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Official name

Per this discussion, the T/CT-43 has no official name. Although I have not found the discussion as yet, there was one about "Bobcat" being a callsign for the T/CT-43. Except in rare cases, such as the SR-71 Blackbird, WP:AIR does not usually include nicknames or callsigns in article titles, and on occasion even excludes offical names fom the title. Examples are the F-111 Aardvark, F2A Buffalo, and P-40 Warhawk. If the USAF has assigned "Bobcat" as an official name since 2004/05, please provide a source for this. Thanks. - BillCJ ( talk) 06:52, 10 February 2009 (UTC) reply

BillCJ, Sorry I didn't respond sooner (7 months...wow). I can only provide you with the reference material I have seen from circa 1981, my father's copy of the Dash-2 (a.k.a. the flight manual) for the jet which has the name "Bobcat" printed on it. Next time I get to go back there I'll see if I can scan it in. The best I can provide in the meantime is a patch from the ANG showing their usage of the term. Accordingly, I'm moving it back. If this doesn't satisfy your concerns, feel free to move it back and we'll talk some more. — BQZip01 —  talk 04:06, 8 November 2009 (UTC) reply
I understood Bobcat to be just the callsign used not the official nickname, it would be nice to see something official from the USAF about the name. The official USAF factsheet doesnt mention it. And the patch could support the fact it is a Colorado ANG callsign. MilborneOne ( talk) 12:58, 8 November 2009 (UTC) reply
Air Force historians ain't what they used to be. I've never heard Bobcat as a callsign (we always used "GATOR"). Like I said before, I'm easily willing to be wrong on this one, but from my recollection, the manual I saw had "Bobcat" as the official name (just like "Stratofortress" in my B-52 manual). I'll keep digging to provide a better answer. — BQZip01 —  talk 18:22, 8 November 2009 (UTC) reply
The current AF factsheet refers to it as the "Strike Orca." It's more commonly known as "Gator," though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.183.211.203 ( talk) 05:09, 11 November 2009 (UTC) reply
Which af factsheet are you referring to? http://www.af.mil/information/factsheets/factsheet.asp?fsID=127 — BQZip01 —  talk 20:42, 11 November 2009 (UTC) reply
Looks like they updated it since 6 months ago. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.183.211.203 ( talk) 01:11, 16 November 2009 (UTC) reply
The CoANG crews call sign was "Bobcat". I scanned and uploaded the patch to the article. The Nov 2010 USAF Magazine article on the T-43 retirement refers to the a/c as T-43 Gator. I'll see what documentation the CoANG retirees have on T-43s. LanceBarber ( talk) 05:56, 4 November 2010 (UTC) reply
In discussion with a Buckley-Lowry Historian, the T-43 had no formal USAF nickname, like the F-111 had no formal name until the day it retired. "Bobcat" is the call sign of Buckley T-43 flight. BQ, please scan (or have your father scan) the document and upload it here for all to see. More investigation will continue. Thank you. LanceBarber ( talk) 04:26, 11 November 2010 (UTC) reply

The Bobcat was the Cessna AT-17/T-50/UC-78 Bobcat. This article needs to be reverted back to just T-43 until we get a scan upload to wiki from BQ's USAF T.O. or clarification USAF Hist Office on the history files from Mather AFB. LanceBarber ( talk) 03:52, 15 December 2010 (UTC) reply

That doesn't actually preclude the name having been resued for the T-43. However, one source really isn't enough to outweigh the other reliable sources which state there is no official name, and that "Bobcat" is just the aircraft's callsign. BQ's source can be added in a note that states it claims the name is "Bobcat", but it shouldn't be used int he article. I support moving the article to Boeing T-43. - BilCat ( talk) 04:31, 15 December 2010 (UTC) reply

Requested move

The result of the discussion was consensus to move the article (non-admin closure) — BQZip01 —  talk 02:41, 7 March 2011 (UTC) reply
The following discussion is preserved as an archive of a discussion regarding the page move from Boeing T-43 Bobcat → Boeing T-43 Please do not modify it.

Boeing T-43 Bobcat → Boeing T-43 — Only one source given for "Bobcat" being the official name, and it is not easily verifiable. One source really isn't enough to outweigh the other reliable sources which state there is no official name, and that "Bobcat" is just the aircraft's callsign. - BilCat ( talk) 01:09, 22 February 2011 (UTC) reply

  • Support - no common usage of this nickname. Marcus Qwertyus 01:28, 22 February 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Support the name change. LanceBarber ( talk) 04:33, 22 February 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Oppose The single source is accurate. Moreover, it never had the callsign "Bobcat" and, in both my time in training and my father's (whom both of us flew in it), the callsign was "GATOR XX". In normal USAF parlance, when the commander was aboard, the callsign was GATOR 01, the director of operations GATOR 02, etc. I see no reason NOT to include it. If the aircraft had a more common nickname, I would see no issue with putting that in, but I see no justification for just arbitrarily removing it. — BQZip01 —  talk 05:15, 22 February 2011 (UTC) reply
    I will see what I can do to get the original flight manual uploaded for all to see. As such, it IS an official Air Force and US Government document. However, I invite skepticism and can give you nothing other than my word right now. — BQZip01 —  talk 05:22, 22 February 2011 (UTC) reply
    • I'm not questioning your word, but it's still a single source. The official US goverment document that does list official designations and popular names does not include it, and no published work that I have ever seen does either. As stated before, I've no problem noting the name in the article, but it should not be in the article's title on the basis of a single source. - BilCat ( talk) 05:44, 22 February 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Support as per my comment last time as far as I can see Bobcat was just the callsign used by the aircraft when it was used by the Colorado ANG. MilborneOne ( talk) 09:11, 22 February 2011 (UTC) reply
I talked to the retired pilots, ground crew and comm guys yesterday, and confirmed again that "Bobcat" was the callsign that was used regularly at Buckley. "Gator" was NOT used at Buckley. And, none of them knew of any official aircraft name either. LanceBarber ( talk) 05:47, 24 February 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Recommend Close and change the name to remove "Bobcat". Opinion is obviously against me on this one and I'm not going to stand in the way of obvious consensus. — BQZip01 —  talk 00:14, 7 March 2011 (UTC) reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as further down the talk page). No further edits should be made to this section.

Proof we've been waiting for

T-43A Flight Manual Title Page

One of the CoANG retirees found his manual. Cheers, Lance. LanceBarber ( talk) 07:25, 31 August 2011 (UTC) reply

The old one I saw was slightly different, though was from a few years later (the last version's cover looks nothing like that). In any case, this is pretty clear evidence that it wasn't initially there. EXCELLENT find!!! Buffs ( talk) 17:02, 31 August 2011 (UTC) reply

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From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Official name

Per this discussion, the T/CT-43 has no official name. Although I have not found the discussion as yet, there was one about "Bobcat" being a callsign for the T/CT-43. Except in rare cases, such as the SR-71 Blackbird, WP:AIR does not usually include nicknames or callsigns in article titles, and on occasion even excludes offical names fom the title. Examples are the F-111 Aardvark, F2A Buffalo, and P-40 Warhawk. If the USAF has assigned "Bobcat" as an official name since 2004/05, please provide a source for this. Thanks. - BillCJ ( talk) 06:52, 10 February 2009 (UTC) reply

BillCJ, Sorry I didn't respond sooner (7 months...wow). I can only provide you with the reference material I have seen from circa 1981, my father's copy of the Dash-2 (a.k.a. the flight manual) for the jet which has the name "Bobcat" printed on it. Next time I get to go back there I'll see if I can scan it in. The best I can provide in the meantime is a patch from the ANG showing their usage of the term. Accordingly, I'm moving it back. If this doesn't satisfy your concerns, feel free to move it back and we'll talk some more. — BQZip01 —  talk 04:06, 8 November 2009 (UTC) reply
I understood Bobcat to be just the callsign used not the official nickname, it would be nice to see something official from the USAF about the name. The official USAF factsheet doesnt mention it. And the patch could support the fact it is a Colorado ANG callsign. MilborneOne ( talk) 12:58, 8 November 2009 (UTC) reply
Air Force historians ain't what they used to be. I've never heard Bobcat as a callsign (we always used "GATOR"). Like I said before, I'm easily willing to be wrong on this one, but from my recollection, the manual I saw had "Bobcat" as the official name (just like "Stratofortress" in my B-52 manual). I'll keep digging to provide a better answer. — BQZip01 —  talk 18:22, 8 November 2009 (UTC) reply
The current AF factsheet refers to it as the "Strike Orca." It's more commonly known as "Gator," though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.183.211.203 ( talk) 05:09, 11 November 2009 (UTC) reply
Which af factsheet are you referring to? http://www.af.mil/information/factsheets/factsheet.asp?fsID=127 — BQZip01 —  talk 20:42, 11 November 2009 (UTC) reply
Looks like they updated it since 6 months ago. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.183.211.203 ( talk) 01:11, 16 November 2009 (UTC) reply
The CoANG crews call sign was "Bobcat". I scanned and uploaded the patch to the article. The Nov 2010 USAF Magazine article on the T-43 retirement refers to the a/c as T-43 Gator. I'll see what documentation the CoANG retirees have on T-43s. LanceBarber ( talk) 05:56, 4 November 2010 (UTC) reply
In discussion with a Buckley-Lowry Historian, the T-43 had no formal USAF nickname, like the F-111 had no formal name until the day it retired. "Bobcat" is the call sign of Buckley T-43 flight. BQ, please scan (or have your father scan) the document and upload it here for all to see. More investigation will continue. Thank you. LanceBarber ( talk) 04:26, 11 November 2010 (UTC) reply

The Bobcat was the Cessna AT-17/T-50/UC-78 Bobcat. This article needs to be reverted back to just T-43 until we get a scan upload to wiki from BQ's USAF T.O. or clarification USAF Hist Office on the history files from Mather AFB. LanceBarber ( talk) 03:52, 15 December 2010 (UTC) reply

That doesn't actually preclude the name having been resued for the T-43. However, one source really isn't enough to outweigh the other reliable sources which state there is no official name, and that "Bobcat" is just the aircraft's callsign. BQ's source can be added in a note that states it claims the name is "Bobcat", but it shouldn't be used int he article. I support moving the article to Boeing T-43. - BilCat ( talk) 04:31, 15 December 2010 (UTC) reply

Requested move

The result of the discussion was consensus to move the article (non-admin closure) — BQZip01 —  talk 02:41, 7 March 2011 (UTC) reply
The following discussion is preserved as an archive of a discussion regarding the page move from Boeing T-43 Bobcat → Boeing T-43 Please do not modify it.

Boeing T-43 Bobcat → Boeing T-43 — Only one source given for "Bobcat" being the official name, and it is not easily verifiable. One source really isn't enough to outweigh the other reliable sources which state there is no official name, and that "Bobcat" is just the aircraft's callsign. - BilCat ( talk) 01:09, 22 February 2011 (UTC) reply

  • Support - no common usage of this nickname. Marcus Qwertyus 01:28, 22 February 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Support the name change. LanceBarber ( talk) 04:33, 22 February 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Oppose The single source is accurate. Moreover, it never had the callsign "Bobcat" and, in both my time in training and my father's (whom both of us flew in it), the callsign was "GATOR XX". In normal USAF parlance, when the commander was aboard, the callsign was GATOR 01, the director of operations GATOR 02, etc. I see no reason NOT to include it. If the aircraft had a more common nickname, I would see no issue with putting that in, but I see no justification for just arbitrarily removing it. — BQZip01 —  talk 05:15, 22 February 2011 (UTC) reply
    I will see what I can do to get the original flight manual uploaded for all to see. As such, it IS an official Air Force and US Government document. However, I invite skepticism and can give you nothing other than my word right now. — BQZip01 —  talk 05:22, 22 February 2011 (UTC) reply
    • I'm not questioning your word, but it's still a single source. The official US goverment document that does list official designations and popular names does not include it, and no published work that I have ever seen does either. As stated before, I've no problem noting the name in the article, but it should not be in the article's title on the basis of a single source. - BilCat ( talk) 05:44, 22 February 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Support as per my comment last time as far as I can see Bobcat was just the callsign used by the aircraft when it was used by the Colorado ANG. MilborneOne ( talk) 09:11, 22 February 2011 (UTC) reply
I talked to the retired pilots, ground crew and comm guys yesterday, and confirmed again that "Bobcat" was the callsign that was used regularly at Buckley. "Gator" was NOT used at Buckley. And, none of them knew of any official aircraft name either. LanceBarber ( talk) 05:47, 24 February 2011 (UTC) reply
  • Recommend Close and change the name to remove "Bobcat". Opinion is obviously against me on this one and I'm not going to stand in the way of obvious consensus. — BQZip01 —  talk 00:14, 7 March 2011 (UTC) reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as further down the talk page). No further edits should be made to this section.

Proof we've been waiting for

T-43A Flight Manual Title Page

One of the CoANG retirees found his manual. Cheers, Lance. LanceBarber ( talk) 07:25, 31 August 2011 (UTC) reply

The old one I saw was slightly different, though was from a few years later (the last version's cover looks nothing like that). In any case, this is pretty clear evidence that it wasn't initially there. EXCELLENT find!!! Buffs ( talk) 17:02, 31 August 2011 (UTC) reply

External links modified

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Cheers. — cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 05:42, 19 October 2015 (UTC) reply

Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Boeing_T-43&oldid=1205589360"

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