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Are there any know references to the Bell Witch phenomenon from the actual time they allegedly occurred (1817-1820) or immediately thereafter? Or is all such documentation from much later in the century? 98.221.137.91 ( talk) 07:44, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
The hauntings took place between 1817 and 1820, yet the first documentation of the event came in 1887, 70 years afterward, when nearly every possible witness was dead? Who's to say this wasn't just some story made up by a random author which snow-balled into a classic folktale?
The actual article mentioned above was published in 'Goodspeed's History of Tennessee' (Robertson County) for 1886. In 1886, the only person left from the original family of John Bell (1750-1820) was Elizabeth Bell Powell (Betsy) who was then living with her daughter in Mississippi. Betsy died two years later in 1888. I highly suspect the article was written for Goodspeed by M. V. Ingram as it contains elements of Ingram's style, and sounds like a promotional of the legend. Most of the articles were collected by agents of Goodspeed from officials of the counties in Tennessee. ( Jcook56050 ( talk) 22:02, 5 February 2009 (UTC))
In reponse to the above question - a copy of the Saturday Evening Post Article and Goodspeeds's History of TN both predate Ingram's book by over a quarter of a century. This gives credence to the fact that the initial story is not a fabrication by Ingram. Ingram would have been a young boy when the original artical was printed. Additionally Ingram had the opportunity to speak to people who experienced the original haunting such as Ibby Gunn and Mahala Byns Darden. Mahala Darden is also on the record about Ingram speaking to herself and others who lived through the events. Additionally we know that Ingram was given Richard Williams Bell's written account of the haunting. Much ado is made about Ingram being a bad faith actor and making the story up but there is no evidence to support this. For a long time the "smoking gun" against Ingram was the fact that there was no evidence of the Saturday Evening Post article he references. But evidence of Post article has long existed and we now have four separate sources for the article - Ingram himself, The New England Farmer of Boston [1], Green Mountain Freeman of Vermont [2], and the Saturday Evening Posts own retraction of the article. Speculation that Ingram "enhanced" the story is just that, speculation. In the over 100 years the book has been in print there has never been any evidence that Ingram added to any of stories outside of a hefty dose of skepticism.
For another account - the article from the Daily American [3] mentions people many people in the area to visit the witch and that "any doubters can come see for themselves." This matches up with both the Goodspeed and Saturday Evening Post articles. We now have three different sources citing people coming to the community to visit the witch prior to Ingram's book being published. This is all already referenced in the main article but the entire page needs cleaned up to be made into a coherent whole.
As for the Goodspeed article - this article predates Ingram's in person, boots on the ground research. There is NO REASON to "highly suspect" the article was written by Ingram. This is another accusation that has less documentation that Ingram's work and amounts to nothing more than opinion and conjecture. If the article is written by Ingram, prove it. But one should not discount the article merely because one feels it "contains elements of Ingram's style."
That leads to next question - Why should Ingram's account not be taken at face value? He was a newspaper man, he spoke to eye witnesses, his time researching the subject is documented from multiple sources, and he was trusted by the family enough to look after their only written account. None of the Bell family or their direct descendants who no doubt both heard the stories and read the book have come forth to discount any of Ingram's claims.
Here are a couple of references, from the Chronicling America newspaper archive. Not much, but they do relate a murder of a man named Smith, and accusation of witchcraft and Lindard and Burgess from 1868 and 1869.
[4] Nashville Union and American, Saturday, March 20, 1869 "The case of the State vs. Clinard and Burgess, for the murder of James Brith, a supposed witch, was continued upon affidavits of the defendants." The article does give the last name of "Brith" but that may have been a problem of transcription of the name "Smith.
[5] The New York Herald, Sunday, Sept 20, 1868 "The man who was found dead a few days ago in the woods near Cedar Hill, Robertson county, Tenn., was named Smith. His murderers were Dick Burgess and Tom Linard, and they have been arrested and lodged in jail. An old feud seems to have been the cause of the killing. Hypercallipygian ( talk) 01:32, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
The Dunning Skeptic article. [6] This is a poor source as the article doesn't add anything new to the discussion and get several things wrong. Dunning has the exact same sources to look at as everybody else and has no great insights into the phenomenon. Why should we take Dunning's skepticism over Ingram's accounts from first and second hand witnesses. Dunning goes as far to say they Ingram never interviewed any eye-witnesses or second hand witnesses of the account. This simply isn't true as Mahala Darden is in Ingram's book and she is quoted as remembering Ingram's visit. [7] It was noted in the article that Mahala was "very active and bright in intellect...Her memory is as clear as crystal." She was capable of recalling when she saw General Lafayette down to the day and recount other events of the same day even though they happened 75 years prior. From all indications, she is reliable witness. Yes, the General Jackson story doesn't mesh up and Dunning is correct on that but 70+ years had passed between John Bell dying and Ingram's investigation. I would propose it is possible that the event attributed to Jackson took place but to a different individual. It might be worth the time to see what other Generals and/or officers might have been in the area. Jackson was extremely popular in TN and the changing of the name to Jackson within a story such as this might be done to give it more credibility or make a better story. The changing of one detail makes much more sense then attempting to dismiss the story completely. If nothing else, this line of conjecture holds as much weight as any of the others. Bhutlah ( talk) 11:10, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
Dunning does not meet the reliable source material. Self Published sources are not reliable sources per wikipedia [8] as his material falls under a self published personal website and/or personal blog and/or user created content. Furthermore Dunning ignores firsthand, secondhand, and tertiary sources. Bhutlah ( talk) 11:40, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
I am in no way claiming to be an "expert" but I am going back to the original source material. If Dunning's observations are based on other sources then those sources should be used as the primary sources for the purposes of this article. There is no need to run the material through a second or third filter. What research has Bhutlah added that was his own? Please feel free to back up your statement! There was speculation on the Andrew Jackson bit but that is in the talk section and not in the article itself. All changes made are cited and come from the original source materials.
Lets examine Dunning's credibility on the Subject:
1. Lying about the fact that Ingram never spoke to first and secondhand witnesses such as Allan Bell, Joel E. Bell, Mahala Darling, and Nancy Ayers ("every person with firsthand knowledge of the Bell Witch hauntings was already dead when Ingram started his book; in fact, every person with secondhand knowledge was even dead." [10]) This ignores the fact that Ingram was researching the subject and had spoken to Joel Bell as early as 1867 and newspaper accounts of Ingram doing research in the area and speaking to people who had first and secondhand accounts of the events. "I remember distinctly the discussion between Mr. Joel E. Bell and myself in 1867, in regard to the publication of the history of the Bell Witch," [11] - Ingram
2. Lying about the fact that all first and secondhand witnesses were dead at the time of Ingram's original article. (see above) (Partial list of living firsthand witnesses in 1867 when Ingram began his work: Joel Bell, Betsy Bell, Frank Miles, Lawson Fort, Patrick MeGowen, Mahala Darling, Ibby Gunn and Nancy Ayers)
3. Dunning says Ingram held onto the Bell Diary until the death of the immediate family. "in 1857 Richard gave the diary to his son, Allen Bell, who subsequently (and quite inexplicably) gave it to Ingram, with instructions to keep it private until after the deaths of the immediate family." - Dunning False. John Allen Bell handed over the manuscripts after the deaths of the immediate family not before.
3. Attempting to discredit Allen Bell while ignoring the reasons given for why the journal wasn't initially published or shared with the public. "in 1857 Richard gave the diary to his son, Allen Bell, who subsequently (and quite inexplicably) gave it to Ingram, with instructions to keep it private until after the deaths of the immediate family" [12] - Dunning. This ignores the letter from John Allen Bell where we're told that Ingram had previously tried to get a copy of the diary but was denied, "Some years ago, while you were engaged in publishing a newspaper at Springfield, Tenn., Uncle Joel Bell applied to me for the manuscript of my father, Williams Bell, stating that the application was made at your request for the purpose of incorporating the same in a full and complete history of the so-called Bell Witch, which proposition I declined to accede to at that time, for several reasons that need not now be mentioned." [13]
4. Dunning ignores John Allan's account for the reason why the family waited so long to hand over the diary to anybody. "after writing his own memories, and the recollections of other members of the family, father consulted with Uncle John Bell in regard to the matter, and they determined that in view of all the surrounding circumstances, it was best that it should not be published during the life of any of Grandfather John Bell's immediate family" [14] The material wasn't published due to the surrounding circumstances (i.e. most likely a fear of the events beginning again) and was handed over to Ingram following the death of Joel Egbert Bell in 1890.
5. Dunning ask, " Why would Allen Bell give away such a unique heirloom to Ingram?" [15] while ignoring John Allen Bell's answer to this very question, "You having made the application years ago, and believing you are capable, and will if you undertake it, being already acquainted with many of the circumstances, compile a faithful history of the events, I am willing to let you have this manuscript and notes, on the condition that you will agree to include all other corroborative testimony still to be had, and write a deserved sketch of Grandfather John Bell and family, and those associated with him in any way during the period of the unexplained visitation which afflicted him and gave rise to the excitement." He gave the journal to Ingram b/c he knew Ingram had been looking into and interviewing people on the subject decades at this point.
6. Dunning states, "That happened around 1880, when Ingram began writing his book." [16] Dunning is wrong again, Ingram was working on publishing a history of the events as early as 1867. "I remember distinctly the discussion between Mr. Joel E. Bell and myself in 1867, in regard to the publication of the history of the Bell Witch,"
7. Attempting to discredit Ingram and ascribe nefarious motives to Ingram's research. "Ingram had every reason to falsify the diary's existence." [17] But Dunning fails to back this statement up with anything factual. This is nothing more than hearsay and slander. Ingram himself states his purpose in writing his book, "in undertaking the work, it shall not be my purpose to account for the series of dramatic events that so confused and mystified people at that time, but compile the data and let readers form their own conclusion." This approach would fall right in line with Ingram's decades of working in the Newspaper business and falls in line with modern research respecting a NPOV.
8. Dismissing secondary sources that back up Ingram's account of the Saturday Evening Post (via the retraction). "Ingram's book also falsified at least one other source." [18] Even if it was years later before we got to see the reprints of the Saturday Evening Post article - Dunning has no good reason to outright dismiss it's existence due to the Saturday Evening Post's retraction. Dunning can't claim ignorance of the retraction as he brings it up in his article, "the Saturday Evening Post ran a story about the Bell Witch, blaming the crazy daughter Elizabeth for everything, and then retracted the story shortly thereafter..." [19] If Dunning is a good faith actor, why did he ignore/dismiss the retraction as a secondary source?
9. Dunning seems to imply that William Bell's account is false due to the fact that he waited more than 30 years to write down the events that took place ("According to Ingram, Richard waited until 1846, more than 30 years, before he actually wrote down the events in his diary. He recorded his 30 year old memories of being a six year old child." [20]) but fails to recognize that the Saturday Evening Post article IS THE REASON why William Bell wrote his account of the events 30+ years later! "Some enterprising person, wise in his own conceit, undertook to solve the mystery, and failing to arrive at any satisfactory conclusion, gave currency to a suspicion that the young daughter, Betsy Bell, actuated by her brothers, John and Drewry, was the author of the demonstration, and that the purpose was to make money by the exhibitions. This version found lodgment in many minds not acquainted with the facts, and the discussion became very distasteful and irritating to the family, and Williams Bell determined to write the incidents and truth of the whole story and let the public pass upon the injustice of such a judgment." [21]
10. Dunning states: "The story of John Bell's murder at the hands of the Bell Witch was never described in any published account..." [22] FALSE. Although the year of John Bell's death is listed as 1822 in this account - An issue The American Historcal Magazine published in October of 1900 [23] recounts the death of John Bell at the hands of the Bell Witch. Of note, this story has numerous factual differences from Ingram's account but both follow a similar same narrative. But that doesn't change the fact that Dunning is factually wrong in stating there are no other published accounts.
11. Andrew Jackson - "Ingram almost certainly made up the entire Andrew Jackson incident." [24] - Dunning Why does Dunning make this claim? Ingram was reporting on what he heard from the community. If this is one of the community's stories why should Ingram not include it? The story itself is almost certainly false (as can be documented by other historical references that place Jackson in other places) but that doesn't change that the story exist. Ingram makes this clear in the Introduction of his book: "it shall not be my purpose to account for the series of dramatic events . . . but compile the data and let readers form their own conclusion." [25] Why should we doubt that Ingram was recounting a story from the community? Ingram's book is not a personal account but instead is one where he attempts to "compile data and let the readers for their own conclusion." [26] The story may be factually incorrect but Dunning provides no proof that Ingram falsified the account rather than reported on what he was being told at the time. What proof does Dunning have that Ingram was the one who falsified the account rather than just reporting on it?
I don't feel the need to keep going. As demonstrated above Dunning continuously misrepresents and omits in order to build a narrative he would prefer. He slanders primary sources without reason, misrepresents the facts, dismisses supporting documentation, attributes motives without proof/reason/cause, and ignores first and secondhand accounts. Not all, but the majority of Dunning's claims can be dismissed by simply reading the Introduction to Ingram's book. I don't understand the desire to hold onto Dunning as a source - he's a noted Skeptic, and as such he and his work should be open to skepticism. Just b/c somebody is a Skeptic doesn't mean that what they putting into print is factually correct. Nor should he get a pass when his article is full of factual errors. Bhutlah ( talk) 16:58, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
As an aside – is it cool if we copy/paste this discussion into the Skeptics portion of the talk page as that is where it belongs. Yeah, I know I started the Dunning stuff here but attempting to clean it up into the correct section. Bhutlah ( talk) 16:58, 4 August 2019 (UTC) Or is this better suited to the documentation section?
If Skeptoid isn't RS then why does it have it's own template? /info/en/?search=Template:Skeptoid?fbclid=IwAR014YLROx88PLKPnTOhrmEa32ocf_seSvvKSixEgO18SccOiFYUNXMMe3E Sgerbic ( talk) 02:28, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
References
What is with the spirit names? Mathematics seems like a retarded name for anyone, let alone a ghost, and Cypocraphy isn't even a word.
Kate Batts was not the only spirit, but there were two others. Their names were "Blackdog" and "Jerusalem" 71.115.244.65 ( talk) 05:41, 23 March 2010 (UTC)Naiki Dans
There were four other spirits - not 2. Blackdog, Mathematics, Cypocryphy, and Jerusulem. [1] Bhutlah ( talk) 11:41, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
References
The general tone of this article is roughly comparable to that of a campfire story. This is an encyclopedia. Jaimetout 03:59, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I being from clarksville, TN which is right next to Adams finds this article to be fine and accurate with the History of the bell witch. I know the current owners and i have had errie occurences happen. This article shoud not de disputed.
A post by some random anonymous person on the Internet does not qualify as a reliable source. This article is certainly disputed.
"The Bell Witch haunting is the name given to a series of SUPPOSEDLY real events" Well i removed the disputed, because we are not talking about the existence of the ghost, but of the events as history knows them to be. Again the proof or existence of the Bell Witch ghost is not the debate.-- Alembic 02:10, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone mind if I remove the "quotes" later today? They don't add any value, and in fact come across as a sneer.
Yes, and? What were the events you mentioned? DS 17:59, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
holadiee
This page is incredibly frustrating, the most noticeable problem being how many of the statements made in the Legend section are directly re-iterated in the Analysis section. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.166.211.202 ( talk) 07:18, 5 December 2006 (UTC).
The Middle Tennessee Skeptics analysis of the Bell Witch legend is based on actual research of the available evidence. Mis-labeling it as a "statement" or "opinion piece" is deliberately misleading POV. -- Centauri 07:23, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Please stop making specious, nonsensical statements and vandalising the description of the link you disagree with. It's a perfectly reliable external link that has direct relevance to the article - particularly as it constitutes the only reasoned opinion to balance the "woo-woo" paranormal gobledegook that forms the basis of all the other links currently listed - and I don't see you getting too hot under the collar about those. -- Centauri 11:46, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I reviewed the Middle Tennessee Skeptic site and I think it is a valid link to include in the "external links" section. I do not believe it is notable enough to warrant it's own section in the article. The research seems to be woefully incomplete, having relied on only one source, the Fitzhugh book. Additionally, Wikipedia states that original resarch is not a valid source for articles on this site. nut-meg 00:56, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
The Dunning article [1] should not be used. He claims all published accounts have their roots in the Igram book. The wiki article list multiple sources going back more than a quarter of the century before Ingram ever took up looking into the Bell Witch. Dunning states that Ingram's book is based entirely upon the diary of Richard Bell and this is not the case. There are at least 2 direct eyewitnesses Ingram spoke to and at least one of these conversations is back up via a third source The Leaf-Chronicle. [2] Dunning states, "every person with firsthand knowledge of the Bell Witch hauntings was already dead when Ingram started his book; in fact, every person with secondhand knowledge was even dead." This statement is demonstrably false. He received the diary from the son of Richard Bell. Allen Bell was a second hand witness via his father. He then attempts to discredit Richard Bell, Allen Bell and Ingram without a shred of evidence to base his claims on. Yes, the diary might not have existed but what is the reason to doubt the story. He states Ingram had every reason to falsify the diary but fails to give a single reason why? I would challenge Dunning to give us every reason. One of Dunning again attempts to discredit Ingram by stating that the Saturday Evening Post article Ingram references never existed but surprise! We now have two sources where the article was reprinted in other newspapers and the retraction from the Post. Dunning goes as far to say that Ingram "falsified" this source based on the fact that one other researcher, Jack Cook, failed to find the article when he went through Saturday Evening Post archives. It should be mentioned that not all articles of the Saturday Evening Post have been preserved. He states that only one other source predates Ingram's but I can find at least three (four?) referenced in the Bell Witch Wiki page as it now stands. Dunning also criticizes the Andrew Jackson story without taking into consideration that the name of the general's name may have been changed in the 70+ years later when Ingram did his research. He claims that all of the significant facts of the story have been falsified but upon closer inspection it is his article that is full of holes and inaccuracies. Bhutlah ( talk) 11:09, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
References
At the present this article is little more than a totally uncritical, slack-jawed and rather confused retelling of a well-known ghost story - and I make that statement as the original creator of the article. In order to ensure this article complies with Wikipedia WP:NPOV, WP:OR and WP:V policies a major re-write is called for, and central to that is a proper relation of the legend as it is told by Pat Fitzhugh, who is the leading supporter of the "paranormal" origins theory. I've now started adding this, and invite other thoughts and contributions that will help in this process. -- Centauri 01:20, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
I have a very clear understanding of what you are trying to do. The Tennessee Skeptics website is a perfectly valid reference site. Whether it was written by one person or an army of worker bees and a dancing iguana, and whether it is itself referenced in other sources is irrelevant and entirely beside the point. Your argument that it must somehow be held to a different - and frankly, bizarre - accountability standard than the other linked sites promoting the paranormal POV, is entirely specious. -- Centauri 20:48, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I think you shouldn't worry about putting in the skeptics link. Let the reader decide. (Plesmond)
According to WP:External Links 3. On articles with multiple points of view, a link to prominent sites dedicated to each, with a detailed explanation of each link. The number of links dedicated to one point of view should not overwhelm the number dedicated to any other. One should attempt to add comments to these links informing the reader of their point of view. If one point of view dominates informed opinion, that should be represented first. (For more information, see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view – in particular, Wikipedia's guidelines on undue weight.) 4. Sites that contain neutral and accurate material not already in the article. Ideally this content should be integrated into the Wikipedia article, then the link would remain as a reference, but in some cases this is not possible for copyright reasons or because the site has a level of detail which is inappropriate for the Wikipedia article.
For those reasons, I believe that http://mtskeptics.homestead.com/BellWitch.html is worthwhile keeping in the External Links section. Englishrose 19:37, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I have attempted to update my outside link to
http://bellwitchlegend.blogspot.com/ in order to present my updated paper, "The Spirit of Red River." I have been researching the historical data on the legend since 1980, and I can say with almost 100 percent certainty that this is a very cleverly written fiction using some very believable references to real people and events of the time. I must admit that the actual historical events and documents were more interesting than the book written by M. V. Ingram once I became aware of how those events actually related to Ingram and the Bell family. My wish is that this wikipedia article had more relevant information rather than being a promotional of the witch legend. It has improved over time, but needs lots of revision. The MT Skeptics link is indeed one of the only outside links that details some of the reasoning behind a good, healthy skepticism over this story and I have spoken with the author, who is very versed in the real history behind the legend. You'll find my work on that web site as well. I'm very happy to see an entry of the legend on Wikipedia. If anyone needs more detailed information, please do not hesitate to ask. Thanks! (
Jcook56050 (
talk) 21:52, 5 February 2009 (UTC))
I do see your point. But, if you approach this from the viewpoint of an historical researcher, the "spirit events" as related by Ingram are not actually provable at all since 25 years of research by some very dedicated people have revealed no first hand documents or verifiable evidence. And, Ingram challenges us by asserting these events were real. However, that is simply part of the legend, and plays a large part in why it has remained so popular after so many years. I'll admit that Ingram's book is a very addictive narrative and quite fun. Good luck! ( Jcook56050 ( talk) 21:42, 17 February 2009 (UTC))
In the Analysis section, one of the sources is Our Family Trouble, written by Richard William Bell. Later, we are told that this book was written thirty years after the events described, which puts it at 1858 or so. But we are also told that an 1886 book is the earliest publication of the Bell Witch story.
Now maybe Bell's diary was never published, so that the later book really is the first published account. But if that's the case, it would be nice to explicitly say so. As it is, I found the text confusing. Phiwum 19:05, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
This page is extremely biased, and the worst part is it seems to be biased towards different opinions in different parts of the article. While I agree that the paranormal should not be given as the "true" conclusion, the article actually has bias towards saying that the legend is a fabrication. The tone is more or less that of "a lot of people believe in the bell witch hauntings, but it is simply superstition." It should be given more or less as "Group A believes that the Bell Witch Hauntings actually occurred, while Group B believes it is a fabrication and/or superstitious," with Group A and Group B being defined explicitly, and not simply "some people say this and others say this." Although some science minds might believe that a scientific view of the topic should be viewed as fact the truth is many people believe that the legend is true and therefore we must assume a NPOV. Irregardless, the bulk of the article should be giving information about the legend, and not arguing with itself about whether the events actually occurred. As far as this content is concerned, I do believe that it gives good information but the article should touch on other versions of the legend. Finally I must say that the link in question that has created a sort of edit battle is a valid link, since it is accepted by some people as fact and therefore constitutes a valid opinion, although I wonder whether a website that advocates a NPOV would be better served linking to pages that also hold a NPOV.
Please Name Specific Person or Group Tags appear several times, even when a person or given or when it makes no sence. I am removing these, as I believe they are vandalism. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.91.155.164 ( talk) 04:21, 20 December 2006 (UTC).
I've removed a lot of the weaselyness in the "Legend" section. I've also temporarily removed the "Skeptical Analysis" section until I can find better researced articles. nut-meg 19:09, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Hmm, my revert note didn't seem to go through to the history page, but I did revert it. There's a series of three edits in a row from the same IP, all vandalism, so the version from before that has been restored. The Nixinator 20:29, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I've read the Bell property is still intact and now owned by a trust, and the Bell home is still standing. Anybody else know more about this? Where does it stand? -- Ragemanchoo ( talk) 03:29, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
An IMDb page (not the best source!) says "Andrew Jackson is quoted as saying, "I would rather take on the entire English Fleet than stay one night at the Bell House." He later formed a group of men to test the rumors of the Bell haunting. Their findings are documented in M. V. Ingram's 1894 book, An Authenticated History of The Famous Bell Witch." This article states "No mention of the Bell Witch was ever made by Jackson in any of his letters, journals or papers, however." Which is correct? Шизомби ( talk) 18:41, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Answer: Researching the history of Andrew Jackson, you will find the following: (quoted from my paper, "The Spirit of Red River") 'The information on Andrew Jackson given in the "Authenticated History" is incorrect. It is well written and very entertaining, but incorrect. Simply put, in 1819 Major General Andrew Jackson accompanied President James Monroe on a tour of the Western Armies of the United States that ended in Lexington Kentucky. This tour occurred during the period in which Ingram tells of Jackson's encounter with the Bell Witch. (Ingram never actually revealed the date, but we must assume by real history that it was in 1819). Despite his public popularity, Major Jackson almost failed to make the tour due to a major illness and declining health. He had recently escaped official censure by the United States Congress for unauthorized actions he had taken on a military campaign, and was advised not to accompany the President through the state of Georgia where he was not welcome. Jackson had also admonished the President to allow him a peaceful retirement. Monroe declined. Upon returning home, he remained bed ridden for some time in recovery. At no other documented time from 1814 to 1820 was Jackson in the Springfield area for any reason (even though records from the clerk reveal that he did indeed own tracts of land in Robertson County as did many absentee speculators of the period). Actual letters and documentation freely available from the Library of Congress and several published histories, especially those of Congressional Historian, Dr. Robert Remini, verify these events. The only major event in Robertson County that happened during Jackson's return to Nashville was the dedication of the new courthouse in Springfield. There were no newspaper accounts that Jackson was present for that event.' Having read through all of President Jackson's papers for the period in question, I found no record of any visits to the Bell Plantation nor any quotes as mentioned above. ( Jcook56050 ( talk) 21:51, 5 February 2009 (UTC)).
Hey buddy...hate to be the one to break it to you but noone cares that you "wrote a paper" about the legend...so have many other college students. We have all read the same "documents". Your paper proves nothing. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
199.36.35.40 (
talk) 03:03, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
I propose the Andrew Jackson story be approached from a different direction. Jackson was extremely popular in TN at the time and Ingram wrote his book some 70+ years after John Bell Sr. passed away. With that in mind, it is possible that the name was changed at some point in time and it might be worth looking into other Generals, Officers, etc. that came through the area at the time. It is noted in several sources that predate the Ingram book that people were coming from far away (25-50 miles) to see the witch and would not be surprising if at least one retinue of soldiers passed through the area during that time. Bhutlah ( talk) 11:09, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
I have removed the contents of the following box:
“ | A remarkable occurrence, which attracted widespread interest, was connected with the family of Garry Bell, (Note: There was, of course, no "Garry Bell" in the family, there was, however according to some research, among the others who emigrated with John Bell to Robertson County a Jerry Batts, who may have been related to the "Kate Batts" who figured prominently in the legend) who settled near what is now Adams Station about 1804. So great was the excitement that people came from hundreds of miles around to witness the manifestations of what was popularly known as the 'Bell Witch.' This witch was supposed to be some spiritual being having the voice and attributes of a woman. It was invisible to the eye, yet it would hold conversation and even shake hands with certain individuals. The feats it performed were wonderful and seemingly designed to annoy the family. It would take the sugar from the bowls, spill the milk, take the quilts from the beds, slap and pinch the children, and then laugh at the discomfiture of its victims. At first it was supposed to be a good spirit, but its subsequent acts, together with the curses with which it supplemented its remarks, proved the contrary. A volume might be written concerning the performance of this wonderful being, as they are now described by contemporaries and their descendants. That all this actually occurred will not be disputed, nor will a rational explanation be attempted. It is merely introduced as an example of superstition, weak in the minds of all but a few in those times, and yet not wholly extinct. | ” |
It is not acceptable in an article in its current form. It is introduced with a citation for a specific work, to wit:
That citation may only be offered by an editor who has seen the work, and for a direct quotation like this, copied it verbatim et literatim (or correspondingly compared someone else's transcription against the work).
The passage as quoted clearly has two voices, the predominant voice and voice of the italicized and parenthesized portion. There are three obvious interpretations of this:
Each of the three would violate our standards. This needs to be explained, and fixed, before the hole i left can be filled.
--
Jerzy•
t 08:28, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
I think there is an issue with one of the links. The first link, to the site maintained by the Middle Tennessee Skeptics review of the legend, is a good site to have, in theory. I think having a good site that can delve into the legend to try and verify it, rather than assuming it is true, is an important asset. However, after looking through it for several hours, the author/s psychoanalyze and diagnose the people involved in the legend (something which cannot and should not be done by a layperson, and especially not 150 years later), the author/s make hard statements of falsehood based on a variety of erroneous assumptions and "investigation" (for example, it is stated that there is no media reporting of this widely known event, yet the author/s fail to note that the one Tennessee paper, published in the adjoining country, that was publishing at that time rarely reported local events - The history of the Leaf Chronicle), and then, the least significant issue, but still important in a site such as this, is the poor writing, i.e. there is a lot of misspelling. So, I don't know if it should be deleted (and perhaps a new investigative site found) or if there should be a warning of non-impartiality. Thoughts?? Kkiely ( talk) 11:20, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
This article is tagged as an article about animal cruelty. Why? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Doctorhook.thepirate ( talk • contribs) 07:06, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
I remember watching a Travel Channel television show titled "Night Visitors" that included the Bell Witch as their starting story. It talks about a cave near Adams, TN where people say they hear strange noises and feel demonic/evil presences there yet today. The show calls it the "Bell Cave" currently owned (well the land the cave is on) by a couple that claims they hear growls, screams, and evil noises from the cave. The show also said that during the time of the "Bell Witch" haunting the Bell family, a little boy accidentally got his head stuck between two rocks in the cave (which was located on the northern end of the farm). After the boy had yelled for some time, the entire cave lit up and invisible hands tugged at his legs. His head was freed and he was pulled all the way back to the cave entrance by the witch. How true this all is I can't say but it was on that Travel Channel show. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.18.71.195 ( talk) 05:34, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
Reading through all the comments here on the talk page, it is obvious that the page needs help. I've been doing some research and think there are a lot of new good sources that have been published since the talk page comments from 2007-2009. There is a single-source flag from 2010 here also.
In case someone is going to be adding anything in the next day or so, don't please. Let me have my way with this page (as my user page) and hopefully everyone will be happy with my revision. If not you can always discuss the changes here. Sgerbic ( talk) 04:19, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
There are many references in the special collections library (rare books) at the University of Tennessee that are not included in this article. Among them are the first telling of the story by Harriet Parks Miller in 1859
The Bell witch of Middle Tennessee Harriet Parks Miller 1852 or 3-1935. Clarksville, Tenn., Leaf-Chronicle 1930
Available at Special Collections (UT) Rare Books (BF1578.B4 M5 )
As well as (and I can not believe it was not included in this article) the book by Charles Bailey Bell,
A mysterious spirit,
Charles Bailey Bell 1869-
Nashville, Tenn., C. Elder 1972
Available at Hodges Library Stacks (BF1473.B37 B4 1934a )
Brent Monahan's recounting:
The Bell witch : an American haunting : being the eye witness account of Richard Powell concerning the Bell witch haunting of Robertson County, Tennessee 1817-1821 Brent Monahan 1948-
and Gladys Barr (1905) Add to e-Shelf The Bell witch at Adams, Gladys H. Barr (Gladys Hutchison), 1905- Nashville, D. Hutchison Pub. Co. 1969 [1st ed.].
Available at Special Collections (UT) Rare Books (BF1578.B4 B3 )
This article needs serious updating. Soswalt — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.4.173.229 ( talk) 14:18, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
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Are there any know references to the Bell Witch phenomenon from the actual time they allegedly occurred (1817-1820) or immediately thereafter? Or is all such documentation from much later in the century? 98.221.137.91 ( talk) 07:44, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
The hauntings took place between 1817 and 1820, yet the first documentation of the event came in 1887, 70 years afterward, when nearly every possible witness was dead? Who's to say this wasn't just some story made up by a random author which snow-balled into a classic folktale?
The actual article mentioned above was published in 'Goodspeed's History of Tennessee' (Robertson County) for 1886. In 1886, the only person left from the original family of John Bell (1750-1820) was Elizabeth Bell Powell (Betsy) who was then living with her daughter in Mississippi. Betsy died two years later in 1888. I highly suspect the article was written for Goodspeed by M. V. Ingram as it contains elements of Ingram's style, and sounds like a promotional of the legend. Most of the articles were collected by agents of Goodspeed from officials of the counties in Tennessee. ( Jcook56050 ( talk) 22:02, 5 February 2009 (UTC))
In reponse to the above question - a copy of the Saturday Evening Post Article and Goodspeeds's History of TN both predate Ingram's book by over a quarter of a century. This gives credence to the fact that the initial story is not a fabrication by Ingram. Ingram would have been a young boy when the original artical was printed. Additionally Ingram had the opportunity to speak to people who experienced the original haunting such as Ibby Gunn and Mahala Byns Darden. Mahala Darden is also on the record about Ingram speaking to herself and others who lived through the events. Additionally we know that Ingram was given Richard Williams Bell's written account of the haunting. Much ado is made about Ingram being a bad faith actor and making the story up but there is no evidence to support this. For a long time the "smoking gun" against Ingram was the fact that there was no evidence of the Saturday Evening Post article he references. But evidence of Post article has long existed and we now have four separate sources for the article - Ingram himself, The New England Farmer of Boston [1], Green Mountain Freeman of Vermont [2], and the Saturday Evening Posts own retraction of the article. Speculation that Ingram "enhanced" the story is just that, speculation. In the over 100 years the book has been in print there has never been any evidence that Ingram added to any of stories outside of a hefty dose of skepticism.
For another account - the article from the Daily American [3] mentions people many people in the area to visit the witch and that "any doubters can come see for themselves." This matches up with both the Goodspeed and Saturday Evening Post articles. We now have three different sources citing people coming to the community to visit the witch prior to Ingram's book being published. This is all already referenced in the main article but the entire page needs cleaned up to be made into a coherent whole.
As for the Goodspeed article - this article predates Ingram's in person, boots on the ground research. There is NO REASON to "highly suspect" the article was written by Ingram. This is another accusation that has less documentation that Ingram's work and amounts to nothing more than opinion and conjecture. If the article is written by Ingram, prove it. But one should not discount the article merely because one feels it "contains elements of Ingram's style."
That leads to next question - Why should Ingram's account not be taken at face value? He was a newspaper man, he spoke to eye witnesses, his time researching the subject is documented from multiple sources, and he was trusted by the family enough to look after their only written account. None of the Bell family or their direct descendants who no doubt both heard the stories and read the book have come forth to discount any of Ingram's claims.
Here are a couple of references, from the Chronicling America newspaper archive. Not much, but they do relate a murder of a man named Smith, and accusation of witchcraft and Lindard and Burgess from 1868 and 1869.
[4] Nashville Union and American, Saturday, March 20, 1869 "The case of the State vs. Clinard and Burgess, for the murder of James Brith, a supposed witch, was continued upon affidavits of the defendants." The article does give the last name of "Brith" but that may have been a problem of transcription of the name "Smith.
[5] The New York Herald, Sunday, Sept 20, 1868 "The man who was found dead a few days ago in the woods near Cedar Hill, Robertson county, Tenn., was named Smith. His murderers were Dick Burgess and Tom Linard, and they have been arrested and lodged in jail. An old feud seems to have been the cause of the killing. Hypercallipygian ( talk) 01:32, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
The Dunning Skeptic article. [6] This is a poor source as the article doesn't add anything new to the discussion and get several things wrong. Dunning has the exact same sources to look at as everybody else and has no great insights into the phenomenon. Why should we take Dunning's skepticism over Ingram's accounts from first and second hand witnesses. Dunning goes as far to say they Ingram never interviewed any eye-witnesses or second hand witnesses of the account. This simply isn't true as Mahala Darden is in Ingram's book and she is quoted as remembering Ingram's visit. [7] It was noted in the article that Mahala was "very active and bright in intellect...Her memory is as clear as crystal." She was capable of recalling when she saw General Lafayette down to the day and recount other events of the same day even though they happened 75 years prior. From all indications, she is reliable witness. Yes, the General Jackson story doesn't mesh up and Dunning is correct on that but 70+ years had passed between John Bell dying and Ingram's investigation. I would propose it is possible that the event attributed to Jackson took place but to a different individual. It might be worth the time to see what other Generals and/or officers might have been in the area. Jackson was extremely popular in TN and the changing of the name to Jackson within a story such as this might be done to give it more credibility or make a better story. The changing of one detail makes much more sense then attempting to dismiss the story completely. If nothing else, this line of conjecture holds as much weight as any of the others. Bhutlah ( talk) 11:10, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
Dunning does not meet the reliable source material. Self Published sources are not reliable sources per wikipedia [8] as his material falls under a self published personal website and/or personal blog and/or user created content. Furthermore Dunning ignores firsthand, secondhand, and tertiary sources. Bhutlah ( talk) 11:40, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
I am in no way claiming to be an "expert" but I am going back to the original source material. If Dunning's observations are based on other sources then those sources should be used as the primary sources for the purposes of this article. There is no need to run the material through a second or third filter. What research has Bhutlah added that was his own? Please feel free to back up your statement! There was speculation on the Andrew Jackson bit but that is in the talk section and not in the article itself. All changes made are cited and come from the original source materials.
Lets examine Dunning's credibility on the Subject:
1. Lying about the fact that Ingram never spoke to first and secondhand witnesses such as Allan Bell, Joel E. Bell, Mahala Darling, and Nancy Ayers ("every person with firsthand knowledge of the Bell Witch hauntings was already dead when Ingram started his book; in fact, every person with secondhand knowledge was even dead." [10]) This ignores the fact that Ingram was researching the subject and had spoken to Joel Bell as early as 1867 and newspaper accounts of Ingram doing research in the area and speaking to people who had first and secondhand accounts of the events. "I remember distinctly the discussion between Mr. Joel E. Bell and myself in 1867, in regard to the publication of the history of the Bell Witch," [11] - Ingram
2. Lying about the fact that all first and secondhand witnesses were dead at the time of Ingram's original article. (see above) (Partial list of living firsthand witnesses in 1867 when Ingram began his work: Joel Bell, Betsy Bell, Frank Miles, Lawson Fort, Patrick MeGowen, Mahala Darling, Ibby Gunn and Nancy Ayers)
3. Dunning says Ingram held onto the Bell Diary until the death of the immediate family. "in 1857 Richard gave the diary to his son, Allen Bell, who subsequently (and quite inexplicably) gave it to Ingram, with instructions to keep it private until after the deaths of the immediate family." - Dunning False. John Allen Bell handed over the manuscripts after the deaths of the immediate family not before.
3. Attempting to discredit Allen Bell while ignoring the reasons given for why the journal wasn't initially published or shared with the public. "in 1857 Richard gave the diary to his son, Allen Bell, who subsequently (and quite inexplicably) gave it to Ingram, with instructions to keep it private until after the deaths of the immediate family" [12] - Dunning. This ignores the letter from John Allen Bell where we're told that Ingram had previously tried to get a copy of the diary but was denied, "Some years ago, while you were engaged in publishing a newspaper at Springfield, Tenn., Uncle Joel Bell applied to me for the manuscript of my father, Williams Bell, stating that the application was made at your request for the purpose of incorporating the same in a full and complete history of the so-called Bell Witch, which proposition I declined to accede to at that time, for several reasons that need not now be mentioned." [13]
4. Dunning ignores John Allan's account for the reason why the family waited so long to hand over the diary to anybody. "after writing his own memories, and the recollections of other members of the family, father consulted with Uncle John Bell in regard to the matter, and they determined that in view of all the surrounding circumstances, it was best that it should not be published during the life of any of Grandfather John Bell's immediate family" [14] The material wasn't published due to the surrounding circumstances (i.e. most likely a fear of the events beginning again) and was handed over to Ingram following the death of Joel Egbert Bell in 1890.
5. Dunning ask, " Why would Allen Bell give away such a unique heirloom to Ingram?" [15] while ignoring John Allen Bell's answer to this very question, "You having made the application years ago, and believing you are capable, and will if you undertake it, being already acquainted with many of the circumstances, compile a faithful history of the events, I am willing to let you have this manuscript and notes, on the condition that you will agree to include all other corroborative testimony still to be had, and write a deserved sketch of Grandfather John Bell and family, and those associated with him in any way during the period of the unexplained visitation which afflicted him and gave rise to the excitement." He gave the journal to Ingram b/c he knew Ingram had been looking into and interviewing people on the subject decades at this point.
6. Dunning states, "That happened around 1880, when Ingram began writing his book." [16] Dunning is wrong again, Ingram was working on publishing a history of the events as early as 1867. "I remember distinctly the discussion between Mr. Joel E. Bell and myself in 1867, in regard to the publication of the history of the Bell Witch,"
7. Attempting to discredit Ingram and ascribe nefarious motives to Ingram's research. "Ingram had every reason to falsify the diary's existence." [17] But Dunning fails to back this statement up with anything factual. This is nothing more than hearsay and slander. Ingram himself states his purpose in writing his book, "in undertaking the work, it shall not be my purpose to account for the series of dramatic events that so confused and mystified people at that time, but compile the data and let readers form their own conclusion." This approach would fall right in line with Ingram's decades of working in the Newspaper business and falls in line with modern research respecting a NPOV.
8. Dismissing secondary sources that back up Ingram's account of the Saturday Evening Post (via the retraction). "Ingram's book also falsified at least one other source." [18] Even if it was years later before we got to see the reprints of the Saturday Evening Post article - Dunning has no good reason to outright dismiss it's existence due to the Saturday Evening Post's retraction. Dunning can't claim ignorance of the retraction as he brings it up in his article, "the Saturday Evening Post ran a story about the Bell Witch, blaming the crazy daughter Elizabeth for everything, and then retracted the story shortly thereafter..." [19] If Dunning is a good faith actor, why did he ignore/dismiss the retraction as a secondary source?
9. Dunning seems to imply that William Bell's account is false due to the fact that he waited more than 30 years to write down the events that took place ("According to Ingram, Richard waited until 1846, more than 30 years, before he actually wrote down the events in his diary. He recorded his 30 year old memories of being a six year old child." [20]) but fails to recognize that the Saturday Evening Post article IS THE REASON why William Bell wrote his account of the events 30+ years later! "Some enterprising person, wise in his own conceit, undertook to solve the mystery, and failing to arrive at any satisfactory conclusion, gave currency to a suspicion that the young daughter, Betsy Bell, actuated by her brothers, John and Drewry, was the author of the demonstration, and that the purpose was to make money by the exhibitions. This version found lodgment in many minds not acquainted with the facts, and the discussion became very distasteful and irritating to the family, and Williams Bell determined to write the incidents and truth of the whole story and let the public pass upon the injustice of such a judgment." [21]
10. Dunning states: "The story of John Bell's murder at the hands of the Bell Witch was never described in any published account..." [22] FALSE. Although the year of John Bell's death is listed as 1822 in this account - An issue The American Historcal Magazine published in October of 1900 [23] recounts the death of John Bell at the hands of the Bell Witch. Of note, this story has numerous factual differences from Ingram's account but both follow a similar same narrative. But that doesn't change the fact that Dunning is factually wrong in stating there are no other published accounts.
11. Andrew Jackson - "Ingram almost certainly made up the entire Andrew Jackson incident." [24] - Dunning Why does Dunning make this claim? Ingram was reporting on what he heard from the community. If this is one of the community's stories why should Ingram not include it? The story itself is almost certainly false (as can be documented by other historical references that place Jackson in other places) but that doesn't change that the story exist. Ingram makes this clear in the Introduction of his book: "it shall not be my purpose to account for the series of dramatic events . . . but compile the data and let readers form their own conclusion." [25] Why should we doubt that Ingram was recounting a story from the community? Ingram's book is not a personal account but instead is one where he attempts to "compile data and let the readers for their own conclusion." [26] The story may be factually incorrect but Dunning provides no proof that Ingram falsified the account rather than reported on what he was being told at the time. What proof does Dunning have that Ingram was the one who falsified the account rather than just reporting on it?
I don't feel the need to keep going. As demonstrated above Dunning continuously misrepresents and omits in order to build a narrative he would prefer. He slanders primary sources without reason, misrepresents the facts, dismisses supporting documentation, attributes motives without proof/reason/cause, and ignores first and secondhand accounts. Not all, but the majority of Dunning's claims can be dismissed by simply reading the Introduction to Ingram's book. I don't understand the desire to hold onto Dunning as a source - he's a noted Skeptic, and as such he and his work should be open to skepticism. Just b/c somebody is a Skeptic doesn't mean that what they putting into print is factually correct. Nor should he get a pass when his article is full of factual errors. Bhutlah ( talk) 16:58, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
As an aside – is it cool if we copy/paste this discussion into the Skeptics portion of the talk page as that is where it belongs. Yeah, I know I started the Dunning stuff here but attempting to clean it up into the correct section. Bhutlah ( talk) 16:58, 4 August 2019 (UTC) Or is this better suited to the documentation section?
If Skeptoid isn't RS then why does it have it's own template? /info/en/?search=Template:Skeptoid?fbclid=IwAR014YLROx88PLKPnTOhrmEa32ocf_seSvvKSixEgO18SccOiFYUNXMMe3E Sgerbic ( talk) 02:28, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
References
What is with the spirit names? Mathematics seems like a retarded name for anyone, let alone a ghost, and Cypocraphy isn't even a word.
Kate Batts was not the only spirit, but there were two others. Their names were "Blackdog" and "Jerusalem" 71.115.244.65 ( talk) 05:41, 23 March 2010 (UTC)Naiki Dans
There were four other spirits - not 2. Blackdog, Mathematics, Cypocryphy, and Jerusulem. [1] Bhutlah ( talk) 11:41, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
References
The general tone of this article is roughly comparable to that of a campfire story. This is an encyclopedia. Jaimetout 03:59, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I being from clarksville, TN which is right next to Adams finds this article to be fine and accurate with the History of the bell witch. I know the current owners and i have had errie occurences happen. This article shoud not de disputed.
A post by some random anonymous person on the Internet does not qualify as a reliable source. This article is certainly disputed.
"The Bell Witch haunting is the name given to a series of SUPPOSEDLY real events" Well i removed the disputed, because we are not talking about the existence of the ghost, but of the events as history knows them to be. Again the proof or existence of the Bell Witch ghost is not the debate.-- Alembic 02:10, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone mind if I remove the "quotes" later today? They don't add any value, and in fact come across as a sneer.
Yes, and? What were the events you mentioned? DS 17:59, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
holadiee
This page is incredibly frustrating, the most noticeable problem being how many of the statements made in the Legend section are directly re-iterated in the Analysis section. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.166.211.202 ( talk) 07:18, 5 December 2006 (UTC).
The Middle Tennessee Skeptics analysis of the Bell Witch legend is based on actual research of the available evidence. Mis-labeling it as a "statement" or "opinion piece" is deliberately misleading POV. -- Centauri 07:23, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Please stop making specious, nonsensical statements and vandalising the description of the link you disagree with. It's a perfectly reliable external link that has direct relevance to the article - particularly as it constitutes the only reasoned opinion to balance the "woo-woo" paranormal gobledegook that forms the basis of all the other links currently listed - and I don't see you getting too hot under the collar about those. -- Centauri 11:46, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I reviewed the Middle Tennessee Skeptic site and I think it is a valid link to include in the "external links" section. I do not believe it is notable enough to warrant it's own section in the article. The research seems to be woefully incomplete, having relied on only one source, the Fitzhugh book. Additionally, Wikipedia states that original resarch is not a valid source for articles on this site. nut-meg 00:56, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
The Dunning article [1] should not be used. He claims all published accounts have their roots in the Igram book. The wiki article list multiple sources going back more than a quarter of the century before Ingram ever took up looking into the Bell Witch. Dunning states that Ingram's book is based entirely upon the diary of Richard Bell and this is not the case. There are at least 2 direct eyewitnesses Ingram spoke to and at least one of these conversations is back up via a third source The Leaf-Chronicle. [2] Dunning states, "every person with firsthand knowledge of the Bell Witch hauntings was already dead when Ingram started his book; in fact, every person with secondhand knowledge was even dead." This statement is demonstrably false. He received the diary from the son of Richard Bell. Allen Bell was a second hand witness via his father. He then attempts to discredit Richard Bell, Allen Bell and Ingram without a shred of evidence to base his claims on. Yes, the diary might not have existed but what is the reason to doubt the story. He states Ingram had every reason to falsify the diary but fails to give a single reason why? I would challenge Dunning to give us every reason. One of Dunning again attempts to discredit Ingram by stating that the Saturday Evening Post article Ingram references never existed but surprise! We now have two sources where the article was reprinted in other newspapers and the retraction from the Post. Dunning goes as far to say that Ingram "falsified" this source based on the fact that one other researcher, Jack Cook, failed to find the article when he went through Saturday Evening Post archives. It should be mentioned that not all articles of the Saturday Evening Post have been preserved. He states that only one other source predates Ingram's but I can find at least three (four?) referenced in the Bell Witch Wiki page as it now stands. Dunning also criticizes the Andrew Jackson story without taking into consideration that the name of the general's name may have been changed in the 70+ years later when Ingram did his research. He claims that all of the significant facts of the story have been falsified but upon closer inspection it is his article that is full of holes and inaccuracies. Bhutlah ( talk) 11:09, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
References
At the present this article is little more than a totally uncritical, slack-jawed and rather confused retelling of a well-known ghost story - and I make that statement as the original creator of the article. In order to ensure this article complies with Wikipedia WP:NPOV, WP:OR and WP:V policies a major re-write is called for, and central to that is a proper relation of the legend as it is told by Pat Fitzhugh, who is the leading supporter of the "paranormal" origins theory. I've now started adding this, and invite other thoughts and contributions that will help in this process. -- Centauri 01:20, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
I have a very clear understanding of what you are trying to do. The Tennessee Skeptics website is a perfectly valid reference site. Whether it was written by one person or an army of worker bees and a dancing iguana, and whether it is itself referenced in other sources is irrelevant and entirely beside the point. Your argument that it must somehow be held to a different - and frankly, bizarre - accountability standard than the other linked sites promoting the paranormal POV, is entirely specious. -- Centauri 20:48, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I think you shouldn't worry about putting in the skeptics link. Let the reader decide. (Plesmond)
According to WP:External Links 3. On articles with multiple points of view, a link to prominent sites dedicated to each, with a detailed explanation of each link. The number of links dedicated to one point of view should not overwhelm the number dedicated to any other. One should attempt to add comments to these links informing the reader of their point of view. If one point of view dominates informed opinion, that should be represented first. (For more information, see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view – in particular, Wikipedia's guidelines on undue weight.) 4. Sites that contain neutral and accurate material not already in the article. Ideally this content should be integrated into the Wikipedia article, then the link would remain as a reference, but in some cases this is not possible for copyright reasons or because the site has a level of detail which is inappropriate for the Wikipedia article.
For those reasons, I believe that http://mtskeptics.homestead.com/BellWitch.html is worthwhile keeping in the External Links section. Englishrose 19:37, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I have attempted to update my outside link to
http://bellwitchlegend.blogspot.com/ in order to present my updated paper, "The Spirit of Red River." I have been researching the historical data on the legend since 1980, and I can say with almost 100 percent certainty that this is a very cleverly written fiction using some very believable references to real people and events of the time. I must admit that the actual historical events and documents were more interesting than the book written by M. V. Ingram once I became aware of how those events actually related to Ingram and the Bell family. My wish is that this wikipedia article had more relevant information rather than being a promotional of the witch legend. It has improved over time, but needs lots of revision. The MT Skeptics link is indeed one of the only outside links that details some of the reasoning behind a good, healthy skepticism over this story and I have spoken with the author, who is very versed in the real history behind the legend. You'll find my work on that web site as well. I'm very happy to see an entry of the legend on Wikipedia. If anyone needs more detailed information, please do not hesitate to ask. Thanks! (
Jcook56050 (
talk) 21:52, 5 February 2009 (UTC))
I do see your point. But, if you approach this from the viewpoint of an historical researcher, the "spirit events" as related by Ingram are not actually provable at all since 25 years of research by some very dedicated people have revealed no first hand documents or verifiable evidence. And, Ingram challenges us by asserting these events were real. However, that is simply part of the legend, and plays a large part in why it has remained so popular after so many years. I'll admit that Ingram's book is a very addictive narrative and quite fun. Good luck! ( Jcook56050 ( talk) 21:42, 17 February 2009 (UTC))
In the Analysis section, one of the sources is Our Family Trouble, written by Richard William Bell. Later, we are told that this book was written thirty years after the events described, which puts it at 1858 or so. But we are also told that an 1886 book is the earliest publication of the Bell Witch story.
Now maybe Bell's diary was never published, so that the later book really is the first published account. But if that's the case, it would be nice to explicitly say so. As it is, I found the text confusing. Phiwum 19:05, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
This page is extremely biased, and the worst part is it seems to be biased towards different opinions in different parts of the article. While I agree that the paranormal should not be given as the "true" conclusion, the article actually has bias towards saying that the legend is a fabrication. The tone is more or less that of "a lot of people believe in the bell witch hauntings, but it is simply superstition." It should be given more or less as "Group A believes that the Bell Witch Hauntings actually occurred, while Group B believes it is a fabrication and/or superstitious," with Group A and Group B being defined explicitly, and not simply "some people say this and others say this." Although some science minds might believe that a scientific view of the topic should be viewed as fact the truth is many people believe that the legend is true and therefore we must assume a NPOV. Irregardless, the bulk of the article should be giving information about the legend, and not arguing with itself about whether the events actually occurred. As far as this content is concerned, I do believe that it gives good information but the article should touch on other versions of the legend. Finally I must say that the link in question that has created a sort of edit battle is a valid link, since it is accepted by some people as fact and therefore constitutes a valid opinion, although I wonder whether a website that advocates a NPOV would be better served linking to pages that also hold a NPOV.
Please Name Specific Person or Group Tags appear several times, even when a person or given or when it makes no sence. I am removing these, as I believe they are vandalism. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.91.155.164 ( talk) 04:21, 20 December 2006 (UTC).
I've removed a lot of the weaselyness in the "Legend" section. I've also temporarily removed the "Skeptical Analysis" section until I can find better researced articles. nut-meg 19:09, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Hmm, my revert note didn't seem to go through to the history page, but I did revert it. There's a series of three edits in a row from the same IP, all vandalism, so the version from before that has been restored. The Nixinator 20:29, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I've read the Bell property is still intact and now owned by a trust, and the Bell home is still standing. Anybody else know more about this? Where does it stand? -- Ragemanchoo ( talk) 03:29, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
An IMDb page (not the best source!) says "Andrew Jackson is quoted as saying, "I would rather take on the entire English Fleet than stay one night at the Bell House." He later formed a group of men to test the rumors of the Bell haunting. Their findings are documented in M. V. Ingram's 1894 book, An Authenticated History of The Famous Bell Witch." This article states "No mention of the Bell Witch was ever made by Jackson in any of his letters, journals or papers, however." Which is correct? Шизомби ( talk) 18:41, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Answer: Researching the history of Andrew Jackson, you will find the following: (quoted from my paper, "The Spirit of Red River") 'The information on Andrew Jackson given in the "Authenticated History" is incorrect. It is well written and very entertaining, but incorrect. Simply put, in 1819 Major General Andrew Jackson accompanied President James Monroe on a tour of the Western Armies of the United States that ended in Lexington Kentucky. This tour occurred during the period in which Ingram tells of Jackson's encounter with the Bell Witch. (Ingram never actually revealed the date, but we must assume by real history that it was in 1819). Despite his public popularity, Major Jackson almost failed to make the tour due to a major illness and declining health. He had recently escaped official censure by the United States Congress for unauthorized actions he had taken on a military campaign, and was advised not to accompany the President through the state of Georgia where he was not welcome. Jackson had also admonished the President to allow him a peaceful retirement. Monroe declined. Upon returning home, he remained bed ridden for some time in recovery. At no other documented time from 1814 to 1820 was Jackson in the Springfield area for any reason (even though records from the clerk reveal that he did indeed own tracts of land in Robertson County as did many absentee speculators of the period). Actual letters and documentation freely available from the Library of Congress and several published histories, especially those of Congressional Historian, Dr. Robert Remini, verify these events. The only major event in Robertson County that happened during Jackson's return to Nashville was the dedication of the new courthouse in Springfield. There were no newspaper accounts that Jackson was present for that event.' Having read through all of President Jackson's papers for the period in question, I found no record of any visits to the Bell Plantation nor any quotes as mentioned above. ( Jcook56050 ( talk) 21:51, 5 February 2009 (UTC)).
Hey buddy...hate to be the one to break it to you but noone cares that you "wrote a paper" about the legend...so have many other college students. We have all read the same "documents". Your paper proves nothing. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
199.36.35.40 (
talk) 03:03, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
I propose the Andrew Jackson story be approached from a different direction. Jackson was extremely popular in TN at the time and Ingram wrote his book some 70+ years after John Bell Sr. passed away. With that in mind, it is possible that the name was changed at some point in time and it might be worth looking into other Generals, Officers, etc. that came through the area at the time. It is noted in several sources that predate the Ingram book that people were coming from far away (25-50 miles) to see the witch and would not be surprising if at least one retinue of soldiers passed through the area during that time. Bhutlah ( talk) 11:09, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
I have removed the contents of the following box:
“ | A remarkable occurrence, which attracted widespread interest, was connected with the family of Garry Bell, (Note: There was, of course, no "Garry Bell" in the family, there was, however according to some research, among the others who emigrated with John Bell to Robertson County a Jerry Batts, who may have been related to the "Kate Batts" who figured prominently in the legend) who settled near what is now Adams Station about 1804. So great was the excitement that people came from hundreds of miles around to witness the manifestations of what was popularly known as the 'Bell Witch.' This witch was supposed to be some spiritual being having the voice and attributes of a woman. It was invisible to the eye, yet it would hold conversation and even shake hands with certain individuals. The feats it performed were wonderful and seemingly designed to annoy the family. It would take the sugar from the bowls, spill the milk, take the quilts from the beds, slap and pinch the children, and then laugh at the discomfiture of its victims. At first it was supposed to be a good spirit, but its subsequent acts, together with the curses with which it supplemented its remarks, proved the contrary. A volume might be written concerning the performance of this wonderful being, as they are now described by contemporaries and their descendants. That all this actually occurred will not be disputed, nor will a rational explanation be attempted. It is merely introduced as an example of superstition, weak in the minds of all but a few in those times, and yet not wholly extinct. | ” |
It is not acceptable in an article in its current form. It is introduced with a citation for a specific work, to wit:
That citation may only be offered by an editor who has seen the work, and for a direct quotation like this, copied it verbatim et literatim (or correspondingly compared someone else's transcription against the work).
The passage as quoted clearly has two voices, the predominant voice and voice of the italicized and parenthesized portion. There are three obvious interpretations of this:
Each of the three would violate our standards. This needs to be explained, and fixed, before the hole i left can be filled.
--
Jerzy•
t 08:28, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
I think there is an issue with one of the links. The first link, to the site maintained by the Middle Tennessee Skeptics review of the legend, is a good site to have, in theory. I think having a good site that can delve into the legend to try and verify it, rather than assuming it is true, is an important asset. However, after looking through it for several hours, the author/s psychoanalyze and diagnose the people involved in the legend (something which cannot and should not be done by a layperson, and especially not 150 years later), the author/s make hard statements of falsehood based on a variety of erroneous assumptions and "investigation" (for example, it is stated that there is no media reporting of this widely known event, yet the author/s fail to note that the one Tennessee paper, published in the adjoining country, that was publishing at that time rarely reported local events - The history of the Leaf Chronicle), and then, the least significant issue, but still important in a site such as this, is the poor writing, i.e. there is a lot of misspelling. So, I don't know if it should be deleted (and perhaps a new investigative site found) or if there should be a warning of non-impartiality. Thoughts?? Kkiely ( talk) 11:20, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
This article is tagged as an article about animal cruelty. Why? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Doctorhook.thepirate ( talk • contribs) 07:06, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
I remember watching a Travel Channel television show titled "Night Visitors" that included the Bell Witch as their starting story. It talks about a cave near Adams, TN where people say they hear strange noises and feel demonic/evil presences there yet today. The show calls it the "Bell Cave" currently owned (well the land the cave is on) by a couple that claims they hear growls, screams, and evil noises from the cave. The show also said that during the time of the "Bell Witch" haunting the Bell family, a little boy accidentally got his head stuck between two rocks in the cave (which was located on the northern end of the farm). After the boy had yelled for some time, the entire cave lit up and invisible hands tugged at his legs. His head was freed and he was pulled all the way back to the cave entrance by the witch. How true this all is I can't say but it was on that Travel Channel show. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.18.71.195 ( talk) 05:34, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
Reading through all the comments here on the talk page, it is obvious that the page needs help. I've been doing some research and think there are a lot of new good sources that have been published since the talk page comments from 2007-2009. There is a single-source flag from 2010 here also.
In case someone is going to be adding anything in the next day or so, don't please. Let me have my way with this page (as my user page) and hopefully everyone will be happy with my revision. If not you can always discuss the changes here. Sgerbic ( talk) 04:19, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
There are many references in the special collections library (rare books) at the University of Tennessee that are not included in this article. Among them are the first telling of the story by Harriet Parks Miller in 1859
The Bell witch of Middle Tennessee Harriet Parks Miller 1852 or 3-1935. Clarksville, Tenn., Leaf-Chronicle 1930
Available at Special Collections (UT) Rare Books (BF1578.B4 M5 )
As well as (and I can not believe it was not included in this article) the book by Charles Bailey Bell,
A mysterious spirit,
Charles Bailey Bell 1869-
Nashville, Tenn., C. Elder 1972
Available at Hodges Library Stacks (BF1473.B37 B4 1934a )
Brent Monahan's recounting:
The Bell witch : an American haunting : being the eye witness account of Richard Powell concerning the Bell witch haunting of Robertson County, Tennessee 1817-1821 Brent Monahan 1948-
and Gladys Barr (1905) Add to e-Shelf The Bell witch at Adams, Gladys H. Barr (Gladys Hutchison), 1905- Nashville, D. Hutchison Pub. Co. 1969 [1st ed.].
Available at Special Collections (UT) Rare Books (BF1578.B4 B3 )
This article needs serious updating. Soswalt — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.4.173.229 ( talk) 14:18, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
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