Author is sidestepping proper journalism by 'faking' citations that do not lead to authentic references but to more - what may not be called otherwise - than spin and propaganda. Cleanup necessitated.
Previously I had posted a lengthy explanation of why I thought the article was misleading. However, after further reflection, I was able to make some small changes that addressed most of my concerns. There does seem to have been a problem with an earlier editor drawing on a source to define "Deep South" that used the "Deep South" label as a sort of arbitrary category, so that states were included or excluded for reasons that have little to do with the original meaning of the term. I suspect there are remnants of that in the article, but I've doctored it enough that I believe it is essentially accurate now. Ftjrwrites ( talk) 14:06, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
nothing about the reputation (whether fair or not) the deep south has? Saccerzd 16:26, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
For optional guidelines on contributing see WikiProject U.S. regions
"In presidential elections, the Deep South has tended to vote for the Republican candidate since 1964, the most notable exception being the third party campaign of governor of Alabama George Wallace in 1968." I think this is innacurate. This ignores Jimmy Carter in 1976. Bill Clinton also carried most of the "Deep South" in 1992, and a smaller part in 1996. Overall, I think it is too weak to categorize as a trend (although wait 20 years and it will probably be a safe call). State legislatures in the "Deep South" are generally dominated by Democrats, often with a Dem:Rep ratio of 2:1. The governors of these states tend to alternate between Democrat and Republican. The safest characterization is to say that Republicans, who had been shut out since the civil war, became a competitive force in the Deep South in the second half of the 20th century." Mauvila 01:13, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Yr R D 1964 47 44 1968 45 0 (46 Ind) 1972 93 0 1976 0 92 1980 80 12 1984 97 145 1988 97 10 1992 39 63 1996 51 51 2000 102 0 2004 106 0 2008 64 42
role of racism. If it is really true that shift from Dem to GOP was due to civil rights, shouldn't there be a more explicit note that this implies racism ? ON the other hand, perhpas the civil rights shift is part of a broader thing, eg you realy have a huge cultural divide between the liberal NY/MA/CA type areas and the south, and the civil rights act served as a catalyst. Cinnamon colbert ( talk) 12:41, 11 July 2008 (UTC) (being from boston, where there is a famous picture of an american flag being used to spear someone durign busing riots, we know that racism ain't just in the south)
The image used in this article shows states that not not match any of the lists given in the text of the article. In particular, nowhere in the text is South Carolina described as a "Deep South" state, but it's marked in red on the map. This is somewhat confusing. I would consider South Carolina to be a properly not-at-all-borderline Southern state (as opposed to, say, Kentucky and most of Florida), but I'm only a Southerner by descent and not totally aware of the distinctions. Perhaps the point is that it's meant to give you some kind of idea but that exact distinctions vary? - Aranel ("Sarah") 23:25, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
Query - I'd like to change the phrase that claims that the Miami area is "completely free of any Southern cultural influence." This seems unlikely given the pervasiveness of ethnic foods that are traditionally "Southern." It also seems unlikely that any area of the United States could totally escape the influence of any other American culture. I know anyone can edit - but I'd like to bounce it off of those of you who have more invested in this page than I do. Thoughts? Ezratrumpet 02:13, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Changed the phrase. Ezratrumpet 19:00, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I went ahead and changed that reference for Arkansas and Tennessee. It just didn't make sense. Historians have written numerous times that the border States were the current group that is now listed. How TN and AR got into that originally shows someone was asleep at the wheel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by St.GeorgesCross ( talk • contribs) 17:29, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Why is Louisiana striped...? I always considered it to be part of the Deep South. And I agree, the part about Tennessee and Arkansas being border states is pretty absurd. ArkSoutherner 17:24, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Is Texas part of the Deep South? In eastern Texas and the Dallas/Fort Worth area, the southern heritage is clearly visible. I'm not sure if it is included in this region, though.--unsigned comment by User:Stallions2010
Parts of East Texas differ very little from Mississippi and Alabama, and should probably be included in the definition "Deep South" (John Shelton Reed includes portions of it in his definition in the book "1001 Things Everyone Should Know About the South") By the way, as a bit of trivia, although it is often used in history books to refer to those 7 states which initially formed the Confederacy (South Carolina thru Texas), the term Deep South is actually of early 20th Century coinage. At first, it was used to refer to north Louisiana, Mississippi, the southern parts of Alabama and Georgia (excluded the mountainous north), and the Florida panhandle. This area was seen to be the part of the greater South where Old South and Confederate traditions lived most strongly. Later, it became expanded in scope and today generally means the 5 states from Lousisiana to South Carolina. However, as Dr. Reed says in the above mentioned book" "The Deep South is roughly coextensive with the old cotton belt, a long arc extending from eastern North Carolina thru South Carolina and west into east Texas, with extensions along the Mississippi. This area can still be defined by locating rural counties with populations more than 25% black. South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana are commonly considered the Deep South states, although parts of these states don't meet the criteria and parts of adjoining states do. Many things thought of as Southern, from alligators and spanish moss, to peculiar voting habits in 1948 and 1964 are found in their most concentrated form (sometimes only) here."
TexasReb 00:52, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Texas is greatly different than Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi or even Louisiana. With the exception of CERTAIN parts of East Texas most of Texas has its own regional identity although most of their southern characteristics were actually brought by settlers from Georgia and ALabama. This is present in much of the towns named after for their settlers former homes especially in Northeast Texas. Dallas is somewhat strange, to label it as southern is too specific it still holds elements which seperate it. For example in comparison with cities such as Birmingham or Atlanta, Dallas is pale in comparison with southern characteristics through history and culture and contributions to modern day southern culture. You must remember nearly all of the south was a backwood conservative region for most of the 60's and 70's while Texas and Florida prospered. Atlanta's growth which has been truly expansive and miraculous only started in the late eighties but also we are seeing much of Atlanta losing its southern heritage. Most of us remember the Forsyth county which dominated the media about a decade ago, county citizen pledging they would not change and would allow any "Coloreds" to move in. Now the county has grown 117% and has a significant hispanic and black population as well as transplants from Ohio, Michigan, and New Jersey. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.131.43.11 ( talk) 05:30, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
In the intro paragraph is the phrase "post colonial expansion". perhaps this can be edited (at least, the word 'post' ought to be changed), as the actual term post-colonialism is completely unrelated to the usage of "post colonial" in this article. 71.198.153.155 00:51, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Nova Scotia, New Brunswick. Gobbletyghook. Doesn't add up...
I take exception with this:
Although Florida is geographically the southernmost state, it is sometimes excluded from the Deep South due to the large amount of Northern migration to the state that has occurred since World War II. However, parts of the state, especially the Panhandle and the northern regions can be included in the characterization, with an unofficial "Southern" line possibly "drawn" around the area near extreme northern Hillsborough County, Florida, jutting northeast to above Orlando and surrounding counties; below this line, the culture tends to be more "Northern" due to said migration...
There are plenty of Southerners and natives (I am 5th generation Manatee County native) South of Hillsborough County. Yes, we have our share of snowbirds, but so does the entire state including North Florida. (Lived there too, thank you).
Florida excluded from being called Deep South? Our boys died in the Civil War too. I don't know what transplant gave you this info on the unofficial "Southern line", but its bogus.
00:17, 23 July 2006 --magialuna 66.82.9.61 04:20, 23 July 2006 (UTC) Fix the article: rewrite to emphasize that "deep south" is a cultural definition, and, over time,the area falling under this definition changes, and, this definition is really not restricted by state boundrys, eg the flordia panhandle is deep south whereas hilton head island in south carolina might not be; research triangle park in NC is probably not "deep south" whereas most of the blue ridge mountain area is, Cinnamon colbert ( talk) 12:50, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
Florida is becoming less unique in the South, as states such as Georgia, North Carolina, and Virginia also have similar splits. 70.125.198.158 ( talk)
>>Regarding the following definition on the "article" page:
>>It appears that someone has added North Carolina to this list. I have no quarrel with this if those from the above states want to keep it. However, if that be the case, then the parenthetical phrase concerning the founding of the Confederacy needs to either be eliminated or the wording changed.
>>In fact, TEXAS was the seventh state to secede from the Union, and complete the list of those which had a hand in the initial formation of the Confederate States of America in Montomgery, Alabama. Like the rest of the "Upper South" (Virginia, Arkansas and Tennessee), North Carolina initially rejected secession and did not join up until after the incident at Ft. Sumter made the situation either/or. This is NOT intended to disparage the Tar Heel State's commitment to the Confederate cause as, on the contrary, it fought bravely and nobly. Rather, it is just to point out a factual error contained within the said definition.
>>On a related tangent, I might suggest that another criteria of Deep South be added. The new one to be made of the seven original Confederate States (South Carolina thru Texas). Although the actual term "Deep South" did not come into being until well into the 20th Century, many history books use it to refer to the above states (in that era, the designation "Lower South" was used).
>>I of course realize that few consider Texas -- as a whole -- a Deep South state today, nonetheless history books include it in their definition (albeit non-existent in the day)when referring to secession and the War. TexasReb 14:22, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
All three of these states are definitely part of the Deep South.
General Beauregard was a white Creole, not a Cajun. 69.171.160.200 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 02:07, 4 July 2010 (UTC).
Florida and Louisiana I thought of as being in the Deep South, but I have never known any one to include Texas as a state in the Deep South. ACEOREVIVED ( talk) 10:58, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
When I was stationed in Memphis in the early 1970s, I heard the term 'Mid South' used rather often, but it was used interchangeably with 'South' to refer to the region. Is this term still in use today? LorenzoB 05:11, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
The section on the Urban Deep South was a mess and I've tried to fix it a bit. I took out references to cities in Virginia, North Carolina and Tennessee. These aren't in the Deep South. In the section on communities enriched by newcomers, I replaced Jacksonville with Tampa, as more representative of this trend. Jacksonville's large military population generates some diversity but it is more representative of the Deep South's more entrenched cities which did not receive discussion in this section (though they probably should have been addressed.) Jacksonville ought to be grouped with Savannah, Charleston, Pensacola and Mobile as cities that have seen modernization and prosperity in recent years, but have more held more stubbornly to their Deep South cultural legacy than the other areas. I got the impression that this section was originally lifted from something discussing the New South in general and not focusing on the distinctiveness of the Deep South. Ftjrwrites 19:45, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Recent edits have greatly increased the amount of original research, unverifiable conclusions, uncited claims and POV. This article really needs to be overhauled with reference to published sources rather than our own understandings of this shifty term. -- Dystopos 20:44, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Urban areas in Southern states such as Atlanta, Georgia, Orlando, Miami, and Tampa, Florida, in the post-war era have also absorbed waves of migrants seeking economic opportunities and warmer climates. This migration, according to some, has diluted some distinct cultural traits of the region. Thus, they are not considered a part of the Deep South. On the other hand, the blending of diverse cultural traditions is integral to the South's distinct urban cultures, such as in New Orleans, Louisiana, Birmingham, Alabama, Mobile, Alabama, Montgomery, Alabama, and Jackson, Mississippi What is wrong with this article? Just because people move to Urban areas they are no longer Southern? Who wrote this? --
Margrave1206 (
talk) 15:32, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
An article of this length and on this subject should include multiple sources, preferably inline citations, especially for some of the characterizations and blanket statements:
While some of it is definitely true, going through the trouble of finding sources will weed out the inaccuracies, original research, and problems with POV. Altairisfar talk 01:21, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
RE: The following "definition" in the Usage of the Term section:
While the northern part of Florida is sometimes referred to as part of the "Deep South," Florida as a whole is not usually considered "Southern" by many residents of Deep South states due to the fact that 15% of Florida's population are retired people from all over the country. This is also especially apparent in coastal South Florida. Many families (especially from the Northeast) move down to Florida, and have become well-cemented into the area. This creates a cultural atmosphere very distinct from the rest of the Deep South. The culture is even further influenced by the huge Hispanic presence (20.1% of the population is Hispanic with 15.94% as White Hispanic). While Deep South states have some semblence of a Hispanic population, they are nowhere near Texas' or Florida's in size.[citation needed] This diversity occurs mainly in South Florida and Central Florida. However those native to Florida (sometimes referred to as a Florida Cracker), in many parts of the state, such as the Florida Panhandle, North Central Florida, the Florida Heartland, and parts of rural Florida, do maintain the Deep South culture.
I didn't want to remove it without consulting others. IMHO, however, while the points are well taken, it doesn't really belong under "Usage". Instead, perhaps, it could be made part of a totally seperate section concerning cultural variations within the Deep South (such as is done on the Southern United States page). That is, featuring Texas and Florida and why, today, neither are (with the exception of certain areas) really considered "Deep South"...even though they have the historical credentials. Thoughts? TexasReb ( talk) 15:55, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
I would argue that FL is not part of the deep south by any means, unless you count north west Florida as being representative of the state as a whole. A mere visit to South Florida, the Tampa Bay area, Orlando, Jacksonville, dispels any false notion of Florida as the deep south. Culturally, linguistically, and ethnically, Floridians are NOT southern by any standard and far out number those who consider themselves to be in the deep south. Of course, there are rural portions of rural central and south west FL where some populations may retain cultural and linguistic aspects usually associated with the deep south but certainly, FL is no deep south state... In fact, I would argue that FL is one of the most diverse states in the union. From its inception, FL has been a melting pot of cultures, its largest city in the 1820s when FL was sold to the United States, St. Augustine, was a melting pot...
Tampa at the turn of the century was a safe harbor for immigrants from Italy, Spain, Germany, and Cuba and this is reflected in its culture.
Congressional representation and FL's battleground status in presidential elections clearly reinforces the fact that FL is not a deep south state.
BTW, if you need proof... just spend a few days in South Beach and then try to argue that FL is a deep south state. I'm tired of people constructing this notion that FL because of its geographic location in the American south is a culturally southern state and if you need proof, go read the other articles on FL...
I propose that this article and definition be limited to north west FL and the pan handle, NOT the whole of the state of FL.-- Jutland86 ( talk) 00:04, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
they talk like yall — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.52.160.60 ( talk) 14:28, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Maybe I've missed it, but I've never heard people who live in these areas use the term "Deep South". It seems to be a term used solely by outsiders, to convey a sense of separation and "otherness". It is reminiscent of the way some used to refer to "deepest, darkest Africa". The area in question also happens to have the largest concentration of black residents of any part of the country. I'm not sure how all of this fits together, but I think this term, beloved by the media and elites on the coasts, is the product of a noxious stew of condescension, bigotry, and perhaps even veiled racism. The "Deep South" sounds like some kind of dark, mysterious jungle you're afraid to venture into, where the inhabitants are probably primitive and dangerous. I cannot help but think that the intent of those who use this term is (consciously or unconsciously) pejorative and derogatory.
The US Supreme Court used the term in 1888 ["They developed primarily in the Deep South to..."} see link Rjensen ( talk) 18:05, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
I thought that Virginia and West Virginia were in the Deep South - the article does not seem to mention these states. ACEOREVIVED ( talk) 14:00, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
Not sure where to add this, but it seems as if this map < http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=File:Census-2000-Data-Top-US-Ancestries-by-County.svg&page=1 suggests that the claim that "People of English ancestry traditionally predominate in every part of the Deep South except for southern Louisiana.[3]" might need some nuancing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.228.202.147 ( talk) 19:55, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
I agree with 82.228.202.147. "Predominate" can mean "to hold advantage in numbers" or "to exert controlling power". It is too ambiguous in context: "People of English ancestry traditionally predominate in every part of the Deep South except for southern Louisiana." Noillirt ( talk) 08:56, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
"People of English ancestry traditionally predominate in every part of the Deep South except for southern Louisiana" my eye. Unless Africa was somehow part of England during the colonial period. the Black Belt runs right through the deep south, and as anyone who has every actually been there knows much of it is > 50% african american. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.133.160.189 ( talk) 18:50, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
Shading Arkansas the same as New York and California is misinformed and misinforming. If whoever did so does not want to consider Arkansas part of the Deep South, at least color it as a border state. If the state voted for George Wallace and the people in it say y'all, and if it had a Democratic governor who stood in a schoolhouse door to stop Blacks from enrolling, it's definitely Deep South or pretty close. Observe too that, when the University of Arkansas athletic programs left the old and now defunct Southwest Conference, they went into the SEC, not the Big 8. Keeping Arkansas out of the Deep South and the border states ignores the state's history, culture, and love of catfish and barbecue. Rammer ( talk) 22:48, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
a charter member of the original 7 state Confederacy (that is, those which seceded before the start of the War and initially formed it), which is the reason of Texas and Florida to be colored (albeit of a different shade of red to offset them as whole states from the modern-day definition).
Based on something that Rjensen mentioned -- and a more careful reading on my part -- as to the topic in the source cited, I am going to make a slight revision in that section. I apologize for my original mis-interpretation, and hope to correct it. TexasReb ( talk) 22:35, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
As a non-US reader, the lead image is confusing. This is for two reasons. The difference between the red colours is not sufficiently great enouch. One of them could be changed to greeen, blue, yellow, whatever. The second confusion is the states that are indicated. I have never thought of Florida as being Deep South. Perhaps I am incorrect, but if the modern perception is that it is not, Florida (and other states} should not be highlighted. If they are involved in the article in some other way (e.g. confederate states), then a further image in the relevant place could show this. This lead image must be clearer because some readers might look at the image only and not want to delve into the text for further details to explain it.__ DrChrissy ( talk) 09:27, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
The article does not have much to say on the economic history or the current state of economy of the region.Thanks. Jonathansammy ( talk) 14:27, 26 May 2017 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect The dirty dirty. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Hog Farm ( talk) 02:38, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
Should the further reading section contain references about the Black Belt?
Background:
At
Talk:Black Belt (geological formation)#Content Seems to Conflict with Sources
and
Talk:Black Belt (geological formation)#Obsolete term?
there was a consensus that the term "black belt" is not in common usage the way phrases like "sun belt" and "rust belt" are used and is not a commonly-used phase today outside of
physical geography.
The page was renamed from
Black Belt (U.S. region) to
Black Belt (geological formation) without objection.
Rjensen ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) then created Black Belt in the American South which, while not a phrase that is in common use the way "bible belt" is, is clearly used by enough sources to justify a Wikipedia article.
Rjensen then inserted content into Deep South referring to the page he created [1] and inserted multiple references to the black belt into the further reading section of Deep South article. [2] [3]
The question before us is whether material about the black belt but not about the deep south should be retained to the further reading section of the deep south article. RfC relisted by Cunard ( talk) at 00:01, 3 May 2020 (UTC). RfC relisted by Cunard ( talk) at 22:53, 21 March 2020 (UTC). -- Guy Macon ( talk) 15:46, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
...== "Black Belt" hyperlink leads to incorrect location ==
Hello - There's a hyperlink in this article attached to the term "Black Belt" (which is used in the article in a social/political/demographic sense) that leads to an article on the geological term "Black Belt", which is obviously nothing to do with this topic. Sorry, I don't know if I am able to edit this article, and I don't want to mess with it myself as I'm not that tech savvy. Cheers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8084:20E3:7700:1960:1C74:7A34:4B17 ( talk) 13:02, 23 April 2020 (UTC)There's a discrepancy for the second graphic. The subtext ("Southern Black Belt counties with an African-American population of 30% or higher in 2000.") versus the details of the graphic ("Southern US counties that were at least 40% Black or African American in the 2000 Census.") versus the CC license ("File:Southern counties with a majority African-American population in 2000.png"). -- Which is it, and what best matches the article text?
Also, is there more current data? Gprobins ( talk) 14:03, 25 April 2021 (UTC).
@ ससलल 154.84.165.75 ( talk) 21:40, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Author is sidestepping proper journalism by 'faking' citations that do not lead to authentic references but to more - what may not be called otherwise - than spin and propaganda. Cleanup necessitated.
Previously I had posted a lengthy explanation of why I thought the article was misleading. However, after further reflection, I was able to make some small changes that addressed most of my concerns. There does seem to have been a problem with an earlier editor drawing on a source to define "Deep South" that used the "Deep South" label as a sort of arbitrary category, so that states were included or excluded for reasons that have little to do with the original meaning of the term. I suspect there are remnants of that in the article, but I've doctored it enough that I believe it is essentially accurate now. Ftjrwrites ( talk) 14:06, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
nothing about the reputation (whether fair or not) the deep south has? Saccerzd 16:26, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
For optional guidelines on contributing see WikiProject U.S. regions
"In presidential elections, the Deep South has tended to vote for the Republican candidate since 1964, the most notable exception being the third party campaign of governor of Alabama George Wallace in 1968." I think this is innacurate. This ignores Jimmy Carter in 1976. Bill Clinton also carried most of the "Deep South" in 1992, and a smaller part in 1996. Overall, I think it is too weak to categorize as a trend (although wait 20 years and it will probably be a safe call). State legislatures in the "Deep South" are generally dominated by Democrats, often with a Dem:Rep ratio of 2:1. The governors of these states tend to alternate between Democrat and Republican. The safest characterization is to say that Republicans, who had been shut out since the civil war, became a competitive force in the Deep South in the second half of the 20th century." Mauvila 01:13, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Yr R D 1964 47 44 1968 45 0 (46 Ind) 1972 93 0 1976 0 92 1980 80 12 1984 97 145 1988 97 10 1992 39 63 1996 51 51 2000 102 0 2004 106 0 2008 64 42
role of racism. If it is really true that shift from Dem to GOP was due to civil rights, shouldn't there be a more explicit note that this implies racism ? ON the other hand, perhpas the civil rights shift is part of a broader thing, eg you realy have a huge cultural divide between the liberal NY/MA/CA type areas and the south, and the civil rights act served as a catalyst. Cinnamon colbert ( talk) 12:41, 11 July 2008 (UTC) (being from boston, where there is a famous picture of an american flag being used to spear someone durign busing riots, we know that racism ain't just in the south)
The image used in this article shows states that not not match any of the lists given in the text of the article. In particular, nowhere in the text is South Carolina described as a "Deep South" state, but it's marked in red on the map. This is somewhat confusing. I would consider South Carolina to be a properly not-at-all-borderline Southern state (as opposed to, say, Kentucky and most of Florida), but I'm only a Southerner by descent and not totally aware of the distinctions. Perhaps the point is that it's meant to give you some kind of idea but that exact distinctions vary? - Aranel ("Sarah") 23:25, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
Query - I'd like to change the phrase that claims that the Miami area is "completely free of any Southern cultural influence." This seems unlikely given the pervasiveness of ethnic foods that are traditionally "Southern." It also seems unlikely that any area of the United States could totally escape the influence of any other American culture. I know anyone can edit - but I'd like to bounce it off of those of you who have more invested in this page than I do. Thoughts? Ezratrumpet 02:13, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Changed the phrase. Ezratrumpet 19:00, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I went ahead and changed that reference for Arkansas and Tennessee. It just didn't make sense. Historians have written numerous times that the border States were the current group that is now listed. How TN and AR got into that originally shows someone was asleep at the wheel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by St.GeorgesCross ( talk • contribs) 17:29, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Why is Louisiana striped...? I always considered it to be part of the Deep South. And I agree, the part about Tennessee and Arkansas being border states is pretty absurd. ArkSoutherner 17:24, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Is Texas part of the Deep South? In eastern Texas and the Dallas/Fort Worth area, the southern heritage is clearly visible. I'm not sure if it is included in this region, though.--unsigned comment by User:Stallions2010
Parts of East Texas differ very little from Mississippi and Alabama, and should probably be included in the definition "Deep South" (John Shelton Reed includes portions of it in his definition in the book "1001 Things Everyone Should Know About the South") By the way, as a bit of trivia, although it is often used in history books to refer to those 7 states which initially formed the Confederacy (South Carolina thru Texas), the term Deep South is actually of early 20th Century coinage. At first, it was used to refer to north Louisiana, Mississippi, the southern parts of Alabama and Georgia (excluded the mountainous north), and the Florida panhandle. This area was seen to be the part of the greater South where Old South and Confederate traditions lived most strongly. Later, it became expanded in scope and today generally means the 5 states from Lousisiana to South Carolina. However, as Dr. Reed says in the above mentioned book" "The Deep South is roughly coextensive with the old cotton belt, a long arc extending from eastern North Carolina thru South Carolina and west into east Texas, with extensions along the Mississippi. This area can still be defined by locating rural counties with populations more than 25% black. South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana are commonly considered the Deep South states, although parts of these states don't meet the criteria and parts of adjoining states do. Many things thought of as Southern, from alligators and spanish moss, to peculiar voting habits in 1948 and 1964 are found in their most concentrated form (sometimes only) here."
TexasReb 00:52, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Texas is greatly different than Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi or even Louisiana. With the exception of CERTAIN parts of East Texas most of Texas has its own regional identity although most of their southern characteristics were actually brought by settlers from Georgia and ALabama. This is present in much of the towns named after for their settlers former homes especially in Northeast Texas. Dallas is somewhat strange, to label it as southern is too specific it still holds elements which seperate it. For example in comparison with cities such as Birmingham or Atlanta, Dallas is pale in comparison with southern characteristics through history and culture and contributions to modern day southern culture. You must remember nearly all of the south was a backwood conservative region for most of the 60's and 70's while Texas and Florida prospered. Atlanta's growth which has been truly expansive and miraculous only started in the late eighties but also we are seeing much of Atlanta losing its southern heritage. Most of us remember the Forsyth county which dominated the media about a decade ago, county citizen pledging they would not change and would allow any "Coloreds" to move in. Now the county has grown 117% and has a significant hispanic and black population as well as transplants from Ohio, Michigan, and New Jersey. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.131.43.11 ( talk) 05:30, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
In the intro paragraph is the phrase "post colonial expansion". perhaps this can be edited (at least, the word 'post' ought to be changed), as the actual term post-colonialism is completely unrelated to the usage of "post colonial" in this article. 71.198.153.155 00:51, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Nova Scotia, New Brunswick. Gobbletyghook. Doesn't add up...
I take exception with this:
Although Florida is geographically the southernmost state, it is sometimes excluded from the Deep South due to the large amount of Northern migration to the state that has occurred since World War II. However, parts of the state, especially the Panhandle and the northern regions can be included in the characterization, with an unofficial "Southern" line possibly "drawn" around the area near extreme northern Hillsborough County, Florida, jutting northeast to above Orlando and surrounding counties; below this line, the culture tends to be more "Northern" due to said migration...
There are plenty of Southerners and natives (I am 5th generation Manatee County native) South of Hillsborough County. Yes, we have our share of snowbirds, but so does the entire state including North Florida. (Lived there too, thank you).
Florida excluded from being called Deep South? Our boys died in the Civil War too. I don't know what transplant gave you this info on the unofficial "Southern line", but its bogus.
00:17, 23 July 2006 --magialuna 66.82.9.61 04:20, 23 July 2006 (UTC) Fix the article: rewrite to emphasize that "deep south" is a cultural definition, and, over time,the area falling under this definition changes, and, this definition is really not restricted by state boundrys, eg the flordia panhandle is deep south whereas hilton head island in south carolina might not be; research triangle park in NC is probably not "deep south" whereas most of the blue ridge mountain area is, Cinnamon colbert ( talk) 12:50, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
Florida is becoming less unique in the South, as states such as Georgia, North Carolina, and Virginia also have similar splits. 70.125.198.158 ( talk)
>>Regarding the following definition on the "article" page:
>>It appears that someone has added North Carolina to this list. I have no quarrel with this if those from the above states want to keep it. However, if that be the case, then the parenthetical phrase concerning the founding of the Confederacy needs to either be eliminated or the wording changed.
>>In fact, TEXAS was the seventh state to secede from the Union, and complete the list of those which had a hand in the initial formation of the Confederate States of America in Montomgery, Alabama. Like the rest of the "Upper South" (Virginia, Arkansas and Tennessee), North Carolina initially rejected secession and did not join up until after the incident at Ft. Sumter made the situation either/or. This is NOT intended to disparage the Tar Heel State's commitment to the Confederate cause as, on the contrary, it fought bravely and nobly. Rather, it is just to point out a factual error contained within the said definition.
>>On a related tangent, I might suggest that another criteria of Deep South be added. The new one to be made of the seven original Confederate States (South Carolina thru Texas). Although the actual term "Deep South" did not come into being until well into the 20th Century, many history books use it to refer to the above states (in that era, the designation "Lower South" was used).
>>I of course realize that few consider Texas -- as a whole -- a Deep South state today, nonetheless history books include it in their definition (albeit non-existent in the day)when referring to secession and the War. TexasReb 14:22, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
All three of these states are definitely part of the Deep South.
General Beauregard was a white Creole, not a Cajun. 69.171.160.200 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 02:07, 4 July 2010 (UTC).
Florida and Louisiana I thought of as being in the Deep South, but I have never known any one to include Texas as a state in the Deep South. ACEOREVIVED ( talk) 10:58, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
When I was stationed in Memphis in the early 1970s, I heard the term 'Mid South' used rather often, but it was used interchangeably with 'South' to refer to the region. Is this term still in use today? LorenzoB 05:11, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
The section on the Urban Deep South was a mess and I've tried to fix it a bit. I took out references to cities in Virginia, North Carolina and Tennessee. These aren't in the Deep South. In the section on communities enriched by newcomers, I replaced Jacksonville with Tampa, as more representative of this trend. Jacksonville's large military population generates some diversity but it is more representative of the Deep South's more entrenched cities which did not receive discussion in this section (though they probably should have been addressed.) Jacksonville ought to be grouped with Savannah, Charleston, Pensacola and Mobile as cities that have seen modernization and prosperity in recent years, but have more held more stubbornly to their Deep South cultural legacy than the other areas. I got the impression that this section was originally lifted from something discussing the New South in general and not focusing on the distinctiveness of the Deep South. Ftjrwrites 19:45, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Recent edits have greatly increased the amount of original research, unverifiable conclusions, uncited claims and POV. This article really needs to be overhauled with reference to published sources rather than our own understandings of this shifty term. -- Dystopos 20:44, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Urban areas in Southern states such as Atlanta, Georgia, Orlando, Miami, and Tampa, Florida, in the post-war era have also absorbed waves of migrants seeking economic opportunities and warmer climates. This migration, according to some, has diluted some distinct cultural traits of the region. Thus, they are not considered a part of the Deep South. On the other hand, the blending of diverse cultural traditions is integral to the South's distinct urban cultures, such as in New Orleans, Louisiana, Birmingham, Alabama, Mobile, Alabama, Montgomery, Alabama, and Jackson, Mississippi What is wrong with this article? Just because people move to Urban areas they are no longer Southern? Who wrote this? --
Margrave1206 (
talk) 15:32, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
An article of this length and on this subject should include multiple sources, preferably inline citations, especially for some of the characterizations and blanket statements:
While some of it is definitely true, going through the trouble of finding sources will weed out the inaccuracies, original research, and problems with POV. Altairisfar talk 01:21, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
RE: The following "definition" in the Usage of the Term section:
While the northern part of Florida is sometimes referred to as part of the "Deep South," Florida as a whole is not usually considered "Southern" by many residents of Deep South states due to the fact that 15% of Florida's population are retired people from all over the country. This is also especially apparent in coastal South Florida. Many families (especially from the Northeast) move down to Florida, and have become well-cemented into the area. This creates a cultural atmosphere very distinct from the rest of the Deep South. The culture is even further influenced by the huge Hispanic presence (20.1% of the population is Hispanic with 15.94% as White Hispanic). While Deep South states have some semblence of a Hispanic population, they are nowhere near Texas' or Florida's in size.[citation needed] This diversity occurs mainly in South Florida and Central Florida. However those native to Florida (sometimes referred to as a Florida Cracker), in many parts of the state, such as the Florida Panhandle, North Central Florida, the Florida Heartland, and parts of rural Florida, do maintain the Deep South culture.
I didn't want to remove it without consulting others. IMHO, however, while the points are well taken, it doesn't really belong under "Usage". Instead, perhaps, it could be made part of a totally seperate section concerning cultural variations within the Deep South (such as is done on the Southern United States page). That is, featuring Texas and Florida and why, today, neither are (with the exception of certain areas) really considered "Deep South"...even though they have the historical credentials. Thoughts? TexasReb ( talk) 15:55, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
I would argue that FL is not part of the deep south by any means, unless you count north west Florida as being representative of the state as a whole. A mere visit to South Florida, the Tampa Bay area, Orlando, Jacksonville, dispels any false notion of Florida as the deep south. Culturally, linguistically, and ethnically, Floridians are NOT southern by any standard and far out number those who consider themselves to be in the deep south. Of course, there are rural portions of rural central and south west FL where some populations may retain cultural and linguistic aspects usually associated with the deep south but certainly, FL is no deep south state... In fact, I would argue that FL is one of the most diverse states in the union. From its inception, FL has been a melting pot of cultures, its largest city in the 1820s when FL was sold to the United States, St. Augustine, was a melting pot...
Tampa at the turn of the century was a safe harbor for immigrants from Italy, Spain, Germany, and Cuba and this is reflected in its culture.
Congressional representation and FL's battleground status in presidential elections clearly reinforces the fact that FL is not a deep south state.
BTW, if you need proof... just spend a few days in South Beach and then try to argue that FL is a deep south state. I'm tired of people constructing this notion that FL because of its geographic location in the American south is a culturally southern state and if you need proof, go read the other articles on FL...
I propose that this article and definition be limited to north west FL and the pan handle, NOT the whole of the state of FL.-- Jutland86 ( talk) 00:04, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
they talk like yall — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.52.160.60 ( talk) 14:28, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Maybe I've missed it, but I've never heard people who live in these areas use the term "Deep South". It seems to be a term used solely by outsiders, to convey a sense of separation and "otherness". It is reminiscent of the way some used to refer to "deepest, darkest Africa". The area in question also happens to have the largest concentration of black residents of any part of the country. I'm not sure how all of this fits together, but I think this term, beloved by the media and elites on the coasts, is the product of a noxious stew of condescension, bigotry, and perhaps even veiled racism. The "Deep South" sounds like some kind of dark, mysterious jungle you're afraid to venture into, where the inhabitants are probably primitive and dangerous. I cannot help but think that the intent of those who use this term is (consciously or unconsciously) pejorative and derogatory.
The US Supreme Court used the term in 1888 ["They developed primarily in the Deep South to..."} see link Rjensen ( talk) 18:05, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
I thought that Virginia and West Virginia were in the Deep South - the article does not seem to mention these states. ACEOREVIVED ( talk) 14:00, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
Not sure where to add this, but it seems as if this map < http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=File:Census-2000-Data-Top-US-Ancestries-by-County.svg&page=1 suggests that the claim that "People of English ancestry traditionally predominate in every part of the Deep South except for southern Louisiana.[3]" might need some nuancing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.228.202.147 ( talk) 19:55, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
I agree with 82.228.202.147. "Predominate" can mean "to hold advantage in numbers" or "to exert controlling power". It is too ambiguous in context: "People of English ancestry traditionally predominate in every part of the Deep South except for southern Louisiana." Noillirt ( talk) 08:56, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
"People of English ancestry traditionally predominate in every part of the Deep South except for southern Louisiana" my eye. Unless Africa was somehow part of England during the colonial period. the Black Belt runs right through the deep south, and as anyone who has every actually been there knows much of it is > 50% african american. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.133.160.189 ( talk) 18:50, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
Shading Arkansas the same as New York and California is misinformed and misinforming. If whoever did so does not want to consider Arkansas part of the Deep South, at least color it as a border state. If the state voted for George Wallace and the people in it say y'all, and if it had a Democratic governor who stood in a schoolhouse door to stop Blacks from enrolling, it's definitely Deep South or pretty close. Observe too that, when the University of Arkansas athletic programs left the old and now defunct Southwest Conference, they went into the SEC, not the Big 8. Keeping Arkansas out of the Deep South and the border states ignores the state's history, culture, and love of catfish and barbecue. Rammer ( talk) 22:48, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
a charter member of the original 7 state Confederacy (that is, those which seceded before the start of the War and initially formed it), which is the reason of Texas and Florida to be colored (albeit of a different shade of red to offset them as whole states from the modern-day definition).
Based on something that Rjensen mentioned -- and a more careful reading on my part -- as to the topic in the source cited, I am going to make a slight revision in that section. I apologize for my original mis-interpretation, and hope to correct it. TexasReb ( talk) 22:35, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
As a non-US reader, the lead image is confusing. This is for two reasons. The difference between the red colours is not sufficiently great enouch. One of them could be changed to greeen, blue, yellow, whatever. The second confusion is the states that are indicated. I have never thought of Florida as being Deep South. Perhaps I am incorrect, but if the modern perception is that it is not, Florida (and other states} should not be highlighted. If they are involved in the article in some other way (e.g. confederate states), then a further image in the relevant place could show this. This lead image must be clearer because some readers might look at the image only and not want to delve into the text for further details to explain it.__ DrChrissy ( talk) 09:27, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
The article does not have much to say on the economic history or the current state of economy of the region.Thanks. Jonathansammy ( talk) 14:27, 26 May 2017 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect The dirty dirty. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Hog Farm ( talk) 02:38, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
Should the further reading section contain references about the Black Belt?
Background:
At
Talk:Black Belt (geological formation)#Content Seems to Conflict with Sources
and
Talk:Black Belt (geological formation)#Obsolete term?
there was a consensus that the term "black belt" is not in common usage the way phrases like "sun belt" and "rust belt" are used and is not a commonly-used phase today outside of
physical geography.
The page was renamed from
Black Belt (U.S. region) to
Black Belt (geological formation) without objection.
Rjensen ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) then created Black Belt in the American South which, while not a phrase that is in common use the way "bible belt" is, is clearly used by enough sources to justify a Wikipedia article.
Rjensen then inserted content into Deep South referring to the page he created [1] and inserted multiple references to the black belt into the further reading section of Deep South article. [2] [3]
The question before us is whether material about the black belt but not about the deep south should be retained to the further reading section of the deep south article. RfC relisted by Cunard ( talk) at 00:01, 3 May 2020 (UTC). RfC relisted by Cunard ( talk) at 22:53, 21 March 2020 (UTC). -- Guy Macon ( talk) 15:46, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
...== "Black Belt" hyperlink leads to incorrect location ==
Hello - There's a hyperlink in this article attached to the term "Black Belt" (which is used in the article in a social/political/demographic sense) that leads to an article on the geological term "Black Belt", which is obviously nothing to do with this topic. Sorry, I don't know if I am able to edit this article, and I don't want to mess with it myself as I'm not that tech savvy. Cheers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8084:20E3:7700:1960:1C74:7A34:4B17 ( talk) 13:02, 23 April 2020 (UTC)There's a discrepancy for the second graphic. The subtext ("Southern Black Belt counties with an African-American population of 30% or higher in 2000.") versus the details of the graphic ("Southern US counties that were at least 40% Black or African American in the 2000 Census.") versus the CC license ("File:Southern counties with a majority African-American population in 2000.png"). -- Which is it, and what best matches the article text?
Also, is there more current data? Gprobins ( talk) 14:03, 25 April 2021 (UTC).
@ ससलल 154.84.165.75 ( talk) 21:40, 24 November 2023 (UTC)