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The aim of this article is allegedly to present the bloodletting at the end of World War II. Instead it already questions the FACT that it was commited by the Yugoslav Partisan Movement in the intraductory sentence! It's ridiculous that the chapter "Killings" is constituted from two lines, as well as the lack of a description of the crimes committed. This is purely denial and relativisation of a historical crime. Ethnic cleansing or crimes against humanity, should be stated in the first paraghraph, "killings" is preposterous. "Killings were killings" is childish and not really a decent English sentence, but the main goal of some here seems to be the denial. Disappointing. Transylvanus 20:55, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
How come the German and Hungarian ethnic cleansing is referred to as "crimes of the occupiers", whereas the Yugoslavs´ murders of Hungarians are simply "killings"??
So the massacres of Serbs are "undisputed, historical facts" but the massacres of Hungarians are "a very controversial issue"? Christ, what double standards. As far as I can tell from these articles, both events can and should be labelled as "killings" or "massacres".
The aritcle has being attacked by the Serb nationalist (User:PANNONIAN). I wanted to make a memorial artcile for the victims, but he can't stand that we should talk about the innocent civilian victims of the partisans. HunTheGoaT 18:31, 29 September 2006 (CEST)
Do you please have some reasonable explanation for this edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=1944-1945_Killings_in_Ba%C4%8Dka&diff=78874310&oldid=78791238 You changed numbers, but you left here a sources that present different numbers to show that they in fact present "your" numbers. There is one word for it - a falsification!!!
Now here is list of sources, and a quotation what they claim:
So, let write this article in accordance with Wikipedia policy:
The number of killed Hungarians is much higher than 20000, and 4000 is only ridiculous. My source is the Hungarian Wikipedia, the Duna TV and hungarian people living in the Bácska. But the fact is that nobody knows exactly how many people died in these killings. I could also mention the ten thousands of Hungarians who died in the prisoner-camps. Öcsi 11:08, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
"The number of killed Hungarians is much higher than 20000, and 4000 is only ridiculous"
I am sorry, but it is your personal opinion and nothing else. I simply presented here what my sources say and it is in accordance with verifiability policy of Wikipedia. Whether you personally like or dislike this data is only your own problem. Regarding your sources, you use Hungarian Wikipedia as a source? Is this a joke or something? I hope that you know that anybody could edit that article on Hungarian Wikipedia and could write anything there. As for Duna TV, I can watch that TV on my cable television, and I just can say that they too much times showed a map of Greater Hungary in their TV program. The only correct thing that you said is "that nobody knows exactly how many people died in these killings", so our job is not to present only those numbers that we personally like more, but numbers from ALL sources. PANONIAN (talk) 14:43, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Nothing, except PANONIAN's own researches. Nationalism rules. But not on Wikipedia. Tag removed, and will be considered as vandalism, untill a valuable reason won't be shown here for 1. what facts are not correct 2. wich part is POV, and why, and what text would be good instead of it. -- 195.56.80.183 16:17, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Read the books mentoned in the notes section dude. Some of them are in serbian. I put some more in, and changed those refs to those wich are in the hungarian one. (books) -- 195.56.80.183 18:07, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
The page, you disputed has a BIBLIOGRAPHY part, wich means, they put the text seen there, from these:
No more notes needed. Yours sincerely. -- 195.56.80.183 18:13, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I've done a bit of cleanup, still needs a lot more. - Francis Tyers · 22:24, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
The source that was added is far from impartial or academic "hungarian-history.hu", come on, the site is called "Serbian Vendetta in Bacska" hah. - Francis Tyers · 09:15, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
If your study of site is deeper, you would see that this is an e-book version of the book published in Budapest in 1991. I recommend you to read chapters from "Cover" to "Vendetta. Retaliation Multiplied", because of discernment. Enough academic? Bendeguz 19:34, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
One of the main principles of collective amnesia is: "If we don't talk about events, the events didn't happen." You modified this principle to: "If we don't have reliable (English) sources, the events didn't happen." (alleged is your word). The tragedy of losers and small nations is that, there is nobody to write their history, except themselves.
From interview with author:
I: Were your hopes fulfilled in the form of Serbian writers making the same symbolic act of collective regret, if not a confession for their crimes like the one you had made in Cold Days .
A: None of my hopes were fulfilled. A few Serbian writers voiced their opinion that in World War II almost two million people lost their lives in their country, so these few tens of thousands of Hungarians should not be of interest to them, especially not as writers.(COLD DAYS - A NOVEL AND A FILM, Page 18)
Collective amnesia and denial , instead of regret. This is - {{ Fact}}, Serbia even now.
To do (warm up your cleaning-machine Francis)
(to be continued) Bendeguz 22:10, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
I've merged this into Occupation of Vojvodina, where it looks much more at home. - Francis Tyers · 12:11, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
1. This article is below any acceptable standard, in its present form seems more like a stub. 2. This article is seriously biased.
1. The article does not fulfil the promise of the title, the Chapter entitled Killings contains TWO LINES of low quality "explanation".
The English of the intraductory sentence is extremely poor.
There aren't any sites mentioned, in contrast with the "Occupation of Vojvodina, 1941-1944" article: "include Novi Sad, BeÄej, Vilovo, Gardinovci, GospoÄ‘inci, ÄurÄ‘evo, Žabalj, Lok, MoÅ¡orin, Srbobran, Temerin, Titel, ÄŒurug, and Å ajkaÅ¡."
The pictures aren't very relevant.
2. The title in itself is strange enough. Killings as the most appropriate term for the events? As a comparison articles dealing with Yugoslavia of the same era:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleiburg_massacre ,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foibe_massacres, or:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Vojvodina%2C_1941-1944 (the author, Panonius? speaks about "war crime" and "the mass murder of the civilians" in connection with the 1942 raid. I agree with those terms, but why did he restore "killings instead of my "ethnic cleansing"? The lowest estimate given by the present (shameful) page is 4000, compare this with 3800 after the 1942 raid. How is this not a massacre, war crime or ethnic cleansing???
In the same sentence "allegedly"! Come on! Were there any other armed men capable of committing a crime on this scale? What are you suggesting? That not all of them were officially members? Some of them lost their Partisan ID?
"This was due to the fact that members of these two ethnic groups showed the largest level of collaboration with the Axis authorities and committed most of the war crimes against the citizens of Vojvodina." This is not a fact only an accusation, or an excuse for the perpetrators or war criminals. As far as I know War Crimes are War Crimes regardless from their origin.
"many citizens of Vojvodina belonging to all ethnic groups joined the partisan resistance movement to fight against occupation" is this a factual sentence or something taken from a communist internationalist fairy tale?
"Some Hungarian houses were sacked and one number of Hungarian civilians was executed and tortured. [10] Some women and children were raped. [11] Some men who were able to work were deported to Siberia." This is the most disgraceful sentence, "some" as a cover for 4000 to 50000 murders plus rapes and all the others, this is the clearest example of downplaying of a Second World War tragedy I have ever seen on Wikipedia.
I am afraid that the moderators of the page aren't really experts in the field. Thus, please consider the mistakes made and do not restore the original version when I make a correction.
Transylvanus 22:44, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Right. I'm glad for receiving some explanations, I will try to adress each of them during the week.
1. I have nothing to do with "Great Hungarian propaganda". 2.This is still a terribly unbalanced article. As a historian my concerns are connected to terminology, and the usage of language and that of the sources.
"unreliable Hungarian sources" Of course one could argue against every book and article. My problem here is that the only "reliable" sources according to the present form of the articles are Yugoslav ones. Now that is ridiculous. My suggestion is to present two narratives. 1. The official Yugoslav or serb version (preferably not simply based on the postwar idea of collective guilt as the present version does) 2. A Hungarian version (or a non extremist Hungarian one). Cseres Tibor for instance can not be interpreted as "irredentist". I can elaborate on his views if there is request for it.
Francis Tyers requested more reliable (non Yugoslav, non Hungarian) sources. I have two problems with this. Firstly, avoiding local sources is not accepted as a scholarly approach. (You can't study ancient history without the Greek or Latin etc. sources.) Sources from at least the two most affected nations have to be included. Or get rid of the serb sources? No, you have to use Cseres at least. Secondly, aricles published in the English speaking world were also mainly written by authors of Hungarian or South Slavic origin. The most respected of them was probably Jozo Tomasevich at Stanford University. However, I'm not sure how much of their research was based on primary sources. Their conclusions were reached in the 80's, when for example the shocking results of the Slovenian exhumations were not known (296 mass graves with 180000 (!) corpses, see Bleiburg massacre), which is four times more than Tomasevich's estimate!
Anyway, I will get the Tomasevich, and some other publications as well (Barbara Jelavich). I will try to balance the article by including their results.
For the short term. 1.While no one disputes the internationalist character of the Parisan Army it still had a nationalist(South Slavic) layer in the same way as the Stalinist Soviet Union did; ethnic cleansings happened here and there as well.
2. The term "Killings" is in no way acceptable, it is simply not in line with the standard of other Wikipedia or any scholarly war crime related article. Individual killigs occured during the 1942 raid or around Bleiburg as well. Those Wikipedia articles use the right terms: massacres, mass murder, war crimes. My suggestion is "Massacres in BaÄka".
3. The "Killings" chapter and "some houses". I very much doubt that you can describe at least 4000 deaths by saying "some". If you(?) don't want to reveal the numbers you should at least say somethig like "hundreds", "dozens" "several thousands" or "some hundreds". Neither can I imagine that a serious publication described the number of those affected in such terms, so the problem is with our interpreter.
Please at least change "killings", and specify the numbers.
Bests, Transylvanus 20:16, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for drawing my attention to the Wikipedias own massacre article PANONIAN, but I don't see there anything weakening my argument. You've quoted individual events of deliberate and direct mass killing. Yes at least 4000 (possibly ten times more) as agreed in the article is definitely "mass" and deliberate that is again supported by the article (pre-planning, orders). The massacre aricle also says: "A massacre shall be considered the execution of five or more people, in the same place, as part of the same operation and whose victims were in an indefensible state." That's spot on. I am convinced that you as a local historian (localpatriot,researcher?) must be aware of at least a dozen sites which correspond to this description. I have no doubt about the meaning of massacre and killing in the English speaking world, but I also checked their relevance in Wikipedia, the result is obvious "killings" only appears in this article to describe an atrocity. Massacre on the other hand is widely used. The Boston Massacre is used to describe the killing of 5 civilians on one day, while the Bleiburg massacre was committed during a longer term, involving tens of thousends. Still the English grammar allows the usage of the singular form massacre.
Mind you none of them is marked as POV only for using this term.
My reason for recommending the term massacre(or massacres) is to show our condemnation. It covers the "never again" message. I have no objection to use it when Hungarian are crimes are described.
Due to my profession I know that those times had different standards and I understand their emotions,["Massacres are the fruit of bitterness, and of the calculations of leaders." concluded Milovan Djilas in his "Wartime" after describing the massacre of some Italian prisoners (translated by Michael B. Petrovich, 1977. edition, London page 338.)] but I'm convinced that in the 21. century our norm ought to be different. Bests, Transylvanus 02:01, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Don't get into personal attacks. That only shows your lack of arguments. 1. You can not bend a language as you wish. Terminology is important in history. 2. The war was brutal enough in the whole area, there is no need to denigrate the partisans. The Foibe massacres and the Bleiburg massacre proves this perfectly, Djilas is not denying it either. I'm not saying that one side was better or worse than the other! Individual killings occured in each of the quoted cases but they all happened "as part of the same operation" Again: "A massacre shall be considered the execution of five or more people, in the same place, as part of the same operation and whose victims were in an indefensible state." Transylvanus 09:29, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm gettig bored by these "irredentist" and "Nazi" charges. Do I have to assume that every massacre article in Wikipedia, describing Allied war crimes is motivated by some form of fascism??? This must be a joke.
Instead of accusations we should work together to improve these articles. I can find the relevant English and Hungarian articles, while you and Duja might check articles, books published in Yugoslavia.
Maybe we could write a new article in paralel with the Occupation of Vojvodina, 1941-1944. Let's call it "The liberation of Vojvodina in 1944-45". This could include a "War cimes committed during the liberation" with chapters about massacres and individual killings. The crimes and rapes commited around Belgrade by the Red Army leading to a confrontation between Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union could be mentioned as well. The Aftermath should deal for instance with the post-war trial of war criminals. I'm sure that if we trust each other and cooperate a consensus can be reached. Bests, Transylvanus 09:47, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi Transylvanius. Write out a RM survey, and report personal attacks here: Wikipedia:Personal attack intervention noticeboard. Since discussing with PANONIAN unfortunately leads to nothing in recent times, whatever you do, he'll revert, and starts a endless polemia on the talk page(s), to prevent NPOVing of the article(s).-- Vince hey, yo! :-) 16:39, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
This is a massacre, genocide, and/or ethnic cleansing, since it occured on the winter of 44-45, within 2 month.
There's no mention of the internal camps of Gakovo, Jarek, Kruševlje, Molidorf, Knićanin, and Sremska Mitrovica where between 1945-1948 another 70,000 german and hungarian civilians died, so in fact this page is only abt those massacres, wich are made by the Yugoslav armies, and does not mention the german fatalities, so also one sided. The full number of dead ppl is around 80-100 000 (!). This WAS a mass genocide, not "killings". -- Vince hey, yo! :-) 16:55, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
It's a pity that no one seems ready to do more work to improve the article. Accepting minor changes would already make a difference. Available English publications on ethnic cleansing alone: Fires of hatred : ethnic cleansing in twentieth-century Europe / Norman M. Naimark., Redrawing nations : ethnic cleansing in East-Central Europe, 1944-1948 / edited by Philipp Ther and Ana Siljak., Ethnic cleansing in twentieth-century Europe / editors, Steven Béla Várdy and T. Hunt Tooley, German scholars and ethnic cleansing, 1919-1945 / edited by Ingo Haar and Michael Fahlbusch ; foreword by Georg G. Iggers., The dark side of democracy : explaining ethnic cleansing / Michael Mann. etc.
Transylvanus 17:32, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Duja. Due to my other duties I need a few weeks to locate and read the available English sources, but ideally we should also include the Yugoslav version. Could you possibly have a look at the sources published in Serbian language? We could than present the claims of each side, hopefully reaching some kind of consensus. Bests, Transylvanus 11:35, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
The article in the current form is severely biased, it presents the mass murder of Hungarians as a "justifiable collective revenge" for the atrocities committed by the occupants between 1941-44 (which undeniably happened, also out of revenge for Partisan violence against regular forces and the local population). It also fails to mention the sadistic cruelty by which most of the murders were carried out (impaling, mutilation, torture). See the book of Tibor Cseres as a reference. Ãrpád 07:13, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
1944-1945 Killings in BaÄka → 1944-1945 massacre in BaÄka (or 1944-1945 ethnic cleansing in BaÄka, however most popular name of the event (in hungarian) is "1944-1945 blood feud in BaÄka") – the page was illegally moved [6] to recent name, wich does not describe the action properly, and Serbian POV. The death of 35,000 ppl within three month can not be describet as "killings". It was a massacre, and an ethnic cleansing. It was a feud for the 1941 annexation of Northern Vojvodina by Hungary. (see refs, and discussion above) Vince hey, yo! :-) 15:30, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~ Vince hey, yo! :-) 15:30, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
The discussion above is ongoing since Nov 23, 2006. 6 month is more than enough to decide something. No compromise reached, so survey is the next step. Lots of wiki policies/guidelines are on enwiki, such as „ Don't be a dickâ€, PANONIAN. -- Vince hey, yo! :-) 22:55, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
There's a section, called "Discussion" below (here). How about adding your comments here, instead of other parts in the survey? I put them here. You know what? I never brought not really known WP policies, but now on, I'll. I'm just avoiding instruction creep, because Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy, so I kindly ask you to stop wikilawyering. Thanks. -- Vince hey, yo! :-) 23:48, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
PS: I'm intrested, what did you consider a personal attack here? I just attracted your attention to a WP policy, named Don't be a dick. Or from now on bringing policies will be pa-s also? -- Vince hey, yo! :-) 23:59, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
PS: All right, don't stick to rules, if you're the one, who has to keep them. :)) and turn the survey into a mess. I like ppl with double standards. -- Vince hey, yo! :-) 22:16, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
There was already a dispute which numbers should be mentioned in the preface part and dispute was solved by moving all numbers to separate section. The exact number of killed people was never exactly established and estimations range between 4,000 and 50,000, with claims that between 20,000 and 35,000 is most probable number. So, if we mention any of those numbers without other numbers, that would be POV because we have no proof that any of the numbers is correct one - there are only different estimations, and since this is the case, all estimations have to be mentioned together. In fact, we can even move all numbers from the separate section to preface part, but my point is that all numbers should be together, no matter if that is in the preface or in separate section. PANONIAN (talk) 22:56, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Can someone give an update on the neutrality issues here? The tag had been around a year, where does the article stand now?-- BirgitteSB 22:51, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
PANONIAN you dirty nazionalist, who are you backing?? "Claim that it was ethnic cleansing is wrong because if the intention of the partisans was to perform ethnic cleansing, then why other Hungarians were not ethnically cleansed too?" ARE___ YOU___ NUTS?:?????? :O why others were not cleansed???? YOU ARE IN NO WAY A HISTORIAN JUST A WILD SERB PROPAGANDA PRODUCT, YOU ARE DEFENDING WAR CRIMINALS AND GENOCIDE, YOU D BE THE FIRST TO DO THAT TOO, YES I M GOING PERSONAL! ABOUT NUMBERS: 10.000 JUST IN CSUROG! COMPLETELY UNPOPULATED! SURVIVORS COMMEMORATE IT EVERY YEAR WHERE 3000 INNOCENT WERE BURIED, THEY BRING FLOWERS JUST TO HAVE THEM TRASHED BY THE DAY AFTER! BY PEOPLE NOT AS SOPHISTICATED AS YOU! ABOUT OBJECTIVES: THERE ARE DEATH LISTS AND OFFICIAL ORDERS CLEARLY ON ETHNIC CLEANSING! VICTIMS ARE NO WAY "COLLABORATORS" JUST EVERYDAY PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND ME! EXCEPT FOR YOU BACKING WAR CRIMES! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.131.154.159 ( talk) 10:35, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
CAPSLOCK went to dear PANONIAN, he seems to like it. head responsibles of killings in vojvodina were condemned to death in hungary right away! while those killings went all the winter long, systematically and with state support! not to mention the aftermath where memorials (oh well...speaking) were forbidden, mass graves are built upon in the next years, or even exhumated for industrial use of remnants! making glue. but can we all just cite horribilities? past is past. but mr P and his likes destroy truth today. and facing the facts would already be a step towards tomorrow! some destroy the memorials, some destroy the facts. one day P will say it was a tea party! :( i'm taking the numbers from black lists. the juridiction and guiltiness in ethnic cleansing from military orders. known documents today! not to mention the survivors and executors still alive in numbers! the witnesses! but there comes a "historian" who plays with numbers and adjectives to relativise events. with brilliant phrases like "should ve it been an ethnic cleansing, why didn't they cleanse other hungarians?" he also adds proper contributions at science... pisses me off, really. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.97.19.203 ( talk) 02:09, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Ok, now you deleted sourced data with explanation "not important". It is clear now that your goal here is exactly propaganda against Serbia and an attempt to present Serbia as country where "minorities are persecuted" and where "monuments of minorities are destroyed". this source clearly states that damaging of monument was performed by two young non-adult boys, who were arrested by the Serbian police. If we mention that something was damaged then it is important to mention who damaged that. Seems that you purposely trying to write this sentence in a way that state of Serbia looks guilty for minority monument damaging and that Serbia, because of this, should no longer govern territories where "persecuted minorities" are living. I am sorry, but we have a source that say who damaged monument and there is no reason why this should not be mentioned. I do not insist that statement of Šandor Egereši is mentioned, but fact that boys who damaged monument were arrested by Serbian police is very important. PANONIAN 22:36, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
Also, I have to mention some other stuff:
1. The part about the massacre in Bezdan is very poorly written, and contains a number of false information, and the English there isn't very great. Cseres' work here: http://mek.oszk.hu/03300/03393/03393.htm#16 does not mention that the Russians have stopped the bloodshed, only that as soon as the Russians forces arrived, the partisans left. Also, the 118 victims weren't shot into the Danube, but they were forced to march to a forest near Isterbác, where they were made to dig their own graves and in which they were shot into in groups of twelve, according to all the witnesses. This whole part should be re-written, because it's not backed up by any sources.
2. For the accuracy's sake we should mention the reason of the significant difference in numbers provided by the various sources. For most of the readers it might not be clear that the post-war communist regimes both in Yugoslavia and Hungary didn't really tolerate the research of this event, so the estimates are relying on the post-communist researches.
3. The ethnic cleansing aspect: the definition of ethnic cleansing also means the mass deportation of people. It is true that the massacre of Serbians was a political act, to punish the collaborators, but the German part of the whole event seems to be a true ethnic cleansing. Of course, it's not true that the whole cleansing was against the Hungarians, it was against the Germans. According to Niall Ferguson (book War of the World page 584.) 13 million Germans were relocated from Eastern Europe to Germany, those from Vojvodina were part of them. Checking the records of the census in Vojvodina ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_vojvodina) the 90% of Germans disappeared from the area by 1948 - of course it's true that most of them left as the Nazi withdrawal. The others were forced to leave, or were killed. Knowing these data in seems that the ethnic cleansing of Germans was going on here, since the whole mass deportation of Germans is often described us such. The Hungarians were much more likely the victims of simple ethnic hatred rather than an organised act of ethnic cleansing, because in 1948 there's "only" 10% loss of Hungarian population since 1941. I think we should include these facts. We could leave this part in: "Some Hungarian historians are introducing idea that such killings were an ethnic cleansing of Hungarians" but we should put the data here, which shows that since the Hungarian population loss is much less than the German, so it's quite unlikely that it was a direct cleansing action against the Hungarians. We might even put a whole section which is describing these facts.
4. I read the argument about the killings/massacre term, and I think that both should be mentioned. The "killings" argument is true, because it wasn't a fully organized act, but a longer chain of events with multiple locations. But we also can't overlook the fact that in some cases (e.g.: Brezdán) clearly an organised massacre is what happened. I think we should put edit the first sentence this way: "The 1944–1945 killings in Vojvodina (or Vojvodina massacre) were executions of several...", so in this way we respect both POV's, and the objectivity doesn't really get damaged, since in Hungary we still call these events a massacre. yossarian44 03:30, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
-- JeffGBot ( talk) 16:29, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
After reading the arguments regarding the use of the words 'killing' and 'massacre', a more appropriate term would be purge for these reasons:
1. More than one ethnic groups were killed, including Rus - Russyns (which wasn't mentioned in the article).
2. Similar models can be found, for example Stalinist and Maoist purges.
3. Partisans who committed these purges were in the most part, politically motivated by Tito.
4. The killing of the intelligentsia.
What is missing from the article is the sense of retribution, which has been identified by Hungarian and Serb sources as well as taking from models in the past:
1. Hatred by the Orthodox Church factions against the Roman Catholic Church.
2. Ethnicity based on previous migration and settlement from Austro-Hungary, Croatia, Germany, Slovenia. There is a 450 year history of this.
3. Serbian Partisan levels of hatred, precluded the idea of resettlement or expulsion.
4. Following point 3, partisan hatred and the moral and ethically debased forms of torture they used against some of their victims.
5. Most contentiously, Partisans' inability for judgement or trial. Accusations by local Serbs against those of higher socio-economic status or of those who were in competition, those who owned land and houses.
6. Lack of education of the partisan Serbs. Xenophobic and Fascist motivations evident by some groups, replicating the Nazi fascism they were trying to purge.
7. Lack of time and therefore opportunity. As soon as the Russian liberation forces came through (some Bulgar forces as well), the partisans either stopped or went away then returned after they passed through.
8. Inconsistency. On many occasions, partisan attitudes varied from place to place and over time.
None of this is in the article.
As for Nationalism, it should be stated within the article that Nationalistic tendencies bias the current information available and that all viewpoints should be aired.
The comment about 'peer reviewed sources' is interesting in that very little is available, not just on this topic but generally over the whole of Eastern European history. Empirical sources do exist and have been used in arguably nationalistic histories. All historians argue and there is no reason not to include these sources in an explanatory manner. Htcs ( talk) 15:09, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
I added a small section on Rusyns. Unfortunately, the English of Tibor Cseres work is not very clear. I think he was trying to say that the 1944 partisans were also motivated by the fact that the Rus were not attacked by the Hungarian forces in 1941, therefore they deserved punishment? Hopefully others may be able to clarify this point.
His main thesis is that the partisan actions were based on revenge against the Hungarian forces that were putting down rebellions in 1941. I have stayed away from this, although he states that revenge, particularly on the local level was common-place. Some community leaders, like Serbian Orthodox priests, defended RC priests and targetted ethnics and the partisans generally left them alone. In other localities, the Orthodox priest outright accused the RC priest and congregation because they preached that they worshipped God as the God of Hungary (Magyar Isten). So I am personally interested if there were any factionalism between Greek Catholic, Eastern Catholic, Roman Catholic, Lutheran (Evangelical) and other denominations from other sources.
In any case, a section on Partisan Motivation should be added, perhaps including religious factions and socio-economic factions. Htcs ( talk) 06:06, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
I wouldn't put it exactly like that. There is history that he is reporting like numbers, places, names, events. But then there is his argument. I think it is his argument that is flawed, which makes the reader think that his history is also flawed. It is a valuable source as he uses first hand empirical accounts so it shouldn't be discounted. Confirmation of numbers would be good, but that would mean looking at RC church registrations (Matrica) and civil registration books for every town he mentions. Then there is the 100 year law. It will take another 38 years before those records are public domain. Then the same has to be done for Serbs, Germans, Rus etc. University research with co-operative governments. The subject matter is too hot anyway. Htcs ( talk) 11:52, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
Before anyone starts making objections, the title change was discussed at length with PANNONIA on the talk page. Readability and accuracy have improved. The article has a lot more NPOV and it has expanded to include Central Serbia. The principal reason for the change was that the actions committed by the partisans were directed by the Serbian military governance at the time. This by definition is a purge and not 'killing' or 'massacre'; terms that denotes nationalistic POV which must be avoided. Htcs ( talk) 15:18, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
This article is not neutral at all. It looks like the biggest problem is the user Pannonian and his nationalist point of view. HE would like to prove that this area is serb, and there are no place for another view and nationalities. However, the fact is:
Most of Vojvodina became part of the Kingdom of Hungary in the 11th century and remained in Hungary until about 900 years later (1918/1920), except for the period of the Ottoman conquest (see below).
Its demographic balance started changing at the end of the 14th century, as it welcomed Serbian refugees fleeing from territories conquered by the Ottoman army. The first Turkish census, of 1557-58, described the northern parts of the territory having a Hungarian majority. Large numbers of Serbs were settled as a conscious policy on the part of the Habsburg emperor at the end of the 17th century. They were granted widespread exceptions and communal rights, in exchange for providing a border militia that could be mobilised against invaders from the south, as well as in case of civil unrest in Hungary.
Regarding killings, even serbian minds are changing, and Pannonian views and nationalism is minority now. Previously unknown fact are emerging, and this article should be updated: I will cite only serbian sources, as everything what is not serbian is unacceptable for user Pannonian. http://www.autonomija.info/sacinjen-spisak-s-imenima-85000-civila-pobijenih-u-vojvodini-u-drugom-svetskom-ratu.html
further:
MeÄ‘u pomenutih 84.000 žrtava, koje je pobrojao istraživaÄki tim profesora Živkovića, daleko najveći broj, taÄnije preko 47.000, Äine Srbi, dok je izmeÄ‘u 1944. i 1948. stradalo oko 17.000 Nemaca, a naroÄito u tom posleratnom periodu, pobijeno je i oko 6.000 MaÄ‘ara.
Medjutim ovde sam Zivkovic kaze sledece:
Novinar: E. Marjanov http://www.slobodnavojvodina.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3880 Živkoviæ navodi da je u Vojvodini u tom periodu stradalo ukupno 97.000 civila raznih nacionalnosti. Dr Dragoljub Živkoviæ kaže da je za vreme Drugog svetskog rata u Vojvodini bilo 72 logora. Toliko su držali i partizani posle rata. Živkoviæ takoðe kaže da je od 97.000 žrtava koje su stradale posle rata bilo 20.000 dece starosti izmeðu jedne i sedam godina. On istièe da su meðu žrtvama pronašli i 9.800 ljudi bez nacionalnosti.
Prema podacima koje smo mi sakupili u Vojvodini, stradalo je 20.000 vojvoðanskih Nemaca. Taj broj æe biti veæi pošto struèna ekipa Vojvoðanske akademije nauka, koja je od Anketnog odbora Skupštine Vojvodine svojevremeno preuzela projekat, još nije obradila podatke iz Baèkog Jarka i Molindorfa. Za taj posao nedostaje nam oko 2.000 evra. Prema našim procenama, u tim mestima stradalo je oko 7.000 nemaèkih civila, tako da raèunamo da je posle Drugog svetskog rata pobijeno oko 30.000 nemaèkih civila
ISto dalje, sledeci clanak: http://www.bulkeser.de/srpskiwebsait-3.html Dr Dragoljub Živkovic kaze: Do sada smo došli do broja od 110000 stradalih Vojvodana i Vojvodanki. Sva dosadašnja istraživanja su išla do brojke od 70000 stradalih. Utvrdili smo i veoma velike razlike u pogledu tvrdenja koliko je ljudi stradalo iz koje nacionalne skupine. Važno je da kažem da ovo istraživanje pod stradalnicima (žrtvama) podrazumeva ljude koji nisu nosili pušku, dakle nisu pripadali vojnim formacijama. Rec je pre svega o deci, ženama, starcima, mladim ljudima koji nisu hteli da nose pušku. Nažalost, najveci broj stradalnika su sasvim nevini ljudi.
It means, the number is at least 110000 people, and this number is growing.
This article from 2009 confirms the number of 110000, and says "komisija je utvrdila oko 6.500 imena mađarskih žrtava, a pretpostavlja se da ih je bilo još oko 1.000. " http://www.slobodnavojvodina.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=81:pokrajinski-anketni-odbor-dao-dobre-temelje-meudravnoj-komisiji&catid=4:fokus&Itemid=17 Ssh in use ( talk) 00:14, 18 November 2011 (UTC) ssh_in_use Ssh in use ( talk) 23:22, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Regarding link to youtube movie that I removed, problem is not the ethnic origin of author of that movie but obvious fact that movie is a forgery. Here is evidence for that which could be examined in two easy steps:
So, Ssh in use, tell me, which Wikipedia policy supports propagation of obvious forgeries on this web site? PANONIAN 19:10, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
The lead section of this article has had sourced content removed three times. This will be reported as 3R violation. I was in the process of editing the lead to improve its grammar and re-insert the fact that the victims were also Serbs (in fact probably mostly Serbs), when the third reversion occurred. This is my proposed lead:
The Communist purges in Serbia in 1944–1945 were purges committed by members of the Yugoslav Partisan Movement and post-war communist authorities after they gained control over Serbia in 1944. Most of these purges were committed between October 1944 and May 1945. During this time, several tens of thousands of people were executed. The victims were of different ethnic backgrounds, but were mostly Serbs, Hungarians, Germans and Croats. Different sources provide different estimates regarding the number of victims. According to one source, at least 80,000 people were executed in the whole of Serbia, [1] while other source states that the number of victims was more than 100,000. [2] Some 40,000 Hungarian civilians were tortured or summarily executed, [3] and tens of thousands of fleeing Croatian soldiers and civilians were slaughtered. [3] dubious The names of about 4,000 individual Germans who were killed by the Partisans are known, but it is likely that many more ethnic Germans were murdered. [4] These events during the fall of 1944 are often referred to as "bloody autumn". [5] [4] [6]
Peacemaker67 ( talk) 08:23, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
This article inflates number of people who lost their lives in aftermath of WWW. Only relevant sources is Serbian state commission. So far the commission has found only 54,000 men (this article claim that 56,000 died alone). Many of them weren't "purged", but died in combat and in concentration camps (Germans) due to poor conditions. Many who lost lives were notorious quislings and war criminals. --  Bojan  Talk 04:45, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
Among those those names are people who certainly weren't purged (but counted in death toll) are Dragoljub Mihailović [8], Milan Nedić [9], Aćif Hadžiahmetović [10], NeÅ¡ko Nedić (KIA) [11], Nikola Kalabić [12], Svetozar Vujković [13], Dragi Jovanović [14], Tanasije Dinić [15], Velibor Jonić [16], Dragoslav RaÄić (KIA) [17], DragiÅ¡a Vasić (most probably killed by ustashas( [18], Dragutin Keserović [19], Vojislav LukaÄević [20], Milorad Mojić (killed by ustashas) [21], Kosta MuÅ¡icki [22], Milan Aćimović (KIA) [23]
Regarding Hungarisans, the author of Kontrapress article read Tibor Cseres's book and found that his estimates are groundless. He reported than Cseres claims that were more Hungarian casualties in some towns than they had Hungarian residents. Also, the author concluded that many Hungarian were killed in towns that were affected by Novi Sad raid such as Čurug and Žabalj. So, the commision has strong anticommunist bias, but they haven't find 56,000 Germans, 40,000 Hungarians and 24,000 Serbs. --  Bojan  Talk 09:38, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
You should read carefully Sem 1.372 dupliranih imena i oko 1.000 -1.100 stranih državljana iz registra treba izostaviti i žrtve faÅ¡istiÄkog terora koje su proizvoljno uvrÅ¡tene u registar. Utvrdili smo ukupno 41 ovakav upis u registru. 55.973-1.372≈54.000 --  Bojan  Talk 13:53, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
This is probbably the worst article I've seen on English wikipedia. Not a single fact, not a single reliable source, and lots of inflammatory propaganda introduced via references to articles in notorious tadbloid newspapers.
From my point of view, apart from formal disadvantages, this article has more serious issues. Namely, it offers lots of malicious fabrications, with no counterweight in factuality whatsoever.
For example, this vivid character, professor Dragoljub Živković, states that "about half of the Serb victims were killed by occupational forces and the other half of them were executed by post-war communist authorities". And the source? Some mail archive!?
Cure? I can't see why this article is not deleted in the first place. But, an article on the subject is necessary. The work of the 2009 State Commission can shed some light on the subject. Although criticized, the commission did some serious and significant work. It had access to all available sources, including OZNA registries, birth registries, bot state and church, and compiled a comprehensive list. The list includes all dead, regardless of whether they were killed in fighting, sentenced to death, or just missing. It was criticised for a number of duplicate entries (there is even a number of people entered for times), und other issues, but it finaly provided us with numbers with a margine of error probably less than 10%. This list is more or less stable on the two last years, and it can shed some light. For example, number Serbs from Vojvodina on the list is 917, and not some 23-24.000, (or 47.000) as implied by professor Dragoljub Živković. And all work of professor Dragoljub Živković in Commission for Vojvodina is completelly included in the list.
In short, I don’t think wikipedia should allow itself to present claims of victims more then 20 or 40 times larger than the stated facts. It is even worse than famous Jasenovac issue.
In short, the list for the whole territory of Serbia contains 27.367 Germans, 14.567 Serbs, 6.112 Hungarians, 1.360 Albanians and 953 Croats. It is incomplete – some records should be deleted, some more added, but I think we could say with confidence that true number of all dead not included in earlier census is somewhere in the range of +-20% of these numbers.-- Gorran ( talk) 13:33, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
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@ Jozefsu: how do you now that majority are innocent? I don't claim that majority are not. I claim that there were many a) soldiers who died in battles, b) true collaborationist, fascists and war criminals. Chetniks and formations of Ljotić and Nedić fought against partisans until the end of war during retreat of Army Group E, such as Milan Aćimović, Miroslav Trifunović, Dragoslav RaÄić, Vuk Kalaitović, NeÅ¡ko Nedić... Or people who were tried and sentenced to death such as Dragoljub Mihailović, Kosta MuÅ¡icki, Dragoljub Jovanović, Vojislav LukaÄević, Dragutin Keserović, Tanasije Dinić or politicians like Velibor Jonić. Or Milan Nedić who killed himself before his trial. Some 2000-3000 chetniks from Serbia were killed in battles of Tuzla and Zelengora. Many died from tifus in Bosnia because they didn't want to surender.
Among people executed by partisans were members of Arrow Cross Party or Gyula Gömbös's Turan Hunters or resposible for or participants of of Novi Sad raid (and persecutions of Serbs during April 1941) such as László Deák and Ferenc Szombathelyi
Among Croats among these 55-60,000 are members of Ustasa movement --  Bojan  Talk 03:27, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
@ BokicaK: The names you list here have nothing to do with this article. We both know it. We know each other. You're a notorous liar and mischief-maker. I will not let you play your game here as you are playing on Wikipeidia in Serbian language, where you prevented all my edits, and everybody elses edits. Pretty obvious why this subject is so important to you. Not for the sake of honesty, not for good! I ask the Community: How can a religiously devoted communist be NPOV in this page? Just HOW?– Jozefsu ( talk) 03:59, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
It DOES have. They are among those 55-60,000 died. I'll repeat again: Among those those names are people who certainly weren't purged (but counted in death toll) are Dragoljub Mihailović [24], Milan Nedić [25], Aćif Hadžiahmetović [26], NeÅ¡ko Nedić (KIA) [27], Nikola Kalabić [28], Svetozar Vujković [29], Dragi Jovanović [30], Tanasije Dinić [31], Velibor Jonić [32], Dragoslav RaÄić (KIA) [33], DragiÅ¡a Vasić (most probably killed by ustashas( [34], Dragutin Keserović [35], Vojislav LukaÄević [36], Milorad Mojić (killed by ustashas) [37], Kosta MuÅ¡icki [38], Milan Aćimović (KIA) [39]
Member of Turan Hunters Tibor Kisz [40]
@ Peacemaker67:, what is policy here on calling someone 'liar' --  Bojan  Talk 04:08, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
What we gonna do with his reverts? Did I prove that many who died aren't just innocent civilians? Of course, there could be or were people who were indeed innocent (that means who weren't war criminals, fascist or members of fascist or collaborationist forces or organizations, petty thiefs...) --  Bojan  Talk 04:35, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
@ Jozefsu: Did Mihailović, Vujković, Jonić, Jovanović, LukaÄević, GaÅ¡parović, Keserović, VranjeÅ¡ević, Rade Radić were brought to tribunals? Yes or no? Would You like to translate this article from Kontrapres: U merama koje je sprovodila pobedniÄka strana u BaÄkoj bilo je elemenata revanÅ¡izma i retorzije i „ostvarivanja politike ’oko za oko zub za zub’“. Nema sumnje da je jedan broj ubistava, Äak ako uzmemo u obzir želju za osvetom, bio nacionalno motivisan, kao i da je u osvetniÄkom naletu ubijen veći broj lica koja nisu imala ozbiljnu krivicu ili nisu imali realnu krivicu. MeÄ‘utim, pojedini preživeli savremenici Racije 1942, naroÄito oni koji su izgubili Älanove porodice, smatrali su da odgovornosti podleže svaka vrsta podrÅ¡ke i okupacionom poretku. Kako istiÄe istoriÄar Aleksandar KasaÅ¡, na podruÄju ÄŒuruga, Žablja i MoÅ¡orina „prilikom ovih kažnjavanja bila je primetna želja nove vlasti da se ovim merama da izvesno zadovoljenje srpskim porodicama i izvrÅ¡i osveta, ali se nastojalo da se ipak zadovolji normalna sudska forma.“ (source Milan Radanović/Aleksandar KasaÅ¡) --  Bojan  Talk 01:54, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
@ BokicaK:I wanted not to continue, but you're such a blatant manipulator, eh. Yes shurely I write much, but I do it in hope you read it and think about it. I always assume you do. Otherwise its not a discussion.
But let it be, whatever is going on here in the talk still doesn't gratify you right to delete well referenced sentences in the article! You can't just leave a note here about Turan hunters (we all know they existed) and go and delete some random sentence there.
You cannot just come here and tell us the nazis were bad guys, and go back to the article to deliberatley dispute that communists killed innocents.
Shurely nice pick about Draža who "I evade". And what about the government of Serbia (High Court) rehabiliting him as innocent? And stating that his war crimes were a communist forgery, and his trial a politically staged trial? Please I am not sharing my opinion here. These are facts. I am just curious if you think you are smarter than your country? Of course we all know that there was a trial of his, so what is your point anyway? It is not clear to me how is all that connected to the subject of this article?
Everyne can see clearly that all your arguments on the subject criminals/innocents are a pure psychological manipulation. You even use that morbid argument "They killed innocents first, they were as much cruel, so why is the problem if we killed innocents by 'more humane' ways". Everyone here can see that you are defending an ideology, whereas I defend the victims of that ideology.
By the way, you never say anything about the government of Serbia recognizing the fact that bloody purge of innocents did happen, and that monuments and memorials should be erected above the mass graves. Nobody - besides you - say that those mass graves, especially in Vojvodina are graves of war criminals! Show me one mass grave of the purges after september 1944 in Vojvodina - with references - that is a mass grave of war criminals. Please!
To the recent days - the article presents it - these monuments, the crosses, the stones etc. were regularly destroyed, burned, removed. Who else than by the relatives and ideological supporters of the mass-killers (who else would destroy graveyards than those indoctrinated and blinded by an ideology). Please, prove that you're not a liar, and declare openly if you support the removal of monuments from the mass graves of communist purges. Because you claim that there are war-criminals in those graves. The memorial table above most graves have a list of names. Please start your own investigation and form a commission for removal of all names and exhumation of all "suspects" from those graves that you consider "inappropriate". And in meantime explain, why those people were all shot in head without charges and trial. You cannot go away with your notion without explaining why the government hid the supposed reasons of the mass killings and forbid the public to talk about it for more than 60 years. Why the fear if they were war criminals anyway? The killers should have been proud of the killings but instead they sealed with seven seals, destroyed and camouflaged the scene of the crime. Where is the logic here? I don't know much about criminal investigation, but this has all the elements of a criminal act. The communist government should have been proud of purging out war criminals, instead cover up happaned on all levels, and the circumstances of killings were classified as state secret. Come on man, you don't have to be Colombo to see that all this point to mass crime here, and the government was responsible! Because it with all its power defended the perpetrators, and no partisan was ever charged for deliberate act. Be careful, who do you defend here!
And please do not delete referenced material from the article, because you are deliberately degrading what the article is trying to say.– Jozefsu ( talk) 12:57, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
Dear Bojan, first – where and when I said nazis aren't bad guys?! This is not the first time (but I hope the last) that you accuse me of that. Not nice!
Second – If I answer your question about the Novi Sad raid, will you let me alone? And not delete my referenced sentences? I don't want edit war, I just want to edit. In the true spirit of Wikipedia. Here like in the rest of the articles. You know, to look up references, read them, formulate them and place them in, peace by peace building a nice text here. I am not here to modify this article to be in line with my wish or ideology. Just to add original content, as I do everywhere elese in Wikipedia for 4 years now. So let's play your immature game then: Yes, 3000 innocent civilians were killed in Novi Sad 1941 by hungarian soldiers, my nationals, and I am ashamed of those hungarians. Happy now? But in 1944/45 my nationals – many of them innocent civilians too – were killed by partisans, your nationals. Will you accept that fact? Are you ashamed of them too? Or you are happy for the reprisal? Be honest with us! At least try to be, and not go around of the question, by starting another talk, about Turans, this and that.... please!
Thrid – again, you list Turan hunters here and mention the Novi Sad raid, and for you it's all settled? Anybody innocent that was killed by partisans from then on are justified? You list nazi conc. camps, place pictures of chetniks. You think everyone here is a fool, right? If we are interested in that we will look up those – this is a talk page of communist purges, of victims of a communist terror. Are you trying to distract attention from the subject here? The things you list here are for another article. (This is the exact reprise of your "argumentation" from Serbian Wikipedia and I don't want to do it here again. Nije ti dosadno?) There are thousands of pages about Yugoslav partisan's bravery and battles on Wikipedia, but only this one talks about their misconduct. Why not edit this one with the same pure heart and devout attention, for the sake of truth and for the sake of Wikipedia? Remember that no partiality is welcomed. ( Double standard, Bias, Favoritism).
I know about freedom fight of partisans, I know about the nazis, I know about the Holocaust. But please, here, this is different subject, different article. And you are, in my opinion, manipulating. No need for it.– Jozefsu ( talk) 23:27, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
No, I remove claim that 55-600 were killed without trial, because simply it is not true. According to Radanović's estimates, 55-60% died in camps from nonviolent deaths (mostly Volksdeutshe), then many Chetniks were killed in battles (although amnesty was offered. Twice, by the end of war). Then some did have very public trial (Mihailović, etc). And finally, among those are people not killed by partisans (explaind bellow) --  Bojan  Talk 02:59, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
are band sources. For example Hungarian historian EnikÅ‘ A. Sajti says: U danaÅ¡njoj maÄ‘arskoj javnosti putem rada Tibora ÄŒereÅ¡a (Vérbosszú a Bácskában) fiksirala se brojka od 40 hiljada, uprkos tome Å¡to sam posle objavljivanja knjige, u svojoj studiji koju je objavio list Saveza pisaca (Magyar Napló), već ukazala na netaÄnost i nesigurnost objavljenih podataka. PoÅ¡to je ÄŒereÅ¡ova knjiga prevedena na viÅ¡e jezika, meÄ‘u kojima na engleski i hrvatski, tako se i na meÄ‘unarodnom planu fiksirala ova brojka. Uprkos tome Å¡to i vojvoÄ‘anska literatura na maÄ‘arskom jeziku drži ovu brojku preteranom, jer kako ukazuje Marton MatuÅ¡ka u jednoj sumirajućoj studiji u vezi odmazdi, „prema podacima koje knjiga objavljuje u ÄŒurugu je palo 3000, a Zabiju 2000 žrtava. Ni jedno selo nije imalo toliko maÄ‘arskih stanovnika." Ne govoreći o tome, dodaje, da knjiga iskljuÄivo „razmatra dogaÄ‘aje u BaÄkoj", odmazde u Banatu, Baranji ne spominje. (in Aleksandar KasaÅ¡'s book). Translation: In modern Hungarian public, thanks to work by Tibor Cseres (Vérbosszú a Bácskában), number of 40,000 [dead] is fixed, despite fact after publication of [his] book, in my study published by paper of Authors union (Magyar Napló), I already pointed inaccuracy and uncertainity of published data. Thanks to fact that Czeres's book is translated on several language, including English and Croatian, in international public this number is also fixed. Despite fact that even literature from Vojvodina on Hungarian language consider this number exaggerated, since, as Marton Matuszka points in a study regarding retalitations, "acording to data that the [Cseres's] book reveals in ÄŒurug there were 3000 slain, and in Žabalj 2000 victims. Not one [of those two] village had so many Hungarian inhabitants". While not talking about that, he [Matuszka] says that the book exclusively "consider events in BaÄka", retaliations in Banat [and] Baranja doesn't mention.
SrÄ‘an Cvetković, although he genuinely has Phd in field of history, and he is spiritus movens behind Serbian State Commission, is bad/unreliable researcher. Milan Radanović points that his master/PHd thesis, Between hummer and sickle has manny inacuraices. E.g. Cvetković is cited here in article/feuilleton from VeÄenje Novisti "Broz na belom konju". In very first sentence he says: Trijumfalni ulazak J. B. Tita na belom konju 20. oktobra 1944. preko PanÄevaÄkog mosta uneo je zebnju u srca mnogih BeograÄ‘ana. (triumphal entry of J. B. Tito [in Belgrade] on white horse on 20th October 1944 via PanÄevo bridge brought aching in heart of many residents of Belgrade). Fact #1. Tito arived in Belgrade on 26th October, on 20th October he was in VrÅ¡ac, awaiting arrival of Ivan Å ubaÅ¡ić, Fact #2 PanÄevo bridge was destroyed several days earlier by retreating Wehrmacht (or by Allied planes), so Fact #3 Broz only could get in Belgrade via Soviet patrol boat.
@ Peacemaker67:, what do you say? --  Bojan  Talk 04:30, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
Should I defend myself? The person who is manipulating is called a manipulator. It's not an insult, it's an assessment based on observation. Bojane, why I cannot find the second list of yours in the database? Dragutin Gavrilović, Božidar Purić, Dragoslav Stranjaković, Salamon Bakran. Are you really telling us truth here? What secondary source you are using for these?
"His commission" – again you are slightly slanting here. It is not his but of the government of Serbia, and of the two academies of Serbia and Hungary. There is just too many academics involved here for you to accuse them for unreliability. I don't even understand how dare you, with your limited knowledge, do it. Are you really accusing the National Academias of not one but two countries for forgery?! Or you have access to the secret classified files from the UDB, OZNA, SDB and VOS-liquidator unit?– Jozefsu ( talk) 00:00, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
And I'm sorry, but I need to stress this too: Bojan knows I am of hungarian etnicity, so he emhasizes the Novi Sad raid and the 'Turans' – to intimidate me. That is an obvious manipulation. He's trying to chase me away, that's all he does.
Just some forgotten facts here: all the perpetrators of the Novi Sad crime were prosecuted. But no partisan was prosecuted for 1944/45. Some of them were even awarded a medal, others were at high position, lived respected lives. Some guards who robbed prisoners in retention camps where demobilized, that's all reported. Bojan knows this. But the world also needs to know this side of things, for the sake of righteousness.
Bojane, how come you forget that many more serbs killed serbs, based on ideology, during and after WW2? Just this one man, Ratko Dražević UDBA leader claims he killed with his own hand 2000 prisoners in ÄŒaÄak. Killer is killer, murder is murder. I don't care what sign he wears, what language he speaks... The executioners names should be known, the line of command behind the purges need to come to light, and the victims deserve to be named and buried with humane dignity. Eh, these strange, alien words to you? ...even communists purged other communists after the war, in battle for power. Hebrang, Slobodan Penezić Krcun, Ranković, names sound familiar to you?– Jozefsu ( talk) 00:35, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
Read what I wrote: OK, in the meantime Purić, Stranjaković were removed from the list.. Yes, I said that that people were in the list in 2014. Thanks to (in)competence of Srđan Cvetković's commision. People who died in Auswitz, Mauthsausen, Jasenovac ARE still in the list and people count them as victims of partisans, not Germans. And Milorad Mojić was killed in Zagreb by Ustashas in event described in this article, yet he is still he is counted as sustenanced to death
Fact that are You of hugarian ethnicity doesn't meant anything to me. I'm against revisionist of all eccentricities who speak bullshit. As I demontrated by pointing that many Serbian collaborators and war criminals are in the list. Many of ~15,000 Serbs weren't executed, the died in battled against Partisans or were killed by American/British bombers, because they were retreating together with Army Gropu E. Yes, some perpetuateros of Novi Sad raid were tried as Hungary wanted to show that it was trully democratic society in the when Miklos Kalay soughted to make deal with United Kingdom and pull Hungary out of war. Let see what KasaÅ¡ says (pages 143-144) : Od 14. do 23.decembra 1943.godine održano je i suÄ‘enje glavnim vinovnicima racije. Ono je koincidiralo sa promenom stava prema Srbima. Tada je suÄ‘eno: Ferencu Feketehalmi Cajdneru, Jožefu GraÅ¡iu, Laslu Deaku, Martonu Zeldiu i dragima. Namenjeno demokratskoj javnosti Zapada, i na odreÄ‘eni naÄin Srbima (zadovoljenje za raciju), suÄ‘enje je okonÄano kao farsa, budući da je svim osuÄ‘enim omogućeno da u januara 1944.godine pobegnu avionom na nemaÄku teritoriju. Translation: From December 14th till 23rd December 1943 trial of main perpetuates of Novi Sad raid'was held. It coincided wiht change of policy toward Serbs. Among defendants were Ferenc Feketehalmy-Czeydner, József Grassy, Laslo Deak, Márton Zöldy and others. It is intended for the democratic public of the West, and in a certain way to the Serbs (satisfaction for raid), the trial was concluded as a farce since all prisoners were allowed to flee by plan on German hold territory in January 1944. I doubt that Dražević ever said that he himself killed 2,000 men, especially since that the commission found only 756 dead from ÄŒaÄak and 1,711 from wider area (municipalites ÄŒaÄak, Gornji Milanovac, Ivanjica and LuÄani. For exampe this man from ÄŒaÄak died somewhere in Bosnia, perhaps from typhoid or killed in Tuzla or Zelenegora).
I'll report this on Administrator noticeboard. I'm tired of you personal attack, trolling and using this page as forum. --  Bojan  Talk 03:16, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
I don't miss anything you say, unfortunately. But we are talking on two levels, each of us talk about a completely different thing. All you do is playing with the numbers of victims, tryng to lessen (as if that was possible!) the extent of the crime (reread your last sentence). On other instances you try to relativize the subject and try justify the killings, so indirectly you are defending the perpetrators. Please don't deny it, everybody sees what you are doing. Even in the article itself. By the way as for the article, in the serbian Wikipedia you directly demonstrated this by incredibly violent attitude against everyone and deleteing every edit that was not in line with your agenda. Whereas I – in line with the current official investigation – talk about things like how many innocents were killed, where they are buried, what was their name and how to bury them as human beings (I believe the government should exhume them and even pay their proper burial). Come on, what difference it makes if "only" 1000 was innocent out of 2000 executed? What about the 1000 then? What is your answer, solution? Leave them in the unsigned graves tigether with the criminals? (following your logic) You see, that is why the process of rehabilitation (independent investigation, without revisonism) is important. Do you see yourself and can you rethink your used arguments? The war was over before 74 years so today only the extent of war crime is important, because up to this day nobody was charged, and this was a top level national secret sealed in archives. So if you still don't understand why this is more important than the numbers the answer is because war is over, we are not engaging in war anymore (it looks like you still do in your head and heart) and the countries want to ensure peaceful future coegzistence, not to be forever stuck in the hatred game! Only rightful dealing with the past can settle this, and putting away with it but not to swipe it under the carpet, but putting ALL cards on the table (illuminating BOTH sides of the picture). I can write much much more, but you already lost your cool, and this is exactly what was on the Serbian Wikipedia – don't lead anywhere.
And you report as much as you can. So I can point to what you have done with me on the Serbian Wikipedia, how much bitterness I suffered because you and your idelogy friends persecuted me, frightening me with a power of administrator. You were problematic even as a sysop, and you have a record of misbehavior there that you cannot deny. And as for this here, if your intensions to settle the so-called "dispute" are honest, why didn't you notified me as is the Wikipedia procedure? You were a sysop for long time, you cannot say you don't know the rules.
P. S. As for who insults who. If you are really not interested in my nationality, why did you stress not once but twice the Turan hunters? Even to the extent of almost writing an article here about them – doing this just because you think among the victims of purges was a Turan? According to this, who of us used this talk page for a forum? And what else was that if not manipulation aimed to my nationality? And sentences in bold like "local hungarians helped the nazis"?? What were you trying to prove with those if not that hungarians cannot be trusted? (By the way this exact phrase was used by the communists to start the purges in Vojvodina.)
For Turan hunters let me share this story: my dad was 14 years old and played near the camp of hungarian Turan hunters. [a] My dad was also hungarian, but these criminals cought him and beated him anyway. My dad says they were bored so they "played" a little with him by giving him slaps. He managed to escape. Only for the second try, because they caught him again. He was a skinny boy, these were strong men. My dad hated Hungary all his life because of this. Besides, my two uncles were partisans, fought in the battle of Batina..... And dear "friend" what do you think why I didn't share this true story here? Because there is no reason for it! It doesn't have to do anything with the title of this article, as much as your chetnik pictures don't! You place pictures of chetniks and nazis in the talk page about the victims of red terror, and then you are complaining about somebody trolling you? You canvass using the talk page as a pasteboard, so what makes you nervous is basically double-standard. You can do this, but others' arguments make you pissed off.– Jozefsu ( talk) 14:32, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
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The aim of this article is allegedly to present the bloodletting at the end of World War II. Instead it already questions the FACT that it was commited by the Yugoslav Partisan Movement in the intraductory sentence! It's ridiculous that the chapter "Killings" is constituted from two lines, as well as the lack of a description of the crimes committed. This is purely denial and relativisation of a historical crime. Ethnic cleansing or crimes against humanity, should be stated in the first paraghraph, "killings" is preposterous. "Killings were killings" is childish and not really a decent English sentence, but the main goal of some here seems to be the denial. Disappointing. Transylvanus 20:55, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
How come the German and Hungarian ethnic cleansing is referred to as "crimes of the occupiers", whereas the Yugoslavs´ murders of Hungarians are simply "killings"??
So the massacres of Serbs are "undisputed, historical facts" but the massacres of Hungarians are "a very controversial issue"? Christ, what double standards. As far as I can tell from these articles, both events can and should be labelled as "killings" or "massacres".
The aritcle has being attacked by the Serb nationalist (User:PANNONIAN). I wanted to make a memorial artcile for the victims, but he can't stand that we should talk about the innocent civilian victims of the partisans. HunTheGoaT 18:31, 29 September 2006 (CEST)
Do you please have some reasonable explanation for this edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=1944-1945_Killings_in_Ba%C4%8Dka&diff=78874310&oldid=78791238 You changed numbers, but you left here a sources that present different numbers to show that they in fact present "your" numbers. There is one word for it - a falsification!!!
Now here is list of sources, and a quotation what they claim:
So, let write this article in accordance with Wikipedia policy:
The number of killed Hungarians is much higher than 20000, and 4000 is only ridiculous. My source is the Hungarian Wikipedia, the Duna TV and hungarian people living in the Bácska. But the fact is that nobody knows exactly how many people died in these killings. I could also mention the ten thousands of Hungarians who died in the prisoner-camps. Öcsi 11:08, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
"The number of killed Hungarians is much higher than 20000, and 4000 is only ridiculous"
I am sorry, but it is your personal opinion and nothing else. I simply presented here what my sources say and it is in accordance with verifiability policy of Wikipedia. Whether you personally like or dislike this data is only your own problem. Regarding your sources, you use Hungarian Wikipedia as a source? Is this a joke or something? I hope that you know that anybody could edit that article on Hungarian Wikipedia and could write anything there. As for Duna TV, I can watch that TV on my cable television, and I just can say that they too much times showed a map of Greater Hungary in their TV program. The only correct thing that you said is "that nobody knows exactly how many people died in these killings", so our job is not to present only those numbers that we personally like more, but numbers from ALL sources. PANONIAN (talk) 14:43, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Nothing, except PANONIAN's own researches. Nationalism rules. But not on Wikipedia. Tag removed, and will be considered as vandalism, untill a valuable reason won't be shown here for 1. what facts are not correct 2. wich part is POV, and why, and what text would be good instead of it. -- 195.56.80.183 16:17, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Read the books mentoned in the notes section dude. Some of them are in serbian. I put some more in, and changed those refs to those wich are in the hungarian one. (books) -- 195.56.80.183 18:07, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
The page, you disputed has a BIBLIOGRAPHY part, wich means, they put the text seen there, from these:
No more notes needed. Yours sincerely. -- 195.56.80.183 18:13, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I've done a bit of cleanup, still needs a lot more. - Francis Tyers · 22:24, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
The source that was added is far from impartial or academic "hungarian-history.hu", come on, the site is called "Serbian Vendetta in Bacska" hah. - Francis Tyers · 09:15, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
If your study of site is deeper, you would see that this is an e-book version of the book published in Budapest in 1991. I recommend you to read chapters from "Cover" to "Vendetta. Retaliation Multiplied", because of discernment. Enough academic? Bendeguz 19:34, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
One of the main principles of collective amnesia is: "If we don't talk about events, the events didn't happen." You modified this principle to: "If we don't have reliable (English) sources, the events didn't happen." (alleged is your word). The tragedy of losers and small nations is that, there is nobody to write their history, except themselves.
From interview with author:
I: Were your hopes fulfilled in the form of Serbian writers making the same symbolic act of collective regret, if not a confession for their crimes like the one you had made in Cold Days .
A: None of my hopes were fulfilled. A few Serbian writers voiced their opinion that in World War II almost two million people lost their lives in their country, so these few tens of thousands of Hungarians should not be of interest to them, especially not as writers.(COLD DAYS - A NOVEL AND A FILM, Page 18)
Collective amnesia and denial , instead of regret. This is - {{ Fact}}, Serbia even now.
To do (warm up your cleaning-machine Francis)
(to be continued) Bendeguz 22:10, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
I've merged this into Occupation of Vojvodina, where it looks much more at home. - Francis Tyers · 12:11, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
1. This article is below any acceptable standard, in its present form seems more like a stub. 2. This article is seriously biased.
1. The article does not fulfil the promise of the title, the Chapter entitled Killings contains TWO LINES of low quality "explanation".
The English of the intraductory sentence is extremely poor.
There aren't any sites mentioned, in contrast with the "Occupation of Vojvodina, 1941-1944" article: "include Novi Sad, BeÄej, Vilovo, Gardinovci, GospoÄ‘inci, ÄurÄ‘evo, Žabalj, Lok, MoÅ¡orin, Srbobran, Temerin, Titel, ÄŒurug, and Å ajkaÅ¡."
The pictures aren't very relevant.
2. The title in itself is strange enough. Killings as the most appropriate term for the events? As a comparison articles dealing with Yugoslavia of the same era:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleiburg_massacre ,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foibe_massacres, or:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Vojvodina%2C_1941-1944 (the author, Panonius? speaks about "war crime" and "the mass murder of the civilians" in connection with the 1942 raid. I agree with those terms, but why did he restore "killings instead of my "ethnic cleansing"? The lowest estimate given by the present (shameful) page is 4000, compare this with 3800 after the 1942 raid. How is this not a massacre, war crime or ethnic cleansing???
In the same sentence "allegedly"! Come on! Were there any other armed men capable of committing a crime on this scale? What are you suggesting? That not all of them were officially members? Some of them lost their Partisan ID?
"This was due to the fact that members of these two ethnic groups showed the largest level of collaboration with the Axis authorities and committed most of the war crimes against the citizens of Vojvodina." This is not a fact only an accusation, or an excuse for the perpetrators or war criminals. As far as I know War Crimes are War Crimes regardless from their origin.
"many citizens of Vojvodina belonging to all ethnic groups joined the partisan resistance movement to fight against occupation" is this a factual sentence or something taken from a communist internationalist fairy tale?
"Some Hungarian houses were sacked and one number of Hungarian civilians was executed and tortured. [10] Some women and children were raped. [11] Some men who were able to work were deported to Siberia." This is the most disgraceful sentence, "some" as a cover for 4000 to 50000 murders plus rapes and all the others, this is the clearest example of downplaying of a Second World War tragedy I have ever seen on Wikipedia.
I am afraid that the moderators of the page aren't really experts in the field. Thus, please consider the mistakes made and do not restore the original version when I make a correction.
Transylvanus 22:44, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Right. I'm glad for receiving some explanations, I will try to adress each of them during the week.
1. I have nothing to do with "Great Hungarian propaganda". 2.This is still a terribly unbalanced article. As a historian my concerns are connected to terminology, and the usage of language and that of the sources.
"unreliable Hungarian sources" Of course one could argue against every book and article. My problem here is that the only "reliable" sources according to the present form of the articles are Yugoslav ones. Now that is ridiculous. My suggestion is to present two narratives. 1. The official Yugoslav or serb version (preferably not simply based on the postwar idea of collective guilt as the present version does) 2. A Hungarian version (or a non extremist Hungarian one). Cseres Tibor for instance can not be interpreted as "irredentist". I can elaborate on his views if there is request for it.
Francis Tyers requested more reliable (non Yugoslav, non Hungarian) sources. I have two problems with this. Firstly, avoiding local sources is not accepted as a scholarly approach. (You can't study ancient history without the Greek or Latin etc. sources.) Sources from at least the two most affected nations have to be included. Or get rid of the serb sources? No, you have to use Cseres at least. Secondly, aricles published in the English speaking world were also mainly written by authors of Hungarian or South Slavic origin. The most respected of them was probably Jozo Tomasevich at Stanford University. However, I'm not sure how much of their research was based on primary sources. Their conclusions were reached in the 80's, when for example the shocking results of the Slovenian exhumations were not known (296 mass graves with 180000 (!) corpses, see Bleiburg massacre), which is four times more than Tomasevich's estimate!
Anyway, I will get the Tomasevich, and some other publications as well (Barbara Jelavich). I will try to balance the article by including their results.
For the short term. 1.While no one disputes the internationalist character of the Parisan Army it still had a nationalist(South Slavic) layer in the same way as the Stalinist Soviet Union did; ethnic cleansings happened here and there as well.
2. The term "Killings" is in no way acceptable, it is simply not in line with the standard of other Wikipedia or any scholarly war crime related article. Individual killigs occured during the 1942 raid or around Bleiburg as well. Those Wikipedia articles use the right terms: massacres, mass murder, war crimes. My suggestion is "Massacres in BaÄka".
3. The "Killings" chapter and "some houses". I very much doubt that you can describe at least 4000 deaths by saying "some". If you(?) don't want to reveal the numbers you should at least say somethig like "hundreds", "dozens" "several thousands" or "some hundreds". Neither can I imagine that a serious publication described the number of those affected in such terms, so the problem is with our interpreter.
Please at least change "killings", and specify the numbers.
Bests, Transylvanus 20:16, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for drawing my attention to the Wikipedias own massacre article PANONIAN, but I don't see there anything weakening my argument. You've quoted individual events of deliberate and direct mass killing. Yes at least 4000 (possibly ten times more) as agreed in the article is definitely "mass" and deliberate that is again supported by the article (pre-planning, orders). The massacre aricle also says: "A massacre shall be considered the execution of five or more people, in the same place, as part of the same operation and whose victims were in an indefensible state." That's spot on. I am convinced that you as a local historian (localpatriot,researcher?) must be aware of at least a dozen sites which correspond to this description. I have no doubt about the meaning of massacre and killing in the English speaking world, but I also checked their relevance in Wikipedia, the result is obvious "killings" only appears in this article to describe an atrocity. Massacre on the other hand is widely used. The Boston Massacre is used to describe the killing of 5 civilians on one day, while the Bleiburg massacre was committed during a longer term, involving tens of thousends. Still the English grammar allows the usage of the singular form massacre.
Mind you none of them is marked as POV only for using this term.
My reason for recommending the term massacre(or massacres) is to show our condemnation. It covers the "never again" message. I have no objection to use it when Hungarian are crimes are described.
Due to my profession I know that those times had different standards and I understand their emotions,["Massacres are the fruit of bitterness, and of the calculations of leaders." concluded Milovan Djilas in his "Wartime" after describing the massacre of some Italian prisoners (translated by Michael B. Petrovich, 1977. edition, London page 338.)] but I'm convinced that in the 21. century our norm ought to be different. Bests, Transylvanus 02:01, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Don't get into personal attacks. That only shows your lack of arguments. 1. You can not bend a language as you wish. Terminology is important in history. 2. The war was brutal enough in the whole area, there is no need to denigrate the partisans. The Foibe massacres and the Bleiburg massacre proves this perfectly, Djilas is not denying it either. I'm not saying that one side was better or worse than the other! Individual killings occured in each of the quoted cases but they all happened "as part of the same operation" Again: "A massacre shall be considered the execution of five or more people, in the same place, as part of the same operation and whose victims were in an indefensible state." Transylvanus 09:29, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm gettig bored by these "irredentist" and "Nazi" charges. Do I have to assume that every massacre article in Wikipedia, describing Allied war crimes is motivated by some form of fascism??? This must be a joke.
Instead of accusations we should work together to improve these articles. I can find the relevant English and Hungarian articles, while you and Duja might check articles, books published in Yugoslavia.
Maybe we could write a new article in paralel with the Occupation of Vojvodina, 1941-1944. Let's call it "The liberation of Vojvodina in 1944-45". This could include a "War cimes committed during the liberation" with chapters about massacres and individual killings. The crimes and rapes commited around Belgrade by the Red Army leading to a confrontation between Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union could be mentioned as well. The Aftermath should deal for instance with the post-war trial of war criminals. I'm sure that if we trust each other and cooperate a consensus can be reached. Bests, Transylvanus 09:47, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi Transylvanius. Write out a RM survey, and report personal attacks here: Wikipedia:Personal attack intervention noticeboard. Since discussing with PANONIAN unfortunately leads to nothing in recent times, whatever you do, he'll revert, and starts a endless polemia on the talk page(s), to prevent NPOVing of the article(s).-- Vince hey, yo! :-) 16:39, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
This is a massacre, genocide, and/or ethnic cleansing, since it occured on the winter of 44-45, within 2 month.
There's no mention of the internal camps of Gakovo, Jarek, Kruševlje, Molidorf, Knićanin, and Sremska Mitrovica where between 1945-1948 another 70,000 german and hungarian civilians died, so in fact this page is only abt those massacres, wich are made by the Yugoslav armies, and does not mention the german fatalities, so also one sided. The full number of dead ppl is around 80-100 000 (!). This WAS a mass genocide, not "killings". -- Vince hey, yo! :-) 16:55, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
It's a pity that no one seems ready to do more work to improve the article. Accepting minor changes would already make a difference. Available English publications on ethnic cleansing alone: Fires of hatred : ethnic cleansing in twentieth-century Europe / Norman M. Naimark., Redrawing nations : ethnic cleansing in East-Central Europe, 1944-1948 / edited by Philipp Ther and Ana Siljak., Ethnic cleansing in twentieth-century Europe / editors, Steven Béla Várdy and T. Hunt Tooley, German scholars and ethnic cleansing, 1919-1945 / edited by Ingo Haar and Michael Fahlbusch ; foreword by Georg G. Iggers., The dark side of democracy : explaining ethnic cleansing / Michael Mann. etc.
Transylvanus 17:32, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Duja. Due to my other duties I need a few weeks to locate and read the available English sources, but ideally we should also include the Yugoslav version. Could you possibly have a look at the sources published in Serbian language? We could than present the claims of each side, hopefully reaching some kind of consensus. Bests, Transylvanus 11:35, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
The article in the current form is severely biased, it presents the mass murder of Hungarians as a "justifiable collective revenge" for the atrocities committed by the occupants between 1941-44 (which undeniably happened, also out of revenge for Partisan violence against regular forces and the local population). It also fails to mention the sadistic cruelty by which most of the murders were carried out (impaling, mutilation, torture). See the book of Tibor Cseres as a reference. Ãrpád 07:13, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
1944-1945 Killings in BaÄka → 1944-1945 massacre in BaÄka (or 1944-1945 ethnic cleansing in BaÄka, however most popular name of the event (in hungarian) is "1944-1945 blood feud in BaÄka") – the page was illegally moved [6] to recent name, wich does not describe the action properly, and Serbian POV. The death of 35,000 ppl within three month can not be describet as "killings". It was a massacre, and an ethnic cleansing. It was a feud for the 1941 annexation of Northern Vojvodina by Hungary. (see refs, and discussion above) Vince hey, yo! :-) 15:30, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~ Vince hey, yo! :-) 15:30, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
The discussion above is ongoing since Nov 23, 2006. 6 month is more than enough to decide something. No compromise reached, so survey is the next step. Lots of wiki policies/guidelines are on enwiki, such as „ Don't be a dickâ€, PANONIAN. -- Vince hey, yo! :-) 22:55, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
There's a section, called "Discussion" below (here). How about adding your comments here, instead of other parts in the survey? I put them here. You know what? I never brought not really known WP policies, but now on, I'll. I'm just avoiding instruction creep, because Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy, so I kindly ask you to stop wikilawyering. Thanks. -- Vince hey, yo! :-) 23:48, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
PS: I'm intrested, what did you consider a personal attack here? I just attracted your attention to a WP policy, named Don't be a dick. Or from now on bringing policies will be pa-s also? -- Vince hey, yo! :-) 23:59, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
PS: All right, don't stick to rules, if you're the one, who has to keep them. :)) and turn the survey into a mess. I like ppl with double standards. -- Vince hey, yo! :-) 22:16, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
There was already a dispute which numbers should be mentioned in the preface part and dispute was solved by moving all numbers to separate section. The exact number of killed people was never exactly established and estimations range between 4,000 and 50,000, with claims that between 20,000 and 35,000 is most probable number. So, if we mention any of those numbers without other numbers, that would be POV because we have no proof that any of the numbers is correct one - there are only different estimations, and since this is the case, all estimations have to be mentioned together. In fact, we can even move all numbers from the separate section to preface part, but my point is that all numbers should be together, no matter if that is in the preface or in separate section. PANONIAN (talk) 22:56, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Can someone give an update on the neutrality issues here? The tag had been around a year, where does the article stand now?-- BirgitteSB 22:51, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
PANONIAN you dirty nazionalist, who are you backing?? "Claim that it was ethnic cleansing is wrong because if the intention of the partisans was to perform ethnic cleansing, then why other Hungarians were not ethnically cleansed too?" ARE___ YOU___ NUTS?:?????? :O why others were not cleansed???? YOU ARE IN NO WAY A HISTORIAN JUST A WILD SERB PROPAGANDA PRODUCT, YOU ARE DEFENDING WAR CRIMINALS AND GENOCIDE, YOU D BE THE FIRST TO DO THAT TOO, YES I M GOING PERSONAL! ABOUT NUMBERS: 10.000 JUST IN CSUROG! COMPLETELY UNPOPULATED! SURVIVORS COMMEMORATE IT EVERY YEAR WHERE 3000 INNOCENT WERE BURIED, THEY BRING FLOWERS JUST TO HAVE THEM TRASHED BY THE DAY AFTER! BY PEOPLE NOT AS SOPHISTICATED AS YOU! ABOUT OBJECTIVES: THERE ARE DEATH LISTS AND OFFICIAL ORDERS CLEARLY ON ETHNIC CLEANSING! VICTIMS ARE NO WAY "COLLABORATORS" JUST EVERYDAY PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND ME! EXCEPT FOR YOU BACKING WAR CRIMES! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.131.154.159 ( talk) 10:35, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
CAPSLOCK went to dear PANONIAN, he seems to like it. head responsibles of killings in vojvodina were condemned to death in hungary right away! while those killings went all the winter long, systematically and with state support! not to mention the aftermath where memorials (oh well...speaking) were forbidden, mass graves are built upon in the next years, or even exhumated for industrial use of remnants! making glue. but can we all just cite horribilities? past is past. but mr P and his likes destroy truth today. and facing the facts would already be a step towards tomorrow! some destroy the memorials, some destroy the facts. one day P will say it was a tea party! :( i'm taking the numbers from black lists. the juridiction and guiltiness in ethnic cleansing from military orders. known documents today! not to mention the survivors and executors still alive in numbers! the witnesses! but there comes a "historian" who plays with numbers and adjectives to relativise events. with brilliant phrases like "should ve it been an ethnic cleansing, why didn't they cleanse other hungarians?" he also adds proper contributions at science... pisses me off, really. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.97.19.203 ( talk) 02:09, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Ok, now you deleted sourced data with explanation "not important". It is clear now that your goal here is exactly propaganda against Serbia and an attempt to present Serbia as country where "minorities are persecuted" and where "monuments of minorities are destroyed". this source clearly states that damaging of monument was performed by two young non-adult boys, who were arrested by the Serbian police. If we mention that something was damaged then it is important to mention who damaged that. Seems that you purposely trying to write this sentence in a way that state of Serbia looks guilty for minority monument damaging and that Serbia, because of this, should no longer govern territories where "persecuted minorities" are living. I am sorry, but we have a source that say who damaged monument and there is no reason why this should not be mentioned. I do not insist that statement of Šandor Egereši is mentioned, but fact that boys who damaged monument were arrested by Serbian police is very important. PANONIAN 22:36, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
Also, I have to mention some other stuff:
1. The part about the massacre in Bezdan is very poorly written, and contains a number of false information, and the English there isn't very great. Cseres' work here: http://mek.oszk.hu/03300/03393/03393.htm#16 does not mention that the Russians have stopped the bloodshed, only that as soon as the Russians forces arrived, the partisans left. Also, the 118 victims weren't shot into the Danube, but they were forced to march to a forest near Isterbác, where they were made to dig their own graves and in which they were shot into in groups of twelve, according to all the witnesses. This whole part should be re-written, because it's not backed up by any sources.
2. For the accuracy's sake we should mention the reason of the significant difference in numbers provided by the various sources. For most of the readers it might not be clear that the post-war communist regimes both in Yugoslavia and Hungary didn't really tolerate the research of this event, so the estimates are relying on the post-communist researches.
3. The ethnic cleansing aspect: the definition of ethnic cleansing also means the mass deportation of people. It is true that the massacre of Serbians was a political act, to punish the collaborators, but the German part of the whole event seems to be a true ethnic cleansing. Of course, it's not true that the whole cleansing was against the Hungarians, it was against the Germans. According to Niall Ferguson (book War of the World page 584.) 13 million Germans were relocated from Eastern Europe to Germany, those from Vojvodina were part of them. Checking the records of the census in Vojvodina ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_vojvodina) the 90% of Germans disappeared from the area by 1948 - of course it's true that most of them left as the Nazi withdrawal. The others were forced to leave, or were killed. Knowing these data in seems that the ethnic cleansing of Germans was going on here, since the whole mass deportation of Germans is often described us such. The Hungarians were much more likely the victims of simple ethnic hatred rather than an organised act of ethnic cleansing, because in 1948 there's "only" 10% loss of Hungarian population since 1941. I think we should include these facts. We could leave this part in: "Some Hungarian historians are introducing idea that such killings were an ethnic cleansing of Hungarians" but we should put the data here, which shows that since the Hungarian population loss is much less than the German, so it's quite unlikely that it was a direct cleansing action against the Hungarians. We might even put a whole section which is describing these facts.
4. I read the argument about the killings/massacre term, and I think that both should be mentioned. The "killings" argument is true, because it wasn't a fully organized act, but a longer chain of events with multiple locations. But we also can't overlook the fact that in some cases (e.g.: Brezdán) clearly an organised massacre is what happened. I think we should put edit the first sentence this way: "The 1944–1945 killings in Vojvodina (or Vojvodina massacre) were executions of several...", so in this way we respect both POV's, and the objectivity doesn't really get damaged, since in Hungary we still call these events a massacre. yossarian44 03:30, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
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-- JeffGBot ( talk) 16:29, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
After reading the arguments regarding the use of the words 'killing' and 'massacre', a more appropriate term would be purge for these reasons:
1. More than one ethnic groups were killed, including Rus - Russyns (which wasn't mentioned in the article).
2. Similar models can be found, for example Stalinist and Maoist purges.
3. Partisans who committed these purges were in the most part, politically motivated by Tito.
4. The killing of the intelligentsia.
What is missing from the article is the sense of retribution, which has been identified by Hungarian and Serb sources as well as taking from models in the past:
1. Hatred by the Orthodox Church factions against the Roman Catholic Church.
2. Ethnicity based on previous migration and settlement from Austro-Hungary, Croatia, Germany, Slovenia. There is a 450 year history of this.
3. Serbian Partisan levels of hatred, precluded the idea of resettlement or expulsion.
4. Following point 3, partisan hatred and the moral and ethically debased forms of torture they used against some of their victims.
5. Most contentiously, Partisans' inability for judgement or trial. Accusations by local Serbs against those of higher socio-economic status or of those who were in competition, those who owned land and houses.
6. Lack of education of the partisan Serbs. Xenophobic and Fascist motivations evident by some groups, replicating the Nazi fascism they were trying to purge.
7. Lack of time and therefore opportunity. As soon as the Russian liberation forces came through (some Bulgar forces as well), the partisans either stopped or went away then returned after they passed through.
8. Inconsistency. On many occasions, partisan attitudes varied from place to place and over time.
None of this is in the article.
As for Nationalism, it should be stated within the article that Nationalistic tendencies bias the current information available and that all viewpoints should be aired.
The comment about 'peer reviewed sources' is interesting in that very little is available, not just on this topic but generally over the whole of Eastern European history. Empirical sources do exist and have been used in arguably nationalistic histories. All historians argue and there is no reason not to include these sources in an explanatory manner. Htcs ( talk) 15:09, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
I added a small section on Rusyns. Unfortunately, the English of Tibor Cseres work is not very clear. I think he was trying to say that the 1944 partisans were also motivated by the fact that the Rus were not attacked by the Hungarian forces in 1941, therefore they deserved punishment? Hopefully others may be able to clarify this point.
His main thesis is that the partisan actions were based on revenge against the Hungarian forces that were putting down rebellions in 1941. I have stayed away from this, although he states that revenge, particularly on the local level was common-place. Some community leaders, like Serbian Orthodox priests, defended RC priests and targetted ethnics and the partisans generally left them alone. In other localities, the Orthodox priest outright accused the RC priest and congregation because they preached that they worshipped God as the God of Hungary (Magyar Isten). So I am personally interested if there were any factionalism between Greek Catholic, Eastern Catholic, Roman Catholic, Lutheran (Evangelical) and other denominations from other sources.
In any case, a section on Partisan Motivation should be added, perhaps including religious factions and socio-economic factions. Htcs ( talk) 06:06, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
I wouldn't put it exactly like that. There is history that he is reporting like numbers, places, names, events. But then there is his argument. I think it is his argument that is flawed, which makes the reader think that his history is also flawed. It is a valuable source as he uses first hand empirical accounts so it shouldn't be discounted. Confirmation of numbers would be good, but that would mean looking at RC church registrations (Matrica) and civil registration books for every town he mentions. Then there is the 100 year law. It will take another 38 years before those records are public domain. Then the same has to be done for Serbs, Germans, Rus etc. University research with co-operative governments. The subject matter is too hot anyway. Htcs ( talk) 11:52, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
Before anyone starts making objections, the title change was discussed at length with PANNONIA on the talk page. Readability and accuracy have improved. The article has a lot more NPOV and it has expanded to include Central Serbia. The principal reason for the change was that the actions committed by the partisans were directed by the Serbian military governance at the time. This by definition is a purge and not 'killing' or 'massacre'; terms that denotes nationalistic POV which must be avoided. Htcs ( talk) 15:18, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
This article is not neutral at all. It looks like the biggest problem is the user Pannonian and his nationalist point of view. HE would like to prove that this area is serb, and there are no place for another view and nationalities. However, the fact is:
Most of Vojvodina became part of the Kingdom of Hungary in the 11th century and remained in Hungary until about 900 years later (1918/1920), except for the period of the Ottoman conquest (see below).
Its demographic balance started changing at the end of the 14th century, as it welcomed Serbian refugees fleeing from territories conquered by the Ottoman army. The first Turkish census, of 1557-58, described the northern parts of the territory having a Hungarian majority. Large numbers of Serbs were settled as a conscious policy on the part of the Habsburg emperor at the end of the 17th century. They were granted widespread exceptions and communal rights, in exchange for providing a border militia that could be mobilised against invaders from the south, as well as in case of civil unrest in Hungary.
Regarding killings, even serbian minds are changing, and Pannonian views and nationalism is minority now. Previously unknown fact are emerging, and this article should be updated: I will cite only serbian sources, as everything what is not serbian is unacceptable for user Pannonian. http://www.autonomija.info/sacinjen-spisak-s-imenima-85000-civila-pobijenih-u-vojvodini-u-drugom-svetskom-ratu.html
further:
MeÄ‘u pomenutih 84.000 žrtava, koje je pobrojao istraživaÄki tim profesora Živkovića, daleko najveći broj, taÄnije preko 47.000, Äine Srbi, dok je izmeÄ‘u 1944. i 1948. stradalo oko 17.000 Nemaca, a naroÄito u tom posleratnom periodu, pobijeno je i oko 6.000 MaÄ‘ara.
Medjutim ovde sam Zivkovic kaze sledece:
Novinar: E. Marjanov http://www.slobodnavojvodina.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3880 Živkoviæ navodi da je u Vojvodini u tom periodu stradalo ukupno 97.000 civila raznih nacionalnosti. Dr Dragoljub Živkoviæ kaže da je za vreme Drugog svetskog rata u Vojvodini bilo 72 logora. Toliko su držali i partizani posle rata. Živkoviæ takoðe kaže da je od 97.000 žrtava koje su stradale posle rata bilo 20.000 dece starosti izmeðu jedne i sedam godina. On istièe da su meðu žrtvama pronašli i 9.800 ljudi bez nacionalnosti.
Prema podacima koje smo mi sakupili u Vojvodini, stradalo je 20.000 vojvoðanskih Nemaca. Taj broj æe biti veæi pošto struèna ekipa Vojvoðanske akademije nauka, koja je od Anketnog odbora Skupštine Vojvodine svojevremeno preuzela projekat, još nije obradila podatke iz Baèkog Jarka i Molindorfa. Za taj posao nedostaje nam oko 2.000 evra. Prema našim procenama, u tim mestima stradalo je oko 7.000 nemaèkih civila, tako da raèunamo da je posle Drugog svetskog rata pobijeno oko 30.000 nemaèkih civila
ISto dalje, sledeci clanak: http://www.bulkeser.de/srpskiwebsait-3.html Dr Dragoljub Živkovic kaze: Do sada smo došli do broja od 110000 stradalih Vojvodana i Vojvodanki. Sva dosadašnja istraživanja su išla do brojke od 70000 stradalih. Utvrdili smo i veoma velike razlike u pogledu tvrdenja koliko je ljudi stradalo iz koje nacionalne skupine. Važno je da kažem da ovo istraživanje pod stradalnicima (žrtvama) podrazumeva ljude koji nisu nosili pušku, dakle nisu pripadali vojnim formacijama. Rec je pre svega o deci, ženama, starcima, mladim ljudima koji nisu hteli da nose pušku. Nažalost, najveci broj stradalnika su sasvim nevini ljudi.
It means, the number is at least 110000 people, and this number is growing.
This article from 2009 confirms the number of 110000, and says "komisija je utvrdila oko 6.500 imena mađarskih žrtava, a pretpostavlja se da ih je bilo još oko 1.000. " http://www.slobodnavojvodina.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=81:pokrajinski-anketni-odbor-dao-dobre-temelje-meudravnoj-komisiji&catid=4:fokus&Itemid=17 Ssh in use ( talk) 00:14, 18 November 2011 (UTC) ssh_in_use Ssh in use ( talk) 23:22, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Regarding link to youtube movie that I removed, problem is not the ethnic origin of author of that movie but obvious fact that movie is a forgery. Here is evidence for that which could be examined in two easy steps:
So, Ssh in use, tell me, which Wikipedia policy supports propagation of obvious forgeries on this web site? PANONIAN 19:10, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
The lead section of this article has had sourced content removed three times. This will be reported as 3R violation. I was in the process of editing the lead to improve its grammar and re-insert the fact that the victims were also Serbs (in fact probably mostly Serbs), when the third reversion occurred. This is my proposed lead:
The Communist purges in Serbia in 1944–1945 were purges committed by members of the Yugoslav Partisan Movement and post-war communist authorities after they gained control over Serbia in 1944. Most of these purges were committed between October 1944 and May 1945. During this time, several tens of thousands of people were executed. The victims were of different ethnic backgrounds, but were mostly Serbs, Hungarians, Germans and Croats. Different sources provide different estimates regarding the number of victims. According to one source, at least 80,000 people were executed in the whole of Serbia, [1] while other source states that the number of victims was more than 100,000. [2] Some 40,000 Hungarian civilians were tortured or summarily executed, [3] and tens of thousands of fleeing Croatian soldiers and civilians were slaughtered. [3] dubious The names of about 4,000 individual Germans who were killed by the Partisans are known, but it is likely that many more ethnic Germans were murdered. [4] These events during the fall of 1944 are often referred to as "bloody autumn". [5] [4] [6]
Peacemaker67 ( talk) 08:23, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
This article inflates number of people who lost their lives in aftermath of WWW. Only relevant sources is Serbian state commission. So far the commission has found only 54,000 men (this article claim that 56,000 died alone). Many of them weren't "purged", but died in combat and in concentration camps (Germans) due to poor conditions. Many who lost lives were notorious quislings and war criminals. --  Bojan  Talk 04:45, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
Among those those names are people who certainly weren't purged (but counted in death toll) are Dragoljub Mihailović [8], Milan Nedić [9], Aćif Hadžiahmetović [10], NeÅ¡ko Nedić (KIA) [11], Nikola Kalabić [12], Svetozar Vujković [13], Dragi Jovanović [14], Tanasije Dinić [15], Velibor Jonić [16], Dragoslav RaÄić (KIA) [17], DragiÅ¡a Vasić (most probably killed by ustashas( [18], Dragutin Keserović [19], Vojislav LukaÄević [20], Milorad Mojić (killed by ustashas) [21], Kosta MuÅ¡icki [22], Milan Aćimović (KIA) [23]
Regarding Hungarisans, the author of Kontrapress article read Tibor Cseres's book and found that his estimates are groundless. He reported than Cseres claims that were more Hungarian casualties in some towns than they had Hungarian residents. Also, the author concluded that many Hungarian were killed in towns that were affected by Novi Sad raid such as Čurug and Žabalj. So, the commision has strong anticommunist bias, but they haven't find 56,000 Germans, 40,000 Hungarians and 24,000 Serbs. --  Bojan  Talk 09:38, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
You should read carefully Sem 1.372 dupliranih imena i oko 1.000 -1.100 stranih državljana iz registra treba izostaviti i žrtve faÅ¡istiÄkog terora koje su proizvoljno uvrÅ¡tene u registar. Utvrdili smo ukupno 41 ovakav upis u registru. 55.973-1.372≈54.000 --  Bojan  Talk 13:53, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
This is probbably the worst article I've seen on English wikipedia. Not a single fact, not a single reliable source, and lots of inflammatory propaganda introduced via references to articles in notorious tadbloid newspapers.
From my point of view, apart from formal disadvantages, this article has more serious issues. Namely, it offers lots of malicious fabrications, with no counterweight in factuality whatsoever.
For example, this vivid character, professor Dragoljub Živković, states that "about half of the Serb victims were killed by occupational forces and the other half of them were executed by post-war communist authorities". And the source? Some mail archive!?
Cure? I can't see why this article is not deleted in the first place. But, an article on the subject is necessary. The work of the 2009 State Commission can shed some light on the subject. Although criticized, the commission did some serious and significant work. It had access to all available sources, including OZNA registries, birth registries, bot state and church, and compiled a comprehensive list. The list includes all dead, regardless of whether they were killed in fighting, sentenced to death, or just missing. It was criticised for a number of duplicate entries (there is even a number of people entered for times), und other issues, but it finaly provided us with numbers with a margine of error probably less than 10%. This list is more or less stable on the two last years, and it can shed some light. For example, number Serbs from Vojvodina on the list is 917, and not some 23-24.000, (or 47.000) as implied by professor Dragoljub Živković. And all work of professor Dragoljub Živković in Commission for Vojvodina is completelly included in the list.
In short, I don’t think wikipedia should allow itself to present claims of victims more then 20 or 40 times larger than the stated facts. It is even worse than famous Jasenovac issue.
In short, the list for the whole territory of Serbia contains 27.367 Germans, 14.567 Serbs, 6.112 Hungarians, 1.360 Albanians and 953 Croats. It is incomplete – some records should be deleted, some more added, but I think we could say with confidence that true number of all dead not included in earlier census is somewhere in the range of +-20% of these numbers.-- Gorran ( talk) 13:33, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
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@ Jozefsu: how do you now that majority are innocent? I don't claim that majority are not. I claim that there were many a) soldiers who died in battles, b) true collaborationist, fascists and war criminals. Chetniks and formations of Ljotić and Nedić fought against partisans until the end of war during retreat of Army Group E, such as Milan Aćimović, Miroslav Trifunović, Dragoslav RaÄić, Vuk Kalaitović, NeÅ¡ko Nedić... Or people who were tried and sentenced to death such as Dragoljub Mihailović, Kosta MuÅ¡icki, Dragoljub Jovanović, Vojislav LukaÄević, Dragutin Keserović, Tanasije Dinić or politicians like Velibor Jonić. Or Milan Nedić who killed himself before his trial. Some 2000-3000 chetniks from Serbia were killed in battles of Tuzla and Zelengora. Many died from tifus in Bosnia because they didn't want to surender.
Among people executed by partisans were members of Arrow Cross Party or Gyula Gömbös's Turan Hunters or resposible for or participants of of Novi Sad raid (and persecutions of Serbs during April 1941) such as László Deák and Ferenc Szombathelyi
Among Croats among these 55-60,000 are members of Ustasa movement --  Bojan  Talk 03:27, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
@ BokicaK: The names you list here have nothing to do with this article. We both know it. We know each other. You're a notorous liar and mischief-maker. I will not let you play your game here as you are playing on Wikipeidia in Serbian language, where you prevented all my edits, and everybody elses edits. Pretty obvious why this subject is so important to you. Not for the sake of honesty, not for good! I ask the Community: How can a religiously devoted communist be NPOV in this page? Just HOW?– Jozefsu ( talk) 03:59, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
It DOES have. They are among those 55-60,000 died. I'll repeat again: Among those those names are people who certainly weren't purged (but counted in death toll) are Dragoljub Mihailović [24], Milan Nedić [25], Aćif Hadžiahmetović [26], NeÅ¡ko Nedić (KIA) [27], Nikola Kalabić [28], Svetozar Vujković [29], Dragi Jovanović [30], Tanasije Dinić [31], Velibor Jonić [32], Dragoslav RaÄić (KIA) [33], DragiÅ¡a Vasić (most probably killed by ustashas( [34], Dragutin Keserović [35], Vojislav LukaÄević [36], Milorad Mojić (killed by ustashas) [37], Kosta MuÅ¡icki [38], Milan Aćimović (KIA) [39]
Member of Turan Hunters Tibor Kisz [40]
@ Peacemaker67:, what is policy here on calling someone 'liar' --  Bojan  Talk 04:08, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
What we gonna do with his reverts? Did I prove that many who died aren't just innocent civilians? Of course, there could be or were people who were indeed innocent (that means who weren't war criminals, fascist or members of fascist or collaborationist forces or organizations, petty thiefs...) --  Bojan  Talk 04:35, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
@ Jozefsu: Did Mihailović, Vujković, Jonić, Jovanović, LukaÄević, GaÅ¡parović, Keserović, VranjeÅ¡ević, Rade Radić were brought to tribunals? Yes or no? Would You like to translate this article from Kontrapres: U merama koje je sprovodila pobedniÄka strana u BaÄkoj bilo je elemenata revanÅ¡izma i retorzije i „ostvarivanja politike ’oko za oko zub za zub’“. Nema sumnje da je jedan broj ubistava, Äak ako uzmemo u obzir želju za osvetom, bio nacionalno motivisan, kao i da je u osvetniÄkom naletu ubijen veći broj lica koja nisu imala ozbiljnu krivicu ili nisu imali realnu krivicu. MeÄ‘utim, pojedini preživeli savremenici Racije 1942, naroÄito oni koji su izgubili Älanove porodice, smatrali su da odgovornosti podleže svaka vrsta podrÅ¡ke i okupacionom poretku. Kako istiÄe istoriÄar Aleksandar KasaÅ¡, na podruÄju ÄŒuruga, Žablja i MoÅ¡orina „prilikom ovih kažnjavanja bila je primetna želja nove vlasti da se ovim merama da izvesno zadovoljenje srpskim porodicama i izvrÅ¡i osveta, ali se nastojalo da se ipak zadovolji normalna sudska forma.“ (source Milan Radanović/Aleksandar KasaÅ¡) --  Bojan  Talk 01:54, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
@ BokicaK:I wanted not to continue, but you're such a blatant manipulator, eh. Yes shurely I write much, but I do it in hope you read it and think about it. I always assume you do. Otherwise its not a discussion.
But let it be, whatever is going on here in the talk still doesn't gratify you right to delete well referenced sentences in the article! You can't just leave a note here about Turan hunters (we all know they existed) and go and delete some random sentence there.
You cannot just come here and tell us the nazis were bad guys, and go back to the article to deliberatley dispute that communists killed innocents.
Shurely nice pick about Draža who "I evade". And what about the government of Serbia (High Court) rehabiliting him as innocent? And stating that his war crimes were a communist forgery, and his trial a politically staged trial? Please I am not sharing my opinion here. These are facts. I am just curious if you think you are smarter than your country? Of course we all know that there was a trial of his, so what is your point anyway? It is not clear to me how is all that connected to the subject of this article?
Everyne can see clearly that all your arguments on the subject criminals/innocents are a pure psychological manipulation. You even use that morbid argument "They killed innocents first, they were as much cruel, so why is the problem if we killed innocents by 'more humane' ways". Everyone here can see that you are defending an ideology, whereas I defend the victims of that ideology.
By the way, you never say anything about the government of Serbia recognizing the fact that bloody purge of innocents did happen, and that monuments and memorials should be erected above the mass graves. Nobody - besides you - say that those mass graves, especially in Vojvodina are graves of war criminals! Show me one mass grave of the purges after september 1944 in Vojvodina - with references - that is a mass grave of war criminals. Please!
To the recent days - the article presents it - these monuments, the crosses, the stones etc. were regularly destroyed, burned, removed. Who else than by the relatives and ideological supporters of the mass-killers (who else would destroy graveyards than those indoctrinated and blinded by an ideology). Please, prove that you're not a liar, and declare openly if you support the removal of monuments from the mass graves of communist purges. Because you claim that there are war-criminals in those graves. The memorial table above most graves have a list of names. Please start your own investigation and form a commission for removal of all names and exhumation of all "suspects" from those graves that you consider "inappropriate". And in meantime explain, why those people were all shot in head without charges and trial. You cannot go away with your notion without explaining why the government hid the supposed reasons of the mass killings and forbid the public to talk about it for more than 60 years. Why the fear if they were war criminals anyway? The killers should have been proud of the killings but instead they sealed with seven seals, destroyed and camouflaged the scene of the crime. Where is the logic here? I don't know much about criminal investigation, but this has all the elements of a criminal act. The communist government should have been proud of purging out war criminals, instead cover up happaned on all levels, and the circumstances of killings were classified as state secret. Come on man, you don't have to be Colombo to see that all this point to mass crime here, and the government was responsible! Because it with all its power defended the perpetrators, and no partisan was ever charged for deliberate act. Be careful, who do you defend here!
And please do not delete referenced material from the article, because you are deliberately degrading what the article is trying to say.– Jozefsu ( talk) 12:57, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
Dear Bojan, first – where and when I said nazis aren't bad guys?! This is not the first time (but I hope the last) that you accuse me of that. Not nice!
Second – If I answer your question about the Novi Sad raid, will you let me alone? And not delete my referenced sentences? I don't want edit war, I just want to edit. In the true spirit of Wikipedia. Here like in the rest of the articles. You know, to look up references, read them, formulate them and place them in, peace by peace building a nice text here. I am not here to modify this article to be in line with my wish or ideology. Just to add original content, as I do everywhere elese in Wikipedia for 4 years now. So let's play your immature game then: Yes, 3000 innocent civilians were killed in Novi Sad 1941 by hungarian soldiers, my nationals, and I am ashamed of those hungarians. Happy now? But in 1944/45 my nationals – many of them innocent civilians too – were killed by partisans, your nationals. Will you accept that fact? Are you ashamed of them too? Or you are happy for the reprisal? Be honest with us! At least try to be, and not go around of the question, by starting another talk, about Turans, this and that.... please!
Thrid – again, you list Turan hunters here and mention the Novi Sad raid, and for you it's all settled? Anybody innocent that was killed by partisans from then on are justified? You list nazi conc. camps, place pictures of chetniks. You think everyone here is a fool, right? If we are interested in that we will look up those – this is a talk page of communist purges, of victims of a communist terror. Are you trying to distract attention from the subject here? The things you list here are for another article. (This is the exact reprise of your "argumentation" from Serbian Wikipedia and I don't want to do it here again. Nije ti dosadno?) There are thousands of pages about Yugoslav partisan's bravery and battles on Wikipedia, but only this one talks about their misconduct. Why not edit this one with the same pure heart and devout attention, for the sake of truth and for the sake of Wikipedia? Remember that no partiality is welcomed. ( Double standard, Bias, Favoritism).
I know about freedom fight of partisans, I know about the nazis, I know about the Holocaust. But please, here, this is different subject, different article. And you are, in my opinion, manipulating. No need for it.– Jozefsu ( talk) 23:27, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
No, I remove claim that 55-600 were killed without trial, because simply it is not true. According to Radanović's estimates, 55-60% died in camps from nonviolent deaths (mostly Volksdeutshe), then many Chetniks were killed in battles (although amnesty was offered. Twice, by the end of war). Then some did have very public trial (Mihailović, etc). And finally, among those are people not killed by partisans (explaind bellow) --  Bojan  Talk 02:59, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
are band sources. For example Hungarian historian EnikÅ‘ A. Sajti says: U danaÅ¡njoj maÄ‘arskoj javnosti putem rada Tibora ÄŒereÅ¡a (Vérbosszú a Bácskában) fiksirala se brojka od 40 hiljada, uprkos tome Å¡to sam posle objavljivanja knjige, u svojoj studiji koju je objavio list Saveza pisaca (Magyar Napló), već ukazala na netaÄnost i nesigurnost objavljenih podataka. PoÅ¡to je ÄŒereÅ¡ova knjiga prevedena na viÅ¡e jezika, meÄ‘u kojima na engleski i hrvatski, tako se i na meÄ‘unarodnom planu fiksirala ova brojka. Uprkos tome Å¡to i vojvoÄ‘anska literatura na maÄ‘arskom jeziku drži ovu brojku preteranom, jer kako ukazuje Marton MatuÅ¡ka u jednoj sumirajućoj studiji u vezi odmazdi, „prema podacima koje knjiga objavljuje u ÄŒurugu je palo 3000, a Zabiju 2000 žrtava. Ni jedno selo nije imalo toliko maÄ‘arskih stanovnika." Ne govoreći o tome, dodaje, da knjiga iskljuÄivo „razmatra dogaÄ‘aje u BaÄkoj", odmazde u Banatu, Baranji ne spominje. (in Aleksandar KasaÅ¡'s book). Translation: In modern Hungarian public, thanks to work by Tibor Cseres (Vérbosszú a Bácskában), number of 40,000 [dead] is fixed, despite fact after publication of [his] book, in my study published by paper of Authors union (Magyar Napló), I already pointed inaccuracy and uncertainity of published data. Thanks to fact that Czeres's book is translated on several language, including English and Croatian, in international public this number is also fixed. Despite fact that even literature from Vojvodina on Hungarian language consider this number exaggerated, since, as Marton Matuszka points in a study regarding retalitations, "acording to data that the [Cseres's] book reveals in ÄŒurug there were 3000 slain, and in Žabalj 2000 victims. Not one [of those two] village had so many Hungarian inhabitants". While not talking about that, he [Matuszka] says that the book exclusively "consider events in BaÄka", retaliations in Banat [and] Baranja doesn't mention.
SrÄ‘an Cvetković, although he genuinely has Phd in field of history, and he is spiritus movens behind Serbian State Commission, is bad/unreliable researcher. Milan Radanović points that his master/PHd thesis, Between hummer and sickle has manny inacuraices. E.g. Cvetković is cited here in article/feuilleton from VeÄenje Novisti "Broz na belom konju". In very first sentence he says: Trijumfalni ulazak J. B. Tita na belom konju 20. oktobra 1944. preko PanÄevaÄkog mosta uneo je zebnju u srca mnogih BeograÄ‘ana. (triumphal entry of J. B. Tito [in Belgrade] on white horse on 20th October 1944 via PanÄevo bridge brought aching in heart of many residents of Belgrade). Fact #1. Tito arived in Belgrade on 26th October, on 20th October he was in VrÅ¡ac, awaiting arrival of Ivan Å ubaÅ¡ić, Fact #2 PanÄevo bridge was destroyed several days earlier by retreating Wehrmacht (or by Allied planes), so Fact #3 Broz only could get in Belgrade via Soviet patrol boat.
@ Peacemaker67:, what do you say? --  Bojan  Talk 04:30, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
Should I defend myself? The person who is manipulating is called a manipulator. It's not an insult, it's an assessment based on observation. Bojane, why I cannot find the second list of yours in the database? Dragutin Gavrilović, Božidar Purić, Dragoslav Stranjaković, Salamon Bakran. Are you really telling us truth here? What secondary source you are using for these?
"His commission" – again you are slightly slanting here. It is not his but of the government of Serbia, and of the two academies of Serbia and Hungary. There is just too many academics involved here for you to accuse them for unreliability. I don't even understand how dare you, with your limited knowledge, do it. Are you really accusing the National Academias of not one but two countries for forgery?! Or you have access to the secret classified files from the UDB, OZNA, SDB and VOS-liquidator unit?– Jozefsu ( talk) 00:00, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
And I'm sorry, but I need to stress this too: Bojan knows I am of hungarian etnicity, so he emhasizes the Novi Sad raid and the 'Turans' – to intimidate me. That is an obvious manipulation. He's trying to chase me away, that's all he does.
Just some forgotten facts here: all the perpetrators of the Novi Sad crime were prosecuted. But no partisan was prosecuted for 1944/45. Some of them were even awarded a medal, others were at high position, lived respected lives. Some guards who robbed prisoners in retention camps where demobilized, that's all reported. Bojan knows this. But the world also needs to know this side of things, for the sake of righteousness.
Bojane, how come you forget that many more serbs killed serbs, based on ideology, during and after WW2? Just this one man, Ratko Dražević UDBA leader claims he killed with his own hand 2000 prisoners in ÄŒaÄak. Killer is killer, murder is murder. I don't care what sign he wears, what language he speaks... The executioners names should be known, the line of command behind the purges need to come to light, and the victims deserve to be named and buried with humane dignity. Eh, these strange, alien words to you? ...even communists purged other communists after the war, in battle for power. Hebrang, Slobodan Penezić Krcun, Ranković, names sound familiar to you?– Jozefsu ( talk) 00:35, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
Read what I wrote: OK, in the meantime Purić, Stranjaković were removed from the list.. Yes, I said that that people were in the list in 2014. Thanks to (in)competence of Srđan Cvetković's commision. People who died in Auswitz, Mauthsausen, Jasenovac ARE still in the list and people count them as victims of partisans, not Germans. And Milorad Mojić was killed in Zagreb by Ustashas in event described in this article, yet he is still he is counted as sustenanced to death
Fact that are You of hugarian ethnicity doesn't meant anything to me. I'm against revisionist of all eccentricities who speak bullshit. As I demontrated by pointing that many Serbian collaborators and war criminals are in the list. Many of ~15,000 Serbs weren't executed, the died in battled against Partisans or were killed by American/British bombers, because they were retreating together with Army Gropu E. Yes, some perpetuateros of Novi Sad raid were tried as Hungary wanted to show that it was trully democratic society in the when Miklos Kalay soughted to make deal with United Kingdom and pull Hungary out of war. Let see what KasaÅ¡ says (pages 143-144) : Od 14. do 23.decembra 1943.godine održano je i suÄ‘enje glavnim vinovnicima racije. Ono je koincidiralo sa promenom stava prema Srbima. Tada je suÄ‘eno: Ferencu Feketehalmi Cajdneru, Jožefu GraÅ¡iu, Laslu Deaku, Martonu Zeldiu i dragima. Namenjeno demokratskoj javnosti Zapada, i na odreÄ‘eni naÄin Srbima (zadovoljenje za raciju), suÄ‘enje je okonÄano kao farsa, budući da je svim osuÄ‘enim omogućeno da u januara 1944.godine pobegnu avionom na nemaÄku teritoriju. Translation: From December 14th till 23rd December 1943 trial of main perpetuates of Novi Sad raid'was held. It coincided wiht change of policy toward Serbs. Among defendants were Ferenc Feketehalmy-Czeydner, József Grassy, Laslo Deak, Márton Zöldy and others. It is intended for the democratic public of the West, and in a certain way to the Serbs (satisfaction for raid), the trial was concluded as a farce since all prisoners were allowed to flee by plan on German hold territory in January 1944. I doubt that Dražević ever said that he himself killed 2,000 men, especially since that the commission found only 756 dead from ÄŒaÄak and 1,711 from wider area (municipalites ÄŒaÄak, Gornji Milanovac, Ivanjica and LuÄani. For exampe this man from ÄŒaÄak died somewhere in Bosnia, perhaps from typhoid or killed in Tuzla or Zelenegora).
I'll report this on Administrator noticeboard. I'm tired of you personal attack, trolling and using this page as forum. --  Bojan  Talk 03:16, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
I don't miss anything you say, unfortunately. But we are talking on two levels, each of us talk about a completely different thing. All you do is playing with the numbers of victims, tryng to lessen (as if that was possible!) the extent of the crime (reread your last sentence). On other instances you try to relativize the subject and try justify the killings, so indirectly you are defending the perpetrators. Please don't deny it, everybody sees what you are doing. Even in the article itself. By the way as for the article, in the serbian Wikipedia you directly demonstrated this by incredibly violent attitude against everyone and deleteing every edit that was not in line with your agenda. Whereas I – in line with the current official investigation – talk about things like how many innocents were killed, where they are buried, what was their name and how to bury them as human beings (I believe the government should exhume them and even pay their proper burial). Come on, what difference it makes if "only" 1000 was innocent out of 2000 executed? What about the 1000 then? What is your answer, solution? Leave them in the unsigned graves tigether with the criminals? (following your logic) You see, that is why the process of rehabilitation (independent investigation, without revisonism) is important. Do you see yourself and can you rethink your used arguments? The war was over before 74 years so today only the extent of war crime is important, because up to this day nobody was charged, and this was a top level national secret sealed in archives. So if you still don't understand why this is more important than the numbers the answer is because war is over, we are not engaging in war anymore (it looks like you still do in your head and heart) and the countries want to ensure peaceful future coegzistence, not to be forever stuck in the hatred game! Only rightful dealing with the past can settle this, and putting away with it but not to swipe it under the carpet, but putting ALL cards on the table (illuminating BOTH sides of the picture). I can write much much more, but you already lost your cool, and this is exactly what was on the Serbian Wikipedia – don't lead anywhere.
And you report as much as you can. So I can point to what you have done with me on the Serbian Wikipedia, how much bitterness I suffered because you and your idelogy friends persecuted me, frightening me with a power of administrator. You were problematic even as a sysop, and you have a record of misbehavior there that you cannot deny. And as for this here, if your intensions to settle the so-called "dispute" are honest, why didn't you notified me as is the Wikipedia procedure? You were a sysop for long time, you cannot say you don't know the rules.
P. S. As for who insults who. If you are really not interested in my nationality, why did you stress not once but twice the Turan hunters? Even to the extent of almost writing an article here about them – doing this just because you think among the victims of purges was a Turan? According to this, who of us used this talk page for a forum? And what else was that if not manipulation aimed to my nationality? And sentences in bold like "local hungarians helped the nazis"?? What were you trying to prove with those if not that hungarians cannot be trusted? (By the way this exact phrase was used by the communists to start the purges in Vojvodina.)
For Turan hunters let me share this story: my dad was 14 years old and played near the camp of hungarian Turan hunters. [a] My dad was also hungarian, but these criminals cought him and beated him anyway. My dad says they were bored so they "played" a little with him by giving him slaps. He managed to escape. Only for the second try, because they caught him again. He was a skinny boy, these were strong men. My dad hated Hungary all his life because of this. Besides, my two uncles were partisans, fought in the battle of Batina..... And dear "friend" what do you think why I didn't share this true story here? Because there is no reason for it! It doesn't have to do anything with the title of this article, as much as your chetnik pictures don't! You place pictures of chetniks and nazis in the talk page about the victims of red terror, and then you are complaining about somebody trolling you? You canvass using the talk page as a pasteboard, so what makes you nervous is basically double-standard. You can do this, but others' arguments make you pissed off.– Jozefsu ( talk) 14:32, 1 May 2019 (UTC)