This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
A fact from Dark Was the Night, Cold Was the Ground appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 10 January 2010 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
|
I doubt this qualifies as a notable enough mention to warrant an entry in the article, but this song is featured in The West Wing episode " The Warfare of Genghis Khan" and is used to show Josh Lyman how important space exploration can be. Staxringold talk contribs 23:02, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
I have read the NYT article that is cited. It does not mention Carl Sagan at all. The words are those of the article's writer, Nicole Krauss. However, even if they were the words of Carl Sagan, he is not an authority on music (and thus his opinion is not notable), and, in addition to that, the article fails to state that it is his opinion, asserting it as a universal truth, which is obviously unacceptable. Make your counterarguments here; To argue through edits back and forth would violate the 3RR. If I don't get any responses in 24 hours (you guys seem to be pretty active), I'm removing the piece, and if it is placed back after that, I'm calling in an admin to look at this. Thanks. Dfsghjkgfhdg ( talk) 15:31, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
The introductory paragraph ends by stating the following:
"It has the distinction of being one of 27 samples of music included on the Voyager Golden Record, launched into space in 1977 to represent the diversity of life on Earth. "Dark Was the Night, Cold Was the Ground" was chosen as the human expression of loneliness."
The source cited only has the article's writer presenting that opinion with no reference to the team ever saying such. The argument is over whether or not she is an authority to make this claim and whether she can be cited for this claim (for the purposes of this article). Discussion above. Dfsghjkgfhdg ( talk) 16:57, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
The DWTN page reads like a biography of Johnson. The Johnson page is 1/3 info about DWTN. So... merge or swap info?-- Atlantictire ( talk) 00:43, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
Atlantictire, I can appreciate you spent time making these edits, but they were not good edits. By purging Blind Willie Johnson's article of the chunk of text and not paying attention to this article, you inserted information that was already covered (the information about Ry Cooder was duplicated, repeated information one sentence above about the Voyager Golden Record), was not cited, or cited to an unworkable link.
You also split paragraphs that were more readable, cohesive, and well-written for no reason. You created sections where none needed to be created. This article was quite fine really, but you did what I feared you would. You added the purged information from Johnson's article without reading about his life. Just a quick night's work, right?
Blind Willie Johnson deserves a better article. It's there where you should be doing the work. Go to the library, read about his life, use the best sources you can find and improve it. Spend some time rewriting his. -- Moni3 ( talk) 03:00, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
Pier Paolo Pasolini, like Wenders, is a major director who considers music as important as any other element of his films. The soundtrack for The Gospel According to St. Matthew (i.e. the one with DWTN on it) was nominated for an Oscar. Scroll down to 1966. It won the Special Jury Prize (that's like second place) at the Venice Film Festival.
Also a screen-writer, Pasolini co-wrote the scripts for Fellini’s La Dolce Vita and Nights of Cabiria. His film adaptation fot the Arabian Nights won the Grand Prix at the Cannes Film Festival. Huge influence on Martin Scorsese. St. Mattew greatly informed Scorsese’s Last Temptation of Christ. Here is what Scorsese says about film.
Kronos Quartet is a 37 year old string quartet. Won a Grammy for Different Trains. Nominated for You’ve Stolen My Heart: Songs From R.D. Burman's Bollywood with Asha Bhosle.
Performs conventional modern classical music as well as jazz, world music, folk and even rock. Collaborates with major composures such as Philip Glass (please tell me you know who that is), Terry Riley, Henryk Górecki, Steve Reich. Has performed and recorded with Modern Jazz Quartet, David Byrne, Tom Waits, David Bowie, Nine Inch Nails, Amon Tobin, and lots, lots more.
Dance companies that have used Kronos' music: Merce Cunningham, Paul Taylor, Twyla Tharp, and Eiko & Koma. Composed and recorded soundtracks for Requiem for a Dream, The Fountain, 21 Grams, True Stories.
Performs in the world’s major concert halls.
If the wikipedia links don’t confirm this info, the Kronos website will.
Maybe you disagree, but I'd say recognition of "Dark as the Night, Cold as the Ground" by these artists is absolutely the sort of thing that confirms the song's status as a great work of art.-- Atlantictire ( talk) 20:36, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
Try as I might, I could not find anything in the Obrecht article about Blind Willie Johnson being forgotten by all but guitar enthusiasts or about Davies introducing Johnson to R&B musicians. The article says, "Rev. Gary Davis copied Johnson's records and taught his music to up-and-coming New York folkies in the '60s." Also, by the 1960s "R&B" meant stuff like Ray Charles and Marvin Gaye (R&B hits of 1963 and 1968). If you can find evidence for those assertions, feel free to put them back in. There was something in the All Music guide about Davis being enormously popular and respected within the New York folk scene so I briefly mentioned that.-- Atlantictire ( talk) 06:48, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
I edited the Musicians and writers section so that it's arranged like this: 1. Johnson revivival 2. musicians who have covered DWTN 3. musicians who have said nice things about DWTN 4. writers who have said nice things about DWTN. Obviously, there's a major gap between Fairport and Kronos. I'd like to add something about Cooder (non-Paris, Texas related) and Marc Ribot. They may be all that's necessary. I seriously have not been able to find other musicians who have covered the song that aren't way small time.
Fairport was a very influential British band that included Richard Thompson. Hugely important guitarist and songwriter. So glad I was able to find a reference for that fact.-- Atlantictire ( talk) 07:39, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
Anyway.
I guess my point is if you don’t like how something sounds then change it. No need to accompany the edit with a dubious grammatical reprimand. I’ll probably only object if the change results in an unambiguous factual error or if with the edit, as I may now illustrate, the syntax becomes so spectacularly contorted the sentence could find work with Canada-based performance troupe, Cirque du Soleil.
I thought I'd mention that the review of Johnson in The Bookman was by Edward Abbe Niles. He was a leading exponent of the blues and there's tons written about and ref erencing him. A prefab wikipedia article, if you ask me. Also, Obrecht got the name of the journal wrong. It's " The Bookman". He was probably thrown off by how Niles is referred to as Bookman critic Edward Abbe Niles, same as the music critic for The New Yorker is New Yorker critic Sasha Frere Jones.
Finally, Louis Armstrong's " Melancholy Blues" is on the Golden Record, so this isn't true: "Johnson's intonation of poverty, class disparity, and alienation is unique to the project; no other sounds representing a negative human experience were chosen for the record." -- Atlantictire ( talk) 09:48, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
If you're worried the Humphrey Great Depression link looks a bit rinky-dink, the same guy who wrote the chapter cited in the Cohn book wrote the content of that page. It's a transcription of soundtrack liner notes from the PBS doc The Great Depression.
I'm pretty thrilled about the Sacred Harp connection. (edit: ok, so the book calls it "fasola". A lot of people see these terms as interchangeable, but fasola is a little more inclusive than Sacred Harp). The commonalities between shape note/fasola/Sacred Harp singing and lining-out are absolutely facinating. Two sides of the same tradition: hymn-based sacred music for the poor and illiterate.-- Atlantictire ( talk) 00:22, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
Deleted sentence about Voyager record that was factually incorrect. Deleted info about BWJ's blindness and the specific circumstances of his death that is more suited to the bio page and is covered there. Since this is an article about the song, and overview is fine. If people want to know why he went blind, they can go to the BWJ page.-- Atlantictire ( talk) 00:50, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
Multiple sources show Johnson and Smith sold on Columbia as well as Vocalion. However, the only source I could find for the sales figures fact was a website run by a blues dj named Jeff Harris.-- Atlantictire ( talk) 11:33, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
I'm of the mind that, when you're talking about the legacy of a work of art, the ways in which it has impacted the culture are the most notable things about it. What works of art were made because this work of art exists? The fact that the song was on the Voyager Golden Record is charming, but it unless you can explain the cultural impact of the record it's not as important as the ways in which DWTN has influenced and continues to influence 1.) music and 2.) film. It's a song that has begotten wonderful art that has begotten other wonderful art. This is the basis of its value, and it has little to do with the Voyager Record.-- Atlantictire ( talk) 20:14, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
I deleted the sentence that said it was chosen for the Voyager record as an expression of loneliness. There were two sources listed and neither of them were actually attributed to the committee that chose the song, nor did they quote or reference anything said by the committee. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.164.32.41 ( talk) 15:23, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
If, as the Wikisource page says, the recording is in the public domain due to expired copyright, why do we have only a 28-second preview of it? Elmo iscariot ( talk) 16:53, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Dark Was the Night, Cold Was the Ground. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 23:21, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 02:21, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
A fact from Dark Was the Night, Cold Was the Ground appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 10 January 2010 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
|
I doubt this qualifies as a notable enough mention to warrant an entry in the article, but this song is featured in The West Wing episode " The Warfare of Genghis Khan" and is used to show Josh Lyman how important space exploration can be. Staxringold talk contribs 23:02, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
I have read the NYT article that is cited. It does not mention Carl Sagan at all. The words are those of the article's writer, Nicole Krauss. However, even if they were the words of Carl Sagan, he is not an authority on music (and thus his opinion is not notable), and, in addition to that, the article fails to state that it is his opinion, asserting it as a universal truth, which is obviously unacceptable. Make your counterarguments here; To argue through edits back and forth would violate the 3RR. If I don't get any responses in 24 hours (you guys seem to be pretty active), I'm removing the piece, and if it is placed back after that, I'm calling in an admin to look at this. Thanks. Dfsghjkgfhdg ( talk) 15:31, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
The introductory paragraph ends by stating the following:
"It has the distinction of being one of 27 samples of music included on the Voyager Golden Record, launched into space in 1977 to represent the diversity of life on Earth. "Dark Was the Night, Cold Was the Ground" was chosen as the human expression of loneliness."
The source cited only has the article's writer presenting that opinion with no reference to the team ever saying such. The argument is over whether or not she is an authority to make this claim and whether she can be cited for this claim (for the purposes of this article). Discussion above. Dfsghjkgfhdg ( talk) 16:57, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
The DWTN page reads like a biography of Johnson. The Johnson page is 1/3 info about DWTN. So... merge or swap info?-- Atlantictire ( talk) 00:43, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
Atlantictire, I can appreciate you spent time making these edits, but they were not good edits. By purging Blind Willie Johnson's article of the chunk of text and not paying attention to this article, you inserted information that was already covered (the information about Ry Cooder was duplicated, repeated information one sentence above about the Voyager Golden Record), was not cited, or cited to an unworkable link.
You also split paragraphs that were more readable, cohesive, and well-written for no reason. You created sections where none needed to be created. This article was quite fine really, but you did what I feared you would. You added the purged information from Johnson's article without reading about his life. Just a quick night's work, right?
Blind Willie Johnson deserves a better article. It's there where you should be doing the work. Go to the library, read about his life, use the best sources you can find and improve it. Spend some time rewriting his. -- Moni3 ( talk) 03:00, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
Pier Paolo Pasolini, like Wenders, is a major director who considers music as important as any other element of his films. The soundtrack for The Gospel According to St. Matthew (i.e. the one with DWTN on it) was nominated for an Oscar. Scroll down to 1966. It won the Special Jury Prize (that's like second place) at the Venice Film Festival.
Also a screen-writer, Pasolini co-wrote the scripts for Fellini’s La Dolce Vita and Nights of Cabiria. His film adaptation fot the Arabian Nights won the Grand Prix at the Cannes Film Festival. Huge influence on Martin Scorsese. St. Mattew greatly informed Scorsese’s Last Temptation of Christ. Here is what Scorsese says about film.
Kronos Quartet is a 37 year old string quartet. Won a Grammy for Different Trains. Nominated for You’ve Stolen My Heart: Songs From R.D. Burman's Bollywood with Asha Bhosle.
Performs conventional modern classical music as well as jazz, world music, folk and even rock. Collaborates with major composures such as Philip Glass (please tell me you know who that is), Terry Riley, Henryk Górecki, Steve Reich. Has performed and recorded with Modern Jazz Quartet, David Byrne, Tom Waits, David Bowie, Nine Inch Nails, Amon Tobin, and lots, lots more.
Dance companies that have used Kronos' music: Merce Cunningham, Paul Taylor, Twyla Tharp, and Eiko & Koma. Composed and recorded soundtracks for Requiem for a Dream, The Fountain, 21 Grams, True Stories.
Performs in the world’s major concert halls.
If the wikipedia links don’t confirm this info, the Kronos website will.
Maybe you disagree, but I'd say recognition of "Dark as the Night, Cold as the Ground" by these artists is absolutely the sort of thing that confirms the song's status as a great work of art.-- Atlantictire ( talk) 20:36, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
Try as I might, I could not find anything in the Obrecht article about Blind Willie Johnson being forgotten by all but guitar enthusiasts or about Davies introducing Johnson to R&B musicians. The article says, "Rev. Gary Davis copied Johnson's records and taught his music to up-and-coming New York folkies in the '60s." Also, by the 1960s "R&B" meant stuff like Ray Charles and Marvin Gaye (R&B hits of 1963 and 1968). If you can find evidence for those assertions, feel free to put them back in. There was something in the All Music guide about Davis being enormously popular and respected within the New York folk scene so I briefly mentioned that.-- Atlantictire ( talk) 06:48, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
I edited the Musicians and writers section so that it's arranged like this: 1. Johnson revivival 2. musicians who have covered DWTN 3. musicians who have said nice things about DWTN 4. writers who have said nice things about DWTN. Obviously, there's a major gap between Fairport and Kronos. I'd like to add something about Cooder (non-Paris, Texas related) and Marc Ribot. They may be all that's necessary. I seriously have not been able to find other musicians who have covered the song that aren't way small time.
Fairport was a very influential British band that included Richard Thompson. Hugely important guitarist and songwriter. So glad I was able to find a reference for that fact.-- Atlantictire ( talk) 07:39, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
Anyway.
I guess my point is if you don’t like how something sounds then change it. No need to accompany the edit with a dubious grammatical reprimand. I’ll probably only object if the change results in an unambiguous factual error or if with the edit, as I may now illustrate, the syntax becomes so spectacularly contorted the sentence could find work with Canada-based performance troupe, Cirque du Soleil.
I thought I'd mention that the review of Johnson in The Bookman was by Edward Abbe Niles. He was a leading exponent of the blues and there's tons written about and ref erencing him. A prefab wikipedia article, if you ask me. Also, Obrecht got the name of the journal wrong. It's " The Bookman". He was probably thrown off by how Niles is referred to as Bookman critic Edward Abbe Niles, same as the music critic for The New Yorker is New Yorker critic Sasha Frere Jones.
Finally, Louis Armstrong's " Melancholy Blues" is on the Golden Record, so this isn't true: "Johnson's intonation of poverty, class disparity, and alienation is unique to the project; no other sounds representing a negative human experience were chosen for the record." -- Atlantictire ( talk) 09:48, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
If you're worried the Humphrey Great Depression link looks a bit rinky-dink, the same guy who wrote the chapter cited in the Cohn book wrote the content of that page. It's a transcription of soundtrack liner notes from the PBS doc The Great Depression.
I'm pretty thrilled about the Sacred Harp connection. (edit: ok, so the book calls it "fasola". A lot of people see these terms as interchangeable, but fasola is a little more inclusive than Sacred Harp). The commonalities between shape note/fasola/Sacred Harp singing and lining-out are absolutely facinating. Two sides of the same tradition: hymn-based sacred music for the poor and illiterate.-- Atlantictire ( talk) 00:22, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
Deleted sentence about Voyager record that was factually incorrect. Deleted info about BWJ's blindness and the specific circumstances of his death that is more suited to the bio page and is covered there. Since this is an article about the song, and overview is fine. If people want to know why he went blind, they can go to the BWJ page.-- Atlantictire ( talk) 00:50, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
Multiple sources show Johnson and Smith sold on Columbia as well as Vocalion. However, the only source I could find for the sales figures fact was a website run by a blues dj named Jeff Harris.-- Atlantictire ( talk) 11:33, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
I'm of the mind that, when you're talking about the legacy of a work of art, the ways in which it has impacted the culture are the most notable things about it. What works of art were made because this work of art exists? The fact that the song was on the Voyager Golden Record is charming, but it unless you can explain the cultural impact of the record it's not as important as the ways in which DWTN has influenced and continues to influence 1.) music and 2.) film. It's a song that has begotten wonderful art that has begotten other wonderful art. This is the basis of its value, and it has little to do with the Voyager Record.-- Atlantictire ( talk) 20:14, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
I deleted the sentence that said it was chosen for the Voyager record as an expression of loneliness. There were two sources listed and neither of them were actually attributed to the committee that chose the song, nor did they quote or reference anything said by the committee. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.164.32.41 ( talk) 15:23, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
If, as the Wikisource page says, the recording is in the public domain due to expired copyright, why do we have only a 28-second preview of it? Elmo iscariot ( talk) 16:53, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Dark Was the Night, Cold Was the Ground. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 23:21, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 02:21, 11 March 2021 (UTC)