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This talkpage had become huge - I have created an archive. Please continue doing this whenever it goes over 30-40KB and goes static for a few days. Thanks. Achitnis 15:42, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
This whole section is based on two references which mention only two small villages(kangrali khurd and yallur). These cannot be taken as being representative of Belgaum district or even Belgaum city. Not only is this section unsupported by the sources it cites, it is also unencyclopedic. Unless somebody cites better sources and rewrites it, I shall be removing the section or rewriting it myself. Sarvagnya 18:41, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I have removed this section twice and will continue to do so(if it is added) because
Max, my edits to background section were not accidental.
"But, in 1956, the Belgaum district was incorporated into the newly formed Mysore state (now Karnataka) with the passage of the States Reorganisation Act, which reorganised India's states along linguistic and administrative lines [1], despite having a large Marathi-speaking population [2]; about three-fourths of the total population. [3]"
In the above paragraph, there is a problem with
The "despite having large M population" is not NPOV and suggests that the decision of the states reorganisation commission to include belgaum in Ktaka was WRONG and seeks to make a case for MH's claims. The subtle fact is that not even MH contests the actions of the States Reorganisation Committee anymore. The case in SC that has been filed by MH seeks the transfer of Belgaum to MH on the grounds of its opinion that Marathis are being tortured in Belgaum, NOT BECAUSE the states reorganisation committee committed a mistake.
Also I have added a citation which shows that the States Reorganisation Committee also considered Administrative factors during reorganisation, NOT JUST linguistic factors. So the phrase "...despite having a large Marathi population..." is a red herring and undermines the above said fact about the states reorg commission's methods.
And in any case, "...despite a large population..." is weasel. What does it mean? Is it supposed to mean that the Marathi population is the ONLY large population in Belgaum??
I have already explained my reasons for removing this portion before in my edit summaries. This line is a blatant lie and a red herring. The citation given pertains to present figures(supposedly), NOT the figures for 1956(which is what the paragraph starts off dealing with).
Max, I request you to remove these lines yourself, since I am afraid that I might be working too close to a 3rr vio. Sarvagnya 20:18, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
. Wonder what your reaction would have been to such accusations even when using reliable sources. Talking of reliable sources, can you point out a single 'non-reliable' source I've used on the two articles you mentioned? Also take a look at the history of this article(from the days when it was a part of Belgaum) and you will notice how this article went downhill once I walked away from it. Do a comparison of this article 'before' I walked away and how it ended up like 'after' I walked away and you will realise that you need to A a little more GF in my case. Sarvagnya 23:31, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
pl dont remove cited info or pass a judgement. it is a fact that marathis outnumber kannads in belgaum.
---
The population during the Mahajan commission was even more than it is today. The figures are elaborated in that article. You cant deny the fact that Belgaum had and has Marathi majority. Sarvabhaum 16:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
The article has been given a totally 'new' [n one sided] direction since the time i went through it a couple of years ago.Citing from present day newspapers would hardly lend credence to the topic. Anybody who has compared two newspapers from two different states about a common topic can realise that. Instead of having a one sided point of view or complaining each other of bias, i would suggest referring of better material;say official materials like the Gazetteer. Going through the Bombay Gazetteer by Venkataramgo Katti,1892[AES Publishers] would be a good step.ie if you seek the truth only and not any propaganda!!good luck Tej smiles ( talk) 15:02, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
Dear Max - "Relative majority"? Where? In Belgaum city? In Belgaum district? And while you point out that the frontline and other articles use the term, did you also notice that they use it within 'quotes'? As for "three-fourth of the population", I will maintain that it is a blatant lie until you can provide me a link to atleast a reliable source that cites official census figures if not the census figures themselves(say, from a Govt. of India website).
As for me, I have this. Note the 1991 census figures cited at the end of the article and if you do the math, you would agree that "three-fourth of the population" is just a whimsical fabrication of some journalist's vivid imagination.
And dont tell me Deccan Herald is partisan. Infact, some of the articles by Frontline/Hindu make a better case for Karnataka than even DH. And if I really loved DH so much, I could have found more articles from DH to use not just here but also on the Kaveri disputes page. Just take a look at a sample of articles,
DH:
[6],
[7],
[8]
FL/Hindu:
[9],
[10],
[11],
and tell me what makes you think DH is partisan. DH is no lottery for me. Infact, if you notice the articles I've edited, you'll see that I use DH mostly when I cant find other sources. Infact, it is no secret that DH is not even my favourite newspaper. Tarun bharat and Pudari, notwithstanding the circulation figures you claim for them, are no better or worse than the average tabloid in content(atleast from the evidence I've seen so far). Also if Tarun Bharat has even half the circulation claimed, it probably just makes an indirect statement that MH's claims of 'insecurity', 'oppression', 'genocide' etc., needs to be treated with the contempt it deserves.
And btw, the 2006 developments section, imo is a joke. I request you to remove it or atleast rewrite it. Or I will rewrite when I find time. But I will be very busy this coming month and infact will soon be going on a wikibreak. So I count on you to retain some sanity on this article esp., when SPAs and ips seem to be back with a vengeance.
Thats all for now. Will write about your other concerns on your talk page when I find time. Sarvagnya 17:57, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Pl share some jokes which u found on 2006 developments? Once again stop blanking information supported by quotes. Sarvabhaum 18:15, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Stop blanking the data. References are provided for everything. Sarvabhaum 06:22, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)
DumZiBoT ( talk) 09:42, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
As an endeavour to make the topic well researched, the new heading 'Historical reference' has been added. This should rest to peace a lot of arguments raised till now about the dispute. If anybody finds the info not to his taste, he should go through the given reference rather than editing it out which'll be not a right thing to do in the light of wiki policies. The reference being a Gazetteer and that too of the Bombay presidency should speak for itself and also be available to concerned parties (I doubt though if Karnataka groups will find it).
Tej smiles ( talk) 12:04, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
User Swapnil may care to add reasons before undoing the abovesaid 'Historical reference' section. One cant remove the material just because the matter doesnt suit his taste. @ Tej, good information.
Spartacusk ( talk) 17:07, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
Historical section seems to be in the eye of storm!! well if the excerpt frm the Gazetteer isnt valid 4 Wikipedia then what is... your day to day Tarun bharat fanciful reports? [even the Gazetteer is the 'Bombay Gazetteer'!!!].. why not discuss it out here rather than removing smethng that hurts ur interests..
Spartacusk ( talk) 17:54, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
'Historical reference' is now 'Boundary Commission's Decision'
Tej smiles ( talk) 17:30, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
[quote] But, in 1956, the Belgaum district was incorporated into the newly formed Mysore state (now Karnataka) with the passage of the States Reorganisation Act, which reorganised India's states along linguistic and administrative lines, despite having a large Marathi-speaking population[2]; about three-fourths (20lakh) of the then total population.[3] [/quote]
Population of Belgaum is around 6 lakh in 2000s. It's incorrect to say there was 20lakh Marathi speaking population then. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chetan tg ( talk • contribs) 19:45, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
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Lokmat refering it as ' Maharashtra Karnataka border conflict', 'Belgaon conflict' or 'Belgaon dispute'. In maharashtra Belgavi called as 'Belgaon' and is its real name. I suggest to change its name or make a redirect by the title, I above mentioned. Source - [ https://www.lokmat.com/maharashtra/police-lathicharge-silent-cycle-rally-belgaum-black-days-today-border-dispute/] Success think ( talk) 06:47, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
This article relates to border disputes in Belgaum, a city in India. The Belgaum article links here, and editors are requested to add any matter related to this subject to this article alone, to leave the Belgaum article in an encyclopedic state. |
This is not a forum for language-bias discussions or politics. Any such messages will be deleted. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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This talkpage had become huge - I have created an archive. Please continue doing this whenever it goes over 30-40KB and goes static for a few days. Thanks. Achitnis 15:42, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
This whole section is based on two references which mention only two small villages(kangrali khurd and yallur). These cannot be taken as being representative of Belgaum district or even Belgaum city. Not only is this section unsupported by the sources it cites, it is also unencyclopedic. Unless somebody cites better sources and rewrites it, I shall be removing the section or rewriting it myself. Sarvagnya 18:41, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I have removed this section twice and will continue to do so(if it is added) because
Max, my edits to background section were not accidental.
"But, in 1956, the Belgaum district was incorporated into the newly formed Mysore state (now Karnataka) with the passage of the States Reorganisation Act, which reorganised India's states along linguistic and administrative lines [1], despite having a large Marathi-speaking population [2]; about three-fourths of the total population. [3]"
In the above paragraph, there is a problem with
The "despite having large M population" is not NPOV and suggests that the decision of the states reorganisation commission to include belgaum in Ktaka was WRONG and seeks to make a case for MH's claims. The subtle fact is that not even MH contests the actions of the States Reorganisation Committee anymore. The case in SC that has been filed by MH seeks the transfer of Belgaum to MH on the grounds of its opinion that Marathis are being tortured in Belgaum, NOT BECAUSE the states reorganisation committee committed a mistake.
Also I have added a citation which shows that the States Reorganisation Committee also considered Administrative factors during reorganisation, NOT JUST linguistic factors. So the phrase "...despite having a large Marathi population..." is a red herring and undermines the above said fact about the states reorg commission's methods.
And in any case, "...despite a large population..." is weasel. What does it mean? Is it supposed to mean that the Marathi population is the ONLY large population in Belgaum??
I have already explained my reasons for removing this portion before in my edit summaries. This line is a blatant lie and a red herring. The citation given pertains to present figures(supposedly), NOT the figures for 1956(which is what the paragraph starts off dealing with).
Max, I request you to remove these lines yourself, since I am afraid that I might be working too close to a 3rr vio. Sarvagnya 20:18, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
. Wonder what your reaction would have been to such accusations even when using reliable sources. Talking of reliable sources, can you point out a single 'non-reliable' source I've used on the two articles you mentioned? Also take a look at the history of this article(from the days when it was a part of Belgaum) and you will notice how this article went downhill once I walked away from it. Do a comparison of this article 'before' I walked away and how it ended up like 'after' I walked away and you will realise that you need to A a little more GF in my case. Sarvagnya 23:31, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
pl dont remove cited info or pass a judgement. it is a fact that marathis outnumber kannads in belgaum.
---
The population during the Mahajan commission was even more than it is today. The figures are elaborated in that article. You cant deny the fact that Belgaum had and has Marathi majority. Sarvabhaum 16:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
The article has been given a totally 'new' [n one sided] direction since the time i went through it a couple of years ago.Citing from present day newspapers would hardly lend credence to the topic. Anybody who has compared two newspapers from two different states about a common topic can realise that. Instead of having a one sided point of view or complaining each other of bias, i would suggest referring of better material;say official materials like the Gazetteer. Going through the Bombay Gazetteer by Venkataramgo Katti,1892[AES Publishers] would be a good step.ie if you seek the truth only and not any propaganda!!good luck Tej smiles ( talk) 15:02, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
Dear Max - "Relative majority"? Where? In Belgaum city? In Belgaum district? And while you point out that the frontline and other articles use the term, did you also notice that they use it within 'quotes'? As for "three-fourth of the population", I will maintain that it is a blatant lie until you can provide me a link to atleast a reliable source that cites official census figures if not the census figures themselves(say, from a Govt. of India website).
As for me, I have this. Note the 1991 census figures cited at the end of the article and if you do the math, you would agree that "three-fourth of the population" is just a whimsical fabrication of some journalist's vivid imagination.
And dont tell me Deccan Herald is partisan. Infact, some of the articles by Frontline/Hindu make a better case for Karnataka than even DH. And if I really loved DH so much, I could have found more articles from DH to use not just here but also on the Kaveri disputes page. Just take a look at a sample of articles,
DH:
[6],
[7],
[8]
FL/Hindu:
[9],
[10],
[11],
and tell me what makes you think DH is partisan. DH is no lottery for me. Infact, if you notice the articles I've edited, you'll see that I use DH mostly when I cant find other sources. Infact, it is no secret that DH is not even my favourite newspaper. Tarun bharat and Pudari, notwithstanding the circulation figures you claim for them, are no better or worse than the average tabloid in content(atleast from the evidence I've seen so far). Also if Tarun Bharat has even half the circulation claimed, it probably just makes an indirect statement that MH's claims of 'insecurity', 'oppression', 'genocide' etc., needs to be treated with the contempt it deserves.
And btw, the 2006 developments section, imo is a joke. I request you to remove it or atleast rewrite it. Or I will rewrite when I find time. But I will be very busy this coming month and infact will soon be going on a wikibreak. So I count on you to retain some sanity on this article esp., when SPAs and ips seem to be back with a vengeance.
Thats all for now. Will write about your other concerns on your talk page when I find time. Sarvagnya 17:57, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Pl share some jokes which u found on 2006 developments? Once again stop blanking information supported by quotes. Sarvabhaum 18:15, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Stop blanking the data. References are provided for everything. Sarvabhaum 06:22, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)
DumZiBoT ( talk) 09:42, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
As an endeavour to make the topic well researched, the new heading 'Historical reference' has been added. This should rest to peace a lot of arguments raised till now about the dispute. If anybody finds the info not to his taste, he should go through the given reference rather than editing it out which'll be not a right thing to do in the light of wiki policies. The reference being a Gazetteer and that too of the Bombay presidency should speak for itself and also be available to concerned parties (I doubt though if Karnataka groups will find it).
Tej smiles ( talk) 12:04, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
User Swapnil may care to add reasons before undoing the abovesaid 'Historical reference' section. One cant remove the material just because the matter doesnt suit his taste. @ Tej, good information.
Spartacusk ( talk) 17:07, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
Historical section seems to be in the eye of storm!! well if the excerpt frm the Gazetteer isnt valid 4 Wikipedia then what is... your day to day Tarun bharat fanciful reports? [even the Gazetteer is the 'Bombay Gazetteer'!!!].. why not discuss it out here rather than removing smethng that hurts ur interests..
Spartacusk ( talk) 17:54, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
'Historical reference' is now 'Boundary Commission's Decision'
Tej smiles ( talk) 17:30, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
[quote] But, in 1956, the Belgaum district was incorporated into the newly formed Mysore state (now Karnataka) with the passage of the States Reorganisation Act, which reorganised India's states along linguistic and administrative lines, despite having a large Marathi-speaking population[2]; about three-fourths (20lakh) of the then total population.[3] [/quote]
Population of Belgaum is around 6 lakh in 2000s. It's incorrect to say there was 20lakh Marathi speaking population then. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chetan tg ( talk • contribs) 19:45, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
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Lokmat refering it as ' Maharashtra Karnataka border conflict', 'Belgaon conflict' or 'Belgaon dispute'. In maharashtra Belgavi called as 'Belgaon' and is its real name. I suggest to change its name or make a redirect by the title, I above mentioned. Source - [ https://www.lokmat.com/maharashtra/police-lathicharge-silent-cycle-rally-belgaum-black-days-today-border-dispute/] Success think ( talk) 06:47, 2 February 2022 (UTC)