This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This archive page covers approximately the topics no longer being discussed as of about December 2005.
Should Lomberg's nomination as one of the "100 most influential people in the world" by Time Magazine in 2004 be mentioned? After all, even though it might be a bit fleeting, it does underline the impact his work has created.
I think the word many is misleading in the following sentence. There were only four experts, after all.
From the article:
What, and one of them just happened to have a pie, so that they could throw it in his face as a spontaneous expression of disgust? -- The Anome
My point is: if there are scientific arguments against Lomborg, someone will need to write them in the article. And then, someone will need to add Lomborg's counter-arguments.
Moderating a page I find reeks of smear campaign. --Anders Törlind
Whilst Mr. Lomborg might be homosexual, it looks a little incongruous in the article as is as the only aspect of his private life that gets mentioned - you might even read it as a context in which to judge his environmental ideas (which is clearly nonsense - none of the scientific criticism of his work I've read has even bothered to mention his homosexuality). If we are to mention his homosexuality, shouldn't it be presented in the context of a more extensive discussion of his personal story? -- Robert Merkel
I've also removed the following
This seems like a stray argument from the controversy over his book, and putting it here looks like his critics are playing the man rather than the ball (so to speak) and does both Lomborg and his critics a disservice. -- Robert Merkel
In March 2002, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, Denmark’s newly elected center-right prime minister who is also an economist, appointed Lomborg to run the country’s new Institute for Environmental Assessment. Lomborg is charged with “watching state agencies to ensure that cash for cutting pollution goes where the return is greatest,” The Economist reported in its March 2 issue. “The government’s aim in setting up the new institute is to help it trim heavy public spending,” it added. The new Denmark government, elected in November, has already begun making some changes in environmental policy, including eliminating plans for three offshore wind-power parks and making plans to build houses in state forests. [1]
However, The Wall Street Journal reported that Professor Bjorn Lomborg, former Greenpeace activist, devoted environmentalist and author of "The Skeptical Environmentalist," says the scientific documentation supporting Kyoto says earth's temperature will rise 1.2 degrees Celsius by 2100 with the treaty or by 2094-a mere six years earlier-without. And that's if-as seems most unlikely-no alternative to fossil fuels emerges. [2]
This sentence sounded a little bizarre:
As his sexuality has not much to do with his role in the World Economic forum.
Removed an anonymously posted addition with no reference cited. Over 100 scientists, both people for and against Lomborg, criticised DCSD for it's report. Now it is the DCSD that is under investigation. A Google News search on "Lomborg" and "DCSD" turns up zero evidence for this assertion.
Also, I'm about to remove the "Lomborg is gay" sentence. I'll put it back in when I see irrelevant statments of sexual orientation added to a significant number of other biographical entries, not before. -- Tannin
I think we should take out the whole Danish committee thing, unless and until someone points out a reason why that committee should be given any credence. I think we should just say that many people have tried to discredit Lomborg and perhaps give 2 or 3 examples of substantive criticisms along with Lomborg's rejoinders to each example. I see no point in repeating a blanket condemnation. It would be like saying, "Israel is racist. The UN passed a resolution saying, 'zionism = racism.'" -- Uncle Ed
Ruling:
Objectively speaking, the publication of the work under consideration is deemed to fall within the concept of scientific dishonesty.
In view of the subjective requirements made in terms of intent or gross negligence, however, Bjørn Lomborg's publication cannot fall within the bounds of this characterization. Conversely, the publication is deemed clearly contrary to the standards of good scientific practice.
For and on behalf of the Committees
Hans Henrik Brydensholt
Chairman of DCSD
I put back the information that he is openly gay. I for one find it interesting that even people on the political right start coming out. This article is about the person Lomborg, not just about his book. His being openly gay is relevant to the description of his person. -- AxelBoldt 05:21 Feb 18, 2003 (UTC)
Tannin, please explain how you think it helps our readers to suppress correct information. We include information about homosexuality of lots of prominent people; see for instance Leonardo da Vinci or Pim Fortuyn. Regarding your question in the subject line: I would not include the information that George W. Bush is openly straight in his article, but if he were openly gay, I would most definitely include that, because it is interesting and relevant information. -- AxelBoldt 16:26 Feb 18, 2003 (UTC)
How did the Danish committee become an "official" body? -- Uncle Ed
Mr. Lomborg was trained in political sciences. His Ph.D. paper was about simulation/game theory. According the circulumn, the statistics was taught together with methodology for about 30 hours on the first year of the education. He was hired as associate professor to teach statistics for students studying political science by his mentor, now president for the board of the institute that Mr. Lomborg is heading. The president was in turn appointed by the minister of environment in Denmark, whose declared goal is to cut environmental investments.
Almost all attacks on Lomborg have been aimed at discrediting him as a person, rather than it exposing any specific errors in his work. This fits the ad hominem definition precisely.
It's typical of environmentalists, that when challenged they resort to personal attacks. -- Uncle Ed 19:54, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)
DCSD's parent body just repudiated the attack on Lomborg:
BTW, I've noticed much talk about whether or not BL's sexual orientation is relevant, but nothing about whether the statement on wikipedia is accurate. Is it?
And why don't we put his food preference as well: he happens to be a vegetarian. Since he is famous through environmental debate, it seems more relevant than his being gay, or not. -- Vfp15
I've added a bit more text... Also, {Usenet post} refers (much of the thread, not just that post) it you care to wade through it.
Lomborg was never a member or a registered supporter of Greenpeace. He was challenged about this in a radio discussion with Tom Burke and said that he'd given money. --Simon Dresner
When did he ever clain to be a member? -- Crid 20:23, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Jeff Harvey wrote:
I wrote this guy a private e-mail asking him to edit the article and promising to prevent the sort of thing he claimed would or did happen. I doubt he'll respond, because environmentalists are basically a selfish and dishonest lot. -- --user:Ed Poor (deep or sour) 15:52, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
( William M. Connolley 22:41, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)): TDC is a naughty and has broken the three-reverts-in-24-hours rule.
Umm, how do you figure? I added information that was reverted by you, not the other way around. Unless we talk about the changes, then this will go on forever.
but onto the question
po-tato po-ta-to, semantics really, but after reading some of Lomborg's critics, they not only set out show that his book was wrong, but make many attacks on his character, his professional credentials, his green credentials and various other criticism of Lomborg, not his book.
Note that this is attacking a strawman, since the DCSD did not accuse Lomborg of being guilty of scientific dishonesty in the first place.
( William M. Connolley 11:24, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)): Read the words. The DCSD said: Objectively speaking, the publication of the work under consideration is deemed to fall within the concept of scientific dishonesty... In view of the subjective requirements made in terms of intent or gross negligence, however, Bjørn Lomborg's publication cannot fall within the bounds of this characterization.
I've checked the article, and it is perfectly neutral. The user who decided to place the NPOV tag at the beginning of the article, without giving an actual reason, probably dislikes Bjorn Lomborg, but that's simply not enough to tolerate randomly placed NPOV tags, despite his "power" in the Wikipedia hierarchy. -- Lumidek 15:24, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Some of the problems here might arise from the fact that many sources have not been translated from Danish.
Here is an approximate translation of DCSDs annual report 2003 [6], page 23:
The DCSD is a committee under the Ministry of Science. As such there is precedent for the Ministry revoking decisions when it decides that the legal procedure has been incorrect.
In the Ministry of Science's decision [8] they listed several reasons as to why the DCSDs decision should be remitted. None of them were because the DCSD "did not establish that scientific dishonesty had occurred". Rather they were:
It is obviously the last reason which has been misquoted. Perhaps a better wording would be "and that during the review they did not investigate whether the criticism of Lomborgs working methods was just." -- Rasmus (talk) 11:57, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
( William M. Connolley 16:43, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)): Rasmus - thanks for the translations, and spotting the doubling, and fixing it. And my apologies for unfixing it, but I think its back to how you left it now.
I think a lot of this comes down to the meaning of the word "remit". To me, this means "return for reconsideration". Not "annul" or "invalidate". From the original Danish, can you tell exactly what sense they mean? I believe that the response of the DSCD supports the "return for reconsideration" version, because what they seem to have done is thought about reconsidering it, and decided not to (and in that sense, it seems to me that they have disobeyed the instructions of the ministry). If the ministry (acting, say, in the sense of a court of appeal) had simply quashed the original decision, then there would be no further role for the DSCD.
Continuing... can you tell if the ministry has authority to quash/annul the decisions of the DCSD?
MichaelSirks 22:39, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC): Now that even William is convinced that the 6 of january 2003 was invalidated,
we could move on to correcting the text where it is suggested that the verdict still stands. I propose to take the timeline described in the final version of the DCDS and add a more detailed explanation why the ministery remitted the case. This proposed change is for the entire sections; Complaint to the Danish Committees on Scientific Dishonesty (DCSD), The Complaint is Overturned
(begin of proposed text) 6 January 2003: The DCDS reaches its decision in the complaint against Bjørn Lomborg’s book The Sceptical Environmentalist. The book was published by the Cambridge University Press in 2001.
The main point of the DCDS’s decision of 6 January 2003 is that from an objective point of view, it was a question of scientific dishonesty on the part of Bjørn Lomborg, because, among other reasons, the book was based on a systematically biased choice of data.
Because of Bjørn Lomborg’s lack of scientific expertise in the themes treated in the book, however, the DCDS did not find that Bjørn Lomborg had shown intentional or gross negligence. Bjørn Lomborg was therefore acquitted of the accusations of having acted in a manner considered scientifically dishonest. But the DCDS stated, at the same time, that he had clearly acted contrary to good scientific practice.
13 February 2003: Bjørn Lomborg files a complaint with the Ministry of Science, Technology and Innovation against the DCDS’s decision of 6 January 2003.
17 December 2003: The Ministry of Science, Technology and Innovation makes a decision in the case. The Ministry finds that the DCDS has made a number of procedural errors namely; The DCSD did not use a proper standard for deciding "good scientific practice" in the social sciences. The DCSD did not evaluate its authority to decide the case in regards to the order stipulating that "The case must be of importance to Danish research.". that DCSD did not document, where the defendant (BL) was biased in his choice of data and his argumentation, and that the decision lacks any argumentation for, why DCSD finds that the complainants are right in their criticisms of BLs working methods. It is not enough, that criticism of a researchers scientific working methods exists; DCSD must adopt an attitude to the criticism and take a stand to whether or not the criticism is just, and why. It is exactly these tasks that are DCSDs primary duty to solve, and since this have not occured, the decision must be remitted to DCSD, cf. what has been quoted above from administrative law of the consequence of neglecting the investigative principle. Such an considerable breach in DCSDs consideration of the case is in itself to be critiqued. The Ministry therefore remits the case to the DCDS. Furthermore, the Ministry’s decision states that it is up to the DCDS to determine whether it will re-examine the case. The Ministry explained at a later date that the decision of the Ministry must be taken to mean that the DCDS’s decision of 6 January 2003 is invalid.
12 March 2004: The Danish Committees on Scientific Dishonesty (DSCD) have finally ended their case, rejecting the original complaints. They have decided that the original decision is invalid and has ended any further inquiry.
(end of proposed text)
I started an RFC regarding user William M. Connolley, located here: Wikipedia:Requests for comment/William M. Connolley. If you are interested, please comment or sign as appropriate. -- — Cortonin | Talk 12:25, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
It is written more like a blog than an encylopaediac article. Shouldn't it carry a standards disclaimer tag or something?
I think this should be reverted. Since nothing new has happened in the case for several years he would have to argue for his changes. For me they don't make sense. The added sentence "The complaint was ultimately found to be without merit and dismissed." is not an accurate summary of what happened in this complex case at all. The qualification of the DSCD's findings with "the DCSD believes" even in sentences that start with "The main point of the DCDS’s decision [...] is" serves only to indicate the writer's disagreement with the findings. I don't see the point in reformulating the ministry point of view. -- Erik Corry 10:54, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
I don't agree that the peer review proves TSE was "accurate and worthy of publication". I think CUP's peer review simply meant it passed one of the internal checks that CUP used in determining whether to publish it. I'd be interested in what exactly the CUP peer review briefing was, what were they looking for and what was in their report? It is something that should be in the article (it it was, all of this peer-review back and forth -- JonGwynne -- would be disposed of). All I've found about the peer review so far is who the four reviewers were (and, criticisms that the choice of reviewers led to bias). Given the small size of the panel and the limited scope of their expertise relative to TSE, they couldn't have verified every detail. I'd guess it was more of an overall vetting, equivalent to running a potentially controversial news article past the lawyers and a couple of university proefessors or other recognized experts, to make sure there were no seriously actionable things or gross errors. It's one thing to say, "yeah, you could say that", and another to say, "yeah, you're probably right". Almost certainly, the CUP peer review wasn't at all like presenting each section of the book to a scientific review committee or journal in the main field it dealt with (i.e. as if TSE was a collection of peer-reviewed scientific papers in various fields). (In general, a lot of the Lomborg/TSE discussion here seems based on extremely superficial knowledge about the things being discussed, e.g. the details of the DCSD affair; who is HAN?; Lomborg's academic status and qualifications; how TSE should best be classified; how sound was the statistical work, measured by whatever "industry standards" for statistics exist?...) -- Tsavage 18:38, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
I just reported on the two signature collections. I don't mean to imply that there is a clean line where the social scientists back him and the natural scientists are against him, but I agree that the makeup of the signatories to the two signature collections does suggest a correllation. I don't think there is much of a case to be made that the signatures were maed in some environments where the one or the other sort of scientist was predominant: Both collections were made via email and were well publicised at the time, so there can be no question of them being secret. There are lots of other things to suggest a correlation between the type of scientist and their opinion on Lomborg if you care to look, starting with the list of publications that support or oppose Lomborg. However I didn't write anything about the correlation since I feel a fact like that would require a more thorough survey before it would be suitable for inclusion in a Wiki. I think my new version is an improvement on the old one in that it clarifies the context in which Skou and the others got involved in the discussion. I didn't mention that the second signature collection required signatories to hold at least a PhD in order to be allowed to sign :-). Incidentally I can no longer find the list of signatories online for the second collection, although I can find numerous media references to the signature collection taking place, the makeup of the signatories and the identity of the famous ones. I expect the list was published as an ad in some national paper at some point (that seems to be the 'standard procedure) -- Erik Corry 19:13, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
I removed the following section from the USC quote:
It's basically saying that the USC statement should be viewed with skepticism, a strong and unsupported charge. The same argument holds for the "HAN academics" (from the other side), and can be applied to greater or lesser degrees to every quote here, everybody's on a side. I don't think this is a profitable avenue to go down, not likely to lead to a more readable or authoritative article.
In this case, the "specifically pro-environmental" aspect should at least FIRST be made clear in the Union of Concerned Scientists article, which it is not at present. This whole Lomborg article needs work, including the USC quote (which for one is questionably grouped with the Economist and Scientific American under "Discussions in the media"), but I don't find tacking on that para to be of any help. -- Tsavage 19:03, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
Whether Bjorn Lomborg is gay or not should be relevant only if a detailed history of his life, bio, is given. Although, it is a pretty important piece of info, being presented in any other context, I do not see it as appropriate. I think that considering that he is such a good looking guy, many gay guys would like to know that he is gay, and probably they would like to get his phone number or email -I wonder who should we write to in order to get that info, any ideas anyone?- Going back to the point, and seriously this time, although some of his ideas are hard for me to accept in the order he presents them, I do not see him too far from a role in stirring up conversation and moving forces to really re-think how we are approaching the protection of the environment. It is not less important to notice that he makes some good points in terms of highlighting some important issues that need to be put in the forefront of the discussion and policies for the protection of the environment. My problem with his ideas is that all that we do, to protect the environment, is important, in my opinion, but more it is needed. I guess it would be nice to talk to him in person. I have seen him on TV a couple of times, but I have missed the chance to ask him a couple of questions myself. The topic is really serious, so is the way to approach it. As he presents things from a sided view, so do his detractors portray him.
Cut from article:
What's the difference between assistant professor ... lectured on statistics and is a statistician?
It sounds like a contributor is arguing that BL isn't qualified to discuss the statistics of the environment. If so, that POV should be attributed to a source outside Wikipedia - not simply stated as fact or insinuated. Uncle Ed 04:20, August 27, 2005 (UTC)
http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/lazy-thinkers-still-defend-bad-ideas/2005/10/12/1128796586029.html The Wikipedia article gives a correct description of Lomborg's specialisation, but no longer includes an explicit correction of the erroneous claim that he's a statisticain. I don't really have a problem with this. As an example of difficult statistical issues, the obvious one (but not the only one) is how to determine that a species is extinct. John Quiggin 03:18, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
Mr. Orzetto has vandalized the text of the timeline of the DCDS case. If he had read the talk pages he would know that this text is from the DCDS herself [16]. He should note that the initial verdict is no longer valid according to their own web-site and according to Kåre Fog who sad(see talk page); The ministry has informed UVVU that UVVU´s decision of 7th Jan. 2003 is no longer valid, because of the formal errors made in the treatment of the case. And because UVVU has decided not to hear the case again, there will not appear any new decision to replace the one that has been cancelled. Even the decision that Lomborg is "objectively dishonest" and has acted at variance with "good scientific practice" is no longer valid. There simply does not any longer exist any decision. Perhaps the most unfortunate consequence of this is that people in general are confused, and there is no authority to lean on when you want to find out what is right and wrong in this case. Expanding on the intial verdict by repeating the accusation is not interesting because the DCDS committee hasn't investigated and documented these accusations. This is according to the ministery of science and HAN. So what is your source that they did investigate the accusations. I have offered you the choice of investigating the accusation on wikipedia. I haven't got a response. So I reverted your initial change. Next came WMC reverts my revert without any comments why he reverts it. I thought he was on parole for reverting things without any comment.-- MichaelSirks 18:43, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
WMC changed the DCDS text from "a question of" to "found to be". Why did he changed it while the DCDS site says "a question of"? What is his reference for this? Is he suggesting that the DCDS doesn't know their own verdict? Please anwser else I have to revert.-- MichaelSirks 19:23, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Compare the layout of this page to some other controversial figure, like Noam Chomsky. Criticisms against Chomsky are placed where they belong: after a thorough discussion of what the man has done and what he believes. Anyone coming to Lomborg's page gets a cursory coverage of what he's done, and then a lengthy diatribe on ethics charges against him. It never should have been written that way, and it is a shame that it persists.
Shame on those who can't see through their biases.
-- Mark Nau
I agree with you. There are some people who want to discredite Lomborg, in order to dismiss the issues he raises. And this repeated throughout wikipedia with socalled sceptics. Lets look at the ethics charges; I first proposed to deal with the ethic charges in the TSE article because all the ethic charges are related to TSE. In my opinion this better because you first get the context of the book and then you get the ethic charges. But they refuse. Now they want expand on an invalidated verdict. That's the reason that I want to stay as close as possible to the original text of the DCDS. They want to rubbish Lomborg at every cost. -- MichaelSirks 20:41, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This archive page covers approximately the topics no longer being discussed as of about December 2005.
Should Lomberg's nomination as one of the "100 most influential people in the world" by Time Magazine in 2004 be mentioned? After all, even though it might be a bit fleeting, it does underline the impact his work has created.
I think the word many is misleading in the following sentence. There were only four experts, after all.
From the article:
What, and one of them just happened to have a pie, so that they could throw it in his face as a spontaneous expression of disgust? -- The Anome
My point is: if there are scientific arguments against Lomborg, someone will need to write them in the article. And then, someone will need to add Lomborg's counter-arguments.
Moderating a page I find reeks of smear campaign. --Anders Törlind
Whilst Mr. Lomborg might be homosexual, it looks a little incongruous in the article as is as the only aspect of his private life that gets mentioned - you might even read it as a context in which to judge his environmental ideas (which is clearly nonsense - none of the scientific criticism of his work I've read has even bothered to mention his homosexuality). If we are to mention his homosexuality, shouldn't it be presented in the context of a more extensive discussion of his personal story? -- Robert Merkel
I've also removed the following
This seems like a stray argument from the controversy over his book, and putting it here looks like his critics are playing the man rather than the ball (so to speak) and does both Lomborg and his critics a disservice. -- Robert Merkel
In March 2002, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, Denmark’s newly elected center-right prime minister who is also an economist, appointed Lomborg to run the country’s new Institute for Environmental Assessment. Lomborg is charged with “watching state agencies to ensure that cash for cutting pollution goes where the return is greatest,” The Economist reported in its March 2 issue. “The government’s aim in setting up the new institute is to help it trim heavy public spending,” it added. The new Denmark government, elected in November, has already begun making some changes in environmental policy, including eliminating plans for three offshore wind-power parks and making plans to build houses in state forests. [1]
However, The Wall Street Journal reported that Professor Bjorn Lomborg, former Greenpeace activist, devoted environmentalist and author of "The Skeptical Environmentalist," says the scientific documentation supporting Kyoto says earth's temperature will rise 1.2 degrees Celsius by 2100 with the treaty or by 2094-a mere six years earlier-without. And that's if-as seems most unlikely-no alternative to fossil fuels emerges. [2]
This sentence sounded a little bizarre:
As his sexuality has not much to do with his role in the World Economic forum.
Removed an anonymously posted addition with no reference cited. Over 100 scientists, both people for and against Lomborg, criticised DCSD for it's report. Now it is the DCSD that is under investigation. A Google News search on "Lomborg" and "DCSD" turns up zero evidence for this assertion.
Also, I'm about to remove the "Lomborg is gay" sentence. I'll put it back in when I see irrelevant statments of sexual orientation added to a significant number of other biographical entries, not before. -- Tannin
I think we should take out the whole Danish committee thing, unless and until someone points out a reason why that committee should be given any credence. I think we should just say that many people have tried to discredit Lomborg and perhaps give 2 or 3 examples of substantive criticisms along with Lomborg's rejoinders to each example. I see no point in repeating a blanket condemnation. It would be like saying, "Israel is racist. The UN passed a resolution saying, 'zionism = racism.'" -- Uncle Ed
Ruling:
Objectively speaking, the publication of the work under consideration is deemed to fall within the concept of scientific dishonesty.
In view of the subjective requirements made in terms of intent or gross negligence, however, Bjørn Lomborg's publication cannot fall within the bounds of this characterization. Conversely, the publication is deemed clearly contrary to the standards of good scientific practice.
For and on behalf of the Committees
Hans Henrik Brydensholt
Chairman of DCSD
I put back the information that he is openly gay. I for one find it interesting that even people on the political right start coming out. This article is about the person Lomborg, not just about his book. His being openly gay is relevant to the description of his person. -- AxelBoldt 05:21 Feb 18, 2003 (UTC)
Tannin, please explain how you think it helps our readers to suppress correct information. We include information about homosexuality of lots of prominent people; see for instance Leonardo da Vinci or Pim Fortuyn. Regarding your question in the subject line: I would not include the information that George W. Bush is openly straight in his article, but if he were openly gay, I would most definitely include that, because it is interesting and relevant information. -- AxelBoldt 16:26 Feb 18, 2003 (UTC)
How did the Danish committee become an "official" body? -- Uncle Ed
Mr. Lomborg was trained in political sciences. His Ph.D. paper was about simulation/game theory. According the circulumn, the statistics was taught together with methodology for about 30 hours on the first year of the education. He was hired as associate professor to teach statistics for students studying political science by his mentor, now president for the board of the institute that Mr. Lomborg is heading. The president was in turn appointed by the minister of environment in Denmark, whose declared goal is to cut environmental investments.
Almost all attacks on Lomborg have been aimed at discrediting him as a person, rather than it exposing any specific errors in his work. This fits the ad hominem definition precisely.
It's typical of environmentalists, that when challenged they resort to personal attacks. -- Uncle Ed 19:54, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)
DCSD's parent body just repudiated the attack on Lomborg:
BTW, I've noticed much talk about whether or not BL's sexual orientation is relevant, but nothing about whether the statement on wikipedia is accurate. Is it?
And why don't we put his food preference as well: he happens to be a vegetarian. Since he is famous through environmental debate, it seems more relevant than his being gay, or not. -- Vfp15
I've added a bit more text... Also, {Usenet post} refers (much of the thread, not just that post) it you care to wade through it.
Lomborg was never a member or a registered supporter of Greenpeace. He was challenged about this in a radio discussion with Tom Burke and said that he'd given money. --Simon Dresner
When did he ever clain to be a member? -- Crid 20:23, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Jeff Harvey wrote:
I wrote this guy a private e-mail asking him to edit the article and promising to prevent the sort of thing he claimed would or did happen. I doubt he'll respond, because environmentalists are basically a selfish and dishonest lot. -- --user:Ed Poor (deep or sour) 15:52, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
( William M. Connolley 22:41, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)): TDC is a naughty and has broken the three-reverts-in-24-hours rule.
Umm, how do you figure? I added information that was reverted by you, not the other way around. Unless we talk about the changes, then this will go on forever.
but onto the question
po-tato po-ta-to, semantics really, but after reading some of Lomborg's critics, they not only set out show that his book was wrong, but make many attacks on his character, his professional credentials, his green credentials and various other criticism of Lomborg, not his book.
Note that this is attacking a strawman, since the DCSD did not accuse Lomborg of being guilty of scientific dishonesty in the first place.
( William M. Connolley 11:24, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)): Read the words. The DCSD said: Objectively speaking, the publication of the work under consideration is deemed to fall within the concept of scientific dishonesty... In view of the subjective requirements made in terms of intent or gross negligence, however, Bjørn Lomborg's publication cannot fall within the bounds of this characterization.
I've checked the article, and it is perfectly neutral. The user who decided to place the NPOV tag at the beginning of the article, without giving an actual reason, probably dislikes Bjorn Lomborg, but that's simply not enough to tolerate randomly placed NPOV tags, despite his "power" in the Wikipedia hierarchy. -- Lumidek 15:24, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Some of the problems here might arise from the fact that many sources have not been translated from Danish.
Here is an approximate translation of DCSDs annual report 2003 [6], page 23:
The DCSD is a committee under the Ministry of Science. As such there is precedent for the Ministry revoking decisions when it decides that the legal procedure has been incorrect.
In the Ministry of Science's decision [8] they listed several reasons as to why the DCSDs decision should be remitted. None of them were because the DCSD "did not establish that scientific dishonesty had occurred". Rather they were:
It is obviously the last reason which has been misquoted. Perhaps a better wording would be "and that during the review they did not investigate whether the criticism of Lomborgs working methods was just." -- Rasmus (talk) 11:57, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
( William M. Connolley 16:43, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)): Rasmus - thanks for the translations, and spotting the doubling, and fixing it. And my apologies for unfixing it, but I think its back to how you left it now.
I think a lot of this comes down to the meaning of the word "remit". To me, this means "return for reconsideration". Not "annul" or "invalidate". From the original Danish, can you tell exactly what sense they mean? I believe that the response of the DSCD supports the "return for reconsideration" version, because what they seem to have done is thought about reconsidering it, and decided not to (and in that sense, it seems to me that they have disobeyed the instructions of the ministry). If the ministry (acting, say, in the sense of a court of appeal) had simply quashed the original decision, then there would be no further role for the DSCD.
Continuing... can you tell if the ministry has authority to quash/annul the decisions of the DCSD?
MichaelSirks 22:39, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC): Now that even William is convinced that the 6 of january 2003 was invalidated,
we could move on to correcting the text where it is suggested that the verdict still stands. I propose to take the timeline described in the final version of the DCDS and add a more detailed explanation why the ministery remitted the case. This proposed change is for the entire sections; Complaint to the Danish Committees on Scientific Dishonesty (DCSD), The Complaint is Overturned
(begin of proposed text) 6 January 2003: The DCDS reaches its decision in the complaint against Bjørn Lomborg’s book The Sceptical Environmentalist. The book was published by the Cambridge University Press in 2001.
The main point of the DCDS’s decision of 6 January 2003 is that from an objective point of view, it was a question of scientific dishonesty on the part of Bjørn Lomborg, because, among other reasons, the book was based on a systematically biased choice of data.
Because of Bjørn Lomborg’s lack of scientific expertise in the themes treated in the book, however, the DCDS did not find that Bjørn Lomborg had shown intentional or gross negligence. Bjørn Lomborg was therefore acquitted of the accusations of having acted in a manner considered scientifically dishonest. But the DCDS stated, at the same time, that he had clearly acted contrary to good scientific practice.
13 February 2003: Bjørn Lomborg files a complaint with the Ministry of Science, Technology and Innovation against the DCDS’s decision of 6 January 2003.
17 December 2003: The Ministry of Science, Technology and Innovation makes a decision in the case. The Ministry finds that the DCDS has made a number of procedural errors namely; The DCSD did not use a proper standard for deciding "good scientific practice" in the social sciences. The DCSD did not evaluate its authority to decide the case in regards to the order stipulating that "The case must be of importance to Danish research.". that DCSD did not document, where the defendant (BL) was biased in his choice of data and his argumentation, and that the decision lacks any argumentation for, why DCSD finds that the complainants are right in their criticisms of BLs working methods. It is not enough, that criticism of a researchers scientific working methods exists; DCSD must adopt an attitude to the criticism and take a stand to whether or not the criticism is just, and why. It is exactly these tasks that are DCSDs primary duty to solve, and since this have not occured, the decision must be remitted to DCSD, cf. what has been quoted above from administrative law of the consequence of neglecting the investigative principle. Such an considerable breach in DCSDs consideration of the case is in itself to be critiqued. The Ministry therefore remits the case to the DCDS. Furthermore, the Ministry’s decision states that it is up to the DCDS to determine whether it will re-examine the case. The Ministry explained at a later date that the decision of the Ministry must be taken to mean that the DCDS’s decision of 6 January 2003 is invalid.
12 March 2004: The Danish Committees on Scientific Dishonesty (DSCD) have finally ended their case, rejecting the original complaints. They have decided that the original decision is invalid and has ended any further inquiry.
(end of proposed text)
I started an RFC regarding user William M. Connolley, located here: Wikipedia:Requests for comment/William M. Connolley. If you are interested, please comment or sign as appropriate. -- — Cortonin | Talk 12:25, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
It is written more like a blog than an encylopaediac article. Shouldn't it carry a standards disclaimer tag or something?
I think this should be reverted. Since nothing new has happened in the case for several years he would have to argue for his changes. For me they don't make sense. The added sentence "The complaint was ultimately found to be without merit and dismissed." is not an accurate summary of what happened in this complex case at all. The qualification of the DSCD's findings with "the DCSD believes" even in sentences that start with "The main point of the DCDS’s decision [...] is" serves only to indicate the writer's disagreement with the findings. I don't see the point in reformulating the ministry point of view. -- Erik Corry 10:54, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
I don't agree that the peer review proves TSE was "accurate and worthy of publication". I think CUP's peer review simply meant it passed one of the internal checks that CUP used in determining whether to publish it. I'd be interested in what exactly the CUP peer review briefing was, what were they looking for and what was in their report? It is something that should be in the article (it it was, all of this peer-review back and forth -- JonGwynne -- would be disposed of). All I've found about the peer review so far is who the four reviewers were (and, criticisms that the choice of reviewers led to bias). Given the small size of the panel and the limited scope of their expertise relative to TSE, they couldn't have verified every detail. I'd guess it was more of an overall vetting, equivalent to running a potentially controversial news article past the lawyers and a couple of university proefessors or other recognized experts, to make sure there were no seriously actionable things or gross errors. It's one thing to say, "yeah, you could say that", and another to say, "yeah, you're probably right". Almost certainly, the CUP peer review wasn't at all like presenting each section of the book to a scientific review committee or journal in the main field it dealt with (i.e. as if TSE was a collection of peer-reviewed scientific papers in various fields). (In general, a lot of the Lomborg/TSE discussion here seems based on extremely superficial knowledge about the things being discussed, e.g. the details of the DCSD affair; who is HAN?; Lomborg's academic status and qualifications; how TSE should best be classified; how sound was the statistical work, measured by whatever "industry standards" for statistics exist?...) -- Tsavage 18:38, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
I just reported on the two signature collections. I don't mean to imply that there is a clean line where the social scientists back him and the natural scientists are against him, but I agree that the makeup of the signatories to the two signature collections does suggest a correllation. I don't think there is much of a case to be made that the signatures were maed in some environments where the one or the other sort of scientist was predominant: Both collections were made via email and were well publicised at the time, so there can be no question of them being secret. There are lots of other things to suggest a correlation between the type of scientist and their opinion on Lomborg if you care to look, starting with the list of publications that support or oppose Lomborg. However I didn't write anything about the correlation since I feel a fact like that would require a more thorough survey before it would be suitable for inclusion in a Wiki. I think my new version is an improvement on the old one in that it clarifies the context in which Skou and the others got involved in the discussion. I didn't mention that the second signature collection required signatories to hold at least a PhD in order to be allowed to sign :-). Incidentally I can no longer find the list of signatories online for the second collection, although I can find numerous media references to the signature collection taking place, the makeup of the signatories and the identity of the famous ones. I expect the list was published as an ad in some national paper at some point (that seems to be the 'standard procedure) -- Erik Corry 19:13, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
I removed the following section from the USC quote:
It's basically saying that the USC statement should be viewed with skepticism, a strong and unsupported charge. The same argument holds for the "HAN academics" (from the other side), and can be applied to greater or lesser degrees to every quote here, everybody's on a side. I don't think this is a profitable avenue to go down, not likely to lead to a more readable or authoritative article.
In this case, the "specifically pro-environmental" aspect should at least FIRST be made clear in the Union of Concerned Scientists article, which it is not at present. This whole Lomborg article needs work, including the USC quote (which for one is questionably grouped with the Economist and Scientific American under "Discussions in the media"), but I don't find tacking on that para to be of any help. -- Tsavage 19:03, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
Whether Bjorn Lomborg is gay or not should be relevant only if a detailed history of his life, bio, is given. Although, it is a pretty important piece of info, being presented in any other context, I do not see it as appropriate. I think that considering that he is such a good looking guy, many gay guys would like to know that he is gay, and probably they would like to get his phone number or email -I wonder who should we write to in order to get that info, any ideas anyone?- Going back to the point, and seriously this time, although some of his ideas are hard for me to accept in the order he presents them, I do not see him too far from a role in stirring up conversation and moving forces to really re-think how we are approaching the protection of the environment. It is not less important to notice that he makes some good points in terms of highlighting some important issues that need to be put in the forefront of the discussion and policies for the protection of the environment. My problem with his ideas is that all that we do, to protect the environment, is important, in my opinion, but more it is needed. I guess it would be nice to talk to him in person. I have seen him on TV a couple of times, but I have missed the chance to ask him a couple of questions myself. The topic is really serious, so is the way to approach it. As he presents things from a sided view, so do his detractors portray him.
Cut from article:
What's the difference between assistant professor ... lectured on statistics and is a statistician?
It sounds like a contributor is arguing that BL isn't qualified to discuss the statistics of the environment. If so, that POV should be attributed to a source outside Wikipedia - not simply stated as fact or insinuated. Uncle Ed 04:20, August 27, 2005 (UTC)
http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/lazy-thinkers-still-defend-bad-ideas/2005/10/12/1128796586029.html The Wikipedia article gives a correct description of Lomborg's specialisation, but no longer includes an explicit correction of the erroneous claim that he's a statisticain. I don't really have a problem with this. As an example of difficult statistical issues, the obvious one (but not the only one) is how to determine that a species is extinct. John Quiggin 03:18, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
Mr. Orzetto has vandalized the text of the timeline of the DCDS case. If he had read the talk pages he would know that this text is from the DCDS herself [16]. He should note that the initial verdict is no longer valid according to their own web-site and according to Kåre Fog who sad(see talk page); The ministry has informed UVVU that UVVU´s decision of 7th Jan. 2003 is no longer valid, because of the formal errors made in the treatment of the case. And because UVVU has decided not to hear the case again, there will not appear any new decision to replace the one that has been cancelled. Even the decision that Lomborg is "objectively dishonest" and has acted at variance with "good scientific practice" is no longer valid. There simply does not any longer exist any decision. Perhaps the most unfortunate consequence of this is that people in general are confused, and there is no authority to lean on when you want to find out what is right and wrong in this case. Expanding on the intial verdict by repeating the accusation is not interesting because the DCDS committee hasn't investigated and documented these accusations. This is according to the ministery of science and HAN. So what is your source that they did investigate the accusations. I have offered you the choice of investigating the accusation on wikipedia. I haven't got a response. So I reverted your initial change. Next came WMC reverts my revert without any comments why he reverts it. I thought he was on parole for reverting things without any comment.-- MichaelSirks 18:43, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
WMC changed the DCDS text from "a question of" to "found to be". Why did he changed it while the DCDS site says "a question of"? What is his reference for this? Is he suggesting that the DCDS doesn't know their own verdict? Please anwser else I have to revert.-- MichaelSirks 19:23, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Compare the layout of this page to some other controversial figure, like Noam Chomsky. Criticisms against Chomsky are placed where they belong: after a thorough discussion of what the man has done and what he believes. Anyone coming to Lomborg's page gets a cursory coverage of what he's done, and then a lengthy diatribe on ethics charges against him. It never should have been written that way, and it is a shame that it persists.
Shame on those who can't see through their biases.
-- Mark Nau
I agree with you. There are some people who want to discredite Lomborg, in order to dismiss the issues he raises. And this repeated throughout wikipedia with socalled sceptics. Lets look at the ethics charges; I first proposed to deal with the ethic charges in the TSE article because all the ethic charges are related to TSE. In my opinion this better because you first get the context of the book and then you get the ethic charges. But they refuse. Now they want expand on an invalidated verdict. That's the reason that I want to stay as close as possible to the original text of the DCDS. They want to rubbish Lomborg at every cost. -- MichaelSirks 20:41, 25 October 2005 (UTC)