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This article is misleading because it indirectly implies that the only existing use of ″Big Pharma″ is in the setting of a conspiracy theory.
The article is misleading because there is no other article on Wikipedia about ″Big Pharma″ used in the context outside of a conspiracy theory, which may indirectly mislead readers about the existence of other ways to use the term. Also, the article is negatively biased against the conspiracy theory, which may cause some individuals to become negatively biased against people who refer to the pharmaceutical business as ″big pharma″ even though they have very limited information about the way the term is used.
Because of these reasons I'm putting a warning label on the article, although a superior solution would be to create an article about the cultural uses and meaning of Big Pharma with a section about it's use in the conspiracy theory.
Here are a few sources that are using ″Big Pharma″ in the context outside of a conspiracy theory. They were extremely easy to find by simply searching ″Big Pharma″ in Google Scholar, and there are a whole lot more examples other than the ones I chose.
Why don't the article say anything about Steven Novellas links to: https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/American_Council_on_Science_and_Health Novella is biased! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.224.164.59 ( talk) 11:02, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
Within journal articles:
Non journal articles that use ″Big Pharma″ in a non-conspiracy setting.
John — You are right that the topic of the article is about conspiricy theory. However, the arguments that I stated earlier for my claims remain unaddressed, so I'm bringing back the warning I put up earlier. My primary argument is that the exclusion of information about the more common use of ″big pharma″ is indirectly misleading to people who read the article mostly because there is no other link within the article that gives knowledge to alternate uses of the phrase.
I'll put the label back up and I'd also be more than willing to extend the article myself this weekend so the warning label doesn't stay there for centuries.
Edit: Also, I need to mention that another reason I find this article misleading is that there is no other page that is actually about the concept of ″Big Pharma″ and the way it's most often used in our society. In the very least the article should mention this and give a distinction between the phrase used as a conspiracy and the phrase used to refer to corporate greed. Johnnmillerr ( talk) 04:46, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
John — You're right, I won't put back up the header tag as I can see how that isn't warranted as of yet. However, I'm going to continue to be a ″broken record″ here. I have twice clearly stated an argument for my claim that this article is misleading and there has literally been no response to that argument and the logic behind it. I may be totally new to editing Wikipedia pages, but I'm sure that there is a Wikipedia policy somewhere about dismissing dispute claims without properly addressing them. Johnnmillerr ( talk) 18:48, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
I would not consider the link to the Pharmaceutical industry, which redirects from ″Big Pharma″, a logical response to my statement that this article is misleading, nor that how ″big pharma″ is not a neutral term is relevant to my claim. This is because these things have very little to do with the reasons why I stated that this argument is misleading. (In a nutshell, my claim was that feeding people limited information about the phrase may indirectly cause them to make false assumptions about said phrase.) Johnnmillerr ( talk) 18:57, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
One more edit. It's also disputable to say that one cannot create an encyclopedia entry on a biased view if the entry is about the prevalence of the view in society and is also written in a neutral way. Now, upon further exploration of Wikipedia I now see that it would be very foolish to name the page ″Big Pharma″, but it would certainly be a thoughtful idea to create a page devoted to social distrust of large pharmaceutical companies in America. If I turned this into a research project and created this page, I don't think anyone would object. Johnnmillerr ( talk) 19:09, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
John — You're right that it wouldn't make any sense to have it as an article of its own, and I'm probably not the guy to do it anyways (at least by myself), but, like I said, it wouldn't be POV unless you created it that way.
So do you agree or disagree regarding my claim that the article is indirectly misleading? If you disagree, then why doesn't my argument that it's misleading make sense? Johnnmillerr ( talk) 21:01, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
John — When someone visits this page, we should take into account the likelihood that they have not heard the phrase ″Big Pharma″ before. This term by no means warrants a section on it's own (you have changed my mind about that.) I still believe that this article can indirectly mislead a small amount of people for the reasons stated in earlier posts. I still feel the need to hold true to this claim until those individual reasons can be specifically addressed and shown to be wrong.
Once again, the biggest reason why I think the article is misleading is that the phrase is used to describe the conspiracy theory, and also because there is no reference to the phrase anywhere else in Wikipedia. My fear is that, after reading this article, someone completely unfamiliar with the phrase ″big pharma″ would falsely form the impression that the phrase is always be referring to a conspiracy theory.
After surfing through Wikipedia, I found an article that loosely supports my point, which is Pig Latin. At the header of the article, it states, ″This article is about the language game. For the programming language, see Pig (programming tool).″ From my point of view it seems unlikely that anyone would confuse ″Pig Latin″ with ″Pig programming language″. I think it would be wise to make a similar edit to this article to accommodate for the unlikely.
My suggestion for this article is to add this header to the page:
or something along those lines. Johnnmillerr ( talk) 06:11, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
John — haha you edited the article before I spend a bunch of time nearly completely rewriting my last post.
I also didn't expect that this would be resolved, so thank you. I've never done a wikipedia edit before, and most of my "internet arguments" occur on YouTube and website forums where people feed off of disagreement and hold onto their egos for dear life. Johnnmillerr ( talk) 06:38, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
User:Alexbrn in his last edit chose to reinstate the original article that IMO is a good deal beyond neutrality. It is true that there exist accusations against "big pharma". But this has nothing to do the general usage of the term "big pharma" which in general is used to summarily address the biggest mulitnational pharmaceutical companies. Leaving this article as is means skewing the perception of what "big pharma" discussions in the real world are usually about. Even worse: it tends towards defamation of the well-justified usage in discussions about healthcare costs and pharma product prices. I propose redirection to the more balanced overview of big pharma or revert of the revert that was done without giving reasons, but rather an annoying rebuff. -- Kku 16:45, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
This edit appears to have been removed: This article is about the conspiracy theory. For the phrase ″big pharma″ used to imply skepticism of the pharmaceutical industry as a whole, see Pharmaceutical industry § Controversies.
However it seemed an important signpost, as otherwise the issues raised above remain. This includes importantly that the article as it stands leaves the reader with the sense that any criticism of the pharmaceutical industry is part of the conspiracy theory. And there are many criticisms of the pharmaceutical industry, such as those detailed in Ben Goldacre's 'Bad Pharma' book, which are not conspiracy.
User:Alexbrn are you able to re-add that tagline? Sorry I have not been able to work out how to do so. ImpartialErnesto ( talk) 15:54, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
This article is about a conspiracy theory. For the pharmaceutical industry in general, see Pharmaceutical industry.– this is fine. Alexbrn ( talk) 16:05, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
Apparently, the article is based on a student project paper for a class, which cites only one main source. The opposite point of view is not even represented. I would like to have at least one section to provide the opposite perspective, which would create the desired neutrality of Wiki, and allow the reader to judge from himself. Alternative, well-documented and researched, point of view, can be found in Lawrence Golbom: Not Safe as Prescribed. For an interview with Lawrence Golbom, which provides an overview, see: Big Pharma Noir Asaduzaman ( talk) 00:10, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
A prominent and recent example was a systematic review published in the British Medical Journal showing that paracetamol is ineffective for lower back pain and has minimal effectiveness for osteoarthritis.[16] This isn't a very convincing argument, Paracetemol is o cheap there can't be much profit in it. If you were a 'conspiracy theorist' then you might think the drug companies were behinf this so they could push more expensive pain-killers. On a general point wikipedia articles about 'conspiracy theories' are genearlly pretty worthless. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.28.27.203 ( talk) 11:38, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
I agree that many conspiracy theories surrounding 'big pharma' are indeed nutty. However, conspiracies happen, so being a conspiracy theory isn't in itself proof of invalidity. Indeed, like all industries, the pharmaceutical industry has been caught up in proven conspiracies. E.g. see here for a paper on data fraud in clinical trials: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4340084/
I do believe that to approach this article from a truly neutral point of view there must be a discussion of proven and disproven conspiracies surrounding the pharmaceutical industry. Otherwise the 'nutty conspiracy theorists' will point to this article as proof of information censorship. Gul e ( talk) 22:14, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
The problem I see with this is that stating the other side of an argument that is held by a fairly significant number of people is simply NOT a WP:GEVAL issue. WP:GEVAL applies to views that aren't just a minority, but are held by so few people that the view isn't a significant one relative to the subject. Rather, by defintion of a "conspiracy theory" in and of itself, WP:GEVAL simply doesn't apply, logically speaking. Rather, using a "class paper" if anything would be considered a non-reliable source for more than a few reasons. 98.178.191.34 ( talk) 17:05, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
This article is not bad but it's very short and I bet there is a lot more out there that can be referenced on the topic and make it an even better article. I will be doing the expansion work in a sandbox so if you have any suggestions please let me know here. Rap Chart Mike ( talk) 19:46, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
this article is complete and utter propaganda by Big Pharma themselves - i can't beleive wiki editors are stupid enough to fall for it https://finance.yahoo.com/news/congress-big-pharma-money-123757664.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.178.13.94 ( talk) 04:54, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
I was wondering if we could add a section for transgender healthcare? This seems to be a particularly common Big Pharma conspiracy theory I encounter nowadays. Earfetish1 ( talk) 14:59, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This is an appallingly framed article apparently originally based on a student paper, and one of the worst-framed in wikipedia's library, because as mentioned by many users, it gives the impression that any critique using the phrase "big pharma" is a comprehensive and overarching conspiracy theory. This is absolute nonsense ; there are multiple critiques of the commercial and political-lobbying influence of large pharmaceutical companies that use this phrase, without assuming that they are working to a global masterplan to deny treatment. The objection raised above that these are dealt with by redirecting to "pharmaceutical industry" is absurd - that is a huge and wide-ranging article that doesn't deal with critiques of the pharmaceutical industry specifically or in isolation. Siphoning away any legitimate criticism to a much more generic page mistakenly gives the impression there are no coherent and free-standing critiques of the pharmaceutical industry strong enough in themselves to warrant their own entry and page. 86.183.33.167 ( talk) 09:19, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
You're not making any sense. Perhaps draft your new article so people can see what you're on about, and then take it to WP:AFC. The conversation here is going nowhere. Alexbrn ( talk) 12:51, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
What I do agree on is that a new and more comprehensive article needs to be created too, and there I'd like to contribute in the future.
Which are the reliable sources ? Here are the top six entries that appear for the term "Big Pharma" that appear online. None of them are to do with marginal ideas of global conspiracy.
https://www.drugwatch.com/manufacturers/
https://www.thepharmaletter.com/article/annual-revenue-of-top-10-big-pharma-companies
https://theintercept.com/2020/03/13/big-pharma-drug-pricing-coronavirus-profits/
https://deserthopetreatment.com/addiction-guide/drug-industry-trends/
The sole exception among them is this article ; violating wikipedia's NPOV terms on prevailing use ; and which comes up as unrepresentative 2nd amongst them. I understand that it may be only be intended to deal with a very specific area, but it is skewing a worldwide debate due to its casual and undifferentiated use of the term and subsequent visibility online, indifference to which may be the result of personal, professional or other biases on the part of some editors.
86.183.33.167 ( talk) 13:25, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
We're not good. The article comes up second around the world for "Big Pharma", not just "Big Pharma Conspiracy Theories". If that's a cause for indifference, I would suggest not only the site's search and algorithm policies as s whole, but more easily and helpfully individual wikipedia editors themselves, are not doing their job.
86.183.33.167 ( talk) 13:42, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
It is not a summary of the knowledge of that topic if it doesn't represent either the majority use of phrase, or the majority of sources for it outside the interest of specific editors, with their own specific personal, professional or other counter-agendas. What I see here is sadly what I see on wikipedia far too often ; a carefully literal knowledge and intepretation of the site rules to defend what are clearly particular prejudices and biases.
86.183.33.167 ( talk) 14:08, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/congress-big-pharma-money-123757664.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.178.13.94 ( talk) 04:56, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
To conclude, here is a randomly chosen recent piece on Big Pharma from online, and by far one the most common uses of the term - unlike many of the marginal and unrepresentative sources chosen here, it's one of literally thousands like it. It's by a Professor at Imperial College, London, and it addresses the question of whether "Big Pharma" is holding back our fight against Coronavirus. It clearly treats Big Pharma as a unified entity, but not as an overarching or orchestrated plan. Does that mean it's part of the conspiracy theory, as outlined here ? If not, why aren't there counter-arguments and dissections of the term, as most commonly used, available on this page ? I would suggest part of the reason is a very common historical unfamiliarity with the uses and abuses of the term conspiracy theory among data-orientated people. Have a good day, everyone.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/02/coronavirus-vaccine-big-pharma-data
86.183.33.167 ( talk) 14:48, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
Harsh, but typical of wikipedia, sadly. In fact, I only raised that link, specifically, because it fits the description of this page an editor earlier raised of "the term Big Pharma as "shorthand for an abstract entity comprising corporations, regulators, NGOs, politicians, and often physicians, all with a finger in the trillion-dollar prescription pharmaceutical pie". The article can certainly be caught by that, but does that make it part of the conspiracy theory ? I suggest much more careful cultural reflection and study about the term 'conspiracy theory' by editors, if they want to consider themselves objective. And that really is it from me on this, bothering everyone's afternoon or morning - happy rest of the day to all !
86.183.33.167 ( talk) 15:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
This article is absolutely disgusting. If you google "Big Pharma", this is the first result that comes up. It's as if all use of "Big Pharma" is somehow suggestive of a conspiracy regarding, of course, a very noble and honorable industry. Conspiracy theories regarding the pharmaceutical industry would be a more appropriate title. The term "Big Pharma conspiracy theory" does NOT appear in all but one of the sources cited and is definitely not WP:COMMONNAME. Most people would associate Pharmaceutical marketing or Pharmaceutical lobby when they hear "Big Pharma" but none of those articles uses the term in their titles. Halskw ( talk) 04:23, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Aherrera8827.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 18:00, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
The problem I see with this is that the references appear to be rather one-sided on the issue, and particularly ignore the more recent well-documented scandals in the pharmaceutical industry which posit the potential question of whether there is widespread corruption involved in the government regulating bodies, such as the FDA. See, e.g. the anti-depressant "black box" scandal, et al. Rather the article to me seems to imply that there haven't been significant large-scale scandals in the industry, which media coverage refutes. My reason for not simply doing a re-write or addition is because the research would take a large amount of time. 98.178.191.34 ( talk) 16:59, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
So let me just ask you, as human beings that we are: do you think Purdue Pharma was dissolved because somebody conspired against this honest, open and well-intentioned organization? Do you think that it is fine to put an entire nation on addictive opioids and simply get away with it, because this is what Big Pharma is about. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/01/health/purdue-sacklers-opioids-settlement.html
Do you think that it is okay that the revolving door policy exists, whereby former employees of FDA get hired as directors of companies and vice versa, as is the case with the infamous former FDA chief and now the director of Pfizer, Albert Bourla? These people belong in prison, and should not be responsible for anything related to healthcare. Is it okay for Pfizer to have profited more on vaccines alone than in the entire cycle of 2020?
I am only scratching the surface in my comment, and as long as Wikipedia keeps this shameful page, this article is the evidence of the lack of freedom of speech and full control of big pharma over any published information online. — Preceding unsigned comment added by S0793217 ( talk • contribs) 01:32, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
The only solid source I can see in this article is the first article from Robert Blaskiewicz, who btw teaches English (not science), and the article definitely fails WP:MEDRS. The only other sources that use the general term "Big Pharma conspiracy theory" are from the "Center for Inquiry", a skeptical not for profit that doesn't publish its funding!?! and the articles by Steven Novella, for which he's the head of the New England Skeptical Society (also unpublished funding), and thus is borderline self published.
Every other source in this article just refers to individual medical conspiracy theories, and this article tries to the them into "big pharma conspiracy theory" without the original author doing so. This is certainly original research.
I should mention that Robert Blaskiewicz also part of the Center for Inquiry. I have nothing against the skeptical movement, but this whole article comes from their movement.
I get that medical conspiracy theories are legitimately dangerous. At the same time, this article seems to paint any criticism of massive for-profit medical companies as a conspiracy theory, as other editors on the talk page here have mentioned. Stix1776 ( talk) 08:00, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
Conspiracy theories do not stop at accusing “big pharma” of misconduct,; [2] is rather clearly on topic just from the title. "Big pharma" is in use by the conspiracists themselves, but also outside of that simply to refer to the pharmaceutic industry; (search PubMed for "big pharma"). And of course, since it is a conspiracy theory, there's a good argument that we should call a spade a spade. RandomCanadian ( talk / contribs) 04:25, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
sources 2-5 were think tanks and/or blogs"← Ben Goldacre's book is not a blog, and he's not a thinktank either. [3]. And although Science-Based Medicine is nominally a blog, it is also of course a golden source for woo like this topic, as the community have repeatedly had to assert in the face of its WP:PROFRINGE haters. WP:PARITY comes into play here too, so skeptical sources are likely to be great for the knowledge we want. Alexbrn ( talk) 05:32, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
Is said that Medical Writing was "solid", but that sources 2-5 were think tanks and/or blogs.The third source is a book by an acknowledged expert. Steven Novella is an acknowledged expert (a neurologist) as well as an acknowledged subject-matter (medical conspiracy theories) expert. The argument only holds water with respect to the Radford source. Even then, as I already pointed out: this argument has been rejected multiple times by this community, mostly because it completely ignores the fact that that the CfI has consistently proven itself to be a highly reliable source for content like this. Repeating poor arguments does not make them better. Happy ( Slap me) 12:54, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
I agree that the only substantial source for the conspiracy theory is Blaskiewicz' essay. Also, the article implies that critics of pharmaceutical companies are conspiracy theorists. So for example this article says, "A common claim among proponents of the conspiracy theory is that pharmaceutical companies suppress negative research about their drugs by financially pressuring researchers and journals." The implication is that people who accuse the industry of pressuring researchers are conspiracy theorists. Blaskiewicz says that all big pharma conspiracy theorists envision the industry as "improbably powerful, competent, and craven."
We've all read about this lately. Covid was invented in order to kill off white people. Covid vaccines give you covid or implant microchips. But that's not the same sort of claim as that Moderna and Pfizer do not want to give up their patents because they are sources of revenue.
The statement in the lead therefore is false: "In each case the conspiracy theorists have blamed pharmaceutical companies' search for profits." What distinguishes conspiratorial thinking is that they don't accept the obvious motive. Alex Jones for example did not claim that the Deepwater Horizon oil spill occurred because BP cut corners on safety in its "search for profits." Instead, it was to persuade people that global warming was real and to concentrate power in world government in order to kill off white people and replace them with non-whites who could be more easily controlled.
TFD ( talk) 01:06, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
Conspiracy theories do not stop at accusing “big pharma” of misconduct, but they also claim that governmental institutions, scientific associations, and academia are involved. Assertions often include the notion that powerful industries put pressure on scientists in academia to cover up “the truth”. “Some conspiracy believers view the entire scientific enterprise as a conspiracy in itself. They view scientists as being corrupted by big pharma and as being part of the conspiracy”, Rutjens said.); and [5] (which, although it is a study, clearly shows this "Big Pharma conspiracy theory" phrase to be something that exists and has been studied by academics). "Big pharma conspiracy" or "pharmaceutical companies conspiracy" also yields plenty of other useful results; ex. [6]; [7]; [8] (
Seen from another perspective, the viral video of Dr Judy Mikovits blaming the coronavirus outbreak on a conspiracy led by big pharma, Bill Gates and the World Health Organization is the work of a discredited crank. But scientists fear that does not make her claims any less dangerous because, in an age of conspiracy theories, those about medicine have unusual potency.; [9]; [10]; [11]; also "medical conspiracy theories" ( [12]); [13]; [14]. I mean, there's plenty of content out there. Insisting that this is a concept which doesn't exist is at best tendentious and at worst deliberately economical with the truth. RandomCanadian ( talk / contribs) 01:48, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
IOW you think that the fact the term "Big Pharma conspiracy theories" has been used in reliable sources, despite the lack of any information about them other than that they are conspiracy theories about Big Pharma, establishes notability. TFD ( talk) 00:16, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
A range of authors have shown these claims to be false, though some of these authors nevertheless maintain that other criticisms of the pharmaceutical industry are legitimate.), well you're invited to WP:FIXIT, instead of inciting others to read your mind. You've obviously spent more time than me looking at this article, so if there are concrete issues you wish to have a discussion over, go ahead. Again, I agree that a distinction needs to be made between legitimate criticism and conspiracy theories - although this article should still focus primarily on the conspiracies, mostly because that's what readers would expect from such a title, and because Pharmaceutical_industry#Controversies exists and could probably be made into a full fledged article. Now stop chasing clouds and tell what exactly you think needs to be fixed. RandomCanadian ( talk / contribs) 01:09, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
"Or it may be that the topic has notability and it will force you to improve the article"← AfD is not for addressing any perceived WP:PROBLEM with the article. And taking an article to AfD when the nominator hasn't even determined whether it's notable or not reeks of bad faith. Alexbrn ( talk) 08:37, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
The Big Pharma conspiracy theory[15]. It then lists a bunch of examples of individual medical conspiracy theories, and writes that they are instances of Blaskiewicz's thesis. On Wikipedia this is called WP:SYNTH, a form of original research. Most egregious is the implication that pharmaceutical companies having acted
against the public goodis a conspiracy theory: see list of largest pharmaceutical settlements. I don't know what the right way forward for this article is. Endwise ( talk) 16:04, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
a rambling farrago of uninformed opinions, conspiracy theories and cheeky jabs at medical, pharmaceutical and governmental authorities ("they").Denying AIDS: Conspiracy Theories, Pseudoscience, and Human Tragedy is a pretty clear example of a book covering a specific conspiracy theory which other sources (the MIT review) also clearly identify as a "conspiracy theory about big phrama". Can't be much more direct than that. Combining the information from multiple reliable sources is not WP:SYNTH (nor is SYNTH the mere juxtaposition of such reliably sourced statements), it's the normal process of making a summary of secondary sources to write a proper tertiary source on the topic. RandomCanadian ( talk / contribs) 16:14, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
Specific variations of the conspiracy theory have included...and listing those examples. That is what I meant by WP:SYNTH. Endwise ( talk) 16:45, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
I said before I don't think an article on such conspiracy theories shouldn't exist, and I'm not looking to nominate this article for deletion. It is the content of the article I have an issue with. If there are other sources which identify this superstructure under which all other conspiracy theories about the pharmaceutical industry sit, we should write the article based on those, not based on a synthesis of examples. Or, probably an even better approach, is to rename this article to something like Conspiracy theories about the pharmaceutical industry
, and have this article be an overview of the different examples and the responses to those examples.
While I've got you here, for some additional motivation of why the wording of this article peeves me, here's an exercise: let's compare (relatively) mainstream left-wing rhetoric with what this article describes as a conspiracy theory:
Big Pharma knows that Medicare for All will make drugs more affordable. That’s why they pump so much money on Corporate Democrats. When politicians rely on Big Pharma money for re-election, they sabotage bills that will hurt their donors - even if it’s best for constituents[18] This article:
The Big Pharma conspiracy theory is a group of conspiracy theories that claim [...] pharmaceutical companies, especially large corporations, operate for sinister purposes and against the public good
Big Pharma money = opioid epidemic[19] This article:
The Big Pharma conspiracy theory is a group of conspiracy theories that claim [...] pharmaceutical companies, especially large corporations [...] cause and worsen a wide range of diseases for the only purpose of profitability.
Would you be happy describing AOC as a conspiracy theorist
on her article because of this?
Endwise (
talk)
pharma companies are a component in a giant secret cabal: this is not what this article says the "Big Pharma conspiracy theory" is. It says the "Big Pharma conspiracy theory" is claiming that pharma companies a) act against the public good, b) conceal effective treatments, or c) their profit motive worsens diseases. Endwise ( talk) 17:35, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
Conspiracy theories about the pharmaceutical industryand discuss an overview of the different examples, or should be deleted. Arguing for the position that conspiracy theories about the pharmaceutical industry are instantiations of a grander conspiracy theory called the "the Big Pharma conspiracy theory" (the belief that pharma companies act against the public good, conceal effective treatments, or have a profit motive which worsens diseases) doesn't seem to be borne out by sources. This article is an overview of Blaskiewicz's essay, backed up by a synthesis of examples of specific medical conspiracy theories. So if there is not a desire to create such an article on "Conspiracy theories about the pharmaceutical industry", I would support deletion. Endwise ( talk) 05:33, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
"Big pharma conspiracy" or "pharmaceutical companies conspiracy" also yields plenty of other useful results"; and find that comment, and stop arguing that there are "no sources". If you nominate this for deletion, it's clearly going to fall under WP:CSK no. 2d and I'm not going to hesitate half a second before closing it with just that rationale even if I'm involved (and then I'll promptly file a report somewhere for the obviously tendentious nature of this whole thing). as for your "making great contributions", Wikipedia is not compulsory and nobody is forced to obey your desires. If there is some concrete and specific proposal you wish to implement, go ahead. Otherwise stop making vague assertions and complaining about "obvious" problems which you can't be bothered to fix yourself. RandomCanadian ( talk / contribs) 13:33, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
I can find only one article (Blaskiewicz) with "Big Pharma conpsiracy" in the title and a self-published book called "The Big Pharma Conspiracy." While the terms conspiracy theory and "Big Pharma" appear in passing, sometimes juxtaposed, in a number of sources, there is no substantial body of literature about the topic. AS GNG says, "Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention." Some of the hits return results such as "Opioid Manufacturer Purdue Pharma Pleads Guilty to Fraud and Kickback Conspiracies" (DOJ November 24, 2020). Can you point to any other books or articles about the topic? TFD ( talk) 14:05, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
"I can find only one article (Blaskiewicz) with "Big Pharma conpsiracy" in the title ..."← can't have been much of a search when the first three refs of this very Wikipedia article have that text in it. Maybe your spelling difficulties are hampering you? Alexbrn ( talk) 14:16, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
Big Pharma Conspiracies Pharmaceutical companies are, of course, in business for profit and there is plenty of history of Big Pharma engaging in exploitation and questionable practices. It is these historical realities that fuel the Big Pharma conspiracy, extending well beyond the drug companies themselves. Most Big Pharma-conspiracies tie together the US government, philanthropists, and anyone who tries to get antiretroviral treatments to people living with HIV/AIDS[...] Of course, the Big Pharma conspiracy is much broader than just HIV/ AIDS. Journalist David Crowe, for example, has written extensively on the corruption of Big Pharma in promoting cancer treatment, claiming that cancer diagnostic tests and treatments, just like AIDS treatments, are poison for profit. [...] Crowe says that neither mammograms nor prostate screening have been proven to reduce cancer mortality in a large population. His argument is that the medical care industry promotes screening and treatments based on ‘‘the power and prestige of the medical establishment,’’ overlooking alternative and natural treatments which are safe and effective. How is it possible that safer and effective treatments are not the scientific standard for AIDS and cancer treatment? Crowe says the answer is simple. There is widespread corruption in the peer review system that suppresses natural remedies in order to protect the interests of the pharmaceutical industry, the censorship conspiracy.Tewdar 19:17, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
if you could provide any sources to establish notability of the topic.Those have been provided; multiple times (and many are included in the article as well). You have neither provided any valid reason why they would not count (the requirements of WP:SIGCOV are rather clear, and despite your repeated assertions that "a full three page article" or "a few dedicated pages in a larger book" are not enough, or your claims that you are familiar with it,
Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, but it does not need to be the main topic of the source material.is rather unambiguous enough, and very much at odds with the position you seem to be defending), nor do you seem to have attempted to take a look at the provided sources yourself to use them to improve the article (which, given your insistence on others improving the article, while refusing to do so yourself, or even to state what exactly you think needs to be fixed, is becoming rather disruptive the more it goes on). Either come up with some actual meat to beef up your arguments, or accept that the horse has bolted and find some other clouds to chase. RandomCanadian ( talk / contribs) 03:14, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
The fact that AIDS denialists have been ostracised from mainstream scientific institutions or have difficulties obtaining funding is attributed to the actions of the ‘Big Pharma’ eager to conceal its sinister motivations, stifle dissenting voices and maintain the so-called AIDS industry, the ‘global, multibillion-dollar juggernaut of diagnostics, drugs, and activist organizations’and
Likewise, resistance to flu or MMR vaccination is often sustained by the view of ‘Big Pharma’ and (mainly Western) governments as a menacing force conspiring against ordinary people.Tewdar 09:39, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
True "conspiracy theories" are extremely rare and have the reputation of usually being flaky thus making the term a pejorative. The far more common use of the term is to mislabel any type of an allegation of wrongdoing as a "conspiracy theory" in order to deprecate the allegation or the person making it. Or, if a type of allegation is 99% simply an allegation or something negative someone wishes to spotlight, and 1% has some conspiracy or theory aspect, a common attack maneuver is to exaggerate the 1% and deprecate the 99% by covering the whole thing as a "conspiracy theory" or only covering the 1% "conspiracy theory" aspect of it. This article is full of problems like that, with related wiki-violations. You best bet would be to re-title the article eliminating "conspiracy theory" so that it encompasses the whole 100% / current content of the article. Or move the 99% out to a new article to provide real coverage of it's main current content elsewhere and leave this article title as a stub covering the remaining 1% that is actually conspiracy theories. North8000 ( talk) 14:08, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
Alexbrn:There was no deliberate large content deletion. I removed a couple of books that I couldnt see were about conspiracies. And I sorted content into sections. Please check it again, and if you have problems with any specific content, please edit that section, dont just nuke everything... I am also more than happy to discuss anything here, instead of diving into an edit war... All the best / Teaparty ( talk) 12:55, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
@ Teaparty: It would be helpful if you did multiple smaller edits, that way it is easier for others to leave your good edits and revert your controversial ones, as well as it making it easier for others to follow what you are doing. I recommend you make deletions separately to additions, justifying each deletion, and re-organizations separately as well. It looks to me like some of your changes are helpful and properly sourced, but it was hard to follow in such a huge change. Thanks!! --- Avatar317 (talk) 20:58, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
This article is misleading because it indirectly implies that the only existing use of ″Big Pharma″ is in the setting of a conspiracy theory.
The article is misleading because there is no other article on Wikipedia about ″Big Pharma″ used in the context outside of a conspiracy theory, which may indirectly mislead readers about the existence of other ways to use the term. Also, the article is negatively biased against the conspiracy theory, which may cause some individuals to become negatively biased against people who refer to the pharmaceutical business as ″big pharma″ even though they have very limited information about the way the term is used.
Because of these reasons I'm putting a warning label on the article, although a superior solution would be to create an article about the cultural uses and meaning of Big Pharma with a section about it's use in the conspiracy theory.
Here are a few sources that are using ″Big Pharma″ in the context outside of a conspiracy theory. They were extremely easy to find by simply searching ″Big Pharma″ in Google Scholar, and there are a whole lot more examples other than the ones I chose.
Why don't the article say anything about Steven Novellas links to: https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/American_Council_on_Science_and_Health Novella is biased! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.224.164.59 ( talk) 11:02, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
Within journal articles:
Non journal articles that use ″Big Pharma″ in a non-conspiracy setting.
John — You are right that the topic of the article is about conspiricy theory. However, the arguments that I stated earlier for my claims remain unaddressed, so I'm bringing back the warning I put up earlier. My primary argument is that the exclusion of information about the more common use of ″big pharma″ is indirectly misleading to people who read the article mostly because there is no other link within the article that gives knowledge to alternate uses of the phrase.
I'll put the label back up and I'd also be more than willing to extend the article myself this weekend so the warning label doesn't stay there for centuries.
Edit: Also, I need to mention that another reason I find this article misleading is that there is no other page that is actually about the concept of ″Big Pharma″ and the way it's most often used in our society. In the very least the article should mention this and give a distinction between the phrase used as a conspiracy and the phrase used to refer to corporate greed. Johnnmillerr ( talk) 04:46, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
John — You're right, I won't put back up the header tag as I can see how that isn't warranted as of yet. However, I'm going to continue to be a ″broken record″ here. I have twice clearly stated an argument for my claim that this article is misleading and there has literally been no response to that argument and the logic behind it. I may be totally new to editing Wikipedia pages, but I'm sure that there is a Wikipedia policy somewhere about dismissing dispute claims without properly addressing them. Johnnmillerr ( talk) 18:48, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
I would not consider the link to the Pharmaceutical industry, which redirects from ″Big Pharma″, a logical response to my statement that this article is misleading, nor that how ″big pharma″ is not a neutral term is relevant to my claim. This is because these things have very little to do with the reasons why I stated that this argument is misleading. (In a nutshell, my claim was that feeding people limited information about the phrase may indirectly cause them to make false assumptions about said phrase.) Johnnmillerr ( talk) 18:57, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
One more edit. It's also disputable to say that one cannot create an encyclopedia entry on a biased view if the entry is about the prevalence of the view in society and is also written in a neutral way. Now, upon further exploration of Wikipedia I now see that it would be very foolish to name the page ″Big Pharma″, but it would certainly be a thoughtful idea to create a page devoted to social distrust of large pharmaceutical companies in America. If I turned this into a research project and created this page, I don't think anyone would object. Johnnmillerr ( talk) 19:09, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
John — You're right that it wouldn't make any sense to have it as an article of its own, and I'm probably not the guy to do it anyways (at least by myself), but, like I said, it wouldn't be POV unless you created it that way.
So do you agree or disagree regarding my claim that the article is indirectly misleading? If you disagree, then why doesn't my argument that it's misleading make sense? Johnnmillerr ( talk) 21:01, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
John — When someone visits this page, we should take into account the likelihood that they have not heard the phrase ″Big Pharma″ before. This term by no means warrants a section on it's own (you have changed my mind about that.) I still believe that this article can indirectly mislead a small amount of people for the reasons stated in earlier posts. I still feel the need to hold true to this claim until those individual reasons can be specifically addressed and shown to be wrong.
Once again, the biggest reason why I think the article is misleading is that the phrase is used to describe the conspiracy theory, and also because there is no reference to the phrase anywhere else in Wikipedia. My fear is that, after reading this article, someone completely unfamiliar with the phrase ″big pharma″ would falsely form the impression that the phrase is always be referring to a conspiracy theory.
After surfing through Wikipedia, I found an article that loosely supports my point, which is Pig Latin. At the header of the article, it states, ″This article is about the language game. For the programming language, see Pig (programming tool).″ From my point of view it seems unlikely that anyone would confuse ″Pig Latin″ with ″Pig programming language″. I think it would be wise to make a similar edit to this article to accommodate for the unlikely.
My suggestion for this article is to add this header to the page:
or something along those lines. Johnnmillerr ( talk) 06:11, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
John — haha you edited the article before I spend a bunch of time nearly completely rewriting my last post.
I also didn't expect that this would be resolved, so thank you. I've never done a wikipedia edit before, and most of my "internet arguments" occur on YouTube and website forums where people feed off of disagreement and hold onto their egos for dear life. Johnnmillerr ( talk) 06:38, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
User:Alexbrn in his last edit chose to reinstate the original article that IMO is a good deal beyond neutrality. It is true that there exist accusations against "big pharma". But this has nothing to do the general usage of the term "big pharma" which in general is used to summarily address the biggest mulitnational pharmaceutical companies. Leaving this article as is means skewing the perception of what "big pharma" discussions in the real world are usually about. Even worse: it tends towards defamation of the well-justified usage in discussions about healthcare costs and pharma product prices. I propose redirection to the more balanced overview of big pharma or revert of the revert that was done without giving reasons, but rather an annoying rebuff. -- Kku 16:45, 9 February 2017 (UTC)
This edit appears to have been removed: This article is about the conspiracy theory. For the phrase ″big pharma″ used to imply skepticism of the pharmaceutical industry as a whole, see Pharmaceutical industry § Controversies.
However it seemed an important signpost, as otherwise the issues raised above remain. This includes importantly that the article as it stands leaves the reader with the sense that any criticism of the pharmaceutical industry is part of the conspiracy theory. And there are many criticisms of the pharmaceutical industry, such as those detailed in Ben Goldacre's 'Bad Pharma' book, which are not conspiracy.
User:Alexbrn are you able to re-add that tagline? Sorry I have not been able to work out how to do so. ImpartialErnesto ( talk) 15:54, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
This article is about a conspiracy theory. For the pharmaceutical industry in general, see Pharmaceutical industry.– this is fine. Alexbrn ( talk) 16:05, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
Apparently, the article is based on a student project paper for a class, which cites only one main source. The opposite point of view is not even represented. I would like to have at least one section to provide the opposite perspective, which would create the desired neutrality of Wiki, and allow the reader to judge from himself. Alternative, well-documented and researched, point of view, can be found in Lawrence Golbom: Not Safe as Prescribed. For an interview with Lawrence Golbom, which provides an overview, see: Big Pharma Noir Asaduzaman ( talk) 00:10, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
A prominent and recent example was a systematic review published in the British Medical Journal showing that paracetamol is ineffective for lower back pain and has minimal effectiveness for osteoarthritis.[16] This isn't a very convincing argument, Paracetemol is o cheap there can't be much profit in it. If you were a 'conspiracy theorist' then you might think the drug companies were behinf this so they could push more expensive pain-killers. On a general point wikipedia articles about 'conspiracy theories' are genearlly pretty worthless. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.28.27.203 ( talk) 11:38, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
I agree that many conspiracy theories surrounding 'big pharma' are indeed nutty. However, conspiracies happen, so being a conspiracy theory isn't in itself proof of invalidity. Indeed, like all industries, the pharmaceutical industry has been caught up in proven conspiracies. E.g. see here for a paper on data fraud in clinical trials: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4340084/
I do believe that to approach this article from a truly neutral point of view there must be a discussion of proven and disproven conspiracies surrounding the pharmaceutical industry. Otherwise the 'nutty conspiracy theorists' will point to this article as proof of information censorship. Gul e ( talk) 22:14, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
The problem I see with this is that stating the other side of an argument that is held by a fairly significant number of people is simply NOT a WP:GEVAL issue. WP:GEVAL applies to views that aren't just a minority, but are held by so few people that the view isn't a significant one relative to the subject. Rather, by defintion of a "conspiracy theory" in and of itself, WP:GEVAL simply doesn't apply, logically speaking. Rather, using a "class paper" if anything would be considered a non-reliable source for more than a few reasons. 98.178.191.34 ( talk) 17:05, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
This article is not bad but it's very short and I bet there is a lot more out there that can be referenced on the topic and make it an even better article. I will be doing the expansion work in a sandbox so if you have any suggestions please let me know here. Rap Chart Mike ( talk) 19:46, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
this article is complete and utter propaganda by Big Pharma themselves - i can't beleive wiki editors are stupid enough to fall for it https://finance.yahoo.com/news/congress-big-pharma-money-123757664.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.178.13.94 ( talk) 04:54, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
I was wondering if we could add a section for transgender healthcare? This seems to be a particularly common Big Pharma conspiracy theory I encounter nowadays. Earfetish1 ( talk) 14:59, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This is an appallingly framed article apparently originally based on a student paper, and one of the worst-framed in wikipedia's library, because as mentioned by many users, it gives the impression that any critique using the phrase "big pharma" is a comprehensive and overarching conspiracy theory. This is absolute nonsense ; there are multiple critiques of the commercial and political-lobbying influence of large pharmaceutical companies that use this phrase, without assuming that they are working to a global masterplan to deny treatment. The objection raised above that these are dealt with by redirecting to "pharmaceutical industry" is absurd - that is a huge and wide-ranging article that doesn't deal with critiques of the pharmaceutical industry specifically or in isolation. Siphoning away any legitimate criticism to a much more generic page mistakenly gives the impression there are no coherent and free-standing critiques of the pharmaceutical industry strong enough in themselves to warrant their own entry and page. 86.183.33.167 ( talk) 09:19, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
You're not making any sense. Perhaps draft your new article so people can see what you're on about, and then take it to WP:AFC. The conversation here is going nowhere. Alexbrn ( talk) 12:51, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
What I do agree on is that a new and more comprehensive article needs to be created too, and there I'd like to contribute in the future.
Which are the reliable sources ? Here are the top six entries that appear for the term "Big Pharma" that appear online. None of them are to do with marginal ideas of global conspiracy.
https://www.drugwatch.com/manufacturers/
https://www.thepharmaletter.com/article/annual-revenue-of-top-10-big-pharma-companies
https://theintercept.com/2020/03/13/big-pharma-drug-pricing-coronavirus-profits/
https://deserthopetreatment.com/addiction-guide/drug-industry-trends/
The sole exception among them is this article ; violating wikipedia's NPOV terms on prevailing use ; and which comes up as unrepresentative 2nd amongst them. I understand that it may be only be intended to deal with a very specific area, but it is skewing a worldwide debate due to its casual and undifferentiated use of the term and subsequent visibility online, indifference to which may be the result of personal, professional or other biases on the part of some editors.
86.183.33.167 ( talk) 13:25, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
We're not good. The article comes up second around the world for "Big Pharma", not just "Big Pharma Conspiracy Theories". If that's a cause for indifference, I would suggest not only the site's search and algorithm policies as s whole, but more easily and helpfully individual wikipedia editors themselves, are not doing their job.
86.183.33.167 ( talk) 13:42, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
It is not a summary of the knowledge of that topic if it doesn't represent either the majority use of phrase, or the majority of sources for it outside the interest of specific editors, with their own specific personal, professional or other counter-agendas. What I see here is sadly what I see on wikipedia far too often ; a carefully literal knowledge and intepretation of the site rules to defend what are clearly particular prejudices and biases.
86.183.33.167 ( talk) 14:08, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/congress-big-pharma-money-123757664.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.178.13.94 ( talk) 04:56, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
To conclude, here is a randomly chosen recent piece on Big Pharma from online, and by far one the most common uses of the term - unlike many of the marginal and unrepresentative sources chosen here, it's one of literally thousands like it. It's by a Professor at Imperial College, London, and it addresses the question of whether "Big Pharma" is holding back our fight against Coronavirus. It clearly treats Big Pharma as a unified entity, but not as an overarching or orchestrated plan. Does that mean it's part of the conspiracy theory, as outlined here ? If not, why aren't there counter-arguments and dissections of the term, as most commonly used, available on this page ? I would suggest part of the reason is a very common historical unfamiliarity with the uses and abuses of the term conspiracy theory among data-orientated people. Have a good day, everyone.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/02/coronavirus-vaccine-big-pharma-data
86.183.33.167 ( talk) 14:48, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
Harsh, but typical of wikipedia, sadly. In fact, I only raised that link, specifically, because it fits the description of this page an editor earlier raised of "the term Big Pharma as "shorthand for an abstract entity comprising corporations, regulators, NGOs, politicians, and often physicians, all with a finger in the trillion-dollar prescription pharmaceutical pie". The article can certainly be caught by that, but does that make it part of the conspiracy theory ? I suggest much more careful cultural reflection and study about the term 'conspiracy theory' by editors, if they want to consider themselves objective. And that really is it from me on this, bothering everyone's afternoon or morning - happy rest of the day to all !
86.183.33.167 ( talk) 15:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
This article is absolutely disgusting. If you google "Big Pharma", this is the first result that comes up. It's as if all use of "Big Pharma" is somehow suggestive of a conspiracy regarding, of course, a very noble and honorable industry. Conspiracy theories regarding the pharmaceutical industry would be a more appropriate title. The term "Big Pharma conspiracy theory" does NOT appear in all but one of the sources cited and is definitely not WP:COMMONNAME. Most people would associate Pharmaceutical marketing or Pharmaceutical lobby when they hear "Big Pharma" but none of those articles uses the term in their titles. Halskw ( talk) 04:23, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Aherrera8827.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 18:00, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
The problem I see with this is that the references appear to be rather one-sided on the issue, and particularly ignore the more recent well-documented scandals in the pharmaceutical industry which posit the potential question of whether there is widespread corruption involved in the government regulating bodies, such as the FDA. See, e.g. the anti-depressant "black box" scandal, et al. Rather the article to me seems to imply that there haven't been significant large-scale scandals in the industry, which media coverage refutes. My reason for not simply doing a re-write or addition is because the research would take a large amount of time. 98.178.191.34 ( talk) 16:59, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
So let me just ask you, as human beings that we are: do you think Purdue Pharma was dissolved because somebody conspired against this honest, open and well-intentioned organization? Do you think that it is fine to put an entire nation on addictive opioids and simply get away with it, because this is what Big Pharma is about. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/01/health/purdue-sacklers-opioids-settlement.html
Do you think that it is okay that the revolving door policy exists, whereby former employees of FDA get hired as directors of companies and vice versa, as is the case with the infamous former FDA chief and now the director of Pfizer, Albert Bourla? These people belong in prison, and should not be responsible for anything related to healthcare. Is it okay for Pfizer to have profited more on vaccines alone than in the entire cycle of 2020?
I am only scratching the surface in my comment, and as long as Wikipedia keeps this shameful page, this article is the evidence of the lack of freedom of speech and full control of big pharma over any published information online. — Preceding unsigned comment added by S0793217 ( talk • contribs) 01:32, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
The only solid source I can see in this article is the first article from Robert Blaskiewicz, who btw teaches English (not science), and the article definitely fails WP:MEDRS. The only other sources that use the general term "Big Pharma conspiracy theory" are from the "Center for Inquiry", a skeptical not for profit that doesn't publish its funding!?! and the articles by Steven Novella, for which he's the head of the New England Skeptical Society (also unpublished funding), and thus is borderline self published.
Every other source in this article just refers to individual medical conspiracy theories, and this article tries to the them into "big pharma conspiracy theory" without the original author doing so. This is certainly original research.
I should mention that Robert Blaskiewicz also part of the Center for Inquiry. I have nothing against the skeptical movement, but this whole article comes from their movement.
I get that medical conspiracy theories are legitimately dangerous. At the same time, this article seems to paint any criticism of massive for-profit medical companies as a conspiracy theory, as other editors on the talk page here have mentioned. Stix1776 ( talk) 08:00, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
Conspiracy theories do not stop at accusing “big pharma” of misconduct,; [2] is rather clearly on topic just from the title. "Big pharma" is in use by the conspiracists themselves, but also outside of that simply to refer to the pharmaceutic industry; (search PubMed for "big pharma"). And of course, since it is a conspiracy theory, there's a good argument that we should call a spade a spade. RandomCanadian ( talk / contribs) 04:25, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
sources 2-5 were think tanks and/or blogs"← Ben Goldacre's book is not a blog, and he's not a thinktank either. [3]. And although Science-Based Medicine is nominally a blog, it is also of course a golden source for woo like this topic, as the community have repeatedly had to assert in the face of its WP:PROFRINGE haters. WP:PARITY comes into play here too, so skeptical sources are likely to be great for the knowledge we want. Alexbrn ( talk) 05:32, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
Is said that Medical Writing was "solid", but that sources 2-5 were think tanks and/or blogs.The third source is a book by an acknowledged expert. Steven Novella is an acknowledged expert (a neurologist) as well as an acknowledged subject-matter (medical conspiracy theories) expert. The argument only holds water with respect to the Radford source. Even then, as I already pointed out: this argument has been rejected multiple times by this community, mostly because it completely ignores the fact that that the CfI has consistently proven itself to be a highly reliable source for content like this. Repeating poor arguments does not make them better. Happy ( Slap me) 12:54, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
I agree that the only substantial source for the conspiracy theory is Blaskiewicz' essay. Also, the article implies that critics of pharmaceutical companies are conspiracy theorists. So for example this article says, "A common claim among proponents of the conspiracy theory is that pharmaceutical companies suppress negative research about their drugs by financially pressuring researchers and journals." The implication is that people who accuse the industry of pressuring researchers are conspiracy theorists. Blaskiewicz says that all big pharma conspiracy theorists envision the industry as "improbably powerful, competent, and craven."
We've all read about this lately. Covid was invented in order to kill off white people. Covid vaccines give you covid or implant microchips. But that's not the same sort of claim as that Moderna and Pfizer do not want to give up their patents because they are sources of revenue.
The statement in the lead therefore is false: "In each case the conspiracy theorists have blamed pharmaceutical companies' search for profits." What distinguishes conspiratorial thinking is that they don't accept the obvious motive. Alex Jones for example did not claim that the Deepwater Horizon oil spill occurred because BP cut corners on safety in its "search for profits." Instead, it was to persuade people that global warming was real and to concentrate power in world government in order to kill off white people and replace them with non-whites who could be more easily controlled.
TFD ( talk) 01:06, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
Conspiracy theories do not stop at accusing “big pharma” of misconduct, but they also claim that governmental institutions, scientific associations, and academia are involved. Assertions often include the notion that powerful industries put pressure on scientists in academia to cover up “the truth”. “Some conspiracy believers view the entire scientific enterprise as a conspiracy in itself. They view scientists as being corrupted by big pharma and as being part of the conspiracy”, Rutjens said.); and [5] (which, although it is a study, clearly shows this "Big Pharma conspiracy theory" phrase to be something that exists and has been studied by academics). "Big pharma conspiracy" or "pharmaceutical companies conspiracy" also yields plenty of other useful results; ex. [6]; [7]; [8] (
Seen from another perspective, the viral video of Dr Judy Mikovits blaming the coronavirus outbreak on a conspiracy led by big pharma, Bill Gates and the World Health Organization is the work of a discredited crank. But scientists fear that does not make her claims any less dangerous because, in an age of conspiracy theories, those about medicine have unusual potency.; [9]; [10]; [11]; also "medical conspiracy theories" ( [12]); [13]; [14]. I mean, there's plenty of content out there. Insisting that this is a concept which doesn't exist is at best tendentious and at worst deliberately economical with the truth. RandomCanadian ( talk / contribs) 01:48, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
IOW you think that the fact the term "Big Pharma conspiracy theories" has been used in reliable sources, despite the lack of any information about them other than that they are conspiracy theories about Big Pharma, establishes notability. TFD ( talk) 00:16, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
A range of authors have shown these claims to be false, though some of these authors nevertheless maintain that other criticisms of the pharmaceutical industry are legitimate.), well you're invited to WP:FIXIT, instead of inciting others to read your mind. You've obviously spent more time than me looking at this article, so if there are concrete issues you wish to have a discussion over, go ahead. Again, I agree that a distinction needs to be made between legitimate criticism and conspiracy theories - although this article should still focus primarily on the conspiracies, mostly because that's what readers would expect from such a title, and because Pharmaceutical_industry#Controversies exists and could probably be made into a full fledged article. Now stop chasing clouds and tell what exactly you think needs to be fixed. RandomCanadian ( talk / contribs) 01:09, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
"Or it may be that the topic has notability and it will force you to improve the article"← AfD is not for addressing any perceived WP:PROBLEM with the article. And taking an article to AfD when the nominator hasn't even determined whether it's notable or not reeks of bad faith. Alexbrn ( talk) 08:37, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
The Big Pharma conspiracy theory[15]. It then lists a bunch of examples of individual medical conspiracy theories, and writes that they are instances of Blaskiewicz's thesis. On Wikipedia this is called WP:SYNTH, a form of original research. Most egregious is the implication that pharmaceutical companies having acted
against the public goodis a conspiracy theory: see list of largest pharmaceutical settlements. I don't know what the right way forward for this article is. Endwise ( talk) 16:04, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
a rambling farrago of uninformed opinions, conspiracy theories and cheeky jabs at medical, pharmaceutical and governmental authorities ("they").Denying AIDS: Conspiracy Theories, Pseudoscience, and Human Tragedy is a pretty clear example of a book covering a specific conspiracy theory which other sources (the MIT review) also clearly identify as a "conspiracy theory about big phrama". Can't be much more direct than that. Combining the information from multiple reliable sources is not WP:SYNTH (nor is SYNTH the mere juxtaposition of such reliably sourced statements), it's the normal process of making a summary of secondary sources to write a proper tertiary source on the topic. RandomCanadian ( talk / contribs) 16:14, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
Specific variations of the conspiracy theory have included...and listing those examples. That is what I meant by WP:SYNTH. Endwise ( talk) 16:45, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
I said before I don't think an article on such conspiracy theories shouldn't exist, and I'm not looking to nominate this article for deletion. It is the content of the article I have an issue with. If there are other sources which identify this superstructure under which all other conspiracy theories about the pharmaceutical industry sit, we should write the article based on those, not based on a synthesis of examples. Or, probably an even better approach, is to rename this article to something like Conspiracy theories about the pharmaceutical industry
, and have this article be an overview of the different examples and the responses to those examples.
While I've got you here, for some additional motivation of why the wording of this article peeves me, here's an exercise: let's compare (relatively) mainstream left-wing rhetoric with what this article describes as a conspiracy theory:
Big Pharma knows that Medicare for All will make drugs more affordable. That’s why they pump so much money on Corporate Democrats. When politicians rely on Big Pharma money for re-election, they sabotage bills that will hurt their donors - even if it’s best for constituents[18] This article:
The Big Pharma conspiracy theory is a group of conspiracy theories that claim [...] pharmaceutical companies, especially large corporations, operate for sinister purposes and against the public good
Big Pharma money = opioid epidemic[19] This article:
The Big Pharma conspiracy theory is a group of conspiracy theories that claim [...] pharmaceutical companies, especially large corporations [...] cause and worsen a wide range of diseases for the only purpose of profitability.
Would you be happy describing AOC as a conspiracy theorist
on her article because of this?
Endwise (
talk)
pharma companies are a component in a giant secret cabal: this is not what this article says the "Big Pharma conspiracy theory" is. It says the "Big Pharma conspiracy theory" is claiming that pharma companies a) act against the public good, b) conceal effective treatments, or c) their profit motive worsens diseases. Endwise ( talk) 17:35, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
Conspiracy theories about the pharmaceutical industryand discuss an overview of the different examples, or should be deleted. Arguing for the position that conspiracy theories about the pharmaceutical industry are instantiations of a grander conspiracy theory called the "the Big Pharma conspiracy theory" (the belief that pharma companies act against the public good, conceal effective treatments, or have a profit motive which worsens diseases) doesn't seem to be borne out by sources. This article is an overview of Blaskiewicz's essay, backed up by a synthesis of examples of specific medical conspiracy theories. So if there is not a desire to create such an article on "Conspiracy theories about the pharmaceutical industry", I would support deletion. Endwise ( talk) 05:33, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
"Big pharma conspiracy" or "pharmaceutical companies conspiracy" also yields plenty of other useful results"; and find that comment, and stop arguing that there are "no sources". If you nominate this for deletion, it's clearly going to fall under WP:CSK no. 2d and I'm not going to hesitate half a second before closing it with just that rationale even if I'm involved (and then I'll promptly file a report somewhere for the obviously tendentious nature of this whole thing). as for your "making great contributions", Wikipedia is not compulsory and nobody is forced to obey your desires. If there is some concrete and specific proposal you wish to implement, go ahead. Otherwise stop making vague assertions and complaining about "obvious" problems which you can't be bothered to fix yourself. RandomCanadian ( talk / contribs) 13:33, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
I can find only one article (Blaskiewicz) with "Big Pharma conpsiracy" in the title and a self-published book called "The Big Pharma Conspiracy." While the terms conspiracy theory and "Big Pharma" appear in passing, sometimes juxtaposed, in a number of sources, there is no substantial body of literature about the topic. AS GNG says, "Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention." Some of the hits return results such as "Opioid Manufacturer Purdue Pharma Pleads Guilty to Fraud and Kickback Conspiracies" (DOJ November 24, 2020). Can you point to any other books or articles about the topic? TFD ( talk) 14:05, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
"I can find only one article (Blaskiewicz) with "Big Pharma conpsiracy" in the title ..."← can't have been much of a search when the first three refs of this very Wikipedia article have that text in it. Maybe your spelling difficulties are hampering you? Alexbrn ( talk) 14:16, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
Big Pharma Conspiracies Pharmaceutical companies are, of course, in business for profit and there is plenty of history of Big Pharma engaging in exploitation and questionable practices. It is these historical realities that fuel the Big Pharma conspiracy, extending well beyond the drug companies themselves. Most Big Pharma-conspiracies tie together the US government, philanthropists, and anyone who tries to get antiretroviral treatments to people living with HIV/AIDS[...] Of course, the Big Pharma conspiracy is much broader than just HIV/ AIDS. Journalist David Crowe, for example, has written extensively on the corruption of Big Pharma in promoting cancer treatment, claiming that cancer diagnostic tests and treatments, just like AIDS treatments, are poison for profit. [...] Crowe says that neither mammograms nor prostate screening have been proven to reduce cancer mortality in a large population. His argument is that the medical care industry promotes screening and treatments based on ‘‘the power and prestige of the medical establishment,’’ overlooking alternative and natural treatments which are safe and effective. How is it possible that safer and effective treatments are not the scientific standard for AIDS and cancer treatment? Crowe says the answer is simple. There is widespread corruption in the peer review system that suppresses natural remedies in order to protect the interests of the pharmaceutical industry, the censorship conspiracy.Tewdar 19:17, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
if you could provide any sources to establish notability of the topic.Those have been provided; multiple times (and many are included in the article as well). You have neither provided any valid reason why they would not count (the requirements of WP:SIGCOV are rather clear, and despite your repeated assertions that "a full three page article" or "a few dedicated pages in a larger book" are not enough, or your claims that you are familiar with it,
Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, but it does not need to be the main topic of the source material.is rather unambiguous enough, and very much at odds with the position you seem to be defending), nor do you seem to have attempted to take a look at the provided sources yourself to use them to improve the article (which, given your insistence on others improving the article, while refusing to do so yourself, or even to state what exactly you think needs to be fixed, is becoming rather disruptive the more it goes on). Either come up with some actual meat to beef up your arguments, or accept that the horse has bolted and find some other clouds to chase. RandomCanadian ( talk / contribs) 03:14, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
The fact that AIDS denialists have been ostracised from mainstream scientific institutions or have difficulties obtaining funding is attributed to the actions of the ‘Big Pharma’ eager to conceal its sinister motivations, stifle dissenting voices and maintain the so-called AIDS industry, the ‘global, multibillion-dollar juggernaut of diagnostics, drugs, and activist organizations’and
Likewise, resistance to flu or MMR vaccination is often sustained by the view of ‘Big Pharma’ and (mainly Western) governments as a menacing force conspiring against ordinary people.Tewdar 09:39, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
True "conspiracy theories" are extremely rare and have the reputation of usually being flaky thus making the term a pejorative. The far more common use of the term is to mislabel any type of an allegation of wrongdoing as a "conspiracy theory" in order to deprecate the allegation or the person making it. Or, if a type of allegation is 99% simply an allegation or something negative someone wishes to spotlight, and 1% has some conspiracy or theory aspect, a common attack maneuver is to exaggerate the 1% and deprecate the 99% by covering the whole thing as a "conspiracy theory" or only covering the 1% "conspiracy theory" aspect of it. This article is full of problems like that, with related wiki-violations. You best bet would be to re-title the article eliminating "conspiracy theory" so that it encompasses the whole 100% / current content of the article. Or move the 99% out to a new article to provide real coverage of it's main current content elsewhere and leave this article title as a stub covering the remaining 1% that is actually conspiracy theories. North8000 ( talk) 14:08, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
Alexbrn:There was no deliberate large content deletion. I removed a couple of books that I couldnt see were about conspiracies. And I sorted content into sections. Please check it again, and if you have problems with any specific content, please edit that section, dont just nuke everything... I am also more than happy to discuss anything here, instead of diving into an edit war... All the best / Teaparty ( talk) 12:55, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
@ Teaparty: It would be helpful if you did multiple smaller edits, that way it is easier for others to leave your good edits and revert your controversial ones, as well as it making it easier for others to follow what you are doing. I recommend you make deletions separately to additions, justifying each deletion, and re-organizations separately as well. It looks to me like some of your changes are helpful and properly sourced, but it was hard to follow in such a huge change. Thanks!! --- Avatar317 (talk) 20:58, 7 May 2022 (UTC)