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The contents of the Union of Christendom page were merged into Catholic Church and ecumenism on 16 August 2019. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
This section, moved from the Roman Catholic Church article, really needs room to breathe. Sections to be added:
I have replaced the picture of the Pope and Patriarch with the most recent one from the papal visit to the Ecumenical Patriarchate. In the previous picture, it was not Bertholomew, as far as i can see. Hectorian 20:34, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
The Catholic Church does not use the term Catholic to describe other churches. It recognizes apostolic succession or doesnt. Whether a church is 'catholic' or not is an Anglican preoccupation based on the Anglo-Catholic/evangelical controversies. As the sentence describes a judgment of the Catholic Church, it is inaccurate and needs to be removed. 129.74.228.121 16:34, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Chapter IV.-Beware of These Heretics.
I give you these instructions, beloved, assured that ye also hold the same opinions [as I do]. But I guard you beforehand from those beasts in the shape of men, whom you must not only not receive, but, if it be possible, not even meet with; only you must pray to God for them, if by any means they may be brought to repentance, which, however, will be very difficult. Yet Jesus Christ, who is our true life, has the power of [effecting] this. But if these things were done by our Lord only in appearance, then am I also only in appearance bound. And why have I also surrendered myself to death, to fire, to the sword, to the wild beasts? But, [in fact, ] he who is near to the sword is near to God; he that is among the wild beasts is in company with God; provided only he be so m the name of Jesus Christ. I undergo all these things that I may suffer together with Him,29 He who became a perfect man inwardly strengthening me.
I've just read this text of Inatious, and could not conciliate it with the catholic ecumenism. Could any catholic friend give some insight? Thanks. []'s —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mauro do Carmo ( talk • contribs) 02:12, 3 March 2007 (UTC).
As the text mentions, I suspect that the present regime at the Vatican is uncomfortable about Pope Paul VI's description of the Anglican Church. In addition I'm aware that of late high ranking elements in the RC Church have declared that the Anglican church, along with other Protestant denominations, is not a church at all but a mere "ecclesial community". But I am not sure how official this line is, not where it came from. I have a feeling that it might be a statement of the (hard line) former Cardinal Ratzinger. Can anyone help on this? Millbanks 07:02, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Today, it is confirmed, Protestants belong to ecclesial bodies, not churches. The Anglican ecclesial bodies are not churches in the eyes of the Catholic Church as they do not have valid orders. Perhaps there may have been a re-visit of the question of Anglican order if they had not rushed to ordain woman, approve abortion and bless same-sex marriages. 129.74.165.187 23:39, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
There has been a lot of news recently about the meeting between the orthodox and the Catholic in Italy. I read one article that said the pope called it a great step forward. There seems to be some issue about the use of the word Protos for the Pope. There is another issue about the Russian delegation walking out, not because of an arguement with the Vatican but because of an internal arguement among the orthodox. The article said something about the Church of Estonia. The Pope wants to call an extra ordinary council of all cardinals to look over the agreements reached that will be held on Nov. 23. At any rate, this all seem like a big deal, it is all over the news and it seems to me that someone should get some facts and put something about it here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.127.251.137 ( talk) 06:23, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
I got some news that the Patriarch Catholicos of Armenia visited Rome and there were reports of "great progress" on issues that concern the reunion of the Churches. I do not know how this affects the Armenian Catholic Church but seeing as how the Armenian Apostolic Church and the Armenian Catholic Church were never the same Church, they are not in schism with each other and everything should be ok, except for the Armenian See of Cilicia, which formed from break away bishops who renounced the decision by their Church leadership to rejoin Rome and establish the Armenian Catholic Church. This See of Cilicia is in communion with the Armenian Apostolic Church but there are tentions. I can not predict how this all is effected of course.
At any rate, big meeting between the Pope and the Catholicos. Reports of "great progress" and something about a preposition in a Christological statement that I don't understand very well. I got the info from the Vatican Information Service. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.47.45.197 ( talk) 13:05, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone feel this article is complete enough or even close to properly cited to merit the new B class? -- Secisek ( talk) 07:52, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
Some have suggested that the very tolerant policy adopted towards ecumenism partly explains the large number of people in the list of former Roman Catholics. One study estimates that 10.1% of people in the United States describe themselves as former Catholics in some sense. Although a small majority converted to another religion a substantial minority of them are counted as currently unaffiliated. ADM ( talk) 20:15, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
User:ADM has removed larges sections of material on Anglicanism from this page without prior discussion. I have returned them. Please discuss this here and not start a revert war.-- EastmeetsWest ( talk) 00:13, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
The removal was not done properly. Discuss it here, first. -- EastmeetsWest ( talk) 00:22, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
I do not agree with the content move for several reasons, first, it is logical here in this article and was written here first. Second, it should not be moved without prior discussion. Third, the move take the material several jumps from the Catholic Church mainpage. Fourth, much of the material was originally written on the Anglican Communion page and it was agreed to move it here. Fifth, to continue to parce articles and rob them of their sections in order to make new articles is unnecessary forking. There are probably other reasons, but it is getting late. Have a good night.-- EastmeetsWest ( talk) 04:35, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
Relevant discussion at | →
Talk:Separated brethren → Talk:Unitatis Redintegratio#Merger proposal → Talk:Unitatis Redintegratio#Separated bretheren revisited |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I propose that the new
Separated brethren article be merged into the appropriate section of this article. It is undoubtedly an important concept, but I am not sure that article will ever be much more than a detailed dictionary article. I think the concept can be fully addressed in
this article (where much of the background and context is anyway) and a redirect created from
Separated brethren.
Novaseminary (
talk) 13:44, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
To say "The Diocese of Utrecht left the Catholic Church after 1703"
,
[1] added in
this edit, is imprecise and potentially misleading. There was no Diocese of Utrecht in 1703. The historic Roman Catholic
Archdiocese of Utrecht (695–1580) was canonically suppressed during the
Protestant Reformation because of persecution. After it was suppressed, its territory became part of a
missionary administrative structure in the
Low Countries, the
Vicariate Apostolic of Batavia, erected by
Pope Clement VIII in 1592. The missionary administrative structure was canonically suppressed as part of the
reestablishment of the episcopal hierarchy in the Netherlands by the Roman Catholic Church in 1853 by
Pope Pius IX and the current
Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Utrecht was erected.
The pope exercised jurisdiction through the vicar apostolic. The group which called itself the "Roman Catholic Church of the Old Episcopal Clergy", an independent sect which was a schism separated from Roman Catholic Church, was instituted during the vicariate and became, in 1723, what was later called the Old Catholic Archdiocese of Utrecht, within the Old Catholic Church of the Netherlands. It may be better to say that, c. 1703, the schism further developed when a faction of insubordinate secular priests rejected the authority of Theodorus de Kock , the appointed administrator of the vicariate apostolic – Kock replaced Petrus Codde, the vicar apostolic who was suspended in 1702 and deposed in 1704.
References
— BoBoMisiu ( talk) 15:41, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
These letters detail very precisely the basis of the ecclesiastical organization decided upon by the Holy Father for the five dioceses which constitute the ecclesiastical province in the Kingdom. Thus the district formerly known as the Dutch Mission, has been divided into dioceses
- The Archidiocese of Utrecht, with the ecclesiastical district of Utrecht, Gueldre, Twenthe, Salland, Drenthe, Groningen, and Friesland. [1]: 61
[...] we decree and will, that for the present, five sees shall be so erected: namely, those of Utrecht, [...] Revolving, however, in our mind the glorious records of the church of Utrecht, and perceiving the favourable conjuncture of circumstances, we cannot, for these and other reasons, but raise or restore that illustrious see, formerly, as it were, overthrown and prostrate, to the degree of the metropolitan or archiepiscopal rank, with which dignity, [...] it was honoured by our predecessor, [...]; and we assign to it the four mentioned suffragan sees, [...] by [...] our apostolic authority we do assign give and confer. To the said archiepiscopal or metropolitan See of Utrecht, [...] the province[s] [...] which formerly constituted the greater portion of the said Dutch Mission. [1]: 63
whatsoever other things may have obtained, whether by the ancient system of the Church of Holland, or in the subsequent condition of the Missions, from the peculiar constitutions, privileges, or especial usages thereof, shall henceforward, in consequence of the present change in circumstances, neither confer any right nor impose any obligation. And, moreover, for the purpose of removing all ambiguity and doubt, we by the power of Apostolical authority, take away from the said peculiar constitutions and privileges of every kind, and from usages, at whatever remote time introduced, and even although flourishing from time immemorial, all power whatsoever of imposing obligations or of conferring rights. [1]: 64
References
— BoBoMisiu ( talk) 21:49, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
I cleaned up a little the documents list. There were some included that did not relate to ecumenism so much as religious freedom or interreligious dialogue, such as Nostra Aetate, Dignitatis Humanae, Quanta Cura, and the Syllabus of Errors. Several were missing. Aside from those that have been elevated to official Catholic Church documents, like the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification, i thought it made more sense to include official dialogue reports and declarations under the relevant topic. e.g., the Balamand Statement moved to the section on relations with the Orthodox. Protoclete ( talk) 15:23, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
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There is a discussion taking place at Talk:Catholic–Lutheran dialogue#Requested move 22 October 2017 that editors of this article might be interested in. All are invited to participate. – Zfish118⋉ talk 13:32, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
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This is the
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Catholic Church and ecumenism article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
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The contents of the Union of Christendom page were merged into Catholic Church and ecumenism on 16 August 2019. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
This section, moved from the Roman Catholic Church article, really needs room to breathe. Sections to be added:
I have replaced the picture of the Pope and Patriarch with the most recent one from the papal visit to the Ecumenical Patriarchate. In the previous picture, it was not Bertholomew, as far as i can see. Hectorian 20:34, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
The Catholic Church does not use the term Catholic to describe other churches. It recognizes apostolic succession or doesnt. Whether a church is 'catholic' or not is an Anglican preoccupation based on the Anglo-Catholic/evangelical controversies. As the sentence describes a judgment of the Catholic Church, it is inaccurate and needs to be removed. 129.74.228.121 16:34, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Chapter IV.-Beware of These Heretics.
I give you these instructions, beloved, assured that ye also hold the same opinions [as I do]. But I guard you beforehand from those beasts in the shape of men, whom you must not only not receive, but, if it be possible, not even meet with; only you must pray to God for them, if by any means they may be brought to repentance, which, however, will be very difficult. Yet Jesus Christ, who is our true life, has the power of [effecting] this. But if these things were done by our Lord only in appearance, then am I also only in appearance bound. And why have I also surrendered myself to death, to fire, to the sword, to the wild beasts? But, [in fact, ] he who is near to the sword is near to God; he that is among the wild beasts is in company with God; provided only he be so m the name of Jesus Christ. I undergo all these things that I may suffer together with Him,29 He who became a perfect man inwardly strengthening me.
I've just read this text of Inatious, and could not conciliate it with the catholic ecumenism. Could any catholic friend give some insight? Thanks. []'s —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mauro do Carmo ( talk • contribs) 02:12, 3 March 2007 (UTC).
As the text mentions, I suspect that the present regime at the Vatican is uncomfortable about Pope Paul VI's description of the Anglican Church. In addition I'm aware that of late high ranking elements in the RC Church have declared that the Anglican church, along with other Protestant denominations, is not a church at all but a mere "ecclesial community". But I am not sure how official this line is, not where it came from. I have a feeling that it might be a statement of the (hard line) former Cardinal Ratzinger. Can anyone help on this? Millbanks 07:02, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Today, it is confirmed, Protestants belong to ecclesial bodies, not churches. The Anglican ecclesial bodies are not churches in the eyes of the Catholic Church as they do not have valid orders. Perhaps there may have been a re-visit of the question of Anglican order if they had not rushed to ordain woman, approve abortion and bless same-sex marriages. 129.74.165.187 23:39, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
There has been a lot of news recently about the meeting between the orthodox and the Catholic in Italy. I read one article that said the pope called it a great step forward. There seems to be some issue about the use of the word Protos for the Pope. There is another issue about the Russian delegation walking out, not because of an arguement with the Vatican but because of an internal arguement among the orthodox. The article said something about the Church of Estonia. The Pope wants to call an extra ordinary council of all cardinals to look over the agreements reached that will be held on Nov. 23. At any rate, this all seem like a big deal, it is all over the news and it seems to me that someone should get some facts and put something about it here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.127.251.137 ( talk) 06:23, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
I got some news that the Patriarch Catholicos of Armenia visited Rome and there were reports of "great progress" on issues that concern the reunion of the Churches. I do not know how this affects the Armenian Catholic Church but seeing as how the Armenian Apostolic Church and the Armenian Catholic Church were never the same Church, they are not in schism with each other and everything should be ok, except for the Armenian See of Cilicia, which formed from break away bishops who renounced the decision by their Church leadership to rejoin Rome and establish the Armenian Catholic Church. This See of Cilicia is in communion with the Armenian Apostolic Church but there are tentions. I can not predict how this all is effected of course.
At any rate, big meeting between the Pope and the Catholicos. Reports of "great progress" and something about a preposition in a Christological statement that I don't understand very well. I got the info from the Vatican Information Service. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.47.45.197 ( talk) 13:05, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone feel this article is complete enough or even close to properly cited to merit the new B class? -- Secisek ( talk) 07:52, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
Some have suggested that the very tolerant policy adopted towards ecumenism partly explains the large number of people in the list of former Roman Catholics. One study estimates that 10.1% of people in the United States describe themselves as former Catholics in some sense. Although a small majority converted to another religion a substantial minority of them are counted as currently unaffiliated. ADM ( talk) 20:15, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
User:ADM has removed larges sections of material on Anglicanism from this page without prior discussion. I have returned them. Please discuss this here and not start a revert war.-- EastmeetsWest ( talk) 00:13, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
The removal was not done properly. Discuss it here, first. -- EastmeetsWest ( talk) 00:22, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
I do not agree with the content move for several reasons, first, it is logical here in this article and was written here first. Second, it should not be moved without prior discussion. Third, the move take the material several jumps from the Catholic Church mainpage. Fourth, much of the material was originally written on the Anglican Communion page and it was agreed to move it here. Fifth, to continue to parce articles and rob them of their sections in order to make new articles is unnecessary forking. There are probably other reasons, but it is getting late. Have a good night.-- EastmeetsWest ( talk) 04:35, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
Relevant discussion at | →
Talk:Separated brethren → Talk:Unitatis Redintegratio#Merger proposal → Talk:Unitatis Redintegratio#Separated bretheren revisited |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I propose that the new
Separated brethren article be merged into the appropriate section of this article. It is undoubtedly an important concept, but I am not sure that article will ever be much more than a detailed dictionary article. I think the concept can be fully addressed in
this article (where much of the background and context is anyway) and a redirect created from
Separated brethren.
Novaseminary (
talk) 13:44, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
To say "The Diocese of Utrecht left the Catholic Church after 1703"
,
[1] added in
this edit, is imprecise and potentially misleading. There was no Diocese of Utrecht in 1703. The historic Roman Catholic
Archdiocese of Utrecht (695–1580) was canonically suppressed during the
Protestant Reformation because of persecution. After it was suppressed, its territory became part of a
missionary administrative structure in the
Low Countries, the
Vicariate Apostolic of Batavia, erected by
Pope Clement VIII in 1592. The missionary administrative structure was canonically suppressed as part of the
reestablishment of the episcopal hierarchy in the Netherlands by the Roman Catholic Church in 1853 by
Pope Pius IX and the current
Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Utrecht was erected.
The pope exercised jurisdiction through the vicar apostolic. The group which called itself the "Roman Catholic Church of the Old Episcopal Clergy", an independent sect which was a schism separated from Roman Catholic Church, was instituted during the vicariate and became, in 1723, what was later called the Old Catholic Archdiocese of Utrecht, within the Old Catholic Church of the Netherlands. It may be better to say that, c. 1703, the schism further developed when a faction of insubordinate secular priests rejected the authority of Theodorus de Kock , the appointed administrator of the vicariate apostolic – Kock replaced Petrus Codde, the vicar apostolic who was suspended in 1702 and deposed in 1704.
References
— BoBoMisiu ( talk) 15:41, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
These letters detail very precisely the basis of the ecclesiastical organization decided upon by the Holy Father for the five dioceses which constitute the ecclesiastical province in the Kingdom. Thus the district formerly known as the Dutch Mission, has been divided into dioceses
- The Archidiocese of Utrecht, with the ecclesiastical district of Utrecht, Gueldre, Twenthe, Salland, Drenthe, Groningen, and Friesland. [1]: 61
[...] we decree and will, that for the present, five sees shall be so erected: namely, those of Utrecht, [...] Revolving, however, in our mind the glorious records of the church of Utrecht, and perceiving the favourable conjuncture of circumstances, we cannot, for these and other reasons, but raise or restore that illustrious see, formerly, as it were, overthrown and prostrate, to the degree of the metropolitan or archiepiscopal rank, with which dignity, [...] it was honoured by our predecessor, [...]; and we assign to it the four mentioned suffragan sees, [...] by [...] our apostolic authority we do assign give and confer. To the said archiepiscopal or metropolitan See of Utrecht, [...] the province[s] [...] which formerly constituted the greater portion of the said Dutch Mission. [1]: 63
whatsoever other things may have obtained, whether by the ancient system of the Church of Holland, or in the subsequent condition of the Missions, from the peculiar constitutions, privileges, or especial usages thereof, shall henceforward, in consequence of the present change in circumstances, neither confer any right nor impose any obligation. And, moreover, for the purpose of removing all ambiguity and doubt, we by the power of Apostolical authority, take away from the said peculiar constitutions and privileges of every kind, and from usages, at whatever remote time introduced, and even although flourishing from time immemorial, all power whatsoever of imposing obligations or of conferring rights. [1]: 64
References
— BoBoMisiu ( talk) 21:49, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
I cleaned up a little the documents list. There were some included that did not relate to ecumenism so much as religious freedom or interreligious dialogue, such as Nostra Aetate, Dignitatis Humanae, Quanta Cura, and the Syllabus of Errors. Several were missing. Aside from those that have been elevated to official Catholic Church documents, like the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification, i thought it made more sense to include official dialogue reports and declarations under the relevant topic. e.g., the Balamand Statement moved to the section on relations with the Orthodox. Protoclete ( talk) 15:23, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
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There is a discussion taking place at Talk:Catholic–Lutheran dialogue#Requested move 22 October 2017 that editors of this article might be interested in. All are invited to participate. – Zfish118⋉ talk 13:32, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 18:24, 7 November 2018 (UTC)