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Information about the Danites that came out at Avard's court appearance must be a matter of public record. Characteristically, we hear that "Some have argued Avard's testimony was oportunist and his testimony was false" but we don't hear what Avard testified. To the cautious reader, this says as much about the Mormons as anything else in this extremely cautious article. Wetman 09:21, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Good call, I'll add in the information - however, there's not a lot there. - Visorstuff 17:33, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)
BoNoMoJo, I think that Smith's condemnation is integral to a NPOV article, but now the article is a lengthy excerpt of Smith himself writting. I think that only the most powerful statements should be quoted from the history, probably, "When a knowledge of Avard's rascality came to the Presidency of the Church, he was cut off from the Church, and every means proper used to destroy his influence, at which he was highly incensed and went about whispering his evil insinuations, but finding every effort unavailing, he again turned conspirator, and sought to make friends with the mob."
A lot of the rest can be dealt with in a quick paraphrase. "Joseph Smith condemned Avard in the official History of the Church, and claims the ill-concieved group disappeared almost as soon as it came into being, ect, ect." This is especially sensible because much of the material in the passage doesn't relate to Smith's condemnation. The first few paragraphs instead give background speculations of why Avard might have had this dangerous idea, something that can be elaborated on without quoting Smith. CHL 02:56, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Although Orson Hyde signed the affidavit regarding the Danites on October 24, 1848 after becoming disaffected from the church, by June 27, 1849 he had repudiated the affidavit and rejoined the church.
As part of my general upgrade to Mormon War and related articles, I'm going to be expanding this article. I've attended a panel discussion between the leading scholars on Danites --- Bill Hartley, Steven LeSueur, Alex Baugh and D. Michael Quinn --- I'm going to outline points of agreement and dispute among them. Give me a sec, while I'm working on this. Thanks. -- John Hamer 16:53, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I'm sorry to return to see a mass of biased changes to this article. The tone of the apologetic changes is set with the reference: "(For more information and discussion on the Danites (and comparison of the different historical accounts' integrity), see Jeff Lindsay's analysis." Jeff Lindsay is not a historian; he is an amateur apologist whose work is extremely biased.
I can list the rest of the errors at length, but overall, I'd propose that we revert this article to its Sept. 2005 state. -- John Hamer 03:24, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
The article is full of POV. A revert or major revision is definitely in order.
Mapache 02:59, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps the article should pared down dramatically to facts acknowledged by the Mormon church or otherwise publicly documented, i.e. dictionary length of 3 or 4 sentences. Then a very brief statement alluding to rumors and secrets but capped with the disclaimer "The truth of such rumors will never be known, by definition of such so-called secret societies and conspiracy. All details in public circulation are but speculation. More importantly such details are not relevant and should not be of any concern to the general public and those who have not actually become involved. As such, references to Danites in works of fiction should be considered completely and uniquely defined in and for the purposes of that particular work." 69.23.124.142 ( talk) 21:28, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Several Wikipedia articles mention Mormon dissenters, but never explain the term. The result must be that the reader misses much of the meaning of the conflicts Mormons had.
Answer: The dissenting at that time occurred over the question of polygamy. The LDS renounced its previous stance on polygamy. Some in the church decided to dissent from this opinion and remain polygamous-- some because they were joined in polygamous marriages, and others because they held to what Joseph Smith had taught and preached. These dissenters broke into various churches and sects, but are considered cults by the mainstream LDS church. They, however, often view themselves as orthodox Mormons. There have been other dissenters, such as the RLDS, and again, most of this dissent circulates over how to interpret Smith and Young's words and work. [1] [2]
Likewise, early Mormons often talked about mobs, and the need to fight the mobs. But, what is this mob, and what did they do that required physical violence against them. Mormon apologists would like the public to believe that the mobs were inherently, physically violent, when, in reality, the mob was simply anyone who opposed them for any reason and in any way. The Mormon leadership would not tolerate any kind of criticism; the penalty for it was as much violence as required to silence the opponent, even if it meant death. Many people in Missouri, Illinois and Utah fell victim to this principle, "put under the sod" for criticizing Mormonism. Again, Mormons speak of mere verbal criticism as if it were physical, lethal force. In their minds, critics endanger the souls of the Mormons. Consider how differently this understanding changes the meaning of Rigdon's 4th of July Oration, in which he states, "And that mob that comes on us to disturb us, it shall be between us and them a war of extermination." He means, anyone who says anything critical of Mormonism or challenges its doctrines or its leaders is going to be attacked physically. Pooua 08:37, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm really not sure the point of all of this dialogue - it is not neccessarily there to help improve the article - however as you brought it up, i'll address it and then move on. The various groups called "danites" are much more complicated than you think, and should not be confused with destroying angels, blood atonement, or the utah war. These are completely seperate topics. Now on to missouri. Talking about fighting or defending one's family from "the mob" was not unique to Mormons in missouri. And Mormons were not the only group fought by Missourian mobs between 1830-1880. I do find it disturbing that the Missourians of the time tended to be much more individually violent to "innocents" in their mob activity than the other groups. Public rapings, tar and featherings were not done by the other groups, but both sides burned homes, fields and fued-like militia skirmishes that took place group against group in open invitation.
Mormons were hounded by angry crowds in New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Missouri and Illinois for seeminly quite different reasons. New York because some locals thought smith still had gold, public gatherings and the book of mormon. Pennslyvania because of "treasure-seeking" and blasphemy that the pious state didn't like including having a prophet and his saying he saw jesus. Ohio becuase of the kirtland safety society and united order title disputes, Missouri because of the mormon voting bloc (over issues such as slavery, militia organization, adultry being legally enforced - and other northern sentiments), vast land acquisistions, the zion concept and of course retaliation against group violence. Illinios because of polygamy, the nauvoo charter and smith's growing political power. Other religious groups were forced out of various places - look at who took over the city of Nauvoo after the Mormons left? A utopian group who had to resettle. They were forced to their situation as well. Look at how Texas, Pennsylvania, New England and New York were settled. Groups who were forced from their homes multiple times. i'm not saying Mormons were or were not innocent, what i am saying is that your seemingly complaints of the article are based on you imposing your current world view on the time, rather than letting the time speak for itself.
I'm suprised at your lack of reading of primary sources available on Mormon history and your lack of understanding of what really took place. Was some of the issue mormon's faults? Of course. But "Mormons speak of mere verbal criticism as if it were physical, lethal force." I have a list of over 200 Mormons who were killed or died due to Mob violence in Missouri. To them it wasn't "verbal criticism," it was more. It was being strapped to a bench and raped by ten men until death. It was being dragged across ice until the head was split open. It was being tied up and dropped into a river until they drowned. It was being shot while trying to escape a burning home. It was dying from exposure after a home was burned, or of starvation because you were kidnapped away from your mother's breast and left to die in the wood. It was being shot while defending your mill. it was being shot at point blank range so that the nit wouldn't grow to become lice. I'm not excusing what the mormons did, I just find your conclusions very ignorant of Missiouri and Mormon history very ignorant and surface. Ochlocracy was part of living west of the Appalachians.
The mob was much more than "simply anyone who opposed them for any reason and in any way." Nor today do most members of the church feel that criticism and Anti-Mormon activism are the same thing. Someone who disagrees with me on a doctrinal matter is someone who disagrees. Someone who criticized because of same-sex marriage or some other policy of the church is someone who criticizes. Someone who says we've "changed history" is someone who hasn't read multiple primary sources. Someone who thinks the godmakers is slightly factual is someone who is misguided and completely uninformed. Yet they are still not Anti-Mormon. Someone who burns temple garments or yells at Mormons and tells them they are going to hell because they read the book of Mormmon is someone who I consider anti-Mormon.
Also, curious if you have a source for Young claiming that Danites were killing mormon enemies? The only Brigham quote I have on the Danites is as follows (interestingly talking about the violence that still took place in Missouri even after the Mormons left):
"Catch and convict"-ing highwaymen is much different than "Danites were still active in Utah in the business of killing Mormon enemies." remember, the law enforcement in Utah, was under the direction of Hosea Stout - who was a celebrated Danite from the Missouri period. Most police in Utah were called Danites as a result by the people here for many years - not becase they were violent, but because they were led by Marshall/Sherrif Stout. I'd wager that the term Nauvoo Legion caused more fear among Mormon in Utah than the term Danite in the 1850-70s. After all, the Nauvoo Legion "Sleepeth but never dies."
You also say "It is much more reasonable to look for what it was about the Mormons that alarmed such a wide variety of people, and why we don't see this clash today. When you answer those questions, you will realize that Mormonism has undergone radical changes over the last 170 years, or else it could not be tolerated in our society even today."
Let's see what changes we've made. No big groups practice the united order, and...we don't do polygamy. And the Church government and territorial government are now seperate. What is the point? When you look at how many people refused assistance during the Katrina disaster from the LDS church becuase they were "racist mormons" you wonder if it really is "tolerated" as much as it should be. or when an average of three missionaries are killed each year around the world because of being missionaries. Mormons may have softened their speech, but the church is not that "radically" different from the 1840s.
Let's get back to the article at hand and if you have sources, not just opinions, add in more detail. If not, the discussion doesn't move the article forward. - Visorstuff 01:20, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I read the article on the Danites and I have lived as a member of the LDS church and though i hold no ill will toward them i ask to have my name removed from their records.I looked at this article with the absence of thought for Avarts character or Joseph Smiths character because that seemed to be the pivotal point among the entire article. This being said yes it does seem that their is no record of the court proceedings and this is a good point where it losses validaty I am afraid is where you take into account it was in a court of Law. Presided over by a judge and jurors , before you say it I know you beleive the jurors and the Judge had preconceived notions but dont you as well have a preconceived notion of Joseph Smiths Innocence based off of what you beleive. You overlook another Fact everyone that ever opposses the church was CAST out or Chasrised publicly much the same tactic a politician uses when ever he is caught with an Intern if you ask me ,My opinion, The fact is simple Avart testified that Joseph Smith was the Leader of the Danites fact. Yet another fact that seems to be overlooked is until his testimony against Joseph Smith he was still a member. Hypocracy my friend is on both sides of this coin. As for the article being unbiased it is. I t does not say who is innocent or who isnt it simply states what LDS and Non LDS people beleive to be the story. as for the slave issue and illetracy thats alittle bold a statement to claim considering that one of the things we are taught in the LDS church is that Joseph Smith had no higher than a Second Grade education and this point is used often in the missionary Discussions to show he could not have invented the Book of mormon because it is written in the same style of writing as the bible which is a style no longer used in that time period supporting validaty in the translation being one of divination of God and not a concoction of a farm boy in New york. So illetracte or not you beleive Joseph Smith had enough incite to make rational and sound decisions for large groups of people so your point on the Missouri peoples of that time period being Illetrate slave owners , which i will point out that everyone even the Northern states owned slaves during that time period, even LDS church Members so please no smoke and mirrors lets stick to the topic here and not try to talk circles around the real issue or divert attrention elsewhere in an attempt to justify your opinion its insulting to you and those trying to engage in serious discussion on the matter. Respectfully i find that the article is unbiased and lacking in facts on both sides. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.105.128.58 ( talk) 01:15, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
The article currently states in the Background section, "Kirtland Safety Society Bank; if the shareholders had paid in full their true share amount to the Society, it probably would have been successful." What is the basis for claiming that it would have been successful? Pooua 07:18, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
The section titled, "Background" gives an account of the Kirtland Safety Society anti-bank fiasco and the resulting tensions between so-called apostates and Mormon leadership, but absolutely nothing in the article anywhere draws a definite connection between those unfortunate events and the formation of the Danites. What are we being told in "Background"? That the Danites were specifically for the purpose of preventing dissent among Mormons, even when (or especially when) the leaders screwed up? I doubt that very many here would agree with that association. I have not read anything that suggests that the Danites existed specifically because of the events in Kirtland. Rather, the Danites formed to enforce Mormon law, first on Mormons, then on non-Mormons. The events in Ohio provided Joseph Smith with important lessons, but were only part of the motivation behind the formation of the Danites. The Danites were not merely for the purpose of enforcing church discipline amongst the Mormons, but for the purpose of physically attacking any threat to the will of the Mormon leadership, whether from Mormons or non-Mormons. Pooua 10:36, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I am planning to add a few more quotations to the section about rumour involving the Danites and blood atonement. These are a variety of quotations from Brigham Young in which he publicly and privately denied the existence of the Danites. These quotations add to the article in that they are said within months before and after of his comments about a "vigilance committee" and Danites "on the horses heels." What they show more than anything else is that Young's mentioning of Danites in this context is sarcasm. Panbobor ( talk) 02:56, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
I have made a few more linguistic changes in this section to provide a better flow. Panbobor ( talk) 04:27, 1 February 2008 (UTC)\
You'll notice that almost all of my quotations are from original sources such as journals and newspapers. Otherwise they come from reputable historical journals and books. If you want to check the citations, please do by all means. I'm perfectly willing to allow for other points of view, but I'm also interested in good history. Please, tell me you can prove that "blood atonement" was put into practice which your edit seems to suggest. If your edits turn out to be some anti-Mormon rant based on the biased rubbish frequently published as objective Mormon history, I will be extremely dissapointed. Now, if you want to place quotations from William Smith's accusations (hopefully you know who that is) and claim that the existence of the Danites in Utah is disputed, I might have slightly more respect for you, although William Smith hardly seems like the most reliable source. Panbobor ( talk) 02:45, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
You'll notice that I didn't remove your quoted sources. What I removed was mainly your Mormon POV commentary that was strewn throughout your edits. Please WP:AGF and don't accuse me of anti-mormon propaganda. Just because it's not mormon-approved doesn't mean it's anti-mormon. Please check your mormon POV at the door, we dont need anymore editors like you around here. 157.182.97.163 ( talk) 15:15, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm perfectly willing to discuss changes in a dignified manner if you would like. I will remind you that you are the one who began by accusing me of, what was it, oh yes, not being able to "think for myself." I can appreciate that not everyone will agree with me or my conclusions. However, it is you that began in a rather bigoted and narrow-minded tone. My conclusions are based upon sound research and respected sources. Just because you don't like my conclusions doesn't automatically make them wrong or unfounded. Now, can you tell me precisely what you disagree with without reverting to attacks on my intelligence or my character? Or do we have to call each other names just to keep things interesting? Panbobor ( talk) 21:24, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
I understand your concern for objectivity on a site such as wikipedia. Ultimately, the problem becomes that on such a contraversial subject as the Danites, etc, it is virtually impossible to not let a point of view slip through no matter what one does. The facts and their interpretation are, after all, disputed, and do not necessarily speak for themselves. This is the general problem of history. Even the selection of particular research over other research for an article such as this necessarily betrays a certain point of view. Were there Danites in Utah, or weren't there? It depends what you mean by the term and who you talk to. The Danite Band of 1838 most likely did not exist anymore, even though the national press continued to eat the rumour up and novelists wrote reams of fiction on them. But even if the Danites did not exist, was there violence in Utah? Sure, welcome to the wild west. But who perpetrated it and for what reason? Again, depends who you ask. Next the question: does every point of view, no matter how far fetched, need to be thoroughly explored in order to make a wikipedia article valid? Who judges what gets to be discarded? I have written quite a few wikipedia articles and have tried to give both sides of the story in each. I guess I'll just drop a few more footnotes in this article. Panbobor ( talk) 22:19, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
I have tagged this page because of serious POV errors. I have been editing as an anon at school (I don't sign in on public computers) to try and clear some up but it is quite a large amount of POV, so I have tagged to draw multiple viewpoints in and better this article. I don't feel that me trying to edit the whole thing myself will do any good because it probably won't solve much. There needs to be different minds working on this to make it a better article. As of now it reads much like a pro-mormon stance and only gives one side of the story. As Panbobor mis-stated above, it is not the decision of anyone here what facts should or shouldn't be included. We are not to input our "own conclusions" but to state the facts from all sides of the story and let the reader decide for theirself. As of right now that is not being done and the page reads like a poor pro-mormon essay on the danites. I hope this draws in other editors to help contribute to this article. JRN ( talk) 01:30, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Four years further on from the comments above, there are still a lot of POV issues here. In particular, every primary source that deviates from what seems to be official LDS position on the Danites is described as discredited. The implication (in absence of other evidence) is that those who leave the church will say anything to discredit it. Moreover, the article as a whole is incoherent, probably owing to its being a history of a group that someone wants us to believe did not exist in the first place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.70.117.55 ( talk) 01:03, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
This seems contradictory to us.
How can someone be excommunicated after he has already left the church. Isn't that like firing someone who has quit. I think this needs to be changed but I wanted a different POV on it. Thanks JRN ( talk) 13:10, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Regarding this diff--
"periods of conflict and violence with" changed to "periods of violence and conflict from" (my emphasis)
"this era of pacifism was coming to an end" changed to "this era of pacifism resulted in the continuing persecution of the Latter Day Saint people"
Comment: These two changes seem designed to cast the LDS people as victims with absolutely no responsibility for what happened. I don't see the original text as having been biased against the LDS, but the changes appear to introduce a POV.
" Joseph Smith, Jr. and Sidney Rigdon of the First Presidency lost control of the headquarters, including the Kirtland Temple, to dissenters led by Warren Parish. Smith and his followers having been forced to relocated to Far West during the early part of 1838 by armed dissenters and anti-Mormons enforced a world view for Smith and other church leaders that the church was fighting for its life.<ref>Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy,pp. 92</ref>"
changed to
" Joseph Smith, Jr. and Sidney Rigdon of the First Presidency left Kirtland, leaving this headquarters. Smith and his followers relocated to Far West during the early part of 1838.
Comment: This change appears to be attempting to remove any suggestion that Smith might have failed to maintain control of matters. It also removes a referenced statement. Granted, the original needed a minor copyedit.
"financial disagreements had likewise created additional dissenters. The Missouri presidency stood accused of mismanaging church funds" changed to "financial mismanaging church funds occured. Monies..."
Comment: This change introduces vagueness: one is left asking "who stood accused?" The purpose appears to be that of absolving church leadership of any suggestion of wrongdoing.
Since each of these changes appear to introduce POV, I have reverted them, while leaving the other changes (including fact tags) in the diff unchanged. Please note: if you look at my edit history, you will see that I have no POV with regard to LDS articles. I just happened to see this edit, and it did not appear to me to be in fact reducing POV. -- Mwanner | Talk 19:59, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
not just pop out of nowhere for no purpose. Attempting to portray it without context is deceitful and I am sure that is not your intention. -- Storm Rider (talk) 18:57, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
I propose changing this sentence:
"They began as a group of zealots determined to drive out internal dissension among the Mormons — the so called 'dissenters' which group included former high ranking Mormons including the Three Witnesses — but progressed to becoming involved in militia and paramilitary conflicts with U.S. forces and both civilians and law enforcement of Missouri."
to this:
"They began as a group of zealots determined to drive out internal dissension among the Mormons — dissenters which included former high ranking Mormons including the Three Witnesses — but progressed to becoming involved in militia and paramilitary conflicts with U.S. forces and both civilians and law enforcement of Missouri."
The first and current version seems biased in using "so called 'dissenters'" because it questions (without citations or deference to NPOV) whether or not they should be called dissenters. My proposed change does not alter the content of the sentence, only the tone. M3I5K7E 15:46, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
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Information about the Danites that came out at Avard's court appearance must be a matter of public record. Characteristically, we hear that "Some have argued Avard's testimony was oportunist and his testimony was false" but we don't hear what Avard testified. To the cautious reader, this says as much about the Mormons as anything else in this extremely cautious article. Wetman 09:21, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Good call, I'll add in the information - however, there's not a lot there. - Visorstuff 17:33, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)
BoNoMoJo, I think that Smith's condemnation is integral to a NPOV article, but now the article is a lengthy excerpt of Smith himself writting. I think that only the most powerful statements should be quoted from the history, probably, "When a knowledge of Avard's rascality came to the Presidency of the Church, he was cut off from the Church, and every means proper used to destroy his influence, at which he was highly incensed and went about whispering his evil insinuations, but finding every effort unavailing, he again turned conspirator, and sought to make friends with the mob."
A lot of the rest can be dealt with in a quick paraphrase. "Joseph Smith condemned Avard in the official History of the Church, and claims the ill-concieved group disappeared almost as soon as it came into being, ect, ect." This is especially sensible because much of the material in the passage doesn't relate to Smith's condemnation. The first few paragraphs instead give background speculations of why Avard might have had this dangerous idea, something that can be elaborated on without quoting Smith. CHL 02:56, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Although Orson Hyde signed the affidavit regarding the Danites on October 24, 1848 after becoming disaffected from the church, by June 27, 1849 he had repudiated the affidavit and rejoined the church.
As part of my general upgrade to Mormon War and related articles, I'm going to be expanding this article. I've attended a panel discussion between the leading scholars on Danites --- Bill Hartley, Steven LeSueur, Alex Baugh and D. Michael Quinn --- I'm going to outline points of agreement and dispute among them. Give me a sec, while I'm working on this. Thanks. -- John Hamer 16:53, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I'm sorry to return to see a mass of biased changes to this article. The tone of the apologetic changes is set with the reference: "(For more information and discussion on the Danites (and comparison of the different historical accounts' integrity), see Jeff Lindsay's analysis." Jeff Lindsay is not a historian; he is an amateur apologist whose work is extremely biased.
I can list the rest of the errors at length, but overall, I'd propose that we revert this article to its Sept. 2005 state. -- John Hamer 03:24, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
The article is full of POV. A revert or major revision is definitely in order.
Mapache 02:59, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps the article should pared down dramatically to facts acknowledged by the Mormon church or otherwise publicly documented, i.e. dictionary length of 3 or 4 sentences. Then a very brief statement alluding to rumors and secrets but capped with the disclaimer "The truth of such rumors will never be known, by definition of such so-called secret societies and conspiracy. All details in public circulation are but speculation. More importantly such details are not relevant and should not be of any concern to the general public and those who have not actually become involved. As such, references to Danites in works of fiction should be considered completely and uniquely defined in and for the purposes of that particular work." 69.23.124.142 ( talk) 21:28, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Several Wikipedia articles mention Mormon dissenters, but never explain the term. The result must be that the reader misses much of the meaning of the conflicts Mormons had.
Answer: The dissenting at that time occurred over the question of polygamy. The LDS renounced its previous stance on polygamy. Some in the church decided to dissent from this opinion and remain polygamous-- some because they were joined in polygamous marriages, and others because they held to what Joseph Smith had taught and preached. These dissenters broke into various churches and sects, but are considered cults by the mainstream LDS church. They, however, often view themselves as orthodox Mormons. There have been other dissenters, such as the RLDS, and again, most of this dissent circulates over how to interpret Smith and Young's words and work. [1] [2]
Likewise, early Mormons often talked about mobs, and the need to fight the mobs. But, what is this mob, and what did they do that required physical violence against them. Mormon apologists would like the public to believe that the mobs were inherently, physically violent, when, in reality, the mob was simply anyone who opposed them for any reason and in any way. The Mormon leadership would not tolerate any kind of criticism; the penalty for it was as much violence as required to silence the opponent, even if it meant death. Many people in Missouri, Illinois and Utah fell victim to this principle, "put under the sod" for criticizing Mormonism. Again, Mormons speak of mere verbal criticism as if it were physical, lethal force. In their minds, critics endanger the souls of the Mormons. Consider how differently this understanding changes the meaning of Rigdon's 4th of July Oration, in which he states, "And that mob that comes on us to disturb us, it shall be between us and them a war of extermination." He means, anyone who says anything critical of Mormonism or challenges its doctrines or its leaders is going to be attacked physically. Pooua 08:37, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm really not sure the point of all of this dialogue - it is not neccessarily there to help improve the article - however as you brought it up, i'll address it and then move on. The various groups called "danites" are much more complicated than you think, and should not be confused with destroying angels, blood atonement, or the utah war. These are completely seperate topics. Now on to missouri. Talking about fighting or defending one's family from "the mob" was not unique to Mormons in missouri. And Mormons were not the only group fought by Missourian mobs between 1830-1880. I do find it disturbing that the Missourians of the time tended to be much more individually violent to "innocents" in their mob activity than the other groups. Public rapings, tar and featherings were not done by the other groups, but both sides burned homes, fields and fued-like militia skirmishes that took place group against group in open invitation.
Mormons were hounded by angry crowds in New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Missouri and Illinois for seeminly quite different reasons. New York because some locals thought smith still had gold, public gatherings and the book of mormon. Pennslyvania because of "treasure-seeking" and blasphemy that the pious state didn't like including having a prophet and his saying he saw jesus. Ohio becuase of the kirtland safety society and united order title disputes, Missouri because of the mormon voting bloc (over issues such as slavery, militia organization, adultry being legally enforced - and other northern sentiments), vast land acquisistions, the zion concept and of course retaliation against group violence. Illinios because of polygamy, the nauvoo charter and smith's growing political power. Other religious groups were forced out of various places - look at who took over the city of Nauvoo after the Mormons left? A utopian group who had to resettle. They were forced to their situation as well. Look at how Texas, Pennsylvania, New England and New York were settled. Groups who were forced from their homes multiple times. i'm not saying Mormons were or were not innocent, what i am saying is that your seemingly complaints of the article are based on you imposing your current world view on the time, rather than letting the time speak for itself.
I'm suprised at your lack of reading of primary sources available on Mormon history and your lack of understanding of what really took place. Was some of the issue mormon's faults? Of course. But "Mormons speak of mere verbal criticism as if it were physical, lethal force." I have a list of over 200 Mormons who were killed or died due to Mob violence in Missouri. To them it wasn't "verbal criticism," it was more. It was being strapped to a bench and raped by ten men until death. It was being dragged across ice until the head was split open. It was being tied up and dropped into a river until they drowned. It was being shot while trying to escape a burning home. It was dying from exposure after a home was burned, or of starvation because you were kidnapped away from your mother's breast and left to die in the wood. It was being shot while defending your mill. it was being shot at point blank range so that the nit wouldn't grow to become lice. I'm not excusing what the mormons did, I just find your conclusions very ignorant of Missiouri and Mormon history very ignorant and surface. Ochlocracy was part of living west of the Appalachians.
The mob was much more than "simply anyone who opposed them for any reason and in any way." Nor today do most members of the church feel that criticism and Anti-Mormon activism are the same thing. Someone who disagrees with me on a doctrinal matter is someone who disagrees. Someone who criticized because of same-sex marriage or some other policy of the church is someone who criticizes. Someone who says we've "changed history" is someone who hasn't read multiple primary sources. Someone who thinks the godmakers is slightly factual is someone who is misguided and completely uninformed. Yet they are still not Anti-Mormon. Someone who burns temple garments or yells at Mormons and tells them they are going to hell because they read the book of Mormmon is someone who I consider anti-Mormon.
Also, curious if you have a source for Young claiming that Danites were killing mormon enemies? The only Brigham quote I have on the Danites is as follows (interestingly talking about the violence that still took place in Missouri even after the Mormons left):
"Catch and convict"-ing highwaymen is much different than "Danites were still active in Utah in the business of killing Mormon enemies." remember, the law enforcement in Utah, was under the direction of Hosea Stout - who was a celebrated Danite from the Missouri period. Most police in Utah were called Danites as a result by the people here for many years - not becase they were violent, but because they were led by Marshall/Sherrif Stout. I'd wager that the term Nauvoo Legion caused more fear among Mormon in Utah than the term Danite in the 1850-70s. After all, the Nauvoo Legion "Sleepeth but never dies."
You also say "It is much more reasonable to look for what it was about the Mormons that alarmed such a wide variety of people, and why we don't see this clash today. When you answer those questions, you will realize that Mormonism has undergone radical changes over the last 170 years, or else it could not be tolerated in our society even today."
Let's see what changes we've made. No big groups practice the united order, and...we don't do polygamy. And the Church government and territorial government are now seperate. What is the point? When you look at how many people refused assistance during the Katrina disaster from the LDS church becuase they were "racist mormons" you wonder if it really is "tolerated" as much as it should be. or when an average of three missionaries are killed each year around the world because of being missionaries. Mormons may have softened their speech, but the church is not that "radically" different from the 1840s.
Let's get back to the article at hand and if you have sources, not just opinions, add in more detail. If not, the discussion doesn't move the article forward. - Visorstuff 01:20, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I read the article on the Danites and I have lived as a member of the LDS church and though i hold no ill will toward them i ask to have my name removed from their records.I looked at this article with the absence of thought for Avarts character or Joseph Smiths character because that seemed to be the pivotal point among the entire article. This being said yes it does seem that their is no record of the court proceedings and this is a good point where it losses validaty I am afraid is where you take into account it was in a court of Law. Presided over by a judge and jurors , before you say it I know you beleive the jurors and the Judge had preconceived notions but dont you as well have a preconceived notion of Joseph Smiths Innocence based off of what you beleive. You overlook another Fact everyone that ever opposses the church was CAST out or Chasrised publicly much the same tactic a politician uses when ever he is caught with an Intern if you ask me ,My opinion, The fact is simple Avart testified that Joseph Smith was the Leader of the Danites fact. Yet another fact that seems to be overlooked is until his testimony against Joseph Smith he was still a member. Hypocracy my friend is on both sides of this coin. As for the article being unbiased it is. I t does not say who is innocent or who isnt it simply states what LDS and Non LDS people beleive to be the story. as for the slave issue and illetracy thats alittle bold a statement to claim considering that one of the things we are taught in the LDS church is that Joseph Smith had no higher than a Second Grade education and this point is used often in the missionary Discussions to show he could not have invented the Book of mormon because it is written in the same style of writing as the bible which is a style no longer used in that time period supporting validaty in the translation being one of divination of God and not a concoction of a farm boy in New york. So illetracte or not you beleive Joseph Smith had enough incite to make rational and sound decisions for large groups of people so your point on the Missouri peoples of that time period being Illetrate slave owners , which i will point out that everyone even the Northern states owned slaves during that time period, even LDS church Members so please no smoke and mirrors lets stick to the topic here and not try to talk circles around the real issue or divert attrention elsewhere in an attempt to justify your opinion its insulting to you and those trying to engage in serious discussion on the matter. Respectfully i find that the article is unbiased and lacking in facts on both sides. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.105.128.58 ( talk) 01:15, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
The article currently states in the Background section, "Kirtland Safety Society Bank; if the shareholders had paid in full their true share amount to the Society, it probably would have been successful." What is the basis for claiming that it would have been successful? Pooua 07:18, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
The section titled, "Background" gives an account of the Kirtland Safety Society anti-bank fiasco and the resulting tensions between so-called apostates and Mormon leadership, but absolutely nothing in the article anywhere draws a definite connection between those unfortunate events and the formation of the Danites. What are we being told in "Background"? That the Danites were specifically for the purpose of preventing dissent among Mormons, even when (or especially when) the leaders screwed up? I doubt that very many here would agree with that association. I have not read anything that suggests that the Danites existed specifically because of the events in Kirtland. Rather, the Danites formed to enforce Mormon law, first on Mormons, then on non-Mormons. The events in Ohio provided Joseph Smith with important lessons, but were only part of the motivation behind the formation of the Danites. The Danites were not merely for the purpose of enforcing church discipline amongst the Mormons, but for the purpose of physically attacking any threat to the will of the Mormon leadership, whether from Mormons or non-Mormons. Pooua 10:36, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I am planning to add a few more quotations to the section about rumour involving the Danites and blood atonement. These are a variety of quotations from Brigham Young in which he publicly and privately denied the existence of the Danites. These quotations add to the article in that they are said within months before and after of his comments about a "vigilance committee" and Danites "on the horses heels." What they show more than anything else is that Young's mentioning of Danites in this context is sarcasm. Panbobor ( talk) 02:56, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
I have made a few more linguistic changes in this section to provide a better flow. Panbobor ( talk) 04:27, 1 February 2008 (UTC)\
You'll notice that almost all of my quotations are from original sources such as journals and newspapers. Otherwise they come from reputable historical journals and books. If you want to check the citations, please do by all means. I'm perfectly willing to allow for other points of view, but I'm also interested in good history. Please, tell me you can prove that "blood atonement" was put into practice which your edit seems to suggest. If your edits turn out to be some anti-Mormon rant based on the biased rubbish frequently published as objective Mormon history, I will be extremely dissapointed. Now, if you want to place quotations from William Smith's accusations (hopefully you know who that is) and claim that the existence of the Danites in Utah is disputed, I might have slightly more respect for you, although William Smith hardly seems like the most reliable source. Panbobor ( talk) 02:45, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
You'll notice that I didn't remove your quoted sources. What I removed was mainly your Mormon POV commentary that was strewn throughout your edits. Please WP:AGF and don't accuse me of anti-mormon propaganda. Just because it's not mormon-approved doesn't mean it's anti-mormon. Please check your mormon POV at the door, we dont need anymore editors like you around here. 157.182.97.163 ( talk) 15:15, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm perfectly willing to discuss changes in a dignified manner if you would like. I will remind you that you are the one who began by accusing me of, what was it, oh yes, not being able to "think for myself." I can appreciate that not everyone will agree with me or my conclusions. However, it is you that began in a rather bigoted and narrow-minded tone. My conclusions are based upon sound research and respected sources. Just because you don't like my conclusions doesn't automatically make them wrong or unfounded. Now, can you tell me precisely what you disagree with without reverting to attacks on my intelligence or my character? Or do we have to call each other names just to keep things interesting? Panbobor ( talk) 21:24, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
I understand your concern for objectivity on a site such as wikipedia. Ultimately, the problem becomes that on such a contraversial subject as the Danites, etc, it is virtually impossible to not let a point of view slip through no matter what one does. The facts and their interpretation are, after all, disputed, and do not necessarily speak for themselves. This is the general problem of history. Even the selection of particular research over other research for an article such as this necessarily betrays a certain point of view. Were there Danites in Utah, or weren't there? It depends what you mean by the term and who you talk to. The Danite Band of 1838 most likely did not exist anymore, even though the national press continued to eat the rumour up and novelists wrote reams of fiction on them. But even if the Danites did not exist, was there violence in Utah? Sure, welcome to the wild west. But who perpetrated it and for what reason? Again, depends who you ask. Next the question: does every point of view, no matter how far fetched, need to be thoroughly explored in order to make a wikipedia article valid? Who judges what gets to be discarded? I have written quite a few wikipedia articles and have tried to give both sides of the story in each. I guess I'll just drop a few more footnotes in this article. Panbobor ( talk) 22:19, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
I have tagged this page because of serious POV errors. I have been editing as an anon at school (I don't sign in on public computers) to try and clear some up but it is quite a large amount of POV, so I have tagged to draw multiple viewpoints in and better this article. I don't feel that me trying to edit the whole thing myself will do any good because it probably won't solve much. There needs to be different minds working on this to make it a better article. As of now it reads much like a pro-mormon stance and only gives one side of the story. As Panbobor mis-stated above, it is not the decision of anyone here what facts should or shouldn't be included. We are not to input our "own conclusions" but to state the facts from all sides of the story and let the reader decide for theirself. As of right now that is not being done and the page reads like a poor pro-mormon essay on the danites. I hope this draws in other editors to help contribute to this article. JRN ( talk) 01:30, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Four years further on from the comments above, there are still a lot of POV issues here. In particular, every primary source that deviates from what seems to be official LDS position on the Danites is described as discredited. The implication (in absence of other evidence) is that those who leave the church will say anything to discredit it. Moreover, the article as a whole is incoherent, probably owing to its being a history of a group that someone wants us to believe did not exist in the first place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.70.117.55 ( talk) 01:03, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
This seems contradictory to us.
How can someone be excommunicated after he has already left the church. Isn't that like firing someone who has quit. I think this needs to be changed but I wanted a different POV on it. Thanks JRN ( talk) 13:10, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Regarding this diff--
"periods of conflict and violence with" changed to "periods of violence and conflict from" (my emphasis)
"this era of pacifism was coming to an end" changed to "this era of pacifism resulted in the continuing persecution of the Latter Day Saint people"
Comment: These two changes seem designed to cast the LDS people as victims with absolutely no responsibility for what happened. I don't see the original text as having been biased against the LDS, but the changes appear to introduce a POV.
" Joseph Smith, Jr. and Sidney Rigdon of the First Presidency lost control of the headquarters, including the Kirtland Temple, to dissenters led by Warren Parish. Smith and his followers having been forced to relocated to Far West during the early part of 1838 by armed dissenters and anti-Mormons enforced a world view for Smith and other church leaders that the church was fighting for its life.<ref>Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy,pp. 92</ref>"
changed to
" Joseph Smith, Jr. and Sidney Rigdon of the First Presidency left Kirtland, leaving this headquarters. Smith and his followers relocated to Far West during the early part of 1838.
Comment: This change appears to be attempting to remove any suggestion that Smith might have failed to maintain control of matters. It also removes a referenced statement. Granted, the original needed a minor copyedit.
"financial disagreements had likewise created additional dissenters. The Missouri presidency stood accused of mismanaging church funds" changed to "financial mismanaging church funds occured. Monies..."
Comment: This change introduces vagueness: one is left asking "who stood accused?" The purpose appears to be that of absolving church leadership of any suggestion of wrongdoing.
Since each of these changes appear to introduce POV, I have reverted them, while leaving the other changes (including fact tags) in the diff unchanged. Please note: if you look at my edit history, you will see that I have no POV with regard to LDS articles. I just happened to see this edit, and it did not appear to me to be in fact reducing POV. -- Mwanner | Talk 19:59, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
not just pop out of nowhere for no purpose. Attempting to portray it without context is deceitful and I am sure that is not your intention. -- Storm Rider (talk) 18:57, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
I propose changing this sentence:
"They began as a group of zealots determined to drive out internal dissension among the Mormons — the so called 'dissenters' which group included former high ranking Mormons including the Three Witnesses — but progressed to becoming involved in militia and paramilitary conflicts with U.S. forces and both civilians and law enforcement of Missouri."
to this:
"They began as a group of zealots determined to drive out internal dissension among the Mormons — dissenters which included former high ranking Mormons including the Three Witnesses — but progressed to becoming involved in militia and paramilitary conflicts with U.S. forces and both civilians and law enforcement of Missouri."
The first and current version seems biased in using "so called 'dissenters'" because it questions (without citations or deference to NPOV) whether or not they should be called dissenters. My proposed change does not alter the content of the sentence, only the tone. M3I5K7E 15:46, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
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