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The following was transferred from the old "Issues of Toronto" talk page April 23, 2008:


If anyone has the time to incorporate info from these links, please do so. Thanks. Mind matrix 20:24, 14 March 2008 (UTC) reply

Hey this is my first time here, but I think I have some pretty interesting statistical information from some personal research I've been doing into crime in Toronto. I'd like to point out that since Toronto has such a large population there tends to be an equalizing effect on the crime data collected. For instance, although Toronto's homicide rate will fluctuate from 2 to around 3.5, areas of the city will experience rates far in excess of the American national rate. For instance Jane and Finch area: 15 per 100,000, Malvern 12, Malton (technically Peel) 17 (all figures for 2007). If you take the cumulative homicide rate for one area (Jane/Finch) for the years 2005-2008, you would get a rate of 37 per 100,000, so the affect of this continually high rate is very serious in some parts of the city. In addition gun crime is also a serious issue in many communities, with Jane and Finch area experiencing a shooting-incidence rate of 32 per 100,000, in addition to having 90% of its homicides in 2007 being gun-related. This should all be pointed out in the section as I think it is really important people know this. I think we should also remove the Michael Moore reference, as he is definitely not an objective source. In addition, the robbery rate for Toronto is around double (228) what is listed, as most of the info at the top of the page is 10 years old. In reference to the above article, the reason for Toronto's deceptively low crime-rates, is because it is vastly larger than other Canadian cities. For instance Scarborough having a slightly smaller population than Winnipeg, had in 2007 the same homicide rate as Winnipeg had in 2004 (4.9), and yet Winnipeg was defamed by Maclean's. I've been looking through the statistical reports released by Toronto Police for 2007, but I'm not exactly sure how to edit the article, I'll have to look that up. In the meantime, sorry for being long-winded, tell me what you think! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mel215 ( talk • contribs) 22:30, 7 April 2009 (UTC) reply
Why would you compare Toronto's outlier areas with the American national average? That average includes everything from cities to low density rural areas. Why not compare the area in Toronto with the worst statistics to areas of poverty in the U.S.? Toronto's crime rates are anything but deceptive. They make clear how common instances of crime are relative to the city's size. Simply taking a figure like "80 homicides", comparing it to a smaller city's lower number and concluding that the larger city is more dangerous would be to be deceived. The crime rate statistics counteract that. It's no trick, unless you're looking for a picture that isn't there. I think you are; you try to bundle Malton's statistics in with those of Toronto outliers, when it is in Mississauga. A.Roz ( talk) 04:21, 30 January 2010 (UTC) reply


"Youth gangs" section needs significant work

This section contains 10+ assertions that have no citations. In addition, it focuses heavily on police response to youth gangs instead of more general information about youth gang-related crime in Toronto. I've added a template message and will begin working on this section — adding sources, removing unverifiable claims, etc. Cycloth ( talk) 18:44, 28 May 2015 (UTC) reply

Okay, I've done a first rewrite. Stuff I removed:

  • "Recently, gang-related incidents have been on the rise. Between the years of 1997 and 2005 over 300 gang-related deaths have occurred. American gang experts have been brought in and increased funding for programs in troubled neighbourhoods have been recently initiated. Other organizations, including the New York City-based group Guardian Angels, have come to Toronto despite the massive displeasure of city residents, city officials, and politicians. Despite these incidents, Toronto police have made significant arrests of gang members, which has resulted in fewer illegal guns on the streets." No citations.
  • In late September 2005, Toronto police arrested 44 members of the Rexdale-based "Ardwick Blood Crew" also known as A.B.C. Over 1,000 charges were laid. In May 2006, 106 additional gang members were apprehended, who were part of Rexdale's " Jamestown Crew" (a Crip gang), in the largest gang sweep in Toronto's history. In total, there were over 1,000 charges laid in the anti-gang offensive called Project XXX. No citations except one broken one.
  • "Other initiatives include a recent announcement by the Ontario government that they will contribute half the cost of hiring an additional 250 police officers. However, this is viewed by some as a reactionary move to the increased violence." No citations, no direct connection here to youth gangs?
  • There has also been an increase in social spending, which is aimed at community projects, and getting businesses to hire "at-risk youth" to get them away from gangs. The Ontario Liberal government has also come up with an anti-gun strategy. No citations, and the one citation provided wasn't specific to youth gangs. Cycloth ( talk) 21:08, 28 May 2015 (UTC) reply

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Ethnicities and drug dealing

https://torontolife.com/city/crime/breaking-brian-shin/ talks about which ethnicities were involved in which aspects of drug dealing and crime. I wonder if other RSes talk about that sort of thing. WhisperToMe ( talk) 02:00, 1 October 2018 (UTC) reply

What’s the justification reverting other people’s edits freely?

What’s the justification reverting other people’s edits freely? Should we set up some rules to prevent this from happening again? Kennykaiyinyu ( talk) 02:10, 11 April 2019 (UTC) reply

The justification is that you've provided no sources for your claims. Use the talk page per WP:BRD before re-additions. Vaselineeeeeeee ★★★ 02:18, 11 April 2019 (UTC) reply

“Instead of reverting, please discuss the situation with the editor(s) involved and try to reach a consensus on the talk page.“ have you followed this guideline when reverting my edits? Kennykaiyinyu ( talk) 02:30, 11 April 2019 (UTC) reply

"If your edit gets reverted, do not revert again. Instead, begin a discussion with the person who reverted your change to establish consensus." Your edits were reverted, therefore they need to be discussed. If you can find the necessary sources, add it. Vaselineeeeeeee ★★★ 02:42, 11 April 2019 (UTC) reply

Is there a better source than the Huffington Post article for the 2018 comparison?

A phrase in the third paragraph in the opener states:"Toronto experienced the highest homicide rate among major Canadian cities in 2018;[14]". This may be true, but I cannot verify the statistics provided in the Huffington Post article that is cited. It claims as its sources police reports and Statistics Canada. The only Statistics Canada reports I can find focus on CMA statistics, however. [1] and [2]. I am not sure how accurate the HuffPost stats are in absence of additional information. For instance, the City of Winnipeg's population in 2018 was approx. 750,000 people and 22 murder were committed, which results in a murder rate of 2.93, not 2.6 as in the HuffPost article. The stats for the WInnipeg CMA were 2.69. I don't want to interfere in this page on my own, but thought I should note this for active editors. 50.71.236.119 ( talk) 22:44, 25 December 2020 (UTC) reply

References

  1. ^ https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/191127/t001a-eng.htm
  2. ^ https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=3510007101&pickMembers%5B0%5D=2.2&cubeTimeFrame.startYear=2015&cubeTimeFrame.endYear=2019&referencePeriods=20150101%2C20190101

Statistics and article structure

I made several improvements to the article itself and corrected the statistics in the table on the right based on the current information from the Toronto police for homicides and for shootings. However, user @ Ifixeverythingrt: reverted these changes with a comment to "incorrect statistics". I would like to discuss which statistics we should use in the article and how to improve the general structure of the article. To me it seems most prudent to use the official statistics from the Toronto Police data portal, which is where I got the updated numbers from (instead of various news articles that seem to report inconsistently from year to year). Additionally I made some changes to remove sensationalist reporting (see also topic above where this was already flagged) that was based on the 2018 increase in crime which has since subsided and added an CBC article that discusses long-term trends in crime. -- hroest 15:04, 24 August 2023 (UTC) reply

I have not had a chance to look at these changes in detail yet, but I have previously warned Ifixeverythingrt about edits to this page's statistics. Meters ( talk) 17:53, 24 August 2023 (UTC) reply
I agree with your assessment, for example using https://homicidecanada.com as a source does not seem to conform to WP:RS as its an anonymous web blog without an impressum. Clearly the official statistics from the Toronto police department should be used instead. As I said above, I have updated the table with homicide and shooting information back to 2004 (which is as far as the official data goes that the city provides). It seems that this changed some of the numbers and sometimes differs from numbers reported in the news but I rather opt for a consistent dataset than aggregating different, conflicting news reports across the years. However, there doesnt seem to be an explanation why the numbers dont always line up. -- hroest 20:13, 24 August 2023 (UTC) reply
Hello, the problem I have with the sources that you used for the table was that, the total numbers of homicides & shootings that the police provided in the 2004-2022 Microsoft Powers dashboard, was undercounted and incomplete. I'll use 2018 for example, it's been well known that Toronto had a record-breaking year in homicides back in 2018, with 98 homicides being reported, but on the 2004-2022 page, it says 92, which is uncomplete data since on the year-end section of their other homicide page (an overview on the last 5 years), they put the homicide count of 2018 at 98, which is the correct statistic. Toronto police has publicly released their 2021 Annual Statistical Report on their website, where they have listed the proper & complete crime statistics from 2017-2021. This is also from their website also. Ifixeverythingrt ( talk) 20:42, 24 August 2023 (UTC) reply
I agree that there is a discrepancy, but it is not clear to me which figures are more correct and where we could source correct statistics from. To me it seems the (possibly undercounted) figures are the only ones going back to 2004 so if we want to have a source for the full data series that seems to be the place we can source this from. At this point we dont know if the media figures are overcounted or if the official figures are undercounted. Currently I dont see a good explanation for the difference in numbers, but in the end we have to rely on sources and cannot speculate ourselves which is the "correct" count - even if we suspect there are issues with the count we still have to use a reliable source to source numbers in the article. Maybe there is a media store on the discrepancies somewhere? -- hroest 17:03, 25 August 2023 (UTC) reply
"I agree that there is a discrepancy, but it is not clear to me which figures are more correct and where we could source correct statistics from."
In my last reply, I have given you 3 different sources from the OFFICIAL Toronto police website ( 1, 2, & 3) that all have the same exact homicide/crime statistics, so it's very clear that the 2004-2022 Microsoft source that you tried to use, was undercounted, incomplete & is not the most valid source to use. Majority rules. It's very clear that we should take the information from any of the 3 different sources that I have provided.
"To me it seems the (possibly undercounted) figures are the only ones going back to 2004 so if we want to have a source for the full data series that seems to be the place we can source this from."
Why would we put information that has been proven to be incorrect/incomplete on a website like Wikipedia, where accurate information & data is mandatory? Especially when I've given you 3 other sources that have the same exact updated numbers. Official information from Toronto police is online if you do enough research. Using information from news articles should be 100% valid as long as their numbers are taken from official sources. Like this CBC article, in which they included a chart of the homicide counts on each year, going back all the way to 2004, and in the bottom right you can see the source for the chart was taken from the Toronto Police Service. So it's valid to use as long as its from a verifiable source. Here's a 2009 Annual Statistical Report, which was also officially released by the Toronto Police Services, which also shows the official crime statistics from 2005 to 2009. You can search up earlier Annual Statistical Reports (which goes back all the way to the 90s) if you wish. I think it's very clear that we've now resolved this issue. Ifixeverythingrt ( talk) 22:12, 25 August 2023 (UTC) reply
Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Crime_in_Toronto&oldid=1201234709"
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Untitled

The following was transferred from the old "Issues of Toronto" talk page April 23, 2008:


If anyone has the time to incorporate info from these links, please do so. Thanks. Mind matrix 20:24, 14 March 2008 (UTC) reply

Hey this is my first time here, but I think I have some pretty interesting statistical information from some personal research I've been doing into crime in Toronto. I'd like to point out that since Toronto has such a large population there tends to be an equalizing effect on the crime data collected. For instance, although Toronto's homicide rate will fluctuate from 2 to around 3.5, areas of the city will experience rates far in excess of the American national rate. For instance Jane and Finch area: 15 per 100,000, Malvern 12, Malton (technically Peel) 17 (all figures for 2007). If you take the cumulative homicide rate for one area (Jane/Finch) for the years 2005-2008, you would get a rate of 37 per 100,000, so the affect of this continually high rate is very serious in some parts of the city. In addition gun crime is also a serious issue in many communities, with Jane and Finch area experiencing a shooting-incidence rate of 32 per 100,000, in addition to having 90% of its homicides in 2007 being gun-related. This should all be pointed out in the section as I think it is really important people know this. I think we should also remove the Michael Moore reference, as he is definitely not an objective source. In addition, the robbery rate for Toronto is around double (228) what is listed, as most of the info at the top of the page is 10 years old. In reference to the above article, the reason for Toronto's deceptively low crime-rates, is because it is vastly larger than other Canadian cities. For instance Scarborough having a slightly smaller population than Winnipeg, had in 2007 the same homicide rate as Winnipeg had in 2004 (4.9), and yet Winnipeg was defamed by Maclean's. I've been looking through the statistical reports released by Toronto Police for 2007, but I'm not exactly sure how to edit the article, I'll have to look that up. In the meantime, sorry for being long-winded, tell me what you think! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mel215 ( talk • contribs) 22:30, 7 April 2009 (UTC) reply
Why would you compare Toronto's outlier areas with the American national average? That average includes everything from cities to low density rural areas. Why not compare the area in Toronto with the worst statistics to areas of poverty in the U.S.? Toronto's crime rates are anything but deceptive. They make clear how common instances of crime are relative to the city's size. Simply taking a figure like "80 homicides", comparing it to a smaller city's lower number and concluding that the larger city is more dangerous would be to be deceived. The crime rate statistics counteract that. It's no trick, unless you're looking for a picture that isn't there. I think you are; you try to bundle Malton's statistics in with those of Toronto outliers, when it is in Mississauga. A.Roz ( talk) 04:21, 30 January 2010 (UTC) reply


"Youth gangs" section needs significant work

This section contains 10+ assertions that have no citations. In addition, it focuses heavily on police response to youth gangs instead of more general information about youth gang-related crime in Toronto. I've added a template message and will begin working on this section — adding sources, removing unverifiable claims, etc. Cycloth ( talk) 18:44, 28 May 2015 (UTC) reply

Okay, I've done a first rewrite. Stuff I removed:

  • "Recently, gang-related incidents have been on the rise. Between the years of 1997 and 2005 over 300 gang-related deaths have occurred. American gang experts have been brought in and increased funding for programs in troubled neighbourhoods have been recently initiated. Other organizations, including the New York City-based group Guardian Angels, have come to Toronto despite the massive displeasure of city residents, city officials, and politicians. Despite these incidents, Toronto police have made significant arrests of gang members, which has resulted in fewer illegal guns on the streets." No citations.
  • In late September 2005, Toronto police arrested 44 members of the Rexdale-based "Ardwick Blood Crew" also known as A.B.C. Over 1,000 charges were laid. In May 2006, 106 additional gang members were apprehended, who were part of Rexdale's " Jamestown Crew" (a Crip gang), in the largest gang sweep in Toronto's history. In total, there were over 1,000 charges laid in the anti-gang offensive called Project XXX. No citations except one broken one.
  • "Other initiatives include a recent announcement by the Ontario government that they will contribute half the cost of hiring an additional 250 police officers. However, this is viewed by some as a reactionary move to the increased violence." No citations, no direct connection here to youth gangs?
  • There has also been an increase in social spending, which is aimed at community projects, and getting businesses to hire "at-risk youth" to get them away from gangs. The Ontario Liberal government has also come up with an anti-gun strategy. No citations, and the one citation provided wasn't specific to youth gangs. Cycloth ( talk) 21:08, 28 May 2015 (UTC) reply

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Ethnicities and drug dealing

https://torontolife.com/city/crime/breaking-brian-shin/ talks about which ethnicities were involved in which aspects of drug dealing and crime. I wonder if other RSes talk about that sort of thing. WhisperToMe ( talk) 02:00, 1 October 2018 (UTC) reply

What’s the justification reverting other people’s edits freely?

What’s the justification reverting other people’s edits freely? Should we set up some rules to prevent this from happening again? Kennykaiyinyu ( talk) 02:10, 11 April 2019 (UTC) reply

The justification is that you've provided no sources for your claims. Use the talk page per WP:BRD before re-additions. Vaselineeeeeeee ★★★ 02:18, 11 April 2019 (UTC) reply

“Instead of reverting, please discuss the situation with the editor(s) involved and try to reach a consensus on the talk page.“ have you followed this guideline when reverting my edits? Kennykaiyinyu ( talk) 02:30, 11 April 2019 (UTC) reply

"If your edit gets reverted, do not revert again. Instead, begin a discussion with the person who reverted your change to establish consensus." Your edits were reverted, therefore they need to be discussed. If you can find the necessary sources, add it. Vaselineeeeeeee ★★★ 02:42, 11 April 2019 (UTC) reply

Is there a better source than the Huffington Post article for the 2018 comparison?

A phrase in the third paragraph in the opener states:"Toronto experienced the highest homicide rate among major Canadian cities in 2018;[14]". This may be true, but I cannot verify the statistics provided in the Huffington Post article that is cited. It claims as its sources police reports and Statistics Canada. The only Statistics Canada reports I can find focus on CMA statistics, however. [1] and [2]. I am not sure how accurate the HuffPost stats are in absence of additional information. For instance, the City of Winnipeg's population in 2018 was approx. 750,000 people and 22 murder were committed, which results in a murder rate of 2.93, not 2.6 as in the HuffPost article. The stats for the WInnipeg CMA were 2.69. I don't want to interfere in this page on my own, but thought I should note this for active editors. 50.71.236.119 ( talk) 22:44, 25 December 2020 (UTC) reply

References

  1. ^ https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/191127/t001a-eng.htm
  2. ^ https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=3510007101&pickMembers%5B0%5D=2.2&cubeTimeFrame.startYear=2015&cubeTimeFrame.endYear=2019&referencePeriods=20150101%2C20190101

Statistics and article structure

I made several improvements to the article itself and corrected the statistics in the table on the right based on the current information from the Toronto police for homicides and for shootings. However, user @ Ifixeverythingrt: reverted these changes with a comment to "incorrect statistics". I would like to discuss which statistics we should use in the article and how to improve the general structure of the article. To me it seems most prudent to use the official statistics from the Toronto Police data portal, which is where I got the updated numbers from (instead of various news articles that seem to report inconsistently from year to year). Additionally I made some changes to remove sensationalist reporting (see also topic above where this was already flagged) that was based on the 2018 increase in crime which has since subsided and added an CBC article that discusses long-term trends in crime. -- hroest 15:04, 24 August 2023 (UTC) reply

I have not had a chance to look at these changes in detail yet, but I have previously warned Ifixeverythingrt about edits to this page's statistics. Meters ( talk) 17:53, 24 August 2023 (UTC) reply
I agree with your assessment, for example using https://homicidecanada.com as a source does not seem to conform to WP:RS as its an anonymous web blog without an impressum. Clearly the official statistics from the Toronto police department should be used instead. As I said above, I have updated the table with homicide and shooting information back to 2004 (which is as far as the official data goes that the city provides). It seems that this changed some of the numbers and sometimes differs from numbers reported in the news but I rather opt for a consistent dataset than aggregating different, conflicting news reports across the years. However, there doesnt seem to be an explanation why the numbers dont always line up. -- hroest 20:13, 24 August 2023 (UTC) reply
Hello, the problem I have with the sources that you used for the table was that, the total numbers of homicides & shootings that the police provided in the 2004-2022 Microsoft Powers dashboard, was undercounted and incomplete. I'll use 2018 for example, it's been well known that Toronto had a record-breaking year in homicides back in 2018, with 98 homicides being reported, but on the 2004-2022 page, it says 92, which is uncomplete data since on the year-end section of their other homicide page (an overview on the last 5 years), they put the homicide count of 2018 at 98, which is the correct statistic. Toronto police has publicly released their 2021 Annual Statistical Report on their website, where they have listed the proper & complete crime statistics from 2017-2021. This is also from their website also. Ifixeverythingrt ( talk) 20:42, 24 August 2023 (UTC) reply
I agree that there is a discrepancy, but it is not clear to me which figures are more correct and where we could source correct statistics from. To me it seems the (possibly undercounted) figures are the only ones going back to 2004 so if we want to have a source for the full data series that seems to be the place we can source this from. At this point we dont know if the media figures are overcounted or if the official figures are undercounted. Currently I dont see a good explanation for the difference in numbers, but in the end we have to rely on sources and cannot speculate ourselves which is the "correct" count - even if we suspect there are issues with the count we still have to use a reliable source to source numbers in the article. Maybe there is a media store on the discrepancies somewhere? -- hroest 17:03, 25 August 2023 (UTC) reply
"I agree that there is a discrepancy, but it is not clear to me which figures are more correct and where we could source correct statistics from."
In my last reply, I have given you 3 different sources from the OFFICIAL Toronto police website ( 1, 2, & 3) that all have the same exact homicide/crime statistics, so it's very clear that the 2004-2022 Microsoft source that you tried to use, was undercounted, incomplete & is not the most valid source to use. Majority rules. It's very clear that we should take the information from any of the 3 different sources that I have provided.
"To me it seems the (possibly undercounted) figures are the only ones going back to 2004 so if we want to have a source for the full data series that seems to be the place we can source this from."
Why would we put information that has been proven to be incorrect/incomplete on a website like Wikipedia, where accurate information & data is mandatory? Especially when I've given you 3 other sources that have the same exact updated numbers. Official information from Toronto police is online if you do enough research. Using information from news articles should be 100% valid as long as their numbers are taken from official sources. Like this CBC article, in which they included a chart of the homicide counts on each year, going back all the way to 2004, and in the bottom right you can see the source for the chart was taken from the Toronto Police Service. So it's valid to use as long as its from a verifiable source. Here's a 2009 Annual Statistical Report, which was also officially released by the Toronto Police Services, which also shows the official crime statistics from 2005 to 2009. You can search up earlier Annual Statistical Reports (which goes back all the way to the 90s) if you wish. I think it's very clear that we've now resolved this issue. Ifixeverythingrt ( talk) 22:12, 25 August 2023 (UTC) reply
Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Crime_in_Toronto&oldid=1201234709"

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