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Some criticisms to be confirmed by someone wiser or more erudite:
1. "This battle was the last of Charlemagne's first campaign to capture Spain (...)".
For what I know, it was the only campaign of Charlemagne to Spain. He had been promised the surrender of Barcelona and Saragossa but the leader of this last city was deposed before the Franks could reach it. This frustrated further consolidation of the "Marca Hispanica".
2. "Over the years, this minor battle (...)".
It was no minor battle, though it was indeed an ambush and a guerrilla type battle. The rear-guard was formed by the elite of the Frankish knights and they were all killed causing much "human resources" damage and demoralization to Charlemagne. It was also one of the few defeats of the Emperor, if not the only serious one, hampering also his ambitions south of the Pyrenees, as shown he could only count with the eastern passages as safe ones.
As far as I know, the battle is not featured in the Orlando Furioso, and that reference should probably be taken down. It does appear in another similar work (Pulci's Morgante), though.
Leo_Boon — Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.198.232.120 ( talk) 16:31, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
IIRC, the only historical mention of Roland is the "Vita Caroli Magni" by Einhard, and here the only note is, that during a skirmish in the Pyrenees, "many a paladine of Charlesmagne were killed, among them one Roland of Brittany".
Is there any evidence Roland really was the commander of the unit?
Likewise, I thought Roland died at the end of the Chanson, and Charlesmagne could only retrieve his body.
Can anybody clarify?
Why is there a link to Nafarroa Beherea? Orreaga is in Nafarroa Garaia. Guille 01:10, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Sadly I'll need some days to gather more documentation on this issue and rewrite the article for better. There's much documentation in the battle, mostly from Frankish sources but also some Muslim ones. But, as I say, I need to get first to my father's home to get the right books.
But so far all I can find online is coincident with what I already knew: 1. Date: August 15 778 (at dusk). This is very precise. 2. Charlemagne was in campaign to conquer Zaragoza, whose wali (governor) had betrayed the Muslims (as well as that of Barcelona, not sure if in the same date). The treason was discovered and a new wali appointed. The Franks could only watch the walls of the city and turn back. 3. On his way back, some Muslims (apparently relatives of the traitor governor) atacked the baggage section of the column and rescued the former wali. 4. In Pamplona, Charles decided to pull down the walls of the city. The reason is not clear: either he feared that Muslims could conquer it or he doubted of the loyalty of the Basques. 5. When the column crossed the Pyrenees, presumably at Orreaga (Roncevaux), but this is it's not totally clear, the rearguard, made up of a large number of knights, was ambushed and annihilated. The bulk of the army could only turn back next morning and find the corpses and (I guess) a good number of vultures (aboundant in the Pyrenees).
Other thing that I must check but seem quite clear are: Roland was a relative of Charlemagne, not sure if an in-law or nephew or what exactly and he was likely in command because of his rank. This was a military expediion, not a pleasure voyage.
Legends: we have indeed the Chanson de Roland and we have some Basque myths, maybe influenced by French legends, that assimilate Roland to Sanson and other mythical criatures such as Jentilak, attributing to him some megaliths.
I'll see what can do to improve this article. -- Sugaar 19:18, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
I've revamped the article partly from memory. I'm going in the next hours to get some books to improve and source it. -- Sugaar 10:27, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Revamped and documented now. I think it's much better now. Nevertheless, check please for errors. -- Sugaar 09:10, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Under LEGEND, there is this: "In the tradition, the Basques are replaced by a force of 400,000 Saracens." Uh, really? never heard that legend, where is the citation? . . .that must be, rather, a fanciful exaggeration for no good reason. Cutugno —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cutugno ( talk • contribs) 20:11, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
This article is confusing. Were the Basques Muslim? Why did they fight against the Franks? -- AW 20:54, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Basques were not muslims. Basques were basques, a nation apart from muslims and franks. King Karl became to Zaragoza from Paderborn the 777 year and in 778 year he lost and found thes so called spanish marc. Anyway, the army of king karl when was retiring turned home through the two sides they took to go to Zaragoza. The both sides of the Pirinees. By the side of the basques King Karl, by the side of the city of Tudela, appearently, a coupple of relatives and friends of the former leader of the Zaragoza muslims, the one who went to the court of king karl in 777, gived him freedom through a little combat. King karl was furious and went north entering in the land of the basques and entering their capital, their historical main city: Pamplona (Iruña, in basque, literally, "The city"). So King karl, thinking all was the same, muslims, the ones who "stole" him the muslim in tudela, basques... finally destroyed Pamplona. When it was known by the basques the basques leaders recruited an army to revenge that attack to their city. So in the pass of Orreaga in basque, Roncesvalles in spanish, a hugh and large group of basques were waitin the moment to attack the army of king karl when they were retiring home. That is the real reason to attack the franks. Because of historically, between the former godic kingdom in south ank frank kingdom in north, since the fall of the roman empire, there was always a land of basques, although never was structurated by a king with its court. But. When by any circumstance, like the attack of king karl, they had the cappability to join together in a few days and attack. And disolve themselves through the valleys. So, after the defeat, King karl could not take revenge from basques. Because there were no army to defeat. That victory of the basques in that place made King karl a little bit more angry in his carachter the rest of his life. And we know the victory of basques because it was important. But, finally, one little appointment. Basques never wrote this history. Basques usually never write their own history by written letter. The tradition of basques, usually, is oral tradition. That's the reason to see all europe talking about the battle of Roncesvaux pass without the historiography of basques. But, its important to know the truth. Not the CHanson of roland, wich is completely false, like all that good books of cavallery. History and not tricks, please.
This is written quite poorly, and needs to be considerably revamped. As it stands, it is like stream of consciousness, and more effort should be made to present the information in a clear and methodical manner. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.85.85.193 ( talk) 20:26, 13 October 2007 (UTC) Is Pierre Narbaitz, a nationalist writer, the best source to get a thorough view abaout the battle? His book is quite ludicrous, as well as that where contends Navarra was a basque state.
I intend to (with refs of course) amend that section slightly because it is not quite right. It's right in the sense that the Basques were not Muslims but while Christianity left had appeared in the Basque Lands about the 4th century but did not become the predominant religion until the 12/13th century. Which means that at the very least, the Basque tribes were a Pagan/Christian mix at the time. Just wondering how exactly to word that. Ideas? Akerbeltz ( talk) 23:59, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
"propaganda". Chris Troutman ( talk) 12:30, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
There's Trask and Kasper, posting what Larry Trask says as it's in English and since he is a more eminent Vasconist that Kasper: I is clear that there was a significant Christian presence in the Ebro valley from the fourth century onwards and a bishopric is attested in Pamplona from 589. On the other hand, the Basque heartland in the mountains is devoid of any trace of Christianity before the tenth century: even the bishopric of Bayonne is not attested earlier than that. [...] What evidence we have of Basque religion is evidence for continued paganism and hostility to Christianity. Around 630 or 640 the missionary bishop Amandus (later Saint Amandus) made an attempt to convert the Basques but his mission met nothing but opposition and failure. The famous cemetery of Argiñeta in Elorrio (Bizkaia), generally dated to 883, shows discoidal tombstones [...] with no trace of a cross, [...]. Arab writes not infrequently referred to the Basques as mağūs "wizards, pagans". Consequently, most historians other than Christian apologists have concluded that the Basques of Bizkaia, Gipuzkoa and the French Basque Country did not accept Christianity before the tenth century and in some cases later than that. Akerbeltz ( talk) 17:00, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
I have restored the text after the mention in the lead that the Battle of Roncevaux Pass was later portrayed as a battle between Christians and Muslims to what the lead originally said ("when in fact both sides of the battle were Christian"), with the source it originally had, instead of the text someone had changed it to ("even though it is unlikely that religion was a factor or that significant numbers of Basques had converted to Christianity at the time of the battle"), since I see it as an attempt to imply that the Basque were Muslims, and also can't find anything in the sources given that support it. Like most of the northwestern part of the Iberian peninsula the Basque country was never under Muslim rule, and never converted to Islam, but remained Christians during the entire time most of the rest of Spain was under Muslim rule (during the 8th Century there were also probably quite a few Basque who were still pagans). - Tom | Thomas.W talk 21:01, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
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Why? Please explain otherwise we need to return to consensus version. Asilah1981 ( talk) 17:19, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
Iñaki LL When I refer to Spain, I don't mean that point in time, I mean during history in the centuries afterwards. Elsewhere in Europe, the Chanson de Roland has always been considered to relate a battle between Christians and Moors, not so in Spain. Asilah1981 ( talk) 13:20, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
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This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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|
A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on August 15, 2007, August 15, 2008, August 15, 2009, August 15, 2010, and August 15, 2016. |
Some criticisms to be confirmed by someone wiser or more erudite:
1. "This battle was the last of Charlemagne's first campaign to capture Spain (...)".
For what I know, it was the only campaign of Charlemagne to Spain. He had been promised the surrender of Barcelona and Saragossa but the leader of this last city was deposed before the Franks could reach it. This frustrated further consolidation of the "Marca Hispanica".
2. "Over the years, this minor battle (...)".
It was no minor battle, though it was indeed an ambush and a guerrilla type battle. The rear-guard was formed by the elite of the Frankish knights and they were all killed causing much "human resources" damage and demoralization to Charlemagne. It was also one of the few defeats of the Emperor, if not the only serious one, hampering also his ambitions south of the Pyrenees, as shown he could only count with the eastern passages as safe ones.
As far as I know, the battle is not featured in the Orlando Furioso, and that reference should probably be taken down. It does appear in another similar work (Pulci's Morgante), though.
Leo_Boon — Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.198.232.120 ( talk) 16:31, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
IIRC, the only historical mention of Roland is the "Vita Caroli Magni" by Einhard, and here the only note is, that during a skirmish in the Pyrenees, "many a paladine of Charlesmagne were killed, among them one Roland of Brittany".
Is there any evidence Roland really was the commander of the unit?
Likewise, I thought Roland died at the end of the Chanson, and Charlesmagne could only retrieve his body.
Can anybody clarify?
Why is there a link to Nafarroa Beherea? Orreaga is in Nafarroa Garaia. Guille 01:10, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Sadly I'll need some days to gather more documentation on this issue and rewrite the article for better. There's much documentation in the battle, mostly from Frankish sources but also some Muslim ones. But, as I say, I need to get first to my father's home to get the right books.
But so far all I can find online is coincident with what I already knew: 1. Date: August 15 778 (at dusk). This is very precise. 2. Charlemagne was in campaign to conquer Zaragoza, whose wali (governor) had betrayed the Muslims (as well as that of Barcelona, not sure if in the same date). The treason was discovered and a new wali appointed. The Franks could only watch the walls of the city and turn back. 3. On his way back, some Muslims (apparently relatives of the traitor governor) atacked the baggage section of the column and rescued the former wali. 4. In Pamplona, Charles decided to pull down the walls of the city. The reason is not clear: either he feared that Muslims could conquer it or he doubted of the loyalty of the Basques. 5. When the column crossed the Pyrenees, presumably at Orreaga (Roncevaux), but this is it's not totally clear, the rearguard, made up of a large number of knights, was ambushed and annihilated. The bulk of the army could only turn back next morning and find the corpses and (I guess) a good number of vultures (aboundant in the Pyrenees).
Other thing that I must check but seem quite clear are: Roland was a relative of Charlemagne, not sure if an in-law or nephew or what exactly and he was likely in command because of his rank. This was a military expediion, not a pleasure voyage.
Legends: we have indeed the Chanson de Roland and we have some Basque myths, maybe influenced by French legends, that assimilate Roland to Sanson and other mythical criatures such as Jentilak, attributing to him some megaliths.
I'll see what can do to improve this article. -- Sugaar 19:18, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
I've revamped the article partly from memory. I'm going in the next hours to get some books to improve and source it. -- Sugaar 10:27, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Revamped and documented now. I think it's much better now. Nevertheless, check please for errors. -- Sugaar 09:10, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Under LEGEND, there is this: "In the tradition, the Basques are replaced by a force of 400,000 Saracens." Uh, really? never heard that legend, where is the citation? . . .that must be, rather, a fanciful exaggeration for no good reason. Cutugno —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cutugno ( talk • contribs) 20:11, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
This article is confusing. Were the Basques Muslim? Why did they fight against the Franks? -- AW 20:54, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Basques were not muslims. Basques were basques, a nation apart from muslims and franks. King Karl became to Zaragoza from Paderborn the 777 year and in 778 year he lost and found thes so called spanish marc. Anyway, the army of king karl when was retiring turned home through the two sides they took to go to Zaragoza. The both sides of the Pirinees. By the side of the basques King Karl, by the side of the city of Tudela, appearently, a coupple of relatives and friends of the former leader of the Zaragoza muslims, the one who went to the court of king karl in 777, gived him freedom through a little combat. King karl was furious and went north entering in the land of the basques and entering their capital, their historical main city: Pamplona (Iruña, in basque, literally, "The city"). So King karl, thinking all was the same, muslims, the ones who "stole" him the muslim in tudela, basques... finally destroyed Pamplona. When it was known by the basques the basques leaders recruited an army to revenge that attack to their city. So in the pass of Orreaga in basque, Roncesvalles in spanish, a hugh and large group of basques were waitin the moment to attack the army of king karl when they were retiring home. That is the real reason to attack the franks. Because of historically, between the former godic kingdom in south ank frank kingdom in north, since the fall of the roman empire, there was always a land of basques, although never was structurated by a king with its court. But. When by any circumstance, like the attack of king karl, they had the cappability to join together in a few days and attack. And disolve themselves through the valleys. So, after the defeat, King karl could not take revenge from basques. Because there were no army to defeat. That victory of the basques in that place made King karl a little bit more angry in his carachter the rest of his life. And we know the victory of basques because it was important. But, finally, one little appointment. Basques never wrote this history. Basques usually never write their own history by written letter. The tradition of basques, usually, is oral tradition. That's the reason to see all europe talking about the battle of Roncesvaux pass without the historiography of basques. But, its important to know the truth. Not the CHanson of roland, wich is completely false, like all that good books of cavallery. History and not tricks, please.
This is written quite poorly, and needs to be considerably revamped. As it stands, it is like stream of consciousness, and more effort should be made to present the information in a clear and methodical manner. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.85.85.193 ( talk) 20:26, 13 October 2007 (UTC) Is Pierre Narbaitz, a nationalist writer, the best source to get a thorough view abaout the battle? His book is quite ludicrous, as well as that where contends Navarra was a basque state.
I intend to (with refs of course) amend that section slightly because it is not quite right. It's right in the sense that the Basques were not Muslims but while Christianity left had appeared in the Basque Lands about the 4th century but did not become the predominant religion until the 12/13th century. Which means that at the very least, the Basque tribes were a Pagan/Christian mix at the time. Just wondering how exactly to word that. Ideas? Akerbeltz ( talk) 23:59, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
"propaganda". Chris Troutman ( talk) 12:30, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
There's Trask and Kasper, posting what Larry Trask says as it's in English and since he is a more eminent Vasconist that Kasper: I is clear that there was a significant Christian presence in the Ebro valley from the fourth century onwards and a bishopric is attested in Pamplona from 589. On the other hand, the Basque heartland in the mountains is devoid of any trace of Christianity before the tenth century: even the bishopric of Bayonne is not attested earlier than that. [...] What evidence we have of Basque religion is evidence for continued paganism and hostility to Christianity. Around 630 or 640 the missionary bishop Amandus (later Saint Amandus) made an attempt to convert the Basques but his mission met nothing but opposition and failure. The famous cemetery of Argiñeta in Elorrio (Bizkaia), generally dated to 883, shows discoidal tombstones [...] with no trace of a cross, [...]. Arab writes not infrequently referred to the Basques as mağūs "wizards, pagans". Consequently, most historians other than Christian apologists have concluded that the Basques of Bizkaia, Gipuzkoa and the French Basque Country did not accept Christianity before the tenth century and in some cases later than that. Akerbeltz ( talk) 17:00, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
I have restored the text after the mention in the lead that the Battle of Roncevaux Pass was later portrayed as a battle between Christians and Muslims to what the lead originally said ("when in fact both sides of the battle were Christian"), with the source it originally had, instead of the text someone had changed it to ("even though it is unlikely that religion was a factor or that significant numbers of Basques had converted to Christianity at the time of the battle"), since I see it as an attempt to imply that the Basque were Muslims, and also can't find anything in the sources given that support it. Like most of the northwestern part of the Iberian peninsula the Basque country was never under Muslim rule, and never converted to Islam, but remained Christians during the entire time most of the rest of Spain was under Muslim rule (during the 8th Century there were also probably quite a few Basque who were still pagans). - Tom | Thomas.W talk 21:01, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
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Why? Please explain otherwise we need to return to consensus version. Asilah1981 ( talk) 17:19, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
Iñaki LL When I refer to Spain, I don't mean that point in time, I mean during history in the centuries afterwards. Elsewhere in Europe, the Chanson de Roland has always been considered to relate a battle between Christians and Moors, not so in Spain. Asilah1981 ( talk) 13:20, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
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