then give the okay. It is good, and I have enjoyed working with you. Jenhawk777 ( talk) 04:16, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
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Reviewer: Jenhawk777 ( talk · contribs) 09:16, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
Hello, I am excited to review this GA nomination.
Good Article review progress box
|
Looking forward to your feedback and as long as you're actively working on it, happy to wait a bit longer before deciding. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 23:17, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
Hi VenusFeuerFalle I understand you have asked for a second opinion. I am Jenhawk777. I write exclusively on religion and philosophy as those are my undergrad degrees, and I have some grad school in philosophy in the field of ethics. A glance at this article tells me a lot of quality work has gone into this. It's both impressive and quite fascinating. I will do a section at a time, if that works for you. I'll focus primarily on prose but I will also check content and do the occasional reference check as I go through.
While the devil played for most scholars no significant role in the Modern Era, he became more important in contemporary Christianity again.
Sentence structure is awkward. I'd put 'For most scholars' at the front, and the second half needs explaining.
The lead should be a summary of the content of the article, and this one's a little thin, especially for such a long article with so much substantive content. Jenhawk777 ( talk) 17:37, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
accuser" or "adversary", which is used...This sentence is too long. Divide it. I suggest ending the first sentence after adversary and beginning the second sentence with "The term is used... That makes the third sentence begin with a repetition, so just change "The word" to It.
When it is used without the definite article (simply satan), the word can refer to any accuser,[7] but when it is used with the definite article (Ha-Satan), it usually refers specifically to the heavenly accuser: "The Satan. Try: "When satan is used without a definite article, it refers to any accuser, but "the Satan" (Ha-Satan), with a definite article, usually refers to the heavenly accuser. (Pick usually or specifically, both aren't necessary.) Done
The word with the definite article...Just use the word: "Satan with the definite article ... Done
The word without the definite article is .. Book of Numbers, 1 & 2 Samuel and 1 Kings).The trouble here is that there are two other words also used for "devils" and demons – sâ'îr and shêd – in Zechariah, Isaiah, Job, Habakuk, 1 and 2 Chronicles, Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Psalms.
God asks one of them, Satan, where he has been, to which he replies that he has been roaming..."God asks Satan where he has been. Satan replies, roaming the earth." Keep it simple when you can. Done
Satan replies by urging God to let him torture Job, promising that Job will abandon his faith at the first tribulationNot exactly. Satan replies by pointing out how God has blessed Job – “Does Job fear God for nothing?" – take that away and he will curse you. Done
urging God to let him torture Jobis technically inaccurate. Satan never asks to torture Job. He asks to test his faith, to prove that Job is only a "fair-weather-friend". God consents to temporarily removing his blessing and protection, and the implication is that God has faith in Job. Interesting huh? Torture is never mentioned. Jenhawk777 ( talk) 04:09, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
God consents; Satan destroys Job's servants and flocks, yet Job refuses to condemn God.[12]Add in that all his sons and daughters were also killed, and then Job's health, but that the story says he got back double what he had lost in the end. Done
Satan requests God to test him and to let him torture Job, so Job would abandon his faith. Do you have a reference that says 'torture'? Jenhawk777 ( talk) 04:44, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
Since the satan is sent by the will of God, his function resembles less the devilish enemy of God, and even if it is accepted that this satan refers to a supernatural agent, it is not necessarily implied this is the Satan.I would divide it. Done
Some parts of the Bible, which do not originally refer to an evil spirit or Satan, have been retrospectively interpreted as references to the devil.[22]We'll discuss this one when I come back. :-) Jenhawk777 ( talk) 17:37, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
References
Jenhawk777 ( talk) 08:19, 19 February 2022 (UTC) Done
for example Hieronymus, in his Vulgate —this will be confusing for the average reader. If you want to give his name in the original languages, begin with the common name first: "Jerome, or Saint Jerome, (Latin: Eusebius Sophronius Hieronymus; Greek: Εὐσέβιος Σωφρόνιος Ἱερώνυμος)"... Done
only the mystified end of a Babylonian king.did you mean mysterious? or maybe mystifying? Jenhawk777 ( talk) 05:25, 19 February 2022 (UTC) Done
However, the role of Belial is in opposition to that of Satan: while Belial, representing chaos and death, stands outside of God's cosmos, Satan roams the earth, fighting for the maintenance of the divine order and punishing precisely everything Belial stands for.You'll have to offer some real defense for this one. My Deutsch isn't good enough to decipher the full meaning of the text in the book you reference, but in any case, this claim is seemingly contradicted by your other source. Kelly's Satan: A Biography on page 41 in the footnote about Watson, and on pages 19, 36, 44, 50-51. There's also this
One of the most salient figures to emerge from the Qumran scrolls is the archdemon Belial, leader of the forces of darkness.from
Dimant, Devorah. "Between Qumran Sectarian and Non-Sectarian Texts: The Case of Belial and Mastema." The Dead Sea Scrolls and Contemporary Culture. Brill, 2011. 235-256.And this one
Tucker, Paavo. "Reconsidering Bελιάρ: 2 Corinthians 6: 15 in Its Anti-imperial Jewish Apocalyptic Context." Journal for the Study of Paul and his Letters 4.2 (2014): 169-185.which says
Belial, who epitomizes power hostile to God. I'm thinking Theobald may not be the best source. Jenhawk777 ( talk) 05:25, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
If I didn't comment on something, that means I thought it was good. :-) I'll be back tomorrow. With a little diligence we should be able to finish this in a week easy peasy.
Jenhawk777 (
talk) 05:25, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
... Satan and his angels are clearly in the service of God, akin to Satan in the Book of Job. Satan and his lesser satans act as God's executioners:In the first place, this is uncited, and in the second place, it is decidedly confused. The only source I can find that in any way comes even a little bit close is [1] and Pagels explains it quite differently than you have here.
This is not The Satan with a definite article as you have it here. This is a satan meaning only an adversary. This applies to your discussion of When it is used without the definite article (simply satan), the word can refer to any accuser
and is part of the history of the development of the concept, but it isn't about intertestimental texts, it's about the early Hebrew. If you want to keep this, it should be moved up to Satan in the OT.
References
Jenhawk777 ( talk) 05:28, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
I made a few small grammar corrections, otherwise this section is good.
I corrected some grammar and content on the problem of evil.
creatures first, then the
no comma Done
to this view, which was borrowed
no comma Done
and the existence of the material world is a result
remove "the existence of" Done
destruction and suffering, too.
no comma, no too Done
grasp and the
add a comma after grasp' Done
followed by those who adhere to his will.
is a sentence fragment, it needs fixing
his will
whose? God's or the devils? clarify Done
restored, after
no comma Done
{od}} VenusFeuerFalle I think we have resolved all issues so far and are both caught up to the same place now, (Augustine) so if you are interested in having me finish this, I will. I will tell you that in RL right now, I am under some stress. My mother is in the hospital and not doing well. I should be able to work on this once a day or so - it will provide a good distraction - but it is also possible I may miss a day or two. Jenhawk777 ( talk) 05:24, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
I ended up rewording some of the theology myself, w/citation. Augustine can be difficult. I hope that's okay. If you don't like it, feel free to rephrase yourself. Jenhawk777 ( talk) 06:04, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
This is good; I added a 'that' and a comma, that's all. Jenhawk777 ( talk) 06:04, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
at some point, freely chosen evil
add 'had' after the comma
I moved names in one sentence. This section is good.
Jenhawk777 (
talk) 06:04, 9 March 2022 (UTC) Done
No comments at all on this section except that it's very well done. Jenhawk777 ( talk) 06:04, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
This section is also excellent. All I did was correct one typo. Well done. Jenhawk777 ( talk) 06:04, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
Hi all, just two minor citation issues, the refs for Holden (176) and Campo (6) to not correspond to any items in the bibliography—I'm assuming the full citations are missing. Bravo on the article thus far! Best – Aza24 ( talk) 20:39, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
I made some very minor changes, and there is one citation issue here as well. I know that what you have written is correct, but it does need a citation anyway, especially since it is in wiki-voice. This section is also excellent. The changes I made were very minor, and since I know you are busy in real life, I didn't even think them worth mentioning and just did them. If that's not okay, again, there will be no problems if you go back and do something else. Jenhawk777 ( talk) 19:59, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
I am finally home after over a month of clearing out my mother's house. It's been sad and exhausting and I am glad to be home and back at work on WP. It is late, so I will begin tomorrow. Thank you for being so understanding. Hopefully this will finish up quickly. Jenhawk777 ( talk) 05:16, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
I have gone through it all at least once, some of it twice, and will go through the rest a second time, but I am not finding much to trouble with. I have made a few minor changes to grammar, but otherwise, there is nothing much left. I'll take another day or two to finish up and will then give the okay. It is good, and I have enjoyed working with you. Jenhawk777 ( talk) 04:16, 18 April 2022 (UTC)