WARNING: ACTIVE COMMUNITY SANCTIONS The article Casualties of the Syrian civil war, along with other pages relating to the Syrian Civil War and ISIL, is designated by the community as a contentious topic. The current restrictions are:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be sanctioned.
|
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
|
I agree with you on the other totals because they were based on figures that were coming from different sources and thus if we combined them that would have been OR due to possibility of overlapping figures. But, the figures in the new day-by-day table all come exclusivly from one source, the activist group SOHR, so they are in essence cited, there is no OR in this case. Your argument on the talk page was that we can't add up various types of casualties, various figures. I agree with that. But, these are not various, they all come from a unified source, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights. If you have a problem with this please initiate a discussion on the talk page, I'm sure other editors of the Syria civil war events will join. EkoGraf ( talk) 11:23, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
I fail to see how additioning day per day death toll is a problem as they are clearly separated and don't cover the same period. Personally, I am for additionning the death toll found in all sources for a given day, at the condition that they clearly refer to different events. Like we do for all the syrian battles pages. Then , we would compare it to the daily number of the rebel source Syrian Observatory and we would keep the more global. -- DanielUmel ( talk) 12:29, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
Jimerb ( talk) 17:01, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
I restored August 2014 UN estimate of Syria death toll (191,000) because it is based on a published study by an independent group taking into account different sources, so it’s one of the most complete and reliable counts we have. On the other hand, I can’t find any UN press release with the 220,000 figure cited by AP on 15 January. Does it even exist? Nykterinos ( talk) 13:13, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
The SOHR numbers regarding civilians killed in the Syrian Civil War contradicts. In the Overall toll of the war, there are 250,000 dead (including 115,000 civilians) [1] but in the chart of the article (which is fed by SOHR reports) the civilians killed reach 74,000 aprox. This means that there are a 40,000 "civilians" killed without a date of death. Or better said their method of "reporting" numbers failed. Even anyone can assume those are indeed rebels killed Mr.User200 ( talk) 13:00, 5 November 2015 (UTC).
References
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/11/report-on-syria-conflict-finds-115-of-population-killed-or-injured Syria’s national wealth, infrastructure and institutions have been “almost obliterated” by the “catastrophic impact” of nearly five years of conflict, a new report has found. Fatalities caused by war, directly and indirectly, amount to 470,000, according to the Syrian Centre for Policy Research (SCPR) – — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.244.77.96 ( talk) 10:41, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
Elsewhere in the article descriptions of SOHR seem reasonable but the following line may be biased:
"The following figures were all compiled by the SOHR which is considered an authoritative source on the matter.["
- KaJunl ( talk) 04:15, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
Changing term "Regime" for Syrian Army forces — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.94.71.201 ( talk) 21:46, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
Some comments about the user EkoGraf's the recent reversion of sourced contents and its edit summary:
1) GCR2P has been updating its article on Syria. The last update of the article was on November 2023.
[1] Even if it is assumed that they GCR2P is not updating the estimate, there is no reason to not include the estimate. (casualties in the war are only increasing as time passes)
Moreover, dont insert an obviously
biased intro into the page like "estimates by pro-opposition activist groups". An intro like that in
the lede, seriously? None of the other war casualties pages have such an intro.
2) EkoGraf also misrepresented the SOHR estimate's number of deaths documented by name as the "lower death toll" and SOHR estimate's overall death toll as the "higher death toll", speculating that SOHR is having a range of death tally.
However, the SOHR article is literally titled " Nearly 614,000 persons killed since the onset of the revolution in March 2011" and states:
"The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights (SOHR) has documented by names the death of 503,064 people since the outbreak of the Syrian Revolution out of an overall death toll of 613,407 people whose death has been verified by SOHR in the past 12 years."
So what EkoGraf inserted was original research
3) Also, EkoGraf described Syrian Network for Human Rights as "pro-opposition" without backing it up with reliable sources. SNHR is widely described as an "independent NGO" by academic and encyclopaedic sources. [2]
Quote from " Routledge Handbook of Sport in the Middle East"
"...investigations conducted by sports publications like ESPN The Magazine and independent non-governmental organisations (NGOs) such as the Syrian Network for Human Rights (SNHR) suggest that the country’s general division was replicated inside the team, ..."
Just because some war monitor is not pro-government, doesnt mean it is pro-opposition. Shadowwarrior8 ( talk) 11:38, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
"According to estimates from the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, more than 600,000 people have been killed since the start of the war." [3]
Shadowwarrior8 ( talk) 15:56, 24 December 2023 (UTC)A monitoring group based in the UK called the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights reported that 600,000 people had been killed by June 2021.
@
Shadowwarrior8: 1. GCR2P has been updating its article on Syria, but it has not been updating its estimate of the death toll. I provided an archived link of the article's May 2021 version (which you removed) which even back then says the same estimate. Just please check the archived link. So saying that the estimate (as you wrote) is as of December 2022 or March 2023, is innacurate and a misrepresentation, since they made the estimate back in May 2021. Further, there is already a mention of the GCR2P estimate in the third paragraph of the lead and mentioning it again in the 1st as well is redundant and undue weight. As a compromise, if you wish, we can mention of the GCR2P estimate in the 1st as well, but it needs to correctly state that the figure is as of May 2021 (as it is), just like we state the UN figure is as of March 2021 (although I still think mentioning a figure twice in the lead is unnecessary and unbalanced). As for the part "estimates by pro-opposition activist groups", that was originally placed by another editor in the lead, not me, and I agreed with it, since the SOHR (whose figures we are using) is described by reliable sources as a pro-opposition group
[3]
[4]
[5]
[6]
[7]
[8]. As per that editor's reasoning, Wikipedia readers need to know if a source is pro-government or pro-opposition (which I agree). As compromise, I would have no objection to leave "war monitors" the general description of the sources in the first sentence of the lead, but when we talk about SOHR specifically, as per reliable sources, it needs to be continued to be described as "pro-opposition".
2. The presentation of SOHR's figures as a lower and higher range has been upheld for over a decade in this article and other Syria-related articles and used in such a manner by a number of editors (not just me) and no other editor has had a problem with that or called it original research until now. As a compromise, we can use the same method agreed by editors at the Russian-Ukrainian war article. Presenting the higher figure, while mentioning the lower figure in brackets beside it as the one confirmed by names. If you wish to discuss further rewording, I am open to it.
3. The description of the
Syrian Network for Human Rights as "pro-opposition" was also added by the other editor (not me) years ago and I agreed with that based on the same reasoning as before. However, despite the SNHR showing pro-opposition language, unlike SOHR, reliable sources have not described it as such. So, if you wish, we can remove the "pro-opposition" label.
Pinging some of the other editors involved in Syrian-war related articles @
Ecrusized:@
Cinderella157:@
RopeTricks:@
Nihlus1:@
Illegitimate Barrister:@
Cengo-1992:@
Applodion: to way in on the issue.
EkoGraf (
talk) 15:53, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
"As a compromise, if you wish, we can mention of the GCR2P estimate in the 1st as well, but it needs to correctly state that the figure is as of May 2021.. As compromise, I would have no objection to leave "war monitors" the general description of the sources in the first sentence of the lead, but when we talk about SOHR specifically, as per reliable sources, it needs to be continued to be described as "pro-opposition"."
"If you wish to discuss further rewording, I am open to it."
"So, if you wish, we can remove the "pro-opposition" label."
@ Cinderella157: Seems to be, thanks! EkoGraf ( talk) 13:03, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
References
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: location (
link)
WARNING: ACTIVE COMMUNITY SANCTIONS The article Casualties of the Syrian civil war, along with other pages relating to the Syrian Civil War and ISIL, is designated by the community as a contentious topic. The current restrictions are:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be sanctioned.
|
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
|
I agree with you on the other totals because they were based on figures that were coming from different sources and thus if we combined them that would have been OR due to possibility of overlapping figures. But, the figures in the new day-by-day table all come exclusivly from one source, the activist group SOHR, so they are in essence cited, there is no OR in this case. Your argument on the talk page was that we can't add up various types of casualties, various figures. I agree with that. But, these are not various, they all come from a unified source, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights. If you have a problem with this please initiate a discussion on the talk page, I'm sure other editors of the Syria civil war events will join. EkoGraf ( talk) 11:23, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
I fail to see how additioning day per day death toll is a problem as they are clearly separated and don't cover the same period. Personally, I am for additionning the death toll found in all sources for a given day, at the condition that they clearly refer to different events. Like we do for all the syrian battles pages. Then , we would compare it to the daily number of the rebel source Syrian Observatory and we would keep the more global. -- DanielUmel ( talk) 12:29, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
Jimerb ( talk) 17:01, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
I restored August 2014 UN estimate of Syria death toll (191,000) because it is based on a published study by an independent group taking into account different sources, so it’s one of the most complete and reliable counts we have. On the other hand, I can’t find any UN press release with the 220,000 figure cited by AP on 15 January. Does it even exist? Nykterinos ( talk) 13:13, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
The SOHR numbers regarding civilians killed in the Syrian Civil War contradicts. In the Overall toll of the war, there are 250,000 dead (including 115,000 civilians) [1] but in the chart of the article (which is fed by SOHR reports) the civilians killed reach 74,000 aprox. This means that there are a 40,000 "civilians" killed without a date of death. Or better said their method of "reporting" numbers failed. Even anyone can assume those are indeed rebels killed Mr.User200 ( talk) 13:00, 5 November 2015 (UTC).
References
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/11/report-on-syria-conflict-finds-115-of-population-killed-or-injured Syria’s national wealth, infrastructure and institutions have been “almost obliterated” by the “catastrophic impact” of nearly five years of conflict, a new report has found. Fatalities caused by war, directly and indirectly, amount to 470,000, according to the Syrian Centre for Policy Research (SCPR) – — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.244.77.96 ( talk) 10:41, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
Elsewhere in the article descriptions of SOHR seem reasonable but the following line may be biased:
"The following figures were all compiled by the SOHR which is considered an authoritative source on the matter.["
- KaJunl ( talk) 04:15, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
Changing term "Regime" for Syrian Army forces — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.94.71.201 ( talk) 21:46, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
Some comments about the user EkoGraf's the recent reversion of sourced contents and its edit summary:
1) GCR2P has been updating its article on Syria. The last update of the article was on November 2023.
[1] Even if it is assumed that they GCR2P is not updating the estimate, there is no reason to not include the estimate. (casualties in the war are only increasing as time passes)
Moreover, dont insert an obviously
biased intro into the page like "estimates by pro-opposition activist groups". An intro like that in
the lede, seriously? None of the other war casualties pages have such an intro.
2) EkoGraf also misrepresented the SOHR estimate's number of deaths documented by name as the "lower death toll" and SOHR estimate's overall death toll as the "higher death toll", speculating that SOHR is having a range of death tally.
However, the SOHR article is literally titled " Nearly 614,000 persons killed since the onset of the revolution in March 2011" and states:
"The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights (SOHR) has documented by names the death of 503,064 people since the outbreak of the Syrian Revolution out of an overall death toll of 613,407 people whose death has been verified by SOHR in the past 12 years."
So what EkoGraf inserted was original research
3) Also, EkoGraf described Syrian Network for Human Rights as "pro-opposition" without backing it up with reliable sources. SNHR is widely described as an "independent NGO" by academic and encyclopaedic sources. [2]
Quote from " Routledge Handbook of Sport in the Middle East"
"...investigations conducted by sports publications like ESPN The Magazine and independent non-governmental organisations (NGOs) such as the Syrian Network for Human Rights (SNHR) suggest that the country’s general division was replicated inside the team, ..."
Just because some war monitor is not pro-government, doesnt mean it is pro-opposition. Shadowwarrior8 ( talk) 11:38, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
"According to estimates from the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, more than 600,000 people have been killed since the start of the war." [3]
Shadowwarrior8 ( talk) 15:56, 24 December 2023 (UTC)A monitoring group based in the UK called the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights reported that 600,000 people had been killed by June 2021.
@
Shadowwarrior8: 1. GCR2P has been updating its article on Syria, but it has not been updating its estimate of the death toll. I provided an archived link of the article's May 2021 version (which you removed) which even back then says the same estimate. Just please check the archived link. So saying that the estimate (as you wrote) is as of December 2022 or March 2023, is innacurate and a misrepresentation, since they made the estimate back in May 2021. Further, there is already a mention of the GCR2P estimate in the third paragraph of the lead and mentioning it again in the 1st as well is redundant and undue weight. As a compromise, if you wish, we can mention of the GCR2P estimate in the 1st as well, but it needs to correctly state that the figure is as of May 2021 (as it is), just like we state the UN figure is as of March 2021 (although I still think mentioning a figure twice in the lead is unnecessary and unbalanced). As for the part "estimates by pro-opposition activist groups", that was originally placed by another editor in the lead, not me, and I agreed with it, since the SOHR (whose figures we are using) is described by reliable sources as a pro-opposition group
[3]
[4]
[5]
[6]
[7]
[8]. As per that editor's reasoning, Wikipedia readers need to know if a source is pro-government or pro-opposition (which I agree). As compromise, I would have no objection to leave "war monitors" the general description of the sources in the first sentence of the lead, but when we talk about SOHR specifically, as per reliable sources, it needs to be continued to be described as "pro-opposition".
2. The presentation of SOHR's figures as a lower and higher range has been upheld for over a decade in this article and other Syria-related articles and used in such a manner by a number of editors (not just me) and no other editor has had a problem with that or called it original research until now. As a compromise, we can use the same method agreed by editors at the Russian-Ukrainian war article. Presenting the higher figure, while mentioning the lower figure in brackets beside it as the one confirmed by names. If you wish to discuss further rewording, I am open to it.
3. The description of the
Syrian Network for Human Rights as "pro-opposition" was also added by the other editor (not me) years ago and I agreed with that based on the same reasoning as before. However, despite the SNHR showing pro-opposition language, unlike SOHR, reliable sources have not described it as such. So, if you wish, we can remove the "pro-opposition" label.
Pinging some of the other editors involved in Syrian-war related articles @
Ecrusized:@
Cinderella157:@
RopeTricks:@
Nihlus1:@
Illegitimate Barrister:@
Cengo-1992:@
Applodion: to way in on the issue.
EkoGraf (
talk) 15:53, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
"As a compromise, if you wish, we can mention of the GCR2P estimate in the 1st as well, but it needs to correctly state that the figure is as of May 2021.. As compromise, I would have no objection to leave "war monitors" the general description of the sources in the first sentence of the lead, but when we talk about SOHR specifically, as per reliable sources, it needs to be continued to be described as "pro-opposition"."
"If you wish to discuss further rewording, I am open to it."
"So, if you wish, we can remove the "pro-opposition" label."
@ Cinderella157: Seems to be, thanks! EkoGraf ( talk) 13:03, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
References
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: location (
link)