A fact from Battle of Corbridge appeared on Wikipedia's
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This ain't a good title. Create two separate articles; name isn't enough to lump two battles together; I even thought you were describing the two encounters of the battle fought in 918 - Calgacus 22:50, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't mind if you're narrowly read in this area. As you say, everyone is narrowly read somewhere. But you seemed to be claiming otherwise, authoratively stating that these forms are never used. You've admitted that this claim was not true, so there is no problem. One of the problems of giving "English" (or rather, modern Anglicized names) is that they are not available for most medieval Gaelic names. So while Máel Coluim can be Malcolm, what on earth does one do with "Máel Snechtai"? And you can't have Malcolm and Máel Snechtai on the same page (both names consist of the same Gael first element, Máel (i.e. "tonsured one" + genitive)). As I've written about more obscure figures in Scottish Gaelic history on wiki, I've discovered that Anglicization is simply not practical; besides, most people who are concerned with guys like Máel Snechtai will recognized and prefer his original name. Ignoring all that, Anglicization is only irregularly applied on wikipedia; a good example is Władysław II Jagiełło. Despite the fact that the man was Lithuanian (I'm not even sure how much Polish he ever learned), he is given his Polish name and title, which are Polonized with letters that do not even exist in English. Jogaila, unlike many Scottish Gaelic figures from the Middle Ages, is famous in English and frequently written about, yet no-one has objected to his absurd title. Henry II is interesting. Norman Davies, for instance, does render him as Henri. This is a little different though. In English historiography, this practice is taken for granted; and at least with Henry II, most of his subjects as King of England were English-speakers, and the names are relatively close; in Scottish historiography, perhaps following their Irish colleagues, it is becoming increasingly unacceptable to use Anglicizations, one of the reasons being is that there is an implication that doing so divorces them misleadingly from their actual culture. In the wiki world, giving Anglicized forms means that these forms proliferate on non-English wikis; the whole situation turns into a nightmare; you get things like "Earl of Moray" on the German wiki for the 11th century rulers of northern Scotland; there's simply no reason to do this in German; Earl was neither the title these rulers took (Mormaer or ri), nor the German equivalent (Graf, Herzog, etc), and English was neither the language of the 11th century Scottish Gaels, nor of modern Germans. Anyways, these are just a few reasons why Anglicizing Gaelic names is no simple matter, and requires much more thought than the "Anglicize Everything" policy. In general, it's more acceptable to anglicize the names of Scottish kings, but not as far as turning Aed into Hugh [as medieval Anglo-Norman latin scribes would do] and a couple of others, but the rest you just give Gaelic names (this is accepted wiki policy); however I personally will never or rarely do even this, for all the reasons mentioned and because it's just crude; it doesn't mean, though, that I'll get into a revert war if you change back Constantine in a page were it doesn't provoke inconsistencies. So you needn't worry that this is a dispute. And another thing, wikipedia is only as popular as each individual article; although the quality of many of the most popular articles is limited by the lowest common denominator of editor, there is little basis for calling many of the other articles "popular" (e.g. the many fine medical articles written and consulted by med. students and doctors; many of the more obscure historical articles; etc ). Have a good evening. - Calgacus 15:09, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
This help request has been answered. If you need more help, you can , contact the responding user(s) directly on their user talk page, or consider visiting the Teahouse. |
There were two Battles of Corbridge in 914 and 918, see [1], but this article is called Battle of Corbridge and is about the 918 one. First Battle of Corbridge and Second Battle of Corbridge both redirect to this article, even though the First Battle is not mentioned. I am inclined to copy and past the text of this article to the Second Battle page (adding a mention of the first battle) and make this article a redirect to the Second Battle. However, I suspect this is against Wiki rules, so how should I deal with the situation? Dudley Miles ( talk) 21:20, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
Downham covers the battle in her book Viking Kings of Britain and Ireland: The Dynasty of Ívarr to A.D. 1014 on pages 91-95, noting the older scholarship of Wainwright, Campbell, and Smyth. She thinks there was likely only one battle, and quotes the modern editor of Historia de Sancto Cuthberto, Johnson-South, who states: the reference to Ragnall’s second victory is extremely cursory ... on the strength of the single word iterum the majority of scholars have supposed that there must have been two battles of Corbridge ... we must consider the possibility that a single battle is being recorded twice here.
McGuigan, in his PhD thesis Neither Scotland nor England: Middle Britain, c.850–1150, agrees with Downham and Woolf. Here's a quick quote from page 40 n. 124: Historia de Sancto Cuthberto simply mentions the battle twice because of two distinct acts of territorial dispossession by its victor (the compiler's main interest), HSC, 58–62: c.22, 24; a modern edition and translation, as well as better use of Irish sources by recent historians, seems to have killed the ‘two battles’ of Corbridge theory"; South, HSC, 105–07, Downham, Viking Kings, 91–94; Woolf, Pictland-Alba, 143–44; see Downham, ibid., 92, n.179 for references to earlier interpretations.
-- Brianann MacAmhlaidh ( talk) 01:11, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
A fact from Battle of Corbridge appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 25 January 2006. The text of the entry was as follows:
|
This article is rated Stub-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This ain't a good title. Create two separate articles; name isn't enough to lump two battles together; I even thought you were describing the two encounters of the battle fought in 918 - Calgacus 22:50, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't mind if you're narrowly read in this area. As you say, everyone is narrowly read somewhere. But you seemed to be claiming otherwise, authoratively stating that these forms are never used. You've admitted that this claim was not true, so there is no problem. One of the problems of giving "English" (or rather, modern Anglicized names) is that they are not available for most medieval Gaelic names. So while Máel Coluim can be Malcolm, what on earth does one do with "Máel Snechtai"? And you can't have Malcolm and Máel Snechtai on the same page (both names consist of the same Gael first element, Máel (i.e. "tonsured one" + genitive)). As I've written about more obscure figures in Scottish Gaelic history on wiki, I've discovered that Anglicization is simply not practical; besides, most people who are concerned with guys like Máel Snechtai will recognized and prefer his original name. Ignoring all that, Anglicization is only irregularly applied on wikipedia; a good example is Władysław II Jagiełło. Despite the fact that the man was Lithuanian (I'm not even sure how much Polish he ever learned), he is given his Polish name and title, which are Polonized with letters that do not even exist in English. Jogaila, unlike many Scottish Gaelic figures from the Middle Ages, is famous in English and frequently written about, yet no-one has objected to his absurd title. Henry II is interesting. Norman Davies, for instance, does render him as Henri. This is a little different though. In English historiography, this practice is taken for granted; and at least with Henry II, most of his subjects as King of England were English-speakers, and the names are relatively close; in Scottish historiography, perhaps following their Irish colleagues, it is becoming increasingly unacceptable to use Anglicizations, one of the reasons being is that there is an implication that doing so divorces them misleadingly from their actual culture. In the wiki world, giving Anglicized forms means that these forms proliferate on non-English wikis; the whole situation turns into a nightmare; you get things like "Earl of Moray" on the German wiki for the 11th century rulers of northern Scotland; there's simply no reason to do this in German; Earl was neither the title these rulers took (Mormaer or ri), nor the German equivalent (Graf, Herzog, etc), and English was neither the language of the 11th century Scottish Gaels, nor of modern Germans. Anyways, these are just a few reasons why Anglicizing Gaelic names is no simple matter, and requires much more thought than the "Anglicize Everything" policy. In general, it's more acceptable to anglicize the names of Scottish kings, but not as far as turning Aed into Hugh [as medieval Anglo-Norman latin scribes would do] and a couple of others, but the rest you just give Gaelic names (this is accepted wiki policy); however I personally will never or rarely do even this, for all the reasons mentioned and because it's just crude; it doesn't mean, though, that I'll get into a revert war if you change back Constantine in a page were it doesn't provoke inconsistencies. So you needn't worry that this is a dispute. And another thing, wikipedia is only as popular as each individual article; although the quality of many of the most popular articles is limited by the lowest common denominator of editor, there is little basis for calling many of the other articles "popular" (e.g. the many fine medical articles written and consulted by med. students and doctors; many of the more obscure historical articles; etc ). Have a good evening. - Calgacus 15:09, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
This help request has been answered. If you need more help, you can , contact the responding user(s) directly on their user talk page, or consider visiting the Teahouse. |
There were two Battles of Corbridge in 914 and 918, see [1], but this article is called Battle of Corbridge and is about the 918 one. First Battle of Corbridge and Second Battle of Corbridge both redirect to this article, even though the First Battle is not mentioned. I am inclined to copy and past the text of this article to the Second Battle page (adding a mention of the first battle) and make this article a redirect to the Second Battle. However, I suspect this is against Wiki rules, so how should I deal with the situation? Dudley Miles ( talk) 21:20, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
Downham covers the battle in her book Viking Kings of Britain and Ireland: The Dynasty of Ívarr to A.D. 1014 on pages 91-95, noting the older scholarship of Wainwright, Campbell, and Smyth. She thinks there was likely only one battle, and quotes the modern editor of Historia de Sancto Cuthberto, Johnson-South, who states: the reference to Ragnall’s second victory is extremely cursory ... on the strength of the single word iterum the majority of scholars have supposed that there must have been two battles of Corbridge ... we must consider the possibility that a single battle is being recorded twice here.
McGuigan, in his PhD thesis Neither Scotland nor England: Middle Britain, c.850–1150, agrees with Downham and Woolf. Here's a quick quote from page 40 n. 124: Historia de Sancto Cuthberto simply mentions the battle twice because of two distinct acts of territorial dispossession by its victor (the compiler's main interest), HSC, 58–62: c.22, 24; a modern edition and translation, as well as better use of Irish sources by recent historians, seems to have killed the ‘two battles’ of Corbridge theory"; South, HSC, 105–07, Downham, Viking Kings, 91–94; Woolf, Pictland-Alba, 143–44; see Downham, ibid., 92, n.179 for references to earlier interpretations.
-- Brianann MacAmhlaidh ( talk) 01:11, 2 September 2016 (UTC)