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This talk page discussion had gotten very confusing (repetitive and messy) so I archived almost all of it. Please see next section for discussion of current version (14:31, 13 June 2006). --- CH 22:07, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I changed the flag from {{totallydisputed}} to {{NPOV}} since as far as I can see, no-one is claiming that there are any factual inaccuracies in the article. The dispute seems to concern whether or not the article is slanted against Haisch. --- CH 21:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I again request User:Haisch to take a few days off from discussing this article as per WP:DR. When he comes back here, I feel he should raise any additional concerns in this talk page and let me (or some other hopefully neutral WP editor) make any needed changes in the article itself.
I suggest that any new concerns go in this section because this talk page has become rather confusing to read. TIA --- CH 21:33, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
To mention one issue: I requested Haisch for a bit of standard biographical information (birthdate, birthplace) as per comparable wikibios. Not absolutely neccessary, I suppose, but given the detail on other things, it seems like a good idea. I think it would be best if he replies here after his break and lets me or Paul add this information in our own words.--- CH 21:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Copied from the just archived talk page:
As I said on the archived talk page I'm particulary concerned with the second item. Paul August ☎ 22:20, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes I am looking at the current version. Do you see some discrepancy between what I wrote above and the version we are talking about? In particular what I wrote above agrees with what you gave for the first sentence. Perhaps you are misreading what I wrote?
Paul August ☎ 23:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm glad to see that we are converging, but I do request that the "neutrality disputed" flag remain for the time being. Here are some remaining issues working my way down through the article, but overall my anxiety level is considerably reduced at this point.
(1) You keep emphasizing the spacecraft propulsion claims, instead of the physics. In our refereed physics papers we talk about a "quantum vacuum inertia hypothesis" based on stochastic electrodynamics analysis. That is our substantive scientific proposal. The spacecraft propulsion is popular article speculation. In fairness you should therefore reference our "quantum vacuum inertia hypothesis" instead of "zero-point-field inertia resonance."
(2) If you do keep a reference to our propulsion speculation, please be fair to report that I always indicate that even if the physics is correct an application to propulsion could be decades or centuries away... and indeed perhaps never.
(3) Change "Extreme Ultraviolet Physics Laboratory" to "Center for Extreme Ultraviolet Astrophysics."
(4) People usually assume, as you did, that I founded the Journal of Scientific Exploration. I did not. It was founded by Prof. Ronald Howard at Stanford University in 1987 who served as the first editor for a year and a half before I took over. Since it is widely assumed that I founded the Journal it is an important piece of information for this article that I did not.
(5) Why have you left the derogatory "Fringe" in the section "Fringe Publications"? "Non-mainstream" would serve better. Please respect NPOV.
(6) It is editorializing to say: "In particular, it sells videotapes of lectures on such topics as faith healing, Gaia, and life after death." I am not responsible for what the Institute of Noetic Sciences sells. This is really an NPOV violation.
(7) My postdocs at CIPA actually spent more time on string and brane theory and general relativity than on stochastic electrodynamics. This can be verified by looking at the CIPA-funded papers published by Halyo, Shmakova and Tung. Only Hushwater spent much time on SED. So a fair representation is not "stochastic electrodynamics and other topics" but rather "string theory, brane theory, general relativity and stochastic electrodynamcs" or whatever order you choose.
(8) They were not "students." Their appointment terms said "fellows." All had Ph. D.s (and came to CIPA from prestigious departments: Stanford Physics, SLAC, U. Chicago, Princeton, U, Maryand.
(9) Under "Digital Universe" I strongly suggest that you remove "Some observers have questioned whether the involvement of Joe Firmage and Haisch might compromise this goal." First of alll, who are the observers? and even so, if Wikipedia is seen as trashing a competitor, that will backfire on you eventually
(10) In references you should list the Phys. Rev. 1994 paper by Haisch, Rueda and Puthoff that started all this.
(11) You again have "fringe" in Categories.
Haisch 19:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Paul, does the current version say that Haisch is a fringe physicist? Unless I overlooked something, it does not. The category is needed because as I take it even Haisch agrees, his name is frequently invoked in some cranky contexts. While doing something else I came across [pesn.com/2005/12/29/9600212_Zero_Point_Energy_Haisch_and_Puthoff Venturing to the Zero Point] from a website which tends toward the credulous, which may or may not be an example (too busy to read it in detail right now), but anyone who Googles for websites mentioning Haisch, Puthoff, Bearden, Naudin, etc., will soon see what I mean. Hope this allays your concern.--- CH 20:25, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Here are my replies to the issues numbered according to your list.
(1) I assume that the "neutrality disputed"" flag can remain indefinitely if necessary, correct?
(3) This is a rare example of where a transliteration gives an erroneous impression. Yes, "extraterrestrische Physik" translates as "extraterrestrial physics" but really is the same field of research as what we call "Space Physics" in the U.S. which does not carry any "alien" implication as "extraterrestrial" now does in the U.S. The institute is after all leading German research organization within the family of Max-Planck-Institutes.
(4) I had nothing to do with founding of the Society for Scientific Exploration. The fouding committee was composed entirely, I believe, of university professors and I joined a couple of years later.
(7) My postdocs did research in string theory, brane theory, general relativity and stochastic electrodynamcs. That is a fact and you should therefore list those topics. "Gravitation physics" could be misinterpreted. Do not censor this list, please.
(10) The paper is: Inertia as a zero-point-field Lorentz force, B. Haisch, A. Rueda & H.E. Puthoff, Physical Review A, Vol. 49, No. 2, pp. 678-694 (1994).
Now on my list you did not address:
(1) You keep emphasizing the spacecraft propulsion claims, instead of the physics. In our refereed physics papers we talk about a "quantum vacuum inertia hypothesis" based on stochastic electrodynamics analysis. That is our substantive scientific proposal. The spacecraft propulsion is popular article speculation. In fairness you should therefore reference our "quantum vacuum inertia hypothesis" instead of "zero-point-field inertia resonance."
(2) If you do keep a reference to our propulsion speculation, please be fair to report that I always indicate that even if the physics is correct an application to propulsion could be decades or centuries away... and indeed perhaps never.
There is of course athe broader issue that you have picked only the controversial parts of my career for this article, which raises NPOV issues as well.
I would certainly like to hear Paul's views on this.
Haisch 23:59, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
The attitude displayed in Christine Hillman's latest posting is rather appalling. As a self-appointed "editor" she decides on her own "authority" to summarize my career. Her first crack at it is full of errors and NPOV violations. When I discover this I am told that by "your rules" I am supposed to keep my hands off this article about me. My only "right" is to complain on a separate page, that most readers never visit. Never mind whether or not I wish to be in the Wikipedia (I don't) or whether this will damage my reputation. I wage an uphill battle to get the facts straight with partial success, but while the process is still underway Hillman decides she has grown weary of my ingratitude and I should shut up and be thankful for her efforts. I truly now see the dark side of Wikipedia, and I expect that the Wikipedia experiment will experience a train wreck eventually over this kind of authoritarian, and probably libelous, behaviour.
But returning to your own very reasonable question. The world is full of gravitation theories that are totally flakey. There is absolutely no good reason not to list the topics which were "string and brane theory, general relativity and stochastic electrodynamics." That's actually what went on there. Haisch 00:21, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
My goodness Mr. KSmrq, you certainly seem to be intoxicated by the power of the faceless, nameless proletariat. You have done an excellent job of articulating the danger of mob rule, though I don't think that was your intent. Haisch 06:18, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Thank goodness I finally have a couple of editors involved, you and Paul August, who are more neutral than Hillman. Here are three papers worth citing that relate to my solar-stellar astrophysics work.
DISAPPEARANCE OF CORONAL X-RAY EMISSION IN STARS WITH COOL DENSE WINDS, B. Haisch, J.H.M.M. Schmitt and A.C. Fabian, Nature, 360, 239 (1992).
SOLAR-LIKE M-CLASS X-RAY FLARES ON PROXIMA CENTAURI OBSERVED BY THE ASCA SATELLITE, B. Haisch, A. Antunes, and J.H.M.M. Schmitt, Science, 268, 1327, (1995).
FLARES ON THE SUN AND OTHER STARS, B. Haisch, K.T. Strong and M. Rodono, Annual Reviews Astron. & Astrophys., Vol. 29., 275, (1991).
My main research from the mid 1970s until the late 1990s was high energy astrophysics, and specifically the ultraviolet and X-ray emissions from coronae and flares on the Sun and other late-type stars. I co-chaired two major International Astronomical Union conferences on these topics: Solar and Stellar Flares at Stanford University in 1988; and Astrophysics in the Extreme Ultraviolet at the University of California, Berkeley in 1995. Haisch 18:32, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the Category:pseudophysics (twice) from the article, since I've heard no convincing argument why it is an appropriate category for this article. Could those who think otherwise please give an explanation, together with sources, why this category applies here? Thanks. Paul August ☎ 00:15, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
So, how about adding a few of the things above that actually reference my long mainstream astrophysics research? Haisch 05:21, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Our published scientific papers are about a "quantum vacuum inertia hypothesis" which would be an alternative to the Higgs explanation for mass. That terminology, "quantum vacuum inertia hypothesis," is in fact in the title of our last paper. The concept of modifying inertia for propulsion is purely a popular article type of speculation. So why is our work on inertia couched in terms of propulsion instead of in terms of what it is on the basis of our refereed papers: a proposal for a possible alternative to the Higgs? Why are you ignoring the terminology we actually use? Choosing the former for discussion in place of the latter merely serves to sensationalize, which is why I still claim that this is not yet neutral. Haisch 18:17, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
I created the original version of this article and had been monitoring it, but I am leaving the WP and am now abandoning this article to its fate.
Just wanted to provide notice that I am only responsible (in part) for the last version I edited; see User:Hillman/Archive.
I emphatically do not vouch for anything you might see in more recent versions, and given an obvious conflict of interest on the part of Haisch ( talk · contribs), I have reason to believe that POV-pushing will be a particular problem with this article for the foreseeable future.
Good luck in your search for information, regardless!--- CH 22:31, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
Looks like contrary to my fears, this article hasn't changed much since I left the wail of dismay in the preceding section (one of many similar messages--- possibly not my wisest comments on record!). One thing which wasn't clear to me from the L. A. Times piece was whether Haisch is still unhappy with his bio, which actually looks quite reasonable to me as I write. In any case, I share his frustration with the fact that the hard work put into this article by several people can be undone in an instant by any anon. Be this as it may, curious readers can see User:Hillman/Media_commentary_on_Wikipedia for my running compilation of criticism of Wikipedia in the mainstream media. I think many of these critics make some telling points and I'd like to see the Wikipedia community acknowledge this. --- CH 00:37, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Just a quick reminder that we have a living person policy. I strongly encourage folks to adhere to it! - Ta bu shi da yu 22:27, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Since there has been increased interest in this article of late, I thought it might be useful to copy here, three sections from my talk page which concern this article (much of which should probably have taken place here in the first place). They provide some more background into how this article was written. Paul August ☎ 21:57, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
(Start of copied text)
I am ready to present justifications for each of those changes, but sincerely hope you and Hillman might simply accept them as reasonable so that I don't need to waste more hours on this. There is one additional change that I think is fair: to substitute "non-mainstream" for the pejorative, value laden term "fringe."
Otherwise I think we have come to an entry that is accurate and fair. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Haisch ( talk • contribs) 16:47, June 11, 2006
I would greatly appreciate your continued involvement in getting this article to be factual and unbiased. Christine keeps letting her bias show through and does not even see it (see the latest on the Bernard Haisch article talk page). Haisch 16:33, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
How do we do this? Would you mind terribly making an updated list of the differences so that we have a current point of reference. I feel really lost and overwhelmed by this discussion scattered across many pages. Actually, Paul, I really do think the kind and ethical thing would be to work backwards from my version. It is my reputation that has been attacked and here I am fighting an uphill battle. I am really beginning to see the dark side of Wikipedia. Please do consider re-reverting to mine to work down from that... please. Haisch 17:15, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Again, thanks for your intervention. But what gives Christine Hillman the right to set the terms? You have as much right as she does. And what about my rights? Now that I see this process up close, I can begin to appreciate those who were tainted as "commies" by McCarthy. That's how I see her fixation on the obviously biased term "fringe." Have you seen "Good Night and Good Luck?" Haisch 17:48, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I will await your updated list of differences on the talk page of the article, and then give my reasons for each one. Thanks for your efforts. It is genuinely appreciated. Haisch 18:59, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Do you have any objection to my putting up a "disputed notice" on the article page until these issues are resolved? 69.107.150.126 20:30, 12 June 2006 (UTC) Thought I was logged in but I wasn't. Haisch 20:32, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi, Paul, I don't think anyone can discuss anything with Haisch until he calms down and agrees to play by our rules WP:CIV- WP:AGF. I think I have bent over backwards to be helpful to him as a newbie but his childish insults are beginning to grow tiresome. Please note that I have urged him several times to review our policies for talk page behavior.
I made a good regarding the version of Bernard Haisch I cited in my previous message. This would be too confusing to try to explain, so let's start again.
I have reverted to my most recent version and am willing to discuss line by line, but only after Haisch has taken a few days to calm down. I don't think the differences between my version and his are really that huge, but I resist the idea that he should be given license to rewrite his own wikibiography in his own words, since I think this compromises WP:NPOV.
In the service of our readers, I think it is important that our articles should strive to be readable as well as fair and factually accurate, and that is why I think it is best that I implement any changes the WP community feels are neccessary in Bernard Haisch: comparing his versions and mine I think it is obvious that I am the better writer, at least on this subject, and since I wrote the original version I also can more easily see where to fit in new material in a way which respects the flow of ideas.
Just to be clear: do you disagree with the principle that the subject of a wikibiography should be discouraged from himself writing or rewriting his own wikibiography? Please note that everyone appears to agree that the subject can contribute on the talk page to express concerns, suggest factual corrections, or describe changes he desires. However, as I say, I think it is best if more neutral editors make any changes to the article itself. --- CH 18:18, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Paul, please help. Hillman has taken down the Disputation banner. That should certainly be my right to display. This is inappropriate behaviour on Hillman's part. Haisch 19:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I have responed to the latest version. I think we are converging at last. Thanks. Haisch 19:25, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Just to let you know that I have again replied. Haisch 00:01, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Once again, thank you for your intervention.
Could you clarify the issue regarding Hillman's proper name. I believe I am using her correct name.
All necessary biographical information on me is available at CV. With regard to your suggestion that "as much as you think Chris' behaviour has been inappropriate, I think saying so is probably unhelpful" that is part of the problem. No one should be expected to sit back and be passive when one's carrer is being inappropriately misconstrued. I have tried and will continue to be civil, and indeed appreciative for assistance from you. But I maintain that Hillman has shown enough bias to warrant ceasing further involvement with my entry. But once again, thank you. Haisch 18:55, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
By the way, have a look at the Discussion page of the Journal of Scientific Exploration by others than me and you will see further evidence of NPOV violation by Hillman. Haisch 19:00, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I think my good friend Larry Sanger created a Frankenstein when he set up this anonymous editing. You see, my career is totally out in the open and it would be really nice if Wikipedians were not allowed to be so shadowy (note that I did not say shady, a different connotation). I would prefer to deal with people whose identity I actually know, as all of you know mine. There is an unfair asymmetry here. As for the Hillman nomenclature, Chris apparently made the same transition one of my best friends made, but my friend did everything in the open and managed to continue a highly successful career in astrophysics in her new persona, which I greatly admired. There was no attempt to become "this mysterious entity." Haisch 05:52, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
(End of copied text. — Paul August ☎ 21:57, 31 July 2006 (UTC) )
If you check out the DU blog http://www.dufoundation.org/blog/ and look for:
which, as mentioned above, refers to this article in the LA Times:
I came across the op-ed piece in the LA Times and I still think that there is a dash of value judgement here:
That to me is a sentence that is way too short. It immediately implies that he has a personal interest in and is a willing (impulsive) believer in quack topics. To the neutral reader who is reasonable, yet time-constrained, such a sentence should be enough to turn her/him off since it conveniently appears at the top without qualification. It fails to mention that he advocates the rigorous use of the scientific method in studying phenomena outside the scope of science.
Even a recently declassified Ministry of Defence document judges that UFOs are real, offering up a conservative estimate that they are a natural phenomenon worthy of scientific study, and potentially dangerous to aviation. So even if UFOs are not of extra-terrestrial origin, there is clearly a need to study them scientifically. In light of this, Haisch in my view is simply being a good scientist---as he clearly is. But you have to look below the "turn me off" phrase to get to the meat of it.
The phrase "in internet culture" is also deceiving as it implies that his "unorthodox work" is somehow disseminated or born of that incarnation of the internet where "you shouldn't believe what you read". Or that only "people on the internet pay attention to that stuff".
Finally, what is this business with the "bizarre saga with Joe Firmage"? How is it related to Bernard Haisch's biography? It seems more like tabloid journalism than an encyclopedia entry...especially since Haisch's comments in that article are more level-headed than Firmage's outbursts. Granted, it is entertaining---however it feels more like a smear campaign of what are effectively the leaders of a Wikipedia competitor.
Trelayne 09:13, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Was the Calphysics institute mainly funded by Joe Firmage? Considering [2], the timing seems about right. Iin [3] I read that Firmage served as "chairman" of the institute, and in [4] he claims that the Calphysics institute is the "theoretical studies division" of his Motion Sciences Organization. AxelBoldt 16:20, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
This article has been editted by the subject in clear conflict with WP:AUTO. It is also clear that the article is filled with meaningless accolades and legitimizing remarks in an attempt to thwart WP:NPOV. Many of the statements are not backed up by sources listed and lack WP:V (ie what the subject is best known for). If you want to see how to treat controversial fringe scientists such as this, look to Eric Lerner, currently undergoing a major reworking. This kind of posturing is WP:NOT for Wikipedia. -- ScienceApologist 21:53, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
citation needed's
you added were supported with evidence further down in the article. For instance, does anyone dispute that he is an astrophysicist, that he is involved in ManyOne, or that he wrote a book attempting to reconcile scientific belief with religion?
AxelBoldt 18:42, 8 October 2006 (UTC)User:Sammyterry is still removing sourced material, and I don't want to exceed 3rr. I reported it here and here, and given the subject of the article edits himself here, also noted it here. Please pay extra close attention on this BLP article. · XP · 21:32, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Footnotes for an explanation of how to generate footnotes using the <ref(erences/)> tags Nhl4hamilton ( talk) 07:58, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
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This talk page discussion had gotten very confusing (repetitive and messy) so I archived almost all of it. Please see next section for discussion of current version (14:31, 13 June 2006). --- CH 22:07, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I changed the flag from {{totallydisputed}} to {{NPOV}} since as far as I can see, no-one is claiming that there are any factual inaccuracies in the article. The dispute seems to concern whether or not the article is slanted against Haisch. --- CH 21:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I again request User:Haisch to take a few days off from discussing this article as per WP:DR. When he comes back here, I feel he should raise any additional concerns in this talk page and let me (or some other hopefully neutral WP editor) make any needed changes in the article itself.
I suggest that any new concerns go in this section because this talk page has become rather confusing to read. TIA --- CH 21:33, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
To mention one issue: I requested Haisch for a bit of standard biographical information (birthdate, birthplace) as per comparable wikibios. Not absolutely neccessary, I suppose, but given the detail on other things, it seems like a good idea. I think it would be best if he replies here after his break and lets me or Paul add this information in our own words.--- CH 21:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Copied from the just archived talk page:
As I said on the archived talk page I'm particulary concerned with the second item. Paul August ☎ 22:20, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes I am looking at the current version. Do you see some discrepancy between what I wrote above and the version we are talking about? In particular what I wrote above agrees with what you gave for the first sentence. Perhaps you are misreading what I wrote?
Paul August ☎ 23:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm glad to see that we are converging, but I do request that the "neutrality disputed" flag remain for the time being. Here are some remaining issues working my way down through the article, but overall my anxiety level is considerably reduced at this point.
(1) You keep emphasizing the spacecraft propulsion claims, instead of the physics. In our refereed physics papers we talk about a "quantum vacuum inertia hypothesis" based on stochastic electrodynamics analysis. That is our substantive scientific proposal. The spacecraft propulsion is popular article speculation. In fairness you should therefore reference our "quantum vacuum inertia hypothesis" instead of "zero-point-field inertia resonance."
(2) If you do keep a reference to our propulsion speculation, please be fair to report that I always indicate that even if the physics is correct an application to propulsion could be decades or centuries away... and indeed perhaps never.
(3) Change "Extreme Ultraviolet Physics Laboratory" to "Center for Extreme Ultraviolet Astrophysics."
(4) People usually assume, as you did, that I founded the Journal of Scientific Exploration. I did not. It was founded by Prof. Ronald Howard at Stanford University in 1987 who served as the first editor for a year and a half before I took over. Since it is widely assumed that I founded the Journal it is an important piece of information for this article that I did not.
(5) Why have you left the derogatory "Fringe" in the section "Fringe Publications"? "Non-mainstream" would serve better. Please respect NPOV.
(6) It is editorializing to say: "In particular, it sells videotapes of lectures on such topics as faith healing, Gaia, and life after death." I am not responsible for what the Institute of Noetic Sciences sells. This is really an NPOV violation.
(7) My postdocs at CIPA actually spent more time on string and brane theory and general relativity than on stochastic electrodynamics. This can be verified by looking at the CIPA-funded papers published by Halyo, Shmakova and Tung. Only Hushwater spent much time on SED. So a fair representation is not "stochastic electrodynamics and other topics" but rather "string theory, brane theory, general relativity and stochastic electrodynamcs" or whatever order you choose.
(8) They were not "students." Their appointment terms said "fellows." All had Ph. D.s (and came to CIPA from prestigious departments: Stanford Physics, SLAC, U. Chicago, Princeton, U, Maryand.
(9) Under "Digital Universe" I strongly suggest that you remove "Some observers have questioned whether the involvement of Joe Firmage and Haisch might compromise this goal." First of alll, who are the observers? and even so, if Wikipedia is seen as trashing a competitor, that will backfire on you eventually
(10) In references you should list the Phys. Rev. 1994 paper by Haisch, Rueda and Puthoff that started all this.
(11) You again have "fringe" in Categories.
Haisch 19:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Paul, does the current version say that Haisch is a fringe physicist? Unless I overlooked something, it does not. The category is needed because as I take it even Haisch agrees, his name is frequently invoked in some cranky contexts. While doing something else I came across [pesn.com/2005/12/29/9600212_Zero_Point_Energy_Haisch_and_Puthoff Venturing to the Zero Point] from a website which tends toward the credulous, which may or may not be an example (too busy to read it in detail right now), but anyone who Googles for websites mentioning Haisch, Puthoff, Bearden, Naudin, etc., will soon see what I mean. Hope this allays your concern.--- CH 20:25, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Here are my replies to the issues numbered according to your list.
(1) I assume that the "neutrality disputed"" flag can remain indefinitely if necessary, correct?
(3) This is a rare example of where a transliteration gives an erroneous impression. Yes, "extraterrestrische Physik" translates as "extraterrestrial physics" but really is the same field of research as what we call "Space Physics" in the U.S. which does not carry any "alien" implication as "extraterrestrial" now does in the U.S. The institute is after all leading German research organization within the family of Max-Planck-Institutes.
(4) I had nothing to do with founding of the Society for Scientific Exploration. The fouding committee was composed entirely, I believe, of university professors and I joined a couple of years later.
(7) My postdocs did research in string theory, brane theory, general relativity and stochastic electrodynamcs. That is a fact and you should therefore list those topics. "Gravitation physics" could be misinterpreted. Do not censor this list, please.
(10) The paper is: Inertia as a zero-point-field Lorentz force, B. Haisch, A. Rueda & H.E. Puthoff, Physical Review A, Vol. 49, No. 2, pp. 678-694 (1994).
Now on my list you did not address:
(1) You keep emphasizing the spacecraft propulsion claims, instead of the physics. In our refereed physics papers we talk about a "quantum vacuum inertia hypothesis" based on stochastic electrodynamics analysis. That is our substantive scientific proposal. The spacecraft propulsion is popular article speculation. In fairness you should therefore reference our "quantum vacuum inertia hypothesis" instead of "zero-point-field inertia resonance."
(2) If you do keep a reference to our propulsion speculation, please be fair to report that I always indicate that even if the physics is correct an application to propulsion could be decades or centuries away... and indeed perhaps never.
There is of course athe broader issue that you have picked only the controversial parts of my career for this article, which raises NPOV issues as well.
I would certainly like to hear Paul's views on this.
Haisch 23:59, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
The attitude displayed in Christine Hillman's latest posting is rather appalling. As a self-appointed "editor" she decides on her own "authority" to summarize my career. Her first crack at it is full of errors and NPOV violations. When I discover this I am told that by "your rules" I am supposed to keep my hands off this article about me. My only "right" is to complain on a separate page, that most readers never visit. Never mind whether or not I wish to be in the Wikipedia (I don't) or whether this will damage my reputation. I wage an uphill battle to get the facts straight with partial success, but while the process is still underway Hillman decides she has grown weary of my ingratitude and I should shut up and be thankful for her efforts. I truly now see the dark side of Wikipedia, and I expect that the Wikipedia experiment will experience a train wreck eventually over this kind of authoritarian, and probably libelous, behaviour.
But returning to your own very reasonable question. The world is full of gravitation theories that are totally flakey. There is absolutely no good reason not to list the topics which were "string and brane theory, general relativity and stochastic electrodynamics." That's actually what went on there. Haisch 00:21, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
My goodness Mr. KSmrq, you certainly seem to be intoxicated by the power of the faceless, nameless proletariat. You have done an excellent job of articulating the danger of mob rule, though I don't think that was your intent. Haisch 06:18, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Thank goodness I finally have a couple of editors involved, you and Paul August, who are more neutral than Hillman. Here are three papers worth citing that relate to my solar-stellar astrophysics work.
DISAPPEARANCE OF CORONAL X-RAY EMISSION IN STARS WITH COOL DENSE WINDS, B. Haisch, J.H.M.M. Schmitt and A.C. Fabian, Nature, 360, 239 (1992).
SOLAR-LIKE M-CLASS X-RAY FLARES ON PROXIMA CENTAURI OBSERVED BY THE ASCA SATELLITE, B. Haisch, A. Antunes, and J.H.M.M. Schmitt, Science, 268, 1327, (1995).
FLARES ON THE SUN AND OTHER STARS, B. Haisch, K.T. Strong and M. Rodono, Annual Reviews Astron. & Astrophys., Vol. 29., 275, (1991).
My main research from the mid 1970s until the late 1990s was high energy astrophysics, and specifically the ultraviolet and X-ray emissions from coronae and flares on the Sun and other late-type stars. I co-chaired two major International Astronomical Union conferences on these topics: Solar and Stellar Flares at Stanford University in 1988; and Astrophysics in the Extreme Ultraviolet at the University of California, Berkeley in 1995. Haisch 18:32, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the Category:pseudophysics (twice) from the article, since I've heard no convincing argument why it is an appropriate category for this article. Could those who think otherwise please give an explanation, together with sources, why this category applies here? Thanks. Paul August ☎ 00:15, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
So, how about adding a few of the things above that actually reference my long mainstream astrophysics research? Haisch 05:21, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Our published scientific papers are about a "quantum vacuum inertia hypothesis" which would be an alternative to the Higgs explanation for mass. That terminology, "quantum vacuum inertia hypothesis," is in fact in the title of our last paper. The concept of modifying inertia for propulsion is purely a popular article type of speculation. So why is our work on inertia couched in terms of propulsion instead of in terms of what it is on the basis of our refereed papers: a proposal for a possible alternative to the Higgs? Why are you ignoring the terminology we actually use? Choosing the former for discussion in place of the latter merely serves to sensationalize, which is why I still claim that this is not yet neutral. Haisch 18:17, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
I created the original version of this article and had been monitoring it, but I am leaving the WP and am now abandoning this article to its fate.
Just wanted to provide notice that I am only responsible (in part) for the last version I edited; see User:Hillman/Archive.
I emphatically do not vouch for anything you might see in more recent versions, and given an obvious conflict of interest on the part of Haisch ( talk · contribs), I have reason to believe that POV-pushing will be a particular problem with this article for the foreseeable future.
Good luck in your search for information, regardless!--- CH 22:31, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
Looks like contrary to my fears, this article hasn't changed much since I left the wail of dismay in the preceding section (one of many similar messages--- possibly not my wisest comments on record!). One thing which wasn't clear to me from the L. A. Times piece was whether Haisch is still unhappy with his bio, which actually looks quite reasonable to me as I write. In any case, I share his frustration with the fact that the hard work put into this article by several people can be undone in an instant by any anon. Be this as it may, curious readers can see User:Hillman/Media_commentary_on_Wikipedia for my running compilation of criticism of Wikipedia in the mainstream media. I think many of these critics make some telling points and I'd like to see the Wikipedia community acknowledge this. --- CH 00:37, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Just a quick reminder that we have a living person policy. I strongly encourage folks to adhere to it! - Ta bu shi da yu 22:27, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Since there has been increased interest in this article of late, I thought it might be useful to copy here, three sections from my talk page which concern this article (much of which should probably have taken place here in the first place). They provide some more background into how this article was written. Paul August ☎ 21:57, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
(Start of copied text)
I am ready to present justifications for each of those changes, but sincerely hope you and Hillman might simply accept them as reasonable so that I don't need to waste more hours on this. There is one additional change that I think is fair: to substitute "non-mainstream" for the pejorative, value laden term "fringe."
Otherwise I think we have come to an entry that is accurate and fair. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Haisch ( talk • contribs) 16:47, June 11, 2006
I would greatly appreciate your continued involvement in getting this article to be factual and unbiased. Christine keeps letting her bias show through and does not even see it (see the latest on the Bernard Haisch article talk page). Haisch 16:33, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
How do we do this? Would you mind terribly making an updated list of the differences so that we have a current point of reference. I feel really lost and overwhelmed by this discussion scattered across many pages. Actually, Paul, I really do think the kind and ethical thing would be to work backwards from my version. It is my reputation that has been attacked and here I am fighting an uphill battle. I am really beginning to see the dark side of Wikipedia. Please do consider re-reverting to mine to work down from that... please. Haisch 17:15, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Again, thanks for your intervention. But what gives Christine Hillman the right to set the terms? You have as much right as she does. And what about my rights? Now that I see this process up close, I can begin to appreciate those who were tainted as "commies" by McCarthy. That's how I see her fixation on the obviously biased term "fringe." Have you seen "Good Night and Good Luck?" Haisch 17:48, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I will await your updated list of differences on the talk page of the article, and then give my reasons for each one. Thanks for your efforts. It is genuinely appreciated. Haisch 18:59, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Do you have any objection to my putting up a "disputed notice" on the article page until these issues are resolved? 69.107.150.126 20:30, 12 June 2006 (UTC) Thought I was logged in but I wasn't. Haisch 20:32, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi, Paul, I don't think anyone can discuss anything with Haisch until he calms down and agrees to play by our rules WP:CIV- WP:AGF. I think I have bent over backwards to be helpful to him as a newbie but his childish insults are beginning to grow tiresome. Please note that I have urged him several times to review our policies for talk page behavior.
I made a good regarding the version of Bernard Haisch I cited in my previous message. This would be too confusing to try to explain, so let's start again.
I have reverted to my most recent version and am willing to discuss line by line, but only after Haisch has taken a few days to calm down. I don't think the differences between my version and his are really that huge, but I resist the idea that he should be given license to rewrite his own wikibiography in his own words, since I think this compromises WP:NPOV.
In the service of our readers, I think it is important that our articles should strive to be readable as well as fair and factually accurate, and that is why I think it is best that I implement any changes the WP community feels are neccessary in Bernard Haisch: comparing his versions and mine I think it is obvious that I am the better writer, at least on this subject, and since I wrote the original version I also can more easily see where to fit in new material in a way which respects the flow of ideas.
Just to be clear: do you disagree with the principle that the subject of a wikibiography should be discouraged from himself writing or rewriting his own wikibiography? Please note that everyone appears to agree that the subject can contribute on the talk page to express concerns, suggest factual corrections, or describe changes he desires. However, as I say, I think it is best if more neutral editors make any changes to the article itself. --- CH 18:18, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Paul, please help. Hillman has taken down the Disputation banner. That should certainly be my right to display. This is inappropriate behaviour on Hillman's part. Haisch 19:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I have responed to the latest version. I think we are converging at last. Thanks. Haisch 19:25, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Just to let you know that I have again replied. Haisch 00:01, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Once again, thank you for your intervention.
Could you clarify the issue regarding Hillman's proper name. I believe I am using her correct name.
All necessary biographical information on me is available at CV. With regard to your suggestion that "as much as you think Chris' behaviour has been inappropriate, I think saying so is probably unhelpful" that is part of the problem. No one should be expected to sit back and be passive when one's carrer is being inappropriately misconstrued. I have tried and will continue to be civil, and indeed appreciative for assistance from you. But I maintain that Hillman has shown enough bias to warrant ceasing further involvement with my entry. But once again, thank you. Haisch 18:55, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
By the way, have a look at the Discussion page of the Journal of Scientific Exploration by others than me and you will see further evidence of NPOV violation by Hillman. Haisch 19:00, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I think my good friend Larry Sanger created a Frankenstein when he set up this anonymous editing. You see, my career is totally out in the open and it would be really nice if Wikipedians were not allowed to be so shadowy (note that I did not say shady, a different connotation). I would prefer to deal with people whose identity I actually know, as all of you know mine. There is an unfair asymmetry here. As for the Hillman nomenclature, Chris apparently made the same transition one of my best friends made, but my friend did everything in the open and managed to continue a highly successful career in astrophysics in her new persona, which I greatly admired. There was no attempt to become "this mysterious entity." Haisch 05:52, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
(End of copied text. — Paul August ☎ 21:57, 31 July 2006 (UTC) )
If you check out the DU blog http://www.dufoundation.org/blog/ and look for:
which, as mentioned above, refers to this article in the LA Times:
I came across the op-ed piece in the LA Times and I still think that there is a dash of value judgement here:
That to me is a sentence that is way too short. It immediately implies that he has a personal interest in and is a willing (impulsive) believer in quack topics. To the neutral reader who is reasonable, yet time-constrained, such a sentence should be enough to turn her/him off since it conveniently appears at the top without qualification. It fails to mention that he advocates the rigorous use of the scientific method in studying phenomena outside the scope of science.
Even a recently declassified Ministry of Defence document judges that UFOs are real, offering up a conservative estimate that they are a natural phenomenon worthy of scientific study, and potentially dangerous to aviation. So even if UFOs are not of extra-terrestrial origin, there is clearly a need to study them scientifically. In light of this, Haisch in my view is simply being a good scientist---as he clearly is. But you have to look below the "turn me off" phrase to get to the meat of it.
The phrase "in internet culture" is also deceiving as it implies that his "unorthodox work" is somehow disseminated or born of that incarnation of the internet where "you shouldn't believe what you read". Or that only "people on the internet pay attention to that stuff".
Finally, what is this business with the "bizarre saga with Joe Firmage"? How is it related to Bernard Haisch's biography? It seems more like tabloid journalism than an encyclopedia entry...especially since Haisch's comments in that article are more level-headed than Firmage's outbursts. Granted, it is entertaining---however it feels more like a smear campaign of what are effectively the leaders of a Wikipedia competitor.
Trelayne 09:13, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Was the Calphysics institute mainly funded by Joe Firmage? Considering [2], the timing seems about right. Iin [3] I read that Firmage served as "chairman" of the institute, and in [4] he claims that the Calphysics institute is the "theoretical studies division" of his Motion Sciences Organization. AxelBoldt 16:20, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
This article has been editted by the subject in clear conflict with WP:AUTO. It is also clear that the article is filled with meaningless accolades and legitimizing remarks in an attempt to thwart WP:NPOV. Many of the statements are not backed up by sources listed and lack WP:V (ie what the subject is best known for). If you want to see how to treat controversial fringe scientists such as this, look to Eric Lerner, currently undergoing a major reworking. This kind of posturing is WP:NOT for Wikipedia. -- ScienceApologist 21:53, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
citation needed's
you added were supported with evidence further down in the article. For instance, does anyone dispute that he is an astrophysicist, that he is involved in ManyOne, or that he wrote a book attempting to reconcile scientific belief with religion?
AxelBoldt 18:42, 8 October 2006 (UTC)User:Sammyterry is still removing sourced material, and I don't want to exceed 3rr. I reported it here and here, and given the subject of the article edits himself here, also noted it here. Please pay extra close attention on this BLP article. · XP · 21:32, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Footnotes for an explanation of how to generate footnotes using the <ref(erences/)> tags Nhl4hamilton ( talk) 07:58, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
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