This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
I removed the time period for the commencement of lactation in males and non-pregnant women. As far as I've researched and heard, the time frame varies widely from person to person and also depends on the amount of stimulation the nipples receive. Joele Gilbert
The following seems unlikely, or a non sequitur, or something. Surely human milk has been analyzed.
Have you seen the dreadful things said about wet nurses over in the Infanticide article?
Ortolan88 21:52 Jul 29, 2002 (PDT)
Human milk has been analysed to the extreme. It's not that we don't know a lot of what is in breast milk; it's that we keep discovering more and more ingredients. For one thing, breast milk is a living food; so it more than an issue of what the nutrient list is, it is a matter of cells interacting with cells. We just don't really understand everything about breast milk that makes it the best for a baby. We just know that it is impossible to duplicate by artificial means. I'm not a medical expert (just a mom who is interested), so I'll try to find a more technical explanation.
As for infanticide article... yikes!
Joele, I changed "the exact content of breast milk is unknown" to "the exact interactive properties of breast milk are unknown" because I think this is more what you are getting at. I also removed marijuana from your list of potential dangers, because there is NO documented suggestion that this is the case. I think it shows bias to include marijuana just because it is illegal ... it's very different from caffeine or crack.
Sara Parks Ricker
A comment on the image: I like it. It's very clinical and informative. I only have one minor criticism: it is a bit low-res. Is there a chance of getting a slightly higher resolution image? On the current image, some of the labels are almost unreadable. The ones that are discernable are very muddled. — Frecklefoot 13:48 13 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I'll try and find a better copy, but I got this from the fda's website, and I don't know if they have a higher res one. I tried making it bigger, but of course it just looked worse. MB 14:12 13 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I think the article needs some discussion of breastfeeding in public. I'm not sure about other countries but in the UK it is illegal to stop a woman from breastfeeding publicly. In the Royal College of Midwifery journal (August 2004) there is an article about The National Gallery in London admitting a mistake after banning a breastfeeding mother from one of its exhibition rooms. violet/riga 09:11, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I'll leave the details to the expert authors, but I couldn't see any reference to the letdown reflex, and how in many women it triggers an immediate thirst. Dunstan 10:44, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Circumcision disrupts
breastfeeding.
Circumcision is very painful.
Circumcision causes a huge spike in
stress-
hormones.
Circumcision drives
infants into
catatonic states. Needless to state,
circumcision disrupts
breastfeeding If anyone doubts this, they can run a search. Expectant mothers should consider this before cutting off pieces of their babies, if they plan to breastfeed. I believe that we should have one informative link about this subject.
Ŭalabio 05:29, 2004 Sep 23 (UTC)
I met Tina Kimmel in meatspace. She explained what I did not understand (which is most of the subject). Basically, this is it:
Tina Kimmel stated that La Leche League International refuses to condemn sexual mutilation because of the objection of a few religiously motivated women in the leadership.
I take full responsibility for errors (this is all from memory). You may write to Tina Kimmel thus:
"Tinna Kimmel " < Tinakimmel @T Motherlove . D . O . T . Org >
The address is spamproofed. Some assembly required.
Ŭalabio 03:27, 2004 Oct 18 (UTC)
I suggest that until you have some scientifically proven evidence to present you desist from pushing your POV anti-circumcision agenda in this regard. It should be clear that parents who choose to circumcise their sons should insist on the use of the best pain relief available, both during and post the procedure. Your scare tactic only works where pain relief is not used. The more people begin to insist on its use the less your scare tactic will work. - Robert the Bruce 05:33, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The sentence seems kinda added on and out of place. Does a topic like circumcision really need a whole subtopic in breast feeding? It should be integrated or eliminated instead of added as an addendum. 04:51, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I have now integrated the topic as a reason for Breast Refusal which is where it should of been in the first place.
No criticism is intended in the article, but then again one cannot hide scientific knowledge and research. Effects of circumcision are related to breastfeeding in some people's minds, and not in others. There is no reason both views cannot be respected. Are we to add breastfeeding information to the circumcision article to appease the puritanical anti-sexual POV? Please remember that circumcision is not medically-indicated surgery to treat disease or injury, so blur that line deliberately is POV. I believe this can be presented in some neutral way. DanP 18:36, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
DanP had added back a paragraph on circumcision three times to the section on maternal bonding. I think the most recent version is the best:
However, given that the section on maternal bonding is about the benefits of breastfeeding for bonding, not vice versa, and that the effects of surgery, such as circumcision, on breastfeeding is already mentioned in the section on breast refusal, I don't think this is necessary and have removed it twice ( Theresa knott did once too). If pushed, I guess I could live with:
However, I still don't think this is really required either. Anyone else have views? -- ALoan (Talk) 19:08, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
(EDIT CONFLICT) Talking to Dan, I don't understand your question. If circumcision causes pain, and this affects feeding then by all means add that fact to the circumcision article. But it's off topic here. This article is about breast feeding. You can't just go down the cirp list and say to yourself "Oh look this article is about breastfeeding, I'll stick on wikipedia's breastfeeding page, this articles about sexual intercourse, I'll stick it on wikipedias sexual intercourse page, this ones about infant circumcision i'll stick it on Wikipedia's infant page. You said above "Please remember that circumcision is not medically-indicated surgery to treat disease or injury" Now what on earth has that got to do with breastfeeding? Theresa Knott (Not the skater) 19:18, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
(drop indent)
There should be some mention of circumcision - it is a common procedure (yes, procedure) that does cause problems for breastfeeding women. Problems it causes for maternal bonding should be mentioned in the maternal bond article. It is fine as a point in the breast refusal section, as far as I am concerned. violet/riga (t) 21:11, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
DanP --
You still haven't responded to my two questions above - I don't see why this article on breastfeeding should mention the detrimental effects (if any) of circumcision on maternal bonding, rather than those effects being mentioned in the article on maternal bonding, and you have not suggested any language to change the reference to surgery (including circumcision) - for what it is worth, I still think circumcision is a form of surgery. -- ALoan (Talk) 18:23, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
ALoan, you make several good points. The POV slant is not exactly what you say, but is this:
I believe the line on breast refusal could be changed from "Discomfort, possibly due to recent surgery or medical procedures (for example, circumcision)" to "Pain, possibly due to surgery or circumcision procedures" which leaves the judgement of medical necessity in neutral territory.
I don't think it's hard to put this in NPOV format in the bonding section. "Some people believe breastfeeding and bonding is impacted negatively by the choice of circumcising a child, and research supports this. Circumcision is common in the United States, and parents should take this into consideration before making this decision." Any objections? DanP 19:18, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Circumcision and the affect it has should be mentioned in the circumcision article. It does not have a significant enough affect on breastfeeding (when compared to bottle feeding) that warrants greater mention than there already is. The affect it has on the maternal bond should be mentioned further in other articles, yes, but not here. Sorry but I feel that objections to these changes have been made clear enough now and I don't see any need for them to go ahead. violet/riga (t) 19:56, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
As someone who is strongly opposed to non-therapeutic circumcision of children I agree with ALoan and violet/riga regarding DanP's comments. Circumcision is already mentioned in the breast refusal section of the article in an appropriate way. The controversy over whether circumcision should be called "surgery" or "permanent body modification" belongs in the circumcision article, not the breastfeeding article. Health care professionals and society in general view circumcision as surgery. -- DanBlackham 20:40, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Almost by definition, a fact cannot start with the words "it is better that". That is a matter of degree and opinion. "Better" is a comparison and an opinion. Whether it is opinion backed by the AAP, Congress, or all of humanity, it is still opinion. Saying "no pedia should pander to them" is simply POV -- how can it not be? NPOV is to state both sides without claiming one is right. If the article says it is a fact that alcohol/tobbacco causes some problems, that is fine with me. But to judge the act as "harmful" is not magically more justfiable than judging the signature of consent to leave a boy scarred and it's impact on breastfeeding (bottle feeding is easier, so please don't blur them together with regard to bonding). I respect your opinion and mostly agree with it, but this is an encyclopedia. I guess we now have opinionpedia. DanP 21:29, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Well, whatever violet/riga says here, the article says "Breastfeeding can be harmful to the infant if the mother ... uses potentially harmful substances such as caffeine, tobacco, alcohol, cocaine, heroin and amphetamines" (emphasis added) - surely you can agree that (i) caffeine, tobacco, alcohol, cocaine, heroin and amphetamines are potentially harmful and (ii) they can be harmful to a breastfed infant if used by the nursing mother? -- ALoan (Talk) 21:26, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I wrote to " Tina Kimmel " < Tina @T Motherlove . Org > who referred me to " Amber Craig " < Ambercraig @T Nc . Rr . Com > who referred me to " Norm Cohen " < NormCohen @T NOCIRCofMI . org > who sent me this:
October 2004
Suffering at the Breast is Not Best
La Leche League Censors While Mothers and Sons Suffer
To La Leche League Board of Directors, Staff, Leaders, Members, and Alumnae:
In a shocking display of mixing with religious causes, La Leche League’s Board of Directors has let a small group of women defeat the free exchange of information on circumcision’s negative impact on breastfeeding success.
In April of 2003, NOCIRC signed a contract with La Leche League International as an exhibitor and paid for exhibit space for their international conference held in July 2003. Shortly before the event, the board of directors vetoed our admission as exhibitors. Word of our attendance had spread to a minority of Jewish women in the organization who objected to our very presence.
NOCIRC has exhibited successfully at literally hundreds of conferences locally, regionally, and nationally. We are asked back year after year. Without religious prejudice, we provide information about the traumatic effects of circumcision. We hand out our information pamphlets in a non-confrontational manner to those who approach our table because they are interested in learning about the issue. Each year, we have a well-received exhibit booth for physicians attending the American Academy of Pediatrics national conference.
NOCIRC already counts among its supporters hundreds of LLL members and former members. The silent majority of leaders within League are already on our side. Attendees who were interested would have appreciated our information; those who were not interested would have just walked on by.
The vast majority of boys who are circumcised in the United States are not sons of Jewish or Muslim parents. Preventing these non-religious circumcisions has always been the primary focus for NOCIRC. This painful surgery, the most common procedure that baby boys are forced to experience, puts breastfeeding success at risk. Good chest-to-chest positioning requires mom to press her son’s wounded penis up against her body, and the pain makes him unable or unwilling to nurse.
La Leche League reported problems with breastfeeding by circumcised infants in their 1981 edition of The Womanly Art of Breastfeeding. In 1996, LLL ratified the Mother-Friendly Childbirth Initiative, along with 25 other organizations. The organization accepted ten basic principles for mother-friendly care, including the requirement that service providers must “discourage non-religious circumcision of the newborn.” (on-line at [8]).
The breastfeeding relationship does not begin in a vacuum. In 2002, NOCIRC issued its position statement, “The Effects of Circumcision on Breastfeeding,” available at [9]. Researchers have found that some male babies are unable to suckle the mother’s breast after circumcision. The circumcised infant is in pain and is in an exhausted, weakened, and debilitated condition. The circumcision procedure frequently causes the newborn to withdraw from his environment, interfering with his process of bonding and breastfeeding.
La Leche League claims it is a non-sectarian organization. However, when it comes to circumcision, it is a religious organization. A few powerful members are keeping clinical data regarding breastfeeding obstacles out of the hands of all members in order to further their personal religious viewpoint. For six years now they have systematically excluded NOCIRC from simply having a table at their area and national conferences.
The Board of Directors has placed a higher priority on protecting religious circumcision than on breastfeeding success for the 94% of non-Jewish, non-Muslim moms. Jewish boys have seven days to establish breastfeeding before undergoing surgery; non-Jewish boys do not because they are circumcised at birth, and thus they are at a greater risk.
The Board’s action is hypocritical in light of LLL’s own struggle with those who block the promotion of breastfeeding benefits for fear of upsetting parents. LLL has itself been accused of producing guilt when they describe the advantages of breastfeeding in much the same way that NOCIRC is now being accused by LLL.
LLL has an obligation to its members to make available information on how circumcision affects breastfeeding. New and expectant moms need this information ASAP in order to nurture a successful breastfeeding relationship with their sons. NOCIRC can help to insure that this happens.
NOCIRC is not asking for an endorsement from LLL nor are we asking for leaders to discuss circumcision during meetings. We are simply asking to be one of the many outside organizations and merchants not directly involved in breastfeeding that exhibit each year at their excellent conferences.
Are you surprised by the League’s lack of courage on this issue? If so, then write to the board at [10]. Demand that they stop this petty censorship and trust conference attendees to make their own informed choice about circumcision. On behalf of babies yet to be born and parents yet to be educated, demand that they take the moral high road and let NOCIRC be a participant in breastfeeding success.
On behalf of all the children, thanks!
"Norm Cohen"
Director
NOCIRC of Michigan
< NormCohen @T NOCIRCofMI . org >
(248) 642-5703
Original document was plain text. Links wikified. Email-addresses spam-proofed.
Ŭalabio 07:19, 2004 Nov 8 (UTC)
"There is also a small statistical correlation between the Hepatitis B vaccination given at birth and difficulty establishing breastfeeding. This difficulty is manifested as a slight delay in the ability of the baby to correctly establishing feeding, so the immediate administration of the Hepatitis B vaccine is usually recommended."
Removed the above until an external link or the statistical evidance can be added. violet/riga (t) 07:18, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
A naive male writes: I'm told that ovulation ceases while a woman is actively breastfeeding. Presumably an evolutionary reason for this would be to ensure that an infant was properly weaned before its mother gave birth to another child, but the article mentions that a woman can breastfeed children of different ages. Is there any truth in what I was told? Don't worry - I'm not so naive that I'd want to rely on it as a form of birth control!! :-) Adambisset 00:54, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for the information Adambisset 12:59, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC) :-)
Now this article is in excess of 41k I think it needs breaking down a little. I'm thinking of creating a Benefits, contraindications and complications of breastfeeding article to take those two large sections out, but the article name is hardly great. The other idea was for a History of breastfeeding article, but I think the content works well in this one and the former idea is better. So, can anyone think of a better article title than that first one? Or another way of splitting this, perhaps.
I have read some articles discussing the sexual arousal sometimes associated with breastfeeding, and discussed it with my wife, and am surprised to see nothing here on this topic. Are there any objections to my writing it up here, despite my constitutional lack of experience? Haiduc 03:43, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Is it necessary to introduce a bottle to a baby? SOme people say that a bottle should be introduced by 6 weeks or the baby will never take one. If the mother became ill when the baby was older and a bottle became necessary, would the child not take it? This seems ludicrous to me.-- Westendgirl 06:03, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This article appears to have a bias against breastfeeding, ignoring evidence-based medicine. Also, many good-faith recent edits attempting to neutralize some of the bias have been removed with no explanation. I'd like my suggestion that this page be up for discussion of its neutrality to at least be discussed and not summarily dismissed as vandalism. Suggested reading: http://www.het.brown.edu/people/kjp/stuff/watch_your_language.htm
Statements from the article that subtly or not-so-subtly make breastfeeding seem difficult and impossible to achieve. See below. Reading these make it seem like in order to breastfeed, a mother must eat a perfect diet, be serenely relaxed, be prepared for embarassing leakage, expect problems with her partner, experience excrutiating pain, and even harm her infant.
"The thought of nursing or the sound of any baby can stimulate the process, causing unexpected leakage." (caution! you might leak! how embarassing!)
"Commonly both breasts can give out milk when one infant is feeding, but this and other problems often settle after two weeks of feeding." exactly what problem are you talking about here?
"One major cause of difficulties during breastfeeding is when the mother is in a stressed or anxious state of mind." (proof? why not blame the mother for not being relaxed enough.)
"While some partners may feel left out when the mother is feeding the baby," not sure why this is in an enclopedia article, sounds more like a marital problem, and a weaselly one at that
"Breastfeeding, possibly alongside birth-related health problems, takes a lot of time." -- nothing to do with BFing. Same situation applies for formula feeding.
"This may add pressure to the partner and the family, with them having to work harder, caring for the mother and performing tasks she would otherwise do. " again weaselly and hardly reference material fodder
"If looking after the child while the mother is away, the father may find it impractical or inappropriate to feed expressed breast milk to the infant. This may remove the choice of the mother of whether to breastfeed her child or not." huh? impractical or inappropriate in what way? nothing to do with BFing. Same situation applies for formula feeding.
"It is not uncommon for a mother and child to have difficulties breastfeeding, with some women unable to feed their child at all." put this in the complications section
"Others find it too problematic or choose not to attempt or continue breastfeeding for personal reasons." maybe there should be a "choosing to breastfeed" section?
(The contraindications and complications section should be separated. Mixing the two makes things like masitis seem like a contraindication.)
"Negative effects upon the infant Breastfeeding can be harmful to the infant if the mother:" (we need proof for this -- harmful how? is it more harmful to receive formula, or to received breastmilk with medication in it???? need clear proof of harm before this is stated)
"is taking certain medications which may be passed onto the child through the milk and are found to be harmful. However, the vast majority of medications are compatible with breastfeeding. has had excessive exposure to heavy metals such as mercury" (again proof?)
"If the baby is large and grows quickly, the fat stores gained by the mother during pregnancy can be quickly depleted, and she may have trouble eating well enough to keep developing sufficient milk." proof?
"The diet usually involves a high calorie, high nutrition diet which follows on from that in pregnancy. " proof?
"Breastfeeding mothers must use caution if they regularly consume nicotine through tobacco smoking. In addition to reducing the milk supply, heavy use of cigarettes by the mother (more than 20 per day) has been shown to cause vomiting, diarrhea, rapid heart rate, and restlessness in breastfeeding infants. Research is ongoing to determine whether the benefits of breastfeeding out-weigh the potential harm of nicotine in breast milk. "(Actually, we need to know whether nicotine in breastmilk is more risky than formula since that is what is subtly being recommended here)
"One criticism of breastfeeding is the difficulty in accurately monitoring the amount of food taken by the baby." criticism by who? how is this relevant?
But why is it ok to include criticisms by people against breastfeeding if it is not ok to include benefits by people for breastfeeding? If we include criticisms, how is that balanced if no benefits opposite the criticism is presented. Saying, "One criticism of breastfeeding is..." is basically the same as saying "some mothers think..." or "some people believe..." Those types of statements have been disallowed previously.
"Expressed milk can also be used to assist a mother who is experiencing difficulty breastfeeding, in the later stages because of a newborn causing grazing and bruising or because of an older baby growing teeth and biting." proof? never heard of grazing or bruising
"Though some dislike the idea of feeding their own child with another person's milk, others appreciate the ability to give their baby the benefits of breast milk." some = weasel
"It is not necessarily the case, however, that the appetite and feeding habits of both babies are the same. This leads to the complication of trying to feed each baby according to their individual requirements while also trying to breastfeed them both at the same time. In cases of multiple births with three or more children it is extremely difficult for the mother to organise feeding around the appetites of all of the babies. " Not relevant to breastfeeding. Same issue exists with FFing.
"Although some may find it controversial, some women breastfeed their offspring for as many as three to seven years from birth." some = weasel
" Breastfeeding can make the mother thirsty and can last for up to an hour (usually in the early days, when both mother and baby are inexperienced) – it is therefore common for the mother to require a drink during the process." proof? never heard of this
"Incorrect positioning is one of the main reasons for unsuccessful feeding and can easily cause pain in the nipple or breast." wait, i thought the mother's uptight attititude was the main reason for unsuccessful feeding
Breast and nipple pain -- this whole section should be part of "complications" and not a separate section.
"Since the nutritional requirements of the baby must be satisfied solely by the breast milk in exclusive breastfeeding it is important for the mother to maintain a healthy lifestyle, especially with regards to her diet" proof? i thought the opposite was true, that even malnourished mothers produce adequate milk
"Nutrition for the breastfeeding mom" at BellaOnline.com discusses essential fatty acids, particularly omega-3. While very interesting and well-written it doesn't make any citations and I don't really consider BellaOnline.com to be a strong voice on the subject. Perhaps it's a starting point and could be added until better references can back it up. violet/riga (t) 00:31, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
"If looking after the child while the mother is away, the father may find it impractical or inappropriate to feed expressed breast milk to the infant. This may remove the choice of the mother of whether to breastfeed her child or not."
What does this mean? What would be more practical, a bottle of formula would have to be fed the same way; and what is meant by "inappropriate"? Is this a reference to the family dynamics or social beliefs in some cultures? I would like to see some clarification of how a father's discomfort with feeding expressed milk could possibly "remove the choice of the mother". Can it be reworded to show both sides of the theoretical situation - it is referring to the idea that a father's discomfort with feeding the baby would be an insurmountable problem and make a woman give up the thought of nursing her baby? Can we see some references to the father's needs being the priority, and then balance them by including some possible solutions to the problem? I think both could be presented briefly, those few sentences as it stands make it appear as though the father has the absolute power to take away a mother's choice. And maybe in some places they do, but to say so and not mention any alternative seems unbalanced.
This article overlooks the physiological fact that a healthy new mother will automatically produce breast milk after childbirth, whether she wants to or not. Modern medicine does have the capability to artificially curb the lactation process, but the POV of the article ignores the fact that her developed lactation and the breastfeeding of her newborn is the natural, healthy course of events. The POV takes the position that breastfeeding is a chosen alternative to formula feeding; when in fact it is the opposite that is true.
The “History of Breastfeeding” barely touches on mothers who actually breastfed their own children, moving quickly to alternative methods and the employment of wet nurses. There is no discussion of the inherent advantages of breastfeeding for a woman and child in the wilderness, or in a similar primitive setting, as compared to the modern world. This would more accurately titled as the “History of Breastfeeding Alternatives”.
There is no discussion of how life in a primitive setting favors breastfeeding and lactation development as a survival tool for her family (and/or tribe) to help ensure their strength and survival under extreme conditions such as seasonal or winter famine, or recovery from illness or injury, both of which were commonplace in the primitive wilderness environment. A woman’s inherent ability to induce lactation and release her internal stores as food for others increases her value to a mate or to the tribe, thus ensuring her protection and survival in the harshness of the wilderness. This supports the theory that during early development of the human species women nursed their mates as well as their young and maintained their milk supply for most of their adult lives.
While this article is overall very good, it appears to look at breastfeeding as an oddity of human nature instead of the natural and normal human function that it is. It also leaves a vast area of related material unexplored. See "Roman Charity" to learn more. Mlklvr 18:45, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
"Mothers can also buy or hire breast pumps to extract the milk, if nipple pain becomes unbearable."
While this is not an untrue statement (yes, mothers can get a pump and use it when they have sore nipples) it is based on the incorrect assumption that the use of the pump is a solution to the problem of sore nipples. It gives the impression that a mother can simply switch to pumping instead of nursing from the breast, give her baby the expressed milk, and all will be well. That is not the case. I have never seen pumping offered as a first choice solution for soreness in any reputable breastfeeding resource, nor was that a solution in the eyes of the lactation consultants I saw after my son was born. I have seen it offered merely as a very short term way to obtain a brief respite from difficulties, while in the process of solving the problem, but with the caveat that pumping and bottlefeeding have their own drawbacks and possible complications that would be better avoided.
Most breastfeeding experts agree that the main cause of soreness is incorrect latch which can have various causes. Pumping does nothing to remove the cause of the problem, and in some cases can itself be painful. A breastfeeding mother with sore nipples must seek help to determine the cause of the problem so that it may be solved. I would like to see this sentence replaced with a fact based, expert supported statement about what a mother can do if she has sore nipples.
In addition, the extremely negative use of descriptions of pain make it easy to see why some parts of this article are being seen as biased. Referring to breastfeeding as something that has to be "endured" and can cause "unbearable" pain seems less than neutral. We can surely describe the very real problems some breastfeeding mothers have in a truly neutral way, without resorting to descriptives that seem designed to evoke negative reaction.
Once again I've just had to revert changes to this article because an unregistered user has introduced biased wording. This time it changed the lead, which is supposed to give a summary of the article rather than present a one-sided view.
I wholeheartedly agree that breastfeeding is the correct thing to do, but we must reflect that some people choose not to. Yes, it is recommended by WHO and most other organisations but the rewrites keep adding a wording bias which almost implies that you're an unfit mother if you don't breastfeed your child.
Please can these changes be discussed here before changing the article, just like the above two sections are working to a solution. violet/riga (t) 11:40, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Just quoting you where you said "adding a wording bias which almost implies that you're an unfit mother if you don't breastfeed your child." -- hardly an absurd accusation when it's there in your own words. Scientific *fact* is that all other feeding methods are inferior. Says nothng about fitness as a mother as you seem to feel it implies. Or are you trying to say that you believe that formula is just as good?
I would like to challenge the references used for the article. Ive read that you are refereing to textbooks for your information, but not citing the texts used. The following are texts acknowledge by nursing professionals for the accurate information regarding lactation. Whle the the books cited by the royal College of Midwives and LLL are excellent books, I'm dissapointed that not more texts have been cited as reference material. The following are additonal sources that can be used:
Riordan, j. Breastfeeding and Human Lactation. Boston; London: Jones & Bartlett, Third editon, 2004
Lawrence, R. Breastfeeding: A Guide for the Medical Profession. St. Louis, MO: CV Mosby, fith edition
Wilson-Clay, B. and Hoover, K. The Breastfeeding Atlas. Austin, TX: Lactnews Press, Second Edition
Journal of Human Lactation.
I would be happy to continue to post reference material for your use.
I feel that the current article covers only the Human POV. Is it that the name is not applied to other animals? -- Sundar ( talk · contribs) 11:25, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for clarifying. -- Sundar ( talk · contribs) 12:07, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
Wasn't that lactation or suckling (both now redirect here)? Animals do not have breasts - they have udders and teats. JFW | T@lk 12:14, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Is this the best title for this section? The effects cited only occur if the mother is engaging in negative activities, such as drugs. Thus, it's not that breastfeeding has a negative effect, but that there can be negative outcomes if the mother engages in negative activities. I'm not able to offer a better term, but I think the current title is misleading. If breastfeeding itself has negative effects, then those should be included -- but they aren't right now. -- Westendgirl 06:55, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Teething is not a problem for breastfeeding. Source: http://www.lalecheleague.org/NB/NBMarApr99p36.html
Request page protection for article I have requested page protection for the article as Violetriga's unilateral reverting of my adding a balanced view is against policy. It is not allowed to revert such an edit, rather adding the balanced opposing view to an article is good policy. Also Violetriga has abused the 3 revert rule here and also broken the policy of starting an edit war rather than discussion. Kreen
Kreen, if you are right you have to back up your claim. Stating that feeding in public should be allowed under European law, and that the UK law is "illegal", is original research unless you can support this. Protection will not help you; VioletRiga is an administrator, and you are not. This means that she can edit the article, and you cannot. I'd go for a request for comment if you're desperate. JFW | T@lk 20:28, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
there's concerns of breast feeding to sagging. Though, the article doesn't mention it? Xah Lee 23:17, 2005 Apr 4 (UTC)
Could be a good topic to touch on in a "breastfeeding myths" section. It comes up freqently among mothers in conversation. Hormones like relaxin soften tissues during pregnancy, and engorgement happens when the milk comes in whether a mother breastfeeds or not. Genetics also plays a part.
I think this article should take into account the information presented in male lactation and breast. In particular the addition to ,or re-wording of, the initial paragraph that takes into account that 'breastfeeding' is a word that applies to the feeding of a baby with human milk and only strictly applies to the breast because that feeding is assumed to take place by women. I feel that the emphasis on breastfeeding relating strictly to the breasts as opposed to the act of feeding could be considered an anachonistic POV. -- 219.88.188.28 23:08, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I find it rather irritating that weaning redirects here. The top of the breastfeeding article makes no mention of weaning. Weaning gets only a 2nd-level section, buried way down near the bottom. AlbertCahalan 04:42, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Does it seem to anyone else as if the paragraph on marijuana is hinting at defending the use of marijuana during pregnancy? unsigned comment by User:68.18.105.26.
I just noticed today that there was no Wikipedia entry for Supplemental Nursing System, so I wrote a stub... anyone who would like to go add to it would be welcome. Also, as I wrote it up, I made reference to the advice available from a lactation consultant only to discover that there is no article on that topic yet. Would anyone be willing to get that started? Thanks in advance! Mamawrites 17:44, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
I am aware that this topic has been controversial in the past. However, I felt it necessary to make some minor changes to the article.
I hope that everyone will agree. - Jakew 13:37, August 27, 2005 (UTC)
All of those thirdparties think highly of Cirp.Org. ¿What do people think about Circs.Org? Not one third party has endorsed Circs.Org. Before I restore the link to the unbiased site which publishes both side because it knows the truth is on its side, let us compare Cirp.Org and Circs.Org on breastfeeding
Cirp.Org: 47 articles
Circs.Org: 0 articles
Circs.Org seems about as Fair and Balanced as FoxNews.Com, while Cirp.Org is full of articles published in peerreviewed Journals listing both the good and the bad because we know that the truth is on our side.
—
— Ŭalabio‽ 21:01:38, 2005-08-27 (UTC)
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— Ŭalabio‽ 22:51:51, 2005-08-27 (UTC)
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— Ŭalabio‽ 20:16:06, 2005-08-28 (UTC)
For goodness' sake, I've removed the Howard reference. There are many problems with the whole issue, and I think a small study of 44 infants which looked only into paracetamol (as opposed to e.g. prilocaine) and only addressed Gomco clamp circumcions is not really encyclopedia material. The findings cannot possibly be extended to daily practice. In my personal experience, I've never seen an infant breastfeed as good as in the hours after a non-anaesthetised circumcision! JFW | T@lk 21:27, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
Oh, anyone for sucrose ( PMID 15266438)? JFW | T@lk 21:27, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
When donating blood, one looks away and thinks about something else. ¿Is looking away and thinking about something else sufficient for surgery, or does one need anæsthesia?
Many lactation consultants are aware of the fact that infant circumcision may be a factor in breastfeeding failure.[1] Boys who are circumcised in the hospital before a successful pattern of breastfeeding has been established are at greater risk for breastfeeding failure than boys who are circumcised several days after birth when a successful pattern of breastfeeding has been established.[2] In their book Impact of Birthing Practices on Breastfeeding: Protecting the Mother and Baby Continuum Mary Kroeger and Linda J. Smith discuss circumcision as a possible cause for breastfeeding failure.[3]
Anesthesia used during the surgery does not reduce the post-operative pain caused by pressure on the circumcision wound during breastfeeding. If a lactation consultant is aware that pain from the circumcision wound may be a factor in a boy refusing to breastfeed, she can suggest ways for the mother to hold her son to reduce the pressure on the circumcision wound.
The article on the CIRP web site contains information that is relevant to the breastfeeding article including a list of 52 references related to circumcision and breastfeeding.
1. Lee N. Circumcision and Breastfeeding. [Letter] J Hum Lact 2000;16(4):295. http://cirp.org/library/birth/lee1/
2. Caplan L. Circumcision and breastfeeding: a response to Nikki Lee's letter. [Letter] J Hum Lact 2001;17(1):7. http://www.cirp.org/library/birth/caplan1/
3. Mary Kroeger with Linda J. Smith. Impact of Birthing Practices on Breastfeeding: Protecting the Mother and Baby Continuum. Sudbury, Massachusetts: Jones and Bartlett Publishers, 2003: pp. 197-8. ( ISBN 0-7637-2481-5). http://www.cirp.org/library/birth/kroeger1/
DanBlackham 02:54, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
No Jake, I cited two letters by International Board Certified Lactation Consultants which were published in the Journal of Human Lactation and a quote from the book by Mary Kroeger and Linda J. Smith who are recognized experts in the field of breastfeeding. The book by Kroeger and Smith is an important reference book for lactation consultants. The quote from Kroeger and Smith's book is definitely noteworthy because they are recognized experts in the field of human lactation. -- DanBlackham 10:18, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
The letters and the quote from the book support the fact that infant circumcision may be a factor in breast refusal. -- DanBlackham 10:45, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
The article explicitly states that "Pain or discomfort; for example, due to recent surgery or medical procedures" can be a cause of breast refusal. It does not state that there is a direct link whereby all newborns having a medical procedure will have feeding difficulties. Circumcision can cause problems, mainly discomfort, and that can lead to feeding troubles.
I'm sure that some of you have checked the archive about this, but the inclusion of any mention of circumcision was based on a compromise. The article used to have a much bigger chunk of text about the two things, but that was certainly not appropriate. I personally don't think it needs a mention over and above it being hinted at with "recent surgery or medical procedures", but to maintain the previous peace I lean towards keeping a small reference to it.
I don't want this to fall into the trap of being decided by a poll, so please do continue the discussion, and don't edit war in the article. violet/riga (t) 07:14, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
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— Ŭalabio‽ 05:06:49, 2005-09-05 (UTC)
To avoid boring those uninterested in the circumcision topic, I propose to move the preceding discussion to Talk:Breastfeeding/circumcision. Comments? - Jakew 09:55, August 29, 2005 (UTC)
I believe I have a way to rewrite the paragraph:
Painful medical procedures can interfere with establishment of breastfeeding. [21] Therefore one should therefore use anæsthesia for necessary medical procedures, and avoid all unnecessary procedures, whether medical or not, such as branding, circumcision, piercing, tatooing, et cetera. The unnecessary procedure of circumcision is especially to be avoided because not only does does the unnecessary procedure of circumcision cause unjustifiable torturous pain, but in order to latch properly, the baby must place his genitals against his mother, causing excruciating pain just as the baby starts feeding.
It seems like this version above says it all. It is accurate. I belive we should add it to the article.
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— Ŭalabio‽ 04:51:50, 2005-08-30 (UTC)
I cannot speak for anyone but myself, but if the circumcisionadvocates will leave the main article alone, so shall I. Michael Glass did some excellent wordsmithing of the introduction, so I would like an exception for all sections not involving, pain and medical procedures. As a sign of goodfaith, I shall withdraw to the talkpage firstly. I ask that you look at my proposed rewrite when you rewrite the section (it still needs wordsmithing). I shall now voluntarily withdraw to just the talkpage. I shall not edit the sections about pain and medical procedures unless circumcisionadvocates force mine hand.
— Ŭalabio‽ 21:36:10, 2005-08-30 (UTC)
I have noted that 'Breastfeeding' is a featured article. Therefore I hesitate to make changes. However, I feel that it would be better with simpler wording.
For example: the opening paragraphs could read as follows:
The idea of such changes is not to introduce bias or spin, but to make the article easier to read. This is helpful to everyone. What do others think? Michael Glass 10:51, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
OK. I'll make the changes with that amendment. Michael Glass 13:02, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
I hope the further changes that I have made help to clarify the meaning of the passages concerned and simplify the wording. I believe we should always strive to write as simply and clearly as possible. Michael Glass 14:32, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
I believe the following links have evidence that should be considered:
1 AAP Policy Statement - The Assessment and management of Acute Pain in Infants, Children and Adolescents This says:
2 The following comments from the Journal of Human Lactation are also worth pondering:
3 A randomised, controlled study of pain relief for circumcision had this to say:
With evidence such as this it is not surprising that the Breastfeeding Answeer Book contains statements like this:
In the light of all this I think it is in order to include a carefully worded statement in the article on breastfeeding about the likely disruptive effect of circumcision on breastfeeding, and suggesting ways to ameliorate the situation. Michael Glass 13:54, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
You're right, except that whole thread seemed to be a pack of red herrings, with far too much heat and not nearly enough light. What I was hoping to do was to find reasonably objective and balanced evidence and then write something reasonable, balanced and NPOV on the question that would be broadly acceptable to reasonable people, whatever their views on infant circumcision. Although this endeavour might appear to be quixotic, I have a feeling we might be able to bring it off. Michael Glass 01:06, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
—
— Ŭalabio‽ 06:50:56, 2005-09-01 (UTC)
Without wishing to spoil the bunfight over circumcision, I would like to get back to the effect of circumcision on the establishment of breastfeeding. I believe that something like the following could be inserted into the article.
I believe that this statement is a fair summary of the evidence that I have seen. I would be interested in others' opinions about it. Michael Glass 06:27, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for your feedback, Jake. Here are my responses:
The above were simply responses to what you have written. However, there are other points that should be made.
I will insert a quotation from the AAP on pain management, together with a reference to the Jewish and Gentile lactation consultants. I hope that this will satisfy most people that the issue has been dealt with fairly. Michael Glass 13:52, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
From The Womanly Art of Breastfeeding. 3rd edition. La Leche League International. Franklin Park, IL. 1981. pages 92-93
I am interested to note the use of the term opinion piece. It seems to be a very convenient way of branding, discounting and discarding invonvenient evidence. For instance, when two lactation consultants say that very early circumcision has a disruptive effect on the establishment of breast feeding [32] [33], all you have to do is say opinion piece! press the delete button, and presto! there's an edit that claims to be as NPOV as can be.
In this case, I find the two word argument rather light on reason and logic. I would be grateful if those who have used this term would explain how the opinion of two lactation consultants can be discounted almost without argument.
I would suggest that the letters of the two lactation consultants should be given some weight because:
Of course it is possible that there are other factors that we should consider. If so, I would be interested to be informed of them. Michael Glass 14:05, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
Jake, I take your point about anectdotal evidence being weaker than some other forms of evidence. However, this form of evidence has repeatedly led to previously unrecognised facts. In this case, the opinions of the women have some value because they are registered nurses who work in the field of human lactation. This isn't just a question of an appeal to authority. Indeed your reaction = of laughter = suggests that they have little authority, at least in your eyes. It is that their knowledge and expertise give their opinions some value.
There is a story, perhaps apocryphical = that Mohammed was once asked a question about the artificial insemination of date palms. His response was to immediately defer to the farmers, saying that they knew their business. Now date farmers mightn't know everything even about date palms. However, only a fool would discount their opinions altogether.
In the case in question, the women are both qualified nurses who work in the area of lactation. It strikes me as quite arrogant to airily dismiss their opinions as if they don't count.
Finally, we all have biases, prejudices and blind spots. It's part of the human condition. Drawing attention to this fact isn't to suggest bad faith on the part of others but to ask the others to consider whether the opinions of the two nurses have been too hastily cast aside. Michael Glass 15:13, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
Jake, I have reviewed both letters and there is nothing in them to indicate the term lactation consultant. I'm sorry that I used a term that made you see them in a poor light. I think these points should be noted:
Therefore a careful reading of the letters confirms that both nurses observed something that is confirmed in the AAP policy document, that the pain of circumcision could disrupt breastfeeding. In fact, the only substantial difference that I could observe between the AAP policy document and the letters of the two nurses is in the remedy that both suggest. The AAP suggests using pain relief; the nurses suggest that circumcision be delayed until breastfeeding is well established. These different approaches, of course, are not mutually exclusive.
Therefore I believe this exchange of views between us has established two things:
Now I am not arguing that the nurses' observations are as rigorous as a double blind trial. Nevertheless, I believe that it is inappropriate and unfair to dismiss their observations as of no consequence. I believe that a short reference to their observations would be of interest to readers, as it confirms what the article already says but it suggests a different way of minimising the disruption to breastfeeding. Michael Glass 12:01, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
Michael, why are you so desperate to push these letters? They are anecdotal, far too weak to warrant inclusion. Think for a moment: how would you feel about inclusion of a letter (elsewhere, obviously) from a doctor stating that most of his heart disease patients were uncircumcised? Would you be so keen to include them? I think - I hope that you'd oppose it. I would, for the same reasons I've stated here. Jakew 12:46, September 9, 2005 (UTC) As a further note, the AAP reviewed existing evidence, rather than finding new data. Jakew 12:50, September 9, 2005 (UTC)
Good point, Jay. If you look at [37] you will find a report of a prospective, randomized, double blind, placebo-controlled, clinical trial. I have added this reference to the article. Michael Glass 22:52, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
"Lactation Consultant" is a professional title like "Registered Nurse" or "Medical Doctor".
"Professional Standard for Lactation Consultation"
"International Board Certified Lactation Consultants (IBCLC), Registered Lactation Consultants (RLC) help mothers breastfeed their babies, in challenging situations. By gaining the experience and education necessary to pass the International Board Certification Examination, Board Certified specialists in lactation management prove to their patients and colleagues on the healthcare team that they are competent practitioners - committed to the health and well-being of breastfeeding mothers and babies in their care." [38]
-- DanBlackham 19:58, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
I am interested in the opinions of people familiar with breastfeeding who are not part of the circumcision discussion. Jake says The Breastfeeding Answer Book published by La Leche League International is an "opinion piece". He claims it is Nancy Mohrbacher's opinion and her opinion should not be given much weight.
Is The Breastfeeding Answer Book just an "opinion piece" or is it an authoritative reference book in the field of breastfeeding? -- DanBlackham 20:14, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
BAB is considered an authoritative reference. Workshops and such produced by LLLI qualify for CME credits for doctors and nurses, so the organization carries weight in the medical community as well. This book is a compilation of over 46 years of evidence-based research and caring for breastfeeding mothers, and is overseen by a medical advisory board. When Jake breastfeeds a child of his own for at least nine months he can re-read the book (He HAS read it, right?) and decide how many inaccuracies it has or doesn't have. When he then goes on to log 5,000 patient contact hours under medical supervision, 45 hours of medical courses specific to human lactation and pass an hours-long board exam, he can continue to deride "lactation consultants" at his leisure. (Although I admit, these are only requirements for an IBCLC. There are complete morons out there who can complete only a two-day workshop on breastfeeding basics and are allowed to call themselves "lactation consultant." From what I have seen, these people are just about as useful as "urination consultants.")
Once upon a time a man had the temerity to claim that the world is round.
'Show us your evidence!' said his peers.
He replied, 'But everybody knows that the world is round!'
They retorted 'That's not evidence. That's only an opinion about an opinion. You have committed a logical fallacy '.
The man went away and thought about this. He then read a book or two, and they also said that the world was round. So, being a little more cautious this time, he took the biggest, oldest and most authoritative book he could find and showed it to his critics. 'See' he said, 'The world is indeed round.'
'Another logical fallacy!' replied his critics. This is an appeal to authority. You'll have to do a lot better than that!'
That stumped him. Then he realised that there would soon be an eclipse of the moon. He arranged for his critics to see the eclipse, where the shadow of the round earth covered the moon. However, when they saw the eclipse they said, 'Appearances can be deceptive. We need a photograph and a diagram.'
The man searched the internet and found a photo and a diagram and showed them to his critics. 'Ah, yes,' they said. 'This is an American internet site. You'll have to do better than that!'
He then found a British site and showed them that. 'Yes, but ' said his critics, 'This is still an English-speaking country. What about an Islamic website? What about a Russian website? What about a Christian website?'
He went away again and after much time and labour and expense came back with an Islamic website, a Russian website and a Christian website that all said that the world was round. He even had translations of the website to ensure that he had got it right.
'Aha!' said his critics. 'But are the translators accredited?'
At this point the man decided that he had better things to do with his time. So he decided to go to Wikipedia and do a little editing.
Have a nice day, everybody. Michael Glass 23:22, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
I find it unacceptable that circumcision is the only medical procedure mentioned specifically as a cause for breast refusal. Together with the CIRP link (why not put a full reference to the Howard article in the "reference" section?) is it an ugly scar on the article that there has been a war of words between circumcision activists. I do not deny that a freshly cut baby may be harder to feed or that they sometimes have hypotylenolaemia (it's up to y'all to decipher this one), but this just bears out that there are no other procedures newborns could undergo - quod non. JFW | T@lk 21:04, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
Nor is Wikipedia a place where information should be suppressed simply because others disagree with it. Of course, propaganda is something that should not be a part of Wikipedia, but at least propaganda is upfront and in your face. A much more serious problem is the inadvertent or deliberate suppression of a point of view, just because some people find it confronting, offensive or wrong.
In this case there is some evidence that circumcision can disrupt the establishment of breastfeeding. Some people find anything that seems to criticise circumcision as too confronting, so they want to censor or suppress any mention of this issue. I believe that this is profoundly wrong. I believe that it is better for all of us to work together to get this information across in a fair and balanced way. Michael Glass 10:50, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes. It tells me that some people don't mind mentioning recent surgery, as long as you don't mention circumcision. Now as circumcision is the most common surgery on infants, that's a bit like describing a room but ignoring the elephant in it.
Circumcision can disrupt breastfeeding. Because of this, it should be mentioned. Now I don't mind discussing how it can best be mentioned. However, it should not be censored out of the article altogether. I invite those who may not be inclined to agree with me to discuss how we can do this best. Michael Glass 12:49, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
Come on! There is a problem here, and it is only tangentially connected to the rights and wrongs of circumcision itself. There is clear evidence that circumcision may disrupt breastfeeding, and this is especially the case if the circumcision happens before breastfeeding has been established. This needs to be stated clearly and frankly in the article. Hints, and obscure links in rreference section are simply not good enough.
What is going on is a determined effort to stifle information and I object to it. Michael Glass 21:03, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
I believe that this page is valuable because of the links it provides [ttp://cirp.org/library/birth/] I am sensitive to the concerns of those who feel it is biased. That is why I suggest we have a NPOV note to alert people to its point of view. Then those who find it unacceptable will have fair warning. Despite this the link has been removed. The reason given is:
non-encyclopedic OK, but is any other link encyclopedic?
partisan source This is a partisan way of describing a source of information that the writer objects to.
source only peripherally related to breastfeeding Really? Let's look at some of the headings:
I don't think I need to go on. Surely this shows that the charge of being peripherally related to breastfeeding simply cannot be sustained. So let's work on adding accurate and unbiased information, not deleting and censoring it. Michael Glass 12:42, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
Of course it has a strong point of view. Yes it does have its own agenda and, like all of us, it is perhaps not as willing to respond to cirticism as it should be. Nevertheless, the links are useful and the point of view is worth considering. That's why I think that a link from the article is in order.
What I find much more concerning is the determination of a couple of people to downplay or suppress information or links about circumcision and breastfeeding problems. This is far more worrying. Michael Glass 20:39, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
Only Jay and Jake appear to have expressed support for this position here. Michael Glass 11:38, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
I find the denial of suppressing information to be disingenuous. I have tried my best to ensure that the article on breastfeeding has balanced and fair information on some possible effects of circumcision on breastfeeding. Virtually every attempt has been suppressed. Even links to articles have been routinely rejected on flimsy grounds. The one or two links that were finally let stand were placed in a list of references so long that it almost guarantees that they are overlooked. Despite the evidence that circumcision can disrupt breastfeeding, any direct reference to this is removed. Then the people who do this turn round and claim that they are protecting the article from bias! Michael Glass 11:38, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
I respect Jake's intelligence and his ability to consider other people's arguments. However, I must object to the way he did the edit on the link to surgery. The link I provided was about the effect on breastfeeding of recent surgery, including circumcision. The replacement link said nothing about circumcision and nothing about breastfeeding, so it was quite irrelevant. The only reason I can see for doing this was to suppress a point of view that Jake objected to. If Jake had voiced some objection to the link that would have been fair. However, changing the link in a way that could be taken to imply that the same or similar information was elsewhere on Wikipedia is disappointing. Michael Glass 11:38, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Now I see that Jake has replaced a bad link with a good link on breastfeeding and surgery. This is an asset to the article. However, as circumcision is the most common procedure on infant boys it deserves its own reference. Michael Glass 12:01, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes, Jake, is is covered, cloaked and concealed by the use of the word 'surgery'. I think it is disingenuous to pretend otherwise.
Please look again at what I am aiming for: a short, simple statement that points out that circumcision can disrupt breastfeeding and a link to further information that would explain how to minimise this problem.
If we can come to some kind of consensus on other edits I believe we can do the same here. We already accept that surgery of any kind can disrupt the establishment of breastfeeding. We would both agree that circumcision is the most common form of surgery on newborn boys. Our only area of contention is in how to present the evidence fairly. It shouldn't take much more to bridge the gap. Michael Glass 13:04, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Please see a more relevant Pepsi analogy below. [39] -- DanBlackham 06:58, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
Jake, a charge of activism from you is laughable. You are the author of the pro-circumcision website, circs.org, and your edits and comments on your own user page make it clear that you have a very great interest and involvement in circumcision. While I respect your intelligence and value many of your contributions to Wikipedia, please don't come the raw prawn.
You say: I am neither in favour of or against neonatal circumcision. Rather, I am in favour of parents making an informed decision. An informed decision requires accurate and honest information, so I am opposed to attempts to mislead. All I ask is that you live up to your own ideals.
Jayig, what is evidence of activism: arguing for relevant, documented information to be put in an article or making every effort to minimise or remove that information? If both are evidence of activism, why have you chosen to support suppression and censorship? Michael Glass 20:56, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
I know that Jayig has made a great contribution to Wikipedia but I am disappointed at the intemperate tone of the comment above and his apparent assumption of bad faith on my part. However, I am most disappointed that an Administrator of Wikipedia should make a misleading description of his edit.
He said: restore proper Wikipedia link, remove link to one-topic and biased activist site. What he did was to remove a link. Therefore the first part of his description is demonstrably false. Now about the second part of his description. The link was to a policy statement of the American Academy of Pediatrics entitled The Assessment and Management of Acute Pain in Infants, Children, and Adolescents. It was a link to this article that Jayig chose to describe as a link to one-topic and biased activist site because it was published on the CIRP website. I leave it to the reader to decide if this was fair dealing.
I, for one, expect more of an Administrator of Wikipedia. Michael Glass 11:53, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
I found this article via one of the links at the bottom of the article: Do exclusively breast-fed infants need vitamin D supplements? The discussion in that article dovetails the recommendations I've heard given by several breastfeeding-advocate pediatricians. I'm thinking a couple of sentences about the possibility of rickets and vitamin D deficiency, and when supplementing is appropriate (and when it is not needed) would be a good addition to the article. Anyone else have an opinion on this? Nandesuka 12:06, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
I have added a link to an important policy statement about the control of pain in infants and children. I have chosen the CIRP reprint for the following reasons:
I hope that those who are dedicated to providing clear, accurate and unbiased information to parents will bear this in mind. Michael Glass 21:14, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Oh Jayjg, ¿could you please explain your removal of this link to the AAP Policy Statement - The Assessment and Management of Acute Pain in Infants, Children, and Adolescents in the edit “remove link to one-topic and biased activist site”? I can see nothing wrong with the paper. ¿Is the AAP an one-topic activistic site? Marking the relevant text in a long paper does not seem a very good reason for calling a policystatement biased. ¿Who other than Jayjg and maybe (he has not yet chimed into this conversation yet) user Jakew has a problem with this source?
—
— Ŭalabio‽ 03:46, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Walabio, it is quite obvious from Jay's comment that he refers to CIRP, not the AAP. The original article would be preferable (indeed I would argue that we should always prefer the original to a reprint). It would be preferable not only because of the risk of introducing errors during republication, but also because highlighting a few passages to make a point subtly alters the apparent meaning of a document.
Secondly, while the original is preferable, it is still not appropriate. That article discusses surgery and pain in general, but only mentions breastfeeding once, in passing. It is not even general information, since they only discuss this in connection with circumcision. As stated previously, there is no need to single out circumcision. If we want to link to general information on pain, we should prefer Wikipedia's article. Jakew 11:10, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
You made some good points, Jake. However, before I want a reference to the CIRP reprint, I would prefer to have the following paragraph quoted in the article:
Please note that I quoted more than CIRP highlighted, to give a more balanced picture of what the AAP wrote. Despite your charge of pushing an agenda, this is not my intention.
I agree that the article should be read as a whole because it is an important paper about the importance of managing pain in a humane manner. A short quotation in the text and a link to the AAP website would be ideal.
I am surprised at the spin you have put on what I wrote above. The AAP policy says It is unacceptable that almost no potent analgesics have received approval from the Food and Drug Administration for use in children. My summary of this read almost no powerful analgesics have received official approval.I quoted both this and the other statement you alluded to,
A preference to using authoritative sources, where appropriate, is consistent with Wikipedia policy to cite sources. It is perverse to assert that this means I favour other sites over Wikipedia. They simply serve different purposes.
Finally, the text of the link was pain, and that was what the whole article was about. Therefore the link was accurately described. Michael Glass 15:26, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
I have edited the second paragraph to:
I have edited the third paragraph to:
As this is near the beginning of the article it's important that it reads well and is NPOV. I hope that others will look at these paragraphs closely to see if there are other ways in which they can be improved. Michael Glass 00:56, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Jayig, under the heading, "Edits to the second and third paragraphs (above) you wrote:
This may give others a false impression of what you did. Your edit had nothing to do with the second and third paragraphs. Your edit was to a dot point about breast refusal which reads:
You removed the links to two articles:
and
University Health Care: Surgery and the Breastfeeding Baby
You then replaced these links with Wiki links to pain and surgery, neither of which said anything about infant feeding.
Why did you remove relevant links and replace them with less relevant links?
Michael Glass 11:53, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Fine. In other cases when I have added direct links to information, they have not been challenged. Why the double standard? Michael Glass 21:16, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Simple. The links I added are more relevant. However, I'm quite content to have both Wiki links and the more relevant links in the text. Any objections? Michael Glass 08:37, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
I have now added those links, and I expect them to be left in place. However, I still feel that it is quite unsatisfactory that mention of the disruptive effect that painful procedures such as circumcision can have on the establishment of breastfeeding is still excluded from the text of the article. I believe that this short passage from the AAP policy that follows would be appropriate.
What do others think? Michael Glass 21:42, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
No. It's not explicit about circumcision. No explicit reference to the effect of circumcision on breastfeeding has been allowed to stand. In fact, your last edit to the article was to remove an explicit reference to the disruptive effect of circumcision on breastfeeding from the list of references! That is a measure of the length that you will go to remove any explicit reference to a well documented cause of problems in breastfeeding.
Why is there such resistance to including any such comment? Why?
i am not asking for a diatribe against circumcision. All I want to see is something short, factual, frank and moderate abnout this issue This statement would serve that purpose well.
What about it? . Michael Glass 12:15, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
The adverse affect of infant circumcision on breastfeeding is well documented by people familiar with problems of breast refusal. The determined effort by supporters of infant circumcision to remove any mention of circumcision from the article is a form of activism that is contrary to the spirit of Wikipedia. Please recall that Wikipedia is not a soapbox. -- DanBlackham 07:36, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
If 80 words is a problem, how about just a couple of words? Like this:
Now to say that e.g., circumcision focuses the whole article on circumcision is a complete nonsense. Michael Glass 12:26, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Irrelevant. Michael Glass 15:09, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
A more relevant Pepsi analogy would be if an article on caffeine said, "Caffeinated beverages, including caffeinated soda, may cause health problems in children" and a Pepsi salesman and members of a Pepsi Club removed "including caffeinated soda" because they did not want anything in the article to reflect negatively on Pepsi. -- DanBlackham 06:52, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
True. I'll try another way to explain why it is important to mention circumcision explicitly in the article.
However, there are flow-on issues that also impinge on this question.
Jay's suggestion that Michael is "trying to focus this article about breastfeeding on circumcision" is absurd. One paragraph on the negative effect of infant circumcision on breastfeeding is reasonable and appropriate. One paragraph on the relationship between infant circumcision and breast refusal does not "focus" the article on circumcision. -- DanBlackham 07:15, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
Finally, Jake is quite right in his suggestion that the question of breastfeeding and circumcision should be discussed in the articles on circumcision. This is true, and I look forward to working with him to include more of such material in Medical analysis of circumcision. Michael Glass 12:56, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
True. Therefore I will link this section of [Breastfeeding] to that part of [Medical analysis of circumcision], like this:
Michael Glass 21:53, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
Jake, I see that you've removed a link to a Wiki article. Why did you remove the link to Medical Analysis of Circumcision # Pain, stress, trauma and interference with breastfeeding? Trying to hide something? Michael Glass 15:50, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
I see you've removed that link again. You really do look as if you're trying to hide something. Michael Glass 16:15, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
One link is to the pain of surgery. The other link is to pain in general, but specifically mentions the disruptive effect that circumcision can have on breastfeeding. A proper discussion of circumcision and breastfeeding would address the issue squarely and would mention the following:
Instead of delete, delete, delete, censor, censor, censor I expect your co-operation in getting these facts across in a moderate and responsible way. Michael Glass 23:08, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
I have added a lot more links to the article and rearranged them somewhat and adding two new headings. The reason for this was that I found so much material on the question of breastfeeding that I had to order them in some way. The two new headings are on pain and on the risks of artificial feeding. I hope that people find that the linked articles are useful and interesting, but if anyone has any concerns about any of the articles or the arrangement of the links, I hope that they will discuss their concerns here. Also, I hope that others will add more useful links. Michael Glass 15:24, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
Isn't anesthesia a cause of breast refusal? Would it not be "refusal" if the baby is too sleepy or numb to respond? AlbertCahalan 01:24, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
It seems to me that lactation should have its own article, rather than redirecting to breastfeeding. I'd like to see an article that treats lactation as a physiological process, across taxa, from the framework of evolutionary biology. The development of lactation was an important evolutionary innovation, shaping (in some sense, defining) the mammalian taxon.
The breastfeeding article is NOT the appropriate forum to treat these considerations; lactation and breastfeeding are not synonymous, nor do their respective denotations bear sufficient overlap to justify a redirect (especially at the expense of an important and informative entry for lactation).
I submit that the redirect be reconsidered.-- NiOrtiga 19:18, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
The JAMA this week had a study on duration of lactation vs incidence of diabetes in the mothers [54]. I'm not (yet) suggesting we put this in, but may be part of a longer paragraph discussing other health benefits for the mother (e.g. decreased osteoporosis and breast cancer risk). JFW | T@lk 08:04, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
Some parts of the article read a bit like a instruction manual, and some of the references are done in the text rather than at the end. Andjam 06:27, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
This article uses the term "alveoli" with no explanation or link. I found it confusing because I thought the alveoli were in the lungs. Our dab page at Alveolus (disambiguation) clarifies that the term can refer to any of several different structures. Pending the creation of an article about the breast alveoli, I've wikilinked "alveoli" to that dab page. It would be great if someone knowledgeable would create Mammary alveolus or whatever the proper title is. JamesMLane t c 06:37, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Some of the thumbnails are ridiculously large files for their small size. One image that is 160px by 120px is 26KB. I think if there is anyway to recompress versions of these thumbnails and use them instead it would greatly help people who arent on broadband. I am new here and not sure if there is a way to supply your own thumbnails for images. SallyB 23:28, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm new to this article, so I'm trying not to tread on toes here. What are the feelings of other editors here about going over to using inline references? I mean the kind that hyperlink to the endnotes at the bottom of the page, can't remember offhand what the style is called. It wouldn't interrupt readability too badly, and it would make it easier to tell which part is sourced by what. Kasreyn 04:14, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
The lead sentences of an article should really avoid specialised vocab. Neither "latch" nor "frenulum" are everday words, and so should be given with glossary if used so early in the piece - a link is not enough.
I'm kind of surprised this is still FA - the lead really has some problems. What does "Breast milk has been shown to be best for the child" mean? Best compared to what? The lead also makes no mention of the controversies surrounding breastfeeding, nor the difficulties encountered by the modern mother - which are exactly what the average reader would expect to find here. I'm almost tempted to add an NPOV tag (the article strongly takes a "everyone should breastfeed" stance) but will resist.
Actually there's technical vocab all the way through: "let-down reflex" - this needs explanation. "Afterpains"? "ductule system"? "alveoli"?
Poor formatting too - uses inline (ibid) references, double hyphens (--) instead of em-dashes, use of inline web references rather than <ref> links. I've nominated it at Wikipedia:Featured article review for a review. Stevage 08:45, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Are there specific reasons to prefer breastfeeding rather than bottle-feeding expressed milk? - This unsigned comment was made by 131.107.0.89 on 17:08, May 23, 2006 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
I removed the time period for the commencement of lactation in males and non-pregnant women. As far as I've researched and heard, the time frame varies widely from person to person and also depends on the amount of stimulation the nipples receive. Joele Gilbert
The following seems unlikely, or a non sequitur, or something. Surely human milk has been analyzed.
Have you seen the dreadful things said about wet nurses over in the Infanticide article?
Ortolan88 21:52 Jul 29, 2002 (PDT)
Human milk has been analysed to the extreme. It's not that we don't know a lot of what is in breast milk; it's that we keep discovering more and more ingredients. For one thing, breast milk is a living food; so it more than an issue of what the nutrient list is, it is a matter of cells interacting with cells. We just don't really understand everything about breast milk that makes it the best for a baby. We just know that it is impossible to duplicate by artificial means. I'm not a medical expert (just a mom who is interested), so I'll try to find a more technical explanation.
As for infanticide article... yikes!
Joele, I changed "the exact content of breast milk is unknown" to "the exact interactive properties of breast milk are unknown" because I think this is more what you are getting at. I also removed marijuana from your list of potential dangers, because there is NO documented suggestion that this is the case. I think it shows bias to include marijuana just because it is illegal ... it's very different from caffeine or crack.
Sara Parks Ricker
A comment on the image: I like it. It's very clinical and informative. I only have one minor criticism: it is a bit low-res. Is there a chance of getting a slightly higher resolution image? On the current image, some of the labels are almost unreadable. The ones that are discernable are very muddled. — Frecklefoot 13:48 13 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I'll try and find a better copy, but I got this from the fda's website, and I don't know if they have a higher res one. I tried making it bigger, but of course it just looked worse. MB 14:12 13 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I think the article needs some discussion of breastfeeding in public. I'm not sure about other countries but in the UK it is illegal to stop a woman from breastfeeding publicly. In the Royal College of Midwifery journal (August 2004) there is an article about The National Gallery in London admitting a mistake after banning a breastfeeding mother from one of its exhibition rooms. violet/riga 09:11, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I'll leave the details to the expert authors, but I couldn't see any reference to the letdown reflex, and how in many women it triggers an immediate thirst. Dunstan 10:44, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Circumcision disrupts
breastfeeding.
Circumcision is very painful.
Circumcision causes a huge spike in
stress-
hormones.
Circumcision drives
infants into
catatonic states. Needless to state,
circumcision disrupts
breastfeeding If anyone doubts this, they can run a search. Expectant mothers should consider this before cutting off pieces of their babies, if they plan to breastfeed. I believe that we should have one informative link about this subject.
Ŭalabio 05:29, 2004 Sep 23 (UTC)
I met Tina Kimmel in meatspace. She explained what I did not understand (which is most of the subject). Basically, this is it:
Tina Kimmel stated that La Leche League International refuses to condemn sexual mutilation because of the objection of a few religiously motivated women in the leadership.
I take full responsibility for errors (this is all from memory). You may write to Tina Kimmel thus:
"Tinna Kimmel " < Tinakimmel @T Motherlove . D . O . T . Org >
The address is spamproofed. Some assembly required.
Ŭalabio 03:27, 2004 Oct 18 (UTC)
I suggest that until you have some scientifically proven evidence to present you desist from pushing your POV anti-circumcision agenda in this regard. It should be clear that parents who choose to circumcise their sons should insist on the use of the best pain relief available, both during and post the procedure. Your scare tactic only works where pain relief is not used. The more people begin to insist on its use the less your scare tactic will work. - Robert the Bruce 05:33, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The sentence seems kinda added on and out of place. Does a topic like circumcision really need a whole subtopic in breast feeding? It should be integrated or eliminated instead of added as an addendum. 04:51, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I have now integrated the topic as a reason for Breast Refusal which is where it should of been in the first place.
No criticism is intended in the article, but then again one cannot hide scientific knowledge and research. Effects of circumcision are related to breastfeeding in some people's minds, and not in others. There is no reason both views cannot be respected. Are we to add breastfeeding information to the circumcision article to appease the puritanical anti-sexual POV? Please remember that circumcision is not medically-indicated surgery to treat disease or injury, so blur that line deliberately is POV. I believe this can be presented in some neutral way. DanP 18:36, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
DanP had added back a paragraph on circumcision three times to the section on maternal bonding. I think the most recent version is the best:
However, given that the section on maternal bonding is about the benefits of breastfeeding for bonding, not vice versa, and that the effects of surgery, such as circumcision, on breastfeeding is already mentioned in the section on breast refusal, I don't think this is necessary and have removed it twice ( Theresa knott did once too). If pushed, I guess I could live with:
However, I still don't think this is really required either. Anyone else have views? -- ALoan (Talk) 19:08, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
(EDIT CONFLICT) Talking to Dan, I don't understand your question. If circumcision causes pain, and this affects feeding then by all means add that fact to the circumcision article. But it's off topic here. This article is about breast feeding. You can't just go down the cirp list and say to yourself "Oh look this article is about breastfeeding, I'll stick on wikipedia's breastfeeding page, this articles about sexual intercourse, I'll stick it on wikipedias sexual intercourse page, this ones about infant circumcision i'll stick it on Wikipedia's infant page. You said above "Please remember that circumcision is not medically-indicated surgery to treat disease or injury" Now what on earth has that got to do with breastfeeding? Theresa Knott (Not the skater) 19:18, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
(drop indent)
There should be some mention of circumcision - it is a common procedure (yes, procedure) that does cause problems for breastfeeding women. Problems it causes for maternal bonding should be mentioned in the maternal bond article. It is fine as a point in the breast refusal section, as far as I am concerned. violet/riga (t) 21:11, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
DanP --
You still haven't responded to my two questions above - I don't see why this article on breastfeeding should mention the detrimental effects (if any) of circumcision on maternal bonding, rather than those effects being mentioned in the article on maternal bonding, and you have not suggested any language to change the reference to surgery (including circumcision) - for what it is worth, I still think circumcision is a form of surgery. -- ALoan (Talk) 18:23, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
ALoan, you make several good points. The POV slant is not exactly what you say, but is this:
I believe the line on breast refusal could be changed from "Discomfort, possibly due to recent surgery or medical procedures (for example, circumcision)" to "Pain, possibly due to surgery or circumcision procedures" which leaves the judgement of medical necessity in neutral territory.
I don't think it's hard to put this in NPOV format in the bonding section. "Some people believe breastfeeding and bonding is impacted negatively by the choice of circumcising a child, and research supports this. Circumcision is common in the United States, and parents should take this into consideration before making this decision." Any objections? DanP 19:18, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Circumcision and the affect it has should be mentioned in the circumcision article. It does not have a significant enough affect on breastfeeding (when compared to bottle feeding) that warrants greater mention than there already is. The affect it has on the maternal bond should be mentioned further in other articles, yes, but not here. Sorry but I feel that objections to these changes have been made clear enough now and I don't see any need for them to go ahead. violet/riga (t) 19:56, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
As someone who is strongly opposed to non-therapeutic circumcision of children I agree with ALoan and violet/riga regarding DanP's comments. Circumcision is already mentioned in the breast refusal section of the article in an appropriate way. The controversy over whether circumcision should be called "surgery" or "permanent body modification" belongs in the circumcision article, not the breastfeeding article. Health care professionals and society in general view circumcision as surgery. -- DanBlackham 20:40, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Almost by definition, a fact cannot start with the words "it is better that". That is a matter of degree and opinion. "Better" is a comparison and an opinion. Whether it is opinion backed by the AAP, Congress, or all of humanity, it is still opinion. Saying "no pedia should pander to them" is simply POV -- how can it not be? NPOV is to state both sides without claiming one is right. If the article says it is a fact that alcohol/tobbacco causes some problems, that is fine with me. But to judge the act as "harmful" is not magically more justfiable than judging the signature of consent to leave a boy scarred and it's impact on breastfeeding (bottle feeding is easier, so please don't blur them together with regard to bonding). I respect your opinion and mostly agree with it, but this is an encyclopedia. I guess we now have opinionpedia. DanP 21:29, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Well, whatever violet/riga says here, the article says "Breastfeeding can be harmful to the infant if the mother ... uses potentially harmful substances such as caffeine, tobacco, alcohol, cocaine, heroin and amphetamines" (emphasis added) - surely you can agree that (i) caffeine, tobacco, alcohol, cocaine, heroin and amphetamines are potentially harmful and (ii) they can be harmful to a breastfed infant if used by the nursing mother? -- ALoan (Talk) 21:26, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I wrote to " Tina Kimmel " < Tina @T Motherlove . Org > who referred me to " Amber Craig " < Ambercraig @T Nc . Rr . Com > who referred me to " Norm Cohen " < NormCohen @T NOCIRCofMI . org > who sent me this:
October 2004
Suffering at the Breast is Not Best
La Leche League Censors While Mothers and Sons Suffer
To La Leche League Board of Directors, Staff, Leaders, Members, and Alumnae:
In a shocking display of mixing with religious causes, La Leche League’s Board of Directors has let a small group of women defeat the free exchange of information on circumcision’s negative impact on breastfeeding success.
In April of 2003, NOCIRC signed a contract with La Leche League International as an exhibitor and paid for exhibit space for their international conference held in July 2003. Shortly before the event, the board of directors vetoed our admission as exhibitors. Word of our attendance had spread to a minority of Jewish women in the organization who objected to our very presence.
NOCIRC has exhibited successfully at literally hundreds of conferences locally, regionally, and nationally. We are asked back year after year. Without religious prejudice, we provide information about the traumatic effects of circumcision. We hand out our information pamphlets in a non-confrontational manner to those who approach our table because they are interested in learning about the issue. Each year, we have a well-received exhibit booth for physicians attending the American Academy of Pediatrics national conference.
NOCIRC already counts among its supporters hundreds of LLL members and former members. The silent majority of leaders within League are already on our side. Attendees who were interested would have appreciated our information; those who were not interested would have just walked on by.
The vast majority of boys who are circumcised in the United States are not sons of Jewish or Muslim parents. Preventing these non-religious circumcisions has always been the primary focus for NOCIRC. This painful surgery, the most common procedure that baby boys are forced to experience, puts breastfeeding success at risk. Good chest-to-chest positioning requires mom to press her son’s wounded penis up against her body, and the pain makes him unable or unwilling to nurse.
La Leche League reported problems with breastfeeding by circumcised infants in their 1981 edition of The Womanly Art of Breastfeeding. In 1996, LLL ratified the Mother-Friendly Childbirth Initiative, along with 25 other organizations. The organization accepted ten basic principles for mother-friendly care, including the requirement that service providers must “discourage non-religious circumcision of the newborn.” (on-line at [8]).
The breastfeeding relationship does not begin in a vacuum. In 2002, NOCIRC issued its position statement, “The Effects of Circumcision on Breastfeeding,” available at [9]. Researchers have found that some male babies are unable to suckle the mother’s breast after circumcision. The circumcised infant is in pain and is in an exhausted, weakened, and debilitated condition. The circumcision procedure frequently causes the newborn to withdraw from his environment, interfering with his process of bonding and breastfeeding.
La Leche League claims it is a non-sectarian organization. However, when it comes to circumcision, it is a religious organization. A few powerful members are keeping clinical data regarding breastfeeding obstacles out of the hands of all members in order to further their personal religious viewpoint. For six years now they have systematically excluded NOCIRC from simply having a table at their area and national conferences.
The Board of Directors has placed a higher priority on protecting religious circumcision than on breastfeeding success for the 94% of non-Jewish, non-Muslim moms. Jewish boys have seven days to establish breastfeeding before undergoing surgery; non-Jewish boys do not because they are circumcised at birth, and thus they are at a greater risk.
The Board’s action is hypocritical in light of LLL’s own struggle with those who block the promotion of breastfeeding benefits for fear of upsetting parents. LLL has itself been accused of producing guilt when they describe the advantages of breastfeeding in much the same way that NOCIRC is now being accused by LLL.
LLL has an obligation to its members to make available information on how circumcision affects breastfeeding. New and expectant moms need this information ASAP in order to nurture a successful breastfeeding relationship with their sons. NOCIRC can help to insure that this happens.
NOCIRC is not asking for an endorsement from LLL nor are we asking for leaders to discuss circumcision during meetings. We are simply asking to be one of the many outside organizations and merchants not directly involved in breastfeeding that exhibit each year at their excellent conferences.
Are you surprised by the League’s lack of courage on this issue? If so, then write to the board at [10]. Demand that they stop this petty censorship and trust conference attendees to make their own informed choice about circumcision. On behalf of babies yet to be born and parents yet to be educated, demand that they take the moral high road and let NOCIRC be a participant in breastfeeding success.
On behalf of all the children, thanks!
"Norm Cohen"
Director
NOCIRC of Michigan
< NormCohen @T NOCIRCofMI . org >
(248) 642-5703
Original document was plain text. Links wikified. Email-addresses spam-proofed.
Ŭalabio 07:19, 2004 Nov 8 (UTC)
"There is also a small statistical correlation between the Hepatitis B vaccination given at birth and difficulty establishing breastfeeding. This difficulty is manifested as a slight delay in the ability of the baby to correctly establishing feeding, so the immediate administration of the Hepatitis B vaccine is usually recommended."
Removed the above until an external link or the statistical evidance can be added. violet/riga (t) 07:18, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
A naive male writes: I'm told that ovulation ceases while a woman is actively breastfeeding. Presumably an evolutionary reason for this would be to ensure that an infant was properly weaned before its mother gave birth to another child, but the article mentions that a woman can breastfeed children of different ages. Is there any truth in what I was told? Don't worry - I'm not so naive that I'd want to rely on it as a form of birth control!! :-) Adambisset 00:54, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for the information Adambisset 12:59, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC) :-)
Now this article is in excess of 41k I think it needs breaking down a little. I'm thinking of creating a Benefits, contraindications and complications of breastfeeding article to take those two large sections out, but the article name is hardly great. The other idea was for a History of breastfeeding article, but I think the content works well in this one and the former idea is better. So, can anyone think of a better article title than that first one? Or another way of splitting this, perhaps.
I have read some articles discussing the sexual arousal sometimes associated with breastfeeding, and discussed it with my wife, and am surprised to see nothing here on this topic. Are there any objections to my writing it up here, despite my constitutional lack of experience? Haiduc 03:43, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Is it necessary to introduce a bottle to a baby? SOme people say that a bottle should be introduced by 6 weeks or the baby will never take one. If the mother became ill when the baby was older and a bottle became necessary, would the child not take it? This seems ludicrous to me.-- Westendgirl 06:03, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
This article appears to have a bias against breastfeeding, ignoring evidence-based medicine. Also, many good-faith recent edits attempting to neutralize some of the bias have been removed with no explanation. I'd like my suggestion that this page be up for discussion of its neutrality to at least be discussed and not summarily dismissed as vandalism. Suggested reading: http://www.het.brown.edu/people/kjp/stuff/watch_your_language.htm
Statements from the article that subtly or not-so-subtly make breastfeeding seem difficult and impossible to achieve. See below. Reading these make it seem like in order to breastfeed, a mother must eat a perfect diet, be serenely relaxed, be prepared for embarassing leakage, expect problems with her partner, experience excrutiating pain, and even harm her infant.
"The thought of nursing or the sound of any baby can stimulate the process, causing unexpected leakage." (caution! you might leak! how embarassing!)
"Commonly both breasts can give out milk when one infant is feeding, but this and other problems often settle after two weeks of feeding." exactly what problem are you talking about here?
"One major cause of difficulties during breastfeeding is when the mother is in a stressed or anxious state of mind." (proof? why not blame the mother for not being relaxed enough.)
"While some partners may feel left out when the mother is feeding the baby," not sure why this is in an enclopedia article, sounds more like a marital problem, and a weaselly one at that
"Breastfeeding, possibly alongside birth-related health problems, takes a lot of time." -- nothing to do with BFing. Same situation applies for formula feeding.
"This may add pressure to the partner and the family, with them having to work harder, caring for the mother and performing tasks she would otherwise do. " again weaselly and hardly reference material fodder
"If looking after the child while the mother is away, the father may find it impractical or inappropriate to feed expressed breast milk to the infant. This may remove the choice of the mother of whether to breastfeed her child or not." huh? impractical or inappropriate in what way? nothing to do with BFing. Same situation applies for formula feeding.
"It is not uncommon for a mother and child to have difficulties breastfeeding, with some women unable to feed their child at all." put this in the complications section
"Others find it too problematic or choose not to attempt or continue breastfeeding for personal reasons." maybe there should be a "choosing to breastfeed" section?
(The contraindications and complications section should be separated. Mixing the two makes things like masitis seem like a contraindication.)
"Negative effects upon the infant Breastfeeding can be harmful to the infant if the mother:" (we need proof for this -- harmful how? is it more harmful to receive formula, or to received breastmilk with medication in it???? need clear proof of harm before this is stated)
"is taking certain medications which may be passed onto the child through the milk and are found to be harmful. However, the vast majority of medications are compatible with breastfeeding. has had excessive exposure to heavy metals such as mercury" (again proof?)
"If the baby is large and grows quickly, the fat stores gained by the mother during pregnancy can be quickly depleted, and she may have trouble eating well enough to keep developing sufficient milk." proof?
"The diet usually involves a high calorie, high nutrition diet which follows on from that in pregnancy. " proof?
"Breastfeeding mothers must use caution if they regularly consume nicotine through tobacco smoking. In addition to reducing the milk supply, heavy use of cigarettes by the mother (more than 20 per day) has been shown to cause vomiting, diarrhea, rapid heart rate, and restlessness in breastfeeding infants. Research is ongoing to determine whether the benefits of breastfeeding out-weigh the potential harm of nicotine in breast milk. "(Actually, we need to know whether nicotine in breastmilk is more risky than formula since that is what is subtly being recommended here)
"One criticism of breastfeeding is the difficulty in accurately monitoring the amount of food taken by the baby." criticism by who? how is this relevant?
But why is it ok to include criticisms by people against breastfeeding if it is not ok to include benefits by people for breastfeeding? If we include criticisms, how is that balanced if no benefits opposite the criticism is presented. Saying, "One criticism of breastfeeding is..." is basically the same as saying "some mothers think..." or "some people believe..." Those types of statements have been disallowed previously.
"Expressed milk can also be used to assist a mother who is experiencing difficulty breastfeeding, in the later stages because of a newborn causing grazing and bruising or because of an older baby growing teeth and biting." proof? never heard of grazing or bruising
"Though some dislike the idea of feeding their own child with another person's milk, others appreciate the ability to give their baby the benefits of breast milk." some = weasel
"It is not necessarily the case, however, that the appetite and feeding habits of both babies are the same. This leads to the complication of trying to feed each baby according to their individual requirements while also trying to breastfeed them both at the same time. In cases of multiple births with three or more children it is extremely difficult for the mother to organise feeding around the appetites of all of the babies. " Not relevant to breastfeeding. Same issue exists with FFing.
"Although some may find it controversial, some women breastfeed their offspring for as many as three to seven years from birth." some = weasel
" Breastfeeding can make the mother thirsty and can last for up to an hour (usually in the early days, when both mother and baby are inexperienced) – it is therefore common for the mother to require a drink during the process." proof? never heard of this
"Incorrect positioning is one of the main reasons for unsuccessful feeding and can easily cause pain in the nipple or breast." wait, i thought the mother's uptight attititude was the main reason for unsuccessful feeding
Breast and nipple pain -- this whole section should be part of "complications" and not a separate section.
"Since the nutritional requirements of the baby must be satisfied solely by the breast milk in exclusive breastfeeding it is important for the mother to maintain a healthy lifestyle, especially with regards to her diet" proof? i thought the opposite was true, that even malnourished mothers produce adequate milk
"Nutrition for the breastfeeding mom" at BellaOnline.com discusses essential fatty acids, particularly omega-3. While very interesting and well-written it doesn't make any citations and I don't really consider BellaOnline.com to be a strong voice on the subject. Perhaps it's a starting point and could be added until better references can back it up. violet/riga (t) 00:31, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
"If looking after the child while the mother is away, the father may find it impractical or inappropriate to feed expressed breast milk to the infant. This may remove the choice of the mother of whether to breastfeed her child or not."
What does this mean? What would be more practical, a bottle of formula would have to be fed the same way; and what is meant by "inappropriate"? Is this a reference to the family dynamics or social beliefs in some cultures? I would like to see some clarification of how a father's discomfort with feeding expressed milk could possibly "remove the choice of the mother". Can it be reworded to show both sides of the theoretical situation - it is referring to the idea that a father's discomfort with feeding the baby would be an insurmountable problem and make a woman give up the thought of nursing her baby? Can we see some references to the father's needs being the priority, and then balance them by including some possible solutions to the problem? I think both could be presented briefly, those few sentences as it stands make it appear as though the father has the absolute power to take away a mother's choice. And maybe in some places they do, but to say so and not mention any alternative seems unbalanced.
This article overlooks the physiological fact that a healthy new mother will automatically produce breast milk after childbirth, whether she wants to or not. Modern medicine does have the capability to artificially curb the lactation process, but the POV of the article ignores the fact that her developed lactation and the breastfeeding of her newborn is the natural, healthy course of events. The POV takes the position that breastfeeding is a chosen alternative to formula feeding; when in fact it is the opposite that is true.
The “History of Breastfeeding” barely touches on mothers who actually breastfed their own children, moving quickly to alternative methods and the employment of wet nurses. There is no discussion of the inherent advantages of breastfeeding for a woman and child in the wilderness, or in a similar primitive setting, as compared to the modern world. This would more accurately titled as the “History of Breastfeeding Alternatives”.
There is no discussion of how life in a primitive setting favors breastfeeding and lactation development as a survival tool for her family (and/or tribe) to help ensure their strength and survival under extreme conditions such as seasonal or winter famine, or recovery from illness or injury, both of which were commonplace in the primitive wilderness environment. A woman’s inherent ability to induce lactation and release her internal stores as food for others increases her value to a mate or to the tribe, thus ensuring her protection and survival in the harshness of the wilderness. This supports the theory that during early development of the human species women nursed their mates as well as their young and maintained their milk supply for most of their adult lives.
While this article is overall very good, it appears to look at breastfeeding as an oddity of human nature instead of the natural and normal human function that it is. It also leaves a vast area of related material unexplored. See "Roman Charity" to learn more. Mlklvr 18:45, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
"Mothers can also buy or hire breast pumps to extract the milk, if nipple pain becomes unbearable."
While this is not an untrue statement (yes, mothers can get a pump and use it when they have sore nipples) it is based on the incorrect assumption that the use of the pump is a solution to the problem of sore nipples. It gives the impression that a mother can simply switch to pumping instead of nursing from the breast, give her baby the expressed milk, and all will be well. That is not the case. I have never seen pumping offered as a first choice solution for soreness in any reputable breastfeeding resource, nor was that a solution in the eyes of the lactation consultants I saw after my son was born. I have seen it offered merely as a very short term way to obtain a brief respite from difficulties, while in the process of solving the problem, but with the caveat that pumping and bottlefeeding have their own drawbacks and possible complications that would be better avoided.
Most breastfeeding experts agree that the main cause of soreness is incorrect latch which can have various causes. Pumping does nothing to remove the cause of the problem, and in some cases can itself be painful. A breastfeeding mother with sore nipples must seek help to determine the cause of the problem so that it may be solved. I would like to see this sentence replaced with a fact based, expert supported statement about what a mother can do if she has sore nipples.
In addition, the extremely negative use of descriptions of pain make it easy to see why some parts of this article are being seen as biased. Referring to breastfeeding as something that has to be "endured" and can cause "unbearable" pain seems less than neutral. We can surely describe the very real problems some breastfeeding mothers have in a truly neutral way, without resorting to descriptives that seem designed to evoke negative reaction.
Once again I've just had to revert changes to this article because an unregistered user has introduced biased wording. This time it changed the lead, which is supposed to give a summary of the article rather than present a one-sided view.
I wholeheartedly agree that breastfeeding is the correct thing to do, but we must reflect that some people choose not to. Yes, it is recommended by WHO and most other organisations but the rewrites keep adding a wording bias which almost implies that you're an unfit mother if you don't breastfeed your child.
Please can these changes be discussed here before changing the article, just like the above two sections are working to a solution. violet/riga (t) 11:40, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Just quoting you where you said "adding a wording bias which almost implies that you're an unfit mother if you don't breastfeed your child." -- hardly an absurd accusation when it's there in your own words. Scientific *fact* is that all other feeding methods are inferior. Says nothng about fitness as a mother as you seem to feel it implies. Or are you trying to say that you believe that formula is just as good?
I would like to challenge the references used for the article. Ive read that you are refereing to textbooks for your information, but not citing the texts used. The following are texts acknowledge by nursing professionals for the accurate information regarding lactation. Whle the the books cited by the royal College of Midwives and LLL are excellent books, I'm dissapointed that not more texts have been cited as reference material. The following are additonal sources that can be used:
Riordan, j. Breastfeeding and Human Lactation. Boston; London: Jones & Bartlett, Third editon, 2004
Lawrence, R. Breastfeeding: A Guide for the Medical Profession. St. Louis, MO: CV Mosby, fith edition
Wilson-Clay, B. and Hoover, K. The Breastfeeding Atlas. Austin, TX: Lactnews Press, Second Edition
Journal of Human Lactation.
I would be happy to continue to post reference material for your use.
I feel that the current article covers only the Human POV. Is it that the name is not applied to other animals? -- Sundar ( talk · contribs) 11:25, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for clarifying. -- Sundar ( talk · contribs) 12:07, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
Wasn't that lactation or suckling (both now redirect here)? Animals do not have breasts - they have udders and teats. JFW | T@lk 12:14, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Is this the best title for this section? The effects cited only occur if the mother is engaging in negative activities, such as drugs. Thus, it's not that breastfeeding has a negative effect, but that there can be negative outcomes if the mother engages in negative activities. I'm not able to offer a better term, but I think the current title is misleading. If breastfeeding itself has negative effects, then those should be included -- but they aren't right now. -- Westendgirl 06:55, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Teething is not a problem for breastfeeding. Source: http://www.lalecheleague.org/NB/NBMarApr99p36.html
Request page protection for article I have requested page protection for the article as Violetriga's unilateral reverting of my adding a balanced view is against policy. It is not allowed to revert such an edit, rather adding the balanced opposing view to an article is good policy. Also Violetriga has abused the 3 revert rule here and also broken the policy of starting an edit war rather than discussion. Kreen
Kreen, if you are right you have to back up your claim. Stating that feeding in public should be allowed under European law, and that the UK law is "illegal", is original research unless you can support this. Protection will not help you; VioletRiga is an administrator, and you are not. This means that she can edit the article, and you cannot. I'd go for a request for comment if you're desperate. JFW | T@lk 20:28, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
there's concerns of breast feeding to sagging. Though, the article doesn't mention it? Xah Lee 23:17, 2005 Apr 4 (UTC)
Could be a good topic to touch on in a "breastfeeding myths" section. It comes up freqently among mothers in conversation. Hormones like relaxin soften tissues during pregnancy, and engorgement happens when the milk comes in whether a mother breastfeeds or not. Genetics also plays a part.
I think this article should take into account the information presented in male lactation and breast. In particular the addition to ,or re-wording of, the initial paragraph that takes into account that 'breastfeeding' is a word that applies to the feeding of a baby with human milk and only strictly applies to the breast because that feeding is assumed to take place by women. I feel that the emphasis on breastfeeding relating strictly to the breasts as opposed to the act of feeding could be considered an anachonistic POV. -- 219.88.188.28 23:08, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I find it rather irritating that weaning redirects here. The top of the breastfeeding article makes no mention of weaning. Weaning gets only a 2nd-level section, buried way down near the bottom. AlbertCahalan 04:42, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Does it seem to anyone else as if the paragraph on marijuana is hinting at defending the use of marijuana during pregnancy? unsigned comment by User:68.18.105.26.
I just noticed today that there was no Wikipedia entry for Supplemental Nursing System, so I wrote a stub... anyone who would like to go add to it would be welcome. Also, as I wrote it up, I made reference to the advice available from a lactation consultant only to discover that there is no article on that topic yet. Would anyone be willing to get that started? Thanks in advance! Mamawrites 17:44, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
I am aware that this topic has been controversial in the past. However, I felt it necessary to make some minor changes to the article.
I hope that everyone will agree. - Jakew 13:37, August 27, 2005 (UTC)
All of those thirdparties think highly of Cirp.Org. ¿What do people think about Circs.Org? Not one third party has endorsed Circs.Org. Before I restore the link to the unbiased site which publishes both side because it knows the truth is on its side, let us compare Cirp.Org and Circs.Org on breastfeeding
Cirp.Org: 47 articles
Circs.Org: 0 articles
Circs.Org seems about as Fair and Balanced as FoxNews.Com, while Cirp.Org is full of articles published in peerreviewed Journals listing both the good and the bad because we know that the truth is on our side.
—
— Ŭalabio‽ 21:01:38, 2005-08-27 (UTC)
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— Ŭalabio‽ 22:51:51, 2005-08-27 (UTC)
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— Ŭalabio‽ 20:16:06, 2005-08-28 (UTC)
For goodness' sake, I've removed the Howard reference. There are many problems with the whole issue, and I think a small study of 44 infants which looked only into paracetamol (as opposed to e.g. prilocaine) and only addressed Gomco clamp circumcions is not really encyclopedia material. The findings cannot possibly be extended to daily practice. In my personal experience, I've never seen an infant breastfeed as good as in the hours after a non-anaesthetised circumcision! JFW | T@lk 21:27, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
Oh, anyone for sucrose ( PMID 15266438)? JFW | T@lk 21:27, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
When donating blood, one looks away and thinks about something else. ¿Is looking away and thinking about something else sufficient for surgery, or does one need anæsthesia?
Many lactation consultants are aware of the fact that infant circumcision may be a factor in breastfeeding failure.[1] Boys who are circumcised in the hospital before a successful pattern of breastfeeding has been established are at greater risk for breastfeeding failure than boys who are circumcised several days after birth when a successful pattern of breastfeeding has been established.[2] In their book Impact of Birthing Practices on Breastfeeding: Protecting the Mother and Baby Continuum Mary Kroeger and Linda J. Smith discuss circumcision as a possible cause for breastfeeding failure.[3]
Anesthesia used during the surgery does not reduce the post-operative pain caused by pressure on the circumcision wound during breastfeeding. If a lactation consultant is aware that pain from the circumcision wound may be a factor in a boy refusing to breastfeed, she can suggest ways for the mother to hold her son to reduce the pressure on the circumcision wound.
The article on the CIRP web site contains information that is relevant to the breastfeeding article including a list of 52 references related to circumcision and breastfeeding.
1. Lee N. Circumcision and Breastfeeding. [Letter] J Hum Lact 2000;16(4):295. http://cirp.org/library/birth/lee1/
2. Caplan L. Circumcision and breastfeeding: a response to Nikki Lee's letter. [Letter] J Hum Lact 2001;17(1):7. http://www.cirp.org/library/birth/caplan1/
3. Mary Kroeger with Linda J. Smith. Impact of Birthing Practices on Breastfeeding: Protecting the Mother and Baby Continuum. Sudbury, Massachusetts: Jones and Bartlett Publishers, 2003: pp. 197-8. ( ISBN 0-7637-2481-5). http://www.cirp.org/library/birth/kroeger1/
DanBlackham 02:54, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
No Jake, I cited two letters by International Board Certified Lactation Consultants which were published in the Journal of Human Lactation and a quote from the book by Mary Kroeger and Linda J. Smith who are recognized experts in the field of breastfeeding. The book by Kroeger and Smith is an important reference book for lactation consultants. The quote from Kroeger and Smith's book is definitely noteworthy because they are recognized experts in the field of human lactation. -- DanBlackham 10:18, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
The letters and the quote from the book support the fact that infant circumcision may be a factor in breast refusal. -- DanBlackham 10:45, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
The article explicitly states that "Pain or discomfort; for example, due to recent surgery or medical procedures" can be a cause of breast refusal. It does not state that there is a direct link whereby all newborns having a medical procedure will have feeding difficulties. Circumcision can cause problems, mainly discomfort, and that can lead to feeding troubles.
I'm sure that some of you have checked the archive about this, but the inclusion of any mention of circumcision was based on a compromise. The article used to have a much bigger chunk of text about the two things, but that was certainly not appropriate. I personally don't think it needs a mention over and above it being hinted at with "recent surgery or medical procedures", but to maintain the previous peace I lean towards keeping a small reference to it.
I don't want this to fall into the trap of being decided by a poll, so please do continue the discussion, and don't edit war in the article. violet/riga (t) 07:14, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
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— Ŭalabio‽ 05:06:49, 2005-09-05 (UTC)
To avoid boring those uninterested in the circumcision topic, I propose to move the preceding discussion to Talk:Breastfeeding/circumcision. Comments? - Jakew 09:55, August 29, 2005 (UTC)
I believe I have a way to rewrite the paragraph:
Painful medical procedures can interfere with establishment of breastfeeding. [21] Therefore one should therefore use anæsthesia for necessary medical procedures, and avoid all unnecessary procedures, whether medical or not, such as branding, circumcision, piercing, tatooing, et cetera. The unnecessary procedure of circumcision is especially to be avoided because not only does does the unnecessary procedure of circumcision cause unjustifiable torturous pain, but in order to latch properly, the baby must place his genitals against his mother, causing excruciating pain just as the baby starts feeding.
It seems like this version above says it all. It is accurate. I belive we should add it to the article.
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— Ŭalabio‽ 04:51:50, 2005-08-30 (UTC)
I cannot speak for anyone but myself, but if the circumcisionadvocates will leave the main article alone, so shall I. Michael Glass did some excellent wordsmithing of the introduction, so I would like an exception for all sections not involving, pain and medical procedures. As a sign of goodfaith, I shall withdraw to the talkpage firstly. I ask that you look at my proposed rewrite when you rewrite the section (it still needs wordsmithing). I shall now voluntarily withdraw to just the talkpage. I shall not edit the sections about pain and medical procedures unless circumcisionadvocates force mine hand.
— Ŭalabio‽ 21:36:10, 2005-08-30 (UTC)
I have noted that 'Breastfeeding' is a featured article. Therefore I hesitate to make changes. However, I feel that it would be better with simpler wording.
For example: the opening paragraphs could read as follows:
The idea of such changes is not to introduce bias or spin, but to make the article easier to read. This is helpful to everyone. What do others think? Michael Glass 10:51, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
OK. I'll make the changes with that amendment. Michael Glass 13:02, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
I hope the further changes that I have made help to clarify the meaning of the passages concerned and simplify the wording. I believe we should always strive to write as simply and clearly as possible. Michael Glass 14:32, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
I believe the following links have evidence that should be considered:
1 AAP Policy Statement - The Assessment and management of Acute Pain in Infants, Children and Adolescents This says:
2 The following comments from the Journal of Human Lactation are also worth pondering:
3 A randomised, controlled study of pain relief for circumcision had this to say:
With evidence such as this it is not surprising that the Breastfeeding Answeer Book contains statements like this:
In the light of all this I think it is in order to include a carefully worded statement in the article on breastfeeding about the likely disruptive effect of circumcision on breastfeeding, and suggesting ways to ameliorate the situation. Michael Glass 13:54, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
You're right, except that whole thread seemed to be a pack of red herrings, with far too much heat and not nearly enough light. What I was hoping to do was to find reasonably objective and balanced evidence and then write something reasonable, balanced and NPOV on the question that would be broadly acceptable to reasonable people, whatever their views on infant circumcision. Although this endeavour might appear to be quixotic, I have a feeling we might be able to bring it off. Michael Glass 01:06, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
—
— Ŭalabio‽ 06:50:56, 2005-09-01 (UTC)
Without wishing to spoil the bunfight over circumcision, I would like to get back to the effect of circumcision on the establishment of breastfeeding. I believe that something like the following could be inserted into the article.
I believe that this statement is a fair summary of the evidence that I have seen. I would be interested in others' opinions about it. Michael Glass 06:27, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for your feedback, Jake. Here are my responses:
The above were simply responses to what you have written. However, there are other points that should be made.
I will insert a quotation from the AAP on pain management, together with a reference to the Jewish and Gentile lactation consultants. I hope that this will satisfy most people that the issue has been dealt with fairly. Michael Glass 13:52, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
From The Womanly Art of Breastfeeding. 3rd edition. La Leche League International. Franklin Park, IL. 1981. pages 92-93
I am interested to note the use of the term opinion piece. It seems to be a very convenient way of branding, discounting and discarding invonvenient evidence. For instance, when two lactation consultants say that very early circumcision has a disruptive effect on the establishment of breast feeding [32] [33], all you have to do is say opinion piece! press the delete button, and presto! there's an edit that claims to be as NPOV as can be.
In this case, I find the two word argument rather light on reason and logic. I would be grateful if those who have used this term would explain how the opinion of two lactation consultants can be discounted almost without argument.
I would suggest that the letters of the two lactation consultants should be given some weight because:
Of course it is possible that there are other factors that we should consider. If so, I would be interested to be informed of them. Michael Glass 14:05, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
Jake, I take your point about anectdotal evidence being weaker than some other forms of evidence. However, this form of evidence has repeatedly led to previously unrecognised facts. In this case, the opinions of the women have some value because they are registered nurses who work in the field of human lactation. This isn't just a question of an appeal to authority. Indeed your reaction = of laughter = suggests that they have little authority, at least in your eyes. It is that their knowledge and expertise give their opinions some value.
There is a story, perhaps apocryphical = that Mohammed was once asked a question about the artificial insemination of date palms. His response was to immediately defer to the farmers, saying that they knew their business. Now date farmers mightn't know everything even about date palms. However, only a fool would discount their opinions altogether.
In the case in question, the women are both qualified nurses who work in the area of lactation. It strikes me as quite arrogant to airily dismiss their opinions as if they don't count.
Finally, we all have biases, prejudices and blind spots. It's part of the human condition. Drawing attention to this fact isn't to suggest bad faith on the part of others but to ask the others to consider whether the opinions of the two nurses have been too hastily cast aside. Michael Glass 15:13, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
Jake, I have reviewed both letters and there is nothing in them to indicate the term lactation consultant. I'm sorry that I used a term that made you see them in a poor light. I think these points should be noted:
Therefore a careful reading of the letters confirms that both nurses observed something that is confirmed in the AAP policy document, that the pain of circumcision could disrupt breastfeeding. In fact, the only substantial difference that I could observe between the AAP policy document and the letters of the two nurses is in the remedy that both suggest. The AAP suggests using pain relief; the nurses suggest that circumcision be delayed until breastfeeding is well established. These different approaches, of course, are not mutually exclusive.
Therefore I believe this exchange of views between us has established two things:
Now I am not arguing that the nurses' observations are as rigorous as a double blind trial. Nevertheless, I believe that it is inappropriate and unfair to dismiss their observations as of no consequence. I believe that a short reference to their observations would be of interest to readers, as it confirms what the article already says but it suggests a different way of minimising the disruption to breastfeeding. Michael Glass 12:01, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
Michael, why are you so desperate to push these letters? They are anecdotal, far too weak to warrant inclusion. Think for a moment: how would you feel about inclusion of a letter (elsewhere, obviously) from a doctor stating that most of his heart disease patients were uncircumcised? Would you be so keen to include them? I think - I hope that you'd oppose it. I would, for the same reasons I've stated here. Jakew 12:46, September 9, 2005 (UTC) As a further note, the AAP reviewed existing evidence, rather than finding new data. Jakew 12:50, September 9, 2005 (UTC)
Good point, Jay. If you look at [37] you will find a report of a prospective, randomized, double blind, placebo-controlled, clinical trial. I have added this reference to the article. Michael Glass 22:52, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
"Lactation Consultant" is a professional title like "Registered Nurse" or "Medical Doctor".
"Professional Standard for Lactation Consultation"
"International Board Certified Lactation Consultants (IBCLC), Registered Lactation Consultants (RLC) help mothers breastfeed their babies, in challenging situations. By gaining the experience and education necessary to pass the International Board Certification Examination, Board Certified specialists in lactation management prove to their patients and colleagues on the healthcare team that they are competent practitioners - committed to the health and well-being of breastfeeding mothers and babies in their care." [38]
-- DanBlackham 19:58, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
I am interested in the opinions of people familiar with breastfeeding who are not part of the circumcision discussion. Jake says The Breastfeeding Answer Book published by La Leche League International is an "opinion piece". He claims it is Nancy Mohrbacher's opinion and her opinion should not be given much weight.
Is The Breastfeeding Answer Book just an "opinion piece" or is it an authoritative reference book in the field of breastfeeding? -- DanBlackham 20:14, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
BAB is considered an authoritative reference. Workshops and such produced by LLLI qualify for CME credits for doctors and nurses, so the organization carries weight in the medical community as well. This book is a compilation of over 46 years of evidence-based research and caring for breastfeeding mothers, and is overseen by a medical advisory board. When Jake breastfeeds a child of his own for at least nine months he can re-read the book (He HAS read it, right?) and decide how many inaccuracies it has or doesn't have. When he then goes on to log 5,000 patient contact hours under medical supervision, 45 hours of medical courses specific to human lactation and pass an hours-long board exam, he can continue to deride "lactation consultants" at his leisure. (Although I admit, these are only requirements for an IBCLC. There are complete morons out there who can complete only a two-day workshop on breastfeeding basics and are allowed to call themselves "lactation consultant." From what I have seen, these people are just about as useful as "urination consultants.")
Once upon a time a man had the temerity to claim that the world is round.
'Show us your evidence!' said his peers.
He replied, 'But everybody knows that the world is round!'
They retorted 'That's not evidence. That's only an opinion about an opinion. You have committed a logical fallacy '.
The man went away and thought about this. He then read a book or two, and they also said that the world was round. So, being a little more cautious this time, he took the biggest, oldest and most authoritative book he could find and showed it to his critics. 'See' he said, 'The world is indeed round.'
'Another logical fallacy!' replied his critics. This is an appeal to authority. You'll have to do a lot better than that!'
That stumped him. Then he realised that there would soon be an eclipse of the moon. He arranged for his critics to see the eclipse, where the shadow of the round earth covered the moon. However, when they saw the eclipse they said, 'Appearances can be deceptive. We need a photograph and a diagram.'
The man searched the internet and found a photo and a diagram and showed them to his critics. 'Ah, yes,' they said. 'This is an American internet site. You'll have to do better than that!'
He then found a British site and showed them that. 'Yes, but ' said his critics, 'This is still an English-speaking country. What about an Islamic website? What about a Russian website? What about a Christian website?'
He went away again and after much time and labour and expense came back with an Islamic website, a Russian website and a Christian website that all said that the world was round. He even had translations of the website to ensure that he had got it right.
'Aha!' said his critics. 'But are the translators accredited?'
At this point the man decided that he had better things to do with his time. So he decided to go to Wikipedia and do a little editing.
Have a nice day, everybody. Michael Glass 23:22, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
I find it unacceptable that circumcision is the only medical procedure mentioned specifically as a cause for breast refusal. Together with the CIRP link (why not put a full reference to the Howard article in the "reference" section?) is it an ugly scar on the article that there has been a war of words between circumcision activists. I do not deny that a freshly cut baby may be harder to feed or that they sometimes have hypotylenolaemia (it's up to y'all to decipher this one), but this just bears out that there are no other procedures newborns could undergo - quod non. JFW | T@lk 21:04, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
Nor is Wikipedia a place where information should be suppressed simply because others disagree with it. Of course, propaganda is something that should not be a part of Wikipedia, but at least propaganda is upfront and in your face. A much more serious problem is the inadvertent or deliberate suppression of a point of view, just because some people find it confronting, offensive or wrong.
In this case there is some evidence that circumcision can disrupt the establishment of breastfeeding. Some people find anything that seems to criticise circumcision as too confronting, so they want to censor or suppress any mention of this issue. I believe that this is profoundly wrong. I believe that it is better for all of us to work together to get this information across in a fair and balanced way. Michael Glass 10:50, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes. It tells me that some people don't mind mentioning recent surgery, as long as you don't mention circumcision. Now as circumcision is the most common surgery on infants, that's a bit like describing a room but ignoring the elephant in it.
Circumcision can disrupt breastfeeding. Because of this, it should be mentioned. Now I don't mind discussing how it can best be mentioned. However, it should not be censored out of the article altogether. I invite those who may not be inclined to agree with me to discuss how we can do this best. Michael Glass 12:49, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
Come on! There is a problem here, and it is only tangentially connected to the rights and wrongs of circumcision itself. There is clear evidence that circumcision may disrupt breastfeeding, and this is especially the case if the circumcision happens before breastfeeding has been established. This needs to be stated clearly and frankly in the article. Hints, and obscure links in rreference section are simply not good enough.
What is going on is a determined effort to stifle information and I object to it. Michael Glass 21:03, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
I believe that this page is valuable because of the links it provides [ttp://cirp.org/library/birth/] I am sensitive to the concerns of those who feel it is biased. That is why I suggest we have a NPOV note to alert people to its point of view. Then those who find it unacceptable will have fair warning. Despite this the link has been removed. The reason given is:
non-encyclopedic OK, but is any other link encyclopedic?
partisan source This is a partisan way of describing a source of information that the writer objects to.
source only peripherally related to breastfeeding Really? Let's look at some of the headings:
I don't think I need to go on. Surely this shows that the charge of being peripherally related to breastfeeding simply cannot be sustained. So let's work on adding accurate and unbiased information, not deleting and censoring it. Michael Glass 12:42, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
Of course it has a strong point of view. Yes it does have its own agenda and, like all of us, it is perhaps not as willing to respond to cirticism as it should be. Nevertheless, the links are useful and the point of view is worth considering. That's why I think that a link from the article is in order.
What I find much more concerning is the determination of a couple of people to downplay or suppress information or links about circumcision and breastfeeding problems. This is far more worrying. Michael Glass 20:39, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
Only Jay and Jake appear to have expressed support for this position here. Michael Glass 11:38, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
I find the denial of suppressing information to be disingenuous. I have tried my best to ensure that the article on breastfeeding has balanced and fair information on some possible effects of circumcision on breastfeeding. Virtually every attempt has been suppressed. Even links to articles have been routinely rejected on flimsy grounds. The one or two links that were finally let stand were placed in a list of references so long that it almost guarantees that they are overlooked. Despite the evidence that circumcision can disrupt breastfeeding, any direct reference to this is removed. Then the people who do this turn round and claim that they are protecting the article from bias! Michael Glass 11:38, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
I respect Jake's intelligence and his ability to consider other people's arguments. However, I must object to the way he did the edit on the link to surgery. The link I provided was about the effect on breastfeeding of recent surgery, including circumcision. The replacement link said nothing about circumcision and nothing about breastfeeding, so it was quite irrelevant. The only reason I can see for doing this was to suppress a point of view that Jake objected to. If Jake had voiced some objection to the link that would have been fair. However, changing the link in a way that could be taken to imply that the same or similar information was elsewhere on Wikipedia is disappointing. Michael Glass 11:38, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Now I see that Jake has replaced a bad link with a good link on breastfeeding and surgery. This is an asset to the article. However, as circumcision is the most common procedure on infant boys it deserves its own reference. Michael Glass 12:01, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes, Jake, is is covered, cloaked and concealed by the use of the word 'surgery'. I think it is disingenuous to pretend otherwise.
Please look again at what I am aiming for: a short, simple statement that points out that circumcision can disrupt breastfeeding and a link to further information that would explain how to minimise this problem.
If we can come to some kind of consensus on other edits I believe we can do the same here. We already accept that surgery of any kind can disrupt the establishment of breastfeeding. We would both agree that circumcision is the most common form of surgery on newborn boys. Our only area of contention is in how to present the evidence fairly. It shouldn't take much more to bridge the gap. Michael Glass 13:04, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Please see a more relevant Pepsi analogy below. [39] -- DanBlackham 06:58, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
Jake, a charge of activism from you is laughable. You are the author of the pro-circumcision website, circs.org, and your edits and comments on your own user page make it clear that you have a very great interest and involvement in circumcision. While I respect your intelligence and value many of your contributions to Wikipedia, please don't come the raw prawn.
You say: I am neither in favour of or against neonatal circumcision. Rather, I am in favour of parents making an informed decision. An informed decision requires accurate and honest information, so I am opposed to attempts to mislead. All I ask is that you live up to your own ideals.
Jayig, what is evidence of activism: arguing for relevant, documented information to be put in an article or making every effort to minimise or remove that information? If both are evidence of activism, why have you chosen to support suppression and censorship? Michael Glass 20:56, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
I know that Jayig has made a great contribution to Wikipedia but I am disappointed at the intemperate tone of the comment above and his apparent assumption of bad faith on my part. However, I am most disappointed that an Administrator of Wikipedia should make a misleading description of his edit.
He said: restore proper Wikipedia link, remove link to one-topic and biased activist site. What he did was to remove a link. Therefore the first part of his description is demonstrably false. Now about the second part of his description. The link was to a policy statement of the American Academy of Pediatrics entitled The Assessment and Management of Acute Pain in Infants, Children, and Adolescents. It was a link to this article that Jayig chose to describe as a link to one-topic and biased activist site because it was published on the CIRP website. I leave it to the reader to decide if this was fair dealing.
I, for one, expect more of an Administrator of Wikipedia. Michael Glass 11:53, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
I found this article via one of the links at the bottom of the article: Do exclusively breast-fed infants need vitamin D supplements? The discussion in that article dovetails the recommendations I've heard given by several breastfeeding-advocate pediatricians. I'm thinking a couple of sentences about the possibility of rickets and vitamin D deficiency, and when supplementing is appropriate (and when it is not needed) would be a good addition to the article. Anyone else have an opinion on this? Nandesuka 12:06, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
I have added a link to an important policy statement about the control of pain in infants and children. I have chosen the CIRP reprint for the following reasons:
I hope that those who are dedicated to providing clear, accurate and unbiased information to parents will bear this in mind. Michael Glass 21:14, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Oh Jayjg, ¿could you please explain your removal of this link to the AAP Policy Statement - The Assessment and Management of Acute Pain in Infants, Children, and Adolescents in the edit “remove link to one-topic and biased activist site”? I can see nothing wrong with the paper. ¿Is the AAP an one-topic activistic site? Marking the relevant text in a long paper does not seem a very good reason for calling a policystatement biased. ¿Who other than Jayjg and maybe (he has not yet chimed into this conversation yet) user Jakew has a problem with this source?
—
— Ŭalabio‽ 03:46, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Walabio, it is quite obvious from Jay's comment that he refers to CIRP, not the AAP. The original article would be preferable (indeed I would argue that we should always prefer the original to a reprint). It would be preferable not only because of the risk of introducing errors during republication, but also because highlighting a few passages to make a point subtly alters the apparent meaning of a document.
Secondly, while the original is preferable, it is still not appropriate. That article discusses surgery and pain in general, but only mentions breastfeeding once, in passing. It is not even general information, since they only discuss this in connection with circumcision. As stated previously, there is no need to single out circumcision. If we want to link to general information on pain, we should prefer Wikipedia's article. Jakew 11:10, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
You made some good points, Jake. However, before I want a reference to the CIRP reprint, I would prefer to have the following paragraph quoted in the article:
Please note that I quoted more than CIRP highlighted, to give a more balanced picture of what the AAP wrote. Despite your charge of pushing an agenda, this is not my intention.
I agree that the article should be read as a whole because it is an important paper about the importance of managing pain in a humane manner. A short quotation in the text and a link to the AAP website would be ideal.
I am surprised at the spin you have put on what I wrote above. The AAP policy says It is unacceptable that almost no potent analgesics have received approval from the Food and Drug Administration for use in children. My summary of this read almost no powerful analgesics have received official approval.I quoted both this and the other statement you alluded to,
A preference to using authoritative sources, where appropriate, is consistent with Wikipedia policy to cite sources. It is perverse to assert that this means I favour other sites over Wikipedia. They simply serve different purposes.
Finally, the text of the link was pain, and that was what the whole article was about. Therefore the link was accurately described. Michael Glass 15:26, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
I have edited the second paragraph to:
I have edited the third paragraph to:
As this is near the beginning of the article it's important that it reads well and is NPOV. I hope that others will look at these paragraphs closely to see if there are other ways in which they can be improved. Michael Glass 00:56, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Jayig, under the heading, "Edits to the second and third paragraphs (above) you wrote:
This may give others a false impression of what you did. Your edit had nothing to do with the second and third paragraphs. Your edit was to a dot point about breast refusal which reads:
You removed the links to two articles:
and
University Health Care: Surgery and the Breastfeeding Baby
You then replaced these links with Wiki links to pain and surgery, neither of which said anything about infant feeding.
Why did you remove relevant links and replace them with less relevant links?
Michael Glass 11:53, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Fine. In other cases when I have added direct links to information, they have not been challenged. Why the double standard? Michael Glass 21:16, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Simple. The links I added are more relevant. However, I'm quite content to have both Wiki links and the more relevant links in the text. Any objections? Michael Glass 08:37, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
I have now added those links, and I expect them to be left in place. However, I still feel that it is quite unsatisfactory that mention of the disruptive effect that painful procedures such as circumcision can have on the establishment of breastfeeding is still excluded from the text of the article. I believe that this short passage from the AAP policy that follows would be appropriate.
What do others think? Michael Glass 21:42, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
No. It's not explicit about circumcision. No explicit reference to the effect of circumcision on breastfeeding has been allowed to stand. In fact, your last edit to the article was to remove an explicit reference to the disruptive effect of circumcision on breastfeeding from the list of references! That is a measure of the length that you will go to remove any explicit reference to a well documented cause of problems in breastfeeding.
Why is there such resistance to including any such comment? Why?
i am not asking for a diatribe against circumcision. All I want to see is something short, factual, frank and moderate abnout this issue This statement would serve that purpose well.
What about it? . Michael Glass 12:15, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
The adverse affect of infant circumcision on breastfeeding is well documented by people familiar with problems of breast refusal. The determined effort by supporters of infant circumcision to remove any mention of circumcision from the article is a form of activism that is contrary to the spirit of Wikipedia. Please recall that Wikipedia is not a soapbox. -- DanBlackham 07:36, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
If 80 words is a problem, how about just a couple of words? Like this:
Now to say that e.g., circumcision focuses the whole article on circumcision is a complete nonsense. Michael Glass 12:26, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Irrelevant. Michael Glass 15:09, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
A more relevant Pepsi analogy would be if an article on caffeine said, "Caffeinated beverages, including caffeinated soda, may cause health problems in children" and a Pepsi salesman and members of a Pepsi Club removed "including caffeinated soda" because they did not want anything in the article to reflect negatively on Pepsi. -- DanBlackham 06:52, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
True. I'll try another way to explain why it is important to mention circumcision explicitly in the article.
However, there are flow-on issues that also impinge on this question.
Jay's suggestion that Michael is "trying to focus this article about breastfeeding on circumcision" is absurd. One paragraph on the negative effect of infant circumcision on breastfeeding is reasonable and appropriate. One paragraph on the relationship between infant circumcision and breast refusal does not "focus" the article on circumcision. -- DanBlackham 07:15, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
Finally, Jake is quite right in his suggestion that the question of breastfeeding and circumcision should be discussed in the articles on circumcision. This is true, and I look forward to working with him to include more of such material in Medical analysis of circumcision. Michael Glass 12:56, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
True. Therefore I will link this section of [Breastfeeding] to that part of [Medical analysis of circumcision], like this:
Michael Glass 21:53, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
Jake, I see that you've removed a link to a Wiki article. Why did you remove the link to Medical Analysis of Circumcision # Pain, stress, trauma and interference with breastfeeding? Trying to hide something? Michael Glass 15:50, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
I see you've removed that link again. You really do look as if you're trying to hide something. Michael Glass 16:15, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
One link is to the pain of surgery. The other link is to pain in general, but specifically mentions the disruptive effect that circumcision can have on breastfeeding. A proper discussion of circumcision and breastfeeding would address the issue squarely and would mention the following:
Instead of delete, delete, delete, censor, censor, censor I expect your co-operation in getting these facts across in a moderate and responsible way. Michael Glass 23:08, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
I have added a lot more links to the article and rearranged them somewhat and adding two new headings. The reason for this was that I found so much material on the question of breastfeeding that I had to order them in some way. The two new headings are on pain and on the risks of artificial feeding. I hope that people find that the linked articles are useful and interesting, but if anyone has any concerns about any of the articles or the arrangement of the links, I hope that they will discuss their concerns here. Also, I hope that others will add more useful links. Michael Glass 15:24, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
Isn't anesthesia a cause of breast refusal? Would it not be "refusal" if the baby is too sleepy or numb to respond? AlbertCahalan 01:24, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
It seems to me that lactation should have its own article, rather than redirecting to breastfeeding. I'd like to see an article that treats lactation as a physiological process, across taxa, from the framework of evolutionary biology. The development of lactation was an important evolutionary innovation, shaping (in some sense, defining) the mammalian taxon.
The breastfeeding article is NOT the appropriate forum to treat these considerations; lactation and breastfeeding are not synonymous, nor do their respective denotations bear sufficient overlap to justify a redirect (especially at the expense of an important and informative entry for lactation).
I submit that the redirect be reconsidered.-- NiOrtiga 19:18, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
The JAMA this week had a study on duration of lactation vs incidence of diabetes in the mothers [54]. I'm not (yet) suggesting we put this in, but may be part of a longer paragraph discussing other health benefits for the mother (e.g. decreased osteoporosis and breast cancer risk). JFW | T@lk 08:04, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
Some parts of the article read a bit like a instruction manual, and some of the references are done in the text rather than at the end. Andjam 06:27, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
This article uses the term "alveoli" with no explanation or link. I found it confusing because I thought the alveoli were in the lungs. Our dab page at Alveolus (disambiguation) clarifies that the term can refer to any of several different structures. Pending the creation of an article about the breast alveoli, I've wikilinked "alveoli" to that dab page. It would be great if someone knowledgeable would create Mammary alveolus or whatever the proper title is. JamesMLane t c 06:37, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Some of the thumbnails are ridiculously large files for their small size. One image that is 160px by 120px is 26KB. I think if there is anyway to recompress versions of these thumbnails and use them instead it would greatly help people who arent on broadband. I am new here and not sure if there is a way to supply your own thumbnails for images. SallyB 23:28, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm new to this article, so I'm trying not to tread on toes here. What are the feelings of other editors here about going over to using inline references? I mean the kind that hyperlink to the endnotes at the bottom of the page, can't remember offhand what the style is called. It wouldn't interrupt readability too badly, and it would make it easier to tell which part is sourced by what. Kasreyn 04:14, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
The lead sentences of an article should really avoid specialised vocab. Neither "latch" nor "frenulum" are everday words, and so should be given with glossary if used so early in the piece - a link is not enough.
I'm kind of surprised this is still FA - the lead really has some problems. What does "Breast milk has been shown to be best for the child" mean? Best compared to what? The lead also makes no mention of the controversies surrounding breastfeeding, nor the difficulties encountered by the modern mother - which are exactly what the average reader would expect to find here. I'm almost tempted to add an NPOV tag (the article strongly takes a "everyone should breastfeed" stance) but will resist.
Actually there's technical vocab all the way through: "let-down reflex" - this needs explanation. "Afterpains"? "ductule system"? "alveoli"?
Poor formatting too - uses inline (ibid) references, double hyphens (--) instead of em-dashes, use of inline web references rather than <ref> links. I've nominated it at Wikipedia:Featured article review for a review. Stevage 08:45, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Are there specific reasons to prefer breastfeeding rather than bottle-feeding expressed milk? - This unsigned comment was made by 131.107.0.89 on 17:08, May 23, 2006 (UTC)