This article was nominated for deletion on 19 November 2009 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep.

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Here are the 2009-2010 ranking of HBCUs by USNWR:

1 Spelman College Atlanta, GA

2 Howard University Washington, DC

3 Morehouse College Atlanta, GA

4 Fisk University Nashville, TN

5 Xavier University of Louisiana New Orleans, LA

6 Hampton University Hampton, VA

6 Tuskegee University Tuskegee, AL

8 Claflin University Orangeburg, SC

9 Dillard University New Orleans, LA

So USNWR ranks two schools, Xavier and Claflin ahead of some of the "Black Ivies." So the article does not accurately reflect this.

Similarly, the 2009 Howard Fact Book cited by the article, http://www.howard.edu/facts/facts.pdf, says the market value of the endowment as of 2008 was $490.6 million. It also explained that in terms of Howard's annual budget, of $799.3 million of income, $234.3 million came from annual Federal appropriations. So the article conflates the two. I do not know of any reason that there would be a "federal endowment." Racepacket ( talk) 00:45, 20 November 2009 (UTC) reply

The statement, "Homecoming at Black Ivy member institutions is usually more elaborate than traditional celebrations and often last for an entire week." What is the comparison? Are we comparing Black Ivy League's homecomings to the other Ivy League's homecomings? How could we start to source this statement? Racepacket ( talk) 18:02, 20 November 2009 (UTC) reply

I have incorporated the references discussed in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Black Ivy League and removed the content that does not pertain to the Black Ivy League. The fraternity and sports dicussion were not unique to these particular schools, and the table assumes a defined membership for the group, while there is no consensus as to which specific schools should be classified "Black Ivy League." So I have tried to reflect all points of view as to which schools qualify and discussed the term generally. Racepacket ( talk) 19:18, 28 November 2009 (UTC) reply

• Thanks! That is the kind of editing I was hoping someone would do. -- Metropolitan90 (talk) 03:38, 1 December 2009 (UTC) reply

The attempt of the recent edits is to provide information which exemplifies the substance and relevance of the term/phrase "Black Ivy League."

This article is historically significant in the continuum of the African-American experience and as such should reflect the contributions of these institutions to the larger society as well as their significance to the African-American community.

No previous edits have been deleted but have been restructured for purposes of providing continuity. For example, the Claflin comment was shifted to the Description & Legacy section, while the Spelman #2 for sending students to med school statement was moved to the Current Status section. Also the Fleming quote was repeated three times in the article. One quote is sufficient. Other (previous) edits were either incorporated in the subtext or expanded upon.

Again, no deletions have occurred.—Preceding unsigned comment added by John E. Rhea ( talk • contribs) 04:15, 7 January 2010 (UTC) reply

• The problem with the recent edits is that they assume that only seven of the discussed schools are in the Black Ivy League. Some of the statements made do not apply to all of the potential members of this category. Also, the revisions removed the discussion of blacks in the real Ivy League following the 1960s. Remember, this article is about the group of schools not about individual schools, so it is not supposed to merely duplicate information from the articles about the individual schools. Racepacket ( talk) 23:30, 17 January 2010 (UTC) reply

After the Deletion debate, I rewrote the article to incorporate the sources discussed and to describe the current status of the term Black Ivy League and its schools using those sources. The problem is that some people have argued that the term in condescending or obsolete. The term developed at a time when the Ivy League discriminated against African-Americans. But since the 1960s, the Ivy League adopted affirmative action and now offers very attractive financial aid to the point that students from low income families can graduate debt free. There is not a similar situation with the Little Ivy League, so a comparable set of articles have not been published on the relationship between the Little Ivy League and the Ivy League. I believe the current status section should remain in the article. Racepacket ( talk) 14:17, 18 January 2010 (UTC) reply

• The recent edits do little to further the historical significance of these schools and distorts the context in which they exist. Instead, they serve to undermine the "current status" of these schools.

• The previous text (which were deleted) provided detailed information about the schools current status (e.g., endowment reports, rankings, etc). These edits do not.

• so as to avoid a delete and restore situation. We will have to agree to delete your edits and leave the section blank. Or, allow your edits along with the previous text. —Preceding unsigned comment added by John E. Rhea ( talk • contribs) 14:49, 18 January 2010 (UTC) reply

• Further, this article is about the Black Ivy League, not about Blacks who attended "Ivy League" schools. As such, mention of Clarence Thomas and Barack Obama is misplaced.

Likewise, discussions about facebook versions, distinctions between Black alumni of Ivy League schools is also off topic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by John E. Rhea ( talk • contribs) 14:57, 18 January 2010 (UTC) reply

• Finally, information about the schools' rankings, endowments and recognition, serve to illustrate precisely why these schools have been deemed "The Black Ivy League." This article is about seven HBCUs referred to as the Black Ivy League, mention of the actual Ivy League's initiatives to increase minority enrollment, etc., should be included in article about those schools.

In response, I appreciate your comments. However, a primary thesis of this article is that the set of "Black Ivy League" schools is not well established and still debated. Hence, it is difficult to make statements about "all Black Ivy League schools" unless we can document that they apply to the full set of potential members. The content you added flatly asserted that there were seven such schools, even though the preceding paragraph established that there were more than seven schools claiming membership in the category. The sentence, "The Black Ivy League Colleges and Universities are a collective of seven private institutions." creates the impression that there is a formal "collective" organization by that name, when our research could not find one. Comments about specific schools should be left to the individual article about that school unless it is used to illustrate a point about the entire group.

• The creation of this article (September 2009) was, I believe, an attempt to discuss the seven institutions which historically have been crowned the Black Ivy League. Meaning those HBCUs which at one point considered the "Black Harvard" or the "Black Princeton." Whether this concept or comparison offends others is not at issue. At issue is the history of the term Black Ivy League and its connotations and impacts.

One interesting issue that arose last November was that more black students are now attending Ivy League schools than these schools. This raises the question of whether the 21st Century notion of "Black Ivy League" may be more applicable to the black students attending the Ivy League than to these schools. Many sources (particularly the Bill Maxwell series contracdict the claim that "the schools continue to exhibit high levels of academic excellence relatively comparable to the traditional Ivy League." Googling "Black Ivy League" shows that the term is frequently used to refer to black students and graduates of Ivy League schools. Again, while Justice Marshall went to Howard Law School, his successor Justice Thomas went to Yale Law School. Similarly, Barack Obama is also relevant to this argument. If a student wants to grow up to be a leader in his or her profession in the 21st Century, or for that matter just wants to graduate without student loans, he or she stands a better chance attending an Ivy League school. Again, read the Bill Maxwell series.

• is this your opinion? It appears that some are "blogging" their our own personal views and agendas. This is sad.

• One section of this article finds several examples of Black Ivy League grads who are well accomplished leaders. Why would someone suggest that an African-American can only become a leader if he attends an Ivy League school?

That not healthy.

That said, there are several internet venues where one can make their argument against HBCUs. I just doesn't seem like a wiki article "about" HBCUs, specifically the premier Black Ivie, is warranted or consistent with the purpose of this article. MuJami ( talk) 17:08, 18 January 2010 (UTC)MuJami ( User:MuJami has been blocked as a sockpuppet of John E. Rhea.) reply

• Is it difficult to believe and/or accept the relative success of these institutions? Is it necessary, in this article, to downgrade them?? MuJami ( talk) 16:46, 18 January 2010 (UTC)MuJami — MuJami ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. reply

In my view, the purpose of this article is to 1) state that the term has varying definitions, 2) summarize the different views of which schools should be classified, 3) address the competition with the Ivy League for top students and faculty, and 4) provide a few characteristics that are in common with all of the potential members of the group. It is not a sales pitch for the Ivy League or for these schools. Racepacket ( talk) 15:30, 18 January 2010 (UTC) reply

• (#3) In addressing the "competition" the Black Ivies have with the Ivy League a comprehensive discussion should be made as well. MuJami ( talk) 16:57, 18 January 2010 (UTC)MuJami reply

• Correct me if I'm wrong, but is this a "blog" about whether HBCUs or Ivy League (PWIs) are better for emerging African-American college students? Or is this an article about a group of historically black colleges historically referred to as "The Black Ivy League?" If the article's purpose is to discuss and/or debate who is included in the group, what defines the group etc., then why the extraneous comments? MuJami ( talk) 16:46, 18 January 2010 (UTC)MuJami reply

This is getting hard to follow because User:John E. Rhea does not sign his comments and User:MuJami interlaces his comments in the middle of mine. Question #1: Is the material in the December 5 version well sourced? Answer: yes. I took the 25 sources identified by User:Milowent and incorporated them into the article. None of them are blogs, but instead newspaper articles, scholarly journals and books.

Question #2: Are the subsequent edits by User:John E. Rhea POV-pushing? Answer: Regretably yes. Phrases like " its academic prestige, economic prowess ..." and "The Black Ivy League boasts of prominent alumni which include:" and "All of the Black Ivy League institutions are ranked in the top tier of the U.S. News & World Report College and University rankings in a given category." sound like puffing and a hard sales pitch rather than a summary of the relevant sources.

Question #3: Are we trying to "downgrade" these institutions? Answer: No. This article has inherent problems because the term "Black Ivy League" invites comparisons between these schools and the multiracial Ivy League. Also, prior to the 1960s, when the term was first used, many people perceived it as a white male Ivy League. The article must explain American higher education before the 1960s when black students, faculty and staff faced serious discrimination at many colleges, and that such discrimination is not a factor today. The 25 sources describe this transformation and how difficult it is for these schools to compete for the best students and faculty.

Question #4: Were User:John E. Rhea's changes well documented? Answer: No. For example, "The term "Black Ivy League" is most commonly used to refer to these seven schools as a collective group. The term also carries connotations of academic excellence, selectivity in admissions, denotes a premiere cultural experience, and a reputation for social elitism in Black America." No cite is offered and the sources argue to the contrary. Many would argue that Harvard has more of a reputation for "social elitism" than does Howard.

Question #5: Can the article use mazagine rankings to compare schools? Answer: This is dangerous and can be misleading. In every objective category I have checked, the multiracial Ivy League outranks the Black Ivy League schools. I posted the USNWR HBCU rankings on this talk page to show that Claflin and Xavier outrank some of the schools that were described in the pre-November article. But the relevant set of schools are all college and universities in the United States, and in every objective measure, the multiracial Ivy League schools have ranked way above the Black Ivy League schools. There is a lot of published scholarly literature in the fields of education, sociology and pyschology that may be more productive in exploring these issues than the current magazine rankings. We even have at least two U.S. Supreme Court cases arguing that racially separated education is inherently unequal. In Sweatt v. Painter, the court held that, when considering graduate education, intangibles must be considered as part of "substantive equality." The better facilities, better funded financial aid packages, higher paid faculty, better alumni networks, etc. are all important factors. It appears that Rhea argues against this and appears to misread the magazine rankings to imply that the Black Ivy League schools are "better" than the multiracial Ivy League schools. Both a fair reading of the rankings and the literature as a whole, takes the opposite view.

Question #6: Is the term "Black Ivy League" is historic or in current use? Answer: It may have a different meaning in the 21st Century than it did 50 years ago. The article should explore that. Hence, the references to Facebook and other modern uses. The article is about the terminology, which can change meaning over time.

Question #7: What schools are in the "Black Ivy League"? Answer: Nobody knows and there are a lot of conflicting opinions. The claim above that "seven schools were crowned the Black Ivy League" is contradicted by the literature. The article summarizes and explains this ambiguity.

Question #8: Who is the intended audience for this article? Answer: Everyone, including people in Europe who don't have any background in American higher education. This is not an article for "Black America" and is not automatically limited to HBCUs. All valid secondary sources should be considered and summarized here. Racepacket ( talk) 21:40, 18 January 2010 (UTC) reply

To confirm Racepacket's answer to Q8 - this is the English Wikipedia, an internet encyclopaedia, and so the assumption must be that the audience is any English-speaking person. I come from Yorkshire, England, and I am interested in this topic, but do require an explanation of how this phenomenon appeared, and how it relates to the current situation in US education. Elen of the Roads ( talk) 14:30, 19 January 2010 (UTC) reply

I can understand we may have differing views, but why you would go to the trouble of scrambling up an alphabetized list of schools is difficult to understand. Racepacket ( talk) 15:41, 18 January 2010 (UTC) reply

The Legacy section claims that the largest percentage of blacks holding advanced degrees came from the Black Ivy League schools. Are you saying that of blacks holding advanced degrees, the largest percentage attended the Black Ivy League as undergraduates, or are you saying that the Black Ivy League awarded the largest percentage of advanced degrees among the US black population? I ask this because most Black Ivy League schools do not award advanced degrees, with the notable exception of Howard and Tuskegee. I found sources making statements about HBCUs generally, but not these Black Ivy League schools. Please provide a cite. Racepacket ( talk) 10:40, 20 January 2010 (UTC) reply

Someone slept during American Geo: Morgan State is in the great Southern City of Baltimore (Charm City) Maryland. We don't like being lumped in with the Mid-Atlantic States, thank you :-) Maryland is south of the Mason-Dixon Line and a Southern State, y'all! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.55.134.247 ( talk) 22:34, 7 March 2010 (UTC) reply

Baltimore is Boston with 5% less Dunkin Donuts.-- Milowent ( talk) 02:58, 8 March 2010 (UTC) reply

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