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Conscription in Greece is considered by the draftees as waste of time, since no real training takes place after bootcamp, but most feel that it's a "necessary evil", since it can't be avoided without suffering serious repercussions. Most also feel that conscription in Greece is an attempt by the Greek Armed Forces to secure a presence and say in the political life in Greece.
In 1998, the Greek Parliament voted law 2641 which mandated enrollment of Greek men and women between 18 and 60 years of age into a National Guard (Ethniki Froura). The Guard would respond to enemy action, natural disasters and all sorts of emergencies, but the law was never enforced.
Everywhere on the island, Cretan civilians, armed and otherwise, joined the battle with a savagery unexpected by either side. In one notable incident, an elderly Cretan beat a German parachutist to death with his walking stick. This was not an isolated case, and many Germans met their end by knife or club in the Cretan olive groves and villages. Once they had overcome their shock at such unprecedented resistance from a civilian population, the Germans reacted with equal ferocity. -From the Battle of Crete article.
We should discuss the possible upsides and downsides of sparing unwilling 20 year olds but accepting angry old men with canes. Surely this was discussed in the Vouli and in the press. What have they been saying?-- Jpbrenna 30 June 2005 04:30 (UTC)
Mandatory conscription is regulated by laws decided by parliament, not the armed forces which must obey civilian authority. Military rule in Greece ended 31 years ago.-- Theathenae 30 June 2005 10:44 (UTC)
Law 2641/1998 is available here. -- Skopiestelos 5 July 2005 12:23 (UTC)
Why is that picture there of the guy holding his rifle backwards? It doesn't mean they are not professional. There are many pictures of US forces doing stuff like that and they don't have conscription.
Non-Greek European Union citizens have the right of unlimited permanent residency and employment in Greece without the obligation of conscription.
The Greek Constitution states that all citizens have equal rights and obligations and that all citizens capable of bearing arms must contribute to the defense of the country. Greek conscription law [1] though, only applies to male citizens.
I am not sure why the statement "most employers in Greece dislike hiring men over 32-35 of age" relates to an article about conscription. My understanding is that conscripts in Greece are well below that age. Secondly, I would very much appreciate seeing statistics to back up this (and other) contentious claims in the article.
I've done some revision to this over the last few days. This involved moving around (many!) pieces of text under different headings. So before anyone get undully upset, your text is probably still in the article. :)
It's a picture of a Greek conscript. Where else would you put a picture of a Greek conscript? Project2501a ( talk) 09:44, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
10 years have passed since I served in the Greek army, but if I'm not mistaken PRO (DEA) served 5 months longer than the rest back in 1998-2000, or 23 months, not 18 like the rest as it is mentioned in the article.
Also, if I remember correctly most people get drafted at 19 years old, not 18, but can volunteer at 18 if they want to go a few months earlier (I did so myself).
I did no changes to the article myself because I have been out of the army for more than 9 years, so I might have missed some changes that have occured meanwhile... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.166.3.145 ( talk) 23:15, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
There are errors in the article, including the current duration of duty which is 9 months for the infantry / land forces only, and 12 months for navy / air force. Someone with a recent understanding of Greek military matters should edit it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sovjohn ( talk • contribs) 14:31, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
I served recently as a PRO while the tour was still 12 months (+5 for PROs), and added some info in the PRO section. PROs historically always served 5 months more than soldiers and conscript NCOs, because of their training period as cadets, but people now consider the 5 extra months to be a subjectively heavier extra period compared to the tour's duration: 28 vs 23 or 23 vs 18 months is not the same as 14 vs 9, which is almost 55% extra service time. Plus the tour is now considered short enough that many conscripts choose the shortest way out of it. About PROs voluntary nature, it's a subject of debate: answering "no" doesn't preclude one from the testings, it just grants him less "points" on an attributes' scale. In practice, if there's a shortage of actual volunteers, even "reluctant" candidates may be chosen. EpiVictor ( talk) 12:34, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
I have made major changes to this section. The original text was disorganized and unbalanced, often having irrelevant information. For example, there was a whole paragraph describing military helicopters being used as air ambulances, but these helicopters are not crewed by conscripts and are therefore irrelevant to the article. There were also scattered bits of relevant but unclear information, often occupying too much space. For example, several sentences described conscripts fighting forest fires, but the authors did not relate them to "attitudes towards conscription". Finally, a lot of the material had to be moved around so that there is some logical flow of information.
The current version is much better, in my opinion. It is balanced, so that is gives approximately equal weight to pro- and anti-conscription attitudes. The material is also all relevant, and its relevance is explained.
The only problem now is that almost nothing in this paragraph is cited. This wasn't my doing; I just worked with the material that was already present (and uncited since at least 2008). I've indicated the most important missing citations. Nojamus ( talk) 03:51, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
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"This price tag (810 euro for every month not served) is calculated based on the income of professional soldiers adjusted for taxes. Therefore, it is considered as indirect taxation, on out-of-country and re-repatriated Greeks, as that amount is basically salary for an entire year in Greece."
This is very dubious, as it implies that only "out-of-country" and "repatriated" Greeks have to pay this - which is not the case. Moreover, this is not considered as "indirect taxation" by all those who have actually served; they see it as a penalty paid by their fellow Greeks who chose not to "waste" 9 months of their lives. -- Knop92 ( talk) 14:53, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
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Conscription in Greece article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Conscription in Greece is considered by the draftees as waste of time, since no real training takes place after bootcamp, but most feel that it's a "necessary evil", since it can't be avoided without suffering serious repercussions. Most also feel that conscription in Greece is an attempt by the Greek Armed Forces to secure a presence and say in the political life in Greece.
In 1998, the Greek Parliament voted law 2641 which mandated enrollment of Greek men and women between 18 and 60 years of age into a National Guard (Ethniki Froura). The Guard would respond to enemy action, natural disasters and all sorts of emergencies, but the law was never enforced.
Everywhere on the island, Cretan civilians, armed and otherwise, joined the battle with a savagery unexpected by either side. In one notable incident, an elderly Cretan beat a German parachutist to death with his walking stick. This was not an isolated case, and many Germans met their end by knife or club in the Cretan olive groves and villages. Once they had overcome their shock at such unprecedented resistance from a civilian population, the Germans reacted with equal ferocity. -From the Battle of Crete article.
We should discuss the possible upsides and downsides of sparing unwilling 20 year olds but accepting angry old men with canes. Surely this was discussed in the Vouli and in the press. What have they been saying?-- Jpbrenna 30 June 2005 04:30 (UTC)
Mandatory conscription is regulated by laws decided by parliament, not the armed forces which must obey civilian authority. Military rule in Greece ended 31 years ago.-- Theathenae 30 June 2005 10:44 (UTC)
Law 2641/1998 is available here. -- Skopiestelos 5 July 2005 12:23 (UTC)
Why is that picture there of the guy holding his rifle backwards? It doesn't mean they are not professional. There are many pictures of US forces doing stuff like that and they don't have conscription.
Non-Greek European Union citizens have the right of unlimited permanent residency and employment in Greece without the obligation of conscription.
The Greek Constitution states that all citizens have equal rights and obligations and that all citizens capable of bearing arms must contribute to the defense of the country. Greek conscription law [1] though, only applies to male citizens.
I am not sure why the statement "most employers in Greece dislike hiring men over 32-35 of age" relates to an article about conscription. My understanding is that conscripts in Greece are well below that age. Secondly, I would very much appreciate seeing statistics to back up this (and other) contentious claims in the article.
I've done some revision to this over the last few days. This involved moving around (many!) pieces of text under different headings. So before anyone get undully upset, your text is probably still in the article. :)
It's a picture of a Greek conscript. Where else would you put a picture of a Greek conscript? Project2501a ( talk) 09:44, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
10 years have passed since I served in the Greek army, but if I'm not mistaken PRO (DEA) served 5 months longer than the rest back in 1998-2000, or 23 months, not 18 like the rest as it is mentioned in the article.
Also, if I remember correctly most people get drafted at 19 years old, not 18, but can volunteer at 18 if they want to go a few months earlier (I did so myself).
I did no changes to the article myself because I have been out of the army for more than 9 years, so I might have missed some changes that have occured meanwhile... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.166.3.145 ( talk) 23:15, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
There are errors in the article, including the current duration of duty which is 9 months for the infantry / land forces only, and 12 months for navy / air force. Someone with a recent understanding of Greek military matters should edit it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sovjohn ( talk • contribs) 14:31, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
I served recently as a PRO while the tour was still 12 months (+5 for PROs), and added some info in the PRO section. PROs historically always served 5 months more than soldiers and conscript NCOs, because of their training period as cadets, but people now consider the 5 extra months to be a subjectively heavier extra period compared to the tour's duration: 28 vs 23 or 23 vs 18 months is not the same as 14 vs 9, which is almost 55% extra service time. Plus the tour is now considered short enough that many conscripts choose the shortest way out of it. About PROs voluntary nature, it's a subject of debate: answering "no" doesn't preclude one from the testings, it just grants him less "points" on an attributes' scale. In practice, if there's a shortage of actual volunteers, even "reluctant" candidates may be chosen. EpiVictor ( talk) 12:34, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
I have made major changes to this section. The original text was disorganized and unbalanced, often having irrelevant information. For example, there was a whole paragraph describing military helicopters being used as air ambulances, but these helicopters are not crewed by conscripts and are therefore irrelevant to the article. There were also scattered bits of relevant but unclear information, often occupying too much space. For example, several sentences described conscripts fighting forest fires, but the authors did not relate them to "attitudes towards conscription". Finally, a lot of the material had to be moved around so that there is some logical flow of information.
The current version is much better, in my opinion. It is balanced, so that is gives approximately equal weight to pro- and anti-conscription attitudes. The material is also all relevant, and its relevance is explained.
The only problem now is that almost nothing in this paragraph is cited. This wasn't my doing; I just worked with the material that was already present (and uncited since at least 2008). I've indicated the most important missing citations. Nojamus ( talk) 03:51, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
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"This price tag (810 euro for every month not served) is calculated based on the income of professional soldiers adjusted for taxes. Therefore, it is considered as indirect taxation, on out-of-country and re-repatriated Greeks, as that amount is basically salary for an entire year in Greece."
This is very dubious, as it implies that only "out-of-country" and "repatriated" Greeks have to pay this - which is not the case. Moreover, this is not considered as "indirect taxation" by all those who have actually served; they see it as a penalty paid by their fellow Greeks who chose not to "waste" 9 months of their lives. -- Knop92 ( talk) 14:53, 10 June 2021 (UTC)