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This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jeanettegome72.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 17:38, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
is considered by scholars to be the first women writer
This is obviously wrong as written: Sappho predated her by something like 2000 years. Would the original author care to expand on what he meant? -- Paul Drye
Yep, entirely incorrect. She might be the first European woman to have made a living from writing, though even that is contested. We're not sure what Marie de France did for a living. --MichaelTinkler
Very true. What was meant by the statement, was that de Pizan was the first women author of note, in Europe to make a living from being a writer. This came directly from my humanities instructor -- although I myself find such statements hard to believe without rigid substantiation. I agree with the change. -- Maveric149
Sorry - I love the picture; Christine might even have overseen it (she did for some of her books produced in her lifetime), but it's an image from a book owned by a library or museum. They hold copyright - and tend to protect them jealously. --MichaelTinkler
What's with all the references to her via her first name? Is this conventional? Loren
Convention had not changed by Christine's day, I am certain of this. I'm not certain of the timeline for that change either, but I'd guess closer to the age of print (though even then, spellings and appellations weren't always rigid). It is conventional to refer to anyone -- male or female -- with an "of somewhere" by primary name. So in the same way we discuss Mary Queen of Scots as "Mary" so we discuss Christine de Pizan or Jean de Meun as "Christine" or "Jean." Mys46637 18:45, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
She also wrote about the victory of Joan of Arc at the Battle of Agincourt
If this statement is correct, it should be clarified that this is Alternative history. (Joan was 3 at the time, and the French lost.) -- Townmouse 08:38, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Some parts of this article read more like a persuasive paper than an encyclopedic article. -- Fang Aili 17:22, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
The text overall isn't that bad. The references are cited in that ugly parenthetical way, but there's nothing too POV in there. Some uncited weasel phrasing ("Overall, de Pizan and her writings have been celebrated and embraced" By whom? We don't even have a "Influence" section.) crops up now and again, but it's nothing a rigorous copy-edit couldn't fix. The headings, though, are terrible. "Establishing her literary reputation" "Making her mark" "an authoritative rhetorician". The whole article seems like it would do well to receive a division into "Life" and "Work", without all the high-flown pop biographical phrasing. Geuiwogbil 18:56, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Wait, I reread it. Indeed, it seems too much like a essaye with aims at persuasion. Something more serious need be done. Geuiwogbil 18:58, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
I know that her name is a transliteration of French, but is it correctly Pisan or Pizan? The article is inconsistant as to which is preferred or correct.
Christine's name comes from her father's city of origin: Pizzano. So technically, Pizan is probably more accurate, but Pisan is a French phonetic spelling of the proper sound to her name (but it promotes the misunderstanding that she was from Pisa). Understandably French speakers tend to use Pisan, Italian speakers Pizan. I'm not sure if there is a "correct" spelling that Anglophones should adopt; consistency is the best best.
Mys46637 18:40, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Her name: the city of origin, as noted above, is Pizzano. Until a decade or two ago, it was often given as "Pisan" in French AND English, but that's both incorrect and conceivably misleading: as noted above, some readers and students assumed that she or her father came from Pisa. More important, she herself should not be referred to as "Pizan" or "de Pizan," as in the article; that is the equivalent of referring to Guillaume d'Orange/William of Orange as "Orange." The poet in question is either "Christine" or "Christine de Pizan," but definitely not Pizan. I edited the article to correct that.
Her work: there is a contradiction in the article, and I have left it. In the 2nd par., we read that she completed 41 pieces, but later we read that she wrote over 300 ballades as well as other poems. How to reconcile these statements? Njl2 ( talk) 14:50, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
I could have sworn Etienne du Castel was a castle not a man's name. Are the writer's of this page sure that was his name?
Heri Larien 01:24, 22 December 2006 (UTC)Heri Larien
Been poking around in researching her life and it seems her date of birth is somewhat contested (even on the French Wikipedia it's given as both 1363 and 1364, in different places; there was at least one source that I found that suggested 1365 instead), as is her date of death (as nothing was heard from her after her work on Joan of Arc, published in July of 1429). Not sure if anyone has any more concrete sources for any of these topics? I'll keep looking and see if I can amend the article as necessary.
Regardless, the math doesn't add up--if she was born in 1363 and married at age fifteen to Etienne, then she would be married in 1378, not 1380 (since Charles died late 1380, I suppose they would have married earlier in the year... Even if she was born late in 1363 it would still mean 1378 or early 1379 as a wedding year if she was fifteen at the time of marriage). Similarly if she was born in 1364, her marriage would have been in 1379 instead (as French Wikipedia suggests)... Although again I've got no concrete sources on that other than consensus that she was married at fifteen, although Willard suggests they married in 1980. If she was widowed at the age of 24 in 1390, then that would mean she was born in 1366; some sources argue her husband died in 1389 instead (meaning a birthdate of 1365, should she have been widowed at age 24), although French Wikipedia concurs with the date of 1390.
I don't suppose anyone could shed some light on this matter? Or would it be something that should be smoothed out in the article (eg: remove vague age references if concrete dates are available that conflict with said age references)? Tehae ( talk) 19:54, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Hi all,
A possibly useful resource - there was a five-year academic project to produce a digital edition of the Queen's Manuscript (BL Harley MS. 4431), a comprehensive collected work prepared for Isabeau of Bavaria under de Pizan's supervision, c. 1414. (The "presents her book" illustration here is taken from the MS). As well as many smaller works, it includes a full (?) copy of Le livre de la cité des dames.
I'm currently working with the BL and the AHRC (the funders of the project), hence why I'm leaving this note here rather than just adding the links; any objection to my adding one or both to the external links? Andrew Gray ( talk) 13:36, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
In trying to understand more about Christine's life and works, I have come across the following resources. Would these be a good place to get information about her?
Laennec, Christine Moneera. “Unladylike Polemics: Christine De Pizan's Strategies of Attack and Defense.” Tulsa Studies in Women's Literature, vol. 12, no. 1, 1993, pp. 47–59., www.jstor.org/stable/463756.
Rigby, S. H. “The Wife of Bath, Christine De Pizan, and the Medieval Case for Women.” The Chaucer Review, vol. 35, no. 2, 2000, pp. 133–165., www.jstor.org/stable/25096124.
Willard, Charity Cannon. Christine de Pizan: Her Life and Works. New York, NY: Persea, 1990. Print.
Jeanettegome72 ( talk) 02:36, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
{{cite journal |last=Laennec |first=Christine Moneera |title=Unladylike Polemics: Christine De Pizan's Strategies of Attack and Defense |journal=Tulsa Studies in Women's Literature |volume=12 |issue=1 |year=1993 |pages=47–59 |url=http://www.jstor.org/stable/463756 |accessdate=2017-05-02 |jstor=463756 |doi=10.2307/463756 |publisher=University of Tulsa}}
will render as:
{{cite journal |first=S. H. |last=Rigby |title=The Wife of Bath, Christine de Pizan, and the Medieval Case for Women on JSTOR |journal=The Chaucer Review |url=http://www.jstor.org/stable/25096124 |accessdate=2017-05-02 |jstor=25096124 |volume=35 |issue=2 |year=2000 |pages=133–165 |publisher=Penn State University Press}}
will render as:
{{cite book |last=Willard |first=Charity Cannon |title=Christine de Pizan: Her Life and Works |location=New York, NY |publisher=Persea Books |year=1990 |oclc=31183567 |isbn=9780892550845}}
will render as:
This (generally excellent) article contains one significant error that I noticed: it repeatedly refers to Christine de Pizan as "Pizan." This would of course be correct with a modern author, for example Michel Foucault would shorten to "Foucault" rather than "Michel." However, the convention among scholars of the Middle Ages is to refer to medieval authors by their given names only, since "Pizan" expresses nothing other than a place (Pizanno), and creates confusion with sentences of the type "Pizanno is a beautiful place." One can see an example of this usage on the Wikipedia page for another famous medieval author, Chrétien de Troyes, who is correctly named as "Chrétien": /info/en/?search=Chr%C3%A9tien_de_Troyes
If editors of this page do not object, I will make the change. My apologies if it is not the usual protocol to make a note like this first, I have never edited Wikipedia before. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ReinardusVulpes ( talk • contribs) 20:08, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
Last sentence "...the political events reverenced in the illuminations..." Either would have some meaning!
Incidentally, this
Google preview text is described as the 2010 book (ISBN 0-271-04557-4), but the copy part-reproduced appears to be a 2008 version (ISBN 0-271-03397-6), which has an Introduction, but no Preface - apparently a different text.
Davidships (
talk) 01:11, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
Under the Works heading, the second paragraph states, "Christine claimed that Meun's views were misogynistic, vulgar, immoral, and slanderous to women. The exchange between the two authors involved them sending each other their treatises, defending their respective views. At the height of the exchange Christine published Querelle du Roman de la Rose (Letters on the Debate of the Rose)."
According to Jean de Meun's Wikipedia page, he lived from 1240-1305. Christine de Pizan lived from 1364-1430, according to her page. Unless I'm missing something, I'm not sure how they would have exchanged views with one another since Christine was born 60 years after Jean's death. 205.236.56.99 ( talk) 19:47, 4 February 2020 (UTC) Extonare
This edit was reverted - first because ostensibly it did not include sources. But when sources were added, it suddenly became a "political interpretation" that does not belong in the intro section. It seems that the fact that de Pizan has become a pretty major topic in academia these past few decades AS the first feminist writer is relevant, certainly more so than a couple of names of patrons, which somehow passed muster. The topic is spread throughout the article, and is in the sources (basically all articles from the past two decades about de Pizan refer to her this way) but is not addressed directly. It probably should have its own section, or at least a paragraph... in which case it would also belong in the summary. But in no case should the information be eliminated. KikuTheKat ( talk) 13:11, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
Born in 1364, lived into the 1430s, yet she died at age 15-16. Doesn't quite agree, does it? 2A02:AA1:162A:DA5C:9D79:EFB1:8373:7640 ( talk) 19:59, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Christine de Pizan article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This
level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jeanettegome72.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 17:38, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
is considered by scholars to be the first women writer
This is obviously wrong as written: Sappho predated her by something like 2000 years. Would the original author care to expand on what he meant? -- Paul Drye
Yep, entirely incorrect. She might be the first European woman to have made a living from writing, though even that is contested. We're not sure what Marie de France did for a living. --MichaelTinkler
Very true. What was meant by the statement, was that de Pizan was the first women author of note, in Europe to make a living from being a writer. This came directly from my humanities instructor -- although I myself find such statements hard to believe without rigid substantiation. I agree with the change. -- Maveric149
Sorry - I love the picture; Christine might even have overseen it (she did for some of her books produced in her lifetime), but it's an image from a book owned by a library or museum. They hold copyright - and tend to protect them jealously. --MichaelTinkler
What's with all the references to her via her first name? Is this conventional? Loren
Convention had not changed by Christine's day, I am certain of this. I'm not certain of the timeline for that change either, but I'd guess closer to the age of print (though even then, spellings and appellations weren't always rigid). It is conventional to refer to anyone -- male or female -- with an "of somewhere" by primary name. So in the same way we discuss Mary Queen of Scots as "Mary" so we discuss Christine de Pizan or Jean de Meun as "Christine" or "Jean." Mys46637 18:45, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
She also wrote about the victory of Joan of Arc at the Battle of Agincourt
If this statement is correct, it should be clarified that this is Alternative history. (Joan was 3 at the time, and the French lost.) -- Townmouse 08:38, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Some parts of this article read more like a persuasive paper than an encyclopedic article. -- Fang Aili 17:22, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
The text overall isn't that bad. The references are cited in that ugly parenthetical way, but there's nothing too POV in there. Some uncited weasel phrasing ("Overall, de Pizan and her writings have been celebrated and embraced" By whom? We don't even have a "Influence" section.) crops up now and again, but it's nothing a rigorous copy-edit couldn't fix. The headings, though, are terrible. "Establishing her literary reputation" "Making her mark" "an authoritative rhetorician". The whole article seems like it would do well to receive a division into "Life" and "Work", without all the high-flown pop biographical phrasing. Geuiwogbil 18:56, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Wait, I reread it. Indeed, it seems too much like a essaye with aims at persuasion. Something more serious need be done. Geuiwogbil 18:58, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
I know that her name is a transliteration of French, but is it correctly Pisan or Pizan? The article is inconsistant as to which is preferred or correct.
Christine's name comes from her father's city of origin: Pizzano. So technically, Pizan is probably more accurate, but Pisan is a French phonetic spelling of the proper sound to her name (but it promotes the misunderstanding that she was from Pisa). Understandably French speakers tend to use Pisan, Italian speakers Pizan. I'm not sure if there is a "correct" spelling that Anglophones should adopt; consistency is the best best.
Mys46637 18:40, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Her name: the city of origin, as noted above, is Pizzano. Until a decade or two ago, it was often given as "Pisan" in French AND English, but that's both incorrect and conceivably misleading: as noted above, some readers and students assumed that she or her father came from Pisa. More important, she herself should not be referred to as "Pizan" or "de Pizan," as in the article; that is the equivalent of referring to Guillaume d'Orange/William of Orange as "Orange." The poet in question is either "Christine" or "Christine de Pizan," but definitely not Pizan. I edited the article to correct that.
Her work: there is a contradiction in the article, and I have left it. In the 2nd par., we read that she completed 41 pieces, but later we read that she wrote over 300 ballades as well as other poems. How to reconcile these statements? Njl2 ( talk) 14:50, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
I could have sworn Etienne du Castel was a castle not a man's name. Are the writer's of this page sure that was his name?
Heri Larien 01:24, 22 December 2006 (UTC)Heri Larien
Been poking around in researching her life and it seems her date of birth is somewhat contested (even on the French Wikipedia it's given as both 1363 and 1364, in different places; there was at least one source that I found that suggested 1365 instead), as is her date of death (as nothing was heard from her after her work on Joan of Arc, published in July of 1429). Not sure if anyone has any more concrete sources for any of these topics? I'll keep looking and see if I can amend the article as necessary.
Regardless, the math doesn't add up--if she was born in 1363 and married at age fifteen to Etienne, then she would be married in 1378, not 1380 (since Charles died late 1380, I suppose they would have married earlier in the year... Even if she was born late in 1363 it would still mean 1378 or early 1379 as a wedding year if she was fifteen at the time of marriage). Similarly if she was born in 1364, her marriage would have been in 1379 instead (as French Wikipedia suggests)... Although again I've got no concrete sources on that other than consensus that she was married at fifteen, although Willard suggests they married in 1980. If she was widowed at the age of 24 in 1390, then that would mean she was born in 1366; some sources argue her husband died in 1389 instead (meaning a birthdate of 1365, should she have been widowed at age 24), although French Wikipedia concurs with the date of 1390.
I don't suppose anyone could shed some light on this matter? Or would it be something that should be smoothed out in the article (eg: remove vague age references if concrete dates are available that conflict with said age references)? Tehae ( talk) 19:54, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Hi all,
A possibly useful resource - there was a five-year academic project to produce a digital edition of the Queen's Manuscript (BL Harley MS. 4431), a comprehensive collected work prepared for Isabeau of Bavaria under de Pizan's supervision, c. 1414. (The "presents her book" illustration here is taken from the MS). As well as many smaller works, it includes a full (?) copy of Le livre de la cité des dames.
I'm currently working with the BL and the AHRC (the funders of the project), hence why I'm leaving this note here rather than just adding the links; any objection to my adding one or both to the external links? Andrew Gray ( talk) 13:36, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
In trying to understand more about Christine's life and works, I have come across the following resources. Would these be a good place to get information about her?
Laennec, Christine Moneera. “Unladylike Polemics: Christine De Pizan's Strategies of Attack and Defense.” Tulsa Studies in Women's Literature, vol. 12, no. 1, 1993, pp. 47–59., www.jstor.org/stable/463756.
Rigby, S. H. “The Wife of Bath, Christine De Pizan, and the Medieval Case for Women.” The Chaucer Review, vol. 35, no. 2, 2000, pp. 133–165., www.jstor.org/stable/25096124.
Willard, Charity Cannon. Christine de Pizan: Her Life and Works. New York, NY: Persea, 1990. Print.
Jeanettegome72 ( talk) 02:36, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
{{cite journal |last=Laennec |first=Christine Moneera |title=Unladylike Polemics: Christine De Pizan's Strategies of Attack and Defense |journal=Tulsa Studies in Women's Literature |volume=12 |issue=1 |year=1993 |pages=47–59 |url=http://www.jstor.org/stable/463756 |accessdate=2017-05-02 |jstor=463756 |doi=10.2307/463756 |publisher=University of Tulsa}}
will render as:
{{cite journal |first=S. H. |last=Rigby |title=The Wife of Bath, Christine de Pizan, and the Medieval Case for Women on JSTOR |journal=The Chaucer Review |url=http://www.jstor.org/stable/25096124 |accessdate=2017-05-02 |jstor=25096124 |volume=35 |issue=2 |year=2000 |pages=133–165 |publisher=Penn State University Press}}
will render as:
{{cite book |last=Willard |first=Charity Cannon |title=Christine de Pizan: Her Life and Works |location=New York, NY |publisher=Persea Books |year=1990 |oclc=31183567 |isbn=9780892550845}}
will render as:
This (generally excellent) article contains one significant error that I noticed: it repeatedly refers to Christine de Pizan as "Pizan." This would of course be correct with a modern author, for example Michel Foucault would shorten to "Foucault" rather than "Michel." However, the convention among scholars of the Middle Ages is to refer to medieval authors by their given names only, since "Pizan" expresses nothing other than a place (Pizanno), and creates confusion with sentences of the type "Pizanno is a beautiful place." One can see an example of this usage on the Wikipedia page for another famous medieval author, Chrétien de Troyes, who is correctly named as "Chrétien": /info/en/?search=Chr%C3%A9tien_de_Troyes
If editors of this page do not object, I will make the change. My apologies if it is not the usual protocol to make a note like this first, I have never edited Wikipedia before. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ReinardusVulpes ( talk • contribs) 20:08, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
Last sentence "...the political events reverenced in the illuminations..." Either would have some meaning!
Incidentally, this
Google preview text is described as the 2010 book (ISBN 0-271-04557-4), but the copy part-reproduced appears to be a 2008 version (ISBN 0-271-03397-6), which has an Introduction, but no Preface - apparently a different text.
Davidships (
talk) 01:11, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
Under the Works heading, the second paragraph states, "Christine claimed that Meun's views were misogynistic, vulgar, immoral, and slanderous to women. The exchange between the two authors involved them sending each other their treatises, defending their respective views. At the height of the exchange Christine published Querelle du Roman de la Rose (Letters on the Debate of the Rose)."
According to Jean de Meun's Wikipedia page, he lived from 1240-1305. Christine de Pizan lived from 1364-1430, according to her page. Unless I'm missing something, I'm not sure how they would have exchanged views with one another since Christine was born 60 years after Jean's death. 205.236.56.99 ( talk) 19:47, 4 February 2020 (UTC) Extonare
This edit was reverted - first because ostensibly it did not include sources. But when sources were added, it suddenly became a "political interpretation" that does not belong in the intro section. It seems that the fact that de Pizan has become a pretty major topic in academia these past few decades AS the first feminist writer is relevant, certainly more so than a couple of names of patrons, which somehow passed muster. The topic is spread throughout the article, and is in the sources (basically all articles from the past two decades about de Pizan refer to her this way) but is not addressed directly. It probably should have its own section, or at least a paragraph... in which case it would also belong in the summary. But in no case should the information be eliminated. KikuTheKat ( talk) 13:11, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
Born in 1364, lived into the 1430s, yet she died at age 15-16. Doesn't quite agree, does it? 2A02:AA1:162A:DA5C:9D79:EFB1:8373:7640 ( talk) 19:59, 22 September 2022 (UTC)