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I re-introduced some material about Freer's previous transgressions with law. It had a valid reference to a WIRED article and it has been reverted for no apparent reason by an anonymous user.
I'll reintroduce the text and if it's reverted again it may be an idea to protect this page so it can only be edited by registered users. Gravy 11:16, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
I am not Carl Freer. I am however privy to information that might not yet be public and i should have included a formal reference. For that i apologize. However, I'm sorry to say that it seems that you have some personal vendetta against Freer judging by how you formulated your reply. Ironically, i am acutely aware of a libel action filed against atleast three different publications in connection with articles published 2005 - 2006. I will include the reference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrblowfeldt ( talk • contribs) 17:21, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
According to this article, Mr Freer's promised donation of 7 million kroner to Nordens Ark was lost in the collapse of Gizmondo. He did later make a smaller donation, but it does not seem enough to be notable, so I am removing the mention of Nordens Ark from this bio. Now that Mrblowfeldt has removed all the information surrounding Mr Freer's alleged criminal past and his links with known criminal Stefan Eriksson, there doesn't appear to be much left. -- Fugu Alienking 01:39, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Any reason why this was reverted without adding supporting references Mrblowfeldt? Your contributions to this page and others read suspiciously like those of someone constructing a false personal history with which to commit fraud, something Mr Freer has been accused of in the past with claims made concerning VXtreme and the Kings Medical Research Trust. -- Fugu Alienking 15:25, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
As referred to in Nordens Ark's annual report of 2005, http://www.nordensark.se the personal donation made by Carl Freer made him the largest ever private donator to the foundation. Freer was furthermore appointed as trustee of Kings Medical Research Trust. http://kingmedicalhistory.googlepages.com/home He did however resign following the slander campaign made against him for the association with Stefan Eriksson, concerned that it might taint the foundation. Tiger Telematics 10K filing of 2005 deals with the VXtreme misunderstanding made by a San Jose journalist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrblowfeldt ( talk • contribs) 00:54, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
I removed this line: You CAN'T structure sentences based on "in part" references. Its a joke...its either true or its not.
In November 2007, Mr. Freer provided his recount of the Gizmondo events, in part confirming many of the peculiar details, including going by the false name Eric Jonsson. [4][5][6] (Note: Veckans Affärer's title "Svindlande Affärer" is ambiguous; it means both dizzying business and swindling business.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Truthmaker1 ( talk • contribs) 17:35, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
To improve them they must be based on truthful accounts not simply place them back into the profile. This point was pulled out of context of the article and refers to an event that was prior to Gizmondo. I have placed it in the "Other Facts" portion and "improved" it to relate to the factual truth.
Additionally, I have removed all references to Stefan Ericcson. They are not revelant to Freer (regardless whether they had a personal relationship or not) and should not appear in this listing. The only other place they should potentially appear is in the Gizmondo listing.
Finally, I removed the Huffington reference. It contains personal contact information to Mr Freer and is not appropriate to be posted here.
Truthwriter1
I removed the name of Ericsson from the bio again as the cite does not even include the mention of ericsson by name and it is not reasonable to assume he should be mentioned. As he is not mentioned in the cite, it is not appropriate for him to be included in the bio. This feels like a glorified attempt to link the 2 people together. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Truthmaker1 ( talk • contribs) 07:48, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
I moved the cite for the DN article down to the Other News. The reading before was confusing and sounded like Freer resigned because of the article. I haven't seen anything that would prove one item was linked to the other. It is not therefore reasonable to assume the publication of the article led to the resignation.
Additionally, what was the result of the allegations? Fugu can you update the post to include a listing of the charges filed as a result of the investigation? If no charges were filed, you should "improve" your listings to include reference that no charges were ultimately filed. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by Truthmaker1 ( talk • contribs) 07:56, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
One last change...I have removed the sentence involving the reporting of a roughly $380M loss for Tiger Telematics. The cite used did not go anywhere. Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Truthmaker1 ( talk • contribs) 08:02, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
I have again removed the copy relating to Stefan Ericcson. It is not applicable to this bio entry. You are reaching here. The fact that the 2 men were involved with the same company is immaterial unless you plan on adding all of the managements names.
I also removed your attempt to tie Freers' resignation to the publication of articles. You have NOT established a revelant premise that defines the reason for putting them there. I could draw the same assumption by saying that Freer resigned after getting a haircut. The 2 events are not revelant to each other. Just as the association of Freers resignation and association with Ericcson or the publication of the articles.
If you have a copy of his resignation letter with a reference to either...produce it and I will accept that, otherwise, stop creating extra work and continually pushing your agenda. Wiki entries should be based on facts, not half-truths...
Truthwriter1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Truthmaker1 ( talk • contribs) 23:41, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
In November 2007, a Swedish newspaper published an interview with Mr. Freer, giving his version of Gizmondo's history and other previously reported events such as an explanation of why he used an alias "Eric Jonsson" while working as a second hand car salesman in the 1990's
I have removed the above comment from the Other Facts section. This is obviously someones idea of a joke...
Fugu, dude you have quite a suspicious nature regarding Freer. You always seem bent on the negative regarding this bio. I've edited out the conjecture in the Other Facts entries. It doesn't matter that 2 journalists didn't see the "proof" that Freer was in the Kings Medical trust. All that matters is the facts. He once was a trustee and now isn't. Simple... --Truthmaker1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Truthmaker1 ( talk • contribs) 15:42, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
DN (news of the day) reported allegations that Freer had a 1988 Swedish fraud-related court conviction involving the prominent business bank Skandinaviska Enskilda Banken I did some research and this event springs from a student loan that Freer signed when he was 17 (he was born in 1970). Apparently his father was unavailable to sign the note and denied signing it when the bank called to question it. The matter was settled out of court. Truthmaker1 ( talk) 06:27, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Image:Carl Freer.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. BetacommandBot 06:09, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
The facts about Mr. Freer and Gizmondo are true and indisputable. It is not slander, because slander requires a statements to be untrue. Mr. Freer even admits himself in the realtid.se interview that he has been convicted twice, once in Sweden and once in Germany. The fact that Gizmondo lost $382.5 million is relevant, even though Mr. Freer was not convicted of any crime. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Novelist ( talk • contribs) 05:18, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Extensive deletions by 75.47.237.75, 66.214.86.36, and Mrblowfeldt deletes nearly everything in this article except for Mr. Freers donations, whether they happened or not discussed below. The article, as-is, is factual, and the events are confirmed in the November 2007 interview by Mr. Freer in person, the same articles referred to as true by the deleting trio. These recent articles further provides recent pictures of Mr. Freer in a New York street setting. This article needs protection from editing by non-registered users.
After Mr. Freer was on the first page of Veckans Affärer, with the headline "Swindling business", he is well known in Sweden. It's like being on the front page of the Wall Street Journal, it's just not forgotten easily. There is plenty of fraud-related anecdotes around Mr. Freer but apparently no more than two convictions. I find it amazing how much disclosure was provided by the Swedish police in regards to their futile fraud investigations of Mr. Freer, conveniently absent. However, the most significant accomplishment beyond his family is how he spent $382.5 million of innocent investor's money. Convicted or not, these people lost their money, and that is a fact of public interest.
It is also interesting how MrBlowfelt claims to not be Carl Freer, whose latest venture apparently is called blowfishworks. Felt or Feldt is a not uncommon latter half of a Swedish surname. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Novelist ( talk • contribs) 21:22, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I just noticed that is IS Mrblowfeldt using the most common Swedish spelling. For not being Mr. Freer, he sure has a remarkable insight into Carl Freer's actions 20 years ago —Preceding unsigned comment added by Novelist ( talk • contribs) 21:32, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Speculation about the identities of Wikipedia editors has no place here, or in the edit summaries. However it appears that there are two very different points of view being pushed here, so I have requested that the page be reviewed for NPOV compliance. Hopefully an editor with no prior knowledge of Mr Freer's business dealings can read through the references provided (including those deleted by Mrblowfeldt and 66.214.86.36's most recent edits) and find a balance. Alternatively, they could reconsider my earlier suggestion of speedy deletion of this promotional bio for a non-notable living person. — Fugu Alienking ( talk) 12:18, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Where is the proof Alienking.com is tied to Carl Freer??? This should be removed immediately.. 22:13, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Looks like the reference was updated recently, probably to remove his name. If noone can find a better one, perhaps an admin should delete that (the page seems to be uneditable by us mere mortals) -- 83.67.23.108 14:29, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
I removed this section, because the reference (Xero Mobile's corporate site) does not support a connection, and after checking for better references, I found only rumours and a denial by Freer himself of any involvement. If reference to Xero is added back in, the references should be to a news article or other reference that supports his involvement, and if the reference is not definitive, the uncertainty of this fact should be noted. Also, the catogorization under company names makes this bio look like a resume, more so when the blowfish works section consisted of a single sentence. In my opinion, Carl Freer is noteworthy only for the rise and fall of Gizmondo, anything else belongs under the Other Facts section, but that of course is open to debate here. -- Fugu Alienking ( talk) 12:11, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
I added the reference. Thanks for pointing that out. - Truthmaker1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Truthmaker1 ( talk • contribs) 15:34, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Fugs.....hey, you just can't remove things because you don't like what they say. And I don't appreciate you removing my cites as well. The Newsweek article is appropriate for this bio since it highlights Freer. I have an original scan of the complete article that I can email to you if you like. Also, enough with the Xero Mobile removals. Freer founded and was involved with the company. So stop removing all the source material from it. I can provide at least another half dozen cites on this topic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Truthmaker1 ( talk • contribs) 18:41, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
As the only reference to his exhonoration is an interview with Freer himself, please refrain from removing the wording "Freer claims" from this claim. If you know of a published reference that is not from Freer himself, then please provide it when removing the word "claims". -- Fugu Alienking ( talk) 21:57, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Warning to fellow editors: A number of dubious claims regarding Freer's history have appeared in Tiger Telematics SEC filings and in newspaper and magazine articles about Carl Freer in the past. Many of them (both positive and negative) have made it into this article where they were subsequently disputed and removed. Please take extra care when checking references, and if there are conflicting reports where one cannot be judged as more authoritative than the other, it is probably best left out of this article. I have just removed the claim about Freer winning Swedish Entrepreneur of the Year in 1997, which originated in a Moneyweek article about him. The 1997 Swedish winner of the well known award is listed on Ernst and Young's website as Claes-Göran Österlund of Hotell Ekoxen. -- Fugu Alienking ( talk) 17:34, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
ATTN: Carl Freer commited no wrongdoing while working at TGTL —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.54.163.168 ( talk) 14:32, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
I am submitting several new updates to this profile as much new information has been published on Freer. I have included valid references for each of the new entries. There are many more to come. -Truthmaker —Preceding unsigned comment added by Truthmaker1 ( talk • contribs) 17:22, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
You can't remove copy I've submitted simply because you don't like what it says.. Truthmaker1 —Preceding comment was added at 11:03, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Where are the "other" journalists?? In prison as well?? We know you are biased AGAINST Freer, so your opinion is pointless. Regardless of the facts, you will ALWAYS believe Freer is a villain (as you have said before). I will NOT allow the integrity of this entry be compromised because you have a personal axe to grind regarding Freer. Truthmaker1 ( talk) 14:00, 6 June 2008 (UTC)Truthmaker1
Is multiply sourced content about Carl Freer's alias and past crimes appropriate for this biography? See the talk above and AfD discussion for previous discussion. Also see recent page history (early June 2008) for content in question.
Fugu Alienking is NOT an objective source for this article. See post on the Truthmaker1 discussion page from Fugu_alienking: He says "I villanize him because he is a villain. I don't like to see a valuable resource such as Wikipedia used to fabricate a squeaky clean resume-like profile in order to convince more investors to give their money to this fraudster. " This is HARDLY the discussion from an objective source. Truthmaker1 ( talk) 00:51, 8 June 2008 (UTC)Truthmaker1
I've posted questions about the "legal problems" section on the BLP noticeboard here. It's my understanding that if statements are well-sourced then they are not BLP violations, but lets let the experts give their feedback. IMO, the section does not violate BLP as no sources have been provided to say that the conviction and fine have been rescinded and the sources are excellent. Renee ( talk) 17:32, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
With regards to Media Power, Mikael Ljungman, and Carl Freer, please note that User:Riverside blue, User:Truthmaker1, and User:Needlepinch appear to be either the same editor, or working in concert. Additionally, all three are single-purpose accounts as they have only contributed to these articles. -- Ckatz chat spy 17:23, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Another addition to this list of single-purpose accounts for whitewashing Carl Freer - User:Pichku has made a number of edits, removing approximately half the article in the process, and changing a few minor details to put a certain false spin on his background. These SPAs seem to pop up whenever Carl Freer moves on to his next round of funding, so I look forward to seeing what scheme he has cooked up next. — Fugu Alienking ( contribs) 15:11, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
Is Freer not British/Swedish, he has two passports as far as I know. Why is he listed as Swedish then? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bjorn I. Clever ( talk • contribs) 03:53, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
The websites for several of Freer's various enterprises have been offline for the past few days, for example Media Power and Blowfishworks. Do we know the reason? Have these enterprises met the fate of Gizmondo Europe? Huon ( talk) 12:34, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
I've reworked the entry for the RICO finding to make it more appropriate. I have also removed the aliases. There is no proof Freer ever used those aliases. If there is a criminal docket with use of them, then they can be added. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bearsfanman ( talk • contribs) 15:07, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
Huon you are inaccurate with your definition as well. I reviewed the order and it accurately reflects the judgment now after Truthmaker edits this morning (apparently). I also saw the deletions on aliases. I agree the information on those aliases are non-material to the bio. The information about them is from secondary knowledge. -- Bearsfanman ( talk) 18:22, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
Huon, you can't just undo changes because you disagree with the findings. The court dismissed the 4 main charges with predijuce, dismissed the state charges without predijuce and left them no room to amend. If you continue to edit this outside of the order, I will complain to an editor and have you locked off the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bearsfanman ( talk • contribs) 20:17, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
Sure...there is more to the judgment than 1 line. The reasoning behind the motion and explanation in the judgment is very clear. The precedents used illustrate the depth of the motion. Simply quoting 1 sentence is like using a single line to describe how a car is built. Its impossible and no matter how carefully constructed could never be descriptive enough to tell the whole story. Its like the line that you omitted from this morning. The one that contains Media Power, Tiger Telematics etc. The release of those entities supports the judges findings. Am sure you can see that as well. -- Bearsfanman ( talk) 23:39, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
While I appreciate the effort, the judgment is related to Freer in more than 1 way. The suit covered his personal dealings, involvement in Tiger Telematics, Media Power and GetFugu. It is a major judgment from a US Federal judge (not a minor offense like the questionable signature issue, which his father and mother denies ever happened. You are using this article to settle a personal score with Freer which is highly inappropriate. -- Truthmaker1 ( talk) 04:03, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
Pls re-read the judgement. Even the sentence included is covered in the judgement.. -- Truthmaker1 ( talk) 18:56, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
Huon, as I have said multiple times, you cannot simply remove content because you are a freer hater. The judgement supports the statements I (and others) have written. Please take your personal feelings elsewhere. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bearsfanman ( talk • contribs) 03:39, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Check the ruling Page 5 &6. The judge is quite clear. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Truthmaker1 ( talk • contribs) 21:52, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
First, the securities issue is addressed on those pages.
Second, this is included as a lawsuit not a pronouncement. It is no different than the RICO post living on this profile as a total and complete lie. If I follow your logic, those who posted that gem should also be prosecuted.
Third, there is no copyright violation. Pls explain why you are making this allegation. -- Truthmaker1 ( talk) 01:25, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Rather than choose one version over the other, I have decided to remove this paragraph from the article for lack of notability, based on the lack of secondary sources, and the fact that the case came to nothing. -- Fugu Alienking ( talk) 15:15, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
There's currently a slow-moving revert war going on involving the interpretation of a recent court ruling regarding Freer (unfortunately written in legalese) and whether Freer's past convictions for petty fraud, which were mentioned to The Times and the LA Times, should be mentioned in the article. Huon ( talk) 08:26, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Article said "The company went bankrupt in February 2006". That statement is wrong as per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insolvency_Act_1986. As you can see, only individuals go Bankrupt under The Insolvency Act 1986. Companies go into Liquidation in the UK, and Gizmondo Europe Ltd was a UK Incorporation. Setomorp ( talk) 04:46, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
Please exercise caution when linking the actions of individuals to negative business performance. If you are going to name individuals as having responsibility for the loss of of substantial amounts of money, and the demise of a company, then your sources need to be impeccable. Naming some individuals, and not others as responsible for negative performance does not seem correct to me. IMHO all or none and be certain that there is a link between the individual and the outcome before your imply one. I don't know anything about the subject of the article however it appears to me that some POV has entered the article. Flat Out let's discuss it 03:29, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
I've transferred the below discussion here from my talk page. Jackmcbarn ( talk) 12:24, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
Dear Jackmcbarn,
Thank you for your communication to me regarding the recent edit to Carl Freer. You have suggested that I have been less than neutral I therefore take this opportunity to say why you are mistaken in this matter.
Back in 2004/5 I actually knew Carl Freer quite well, I was not a business associate I was an employee. I was thinking of reaching out to Mr. Freer so went to Wikipedia to find out what he was currently up to. I was more than surprised to see the lack of balance and bias on the page. The corrections I have done are completely factual, let me take them in order:
1. Gizmondo Europe Limited could not be declared bankrupt as the insolvency of a company in the United Kingdom is governed an Act of Parliament called the Insolvency Act 1986. It defines the steps an insolvent company can take, it also defines the steps an individual can take when they find themselves in an insolvent position. In the UK under the Insolvency Act 1986 Individuals go bankrupt and companies go into liquidation. Therefore for this page to state it went into bankruptcy is wrong.
2. The compulsory liquidation of Gizmondo Europe Limited was declared in the High Courts in London on 2nd February 2006. This is a factual statement which can be sourced from the London Gazette, a publication that covers the insolvency sector in the UK, it can be sourced directly from the High Courts or alternatively from the joint Liquidators who were appointed to oversee the liquidation and they are Begbies Traynor and David Reubens.
3. The edit on Freer and Ericksson, Gizmondo lost hundreds of millions of dollars. This statement is clearly biased as it was added some time ago. Freer and Ericksson had resigned from Gizmondo Europe and Tiger Telematic in October 2004. If it was to be an accurate statement maybe it should read 'under the Board' or 'under the Directors'. This as it stands is an attempt to smear and therefore biased. Whoever put that statement there is suggesting to the reader that Freer and Ericksson created these losses and that is why it should be replaced.
In addition to the points you have raised there are a number of other matters that I would like to raise with you in the hope that you can either advise or provide guidance as I would like to now edit a number of points on the page.
The Wiki pages are broken down into 4 parts, especially on a living biography, there is the named person, the business activities, legal problems and references. I get no sense of the individual Carl Freer. It doesn't tell me if he is married, has children, enjoys hobbies. It has been edited in such a way that he is denounced as a fraudster on the second line. Even for accuracy's sake shouldn't that be under 'legal problems'?
As for his business partner, why are they not all named? Tiger and Gizmondo had a great many Directors but they are not named as his partners, only one is named and that would seem to be biased as there is an overt attempt to build links only with Stefan Ericksson.
Your opinion and viewpoint would be most welcomed and I am happy to dialogue with you on this matter. I also plan to contact Mr. Freer to ask him for his point of view on this matter.
Whatever the wrongs or rights of Mr. Freer I am by no means an apologist for him and I always believe that I have adopted a neutral position supported by facts. Hopefully my comments above assisted you with your understanding of my thinking and editing and you will put the edits back on the page.
Could I kindly request that you review the edits up until last year as it seems to me there is an attempt by some contributors to build the worst possible picture of Mr. Freer and could I ask when those edits were being done did you make your views known to them?
Regards, Onlinefactcheck ( talk) 08:20, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
Dear Jackmcbarn,
I can see from your page that you are busy with other edits. I have left you a message on your talk page explaining my thoughts and the facts to support my edits. I am confident that you will agree with me that they are balanced and not biased. I have put the edits back up as I feel I have answered your concerns. I would be most grateful for your commentary on the other matters I raised.
Regards, Onlinefactcheck ( talk) 08:16, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
Sorry I don't think you have compromised. How this sentence reads now is incorrect and seems to focus only on one or two of the Directors, who both resigned in October 2005 before the company went into liquidation in Feb 2006. I feel the sentence should read: Under the control of the Directors, Gizmondo lost tens of millions of pounds before going into compulsory liquidation in February 2006. Onlinefactcheck ( talk) 10:28, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
Open the link below and you will see all the company Directors of Gizmondo Europe Ltd. http://companycheck.co.uk/company/04620348/GIZMONDO-EUROPE-LIMITED/directors-shareholders#people Onlinefactcheck ( talk) 15:26, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
Sorry I have to disagree with you. I will go over the passage to clarify.. "Under Freer and Eriksson" should read "Under the control of the Directors." In 2004 there were a total of 5 Directors so singling out only two of them is incorrect. "Gizmondo lost hundreds of millions of dollars: in 2004" As you know, Gizmondo was a UK registered company, so all of its accounts are in British pounds and not US dollars. Gizmondo did not lose hundreds of million of dollars or pounds in 2004, it reports that in the year ending December 2004 Gizmondo lost £49 million pounds, so should read "Gizmondo lost tens of millions of pounds in 2004" I hope this clarifies everything for you. Onlinefactcheck ( talk) 09:16, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
I have changed the word "dollars" to "pounds". As you know Gizmondo was a UK registered company and has only ever dealt in pounds, so you shouldn't have a problem with this change. Onlinefactcheck ( talk) 14:19, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
You say.. "but you should convert all of the usages to be pounds if you want to do that" What else needs to be change ? Onlinefactcheck ( talk) 15:33, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
I thank you, Jackmcbarn, for moderating here. I am the user who added much of the content that has been altered and reverted. All of the content is meticulously sourced; the sources are all well-regarded secondary sources found all over Wikipedia on good articles; they are available online for anyone to use to check the facts in the Wikipedia article. Most of the edits being proposed by this new editor do not conform to the sources cited. I would add that some of the new edits have as their rationale that, in the couple of months intervening between Freer's departure and filing with the court, the company lost all, or even a substantial portion, of the money it lost overall. In fact, it lost most of that money before Freer's departure, while he was still in his leadership position, as the sources made clear. I am dreadfully suspicious of a newly-registered editor with a stated personal bias whose only edits are to Freer's article and to this talk page. As you can see in the history of Freer's pages and the pages of Freer's associates, there are a noticeable number of throwaway accounts and single-use anonymous IPs making edits to remove material. Thank you again. Universaladdress ( talk) 04:54, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
Come back from Christmas break and see that 2 of the 3 articles I nominated for deletion have been deleted. The 3rd that was not deleted, this article, was recommended for deletion and although there were not any policy reasons left by those voting to keep the article, it appears to have been kept. I also see that the discussion was closed early which is puzzling. Anyways, I did not realize this page was so contentious until reading the talk history here. Doesn’t appear that anyone wants to do anything to improve the biography, so I am taking the liberty to clean this up. This article is a major BLP violation as it contains original research and seems to slant everything negative towards this guy which is not neutral. There is also another article related to a member of the former company Stefan Eriksson which will need cleaned up as well. The sources in this article are poor at best with the exception of the LA Time and The Sunday Times. It talks about a failed gaming device and how it was the worse seller of all time, yet there is an article for the game where this information she be listed. I would advise anyone coming to edit this article take a look at WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE. -- JakenBox ( talk) 18:30, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
Except Wikipedia is governed by consensus and guidelines that are established based on consensus. Please do not parse words by stating the article was “kept” 2 times before. The 1st time it was kept by default as there was no consensus reached. The 2nd time it was closed early after the discussion was extended and a few half-hearted keep votes were left without giving any policy or guideline reason to keep it. As such, I asked that the discussion be re-opened for further discussion. In the meantime, I would again suggest that you do not add unsourced information into the article or information that is not in the source provided as this is a violation of guidelines for BLP articles. If you have an issue with the guidelines for BLP articles, please discuss it at the BLP noticeboard. I previously notified you of this, but you seem to want to take a different route. Please refer to the noticeboard, the edit comments of the article, and your own talk page as I am trying to work this out with you, but it seems form the edit history of this article that you are determined to violate BLP guidelines in order to create an attack page for this guy. While you are at it, maybe take a look at the articles for Stefan Eriksson, Tiger Telematics, and Gizmundo as well. This looks like an orchestrated play to discredit these companies and former directors by creating Wikipedia pages as attack pages. -- JakenBox ( talk) 16:29, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
There appears to be one editor, UA, that came back after I spent considerable time doing a fix up job here, as I have elsewhere. I'm starting this section as a forum for others to specifically communicate what should be on this page. DavidWestT ( talk) 23:10, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
The Forbes List lists all billionaires. In 2005, the year which was claimed in some versions of this page that Carl Freer was number 698, the total number was 691, which you can still see at the link given even if you cannot see the names. It is somewhat convenient that the list appears to be broken, as it misleads the reader into thinking the 691 figure is part of the brokenness. It isn't, here is another page making it clear that the list really only went up to 691: http://www.forbes.com/2005/03/09/bill05land.html Fugu Alienking ( talk) 16:18, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
You don't even need synthesis. I have a 2005 Forbes edition. It's now scanned. I am looking for any method to submit it here. I can't simply "copy and paste" to the talk page, otherwise we'd all have it in front of us by now. DavidWestT ( talk) 05:27, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
The assembly of the data is what's protected since data isn't protected by US copyright law. It is a printscreen of the online mag.
The data shows:
[page 30]
Forbes richest people
Marion Sandler
Edward Roski Jr
Joaquim Neto
Ahmet Zorlu
Yeoh Tiong Lay & Family
Jesse Robinson
Nelson Peltz
Richard Peery
Robert Naify
Carl Freer
Kenneth Langone
All show a "tied" rank of #698.
Citizenship column shows, respectively:
United States
United States
Brazil
Turkey
Malaysia
United States
United States
United States
United States
Sweden
United States
Net Worth ($ BIL)
All show "1.1"
Residence column, respectively:
United States
United States
Brazil
Turkey
Malaysia
United States
United States
United States
United States
United States
United States
Age column shows, again respectively:
75
67
40
61
76
82
63
65
84
35
70
DavidWestT ( talk) 18:50, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
References
Interesting. 2006 isn't relevant. Is there a way to get you a copy of the scan I have then? DavidWestT ( talk) 00:00, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
Even more interesting. I read off the order I have in the scan from top to bottom. I'll cross-check the ages with 2006. 67.198.78.84 ( talk) 18:54, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
Some of the information that has been entered into the Legal issues section seems to be from interim decisions in an ongoing case, which are covered by the following disclaimer in the court records: California Rules of Court, rule 8.1115(a), prohibits courts and parties from citing or relying on opinions not certified for publication or ordered published, except as specified by rule 8.1115(b). This opinion has not been certified for publication or ordered published for purposes of rule 8.1115.. There are more recent decisions in the same case which partially contradict what is currently stated in this section, but I do not think it is appropriate to make statements on Wikipedia while the case is ongoing, so have been removing the contradicted statements and replacing them with a statement that the case was filed and is ongoing. However, I do not wish to get into an edit war, and request a third party to decide what is an appropriate course of action here, as DavidWestT seems determined to keep the record reading a specific way. Fugu Alienking 02:54, 28 March 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fugu Alienking ( talk • contribs)
As Freer has developed a history of exaggerated claims, and money pledged and widely advertised, but never followed through (see Gizmondo's lawsuits with MTV, Jordan racing team and Ogilvy and claims related to Norden's Ark and King's Medical Trust for earlier examples), I think it is important to balance this press release about a donation to Georgia Tech over a 5 year period with the information that the company ceased to exist long before that period was over, and that Georgia Tech no longer lists any information about links to Media Power on their website. I previously added the following passage, but it was quickly reverted by the current defender of Freer's online reputation.
As there appears to be controversy over this paragraph, I'd like to get some comments here on how it can be improved before re-adding it. — Fugu Alienking ( contribs) 16:19, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
References
I hope this isn't taken as unnecessarily jovial, because I don't mean it that way, but I don't want to step on a landmine here. Can someone give me a short, neutral summary of why this page has been sent up for deletion twice and sent back? ComicsAreJustAllRight ( talk) 07:09, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute. |
Fugu Alienking, your edits are in clear cut violation of WP:BLP, therefore, I am reverting them completely.
You appear to be single purpose account. I checked your editing history on wikipedia [2] and since 2007 you have made negative BLP edits on Carl Freer article maybe with very few positive edits that made article neutral. You have made around 700 edits on wikipedia and out of which 162 are focused on Mikael Ljungman (also negative apparently, I am not of any opinion on that subject anyway as I am not well informed about Ljungman) and all other edits are focused on Carl Freer or closely related articles with minor or no other edits to other topics. Therefore, before giving my comments on the content issue, I request that you disclose the conflict of interest you have with this topic. This will help the debate stay positive and contextual.
Content you inserted in these edits [3] is problematic with multiple issues. You have inserted a purely negative paragraph citing this source [4] ( translation). I can not see the name Freer in the original or translated version of the source. It says Carl X. Which hides the surname as X and we can not determine that X is Freer so this is not a credible source or verifiable. Much much more concerning and dire issue is that you are violating a more source policy of WP:BLP. The policy states Exercise extreme caution in using primary sources. Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person. Your source is primary and exactly of that definition. Instead of exercising extreme caution, you are adding the source to back up a whole paragraph to edit war with negative edits after I only crossed this article and decided to edit a few things having played a few games that relate to the article. Your other edits are problematic too. Please do not reinsert such clear violations. -- Pichku ( talk) 11:47, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
Let's discuss edits from above version (which is current) so that edit war is stopped right where we are? Please answer above questions. -- Pichku ( talk) 11:42, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
As I have explained I want to clarify that my main purpose of revert was not to include content. I am new on this article and I only reverted to previous versions. After editing this, I got more interesting in improving the article too. You are the one including content or removing what was already there if I remember your edits correctly. And oh, I am getting info from sources I find on google. Where are you researching ? Above points are my preliminary search just to show that you are removing without considering and at same time including without giving due weight. So I think you have to do the explaining and I have to argue. But I find it better that as we started this discussion on edits after 11:17, 23 August 2017, can you tell me what you want now from 11:17, 23 August 2017 revision onward changed? So we get consensus or a revision which is neutrally worded without BLP violations? What do you want to include/exclude? Are you going to suggest revision you want to make now? What do to edit in current revision? -- Pichku ( talk) 10:24, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
I have marked two statements that are without citation and not covered in any of the sources referenced in the article so far. As this page is a WP:BLP, my first reaction to these was to remove them immediately from the article per Wikipedia guidelines, however since that approach seems to be controversial I will allow some time for discussion before doing so again. — Fugu Alienking ( contribs) 14:18, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
@ Pichku and Fugu Alienking:. A third opinion has been requested. I have not edited this article, and have no prior known interactions with either of the two editors involved. If you would kindly fill out the following template, because this has gone on for a while and the points have gotten a little muddied, I would appreciate it.
menaechmi ( talk · contribs) wants to offer a third opinion. To assist with the process, editors are requested to summarize the dispute in a short sentence below.
As such, I can give an opinion for each in turn.
Thanks. I have moved the mention of patents down in the body, I think that is fair. Criteria for mention of trivia is not as high as getting a new article and I think it is verifiable that he is an author of several patents, which makes it ok to add. But to compromise, I have moved it from intro to body. Further agreeing to compromise, I have removed Family Tree Foundation. These things are not a big deal as we are all here to improve this article. I have added wiki links to machine learning and AI. -- Pichku ( talk) 10:12, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
Thank you Menaechmi for offering your opinion. As mentioned above, I think this does not cover 100% of the dispute, but it has led to a start towards moving the page forward again, which is good. I would like to note though that of the two sources for the IBM Watson claim, one mentions "has been developed utilising the technology behind IBM’s extreme learning machine Watson", the other is curiously by "Staff Reporter", while other articles in the same publication are attributed to real authors. This is why I made what I expected to be a non-controversial tweak to the wording on 31 Aug. I do think that without a reliable source for IBM's direct involvement, Wikipedia should avoid any implication of such a relationship. Due to past claims relating to VXtreme, Kings Medical Trust and others, I would be especially careful about any claims that may have originated from Carl Freer himself. — Fugu Alienking ( contribs) 15:55, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
I think everyone here should calm down, and maybe go edit some other areas for a little while. If there are still issues, or you'd like to discuss my 3O, I'm willing to explain or discuss as needed, and if we still can't form some kind of consensus, we can all discuss the next steps in the dispute resolution process. For the point above, Watstock itself claims to be in collaboration with IBM Watson [17]. So, regardless of previous performance, if IBM Watson's team were to object to this it would have been removed and Watstock would be in court. I'm sure they use Watson as a series of APIs or the Watson SaaS, but again we go with sources (plus asserting that we should be "on the safe side" assumes there is a negative aspect to being associated with Freer which is a bias not present in any of the sources I've read. Most of the bad press falls to Stefan Eriksson in these matters). menaechmi ( talk) 13:49, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
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I re-introduced some material about Freer's previous transgressions with law. It had a valid reference to a WIRED article and it has been reverted for no apparent reason by an anonymous user.
I'll reintroduce the text and if it's reverted again it may be an idea to protect this page so it can only be edited by registered users. Gravy 11:16, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
I am not Carl Freer. I am however privy to information that might not yet be public and i should have included a formal reference. For that i apologize. However, I'm sorry to say that it seems that you have some personal vendetta against Freer judging by how you formulated your reply. Ironically, i am acutely aware of a libel action filed against atleast three different publications in connection with articles published 2005 - 2006. I will include the reference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrblowfeldt ( talk • contribs) 17:21, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
According to this article, Mr Freer's promised donation of 7 million kroner to Nordens Ark was lost in the collapse of Gizmondo. He did later make a smaller donation, but it does not seem enough to be notable, so I am removing the mention of Nordens Ark from this bio. Now that Mrblowfeldt has removed all the information surrounding Mr Freer's alleged criminal past and his links with known criminal Stefan Eriksson, there doesn't appear to be much left. -- Fugu Alienking 01:39, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Any reason why this was reverted without adding supporting references Mrblowfeldt? Your contributions to this page and others read suspiciously like those of someone constructing a false personal history with which to commit fraud, something Mr Freer has been accused of in the past with claims made concerning VXtreme and the Kings Medical Research Trust. -- Fugu Alienking 15:25, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
As referred to in Nordens Ark's annual report of 2005, http://www.nordensark.se the personal donation made by Carl Freer made him the largest ever private donator to the foundation. Freer was furthermore appointed as trustee of Kings Medical Research Trust. http://kingmedicalhistory.googlepages.com/home He did however resign following the slander campaign made against him for the association with Stefan Eriksson, concerned that it might taint the foundation. Tiger Telematics 10K filing of 2005 deals with the VXtreme misunderstanding made by a San Jose journalist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrblowfeldt ( talk • contribs) 00:54, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
I removed this line: You CAN'T structure sentences based on "in part" references. Its a joke...its either true or its not.
In November 2007, Mr. Freer provided his recount of the Gizmondo events, in part confirming many of the peculiar details, including going by the false name Eric Jonsson. [4][5][6] (Note: Veckans Affärer's title "Svindlande Affärer" is ambiguous; it means both dizzying business and swindling business.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Truthmaker1 ( talk • contribs) 17:35, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
To improve them they must be based on truthful accounts not simply place them back into the profile. This point was pulled out of context of the article and refers to an event that was prior to Gizmondo. I have placed it in the "Other Facts" portion and "improved" it to relate to the factual truth.
Additionally, I have removed all references to Stefan Ericcson. They are not revelant to Freer (regardless whether they had a personal relationship or not) and should not appear in this listing. The only other place they should potentially appear is in the Gizmondo listing.
Finally, I removed the Huffington reference. It contains personal contact information to Mr Freer and is not appropriate to be posted here.
Truthwriter1
I removed the name of Ericsson from the bio again as the cite does not even include the mention of ericsson by name and it is not reasonable to assume he should be mentioned. As he is not mentioned in the cite, it is not appropriate for him to be included in the bio. This feels like a glorified attempt to link the 2 people together. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Truthmaker1 ( talk • contribs) 07:48, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
I moved the cite for the DN article down to the Other News. The reading before was confusing and sounded like Freer resigned because of the article. I haven't seen anything that would prove one item was linked to the other. It is not therefore reasonable to assume the publication of the article led to the resignation.
Additionally, what was the result of the allegations? Fugu can you update the post to include a listing of the charges filed as a result of the investigation? If no charges were filed, you should "improve" your listings to include reference that no charges were ultimately filed. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by Truthmaker1 ( talk • contribs) 07:56, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
One last change...I have removed the sentence involving the reporting of a roughly $380M loss for Tiger Telematics. The cite used did not go anywhere. Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Truthmaker1 ( talk • contribs) 08:02, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
I have again removed the copy relating to Stefan Ericcson. It is not applicable to this bio entry. You are reaching here. The fact that the 2 men were involved with the same company is immaterial unless you plan on adding all of the managements names.
I also removed your attempt to tie Freers' resignation to the publication of articles. You have NOT established a revelant premise that defines the reason for putting them there. I could draw the same assumption by saying that Freer resigned after getting a haircut. The 2 events are not revelant to each other. Just as the association of Freers resignation and association with Ericcson or the publication of the articles.
If you have a copy of his resignation letter with a reference to either...produce it and I will accept that, otherwise, stop creating extra work and continually pushing your agenda. Wiki entries should be based on facts, not half-truths...
Truthwriter1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Truthmaker1 ( talk • contribs) 23:41, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
In November 2007, a Swedish newspaper published an interview with Mr. Freer, giving his version of Gizmondo's history and other previously reported events such as an explanation of why he used an alias "Eric Jonsson" while working as a second hand car salesman in the 1990's
I have removed the above comment from the Other Facts section. This is obviously someones idea of a joke...
Fugu, dude you have quite a suspicious nature regarding Freer. You always seem bent on the negative regarding this bio. I've edited out the conjecture in the Other Facts entries. It doesn't matter that 2 journalists didn't see the "proof" that Freer was in the Kings Medical trust. All that matters is the facts. He once was a trustee and now isn't. Simple... --Truthmaker1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Truthmaker1 ( talk • contribs) 15:42, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
DN (news of the day) reported allegations that Freer had a 1988 Swedish fraud-related court conviction involving the prominent business bank Skandinaviska Enskilda Banken I did some research and this event springs from a student loan that Freer signed when he was 17 (he was born in 1970). Apparently his father was unavailable to sign the note and denied signing it when the bank called to question it. The matter was settled out of court. Truthmaker1 ( talk) 06:27, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Image:Carl Freer.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. BetacommandBot 06:09, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
The facts about Mr. Freer and Gizmondo are true and indisputable. It is not slander, because slander requires a statements to be untrue. Mr. Freer even admits himself in the realtid.se interview that he has been convicted twice, once in Sweden and once in Germany. The fact that Gizmondo lost $382.5 million is relevant, even though Mr. Freer was not convicted of any crime. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Novelist ( talk • contribs) 05:18, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Extensive deletions by 75.47.237.75, 66.214.86.36, and Mrblowfeldt deletes nearly everything in this article except for Mr. Freers donations, whether they happened or not discussed below. The article, as-is, is factual, and the events are confirmed in the November 2007 interview by Mr. Freer in person, the same articles referred to as true by the deleting trio. These recent articles further provides recent pictures of Mr. Freer in a New York street setting. This article needs protection from editing by non-registered users.
After Mr. Freer was on the first page of Veckans Affärer, with the headline "Swindling business", he is well known in Sweden. It's like being on the front page of the Wall Street Journal, it's just not forgotten easily. There is plenty of fraud-related anecdotes around Mr. Freer but apparently no more than two convictions. I find it amazing how much disclosure was provided by the Swedish police in regards to their futile fraud investigations of Mr. Freer, conveniently absent. However, the most significant accomplishment beyond his family is how he spent $382.5 million of innocent investor's money. Convicted or not, these people lost their money, and that is a fact of public interest.
It is also interesting how MrBlowfelt claims to not be Carl Freer, whose latest venture apparently is called blowfishworks. Felt or Feldt is a not uncommon latter half of a Swedish surname. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Novelist ( talk • contribs) 21:22, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I just noticed that is IS Mrblowfeldt using the most common Swedish spelling. For not being Mr. Freer, he sure has a remarkable insight into Carl Freer's actions 20 years ago —Preceding unsigned comment added by Novelist ( talk • contribs) 21:32, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Speculation about the identities of Wikipedia editors has no place here, or in the edit summaries. However it appears that there are two very different points of view being pushed here, so I have requested that the page be reviewed for NPOV compliance. Hopefully an editor with no prior knowledge of Mr Freer's business dealings can read through the references provided (including those deleted by Mrblowfeldt and 66.214.86.36's most recent edits) and find a balance. Alternatively, they could reconsider my earlier suggestion of speedy deletion of this promotional bio for a non-notable living person. — Fugu Alienking ( talk) 12:18, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Where is the proof Alienking.com is tied to Carl Freer??? This should be removed immediately.. 22:13, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Looks like the reference was updated recently, probably to remove his name. If noone can find a better one, perhaps an admin should delete that (the page seems to be uneditable by us mere mortals) -- 83.67.23.108 14:29, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
I removed this section, because the reference (Xero Mobile's corporate site) does not support a connection, and after checking for better references, I found only rumours and a denial by Freer himself of any involvement. If reference to Xero is added back in, the references should be to a news article or other reference that supports his involvement, and if the reference is not definitive, the uncertainty of this fact should be noted. Also, the catogorization under company names makes this bio look like a resume, more so when the blowfish works section consisted of a single sentence. In my opinion, Carl Freer is noteworthy only for the rise and fall of Gizmondo, anything else belongs under the Other Facts section, but that of course is open to debate here. -- Fugu Alienking ( talk) 12:11, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
I added the reference. Thanks for pointing that out. - Truthmaker1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Truthmaker1 ( talk • contribs) 15:34, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Fugs.....hey, you just can't remove things because you don't like what they say. And I don't appreciate you removing my cites as well. The Newsweek article is appropriate for this bio since it highlights Freer. I have an original scan of the complete article that I can email to you if you like. Also, enough with the Xero Mobile removals. Freer founded and was involved with the company. So stop removing all the source material from it. I can provide at least another half dozen cites on this topic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Truthmaker1 ( talk • contribs) 18:41, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
As the only reference to his exhonoration is an interview with Freer himself, please refrain from removing the wording "Freer claims" from this claim. If you know of a published reference that is not from Freer himself, then please provide it when removing the word "claims". -- Fugu Alienking ( talk) 21:57, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Warning to fellow editors: A number of dubious claims regarding Freer's history have appeared in Tiger Telematics SEC filings and in newspaper and magazine articles about Carl Freer in the past. Many of them (both positive and negative) have made it into this article where they were subsequently disputed and removed. Please take extra care when checking references, and if there are conflicting reports where one cannot be judged as more authoritative than the other, it is probably best left out of this article. I have just removed the claim about Freer winning Swedish Entrepreneur of the Year in 1997, which originated in a Moneyweek article about him. The 1997 Swedish winner of the well known award is listed on Ernst and Young's website as Claes-Göran Österlund of Hotell Ekoxen. -- Fugu Alienking ( talk) 17:34, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
ATTN: Carl Freer commited no wrongdoing while working at TGTL —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.54.163.168 ( talk) 14:32, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
I am submitting several new updates to this profile as much new information has been published on Freer. I have included valid references for each of the new entries. There are many more to come. -Truthmaker —Preceding unsigned comment added by Truthmaker1 ( talk • contribs) 17:22, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
You can't remove copy I've submitted simply because you don't like what it says.. Truthmaker1 —Preceding comment was added at 11:03, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Where are the "other" journalists?? In prison as well?? We know you are biased AGAINST Freer, so your opinion is pointless. Regardless of the facts, you will ALWAYS believe Freer is a villain (as you have said before). I will NOT allow the integrity of this entry be compromised because you have a personal axe to grind regarding Freer. Truthmaker1 ( talk) 14:00, 6 June 2008 (UTC)Truthmaker1
Is multiply sourced content about Carl Freer's alias and past crimes appropriate for this biography? See the talk above and AfD discussion for previous discussion. Also see recent page history (early June 2008) for content in question.
Fugu Alienking is NOT an objective source for this article. See post on the Truthmaker1 discussion page from Fugu_alienking: He says "I villanize him because he is a villain. I don't like to see a valuable resource such as Wikipedia used to fabricate a squeaky clean resume-like profile in order to convince more investors to give their money to this fraudster. " This is HARDLY the discussion from an objective source. Truthmaker1 ( talk) 00:51, 8 June 2008 (UTC)Truthmaker1
I've posted questions about the "legal problems" section on the BLP noticeboard here. It's my understanding that if statements are well-sourced then they are not BLP violations, but lets let the experts give their feedback. IMO, the section does not violate BLP as no sources have been provided to say that the conviction and fine have been rescinded and the sources are excellent. Renee ( talk) 17:32, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
With regards to Media Power, Mikael Ljungman, and Carl Freer, please note that User:Riverside blue, User:Truthmaker1, and User:Needlepinch appear to be either the same editor, or working in concert. Additionally, all three are single-purpose accounts as they have only contributed to these articles. -- Ckatz chat spy 17:23, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Another addition to this list of single-purpose accounts for whitewashing Carl Freer - User:Pichku has made a number of edits, removing approximately half the article in the process, and changing a few minor details to put a certain false spin on his background. These SPAs seem to pop up whenever Carl Freer moves on to his next round of funding, so I look forward to seeing what scheme he has cooked up next. — Fugu Alienking ( contribs) 15:11, 1 August 2017 (UTC)
Is Freer not British/Swedish, he has two passports as far as I know. Why is he listed as Swedish then? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bjorn I. Clever ( talk • contribs) 03:53, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
The websites for several of Freer's various enterprises have been offline for the past few days, for example Media Power and Blowfishworks. Do we know the reason? Have these enterprises met the fate of Gizmondo Europe? Huon ( talk) 12:34, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
I've reworked the entry for the RICO finding to make it more appropriate. I have also removed the aliases. There is no proof Freer ever used those aliases. If there is a criminal docket with use of them, then they can be added. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bearsfanman ( talk • contribs) 15:07, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
Huon you are inaccurate with your definition as well. I reviewed the order and it accurately reflects the judgment now after Truthmaker edits this morning (apparently). I also saw the deletions on aliases. I agree the information on those aliases are non-material to the bio. The information about them is from secondary knowledge. -- Bearsfanman ( talk) 18:22, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
Huon, you can't just undo changes because you disagree with the findings. The court dismissed the 4 main charges with predijuce, dismissed the state charges without predijuce and left them no room to amend. If you continue to edit this outside of the order, I will complain to an editor and have you locked off the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bearsfanman ( talk • contribs) 20:17, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
Sure...there is more to the judgment than 1 line. The reasoning behind the motion and explanation in the judgment is very clear. The precedents used illustrate the depth of the motion. Simply quoting 1 sentence is like using a single line to describe how a car is built. Its impossible and no matter how carefully constructed could never be descriptive enough to tell the whole story. Its like the line that you omitted from this morning. The one that contains Media Power, Tiger Telematics etc. The release of those entities supports the judges findings. Am sure you can see that as well. -- Bearsfanman ( talk) 23:39, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
While I appreciate the effort, the judgment is related to Freer in more than 1 way. The suit covered his personal dealings, involvement in Tiger Telematics, Media Power and GetFugu. It is a major judgment from a US Federal judge (not a minor offense like the questionable signature issue, which his father and mother denies ever happened. You are using this article to settle a personal score with Freer which is highly inappropriate. -- Truthmaker1 ( talk) 04:03, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
Pls re-read the judgement. Even the sentence included is covered in the judgement.. -- Truthmaker1 ( talk) 18:56, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
Huon, as I have said multiple times, you cannot simply remove content because you are a freer hater. The judgement supports the statements I (and others) have written. Please take your personal feelings elsewhere. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bearsfanman ( talk • contribs) 03:39, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Check the ruling Page 5 &6. The judge is quite clear. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Truthmaker1 ( talk • contribs) 21:52, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
First, the securities issue is addressed on those pages.
Second, this is included as a lawsuit not a pronouncement. It is no different than the RICO post living on this profile as a total and complete lie. If I follow your logic, those who posted that gem should also be prosecuted.
Third, there is no copyright violation. Pls explain why you are making this allegation. -- Truthmaker1 ( talk) 01:25, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Rather than choose one version over the other, I have decided to remove this paragraph from the article for lack of notability, based on the lack of secondary sources, and the fact that the case came to nothing. -- Fugu Alienking ( talk) 15:15, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
There's currently a slow-moving revert war going on involving the interpretation of a recent court ruling regarding Freer (unfortunately written in legalese) and whether Freer's past convictions for petty fraud, which were mentioned to The Times and the LA Times, should be mentioned in the article. Huon ( talk) 08:26, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Article said "The company went bankrupt in February 2006". That statement is wrong as per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insolvency_Act_1986. As you can see, only individuals go Bankrupt under The Insolvency Act 1986. Companies go into Liquidation in the UK, and Gizmondo Europe Ltd was a UK Incorporation. Setomorp ( talk) 04:46, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
Please exercise caution when linking the actions of individuals to negative business performance. If you are going to name individuals as having responsibility for the loss of of substantial amounts of money, and the demise of a company, then your sources need to be impeccable. Naming some individuals, and not others as responsible for negative performance does not seem correct to me. IMHO all or none and be certain that there is a link between the individual and the outcome before your imply one. I don't know anything about the subject of the article however it appears to me that some POV has entered the article. Flat Out let's discuss it 03:29, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
I've transferred the below discussion here from my talk page. Jackmcbarn ( talk) 12:24, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
Dear Jackmcbarn,
Thank you for your communication to me regarding the recent edit to Carl Freer. You have suggested that I have been less than neutral I therefore take this opportunity to say why you are mistaken in this matter.
Back in 2004/5 I actually knew Carl Freer quite well, I was not a business associate I was an employee. I was thinking of reaching out to Mr. Freer so went to Wikipedia to find out what he was currently up to. I was more than surprised to see the lack of balance and bias on the page. The corrections I have done are completely factual, let me take them in order:
1. Gizmondo Europe Limited could not be declared bankrupt as the insolvency of a company in the United Kingdom is governed an Act of Parliament called the Insolvency Act 1986. It defines the steps an insolvent company can take, it also defines the steps an individual can take when they find themselves in an insolvent position. In the UK under the Insolvency Act 1986 Individuals go bankrupt and companies go into liquidation. Therefore for this page to state it went into bankruptcy is wrong.
2. The compulsory liquidation of Gizmondo Europe Limited was declared in the High Courts in London on 2nd February 2006. This is a factual statement which can be sourced from the London Gazette, a publication that covers the insolvency sector in the UK, it can be sourced directly from the High Courts or alternatively from the joint Liquidators who were appointed to oversee the liquidation and they are Begbies Traynor and David Reubens.
3. The edit on Freer and Ericksson, Gizmondo lost hundreds of millions of dollars. This statement is clearly biased as it was added some time ago. Freer and Ericksson had resigned from Gizmondo Europe and Tiger Telematic in October 2004. If it was to be an accurate statement maybe it should read 'under the Board' or 'under the Directors'. This as it stands is an attempt to smear and therefore biased. Whoever put that statement there is suggesting to the reader that Freer and Ericksson created these losses and that is why it should be replaced.
In addition to the points you have raised there are a number of other matters that I would like to raise with you in the hope that you can either advise or provide guidance as I would like to now edit a number of points on the page.
The Wiki pages are broken down into 4 parts, especially on a living biography, there is the named person, the business activities, legal problems and references. I get no sense of the individual Carl Freer. It doesn't tell me if he is married, has children, enjoys hobbies. It has been edited in such a way that he is denounced as a fraudster on the second line. Even for accuracy's sake shouldn't that be under 'legal problems'?
As for his business partner, why are they not all named? Tiger and Gizmondo had a great many Directors but they are not named as his partners, only one is named and that would seem to be biased as there is an overt attempt to build links only with Stefan Ericksson.
Your opinion and viewpoint would be most welcomed and I am happy to dialogue with you on this matter. I also plan to contact Mr. Freer to ask him for his point of view on this matter.
Whatever the wrongs or rights of Mr. Freer I am by no means an apologist for him and I always believe that I have adopted a neutral position supported by facts. Hopefully my comments above assisted you with your understanding of my thinking and editing and you will put the edits back on the page.
Could I kindly request that you review the edits up until last year as it seems to me there is an attempt by some contributors to build the worst possible picture of Mr. Freer and could I ask when those edits were being done did you make your views known to them?
Regards, Onlinefactcheck ( talk) 08:20, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
Dear Jackmcbarn,
I can see from your page that you are busy with other edits. I have left you a message on your talk page explaining my thoughts and the facts to support my edits. I am confident that you will agree with me that they are balanced and not biased. I have put the edits back up as I feel I have answered your concerns. I would be most grateful for your commentary on the other matters I raised.
Regards, Onlinefactcheck ( talk) 08:16, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
Sorry I don't think you have compromised. How this sentence reads now is incorrect and seems to focus only on one or two of the Directors, who both resigned in October 2005 before the company went into liquidation in Feb 2006. I feel the sentence should read: Under the control of the Directors, Gizmondo lost tens of millions of pounds before going into compulsory liquidation in February 2006. Onlinefactcheck ( talk) 10:28, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
Open the link below and you will see all the company Directors of Gizmondo Europe Ltd. http://companycheck.co.uk/company/04620348/GIZMONDO-EUROPE-LIMITED/directors-shareholders#people Onlinefactcheck ( talk) 15:26, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
Sorry I have to disagree with you. I will go over the passage to clarify.. "Under Freer and Eriksson" should read "Under the control of the Directors." In 2004 there were a total of 5 Directors so singling out only two of them is incorrect. "Gizmondo lost hundreds of millions of dollars: in 2004" As you know, Gizmondo was a UK registered company, so all of its accounts are in British pounds and not US dollars. Gizmondo did not lose hundreds of million of dollars or pounds in 2004, it reports that in the year ending December 2004 Gizmondo lost £49 million pounds, so should read "Gizmondo lost tens of millions of pounds in 2004" I hope this clarifies everything for you. Onlinefactcheck ( talk) 09:16, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
I have changed the word "dollars" to "pounds". As you know Gizmondo was a UK registered company and has only ever dealt in pounds, so you shouldn't have a problem with this change. Onlinefactcheck ( talk) 14:19, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
You say.. "but you should convert all of the usages to be pounds if you want to do that" What else needs to be change ? Onlinefactcheck ( talk) 15:33, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
I thank you, Jackmcbarn, for moderating here. I am the user who added much of the content that has been altered and reverted. All of the content is meticulously sourced; the sources are all well-regarded secondary sources found all over Wikipedia on good articles; they are available online for anyone to use to check the facts in the Wikipedia article. Most of the edits being proposed by this new editor do not conform to the sources cited. I would add that some of the new edits have as their rationale that, in the couple of months intervening between Freer's departure and filing with the court, the company lost all, or even a substantial portion, of the money it lost overall. In fact, it lost most of that money before Freer's departure, while he was still in his leadership position, as the sources made clear. I am dreadfully suspicious of a newly-registered editor with a stated personal bias whose only edits are to Freer's article and to this talk page. As you can see in the history of Freer's pages and the pages of Freer's associates, there are a noticeable number of throwaway accounts and single-use anonymous IPs making edits to remove material. Thank you again. Universaladdress ( talk) 04:54, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
Come back from Christmas break and see that 2 of the 3 articles I nominated for deletion have been deleted. The 3rd that was not deleted, this article, was recommended for deletion and although there were not any policy reasons left by those voting to keep the article, it appears to have been kept. I also see that the discussion was closed early which is puzzling. Anyways, I did not realize this page was so contentious until reading the talk history here. Doesn’t appear that anyone wants to do anything to improve the biography, so I am taking the liberty to clean this up. This article is a major BLP violation as it contains original research and seems to slant everything negative towards this guy which is not neutral. There is also another article related to a member of the former company Stefan Eriksson which will need cleaned up as well. The sources in this article are poor at best with the exception of the LA Time and The Sunday Times. It talks about a failed gaming device and how it was the worse seller of all time, yet there is an article for the game where this information she be listed. I would advise anyone coming to edit this article take a look at WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE. -- JakenBox ( talk) 18:30, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
Except Wikipedia is governed by consensus and guidelines that are established based on consensus. Please do not parse words by stating the article was “kept” 2 times before. The 1st time it was kept by default as there was no consensus reached. The 2nd time it was closed early after the discussion was extended and a few half-hearted keep votes were left without giving any policy or guideline reason to keep it. As such, I asked that the discussion be re-opened for further discussion. In the meantime, I would again suggest that you do not add unsourced information into the article or information that is not in the source provided as this is a violation of guidelines for BLP articles. If you have an issue with the guidelines for BLP articles, please discuss it at the BLP noticeboard. I previously notified you of this, but you seem to want to take a different route. Please refer to the noticeboard, the edit comments of the article, and your own talk page as I am trying to work this out with you, but it seems form the edit history of this article that you are determined to violate BLP guidelines in order to create an attack page for this guy. While you are at it, maybe take a look at the articles for Stefan Eriksson, Tiger Telematics, and Gizmundo as well. This looks like an orchestrated play to discredit these companies and former directors by creating Wikipedia pages as attack pages. -- JakenBox ( talk) 16:29, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
There appears to be one editor, UA, that came back after I spent considerable time doing a fix up job here, as I have elsewhere. I'm starting this section as a forum for others to specifically communicate what should be on this page. DavidWestT ( talk) 23:10, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
The Forbes List lists all billionaires. In 2005, the year which was claimed in some versions of this page that Carl Freer was number 698, the total number was 691, which you can still see at the link given even if you cannot see the names. It is somewhat convenient that the list appears to be broken, as it misleads the reader into thinking the 691 figure is part of the brokenness. It isn't, here is another page making it clear that the list really only went up to 691: http://www.forbes.com/2005/03/09/bill05land.html Fugu Alienking ( talk) 16:18, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
You don't even need synthesis. I have a 2005 Forbes edition. It's now scanned. I am looking for any method to submit it here. I can't simply "copy and paste" to the talk page, otherwise we'd all have it in front of us by now. DavidWestT ( talk) 05:27, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
The assembly of the data is what's protected since data isn't protected by US copyright law. It is a printscreen of the online mag.
The data shows:
[page 30]
Forbes richest people
Marion Sandler
Edward Roski Jr
Joaquim Neto
Ahmet Zorlu
Yeoh Tiong Lay & Family
Jesse Robinson
Nelson Peltz
Richard Peery
Robert Naify
Carl Freer
Kenneth Langone
All show a "tied" rank of #698.
Citizenship column shows, respectively:
United States
United States
Brazil
Turkey
Malaysia
United States
United States
United States
United States
Sweden
United States
Net Worth ($ BIL)
All show "1.1"
Residence column, respectively:
United States
United States
Brazil
Turkey
Malaysia
United States
United States
United States
United States
United States
United States
Age column shows, again respectively:
75
67
40
61
76
82
63
65
84
35
70
DavidWestT ( talk) 18:50, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
References
Interesting. 2006 isn't relevant. Is there a way to get you a copy of the scan I have then? DavidWestT ( talk) 00:00, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
Even more interesting. I read off the order I have in the scan from top to bottom. I'll cross-check the ages with 2006. 67.198.78.84 ( talk) 18:54, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
Some of the information that has been entered into the Legal issues section seems to be from interim decisions in an ongoing case, which are covered by the following disclaimer in the court records: California Rules of Court, rule 8.1115(a), prohibits courts and parties from citing or relying on opinions not certified for publication or ordered published, except as specified by rule 8.1115(b). This opinion has not been certified for publication or ordered published for purposes of rule 8.1115.. There are more recent decisions in the same case which partially contradict what is currently stated in this section, but I do not think it is appropriate to make statements on Wikipedia while the case is ongoing, so have been removing the contradicted statements and replacing them with a statement that the case was filed and is ongoing. However, I do not wish to get into an edit war, and request a third party to decide what is an appropriate course of action here, as DavidWestT seems determined to keep the record reading a specific way. Fugu Alienking 02:54, 28 March 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fugu Alienking ( talk • contribs)
As Freer has developed a history of exaggerated claims, and money pledged and widely advertised, but never followed through (see Gizmondo's lawsuits with MTV, Jordan racing team and Ogilvy and claims related to Norden's Ark and King's Medical Trust for earlier examples), I think it is important to balance this press release about a donation to Georgia Tech over a 5 year period with the information that the company ceased to exist long before that period was over, and that Georgia Tech no longer lists any information about links to Media Power on their website. I previously added the following passage, but it was quickly reverted by the current defender of Freer's online reputation.
As there appears to be controversy over this paragraph, I'd like to get some comments here on how it can be improved before re-adding it. — Fugu Alienking ( contribs) 16:19, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
References
I hope this isn't taken as unnecessarily jovial, because I don't mean it that way, but I don't want to step on a landmine here. Can someone give me a short, neutral summary of why this page has been sent up for deletion twice and sent back? ComicsAreJustAllRight ( talk) 07:09, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute. |
Fugu Alienking, your edits are in clear cut violation of WP:BLP, therefore, I am reverting them completely.
You appear to be single purpose account. I checked your editing history on wikipedia [2] and since 2007 you have made negative BLP edits on Carl Freer article maybe with very few positive edits that made article neutral. You have made around 700 edits on wikipedia and out of which 162 are focused on Mikael Ljungman (also negative apparently, I am not of any opinion on that subject anyway as I am not well informed about Ljungman) and all other edits are focused on Carl Freer or closely related articles with minor or no other edits to other topics. Therefore, before giving my comments on the content issue, I request that you disclose the conflict of interest you have with this topic. This will help the debate stay positive and contextual.
Content you inserted in these edits [3] is problematic with multiple issues. You have inserted a purely negative paragraph citing this source [4] ( translation). I can not see the name Freer in the original or translated version of the source. It says Carl X. Which hides the surname as X and we can not determine that X is Freer so this is not a credible source or verifiable. Much much more concerning and dire issue is that you are violating a more source policy of WP:BLP. The policy states Exercise extreme caution in using primary sources. Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person. Your source is primary and exactly of that definition. Instead of exercising extreme caution, you are adding the source to back up a whole paragraph to edit war with negative edits after I only crossed this article and decided to edit a few things having played a few games that relate to the article. Your other edits are problematic too. Please do not reinsert such clear violations. -- Pichku ( talk) 11:47, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
Let's discuss edits from above version (which is current) so that edit war is stopped right where we are? Please answer above questions. -- Pichku ( talk) 11:42, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
As I have explained I want to clarify that my main purpose of revert was not to include content. I am new on this article and I only reverted to previous versions. After editing this, I got more interesting in improving the article too. You are the one including content or removing what was already there if I remember your edits correctly. And oh, I am getting info from sources I find on google. Where are you researching ? Above points are my preliminary search just to show that you are removing without considering and at same time including without giving due weight. So I think you have to do the explaining and I have to argue. But I find it better that as we started this discussion on edits after 11:17, 23 August 2017, can you tell me what you want now from 11:17, 23 August 2017 revision onward changed? So we get consensus or a revision which is neutrally worded without BLP violations? What do you want to include/exclude? Are you going to suggest revision you want to make now? What do to edit in current revision? -- Pichku ( talk) 10:24, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
I have marked two statements that are without citation and not covered in any of the sources referenced in the article so far. As this page is a WP:BLP, my first reaction to these was to remove them immediately from the article per Wikipedia guidelines, however since that approach seems to be controversial I will allow some time for discussion before doing so again. — Fugu Alienking ( contribs) 14:18, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
@ Pichku and Fugu Alienking:. A third opinion has been requested. I have not edited this article, and have no prior known interactions with either of the two editors involved. If you would kindly fill out the following template, because this has gone on for a while and the points have gotten a little muddied, I would appreciate it.
menaechmi ( talk · contribs) wants to offer a third opinion. To assist with the process, editors are requested to summarize the dispute in a short sentence below.
As such, I can give an opinion for each in turn.
Thanks. I have moved the mention of patents down in the body, I think that is fair. Criteria for mention of trivia is not as high as getting a new article and I think it is verifiable that he is an author of several patents, which makes it ok to add. But to compromise, I have moved it from intro to body. Further agreeing to compromise, I have removed Family Tree Foundation. These things are not a big deal as we are all here to improve this article. I have added wiki links to machine learning and AI. -- Pichku ( talk) 10:12, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
Thank you Menaechmi for offering your opinion. As mentioned above, I think this does not cover 100% of the dispute, but it has led to a start towards moving the page forward again, which is good. I would like to note though that of the two sources for the IBM Watson claim, one mentions "has been developed utilising the technology behind IBM’s extreme learning machine Watson", the other is curiously by "Staff Reporter", while other articles in the same publication are attributed to real authors. This is why I made what I expected to be a non-controversial tweak to the wording on 31 Aug. I do think that without a reliable source for IBM's direct involvement, Wikipedia should avoid any implication of such a relationship. Due to past claims relating to VXtreme, Kings Medical Trust and others, I would be especially careful about any claims that may have originated from Carl Freer himself. — Fugu Alienking ( contribs) 15:55, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
I think everyone here should calm down, and maybe go edit some other areas for a little while. If there are still issues, or you'd like to discuss my 3O, I'm willing to explain or discuss as needed, and if we still can't form some kind of consensus, we can all discuss the next steps in the dispute resolution process. For the point above, Watstock itself claims to be in collaboration with IBM Watson [17]. So, regardless of previous performance, if IBM Watson's team were to object to this it would have been removed and Watstock would be in court. I'm sure they use Watson as a series of APIs or the Watson SaaS, but again we go with sources (plus asserting that we should be "on the safe side" assumes there is a negative aspect to being associated with Freer which is a bias not present in any of the sources I've read. Most of the bad press falls to Stefan Eriksson in these matters). menaechmi ( talk) 13:49, 8 September 2017 (UTC)