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This article was nominated for deletion on 25 July 2009. The result of the discussion was keep. |
How about the events of the days and weeks leading up to the coup? (Or, to be neutral, to the removal of the president?) -- Uncle Ed ( talk) 01:39, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
See 2009 Honduran constitutional crisis, thanks! -- Caltrano ( talk) 03:07, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
After extensive discussion at 2009 Honduran constitutional crisis the title was changed from "coup d'etat" to "constitutional crisis". In keeping with that consensus, I recommend changing this title to: 1) 2009 Honduran constitutional crisis chronology OR 2) 2009 Honduran crisis chronology The former directly associates with the main article. The latter is shorter and NPOV avoids taking sides with whether it is constitutional, political or an illegal coup d' etat. DLH ( talk) 12:38, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
This page in a nutshell:
|
Wikipedia determines the recognizability of a name by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject.
Material from mainstream news organizations is welcomed, particularly the high-quality end of the market, for example the Washington Post in the United States and the Times in Britain, as well as widely used conglomerates such as the Associated Press.
HAVANA -- Fidel Castro blames the coup in Honduras on the U.S. Embassy in that Central American country ...
Castro blames Bush appointees for Honduran coup, The Associated Press (published in the Washington Post)
The de facto government of Honduras says Mr. Zelaya was legally removed based on a warrant for his arrest. But nations around the world, whether through the United Nations General Assembly or the Organization of American States, have denounced his ouster as an illegal coup. [1]
The New York Times
The purpose of an article's title is to enable that article to be found by interested readers, and nothing more. In particular, the current title of a page does not imply either a preference for that name, or that any alternative name is discouraged in the text of articles.
I support this move. -- Almarco ( talk) 02:01, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
I oppose this move. -- Rico 23:31, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
There was no page move request. The title change was only proposed.
[2] SqueakBox's undiscussed ninja move was invalid. Can we get another administrator to change it back?
SqueakBox never seems to need consensus before unilaterally changing article names. He always seems to know it's controversial, but does it anyway. --
Rico 04:01, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
The talk page shows that there was clearly no consensus for this move, and still isn't. To expand on my remark above - if someone wants to create Chronology of events of the 2008/9 Honduran constitutional crisis, that might be useful. But this article is about the events of the 28 June coup and its aftermath. Rd232/ Disembrangler ( talk) 10:41, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
SqueakBox proposed calling the
Chronology of events of the 2009 Honduran coup d'état, a "political" crisis
[3] -- one minute before moving the article
[4] -- as usual (for him) with no consensus -- this time with zero consensus.
Were we supposed to discuss SqueakBox's proposal between 8:57 and 8:58, or did he post his proposal a minute beforehand thinking that we couldn't claim his (
WP:OWN) move hadn't been discussed?
For the fourth time, SqueakBox has taken it upon himself to move an article, even as a discussion was going on about whether to do a different move, and even though there was no consensus for the move!
Suddenly moving an article, in the middle of a discussion on whether to move the article, in the absence of consensus to move the article -- four times
[5]
[6]
[7]
[8] -- is presumptuous beyond belief!
It looks like
gaming the system to me, and that's disruptive.
SqueakBox unilaterally declares that the title is POV, or unilaterally declares that the title establishes that the article is a content fork, and then -- without consensus behind SqueakBox's opinions -- he unilaterally moves the article. --
Rico 18:25, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
Moved back to original name, since there was no consensus for a move. Rd232 talk 07:12, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Moved from the article:
A source within the de facto government said it was unlikely they would change their mind and let Zelaya return.
- Cite: "Honduran coup leaders open to talk but not on Zelaya". Reuters. 2009-07-29. Retrieved 2009-07-29.
The news story title is not the same as the title of the source the hyperlink points to, which is entitled "Honduran leader softens tone in fight over Zelaya". Is the source cited the link, or the news story named? -- Rico 17:43, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
You've never looked at how Reuters does news, have you. The link now points to a completely different story, with a datestamp of today, not yesterday, so no, its no the same story. This is because Reuters has recycled the story ID to keep it in the worldNews section. Reuters is infuriating this way, but there's nothing to be done about it. They don't delete the old story, but they do move it. Rather than just delete the sentence, you could have looked for the article on the Reuters site, as I did, and update the URL. I will add this back into the article. Rsheptak ( talk) 18:27, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
Rsheptak wrote me, on my talk page, "I agree that not every sentence needs a source, but if the source has already been cited, then put that sentence with the sentence where the source is cited instead of set off by itself so that there's no confusion. By being set off as a separate paragraph, its not clear its associated with any source." -- Rico 05:12, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
For the editor of Aug 13 please fix your source. I put broken citation for a reason ...your link is broken. Please do not accuse me of pov pushing again, because fixing your broken source is a requirement and it is not povpushing it is the rule. If you revert it without fixing the link then I will complain about you creating an editing war and refusing to provide sources. Summermoondancer ( talk) 02:52, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
Does it count as WP:OR to add up confirmed deaths since the coup, by categories (killed or mortally wounded in protests, and non-protest murders various groups - politicians, activist leaders, press)? Obviously, some unknown portion of the latter categories will be non-coup-related murders... I'd love to include the yearly murder risk for average Honduran adults for comparison, but I suspect that would be considered OR.
If it's not OR, these would be important numbers to calculate, and good candidates for inclusion in the main article. 189.132.34.47 ( talk) 22:14, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
Currently listed as being imposed on both August 10 and 11 with citation to same AFP article. I added the entry on the 11th which was my reading of the article but missed seeing the item on the 10th. Can someone with access to more local info sort out which day the curfew was reimposed? Thanks. Abby Kelleyite ( talk) 16:43, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Ed Wood's Wig added an UNBALANCED tag to this article, implying that some part of it was either inaccurate or unbalanced, and pointed to the non-existant discussion on the talk page. RlendogRlendog agreed with him. I'd like to suggest there is no supporting discussion on this page, and that we need to have that discussion before tagging it. This section is for those who feel there are inaccurate or unbalanced points made in the article to articulate and discuss them. Rsheptak ( talk) 22:51, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
There is an RfC in the International reaction to the 2009 Honduran military coup article. -- Rico 15:45, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
There are several problems with this source that a cursory reading revealed:
Additionally, and not related to its credibility issues, more to the quality of it as a source
It would be good to do a rewrite of this paragraph, giving more detail as to the entire accord, using a better source, IMHO.
Moogwrench ( talk) 09:57, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was move page. Consensus at this time indicates a consensus to move as proposed. PeterSymonds ( talk) 09:56, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Chronology of events of the 2009 Honduran coup d'état → Chronology of the 2009 Honduran constitutional crisis — Relisted. @ harej 09:13, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
I am well aware of the early discussions (in July 2009) regarding the title and POV issues, but I would appreciate your evaluation of the following:
Since the result of the recent Request for deletion of 2009 Honduran coup d'état was "no consensus" and it appears that 2009 Honduran constitutional crisis will remain the umbrella article of Fourth ballot box, 2009 Honduran coup d'etat, and Micheletti regime, I propose that this chronology, which has grown to encompass events from timeframes covered by the above articles (up to eight months before the coup, and the machinations, negotiations, and significant notable events subsequent to June 28) be renamed to reflect this.
I understand that this article was originally designed to discuss (as its lede still suggests) the events of June 28 and the immediate aftermath. The current chronology in the article, however, goes beyond the material in 2009 Honduran coup d'état and encompasses a lot of material from Fourth ballot box and Micheletti regime. I might also note that, anticipating criticism from some regarding WP:NAME conventions, that the vast majority of RSs use the word "crisis" rather than "coup" to refer to the entire situation (previous to the coup, events of June 28, and throughout the last few months), and retain "coup" to describe only the events of June 28. I suggest the above name as an analogue to the umbrella article. Moogwrench ( talk) 19:49, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
Oppose The WP:RS is coup d'état. To describe otherwise is a denial of the coup and its aftermath. Cathar11 ( talk) 19:55, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
Oppose and trim. Most of the material refers to events after June 28 or immediately preceding it, the material dealing with the coup itself clearly overweights the material dealing with the more general constitutional crisis. Some sections (Nov 11, 2008 to May 27, 2009) can be removed and their material used as an introduction to the chronology. JRSP ( talk) 05:30, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Comments are welcome at Talk:2009_Honduran_coup_d'état#RfC:_Do_the_sources_support_the_mention_of_coup_as_part_of_the_constitutional_crisis_in_the_lede_of_this_article.3F. Thanks! Moogwrench ( talk) 21:09, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
Honduras weekly is a self published online magazine and not a reliable source. Other info fro bblogs have also been added. Oppinon pieces are not RS. If RS cant be located they will be removed Cathar11 ( talk) 23:25, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
The editorial vision of Honduras Weekly is to promote a thoughtful, civil, intelligent, and balanced exchange about news, events, and people in Honduras. The idea is to be receptive and respectful of everyone's point of view. Our underlying assumption is that truth is not absolute... that each of us possesses our own truths, based on our own unique backgrounds, experiences, and minds. And that thus we are naturally bound to have our own interpretations of things that happen or that are said. We believe that our differences are to be celebrated, not feared. In the end, we can always agree to disagree. In the interim, we just think it's a good thing to listen to as many human beings as happen to come our way, and encourage a conversation... for the sake of the conversation. (emphasis mine)
Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for checking the facts, or with no editorial oversight. Such sources include websites and publications expressing views that are widely acknowledged as extremist, or promotional in nature, or which rely heavily on rumors and personal opinions. Questionable sources should only be used as sources of material on themselves, especially in articles about themselves. Questionable sources are generally unsuitable as a basis for citing contentious claims about third parties. (emphasis mine)
Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason self-published media—whether books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, blogs, Internet forum postings, or tweets—are largely not acceptable.
Some sources may be considered reliable for statements as to their author's opinion, but not for statements of fact. (emphasis mine)
For this reason, Hondurasnews.com (self-published ezine with no known editorial staff) and the contributions to Hondurasweekly.com (opinion articles without editorial oversight [double whammy]) are not RS, and should be tagged and/or deleted along with content cited. Moogwrench ( talk) 00:35, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
I will be deleting any links to archives of Bloomberg.com, which should not exist.
Under Item B.3 of their terms of service, in a section entitled Linking and Framing Terms and Conditions, they state:
Further, you may not archive, cache, or mirror any Bloomberg.com Web page or portions of a Web page.
Quoting from primary sources such as court records are origanal research and against wp:rs. Cathar11 ( talk) 20:28, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
This is an in-depth news article in the largest newspaper of Honduras, not an "editorial". Alb28 ( talk) 22:21, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
Thats why it says Marilyn Méndez. Redacción La Prensa: (Editorial La Prensa) and expresses her personal opinions throughout. Its an editorial piece. Cathar11 ( talk) 22:36, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
I'll be copy editing this article over the next week or so. I've placed a {{GOCEinuse}}
at the top of the article. Please do not remove it.
Bejinhan
Talk 06:44, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Chronology of the 2009 Honduran constitutional crisis article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
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Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
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This article was nominated for deletion on 25 July 2009. The result of the discussion was keep. |
How about the events of the days and weeks leading up to the coup? (Or, to be neutral, to the removal of the president?) -- Uncle Ed ( talk) 01:39, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
See 2009 Honduran constitutional crisis, thanks! -- Caltrano ( talk) 03:07, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
After extensive discussion at 2009 Honduran constitutional crisis the title was changed from "coup d'etat" to "constitutional crisis". In keeping with that consensus, I recommend changing this title to: 1) 2009 Honduran constitutional crisis chronology OR 2) 2009 Honduran crisis chronology The former directly associates with the main article. The latter is shorter and NPOV avoids taking sides with whether it is constitutional, political or an illegal coup d' etat. DLH ( talk) 12:38, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
This page in a nutshell:
|
Wikipedia determines the recognizability of a name by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject.
Material from mainstream news organizations is welcomed, particularly the high-quality end of the market, for example the Washington Post in the United States and the Times in Britain, as well as widely used conglomerates such as the Associated Press.
HAVANA -- Fidel Castro blames the coup in Honduras on the U.S. Embassy in that Central American country ...
Castro blames Bush appointees for Honduran coup, The Associated Press (published in the Washington Post)
The de facto government of Honduras says Mr. Zelaya was legally removed based on a warrant for his arrest. But nations around the world, whether through the United Nations General Assembly or the Organization of American States, have denounced his ouster as an illegal coup. [1]
The New York Times
The purpose of an article's title is to enable that article to be found by interested readers, and nothing more. In particular, the current title of a page does not imply either a preference for that name, or that any alternative name is discouraged in the text of articles.
I support this move. -- Almarco ( talk) 02:01, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
I oppose this move. -- Rico 23:31, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
There was no page move request. The title change was only proposed.
[2] SqueakBox's undiscussed ninja move was invalid. Can we get another administrator to change it back?
SqueakBox never seems to need consensus before unilaterally changing article names. He always seems to know it's controversial, but does it anyway. --
Rico 04:01, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
The talk page shows that there was clearly no consensus for this move, and still isn't. To expand on my remark above - if someone wants to create Chronology of events of the 2008/9 Honduran constitutional crisis, that might be useful. But this article is about the events of the 28 June coup and its aftermath. Rd232/ Disembrangler ( talk) 10:41, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
SqueakBox proposed calling the
Chronology of events of the 2009 Honduran coup d'état, a "political" crisis
[3] -- one minute before moving the article
[4] -- as usual (for him) with no consensus -- this time with zero consensus.
Were we supposed to discuss SqueakBox's proposal between 8:57 and 8:58, or did he post his proposal a minute beforehand thinking that we couldn't claim his (
WP:OWN) move hadn't been discussed?
For the fourth time, SqueakBox has taken it upon himself to move an article, even as a discussion was going on about whether to do a different move, and even though there was no consensus for the move!
Suddenly moving an article, in the middle of a discussion on whether to move the article, in the absence of consensus to move the article -- four times
[5]
[6]
[7]
[8] -- is presumptuous beyond belief!
It looks like
gaming the system to me, and that's disruptive.
SqueakBox unilaterally declares that the title is POV, or unilaterally declares that the title establishes that the article is a content fork, and then -- without consensus behind SqueakBox's opinions -- he unilaterally moves the article. --
Rico 18:25, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
Moved back to original name, since there was no consensus for a move. Rd232 talk 07:12, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Moved from the article:
A source within the de facto government said it was unlikely they would change their mind and let Zelaya return.
- Cite: "Honduran coup leaders open to talk but not on Zelaya". Reuters. 2009-07-29. Retrieved 2009-07-29.
The news story title is not the same as the title of the source the hyperlink points to, which is entitled "Honduran leader softens tone in fight over Zelaya". Is the source cited the link, or the news story named? -- Rico 17:43, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
You've never looked at how Reuters does news, have you. The link now points to a completely different story, with a datestamp of today, not yesterday, so no, its no the same story. This is because Reuters has recycled the story ID to keep it in the worldNews section. Reuters is infuriating this way, but there's nothing to be done about it. They don't delete the old story, but they do move it. Rather than just delete the sentence, you could have looked for the article on the Reuters site, as I did, and update the URL. I will add this back into the article. Rsheptak ( talk) 18:27, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
Rsheptak wrote me, on my talk page, "I agree that not every sentence needs a source, but if the source has already been cited, then put that sentence with the sentence where the source is cited instead of set off by itself so that there's no confusion. By being set off as a separate paragraph, its not clear its associated with any source." -- Rico 05:12, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
For the editor of Aug 13 please fix your source. I put broken citation for a reason ...your link is broken. Please do not accuse me of pov pushing again, because fixing your broken source is a requirement and it is not povpushing it is the rule. If you revert it without fixing the link then I will complain about you creating an editing war and refusing to provide sources. Summermoondancer ( talk) 02:52, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
Does it count as WP:OR to add up confirmed deaths since the coup, by categories (killed or mortally wounded in protests, and non-protest murders various groups - politicians, activist leaders, press)? Obviously, some unknown portion of the latter categories will be non-coup-related murders... I'd love to include the yearly murder risk for average Honduran adults for comparison, but I suspect that would be considered OR.
If it's not OR, these would be important numbers to calculate, and good candidates for inclusion in the main article. 189.132.34.47 ( talk) 22:14, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
Currently listed as being imposed on both August 10 and 11 with citation to same AFP article. I added the entry on the 11th which was my reading of the article but missed seeing the item on the 10th. Can someone with access to more local info sort out which day the curfew was reimposed? Thanks. Abby Kelleyite ( talk) 16:43, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Ed Wood's Wig added an UNBALANCED tag to this article, implying that some part of it was either inaccurate or unbalanced, and pointed to the non-existant discussion on the talk page. RlendogRlendog agreed with him. I'd like to suggest there is no supporting discussion on this page, and that we need to have that discussion before tagging it. This section is for those who feel there are inaccurate or unbalanced points made in the article to articulate and discuss them. Rsheptak ( talk) 22:51, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
There is an RfC in the International reaction to the 2009 Honduran military coup article. -- Rico 15:45, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
There are several problems with this source that a cursory reading revealed:
Additionally, and not related to its credibility issues, more to the quality of it as a source
It would be good to do a rewrite of this paragraph, giving more detail as to the entire accord, using a better source, IMHO.
Moogwrench ( talk) 09:57, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was move page. Consensus at this time indicates a consensus to move as proposed. PeterSymonds ( talk) 09:56, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Chronology of events of the 2009 Honduran coup d'état → Chronology of the 2009 Honduran constitutional crisis — Relisted. @ harej 09:13, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
I am well aware of the early discussions (in July 2009) regarding the title and POV issues, but I would appreciate your evaluation of the following:
Since the result of the recent Request for deletion of 2009 Honduran coup d'état was "no consensus" and it appears that 2009 Honduran constitutional crisis will remain the umbrella article of Fourth ballot box, 2009 Honduran coup d'etat, and Micheletti regime, I propose that this chronology, which has grown to encompass events from timeframes covered by the above articles (up to eight months before the coup, and the machinations, negotiations, and significant notable events subsequent to June 28) be renamed to reflect this.
I understand that this article was originally designed to discuss (as its lede still suggests) the events of June 28 and the immediate aftermath. The current chronology in the article, however, goes beyond the material in 2009 Honduran coup d'état and encompasses a lot of material from Fourth ballot box and Micheletti regime. I might also note that, anticipating criticism from some regarding WP:NAME conventions, that the vast majority of RSs use the word "crisis" rather than "coup" to refer to the entire situation (previous to the coup, events of June 28, and throughout the last few months), and retain "coup" to describe only the events of June 28. I suggest the above name as an analogue to the umbrella article. Moogwrench ( talk) 19:49, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
Oppose The WP:RS is coup d'état. To describe otherwise is a denial of the coup and its aftermath. Cathar11 ( talk) 19:55, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
Oppose and trim. Most of the material refers to events after June 28 or immediately preceding it, the material dealing with the coup itself clearly overweights the material dealing with the more general constitutional crisis. Some sections (Nov 11, 2008 to May 27, 2009) can be removed and their material used as an introduction to the chronology. JRSP ( talk) 05:30, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Comments are welcome at Talk:2009_Honduran_coup_d'état#RfC:_Do_the_sources_support_the_mention_of_coup_as_part_of_the_constitutional_crisis_in_the_lede_of_this_article.3F. Thanks! Moogwrench ( talk) 21:09, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
Honduras weekly is a self published online magazine and not a reliable source. Other info fro bblogs have also been added. Oppinon pieces are not RS. If RS cant be located they will be removed Cathar11 ( talk) 23:25, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
The editorial vision of Honduras Weekly is to promote a thoughtful, civil, intelligent, and balanced exchange about news, events, and people in Honduras. The idea is to be receptive and respectful of everyone's point of view. Our underlying assumption is that truth is not absolute... that each of us possesses our own truths, based on our own unique backgrounds, experiences, and minds. And that thus we are naturally bound to have our own interpretations of things that happen or that are said. We believe that our differences are to be celebrated, not feared. In the end, we can always agree to disagree. In the interim, we just think it's a good thing to listen to as many human beings as happen to come our way, and encourage a conversation... for the sake of the conversation. (emphasis mine)
Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for checking the facts, or with no editorial oversight. Such sources include websites and publications expressing views that are widely acknowledged as extremist, or promotional in nature, or which rely heavily on rumors and personal opinions. Questionable sources should only be used as sources of material on themselves, especially in articles about themselves. Questionable sources are generally unsuitable as a basis for citing contentious claims about third parties. (emphasis mine)
Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason self-published media—whether books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, blogs, Internet forum postings, or tweets—are largely not acceptable.
Some sources may be considered reliable for statements as to their author's opinion, but not for statements of fact. (emphasis mine)
For this reason, Hondurasnews.com (self-published ezine with no known editorial staff) and the contributions to Hondurasweekly.com (opinion articles without editorial oversight [double whammy]) are not RS, and should be tagged and/or deleted along with content cited. Moogwrench ( talk) 00:35, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
I will be deleting any links to archives of Bloomberg.com, which should not exist.
Under Item B.3 of their terms of service, in a section entitled Linking and Framing Terms and Conditions, they state:
Further, you may not archive, cache, or mirror any Bloomberg.com Web page or portions of a Web page.
Quoting from primary sources such as court records are origanal research and against wp:rs. Cathar11 ( talk) 20:28, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
This is an in-depth news article in the largest newspaper of Honduras, not an "editorial". Alb28 ( talk) 22:21, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
Thats why it says Marilyn Méndez. Redacción La Prensa: (Editorial La Prensa) and expresses her personal opinions throughout. Its an editorial piece. Cathar11 ( talk) 22:36, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
I'll be copy editing this article over the next week or so. I've placed a {{GOCEinuse}}
at the top of the article. Please do not remove it.
Bejinhan
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