This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Black Irish (folklore) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1Auto-archiving period: 90 days |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
On 19 March 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved to Black Irish (origin myth). The result of the discussion was not moved. |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The words Black Irish have been used, at different times and places, to describe:
The first group (e.g., black hair, blue eyes, pale skin) is the subject of this article. At some times and in some places, this first group's appearance has been (incorrectly) explained with a story about Spanish sailors being shipwrecked in Ireland. This story is not true, and is fairly described as a myth.
An editor would like to have this article begin with the words "The historic term Black Irish was a myth..." Other editors would like the article to begin with words like "The Black Irish were people of Irish ancestry, having dark hair..." or "Black Irish is a common description of the appearance of white Irish people with dark hair...", and introduce the origin myth after the group of people has been identified.
Question: Should the first sentence of this article describe the Black Irish as a myth, or as people?
WhatamIdoing ( talk) 03:57, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
The people are also not a myth, headlined the subsection with the term "the real people" and has based their vote around that, but they do not have any sources supporting that statement. In my view, an RFC should not have been started before OP gathered sources supporting that claim, as voting "people" would endorse that unsourced claim. CeltBrowne ( talk) 05:05, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
the Irish whose Iberian bloodlines show through. What Iberian bloodline?! The mythical one that's passed down in folklore. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 17:14, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
So, we need an anthropologist to decide whether a stereotype is real? Or an appearance?
Per Talk:Black Irish and [[Talk:Talk:Black people in Ireland#I propose redirecting "Black Irish" to this article]]," [5] but I only see one mention of the current title and no discussion. [6]
If you want an article about the "black Irish", meaning (mainly Irish-American) dark-complexioned white people like Richard Nixon, go create that article."
As such, it seems it was meant to have information on both the people and the myths that purport to explain them.
that they can come to Wikipedia and find out what the words mean
Black Irish refers to an obsolete historical race concept used to describe people of Irish ancestry with fair skin and dark features"? That mirrors the way the Aryan race is handled, it seems to capture your position, and I think would also satisfy @ WhatamIdoing's concern. Thoughts?
The historic term Black Irish refers to an obsolete historical race concept used primarily used in the 19th and 20th centuries by Irish-Americans to describe "an Irish person, or one of Irish ancestry, having dark hair and a dark complexion or eyes" who were supposedly the descendants of Spanish sailors shipwrecked during the Spanish Armada of 1588, however, genetic, historical, and anthropological research does not support this.
The historic term Black Irish refers to an obsolete social construction used primarily used in the 19th and 20th centuries by Irish-Americans to describe "an Irish person, or one of Irish ancestry, having dark hair and a dark complexion or eyes" who were supposedly the descendants of Spanish sailors shipwrecked during the Spanish Armada of 1588, however, genetic, historical, and anthropological research does not support this.CeltBrowne ( talk) 00:38, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
If the subject of this article is Myth of Spanish ancestry among Irish people, why is the title "Black Irish"?. It isn't? It's "Black Irish (folklore)". I refer you to my comments from 1st and 2nd February, above. They still stand. You seem determined to keep arguing this, but it's clear at this stage you're not going to get consensus. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 17:09, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
@ CeltBrowne, the opening of that passage says "You have only to look at the man, moreover, to see that he falls into the special category of the "Black Irish"..."
Among grammatical person, the first person is characterized by the words "I" and "we", which do not appear in this paragraph. Ergo, it is not written in the first person.
But let's look at some other sources, because that's a better way to decide whether something is really just this one author's personal opinion. Here are a few:
That's a sample of descriptions of Nixon published in newspapers across three decades. Given this information, do you really think that we should present this information as "just" one author's personal opinion? WhatamIdoing ( talk) 22:12, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
I find this section heading confusing. I think the bit confusing me is "the myth". If we take it as a series of logical propositions:
The contents of the section, if you boil it down, amount to "Some Irish-Americans were Black Irish". How does that fact "use" "the myth"? It doesn't mention this mythical Spanish ancestry or appear to depend on it at all. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 06:26, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus is against the proposal at this time. BD2412 T 16:22, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
Black Irish (folklore) → Black Irish (origin myth) – or Black Irish (cultural myth) or Black Irish (origin story). As mentioned above by Zacwill on 22 January 2024, there is "a subset of the Irish population that exhibits relatively dark colouring; this subset is certainly real. The popular notion that these individuals descend from Spaniards does seem to be a myth, but it is conflation to say that the black Irish are themselves mythical." Some people with Irish heritage have been called "Black Irish". They are not purely the stuff of folklore, like leprechauns and faeries. — BarrelProof ( talk) 15:49, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
a subset of the Irish population that exhibits relatively dark colouring; this subset is certainly real
Oppose move. Not sure what this proposal brings to the table. The current title is fine. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 15:51, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
@ CeltBrowne, do you have any reliable sources that directly say Black Irish is a historical term, i.e., that it is not actually being used today (even though it obviously is being used today)? WhatamIdoing ( talk) 18:52, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
I think, possibly, the best solution is for you to just go and create a Black Irish (American term) article, where you can write about the Americans, Richard Nixon and Robert E. Howard, being called 'Black Irish', by other Americans. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 11:32, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Black Irish (folklore) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1Auto-archiving period: 90 days |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
On 19 March 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved to Black Irish (origin myth). The result of the discussion was not moved. |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The words Black Irish have been used, at different times and places, to describe:
The first group (e.g., black hair, blue eyes, pale skin) is the subject of this article. At some times and in some places, this first group's appearance has been (incorrectly) explained with a story about Spanish sailors being shipwrecked in Ireland. This story is not true, and is fairly described as a myth.
An editor would like to have this article begin with the words "The historic term Black Irish was a myth..." Other editors would like the article to begin with words like "The Black Irish were people of Irish ancestry, having dark hair..." or "Black Irish is a common description of the appearance of white Irish people with dark hair...", and introduce the origin myth after the group of people has been identified.
Question: Should the first sentence of this article describe the Black Irish as a myth, or as people?
WhatamIdoing ( talk) 03:57, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
The people are also not a myth, headlined the subsection with the term "the real people" and has based their vote around that, but they do not have any sources supporting that statement. In my view, an RFC should not have been started before OP gathered sources supporting that claim, as voting "people" would endorse that unsourced claim. CeltBrowne ( talk) 05:05, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
the Irish whose Iberian bloodlines show through. What Iberian bloodline?! The mythical one that's passed down in folklore. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 17:14, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
So, we need an anthropologist to decide whether a stereotype is real? Or an appearance?
Per Talk:Black Irish and [[Talk:Talk:Black people in Ireland#I propose redirecting "Black Irish" to this article]]," [5] but I only see one mention of the current title and no discussion. [6]
If you want an article about the "black Irish", meaning (mainly Irish-American) dark-complexioned white people like Richard Nixon, go create that article."
As such, it seems it was meant to have information on both the people and the myths that purport to explain them.
that they can come to Wikipedia and find out what the words mean
Black Irish refers to an obsolete historical race concept used to describe people of Irish ancestry with fair skin and dark features"? That mirrors the way the Aryan race is handled, it seems to capture your position, and I think would also satisfy @ WhatamIdoing's concern. Thoughts?
The historic term Black Irish refers to an obsolete historical race concept used primarily used in the 19th and 20th centuries by Irish-Americans to describe "an Irish person, or one of Irish ancestry, having dark hair and a dark complexion or eyes" who were supposedly the descendants of Spanish sailors shipwrecked during the Spanish Armada of 1588, however, genetic, historical, and anthropological research does not support this.
The historic term Black Irish refers to an obsolete social construction used primarily used in the 19th and 20th centuries by Irish-Americans to describe "an Irish person, or one of Irish ancestry, having dark hair and a dark complexion or eyes" who were supposedly the descendants of Spanish sailors shipwrecked during the Spanish Armada of 1588, however, genetic, historical, and anthropological research does not support this.CeltBrowne ( talk) 00:38, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
If the subject of this article is Myth of Spanish ancestry among Irish people, why is the title "Black Irish"?. It isn't? It's "Black Irish (folklore)". I refer you to my comments from 1st and 2nd February, above. They still stand. You seem determined to keep arguing this, but it's clear at this stage you're not going to get consensus. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 17:09, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
@ CeltBrowne, the opening of that passage says "You have only to look at the man, moreover, to see that he falls into the special category of the "Black Irish"..."
Among grammatical person, the first person is characterized by the words "I" and "we", which do not appear in this paragraph. Ergo, it is not written in the first person.
But let's look at some other sources, because that's a better way to decide whether something is really just this one author's personal opinion. Here are a few:
That's a sample of descriptions of Nixon published in newspapers across three decades. Given this information, do you really think that we should present this information as "just" one author's personal opinion? WhatamIdoing ( talk) 22:12, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
I find this section heading confusing. I think the bit confusing me is "the myth". If we take it as a series of logical propositions:
The contents of the section, if you boil it down, amount to "Some Irish-Americans were Black Irish". How does that fact "use" "the myth"? It doesn't mention this mythical Spanish ancestry or appear to depend on it at all. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 06:26, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus is against the proposal at this time. BD2412 T 16:22, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
Black Irish (folklore) → Black Irish (origin myth) – or Black Irish (cultural myth) or Black Irish (origin story). As mentioned above by Zacwill on 22 January 2024, there is "a subset of the Irish population that exhibits relatively dark colouring; this subset is certainly real. The popular notion that these individuals descend from Spaniards does seem to be a myth, but it is conflation to say that the black Irish are themselves mythical." Some people with Irish heritage have been called "Black Irish". They are not purely the stuff of folklore, like leprechauns and faeries. — BarrelProof ( talk) 15:49, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
a subset of the Irish population that exhibits relatively dark colouring; this subset is certainly real
Oppose move. Not sure what this proposal brings to the table. The current title is fine. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 15:51, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
@ CeltBrowne, do you have any reliable sources that directly say Black Irish is a historical term, i.e., that it is not actually being used today (even though it obviously is being used today)? WhatamIdoing ( talk) 18:52, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
I think, possibly, the best solution is for you to just go and create a Black Irish (American term) article, where you can write about the Americans, Richard Nixon and Robert E. Howard, being called 'Black Irish', by other Americans. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 11:32, 5 May 2024 (UTC)