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The photo on this page identifies Rabbi Yisroel Ber Odesser as "The Head" of Breslov Hasidism. This is not correct. First of all, he is now deceased (died 1994). Second, there is no one "head" of Breslov Hasidism. There are several different groups of Breslov Hasidim today, with many leaders whom different Breslovers look up to for advice. This caption would better read something like, "Rabbi Yisroel Ber Odesser, a respected leader (but not the Rebbe) within Breslov Hasidism. Died 1994." I would have changed it myself but I don't know how to do captions yet. Please do so. (Posted by Rabbi Yonassan Gershom, webmaster at Hasidism.info, and a Breslover Hasid.)
Update: I figured out how to change the caption. (Rooster613 is Rabbi Gershom's ID here)
Rooster613 06:27, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)The full quote regarding Rebbe Nachman's opinion on the nature of a Tzaddik's soul is as follows. I am putting this here rather than on the page itself (where I did add the source and page ref.) because I feel it would clutter up the article to put it all there.
Nathan of Nemirov (Rebbe Nachman's personal secretary) wrote in Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom: "The Rebbe (i.e., Nachman) spoke out very strongly against those who thought that the main reason for a Tzaddik's great attainments was the high level of his soul. He insisted that this was not true, maintaining that it depends completely on good deeds (mitzvot)and effort. He was very specific in emphasizing this. He said, 'Every person can attain the highest level. It depends on nothing but your own free choice... For everything depends upon a multitude of deeds.'" (page 29) On the same page Rabbi Nathan also quotes Rebbe Nachman as saying that he was not automatically a Tzaddik because of his family background (as great-grandson of the Baal Shem Tov), but only through his own efforts and "Devoting his entire being to the service of God." User:Rooster613
Perhaps a section should be put in on the N-Na-Nach-Namchma-Nachman. http://www.wzo.org.il/en/resources/view.asp?id=1172-- PinchasC 13:56, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Excellent idea! I will gladly do it (unless somebody else does first) but probably not until after Pesach. Maybe we should also have a separate page on Rabbi Odesser (who introduced the Na-Nach-Nachma-Nachman-m'Uman chant.) I have some bio info on him, and we already have a photo here. Rooster613 01:03, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It is best that you do it, being that you seem to understand Breslov, and its customs, as opposed to somone else that will only write on what he sees and not on what really is.-- PinchasC 01:13, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It's finally done! Follow the link Na Nach Nachma to check it out. Re: use of the word mantra: I realize this is not an authentically Jewish term, but it has entered the English language, it describes the process, and there's a Wiki page on it. So it makes sense to use it here. Rooster613
The photo that was added on 21 Sept is not how the grave looks today. This picture was probably taken before 1999. Yoninah 19:51, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
This article begans with the rather emphatic declaration that "Breslov is not Breslau or Bratzlav or Bratislava." However, someone is making redirects in other articles about Breslov personalities, to the effect that any mention of the town of "Breslov" redirects to "Bratslav." On the Bratslav page it says specifically that this is the town in which Rebbe Nachman lived and taught. Could someone please clear this up? If Breslov is not Bratslav, what is it? Remember that towns in Ukraine didn't have Jewish names to start with. Yoninah 11:21, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Until now, everyone's been writing "Breslov" whether they're referring to the hasidic dynasty or to the town. I just went through all the links to this page and make sure everything links to [Breslov (Hasidic Dynasty)]. All references to the city should read: [Bratslav|Breslov]. Thank you. Yoninah 16:06, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Rabbi Yisroel Karduner, one of the 36 hidden tzadikim, and one of the main transmitters of the correct Breslov tradition, also made the mistake, upon learning about Rabbi Nachman he journied with great self sacrifice to Breslau only to learn that he wanted Breslov. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Na Nach Nachmu Nachmun ( talk • contribs) 15:51, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
The external links section is beginning to look like a posterboard for any organization or person who has "Breslov" in their title. Is this proper Wikipedia style? Yoninah 20:09, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Answering your question, first mi nick name es "Bresolver" no "Breslover", OK?. And the links are to Breslov's pages, and this are what breslov pages said. Bresolver 00:58, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Hi Bresolver: Yoninah's concerns are legitimate. Kindly familiarize yourself with Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not, and especially please read:
If you have questions, feel free to ask. IZAK 02:46, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Please, explain me why you think i put wrong links? I just put breslovers links!
Bresolver 04:15, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
The purpose of an encyclopedia is to provide factual information in a neutral, journalistic approach that we call N-POV ( Neutral Point of View). This does not mean we must list every single Breslov site on the Web. Sites that are simply promoting a particular yeshiva, radio station, book, rabbi, collections of sermons, or whatever without giving much factual info that would be useful in research ABOUT Breslov seem inappropriate to me. Some of the links added recently, such as Radio Breslov, are already linked on the link launcher, "Breslov on the Internet," hence redundant. (However, that site DOES want to list everything on the Net, so if you get listed there, your group is indirectly linked anyway.) And I do not think that sites primarily in Hebrew are useful to an English encyclopedia. I went through every outside link today and removed those that seemed inappropriate. Granted, this is my personal call, but I have put in a lot of effort trying to keep this and other Breslov pages reasonably N-POV. Rooster613 00:17, 27 February 2006 (UTC)Rooster613
"The well-known tune to Ani Maamin ("I believe") is attributed to Breslover Hasidim who sang it on their way to the gas chambers." The song is from modzitz hassidim, you can find the history here: http://www.modzitz.org/ in the part of the storys. Kol tuv (sorry for the ortography mistaques) Bresolver 21:01, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for the info. Regarding "Ani Ma'amin," I have heard form several Holocaust survivors that Breslovers popularized it in the camps. However, this would not negate the tune coming from Modzitz. Perhaps both are true? Rooster613 00:48, 27 February 2006 (UTC)Rooster613
Maybe both are true... The Breslov page is one of the worst of all the hasidic dynasties, Dont you think? 01:18, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Dear Bresolver: I appreciate your sincerity and attempts to make this a better page, but am finding it very hard to deal with your spelling errors. If every time you add something, someone else has to fix it up, you will find that your words will also be changed. Perhaps you could find an English dictionary or a friend to help you before you change the page? Thanks, Yoninah 21:34, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Okey, but i haven't a lot of time...excuse me im trying to do the better. Bresolver 04:07, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't think it is productive to make statements about which Hasidic dynasty has the worst page(s) -- this rings to much like sectarian quarresl. If a page has problems, please contribute some content, not flames. Rooster613 18:50, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
The Name is Breslev and not Breslov, breslev is a game of words "bris-lev -cincursicion of the heart" like is write on Sichot HaRan.
What is the difference? is the real name of the movement is breslev, don't care if i'm log in or not.
Logging in gives you some credibility as to who you are and what your sources of info are. Now, it is true that the spelling "Breslev" is used by at least one group in Israel, so perhaps this should be mentioned as an alternative spelling and disambiguated. However, In the English language, the spelling "Breslov" is the one most commonly used by Breslover Hasidim. (The difference may well be one of regional accents -- Ashkenazi vs Sephardic or some such, since only one vowel change is in dispute.) Breslov is also the spelling used by the Breslov Research Institute (for which, perhaps, we should have a page?) -- a major publisher of Breslov materials in English. Rooster613 18:57, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
The name, according to Rabbi Nachman and Rabbi Natan, is Breslev. In all the sefarim Rabbi Natan printed it as Breslev, with two segols. מספר רבי נתן: "עוד שמעתי שפעם אחת סמוך לכניסתו לברסלב מזגו לו כוס יין לקידוש ונשפך על הארץ ומזגו לו כוס אחר וקידש עליו. ואחר כך אמר: היום נטענו שם: ברסלביר חסידים. ושם זה לא ישתקע לעולם, כי לעולם יהיו אנשי שלומנו נקראים על שם עיר ברסלב" (חיי מוהר"ן קט"ו) למה דווקא בברסלב ניטע השם הזה? "דאיתא במדרש על פסוק "ונתתי לכם לב בשר", אל תקרי בשר אלא בוסר, שיהיה כל אחד בוסר בחלק של חברו. לב בסר אותיות ברסלב". (חיי מוהר"ן של"ט) Rabbi Natan writes: I also heard that around the time he entered Breslev [two segols here, as in all other instances] they poured him a cup of wine for Kidush and it got spilled on the ground and they poured him another cup and he made kidush on it. Afterwards he [Rabi Nachman] said 'Today we have planted the name "Breslever Chasidim." And this name shall never fade, for our people shall always be called after the name of the city Breslev (Chayey Moharan 115). Why was this name specifically planted in Breslev? Because it is brought in the Midrash regarding the verse "And I will give you a heart of flesh (lev basar)" (Eze. 36:26) -- do not read it basar/flesh, but boser (cholem tzeireh), for everyone will be "boser b'chelek shel chavero"/rejoicing in the good fortune of his friend [Yalk. Gen. 61]. "Lev basar" is the letters of Breslev. (Chayey Moharan 139) Accordingly, I think everything should be changed to Breslev and not Breslov. Nissimnanach ( talk) 06:26, 13 April 2010 (UTC)Nissimnanach
Rabbi Schick- Yavniel branch of breslov should be addressed as well...
Famous curse: there is a story that when Joseph Kennedy just before WWII used his influence as the U.S. Ambassador to the UK to prevent Jews in German held territories being granted visas (and safety) to the US, the Rebbe cursed him and his entire family for his actions - many believe that the problems of the family (down to the drunk driving accident of Patrick Kennedy) all date to that curse - does anyone want to place that in the story?
Incorrect
whoops, your're correct, I just checked, the story involves the Belz'e Rebbe, I've posted the above there. Thanks. Incorrect 02:04, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
As the article states correctly, this article is about the Breslov movement or branch of chasidus. It cannot be about the Breslov (Hasidic dynasty) for the simple reason that Reb Nachman had no successor and therefore did not start a dynasty. In the interests of accuracy, can we move the article to "Breslov"?-- Redaktor 20:58, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
It's somewhat, kinda accurate. If you take dynasty to mean a passing of something down a chain of successors rather than as a herditary thing. (Which admittadly is more accurate.) Plus, you could just surrender to the fact that "dynasty" has come to be the English word for a Chasidic sect. Shia1 13:55, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
But there is no chain of succession, as there has been no rebbe in Breslov since Rabbi Nachman. And I do not accept that 'dynasty' is the English word for a chasidic 'sect'.-- Redaktor 21:11, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm with Redaktor. What is this "Dynasty" business?! Everyone knows very clearly there was no successor, even Rabbi Natan never took any kind of Rebbehood, Moha-keit/Moho-keit, Admor-ship etc.! Nissimnanach ( talk) 06:35, 13 April 2010 (UTC)Nissimnanach
This statement, "Its Hasidim see Torah life as the means to a joyful existence," is not accurate. The wording should be reversed to, "Breslov Hasidis sees a joyful existence as the means to living a Torah life." Rebbe Nachman never said doing mitzvahs will make you happy, he said being happy will help you do mitzvahs, and is a mitzvah in and of itself which a person is obligated to keep regardless of how he feels. Also it should be pointed out that the definition of joy is different from the Western definition. Shia1 13:52, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
This is not fine, although Shia1 has made a valid statement that Rabbi Nachman taught that it is a mitzva to be happy and this will help one do the mitzvos, and do the mitzvos in the most proper way, Rabbi Nachman taught MANY times that doing mitzvos brings happiness, often quoting the verse in Psalms "Pikuday Hashem Yishurim Misamchay Lev" - "the commandmends of G-d are just they bring Joy to the heart". For correct understanding of Rabbi Nachman and the practices of Breslov one should visit nanach.net. Na Nach Nachmu Nachmun ( talk) 17:49, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
It is written in the article that Breslovers have a mantra during Hitbodedut. This is not true. Hitbodedut by definition is spontaneous, individual prayer. R' Nachman never used a mantra himself.
It may be that the confusion came from what R' Nachman taught that even if one has nothing to say by Hitbodedut besides to call out Ribono shel Okam, that's also good.
There is no mantra, and there is no emphasis on the "oy" syllable. Breslovers may say oy during hisbodedus in order to express their broken-heartedness, but not as part of "riboynoy shel oylam" or some joke like that. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Madisonriver9 (
talk •
contribs) 22:54, 27 November 2008 (UTC) Well put, I have expounded on this in the next section entitled Mantra. For further reference visit nanach.net.
Na Nach Nachmu Nachmun (
talk) 17:49, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
The article says that Rabbi Nachman and his followers make use of a mantra. This is a big fallacy started I believe by the late Rabbi Arye Kaplan OB"M, although a tremendous scholar who did priceless work for Judiasm his bias for the esoteric led him to deviant interpretations. Rabbi Nachman taught the importance of secluding oneself with G-d and engaging Him in conversation. Primarily one should be trying to speak about new topics and ideas (Likutay Eitzos; Hisbodidus 2), however since this is a very high and hard level and more often most people can't even open their mouths to say anything, Rabbi Nachman advised and encouraged people to stubbornly stick to whatever it is they could say. If there was one request they had that they were able to verbalize, they should repeat it over and over until they would be able to come up with something else. And if one could not even mouth one complete request, then emitting the entreaty and call of longing, "Master of the World" would have to suffice and should be said over and over again until one could advance further. Sometimes people can't even open up at all, Rabbi Nachman said even still they should be stubborn sitting silently in front of G-d, eventually maybe only after years the person will break through. R. Arye Kaplan got very excited by the part about saying one thing over and over again because that's like a mantra! But anyone who sees it in context can see clearly that the intent was nothing to do with a mantra, I am not denying that a person heeding this particular advice of Rabbi Nachman might benefit as people can from a mantra, however that was not the purpose or the focus of the task advised by Rabbi Nachman. Not that this needs any further proof, rather to further the development of this discussion, I refer to Rabbi Nussun bragging about his prize student R' Moshe Breslevor (from whom the Nanach have the unique and strongest tradition of the ways of Rabbi Nachman of Breslov - see nanach.net), who was able to say "Master of the World" 500 times in succession. This is a paltry number for someone attempting to reach higher consciousness by mean of mantra. However for a person experiencing estrangement from G-d, and even still musters the courage to seek out and call out to G-d, 500 times that is definitely something to brag about.
The article then continues to discuss the true chant and song of the Breslover Chasidim: Na Nach Nachmu Nachman MayUman! This maybe in fact considered a mantra, if one would include songs of spirit, extisy, devotion, and supernal binding as a mantra. Just as the Arizal commanded his prize student, Rabbi Chaim Vital, to call out Akiva Akiva 10 before every prayer so that he would bind his soul to the soul of the Tanaic Sage and Martyr Rabbi Akiva, so and much much greater do those who pronounce this holy song Na Nach Nachmu Nachman MayUman - bind themselves to the holy soul of Rabbi Nachman of Breslov! Even if the article discriminates against the Nanach, it is clear that it is the Nanach that are binding themselves all the time to Rabbi Nachman and thus are clearly the strongest to be associated to Rabbi Nachman!
Anyone who would like to understand and better yet, taste, real Breslov Chasidus, the Real Rabbi Nachman of Breslov, should visit nanach.net. Na Nach Nachmu Nachmun ( talk) 17:40, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
call 718 855 2121 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Emes5767 ( talk • contribs) 13:30, 8 January 2009 (UTC) one should avoid the lectures of people who are just looking for honor and money. even when Rabbi Nachman was living he expected people to build their own personality and character and make their own decisions, and Rabbi Nachman avoided telling people out right what to do, and sometimes even expected people to disagree with what he told them (as in the famous story when he told Rabbi Nussun to become a Rabbi....). Much of Rabbi Nachman's teachings are available in English (from the original, without mutations, just mistakes that are always unavoidable), for FREE download at nanach.org. You can also correspond with live followers of Rabbi Nachman at nanach.net. This is the true way of Rabbi Nachman. Na Nach Nachmu Nachmun ( talk) 15:45, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Rosh_Hashana_kibbutz_(Breslov)
What is the correct spelling in English — Breslov or Breslev? Google actually give smore results on the latter one. And there are many hassidic sites that use Breslev, not Breslov. I am Russian and cannot think of a grammar rule or a similar case that would allow to interchange these two. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mizanthrop ( talk • contribs) 12:11, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
The reference in Chayey Moharan 339 explains Breslev in relation to a verse about lev basar/heart of flesh. Then it refers to a midrash that talks about a "lev boser bchelko shel chavero"/a heart rejoicing in the good fortune of his friend. As you know Breslev is about the lev/heart. See also above for fuller citations and more discussion. Nissimnanach ( talk) 06:43, 13 April 2010 (UTC)Nissimnanach
A recent move was made by User Yehoishophot Oliver ( talk · contribs) to downgrade this group from "dynasty" to "group". The one making these changes did so from a pro-Chabad POV that views Breslov as their rivals. The name "Dynasty" is a generic name for all the Hasidic "groups" on WP since for a long time now, it has been standard procedure not to use the label "sect" because it is demeaning, likewise "group" sounds common-place and not far off from "sect". A "dynasty" denotes a "group" too, even if the seat of power is not held by a direct family member, the "monarchical" and dynastic nature of such Hasidic movements stay intact through each generation that rules in the name of both living and dead rebbes. Such is even the case now in Chabad where the "dynasty" continues even though there has been no succession and no single rabbi has been appointed to the "throne" in the present, yet the movement bases itself on the authority of its last deceased leader. Category:Hasidic dynasties makes clear that this naming convention has been the universally accepted naming convention on WP for many years and changes should not be made without seeking very wide and extensive input. Thank you, IZAK ( talk) 09:52, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
It is not "offensive" to accurately describe what it is that the meshichistim do. Please refrain from WP:OR or POV apologetics by calling them "normal meshichi'im" (sic) because the meshichistim represent a huge following among a huge part of Lubavitchers including many of their rabbis. They aren't afraid of it and do not hide it, they even have a yellow flag they fly high for it too, so why make up excuses for them. This not like the Neturei Karta who are indeed a tiny part of all Charedim, unlike the Chabad meshichistim who command the respect and allegiance and following within Chabad large enough to split the movement, and even dominate it in many areas, and there is a huge ongoing struggle between the aggressive meshichistim and the more quiet ones. But none of this is "offensive" because it is common knowledge not just in Chabad but in the entire Orthodox and certainly the Haredi world. Ask Dr. Berger as you said you would, and it's not just his POV. The central idea of the meshichistim is that the last Lubavitcher Rebbe is "alive" and is not just the Moshiach but that he is the personification of God himself and that through him as the ultimate tzadik it is the main and only avenue to truly reach God and Godliness. If one does not grasp this one is lacking the entire rationale of what Chabad is all about nowadays, or ever. See a record (until January 2010) of Yehoishophot Oliver's pro-meshichist editing at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Chabad movement/Evidence#User:Yehoishophot Oliver's pro-Chabad POV editing and diffs see point 7 where he's "Defending to the hilt Chabad messianism [3], [4], [5]; diplomatically promoting the Rebbe as the Jewish messiah ("Moshiach") and removing or neutralizing as much criticism of it as possible [6], [7]." At any rate, my only concern here is that editors who openly display an affinity for such a movement should not be editing articles about rival movements and personalities without first obtaining very extensive input and consensus to ensure WP:NPOV, which is the only point I am trying to drive home here. Thanks, IZAK ( talk) 04:29, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
Yehoishophot: Openly accusing an editor in the middle of a discussion a "liar" who subscribes to "big lies" is a serious violation of WP:NPA; WP:CIVIL; WP:EQ; and WP:AGF. It is from the way you have edited that your pro-Chabad POV becomes very clear. You need to seek more input from current users before implementing your arbitrary changes to groups that are or were historical rivals to Chabad in the real world, such as Breslov, Strashelye and the Malachim and not act as the chief judge, jury and executioner and do as you please when there are serious rival views to yours, perhaps not every Judaic editor in WP can focus on it as quickly as you do, but you know full well that that is the state of affairs in the real world of those who know Chasidus and not just the Chabad brand. All I am trying to do is keep a fair balance in a few small areas, I can't do it all over you roam, to retain as much WP:NPOV as possible. The Chabad case at the ArbCom was very serious, they have been put on notice about what the potential harm Chabad editors could do were they to act as if WP is Chabad.org which it is not. IZAK ( talk) 07:10, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
What about solving the problem from the other end? Instead of categorizing everything as a Hasidic dynasty, categorize it as a Hasidut. Like Ger Hasidism, Belz Hasidism, Breslov Hasidism (which by the way has already been done on the category pages: Category:Ger Hasidism, Category:Belz Hasidism, Category:Breslov Hasidism). Yoninah ( talk) 09:12, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
(1) Looking at the concise Oxford Dictionary: Dynast: "Ruler, member of dynasty"; Dynasty: from the Greek word dunesteia for "lordship". Of course you can lawyer this to death but Breslov has retained a top hierarchy and leadership, as now Chabad does, even after the demise of either a founding or key last leader. (2) The point about starting to use "group" is that it will easily lead on a slippery slope to the pejorative term "sect". (3) My main objection to changing everything from "Dynasty" to "Hasidism" is that while the "Dynasty" articles focus primarily on the Rebbes as leaders of each Chasidus, the categories named "Hasidism" include all sorts of articles about all sorts of topics not necessarily related to the leadership of each Chasidus at all. But it does not rub me wrong the way "group" does, just that it is not accurate for a lead article about Hasidic leaders not just the abstract ideas of each Chasidus. Also, most of the "Dynasty" articles are biography laden and there is thus far not enough content to elaborate what the actual ideas and ideologies of each type of Hasidism were. Unlike Chabad, other groups are not on WP, they are actually banned by their Rebbes from the Internet as you well know, and what little information WP has obtained has been about the leadership rather than about their actual ideas and contents of their Hasidic works/books. IZAK ( talk) 04:33, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
Having read the preceding debates, (sadly predictable) conspiracy theories and all, I think a simple fact has been lost in the discussion. 'Dynasty' (in the common vernacular) is generally used to refer to a successive group of leaders from a particular family. By way of example, in American political history there is or has been; A Kennedy dynasty, a Rockefeller dynasty, and perhaps a Bush dynasty. There is no Reagan dynasty, Nixon dynasty, or Carter dynasty. Similarly when one speaks of Chasidic dynasties, Ger, Belz, Chabad, and Viznitz (among others)have clear dynastic charts. Breslov, Lizhensk, Kapust, Strashelye etc. do not. This in no way demeans or detracts from the significant history of those groups, they simply did not (for whatever reasons) spawn a chain of hasidic leaders or rebbes. A great leader does not a dynasty make. Winchester2313 ( talk) 06:16, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
What User:IZAK seems determined to ignore is that the word 'dynasty' has no connection to hasidic (or any other) groups per se, nor does it connote any judgment or valuation. There are hasidic, political, and corporate dynasties, and they all need share one thing in common for the term to be relevant - a succession or group of related leaders. Your comments about Nixon and Kennedy belie a lack of knowledge about when the term is relevant and when not. Nixon was one politician, while the Kennedys are a political dynasty. The Gerer Rebbe is part of a hasidic dynasty, while Breslov hasidut does not have one. Please refrain from your continuous accusations of Chabad-POV conspiracies etc. against anybody you suspect of a Chabad connection. There has never been any connection or strife between Breslov & Chabad, and this demeaning lack of WP:CIVIL behavior is unnecessary. Surely a point can be made on the merits without the reckless accusations. Winchester2313 ( talk) 15:19, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
I agree with what you've written here, save for the application of the term 'dynasty', which is usually used in reference to the chain of rebbes in a hasidic group, rather than the group itself. For whatever reasons, there never were more rebbes of Breslov to create a dynasty, despite the fact that Breslov as a hasidus survived and thrived. If it was up to me, all hasidic groups would be called just that, and the word 'dynasty' would only be used when describing a particular rebbe in relation to his dynastic chain. There is nothing demeaning about the word 'group'. Winchester2313 ( talk) 05:33, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
Thats exactly right. It would not be correct usage of the word to say that the Baal Shem Tov founded a dynasty - he did not. The BST founded the Chasidic movement, which then gave birth to several dynasties of various chasidic groups. Winchester2313 ( talk) 16:29, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
The point is that 'dynasty' refers to a chain (or succession) of leaders, whereas any chasidic (or other type of) group that had only one rebbe/leader cannot correctly be referred to as a 'dynasty' - at least not in the English language. Winchester2313 ( talk) 17:07, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
See similar situations at Talk:Strashelye (Hasidic dynasty)#Dynasty vs "group" and Talk:Malachim_(Hasidic_dynasty)#Dynasty_vs_.22group.22. Thank you, IZAK ( talk) 03:40, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
The talk page still says Talk:Breslov (Hasidic dynasty)
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Sefaria has a complete English translation of this text, presented in parallel to the original. It was translated by Moshe Mykoff, published by Breslov Research Institute, and released into the commons with a CC-BY-NC license, in exchange for Sefaria compensating the publisher.
I believe that a link to this would fall under section 2 of WP:ELYES.
I have a COI (I work for Sefaria). My team has discussed this COI on WikiProject:Judaism and it has been adjudicated and resolved favorably at COIN#Sefaria_requested_edits.
Links should probably be to Likutei Moharan. It could go in the external links section. Since this article has links to external texts in the body of the article, perhaps it could go there.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by LevEliezer ( talk • contribs) 15:45, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
It's not clear what changes are requested to be made, or why those changes which were mentioned in
WP:COIN and described as "resolved" where not taken care of in those forums. "Resolved" typically means no further action is required. Please advise. Also, (Please remember to
sign your posts on talk pages by typing four keyboard
tildes like this: ~~~~
. Or, you can use the
[ reply ] button, which automatically signs posts.)
Spintendo 18:28, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
...........................................................
1. The article asserts that "The movement weathered strong opposition from virtually all other Hasidic movements in Ukraine throughout the 19th century." I can't find any explanation for the opposition in the article, and I think the author should add at least 6 or 7 sentences about this.
2. Gematria is completely ridiculous and, notwithstanding Rabbi Shmuel Moshe Kramer's discussion of it (and the article's discussion of this discussion), is hardly worth mentioning. It's really just an embarrassment to the movement that it ever had a prominent role in Breslov. I've never heard prominent contemporary Breslov rabbis such as Rabbi Nasan Maimon of the Breslov World Center or Ozer Bergman use gematria (although I haven't read EVERYTHING they wrote or said on youtube). You can use it to support any statement whatever, as well as its opposite, and it ought to be laughed out of all forms of contemporary Judaism.
3. In the section of the article on "Today," the author really should try to estimate about how many Breslovers there are today in Israel, and in the US.
184.180.87.188 (
talk) 17:08, 3 May 2020 (UTC) Retraction of part of what I just wrote about Rabbi Nasan Maimon. After listening to a few more of his lectures, I realize that he does indeed frequently use gematria. But I continue to maintain, for the reasons given above, that gematria is completely ridiculous.
184.180.87.188 (
talk) 07:47, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
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The photo on this page identifies Rabbi Yisroel Ber Odesser as "The Head" of Breslov Hasidism. This is not correct. First of all, he is now deceased (died 1994). Second, there is no one "head" of Breslov Hasidism. There are several different groups of Breslov Hasidim today, with many leaders whom different Breslovers look up to for advice. This caption would better read something like, "Rabbi Yisroel Ber Odesser, a respected leader (but not the Rebbe) within Breslov Hasidism. Died 1994." I would have changed it myself but I don't know how to do captions yet. Please do so. (Posted by Rabbi Yonassan Gershom, webmaster at Hasidism.info, and a Breslover Hasid.)
Update: I figured out how to change the caption. (Rooster613 is Rabbi Gershom's ID here)
Rooster613 06:27, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)The full quote regarding Rebbe Nachman's opinion on the nature of a Tzaddik's soul is as follows. I am putting this here rather than on the page itself (where I did add the source and page ref.) because I feel it would clutter up the article to put it all there.
Nathan of Nemirov (Rebbe Nachman's personal secretary) wrote in Rabbi Nachman's Wisdom: "The Rebbe (i.e., Nachman) spoke out very strongly against those who thought that the main reason for a Tzaddik's great attainments was the high level of his soul. He insisted that this was not true, maintaining that it depends completely on good deeds (mitzvot)and effort. He was very specific in emphasizing this. He said, 'Every person can attain the highest level. It depends on nothing but your own free choice... For everything depends upon a multitude of deeds.'" (page 29) On the same page Rabbi Nathan also quotes Rebbe Nachman as saying that he was not automatically a Tzaddik because of his family background (as great-grandson of the Baal Shem Tov), but only through his own efforts and "Devoting his entire being to the service of God." User:Rooster613
Perhaps a section should be put in on the N-Na-Nach-Namchma-Nachman. http://www.wzo.org.il/en/resources/view.asp?id=1172-- PinchasC 13:56, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Excellent idea! I will gladly do it (unless somebody else does first) but probably not until after Pesach. Maybe we should also have a separate page on Rabbi Odesser (who introduced the Na-Nach-Nachma-Nachman-m'Uman chant.) I have some bio info on him, and we already have a photo here. Rooster613 01:03, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It is best that you do it, being that you seem to understand Breslov, and its customs, as opposed to somone else that will only write on what he sees and not on what really is.-- PinchasC 01:13, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It's finally done! Follow the link Na Nach Nachma to check it out. Re: use of the word mantra: I realize this is not an authentically Jewish term, but it has entered the English language, it describes the process, and there's a Wiki page on it. So it makes sense to use it here. Rooster613
The photo that was added on 21 Sept is not how the grave looks today. This picture was probably taken before 1999. Yoninah 19:51, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
This article begans with the rather emphatic declaration that "Breslov is not Breslau or Bratzlav or Bratislava." However, someone is making redirects in other articles about Breslov personalities, to the effect that any mention of the town of "Breslov" redirects to "Bratslav." On the Bratslav page it says specifically that this is the town in which Rebbe Nachman lived and taught. Could someone please clear this up? If Breslov is not Bratslav, what is it? Remember that towns in Ukraine didn't have Jewish names to start with. Yoninah 11:21, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Until now, everyone's been writing "Breslov" whether they're referring to the hasidic dynasty or to the town. I just went through all the links to this page and make sure everything links to [Breslov (Hasidic Dynasty)]. All references to the city should read: [Bratslav|Breslov]. Thank you. Yoninah 16:06, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Rabbi Yisroel Karduner, one of the 36 hidden tzadikim, and one of the main transmitters of the correct Breslov tradition, also made the mistake, upon learning about Rabbi Nachman he journied with great self sacrifice to Breslau only to learn that he wanted Breslov. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Na Nach Nachmu Nachmun ( talk • contribs) 15:51, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
The external links section is beginning to look like a posterboard for any organization or person who has "Breslov" in their title. Is this proper Wikipedia style? Yoninah 20:09, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Answering your question, first mi nick name es "Bresolver" no "Breslover", OK?. And the links are to Breslov's pages, and this are what breslov pages said. Bresolver 00:58, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Hi Bresolver: Yoninah's concerns are legitimate. Kindly familiarize yourself with Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not, and especially please read:
If you have questions, feel free to ask. IZAK 02:46, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Please, explain me why you think i put wrong links? I just put breslovers links!
Bresolver 04:15, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
The purpose of an encyclopedia is to provide factual information in a neutral, journalistic approach that we call N-POV ( Neutral Point of View). This does not mean we must list every single Breslov site on the Web. Sites that are simply promoting a particular yeshiva, radio station, book, rabbi, collections of sermons, or whatever without giving much factual info that would be useful in research ABOUT Breslov seem inappropriate to me. Some of the links added recently, such as Radio Breslov, are already linked on the link launcher, "Breslov on the Internet," hence redundant. (However, that site DOES want to list everything on the Net, so if you get listed there, your group is indirectly linked anyway.) And I do not think that sites primarily in Hebrew are useful to an English encyclopedia. I went through every outside link today and removed those that seemed inappropriate. Granted, this is my personal call, but I have put in a lot of effort trying to keep this and other Breslov pages reasonably N-POV. Rooster613 00:17, 27 February 2006 (UTC)Rooster613
"The well-known tune to Ani Maamin ("I believe") is attributed to Breslover Hasidim who sang it on their way to the gas chambers." The song is from modzitz hassidim, you can find the history here: http://www.modzitz.org/ in the part of the storys. Kol tuv (sorry for the ortography mistaques) Bresolver 21:01, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for the info. Regarding "Ani Ma'amin," I have heard form several Holocaust survivors that Breslovers popularized it in the camps. However, this would not negate the tune coming from Modzitz. Perhaps both are true? Rooster613 00:48, 27 February 2006 (UTC)Rooster613
Maybe both are true... The Breslov page is one of the worst of all the hasidic dynasties, Dont you think? 01:18, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Dear Bresolver: I appreciate your sincerity and attempts to make this a better page, but am finding it very hard to deal with your spelling errors. If every time you add something, someone else has to fix it up, you will find that your words will also be changed. Perhaps you could find an English dictionary or a friend to help you before you change the page? Thanks, Yoninah 21:34, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Okey, but i haven't a lot of time...excuse me im trying to do the better. Bresolver 04:07, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't think it is productive to make statements about which Hasidic dynasty has the worst page(s) -- this rings to much like sectarian quarresl. If a page has problems, please contribute some content, not flames. Rooster613 18:50, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
The Name is Breslev and not Breslov, breslev is a game of words "bris-lev -cincursicion of the heart" like is write on Sichot HaRan.
What is the difference? is the real name of the movement is breslev, don't care if i'm log in or not.
Logging in gives you some credibility as to who you are and what your sources of info are. Now, it is true that the spelling "Breslev" is used by at least one group in Israel, so perhaps this should be mentioned as an alternative spelling and disambiguated. However, In the English language, the spelling "Breslov" is the one most commonly used by Breslover Hasidim. (The difference may well be one of regional accents -- Ashkenazi vs Sephardic or some such, since only one vowel change is in dispute.) Breslov is also the spelling used by the Breslov Research Institute (for which, perhaps, we should have a page?) -- a major publisher of Breslov materials in English. Rooster613 18:57, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
The name, according to Rabbi Nachman and Rabbi Natan, is Breslev. In all the sefarim Rabbi Natan printed it as Breslev, with two segols. מספר רבי נתן: "עוד שמעתי שפעם אחת סמוך לכניסתו לברסלב מזגו לו כוס יין לקידוש ונשפך על הארץ ומזגו לו כוס אחר וקידש עליו. ואחר כך אמר: היום נטענו שם: ברסלביר חסידים. ושם זה לא ישתקע לעולם, כי לעולם יהיו אנשי שלומנו נקראים על שם עיר ברסלב" (חיי מוהר"ן קט"ו) למה דווקא בברסלב ניטע השם הזה? "דאיתא במדרש על פסוק "ונתתי לכם לב בשר", אל תקרי בשר אלא בוסר, שיהיה כל אחד בוסר בחלק של חברו. לב בסר אותיות ברסלב". (חיי מוהר"ן של"ט) Rabbi Natan writes: I also heard that around the time he entered Breslev [two segols here, as in all other instances] they poured him a cup of wine for Kidush and it got spilled on the ground and they poured him another cup and he made kidush on it. Afterwards he [Rabi Nachman] said 'Today we have planted the name "Breslever Chasidim." And this name shall never fade, for our people shall always be called after the name of the city Breslev (Chayey Moharan 115). Why was this name specifically planted in Breslev? Because it is brought in the Midrash regarding the verse "And I will give you a heart of flesh (lev basar)" (Eze. 36:26) -- do not read it basar/flesh, but boser (cholem tzeireh), for everyone will be "boser b'chelek shel chavero"/rejoicing in the good fortune of his friend [Yalk. Gen. 61]. "Lev basar" is the letters of Breslev. (Chayey Moharan 139) Accordingly, I think everything should be changed to Breslev and not Breslov. Nissimnanach ( talk) 06:26, 13 April 2010 (UTC)Nissimnanach
Rabbi Schick- Yavniel branch of breslov should be addressed as well...
Famous curse: there is a story that when Joseph Kennedy just before WWII used his influence as the U.S. Ambassador to the UK to prevent Jews in German held territories being granted visas (and safety) to the US, the Rebbe cursed him and his entire family for his actions - many believe that the problems of the family (down to the drunk driving accident of Patrick Kennedy) all date to that curse - does anyone want to place that in the story?
Incorrect
whoops, your're correct, I just checked, the story involves the Belz'e Rebbe, I've posted the above there. Thanks. Incorrect 02:04, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
As the article states correctly, this article is about the Breslov movement or branch of chasidus. It cannot be about the Breslov (Hasidic dynasty) for the simple reason that Reb Nachman had no successor and therefore did not start a dynasty. In the interests of accuracy, can we move the article to "Breslov"?-- Redaktor 20:58, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
It's somewhat, kinda accurate. If you take dynasty to mean a passing of something down a chain of successors rather than as a herditary thing. (Which admittadly is more accurate.) Plus, you could just surrender to the fact that "dynasty" has come to be the English word for a Chasidic sect. Shia1 13:55, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
But there is no chain of succession, as there has been no rebbe in Breslov since Rabbi Nachman. And I do not accept that 'dynasty' is the English word for a chasidic 'sect'.-- Redaktor 21:11, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm with Redaktor. What is this "Dynasty" business?! Everyone knows very clearly there was no successor, even Rabbi Natan never took any kind of Rebbehood, Moha-keit/Moho-keit, Admor-ship etc.! Nissimnanach ( talk) 06:35, 13 April 2010 (UTC)Nissimnanach
This statement, "Its Hasidim see Torah life as the means to a joyful existence," is not accurate. The wording should be reversed to, "Breslov Hasidis sees a joyful existence as the means to living a Torah life." Rebbe Nachman never said doing mitzvahs will make you happy, he said being happy will help you do mitzvahs, and is a mitzvah in and of itself which a person is obligated to keep regardless of how he feels. Also it should be pointed out that the definition of joy is different from the Western definition. Shia1 13:52, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
This is not fine, although Shia1 has made a valid statement that Rabbi Nachman taught that it is a mitzva to be happy and this will help one do the mitzvos, and do the mitzvos in the most proper way, Rabbi Nachman taught MANY times that doing mitzvos brings happiness, often quoting the verse in Psalms "Pikuday Hashem Yishurim Misamchay Lev" - "the commandmends of G-d are just they bring Joy to the heart". For correct understanding of Rabbi Nachman and the practices of Breslov one should visit nanach.net. Na Nach Nachmu Nachmun ( talk) 17:49, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
It is written in the article that Breslovers have a mantra during Hitbodedut. This is not true. Hitbodedut by definition is spontaneous, individual prayer. R' Nachman never used a mantra himself.
It may be that the confusion came from what R' Nachman taught that even if one has nothing to say by Hitbodedut besides to call out Ribono shel Okam, that's also good.
There is no mantra, and there is no emphasis on the "oy" syllable. Breslovers may say oy during hisbodedus in order to express their broken-heartedness, but not as part of "riboynoy shel oylam" or some joke like that. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Madisonriver9 (
talk •
contribs) 22:54, 27 November 2008 (UTC) Well put, I have expounded on this in the next section entitled Mantra. For further reference visit nanach.net.
Na Nach Nachmu Nachmun (
talk) 17:49, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
The article says that Rabbi Nachman and his followers make use of a mantra. This is a big fallacy started I believe by the late Rabbi Arye Kaplan OB"M, although a tremendous scholar who did priceless work for Judiasm his bias for the esoteric led him to deviant interpretations. Rabbi Nachman taught the importance of secluding oneself with G-d and engaging Him in conversation. Primarily one should be trying to speak about new topics and ideas (Likutay Eitzos; Hisbodidus 2), however since this is a very high and hard level and more often most people can't even open their mouths to say anything, Rabbi Nachman advised and encouraged people to stubbornly stick to whatever it is they could say. If there was one request they had that they were able to verbalize, they should repeat it over and over until they would be able to come up with something else. And if one could not even mouth one complete request, then emitting the entreaty and call of longing, "Master of the World" would have to suffice and should be said over and over again until one could advance further. Sometimes people can't even open up at all, Rabbi Nachman said even still they should be stubborn sitting silently in front of G-d, eventually maybe only after years the person will break through. R. Arye Kaplan got very excited by the part about saying one thing over and over again because that's like a mantra! But anyone who sees it in context can see clearly that the intent was nothing to do with a mantra, I am not denying that a person heeding this particular advice of Rabbi Nachman might benefit as people can from a mantra, however that was not the purpose or the focus of the task advised by Rabbi Nachman. Not that this needs any further proof, rather to further the development of this discussion, I refer to Rabbi Nussun bragging about his prize student R' Moshe Breslevor (from whom the Nanach have the unique and strongest tradition of the ways of Rabbi Nachman of Breslov - see nanach.net), who was able to say "Master of the World" 500 times in succession. This is a paltry number for someone attempting to reach higher consciousness by mean of mantra. However for a person experiencing estrangement from G-d, and even still musters the courage to seek out and call out to G-d, 500 times that is definitely something to brag about.
The article then continues to discuss the true chant and song of the Breslover Chasidim: Na Nach Nachmu Nachman MayUman! This maybe in fact considered a mantra, if one would include songs of spirit, extisy, devotion, and supernal binding as a mantra. Just as the Arizal commanded his prize student, Rabbi Chaim Vital, to call out Akiva Akiva 10 before every prayer so that he would bind his soul to the soul of the Tanaic Sage and Martyr Rabbi Akiva, so and much much greater do those who pronounce this holy song Na Nach Nachmu Nachman MayUman - bind themselves to the holy soul of Rabbi Nachman of Breslov! Even if the article discriminates against the Nanach, it is clear that it is the Nanach that are binding themselves all the time to Rabbi Nachman and thus are clearly the strongest to be associated to Rabbi Nachman!
Anyone who would like to understand and better yet, taste, real Breslov Chasidus, the Real Rabbi Nachman of Breslov, should visit nanach.net. Na Nach Nachmu Nachmun ( talk) 17:40, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
call 718 855 2121 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Emes5767 ( talk • contribs) 13:30, 8 January 2009 (UTC) one should avoid the lectures of people who are just looking for honor and money. even when Rabbi Nachman was living he expected people to build their own personality and character and make their own decisions, and Rabbi Nachman avoided telling people out right what to do, and sometimes even expected people to disagree with what he told them (as in the famous story when he told Rabbi Nussun to become a Rabbi....). Much of Rabbi Nachman's teachings are available in English (from the original, without mutations, just mistakes that are always unavoidable), for FREE download at nanach.org. You can also correspond with live followers of Rabbi Nachman at nanach.net. This is the true way of Rabbi Nachman. Na Nach Nachmu Nachmun ( talk) 15:45, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Rosh_Hashana_kibbutz_(Breslov)
What is the correct spelling in English — Breslov or Breslev? Google actually give smore results on the latter one. And there are many hassidic sites that use Breslev, not Breslov. I am Russian and cannot think of a grammar rule or a similar case that would allow to interchange these two. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mizanthrop ( talk • contribs) 12:11, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
The reference in Chayey Moharan 339 explains Breslev in relation to a verse about lev basar/heart of flesh. Then it refers to a midrash that talks about a "lev boser bchelko shel chavero"/a heart rejoicing in the good fortune of his friend. As you know Breslev is about the lev/heart. See also above for fuller citations and more discussion. Nissimnanach ( talk) 06:43, 13 April 2010 (UTC)Nissimnanach
A recent move was made by User Yehoishophot Oliver ( talk · contribs) to downgrade this group from "dynasty" to "group". The one making these changes did so from a pro-Chabad POV that views Breslov as their rivals. The name "Dynasty" is a generic name for all the Hasidic "groups" on WP since for a long time now, it has been standard procedure not to use the label "sect" because it is demeaning, likewise "group" sounds common-place and not far off from "sect". A "dynasty" denotes a "group" too, even if the seat of power is not held by a direct family member, the "monarchical" and dynastic nature of such Hasidic movements stay intact through each generation that rules in the name of both living and dead rebbes. Such is even the case now in Chabad where the "dynasty" continues even though there has been no succession and no single rabbi has been appointed to the "throne" in the present, yet the movement bases itself on the authority of its last deceased leader. Category:Hasidic dynasties makes clear that this naming convention has been the universally accepted naming convention on WP for many years and changes should not be made without seeking very wide and extensive input. Thank you, IZAK ( talk) 09:52, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
It is not "offensive" to accurately describe what it is that the meshichistim do. Please refrain from WP:OR or POV apologetics by calling them "normal meshichi'im" (sic) because the meshichistim represent a huge following among a huge part of Lubavitchers including many of their rabbis. They aren't afraid of it and do not hide it, they even have a yellow flag they fly high for it too, so why make up excuses for them. This not like the Neturei Karta who are indeed a tiny part of all Charedim, unlike the Chabad meshichistim who command the respect and allegiance and following within Chabad large enough to split the movement, and even dominate it in many areas, and there is a huge ongoing struggle between the aggressive meshichistim and the more quiet ones. But none of this is "offensive" because it is common knowledge not just in Chabad but in the entire Orthodox and certainly the Haredi world. Ask Dr. Berger as you said you would, and it's not just his POV. The central idea of the meshichistim is that the last Lubavitcher Rebbe is "alive" and is not just the Moshiach but that he is the personification of God himself and that through him as the ultimate tzadik it is the main and only avenue to truly reach God and Godliness. If one does not grasp this one is lacking the entire rationale of what Chabad is all about nowadays, or ever. See a record (until January 2010) of Yehoishophot Oliver's pro-meshichist editing at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Chabad movement/Evidence#User:Yehoishophot Oliver's pro-Chabad POV editing and diffs see point 7 where he's "Defending to the hilt Chabad messianism [3], [4], [5]; diplomatically promoting the Rebbe as the Jewish messiah ("Moshiach") and removing or neutralizing as much criticism of it as possible [6], [7]." At any rate, my only concern here is that editors who openly display an affinity for such a movement should not be editing articles about rival movements and personalities without first obtaining very extensive input and consensus to ensure WP:NPOV, which is the only point I am trying to drive home here. Thanks, IZAK ( talk) 04:29, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
Yehoishophot: Openly accusing an editor in the middle of a discussion a "liar" who subscribes to "big lies" is a serious violation of WP:NPA; WP:CIVIL; WP:EQ; and WP:AGF. It is from the way you have edited that your pro-Chabad POV becomes very clear. You need to seek more input from current users before implementing your arbitrary changes to groups that are or were historical rivals to Chabad in the real world, such as Breslov, Strashelye and the Malachim and not act as the chief judge, jury and executioner and do as you please when there are serious rival views to yours, perhaps not every Judaic editor in WP can focus on it as quickly as you do, but you know full well that that is the state of affairs in the real world of those who know Chasidus and not just the Chabad brand. All I am trying to do is keep a fair balance in a few small areas, I can't do it all over you roam, to retain as much WP:NPOV as possible. The Chabad case at the ArbCom was very serious, they have been put on notice about what the potential harm Chabad editors could do were they to act as if WP is Chabad.org which it is not. IZAK ( talk) 07:10, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
What about solving the problem from the other end? Instead of categorizing everything as a Hasidic dynasty, categorize it as a Hasidut. Like Ger Hasidism, Belz Hasidism, Breslov Hasidism (which by the way has already been done on the category pages: Category:Ger Hasidism, Category:Belz Hasidism, Category:Breslov Hasidism). Yoninah ( talk) 09:12, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
(1) Looking at the concise Oxford Dictionary: Dynast: "Ruler, member of dynasty"; Dynasty: from the Greek word dunesteia for "lordship". Of course you can lawyer this to death but Breslov has retained a top hierarchy and leadership, as now Chabad does, even after the demise of either a founding or key last leader. (2) The point about starting to use "group" is that it will easily lead on a slippery slope to the pejorative term "sect". (3) My main objection to changing everything from "Dynasty" to "Hasidism" is that while the "Dynasty" articles focus primarily on the Rebbes as leaders of each Chasidus, the categories named "Hasidism" include all sorts of articles about all sorts of topics not necessarily related to the leadership of each Chasidus at all. But it does not rub me wrong the way "group" does, just that it is not accurate for a lead article about Hasidic leaders not just the abstract ideas of each Chasidus. Also, most of the "Dynasty" articles are biography laden and there is thus far not enough content to elaborate what the actual ideas and ideologies of each type of Hasidism were. Unlike Chabad, other groups are not on WP, they are actually banned by their Rebbes from the Internet as you well know, and what little information WP has obtained has been about the leadership rather than about their actual ideas and contents of their Hasidic works/books. IZAK ( talk) 04:33, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
Having read the preceding debates, (sadly predictable) conspiracy theories and all, I think a simple fact has been lost in the discussion. 'Dynasty' (in the common vernacular) is generally used to refer to a successive group of leaders from a particular family. By way of example, in American political history there is or has been; A Kennedy dynasty, a Rockefeller dynasty, and perhaps a Bush dynasty. There is no Reagan dynasty, Nixon dynasty, or Carter dynasty. Similarly when one speaks of Chasidic dynasties, Ger, Belz, Chabad, and Viznitz (among others)have clear dynastic charts. Breslov, Lizhensk, Kapust, Strashelye etc. do not. This in no way demeans or detracts from the significant history of those groups, they simply did not (for whatever reasons) spawn a chain of hasidic leaders or rebbes. A great leader does not a dynasty make. Winchester2313 ( talk) 06:16, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
What User:IZAK seems determined to ignore is that the word 'dynasty' has no connection to hasidic (or any other) groups per se, nor does it connote any judgment or valuation. There are hasidic, political, and corporate dynasties, and they all need share one thing in common for the term to be relevant - a succession or group of related leaders. Your comments about Nixon and Kennedy belie a lack of knowledge about when the term is relevant and when not. Nixon was one politician, while the Kennedys are a political dynasty. The Gerer Rebbe is part of a hasidic dynasty, while Breslov hasidut does not have one. Please refrain from your continuous accusations of Chabad-POV conspiracies etc. against anybody you suspect of a Chabad connection. There has never been any connection or strife between Breslov & Chabad, and this demeaning lack of WP:CIVIL behavior is unnecessary. Surely a point can be made on the merits without the reckless accusations. Winchester2313 ( talk) 15:19, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
I agree with what you've written here, save for the application of the term 'dynasty', which is usually used in reference to the chain of rebbes in a hasidic group, rather than the group itself. For whatever reasons, there never were more rebbes of Breslov to create a dynasty, despite the fact that Breslov as a hasidus survived and thrived. If it was up to me, all hasidic groups would be called just that, and the word 'dynasty' would only be used when describing a particular rebbe in relation to his dynastic chain. There is nothing demeaning about the word 'group'. Winchester2313 ( talk) 05:33, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
Thats exactly right. It would not be correct usage of the word to say that the Baal Shem Tov founded a dynasty - he did not. The BST founded the Chasidic movement, which then gave birth to several dynasties of various chasidic groups. Winchester2313 ( talk) 16:29, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
The point is that 'dynasty' refers to a chain (or succession) of leaders, whereas any chasidic (or other type of) group that had only one rebbe/leader cannot correctly be referred to as a 'dynasty' - at least not in the English language. Winchester2313 ( talk) 17:07, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
See similar situations at Talk:Strashelye (Hasidic dynasty)#Dynasty vs "group" and Talk:Malachim_(Hasidic_dynasty)#Dynasty_vs_.22group.22. Thank you, IZAK ( talk) 03:40, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
The talk page still says Talk:Breslov (Hasidic dynasty)
אֶפְרָתָה ( talk) 22:11, 22 December 2010 (UTC)אֶפְרָתָה
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This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered. |
Sefaria has a complete English translation of this text, presented in parallel to the original. It was translated by Moshe Mykoff, published by Breslov Research Institute, and released into the commons with a CC-BY-NC license, in exchange for Sefaria compensating the publisher.
I believe that a link to this would fall under section 2 of WP:ELYES.
I have a COI (I work for Sefaria). My team has discussed this COI on WikiProject:Judaism and it has been adjudicated and resolved favorably at COIN#Sefaria_requested_edits.
Links should probably be to Likutei Moharan. It could go in the external links section. Since this article has links to external texts in the body of the article, perhaps it could go there.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by LevEliezer ( talk • contribs) 15:45, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
It's not clear what changes are requested to be made, or why those changes which were mentioned in
WP:COIN and described as "resolved" where not taken care of in those forums. "Resolved" typically means no further action is required. Please advise. Also, (Please remember to
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Spintendo 18:28, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
...........................................................
1. The article asserts that "The movement weathered strong opposition from virtually all other Hasidic movements in Ukraine throughout the 19th century." I can't find any explanation for the opposition in the article, and I think the author should add at least 6 or 7 sentences about this.
2. Gematria is completely ridiculous and, notwithstanding Rabbi Shmuel Moshe Kramer's discussion of it (and the article's discussion of this discussion), is hardly worth mentioning. It's really just an embarrassment to the movement that it ever had a prominent role in Breslov. I've never heard prominent contemporary Breslov rabbis such as Rabbi Nasan Maimon of the Breslov World Center or Ozer Bergman use gematria (although I haven't read EVERYTHING they wrote or said on youtube). You can use it to support any statement whatever, as well as its opposite, and it ought to be laughed out of all forms of contemporary Judaism.
3. In the section of the article on "Today," the author really should try to estimate about how many Breslovers there are today in Israel, and in the US.
184.180.87.188 (
talk) 17:08, 3 May 2020 (UTC) Retraction of part of what I just wrote about Rabbi Nasan Maimon. After listening to a few more of his lectures, I realize that he does indeed frequently use gematria. But I continue to maintain, for the reasons given above, that gematria is completely ridiculous.
184.180.87.188 (
talk) 07:47, 16 June 2020 (UTC)