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There are some controversy in names:
Could somebody clarify these issues? Also I think, that tones should be included for the name, e.g., in hanyu pinyin-style. Cmapm 13:18, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I noticed this article because it just became a featured article, but I missed it while it was a candidate. I would have made these requests then had I seen it. I know nothing about the topic, so I think I can bring a valuable fresh set of eyes to the article. Specifically the intro is very hard to understand if you don't already know the subject. The biggest problem is the sentence structure in the first paragraph and the fact that I can't find anywhere in the lead or the article that states how long these people were independent or what successors if any they had. If there is simply no information on that that can be noted too. Not mentioning how long the people lasted as a group seems like a major oversight. As to the lead section here is how it reads to me:
The sentence structure starting "following the travels..." makes it really hard to tell what is going on. They are a people in Central Asia following the travels of Zhang Qian? Did they exist before 130BCE? After? Are there any sources about them besides the Chinese? There are a lot of great things in the article so don't get me wrong. The above issues just make it hard for a novice to access. - Taxman 20:26, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)
Personally, I find the notation of Ta-Yuan (English?) and Da Wan (han yu pin yin) very confusing. It's similar to the notation for Yun Tun (han yu pin yin) and Wanton (English: similar to chinese dumplings). Perhaps someone who is well read into this area of knowledge comment about the phrase "...suggested that...“Yuan” was simply a transliteration of the words “Yona”, or “Yavana”, used throughout antiquity in Asia to designate Greeks (“Ionians”), so that Ta-Yuan (lit. “Great Yuan”) would mean "Great Ionians"." This is because in Chinese, Da literally means big and it may be infered to be some what similar to great. Similarily, the wikipedia article about Tofu (Doufu) may also be refered by some as TouFu (Wade-Giles); as to Ta Yuan, Da Yuan, Da Wan. I'm confusing right? --Glisteringwaters 17:18, Nov 22, 2005
{{“2 The sons[a] of Japheth:
Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshek and Tiras.”|Genesis/ 10/2}} Kiss de Băbeni ( talk) 18:19, 3 January 2019 (UTC) Kiss de Băbeni ( talk) 18:19, 3 January 2019 (UTC) Kiss de Băbeni ( talk) 18:19, 3 January 2019 (UTC) Kiss de Băbeni ( talk) 18:19, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
Great article! But reading it I became curious about what language the people spoke. I guess it could have been Ancient Greek or some such, but maybe not. If the Ta-Yan language is known, I think the article should mention what it was. And if it isn't known, state so. Shanes 01:30, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
I am disturbed by the text "urbanized dwellers with Indo-European features" in the article.
"Indo-European" is a linguistic term, and is confusing and inappropriate in referring to people. Did they appear European, Indian, or something else?
The Wikipedia article on Indo-European notes that the term has been extended to cultures and religions, but does not (I'm glad to say) suggest an ethnic application.
"Proto Indo-European" could reasonably be used to designate a people, but is not relevant here by several millennia.
I recommend that the word be changed to either 'Caucasian', or if that term is felt to be dubious, 'European'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ColinFine ( talk • contribs) 12:28, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
Thanks to whoever reversed the changes from the porn prank. I didn't know how to do it and was in the middle of trying to just remove the picture Liastnir 14:56, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
The article states that wine was introduced by the TaYuan after Zhang Qian's visit (in the Han dynasty). But wine has been in China since at least the Shang dynasty (and as far back as the early neolithic, if the recent analysis of those Jiahu vessels is correct). I propose deletion of the statement until a clarification is given. UPDATE: I have commented out that bit so it can be viewed in edit mode. It's in the "Caucasian traits" section.
-- SohanDsouza 23:30, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Wait a sec. Firstly, it is historical fact, not a research topic, that wine has been in China since the Shang and a while before as well [3] [4]. The idea that the neolithics of Jiahu had wine is a more recent contention [5].
Does the Shiji state that the grape or grape wine was brought to China, or that any kind of wine was brought to China? Wine can be made from materials other than grapes, you know. The quote you provided would seem to indicate that it was grapes or grape wine, not wine. That was the clarification I sought.
UPDATE: I have reorganized that area. The Shiji clearly states that grapes and alfalfa were the transmissions, not wine. Other sources corroborate that grapes were just introduced at the time.
This article requires major cleanup. YueZhi is sometimes spelt Yueh-Chih, sometimes Yuezhi, sometimes Yue-Chi. This is just one of the inconsistencies in the artice. -- SohanDsouza 00:04, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
I have often wondered about the statement in the article that: "It has also been suggested that the name “Yuan” was simply a transliteration of the words “Yona”, or “Yavana”, used throughout antiquity in Asia to designate Greeks (“Ionians”), so that Dayuan (lit. “Great Yuan”) would mean "Great Ionians"."
Can anyone please give me a reference for this statement? Many thanks, John Hill 03:27, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Naturally I agree with those who have said that Ta-yuan does not mean 'the great land of the Yavanas'; it is enough that the Ch'ien-han-shu knows of a 'little Yuan', Siao-yuan, in the Tarim basin, which had nothing to do with Greeks.
— W. W. Tarn, The Greeks in Bactria and India (1938), p. 474
References
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 15:11, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
Over at the Wikipedia:Reference desk/Miscellaneous we have been asked a question for which we don't have a ready answer. I have posted it below in the hope that somebody here can help... Alansplodge ( talk) 22:19, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 09:37, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
Dayuan is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed. | |||||||||||||
This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on November 22, 2005. | |||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
Current status: Former featured article |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
There are some controversy in names:
Could somebody clarify these issues? Also I think, that tones should be included for the name, e.g., in hanyu pinyin-style. Cmapm 13:18, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I noticed this article because it just became a featured article, but I missed it while it was a candidate. I would have made these requests then had I seen it. I know nothing about the topic, so I think I can bring a valuable fresh set of eyes to the article. Specifically the intro is very hard to understand if you don't already know the subject. The biggest problem is the sentence structure in the first paragraph and the fact that I can't find anywhere in the lead or the article that states how long these people were independent or what successors if any they had. If there is simply no information on that that can be noted too. Not mentioning how long the people lasted as a group seems like a major oversight. As to the lead section here is how it reads to me:
The sentence structure starting "following the travels..." makes it really hard to tell what is going on. They are a people in Central Asia following the travels of Zhang Qian? Did they exist before 130BCE? After? Are there any sources about them besides the Chinese? There are a lot of great things in the article so don't get me wrong. The above issues just make it hard for a novice to access. - Taxman 20:26, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)
Personally, I find the notation of Ta-Yuan (English?) and Da Wan (han yu pin yin) very confusing. It's similar to the notation for Yun Tun (han yu pin yin) and Wanton (English: similar to chinese dumplings). Perhaps someone who is well read into this area of knowledge comment about the phrase "...suggested that...“Yuan” was simply a transliteration of the words “Yona”, or “Yavana”, used throughout antiquity in Asia to designate Greeks (“Ionians”), so that Ta-Yuan (lit. “Great Yuan”) would mean "Great Ionians"." This is because in Chinese, Da literally means big and it may be infered to be some what similar to great. Similarily, the wikipedia article about Tofu (Doufu) may also be refered by some as TouFu (Wade-Giles); as to Ta Yuan, Da Yuan, Da Wan. I'm confusing right? --Glisteringwaters 17:18, Nov 22, 2005
{{“2 The sons[a] of Japheth:
Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshek and Tiras.”|Genesis/ 10/2}} Kiss de Băbeni ( talk) 18:19, 3 January 2019 (UTC) Kiss de Băbeni ( talk) 18:19, 3 January 2019 (UTC) Kiss de Băbeni ( talk) 18:19, 3 January 2019 (UTC) Kiss de Băbeni ( talk) 18:19, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
Great article! But reading it I became curious about what language the people spoke. I guess it could have been Ancient Greek or some such, but maybe not. If the Ta-Yan language is known, I think the article should mention what it was. And if it isn't known, state so. Shanes 01:30, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
I am disturbed by the text "urbanized dwellers with Indo-European features" in the article.
"Indo-European" is a linguistic term, and is confusing and inappropriate in referring to people. Did they appear European, Indian, or something else?
The Wikipedia article on Indo-European notes that the term has been extended to cultures and religions, but does not (I'm glad to say) suggest an ethnic application.
"Proto Indo-European" could reasonably be used to designate a people, but is not relevant here by several millennia.
I recommend that the word be changed to either 'Caucasian', or if that term is felt to be dubious, 'European'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ColinFine ( talk • contribs) 12:28, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
Thanks to whoever reversed the changes from the porn prank. I didn't know how to do it and was in the middle of trying to just remove the picture Liastnir 14:56, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
The article states that wine was introduced by the TaYuan after Zhang Qian's visit (in the Han dynasty). But wine has been in China since at least the Shang dynasty (and as far back as the early neolithic, if the recent analysis of those Jiahu vessels is correct). I propose deletion of the statement until a clarification is given. UPDATE: I have commented out that bit so it can be viewed in edit mode. It's in the "Caucasian traits" section.
-- SohanDsouza 23:30, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Wait a sec. Firstly, it is historical fact, not a research topic, that wine has been in China since the Shang and a while before as well [3] [4]. The idea that the neolithics of Jiahu had wine is a more recent contention [5].
Does the Shiji state that the grape or grape wine was brought to China, or that any kind of wine was brought to China? Wine can be made from materials other than grapes, you know. The quote you provided would seem to indicate that it was grapes or grape wine, not wine. That was the clarification I sought.
UPDATE: I have reorganized that area. The Shiji clearly states that grapes and alfalfa were the transmissions, not wine. Other sources corroborate that grapes were just introduced at the time.
This article requires major cleanup. YueZhi is sometimes spelt Yueh-Chih, sometimes Yuezhi, sometimes Yue-Chi. This is just one of the inconsistencies in the artice. -- SohanDsouza 00:04, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
I have often wondered about the statement in the article that: "It has also been suggested that the name “Yuan” was simply a transliteration of the words “Yona”, or “Yavana”, used throughout antiquity in Asia to designate Greeks (“Ionians”), so that Dayuan (lit. “Great Yuan”) would mean "Great Ionians"."
Can anyone please give me a reference for this statement? Many thanks, John Hill 03:27, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Naturally I agree with those who have said that Ta-yuan does not mean 'the great land of the Yavanas'; it is enough that the Ch'ien-han-shu knows of a 'little Yuan', Siao-yuan, in the Tarim basin, which had nothing to do with Greeks.
— W. W. Tarn, The Greeks in Bactria and India (1938), p. 474
References
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Dayuan. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
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have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 15:11, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
Over at the Wikipedia:Reference desk/Miscellaneous we have been asked a question for which we don't have a ready answer. I have posted it below in the hope that somebody here can help... Alansplodge ( talk) 22:19, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 09:37, 11 May 2020 (UTC)