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Ive left the POV tag in place but PLEASE! reach a consensus before any more reverts/edits.-- Alexia Death 12:53, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Petri Krohn has repeatedly attempted to push disenfranchisement into this article, as he has done repeatedly before -- most notably in Bronze Soldier of Tallinn. A new twist is sliding the evaluative claim of "restrictive citizenship laws" in.
I have removed both of these claims. As of 2007, the idea that immigrants would be "disenfranchised" by "restrictive citizenship laws" is not even a notable WP:POV in Estonian politics anymore, as it was in 1992, or when Max van der Stoel of the OCSE made his infamous declarations. It mainly a private POV of Petri Krohn, and does not deserve Wikipedia as its soapbox. Digwuren 18:17, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Petri Krohn, do you have any reliable source for the "restrictive citizenship law" or "disenfranchisement" claims, or are you engaging in WP:OR? You have repeatedly reinserted them without referring any sources. Digwuren 06:50, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
As you brought up the issue of my personality, I guess it gives me the right to respond. I have over 18,000 edits on Wikipedia. Very few are about subjects a have an opinion on, many are on subjects I did not even know about. You on the other hand registered to Wikipedia only after the Bronze Soldier controversy erupted. (If you are one of the editors from Estonia who contributed to the artilce under an anonymous IP, you do not seem to have any previous edits to your IP address either.) Your edits to Wikipedia so far seem to consist only of Estonian POV-pushing. Your chief concern seems to be removing any reference to the "disenfranchisement", or the rights (and lack of them) of Estonia's Russian minority from Wikipedia. Please stop. If you want to edit Wikipedia, please contribute something usefull.
As for pushing something into this article: I did not "push" anything into the article, I wrote it! You and your Estonian friends could (and should) have done it a long ago.
And now for the positive: Thanks for contributing the " Politics" section to the article. I fully agree with what you wrote. -- Petri Krohn 08:16, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Estonians had the option of following a "democratic" path to independence. The independence movement originated in the Communist Party of Estonia. The Supreme Soviet "affirmed" Estonia's independence on August 20. By September 17 it was a full member of the United Nations. The fast acceptance of Estonia into the UN, and the almost immediate acknowledgement of its independence was based on the premise, that the new Republic of Estonia was the successor state of the Republic of Estonia (1990-1991) (Oops! you deleted the article!) and the Estonian SSR, inheriting its liabilities and citizens.
This was however unacceptable to the Congress, hence the constitutional changes of 1992. In fact Estonian school book list Lennart Meri and Mart Laar (written by Mart Laar, I hear) as the first President and Prime Minister of independent Estonia, signifying a revolutionary breach of legal continuity between the independent Estonia of Arnold Rüütel and Edgar Savisaar
-- Petri Krohn 07:47, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Petri Krohn has repeatedly attempted to refer to holders of propiskas in Estonian territory as "legal residents" in this article. This is incorrect and misleading, as the legality of the immigrants' residence, as well as the whole idea of Soviet Union's propiska laws being applicable in Estonian territory, is belied by the occupation's illegality. It could theoretically be feasible to explain this distinction. However, it is far too complicated for this particular article, so it is much better to just avoid using such a term loaded with obviously wrong, and not easily explainable, semantic content. Thus, I have removed the "legal immigrant" aspect from the reference to the propiska system.
As an aside, I'm pointing out (here, not in the article) that the whole utility of propiskas wrt citizenship was only evidentiary. In the political discourse of the time, the primary question of enforcing citizenship was "What shall we do with the *residents* that wouldn't qualify under jus sanguinis?", not "Shall we recognise the propiskas?". Digwuren 16:08, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Petri Krohn has repeatedly attempted to attach a number of weird WP:POVs into this article. I'm listing them here, as I did with Bronze Soldier of Tallinn (see Talk:Bronze Soldier of Tallinn/Archive 4#Weird manipulations).
Digwuren 08:11, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
I have tentatively restored the later developments on citizenship, as I feel it's tangentially connected to the article, and important to understand the general narrative and what might be felt as easter-egg discrepancies between the current laws and the original citizenship laws, especially since the original citizenship laws didn't get published on Estlex and thus, aren't available on the current legal repository at eRT. (I wouldn't have added citizenship issues to the article in the first place, though.) I feel unfirm in my position, though. What are the opinions of other editors on the subject? Digwuren 09:43, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Petri Krohn has expressed concern that describing Russian citizenship laws in this article may be irrelevant. I disagree, as history has shown several editors would incorrectly conclude that Estonian citizenship law contributed to statelessness if the availability of Russian citizenship wouldn't be pointed out. Digwuren 15:46, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Petri Krohn has repeatedly reverted to a bad version without bothering to discuss it. This has gotten quite disruptive. I have applied for protection of the page. Digwuren 16:35, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Now that the article is protected, we should sit down and discuss what, if anything, needs changing. Petri Krohn: what are your suggestions? Digwuren 10:30, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
The three-day protection is about to end. You have not made any suggestions. If you will, despite not having any suggestions now, start making undiscussed edits -- especially reverts -- once the protection runs out, it will be a clear indication of intent to power-play rather than develop a consensus, and, I would dare to say, a clear indication of bad faith regarding the matters discussed in earlier sections. Digwuren 23:19, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I want to know what is the source of that %, because less than 6% is mighty obscure.If you want it to stay it must have at least SOME accuracy, at least to the level where it can be said "approximately". Point me to a text where this percentage is given. If you have no such source then this is WP:OR.-- Alexia Death 16:41, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Moved from my userpage:
Hello Alexia. You reverted my edit of Congress of Estonia page as WP:UNDUE. Could you please explain your rationale? If you studied math in high school you should know that number itself (23,000 or 23,000,000) is meaningless without a context. Are 3 hairs "a lot"? Yes in a bowl of soup, not on a person's head. So I see statement "23,000 got something by following this rule" meaningless. 23K out of what number? You are not happy with a percentage? You want to post aporoximate strength of Russophone community of Estonia to give to a reader an opportunity to judge by his/herself? Be my guest, do it. But as it is now, you're just hollowing a statement out. And to clarify the header of this section, I do see attempt to present some random number out of context as a way to influence public opinion with numbers convenient to certain ethnic POV. RJ CG 17:04, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
This is so cute. Anyone with the slightest scent of common sence will know that statements like "more than 50%" can refer to anything from 50% + 1 unit to 75% or more, but "more than 38%" is almost never more than 38%+1 unit. Statement kinda sorta defends it's purpose. RJ CG 14:26, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
This article is rated Stub-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Ive left the POV tag in place but PLEASE! reach a consensus before any more reverts/edits.-- Alexia Death 12:53, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Petri Krohn has repeatedly attempted to push disenfranchisement into this article, as he has done repeatedly before -- most notably in Bronze Soldier of Tallinn. A new twist is sliding the evaluative claim of "restrictive citizenship laws" in.
I have removed both of these claims. As of 2007, the idea that immigrants would be "disenfranchised" by "restrictive citizenship laws" is not even a notable WP:POV in Estonian politics anymore, as it was in 1992, or when Max van der Stoel of the OCSE made his infamous declarations. It mainly a private POV of Petri Krohn, and does not deserve Wikipedia as its soapbox. Digwuren 18:17, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Petri Krohn, do you have any reliable source for the "restrictive citizenship law" or "disenfranchisement" claims, or are you engaging in WP:OR? You have repeatedly reinserted them without referring any sources. Digwuren 06:50, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
As you brought up the issue of my personality, I guess it gives me the right to respond. I have over 18,000 edits on Wikipedia. Very few are about subjects a have an opinion on, many are on subjects I did not even know about. You on the other hand registered to Wikipedia only after the Bronze Soldier controversy erupted. (If you are one of the editors from Estonia who contributed to the artilce under an anonymous IP, you do not seem to have any previous edits to your IP address either.) Your edits to Wikipedia so far seem to consist only of Estonian POV-pushing. Your chief concern seems to be removing any reference to the "disenfranchisement", or the rights (and lack of them) of Estonia's Russian minority from Wikipedia. Please stop. If you want to edit Wikipedia, please contribute something usefull.
As for pushing something into this article: I did not "push" anything into the article, I wrote it! You and your Estonian friends could (and should) have done it a long ago.
And now for the positive: Thanks for contributing the " Politics" section to the article. I fully agree with what you wrote. -- Petri Krohn 08:16, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Estonians had the option of following a "democratic" path to independence. The independence movement originated in the Communist Party of Estonia. The Supreme Soviet "affirmed" Estonia's independence on August 20. By September 17 it was a full member of the United Nations. The fast acceptance of Estonia into the UN, and the almost immediate acknowledgement of its independence was based on the premise, that the new Republic of Estonia was the successor state of the Republic of Estonia (1990-1991) (Oops! you deleted the article!) and the Estonian SSR, inheriting its liabilities and citizens.
This was however unacceptable to the Congress, hence the constitutional changes of 1992. In fact Estonian school book list Lennart Meri and Mart Laar (written by Mart Laar, I hear) as the first President and Prime Minister of independent Estonia, signifying a revolutionary breach of legal continuity between the independent Estonia of Arnold Rüütel and Edgar Savisaar
-- Petri Krohn 07:47, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Petri Krohn has repeatedly attempted to refer to holders of propiskas in Estonian territory as "legal residents" in this article. This is incorrect and misleading, as the legality of the immigrants' residence, as well as the whole idea of Soviet Union's propiska laws being applicable in Estonian territory, is belied by the occupation's illegality. It could theoretically be feasible to explain this distinction. However, it is far too complicated for this particular article, so it is much better to just avoid using such a term loaded with obviously wrong, and not easily explainable, semantic content. Thus, I have removed the "legal immigrant" aspect from the reference to the propiska system.
As an aside, I'm pointing out (here, not in the article) that the whole utility of propiskas wrt citizenship was only evidentiary. In the political discourse of the time, the primary question of enforcing citizenship was "What shall we do with the *residents* that wouldn't qualify under jus sanguinis?", not "Shall we recognise the propiskas?". Digwuren 16:08, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Petri Krohn has repeatedly attempted to attach a number of weird WP:POVs into this article. I'm listing them here, as I did with Bronze Soldier of Tallinn (see Talk:Bronze Soldier of Tallinn/Archive 4#Weird manipulations).
Digwuren 08:11, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
I have tentatively restored the later developments on citizenship, as I feel it's tangentially connected to the article, and important to understand the general narrative and what might be felt as easter-egg discrepancies between the current laws and the original citizenship laws, especially since the original citizenship laws didn't get published on Estlex and thus, aren't available on the current legal repository at eRT. (I wouldn't have added citizenship issues to the article in the first place, though.) I feel unfirm in my position, though. What are the opinions of other editors on the subject? Digwuren 09:43, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Petri Krohn has expressed concern that describing Russian citizenship laws in this article may be irrelevant. I disagree, as history has shown several editors would incorrectly conclude that Estonian citizenship law contributed to statelessness if the availability of Russian citizenship wouldn't be pointed out. Digwuren 15:46, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Petri Krohn has repeatedly reverted to a bad version without bothering to discuss it. This has gotten quite disruptive. I have applied for protection of the page. Digwuren 16:35, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Now that the article is protected, we should sit down and discuss what, if anything, needs changing. Petri Krohn: what are your suggestions? Digwuren 10:30, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
The three-day protection is about to end. You have not made any suggestions. If you will, despite not having any suggestions now, start making undiscussed edits -- especially reverts -- once the protection runs out, it will be a clear indication of intent to power-play rather than develop a consensus, and, I would dare to say, a clear indication of bad faith regarding the matters discussed in earlier sections. Digwuren 23:19, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I want to know what is the source of that %, because less than 6% is mighty obscure.If you want it to stay it must have at least SOME accuracy, at least to the level where it can be said "approximately". Point me to a text where this percentage is given. If you have no such source then this is WP:OR.-- Alexia Death 16:41, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Moved from my userpage:
Hello Alexia. You reverted my edit of Congress of Estonia page as WP:UNDUE. Could you please explain your rationale? If you studied math in high school you should know that number itself (23,000 or 23,000,000) is meaningless without a context. Are 3 hairs "a lot"? Yes in a bowl of soup, not on a person's head. So I see statement "23,000 got something by following this rule" meaningless. 23K out of what number? You are not happy with a percentage? You want to post aporoximate strength of Russophone community of Estonia to give to a reader an opportunity to judge by his/herself? Be my guest, do it. But as it is now, you're just hollowing a statement out. And to clarify the header of this section, I do see attempt to present some random number out of context as a way to influence public opinion with numbers convenient to certain ethnic POV. RJ CG 17:04, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
This is so cute. Anyone with the slightest scent of common sence will know that statements like "more than 50%" can refer to anything from 50% + 1 unit to 75% or more, but "more than 38%" is almost never more than 38%+1 unit. Statement kinda sorta defends it's purpose. RJ CG 14:26, 14 August 2007 (UTC)