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This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
See Wikipedia:WikiProject Battles
Merged in main item (see history) except for:
"Thus the five Yorkist peers, the earl of Essex and lords Audley, Dinham, Dudley and Ferriers are not named as being present at any engagement in 1469-71. They did enter London in triumph with Edward IV on 21 May 1471 but they could have joined him only after the fighting was done.
"That they were caught up in the politics of these years is shown by their removal from all commissions during the redemption. Their is therefore a strong presumption that they were known to be favourable towards Edward IV." (p70. The wars of the Roses. AJ Pollard.)
Originally from an article on the lord Dudley.(by Faedra)
Stan 17:18, 11 May 2004 (UTC)
Did Jasper Tudor fight in the Battle of Bosworth Field? "There is no contemporary record that Jasper Tudor, earl of Pembroke, fought at Bosworth... " (The Tudor Nobility. pg 50) Does anyone have counter-evidence? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zirk ( talk • contribs) 16:37, 13 April 2005 (UTC)
Um, what's a "trimmer"? See "The Campaign and its Politics": "The two notorious trimmers in 1469–71 were the young John Talbot, 3rd Earl of Shrewsbury, and the older more experienced Lord Stanley...". Thanks. Her Pegship 19:09, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Doesn't Richard I's death count towards dying in a battle? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.215.135.92 ( talk • contribs) 21:55, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone have a list of the men killed in the Battle of Bosworth 22 August 1485?
I have a 16th great grandfather who I have just learned was killed that day. The information does not include which side he was on and his name is not in any of the lists I have found on the internet.
Several on the surnames listed are also listed as surnames of Bradshaw wives, I am not sure if these surnames are connected to my line. The surnames are on both sides in the Battle.
His name is Ralph Bradshaw, grandson of Roger De Bradshawe and Margaret De Mesnil. He is also a descendent of John Bradshaw, Title: Sir; Saxon Knight of ” The family lineally derived from Sir John Bradshaw, of Bradshaw, a Saxon living at the time of the Conquest, who was reinvested in his estate by the Norman. He married the daughter and sole heir of Sir Robert Remington, knight of Remington and left a son and heir, Sir Robert Bradshaw.”
Your help would be greatly appreciated.
B. Shackel —Preceding unsigned comment added by BShackel ( talk • contribs) 23:58, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Does the fact that this battle was the setting for the first Blackadder episode note merit a mention on this page? I'm happy for it not to be on there, but I'd say it should be there. -- JimmyTheWig 08:31, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
This article needs some images. How does one go about doing that? Can I source images from other websites? ~~T. Servaia~~ June 24th 2006
I have some images from the actual field, taken by myself, but I have some doubts about the usefulness of these images. They're just pictures of hills and the like. Bunceboy November 5th 2006
The article says "Richard of York was the third and last English king to die in battle – Harold Godwinson at Hastings, 1066, killed by the Normans, was the first. Richard III was the second." This doesn't make sense. Who was the second king killed in battle ? 136.153.2.2 07:32, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I wonder whether the fact that Richard the Third was the last English king to die in battle should be mentioned in the first paragraph of this article. Vorbee ( talk) 16:59, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
The phraseology I always heard (admittedly from a Ricardian) was that Richard was the last English king to hazard his throne in the line of battle. The argument was that Charles sent generals but didn't fight. James (II) ran away; and after that no monarch bothered. Simon Cursitor —The preceding signed but undated comment was added at 13:00, August 22, 2007 (UTC).
Isn't the title tautologous? Surely "field" in this context means "battlefield"? It should either be the "Battle of Bosworth" or Bosworth Field. cf Stoke Field or Lose-coat field, of the "field of Agincourt". Cyclopaedic 17:21, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Before my edit the account of Richard's death reads
and cites Bennett as the source. However, Bennett does not say any such thing, and I know of no suggestion that the famous cry is anything other than Shakespeare. Bennett refers to Shakespeare having "access to a tradition that his horse was taken from under him, and he cried out for a replacement." Bennett says there is no account in English of the mnner of his death, Bennett does not mention ap Thomas, but says the probability is he was hacked to death by ordinary Welsh pikemen. Cyclopaedic ( talk) 15:24, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
I am going to rewrite this article in a few days (or weeks perhaps). It would be similar to how Battle of Barnet is written, and again the ultimate aim is to get this article to be featured. Photos and pictures would be added in the process as well. Jappalang ( talk) 09:42, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
"Norfolk was a military veteran, having fought in the Battle of Towton in 1461 and against the Saracens as Hastings' deputy at Calais in 1471.[46]"
I have not read the book cited in [46], but this has to be a typo, or a metaphorical usage in [46]. Surely there cannot have been Saracens at Calais in 1471.
68flapjack ( talk) 20:15, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
I have not read this very carefully—I primarily looked for common MOS pitfalls, and scanned the sourcing.
Overall, this is in great shape. The short-form cites needed only a few tweaks for some missing spaces. Logical quotation was almost consistent and only took a couple fixes. I found no abused hyphens, endashes or emdashes—that might be a record :) Maralia ( talk) 16:12, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
I hate to carp, given that someone has obviously put much effort into them, but in both battlefield maps, the troops on Richard's left wing are marked "Northampton". Nobody called or titles "Northampton" appears anywhere in the text (except in someone's alt. text to the maps), and it is stated that Richard's left or rear battle was commanded by the Earl of Northumberland. HLGallon ( talk) 11:48, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
I am particularly perplexed by the insistence that nowhere in the text was it stated that Henry VII's intended target was London. In the last two paragraphs of the Prelude section, we have "Henry did not move directly towards London. ... The royal army proceeded westwards to intercept Henry's march on London." I do not know how much more explicit we can make it that Henry took an indirect approach towards the English capital. These statements are sourced to Ross's Richard III and Gravett's Bosworth 1485.
Quote pp. 210–211 of Ross:
"Why did he take this much longer and more circuitous route through central Wales, rather than moving directly east from Milford Haven along the south coast of Wales to enter England at Tewkesbury, and then drive east again over the Cotswold Hills to London, the magnet, and the most important prize of all fifteenth-century invaders? It may have been that by going north he hoped to make contact with the main centres of Stanley power in north-east Wales, Cheshire and Lancashire, at least according to Polydore Vergil. [...] A more likely explanation is a testimony to the efficiency of Richard's defensive arrangements, and to the loyalty of the families of Herbert and Vaughan, [...] To enter attempt a direct advance east from Milford was to enter hostile territory, and, indeed, almost as soon as Henry left Milford Haven, there were rumours that Sir Walter Herbert was approaching from Carmathen to attack him with a large force, ..."
Quote p. 45 of Gravett:
Richard presumably marched towards Leicester forest down the Roman road to Watling Street, in order to block Henry's route to London."
Reliable sources are given for these statements. The lede is a summarised version of the article, which states Henry's goal was London. So what is the issue? Jappalang ( talk) 04:47, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
With the arrival of Rhy's arrival Henry could continue the march into England with less apprehension, and reached Shrewsbury on 17 August. In the meantime he had sent secret messages to his mother Margaret, and Lord Stanley and his brother Sir Gilbert Talbot, and others, intimating his intension to cross the Severn, penetrate into Shropshire, and, if possible, advance towards London.
After passing through Aberystwyth and Macynlleth, the pretender arrived on 15 August at Shrewsbury, which refused to admit him ofr a day. ... Yet the Stanleys were notorious for hedging their bets: in 1459 Lord Stanley had almost been impeached for his failure to support the Lancastrians at Blore Heath. In an effort to persuade the Stanleys to commit themselves, Henry addressed several anxious letters to his mother and her husband in which he divulged his plan to cross the Severn and march with all possible speed towards London. Although the Stanleys were, as usual, determined to be on the winning side, whichever that might be, Sir William arrived for a private talk with Henry after he reached Stafford on 17 August.
The BBC [2] has accurate information on the actual site of the battle. Please update accordingly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.7.24.212 ( talk) 06:51, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
It seems that Foard now reckons the site to be 2 miles south-west of the visitor centre, following the conclusions of the latest research. Ning-ning ( talk) 09:05, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
(od) It appears what's been found is 19 items of artillery shot, most made of stone covered in lead, between 23 mm and 65 mm diameter, with one ball at 93 mm and weighing 7.2 kilos. These appear to have been fired from 6 to 12 artillery pieces in two positions. 3 items of handgun shot. A number of fragments of swords, bridles and spurs. A provisional identification of the marsh was rejected when it was found that it had dried up in Roman times, but a second marsh has now been found which appears to correspond with the required damp spot. The archaeologists' ambitions for this data not only include a shifting of the battlefield to a completely new location, but an elevation of its technical significance. What's odd are these shot covered in lead. A catalogue of most of the stone shot found around Ambion (probably about a dozen, including one found on top of the hill by the Warden) doesn't mention one covered in lead. Report's supposed to be published next year- interpretation of the finds probably about 5-10 years. Ning-ning ( talk) 07:44, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
I have made a change that should be acceptable to everyone. It preserves almost entirely the old narrative of the battle while making clear that it's...well, wrong. Lampman ( talk) 13:50, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) Well-known information or not, it is not Wikipedia's policy to accord something that has not gained significant weight (by volume of reliable third-party sources) per WP:UNDUE. The recent edits portrays the event more than it is due and in a manner that is not encylopaedic but more of journalism (see WP:RECENTISM). For example, would someone kindly please explain why we (re-)insert the following paragraph at the end of the article:
when Foard's work has already been detailed in the opening paragraph of the last sub-section:
The insert suffers from the repetition of Foard's credentials and role, as well as the recentism tone; who cares what date the announcement was made, it would be the period of their work, and the final acceptance of their work that would matter in years to come. Furthermore, ignoring the typos, the insert breaks the flow of the sub-section, and the citation, aside from being a double-mention of one used earlier, is inconsistent with the others. It was brought up that the announcement has to be mentioned for FA quality to be mentained, but such inserts are contrary to the FA criteria 1(a), 2(b) and 2(c): prose, structure, and citation style ( WP:WIAFA). Writing FAs are not simply inserting stand-alone sections of text as I had mentioned before, which is why I requested an effort to work together on the talk pages before integrating them into the article. If no reasonable explanation can be given for the insert, I will be bold in removing it. There is no point for it when we already have a more detailed statement that opens the section of the battlefield's location. As for the Engagement sections, the following statement can be inserted before "As Henry's army advanced past the marsh at the southwestern foot of the hill ...".
This statement can be sourced to Ross, Chrimes, and Gravett (in fact, any reliable source on Bosworth). It serves to further explicitly state that the location given in that section is based on scholarly research. If that is acceptable, we can work it in. Jappalang ( talk) 14:14, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
I didn't want to take this up at first, but there were issues about the authority of the current version even before the recent discoveries. The version presented as the current historical consensus is really no such thing. The authorities used for the battle are partly very old; Mackie (1952), Rowse (1966), Chrimes (1972) and Ross (1974). Chrimes and Ross both died in 1986, so the 1997 and 1999 versions of their books were reprints, not revisions by the authors. The same is the case with Mackie, who died five years before the 1983 version of his book was printed. Furthermore, writers like Mackie, Chrimes, Ross and Horrox are primarily political, and not military historians. For this reason they had to rely heavily on even older works, in the case of Chrimes and Ross, Gairdner's article "The Battle of Bosworth" from 1896 and Hutton's book The Battle of Bosworth Field from 1788! Horrox, meanwhile, barely mentions military matters at all, and when she does relies primarily on Bennett's The Battle of Bosworth from 1985, which – strangely – is not even mentioned in the article. Gravett takes more of a military angle, but he does not have the same academic credentials as the other (he does not have a Ph.D., and is not attached to any academic institution.) Rowse 1966 book is perhaps the least reliable; he published around a hundred books on various subjects, but was primarily an Elizabethan historian.
In any case, there was never any consensus on the battle even when these works were written, much less by the time this article was made. Chrimes writes: "Many attempts have been made to reconstruct in detail what exactly happened at the battle of Bosworth, but mostly in vain." (p. 46) Likewise Ross: "There have been almost as many different accounts of the battle of Bosworth as there have been historians." (p. 216) The official battlefield site presents both Danny Williams' 1974 Ambion Hill theory, Peter Foss' 1985 Redesmore theory and Michael K. Jones' 2002 Atterton theory. While the pre-1985 authorities naturally lay closer to Williams' account (see map in Ross, p. 219), the article reflects Foss' theory, which was also the official battlefield site up until recently. Thus we see that the article does not even agree with the authorities that have been claimed here to support it!
As I have said repeatedly, this is not the time to rewrite the article with speculations about how the battle might have taken place. What concerns me is the fact that the article currently presents one version of the event as definitive, while it was always highly disputed, and is now almost certainly wrong. This fact needs to be prominently featured in the article, not buried away in a inferior section, otherwise it clearly fails 1c of the Featured article criteria. (PS. Certain changes have been made since I started writing this, but though this points in the right direction, it is far from enough.) Lampman ( talk) 16:31, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
The report by Foard is expected to be released in February 2010, or at least the location of the site where the items were found will be revealed. There are three parts to this survey; examination of the soils and the geography to reconstruct the old landscape, examination of the historical documents for placenames and fieldnames, and the fieldwork with the metal detectors. There doesn't seem to be at the moment one complete source for all the information that's "leaked" out to the press. The whole area's a flat plain between small hills; it may be that the discovery of the "site" will turn out in the end to be less important than the discovery of the ammunition. Seems to me that a separate article would be a good solution, with lower standards :) than this FA. Ning-ning ( talk) 08:09, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
User:Jorwar would like to include a sentence indicating that Henry was born in Pembroke. Unfortunately repeated attempts to include this info are being reverted-partly because no reference has been provided. Jorwar's latest edit summary refers to the page for Henry VII, where his birthplace is mentioned in the info box only- without a reference. Ning-ning ( talk) 15:59, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
Is there any doubt that Henry was born in pembroke caste in 1457? All history books I've read on the subject concur. That Pembrokeshire was chosen for his landing in 1485 is at least an interesting fact for the reader and possible one for discussion. (Nowhere in the article is his place of birth mentioned.) He spent the first 14 years of his life in the region so probably knew it and its people quite well. ( Jorwar ( talk) 19:26, 16 November 2009 (UTC))
The thrust of this article as previously stated is a general overview without going too much into details. Thus, mentions of the name of Richard's steed and a list of names of his knights might be excessive, hence this reversion. The fates of Catesby, Ratcliffe, and Lovell might be summarised in Post-battle (not Engagement where the "battle is still ongoing" and that they are not mentioned in significance before this battle) due to their positions as Richard's cohorts (the cat, the rat, and the dog under the hog), but even then I am not too certain of their notability. The rest, however, do not seem to be of significance to this battle. Jappalang ( talk) 09:04, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
The section "Background" contains material that could better be placed in the entries on the Duke of Gloucester / Richard III and on Henry Tudor / Heny VII. Some of the material seems to be based uncritically on Tudor propaganda, e.g. there is no certainty about what happened to the Princes in the Tower. ¬¬¬¬ —Preceding unsigned comment added by J.C. Rigg ( talk • contribs) 15:53, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
The fairly contemporary sources could better be treated separately rather than in a section "Legacy". Not mentioned are the compensations by Henry VII to Merevale, Atherstone, Mancetter, Witherley, Atterton and Fenny Drayton. John D. Austin (Merevale and Atherstone: 1485; recent Bosworth discoveries, Friends of Atherstone Heritage, 2004, p.2-6) reconstructs the movements of Henry on the basis of this contemporary evidence. His reconstruction is close to that of M.K. Jones (Bosworth: 1485; psychology of a battle, Tempus, 2002) but relies also on detailed knowledge of the local area. Neither of these sources is discussed in the present Wikipedia article. There are now two physical items of evidence: firstly Dadlington Church and graves, presumably mainly from Henry;s army; secondly the finds in an area south of Upton from the recent archaeological survey.
Another source of evidence is local place-names, past and present. Redemore, on grounds of analous Leicestershire place-names, probably means 'Road Moor' rather than 'Reed Moor'. According to J. Nichols (The history and antiquities of the County of Leicestershire, 1811), Henry marched to battle along the Redway, which was the prehistoric road from Edgehill through Coventry to Derby, passing through Fenny Drayton to Atterton and Sibson. This means that the munition residues found could be from Henry's army.
On names too, King Richard's Hole (originally probably Halgh, meaning lowland by a river) at the confluence of the Sence with the Anker at the Mythe in Sheepy parish is evidence that Richard spent his last night with his ally Sir Humphrey Stafford at Mythe Hall,then a considerable fortress, reckoning on facing Henry across the River Anker. Henry probably moved along the Redway to Atterton and Upton during the previous night, so that Richard was facing into the morning sun, as pointed out by Jones and Austin.
The local evidence is against most identifications of Sandeford, where Richard was killed. The only sandy ford on the slow-flowing River Saint or Tweed is where the river crosses Upton Ridge, namely Miles Ford south of Wellsborough Hill, which is probably the 'mountaine full high' to which Sir William Stanley removed according to Bosworth Feilde ballad. Even allowing for any exaggeration in the ballad, the 'dale' or 'plaine' can only be that nearer the confluences of the Saint, the Sence and the Anker. In that area, Richard, on arrival from Leicester, would be in sight of both Wellsborough Hill and Merevale Abbey. Christopher Rigg —Preceding unsigned comment added by J.C. Rigg ( talk • contribs) 16:52, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Again and again, I have to wonder if people really read the whole instead of jumping in on recentism. The BBC newspiece ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/leicestershire/8523386.stm) is already a source in the article and need not be formatted as a new source. What the heck is "Walker, Bob (28 October 2009). "New Battle over Bosworth's Site". BBC Radio 5 Live (United Kingdom: BBC). Retrieved 29 October 2009." under Online sources?! Would anyone bother to check through the article before constantly re-inserting the same darn thing under another different format? Featured articles require consistency in its cites and certainly not to spam out the same source many times differently ( WP:WIAFA). Information in the lede also do not need to be cited if it is already sourced in the main body (unless it is extremely controversial or is a quote per WP:LEDE); the lede is a summary after all. Furthermore, as stated in previous sections, until academic circles or an authorative body (such as English Heritage) affirm Foard's finding, we go with what is official; i.e. the Heritage's designation of a wide swath of land (centralised co-ordinates) as possible areas of the battle. Jappalang ( talk) 20:44, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
Have any historians commented on this?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article7032790.ece
Thanks. Bill the Cat 7 ( talk) 18:42, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
Removed 'penultimate,' which means second-from-last, not 'biggest,' as it was apparently used in the article. The Battle of Bosworth field was the last battle of the Wars of the Roses. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.99.32.120 ( talk) 02:57, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
'penultimate' could be replaced with 'ultimate'. Either that or the Battle of Stoke should be mentioned as the ultimate battle. At the moment the text looks wrong.
anonymous newbie
Some reference should be made to the works of recent scholars who point out that there were reports of sightings of the princes in the Tower after Henry Tudor came to the throne and that since the princes had been declared illegitimate they were more of a threat to Henry than they would have been to Richard. After all, if they were illegitimate, so was their sister, Elizabeth of York, and Henry would not gain anything by marrying her, but if she was legitimate, so were they and Edward of York would be the true king of England, not Henry Tudor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.239.152.174 ( talk) 06:07, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
"penultimate battle"? What was the final battle then? Penultimate means second to the end, not the end. Unless there was another battle, maybe this should be called the 'final battle'. (posted by an anonymous newbie) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.40.218.20 ( talk) 08:11, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
I integrated the supplied ref from this addition into the article's reference system and moved it all from the lede to "Prelude". If it's significant enough there could still be a shorter mention, without Dr Thomas's quotes, in the lede.
Does the direct quote from the source contravene WP:NPS, or is it within the guideline?
-- Old Moonraker ( talk) 06:17, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
Far as I understand the argument, some Welsh poems burble on about Henry championing the Welsh. The argument about history being written by the victors is specious, since the "Welsh" Henry was the victor. Might as well argue that some French poetry should be included, because of the significant French contribution. Ning-ning ( talk) 23:28, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
(To Llywelyn2000) Au contraire, as stated, they did examine primary sources (examining the ballads, army figures, levies, pre- and post-battle letters) and as stated found that the general Welsh populace at that time did not fully support Henry before Bosworth and that he did not champion a Welsh cause. However odd it may be, their findings are the accepted view worldwide among scholars (as illustrated again by the cites to material by Chrimes and the others). Please read carefully their writings. Melding is not even English. He is Welsh. "History is written by the victors": well, Henry did win, so he wrote the histories of Tudor England, did he not? So there would be a Welsh view in the chronicles then. As for me, my nationality is plainly stated on my user page. My aim here is to write, in accordance with policies and guidelines, quality articles that interest me. Promoting a niche viewpoint and claiming it is of some weight to challenge or overturn a scholastic view accepted worldwide simply falls foul of those rules. Jappalang ( talk) 01:02, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
please do not act hastily in deleting things you havent read. PMK indeed wrote this, and i am in the process of finding the page # in the biography. you could move it anywhere, but why delete variable info? appalling seeing many allison weir references, btw. 70.15.169.17 ( talk) 05:54, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
typed it under legacy section. ill add the page reference when i can find it. good day. 70.15.169.17 ( talk) 06:00, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
might be in another book ive mistaken for the bio. took you 43 mins to peruse a book of over 500 pages. yr fast my friend, yr fast. 70.15.169.17 ( talk) 07:56, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
i think you just believe the statement to be partisan and as such, violate the supossed "neutrality" of the article. to have a "featured article" based plurally on allison weir quotes and information sickens me. there must be some retarded hierarchy i am not aware of. 70.15.169.17 ( talk) 07:58, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
sorry yr highness, excuse my grave error in a page full of blatant and latent inadequacies. cheers. funny, on another page i tried to add a KG post-nominal to an individual and i was told, full stop, that it was anachronistic to do so for people in the middle ages. this, i found out, to be true. still, there are countless individuals that retain the letters in their titles. do me a favor and fix those, almighty god of internet information. moonrake you to hell, i will. hahaha. bond, dave bond. 70.15.169.17 ( talk) 10:01, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
also, in this same article, some time ago I added the true commander of the Lancasters-John de Vere, and was refused justification as to why it had been removed. tudor was a hack and never led an army in person. i see he was the leader of the army, but not the vanguard commander. the article even states such. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.15.169.17 ( talk) 10:04, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
you are familiar with me by this point, but my points are being ignored by the registered members, whose allegiances i am questionable of. it is said by numerous authors that he only charged tudor with his household knights and their squires. rolls from the time state he had anywhere from 20-25 household knights and their customary squires. most sources point to the number being no more than 100 that took with him in death's shadow. he is said to have excused common soldiers and only summoned his bodyguard because of the obvious danger. i know the records are scarce, but 800 is an absolutely proposterous number. please fix. 70.15.169.17 ( talk) 05:21, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
im sure yr tired of hearing my mention kendall (mostly because most modern readers somehow view his material as being outdated), but he states this. it is mentioned universally that he led his household knights into a fatal charge. can a man have 800 household knights and squires. this wasnt nero or any image-obsessed ruler of antiquity, this was a simple man who inherited the throne under extraordinary circumstances. 70.15.169.17 ( talk) 08:26, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
i like what you did there, sir. very journalistic and broad, but it asks the common man to question such a number. i am using the average number a later middle ages monarch would have in his retinue, 20-25 in peacetime. during wartime it was different and the number swell as numbers were added (mainly HYW). anyways, thanks for appending it. as for the quotation in kendall: look on page 441 "at the head of less than a hundred men, the King of England, his golden crown flashing on his helmet, was charging the mass of the enemy reserve." this is the 1983 renewal copyright, i believe. i am american, perhaps you have a british version? to further elaborate, this version has the famous portrait of richard slightly altered, with a panorama of lads and ladies behind him. you do a grave disservice to people if you allow material not to be checked. misinformation is killing this generation just as much as devolution of language and culture. ill be damned if i cannot elocute the truth to mongrels. 70.15.169.17 ( talk) 10:06, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
I just deleted the following sentence: "Except for those in the north, the people of England firmly believed that Richard, the "tyrant",[citing Lander p 327] had murdered his nephews.[citing Ross p 104]" Ross doesn't actually say that; in fact, he implies the exact opposite, that only in "the southern and western counties of England" did these rumors sway large numbers of people, and that "the rest of the country seems to have been untroubled by such sentiments." Other historians make clear that even for years after Bosworth there was no consensus ("firmly believed" or otherwise) on the fate of the princes, and in fact Perkin Warbeck spent several years successfully claiming to be Richard of Shrewsbury. DCB4W ( talk) 21:11, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
This contribution by IP removed from article Note * - this point is disputable. Jasper Tudor was an experienced soldier, and the various Lancastrian enclaves in Brittany and France were reported at the time as armed camps; so it is difficult to believe that Henry - as a young nobleman - did not get military training aimed at fitting him to be a Commander in-the-field. Furthermore, we know from French sources that in early-1485 Henry led a combined force of his Lancastrians and French troops loaned by the Regent of France, - Princess Anne de Beaujeu,- to raise the siege of Hammes Castle near Calais, after the garrison had declared for him, and Richard III had ordered the Constable Of Calais to invest the castle and return the garrison to it's proper Allegiance. Directly after that incident,in return for the loan of those French forces which had been on their way back from Flanders, the French Regent prevailed upon Henry to lead his Lancastrians in support of some other military operations of her own. Therefore, looking at the timeline, one should consider in the light of the marked foregoing statement,that Henry had spent 14 years living in an armed encampment which was in a constant state of high alert against fears of kidnap and-or assassination, - being trained almost-daily in the arts of war, and had already led his Lancastrians into combat himself on at least two deployments, even before the Battle of Bosworth. Added to these facts, consideration should be given to his activities during the first 12 years of his Reign, during which contemporary commentators note him as an accomplished Jouster, archer, and huntsman with the boar spear; besides leading an invasion of France in person, in support of Brittany in 1492; and leading his forces to put down the armed Risings for Lambert Simnel and Perkin Warbeck. In my opinion, it is therefore unsafe to assume that Henry was lacking in military training and military ability."
I haven't removed them yet but the Coats of Arms shown for the Duke of Norfolk and Earl of Surrey as leaders of the Yorkists are incorrect. They are the Howard arms but show the Flodden agumentation awarded to Surrey (then 2nd Duke of Norfolk) after the Battle of Flodden. Since this was almost 30 years after Bosworth the relevent arms should be the Howard arms without the augmentation. In addition, Surrey's arms should have a mark of difference e.g. a label of three points since othrwise he would be carrying the same arms as his father which is contrary to the laws of heraldry. Jwasanders ( talk) 11:25, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
The Background section contains this sentence:
My understanding is that Richard II legitimized them and that Henry IV confirmed that but added that they were not eligible for the throne. Is that sentence mistaken? Could it be written clearer? Bill the Cat 7 ( talk) 17:25, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
Is there any doubt left about the location of the battle? It seems to me that the exact spot has been proven. I'll go ahead and add that in sometime in the near future unless there are strong objections. Bill the Cat 7 ( talk) 12:21, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
According to The Guardian in March 2015:
Looks pretty conclusive to me, they don't say "might have" or anything. They sound pretty sure and they're probably not in the habit of making flat-out statements like that if they don't have pretty good reason. If this is true, it's not service to the reader to indicate that the location is not known. Herostratus ( talk) 10:49, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
The Guardian newspaper and it's journalists are not authorities on matters relating to history and archaeology. John2o2o2o ( talk) 21:20, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
The Oxford English Dictionary's definition of "field" in this context is: "The ground on which a battle is fought; a battlefield." Amongst many others (incuding Shakespeare) it quotes the Old English poem The Battle of Maldon: Wearð her on felda folc totwæmed, scyldburh tobrocen. and John Gower's Middle English Confessio Amantis: Thei setten day, thei chosen field, The knihtes coevered under Schield Togedre come at time set. It seems clear that the correct name for the battle is therefore either "the Battle of Bosworth" or "Bosworth Field". Calling it "the Battle of Bosworth Field" is tautological and incorrect, albeit widely used. Fillthemill ( talk) 13:17, 26 March 2015 (UTC)fillthemill
Moving this article would be a controversial move, so use the WP:RM process and present you evidence based on reliable sources ( UCRN), per Paul Barlow. -- PBS ( talk) 18:44, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
I have read several accounts that Henry hid himself among his pikemen and his welsh body guards during Richard's charge. Some of the French mercenaries involved in the battle say that Henry refused to engage in combat personally. According to the same source, Lancastrian soldiers in close proximity to the King heard him refuse an offer to flee when Stanley's men closed in, proclaiming to his men he will fight to the death. I think this is worthy of mention in the article if there are no objections. Dapi89 ( talk) 20:54, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
The article states that 30 ships brought Henry and the others to Milford Haven. The Wikipedia article for George Bissipat gives the number of seven. I've been told the Wikipedia article corresponds to a history of the French navy, but I've never seen such a history. Based on the type of ships, however, it is quite possible that each ship carried 400-500 men, which would make seven ships quite possible. (For some reason, the page won't allow the Wikipedia page for George Bissipat to be linked, but you can find it by googling George Bissipat.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.95.1.238 ( talk) 22:09, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
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I am not sure that the opening statement "The Battle of Bosworth Field (or Battle of Bosworth) was the last significant battle of the Wars of the Roses" is entirely fair. Though Bosworth was indeed the last battle to result in a change of ruling house, it was not clear at the time this was the case (especially as the Tudors had revived the Lancastrain claim after the defeat and death of all the notable Lancastrians in 1471), and there were later attempts to restore a Yorkist to the throne, which involved some fighting. While the majority of these were arguably not serious threats, the Battle of Stoke Field two years later is significant. The article on the battle notes that "Though it is often portrayed as almost a footnote to the major battles between York and Lancaster, it may have been slightly larger than Bosworth, with much heavier casualties". The battle represented a serious threat to the Tudor dynasty as the Yorkists were supposedly fighting to restore Edward of Warwick, a direct male line descendant of Richard of York. While the "Edward" they had was an impostor, he had been crowned Edward VI in Ireland and if the battle had been won the real Edward, whom Henry VII viewed as a serious threat, could have been put on the throne if not killed. Alternately, John de la Pole, 1st Earl of Lincoln who died fighting at Stoke Field, had been named heir by Richard and had a strong claim to the crown (and arguably was the only serious adult male Yorkist claimant still alive). The elimination of the false Warwick and the death of Lincoln and the deaths or disappearance of other leading Yorkists, notably Francis Lovell, 1st Viscount Lovell arguably marked the point of no return for the Yorkists. So in terms of outcome and loss of life Stoke Field was significant, making it difficult to justify saying that "was the last significant" battle in the conflict. Dunarc ( talk) 19:04, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
Can this be added to Category:Deaths and funerals of British royalty? Darrelljon ( talk) 03:39, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
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This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
See Wikipedia:WikiProject Battles
Merged in main item (see history) except for:
"Thus the five Yorkist peers, the earl of Essex and lords Audley, Dinham, Dudley and Ferriers are not named as being present at any engagement in 1469-71. They did enter London in triumph with Edward IV on 21 May 1471 but they could have joined him only after the fighting was done.
"That they were caught up in the politics of these years is shown by their removal from all commissions during the redemption. Their is therefore a strong presumption that they were known to be favourable towards Edward IV." (p70. The wars of the Roses. AJ Pollard.)
Originally from an article on the lord Dudley.(by Faedra)
Stan 17:18, 11 May 2004 (UTC)
Did Jasper Tudor fight in the Battle of Bosworth Field? "There is no contemporary record that Jasper Tudor, earl of Pembroke, fought at Bosworth... " (The Tudor Nobility. pg 50) Does anyone have counter-evidence? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zirk ( talk • contribs) 16:37, 13 April 2005 (UTC)
Um, what's a "trimmer"? See "The Campaign and its Politics": "The two notorious trimmers in 1469–71 were the young John Talbot, 3rd Earl of Shrewsbury, and the older more experienced Lord Stanley...". Thanks. Her Pegship 19:09, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Doesn't Richard I's death count towards dying in a battle? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.215.135.92 ( talk • contribs) 21:55, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone have a list of the men killed in the Battle of Bosworth 22 August 1485?
I have a 16th great grandfather who I have just learned was killed that day. The information does not include which side he was on and his name is not in any of the lists I have found on the internet.
Several on the surnames listed are also listed as surnames of Bradshaw wives, I am not sure if these surnames are connected to my line. The surnames are on both sides in the Battle.
His name is Ralph Bradshaw, grandson of Roger De Bradshawe and Margaret De Mesnil. He is also a descendent of John Bradshaw, Title: Sir; Saxon Knight of ” The family lineally derived from Sir John Bradshaw, of Bradshaw, a Saxon living at the time of the Conquest, who was reinvested in his estate by the Norman. He married the daughter and sole heir of Sir Robert Remington, knight of Remington and left a son and heir, Sir Robert Bradshaw.”
Your help would be greatly appreciated.
B. Shackel —Preceding unsigned comment added by BShackel ( talk • contribs) 23:58, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Does the fact that this battle was the setting for the first Blackadder episode note merit a mention on this page? I'm happy for it not to be on there, but I'd say it should be there. -- JimmyTheWig 08:31, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
This article needs some images. How does one go about doing that? Can I source images from other websites? ~~T. Servaia~~ June 24th 2006
I have some images from the actual field, taken by myself, but I have some doubts about the usefulness of these images. They're just pictures of hills and the like. Bunceboy November 5th 2006
The article says "Richard of York was the third and last English king to die in battle – Harold Godwinson at Hastings, 1066, killed by the Normans, was the first. Richard III was the second." This doesn't make sense. Who was the second king killed in battle ? 136.153.2.2 07:32, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
I wonder whether the fact that Richard the Third was the last English king to die in battle should be mentioned in the first paragraph of this article. Vorbee ( talk) 16:59, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
The phraseology I always heard (admittedly from a Ricardian) was that Richard was the last English king to hazard his throne in the line of battle. The argument was that Charles sent generals but didn't fight. James (II) ran away; and after that no monarch bothered. Simon Cursitor —The preceding signed but undated comment was added at 13:00, August 22, 2007 (UTC).
Isn't the title tautologous? Surely "field" in this context means "battlefield"? It should either be the "Battle of Bosworth" or Bosworth Field. cf Stoke Field or Lose-coat field, of the "field of Agincourt". Cyclopaedic 17:21, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Before my edit the account of Richard's death reads
and cites Bennett as the source. However, Bennett does not say any such thing, and I know of no suggestion that the famous cry is anything other than Shakespeare. Bennett refers to Shakespeare having "access to a tradition that his horse was taken from under him, and he cried out for a replacement." Bennett says there is no account in English of the mnner of his death, Bennett does not mention ap Thomas, but says the probability is he was hacked to death by ordinary Welsh pikemen. Cyclopaedic ( talk) 15:24, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
I am going to rewrite this article in a few days (or weeks perhaps). It would be similar to how Battle of Barnet is written, and again the ultimate aim is to get this article to be featured. Photos and pictures would be added in the process as well. Jappalang ( talk) 09:42, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
"Norfolk was a military veteran, having fought in the Battle of Towton in 1461 and against the Saracens as Hastings' deputy at Calais in 1471.[46]"
I have not read the book cited in [46], but this has to be a typo, or a metaphorical usage in [46]. Surely there cannot have been Saracens at Calais in 1471.
68flapjack ( talk) 20:15, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
I have not read this very carefully—I primarily looked for common MOS pitfalls, and scanned the sourcing.
Overall, this is in great shape. The short-form cites needed only a few tweaks for some missing spaces. Logical quotation was almost consistent and only took a couple fixes. I found no abused hyphens, endashes or emdashes—that might be a record :) Maralia ( talk) 16:12, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
I hate to carp, given that someone has obviously put much effort into them, but in both battlefield maps, the troops on Richard's left wing are marked "Northampton". Nobody called or titles "Northampton" appears anywhere in the text (except in someone's alt. text to the maps), and it is stated that Richard's left or rear battle was commanded by the Earl of Northumberland. HLGallon ( talk) 11:48, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
I am particularly perplexed by the insistence that nowhere in the text was it stated that Henry VII's intended target was London. In the last two paragraphs of the Prelude section, we have "Henry did not move directly towards London. ... The royal army proceeded westwards to intercept Henry's march on London." I do not know how much more explicit we can make it that Henry took an indirect approach towards the English capital. These statements are sourced to Ross's Richard III and Gravett's Bosworth 1485.
Quote pp. 210–211 of Ross:
"Why did he take this much longer and more circuitous route through central Wales, rather than moving directly east from Milford Haven along the south coast of Wales to enter England at Tewkesbury, and then drive east again over the Cotswold Hills to London, the magnet, and the most important prize of all fifteenth-century invaders? It may have been that by going north he hoped to make contact with the main centres of Stanley power in north-east Wales, Cheshire and Lancashire, at least according to Polydore Vergil. [...] A more likely explanation is a testimony to the efficiency of Richard's defensive arrangements, and to the loyalty of the families of Herbert and Vaughan, [...] To enter attempt a direct advance east from Milford was to enter hostile territory, and, indeed, almost as soon as Henry left Milford Haven, there were rumours that Sir Walter Herbert was approaching from Carmathen to attack him with a large force, ..."
Quote p. 45 of Gravett:
Richard presumably marched towards Leicester forest down the Roman road to Watling Street, in order to block Henry's route to London."
Reliable sources are given for these statements. The lede is a summarised version of the article, which states Henry's goal was London. So what is the issue? Jappalang ( talk) 04:47, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
With the arrival of Rhy's arrival Henry could continue the march into England with less apprehension, and reached Shrewsbury on 17 August. In the meantime he had sent secret messages to his mother Margaret, and Lord Stanley and his brother Sir Gilbert Talbot, and others, intimating his intension to cross the Severn, penetrate into Shropshire, and, if possible, advance towards London.
After passing through Aberystwyth and Macynlleth, the pretender arrived on 15 August at Shrewsbury, which refused to admit him ofr a day. ... Yet the Stanleys were notorious for hedging their bets: in 1459 Lord Stanley had almost been impeached for his failure to support the Lancastrians at Blore Heath. In an effort to persuade the Stanleys to commit themselves, Henry addressed several anxious letters to his mother and her husband in which he divulged his plan to cross the Severn and march with all possible speed towards London. Although the Stanleys were, as usual, determined to be on the winning side, whichever that might be, Sir William arrived for a private talk with Henry after he reached Stafford on 17 August.
The BBC [2] has accurate information on the actual site of the battle. Please update accordingly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.7.24.212 ( talk) 06:51, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
It seems that Foard now reckons the site to be 2 miles south-west of the visitor centre, following the conclusions of the latest research. Ning-ning ( talk) 09:05, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
(od) It appears what's been found is 19 items of artillery shot, most made of stone covered in lead, between 23 mm and 65 mm diameter, with one ball at 93 mm and weighing 7.2 kilos. These appear to have been fired from 6 to 12 artillery pieces in two positions. 3 items of handgun shot. A number of fragments of swords, bridles and spurs. A provisional identification of the marsh was rejected when it was found that it had dried up in Roman times, but a second marsh has now been found which appears to correspond with the required damp spot. The archaeologists' ambitions for this data not only include a shifting of the battlefield to a completely new location, but an elevation of its technical significance. What's odd are these shot covered in lead. A catalogue of most of the stone shot found around Ambion (probably about a dozen, including one found on top of the hill by the Warden) doesn't mention one covered in lead. Report's supposed to be published next year- interpretation of the finds probably about 5-10 years. Ning-ning ( talk) 07:44, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
I have made a change that should be acceptable to everyone. It preserves almost entirely the old narrative of the battle while making clear that it's...well, wrong. Lampman ( talk) 13:50, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) Well-known information or not, it is not Wikipedia's policy to accord something that has not gained significant weight (by volume of reliable third-party sources) per WP:UNDUE. The recent edits portrays the event more than it is due and in a manner that is not encylopaedic but more of journalism (see WP:RECENTISM). For example, would someone kindly please explain why we (re-)insert the following paragraph at the end of the article:
when Foard's work has already been detailed in the opening paragraph of the last sub-section:
The insert suffers from the repetition of Foard's credentials and role, as well as the recentism tone; who cares what date the announcement was made, it would be the period of their work, and the final acceptance of their work that would matter in years to come. Furthermore, ignoring the typos, the insert breaks the flow of the sub-section, and the citation, aside from being a double-mention of one used earlier, is inconsistent with the others. It was brought up that the announcement has to be mentioned for FA quality to be mentained, but such inserts are contrary to the FA criteria 1(a), 2(b) and 2(c): prose, structure, and citation style ( WP:WIAFA). Writing FAs are not simply inserting stand-alone sections of text as I had mentioned before, which is why I requested an effort to work together on the talk pages before integrating them into the article. If no reasonable explanation can be given for the insert, I will be bold in removing it. There is no point for it when we already have a more detailed statement that opens the section of the battlefield's location. As for the Engagement sections, the following statement can be inserted before "As Henry's army advanced past the marsh at the southwestern foot of the hill ...".
This statement can be sourced to Ross, Chrimes, and Gravett (in fact, any reliable source on Bosworth). It serves to further explicitly state that the location given in that section is based on scholarly research. If that is acceptable, we can work it in. Jappalang ( talk) 14:14, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
I didn't want to take this up at first, but there were issues about the authority of the current version even before the recent discoveries. The version presented as the current historical consensus is really no such thing. The authorities used for the battle are partly very old; Mackie (1952), Rowse (1966), Chrimes (1972) and Ross (1974). Chrimes and Ross both died in 1986, so the 1997 and 1999 versions of their books were reprints, not revisions by the authors. The same is the case with Mackie, who died five years before the 1983 version of his book was printed. Furthermore, writers like Mackie, Chrimes, Ross and Horrox are primarily political, and not military historians. For this reason they had to rely heavily on even older works, in the case of Chrimes and Ross, Gairdner's article "The Battle of Bosworth" from 1896 and Hutton's book The Battle of Bosworth Field from 1788! Horrox, meanwhile, barely mentions military matters at all, and when she does relies primarily on Bennett's The Battle of Bosworth from 1985, which – strangely – is not even mentioned in the article. Gravett takes more of a military angle, but he does not have the same academic credentials as the other (he does not have a Ph.D., and is not attached to any academic institution.) Rowse 1966 book is perhaps the least reliable; he published around a hundred books on various subjects, but was primarily an Elizabethan historian.
In any case, there was never any consensus on the battle even when these works were written, much less by the time this article was made. Chrimes writes: "Many attempts have been made to reconstruct in detail what exactly happened at the battle of Bosworth, but mostly in vain." (p. 46) Likewise Ross: "There have been almost as many different accounts of the battle of Bosworth as there have been historians." (p. 216) The official battlefield site presents both Danny Williams' 1974 Ambion Hill theory, Peter Foss' 1985 Redesmore theory and Michael K. Jones' 2002 Atterton theory. While the pre-1985 authorities naturally lay closer to Williams' account (see map in Ross, p. 219), the article reflects Foss' theory, which was also the official battlefield site up until recently. Thus we see that the article does not even agree with the authorities that have been claimed here to support it!
As I have said repeatedly, this is not the time to rewrite the article with speculations about how the battle might have taken place. What concerns me is the fact that the article currently presents one version of the event as definitive, while it was always highly disputed, and is now almost certainly wrong. This fact needs to be prominently featured in the article, not buried away in a inferior section, otherwise it clearly fails 1c of the Featured article criteria. (PS. Certain changes have been made since I started writing this, but though this points in the right direction, it is far from enough.) Lampman ( talk) 16:31, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
The report by Foard is expected to be released in February 2010, or at least the location of the site where the items were found will be revealed. There are three parts to this survey; examination of the soils and the geography to reconstruct the old landscape, examination of the historical documents for placenames and fieldnames, and the fieldwork with the metal detectors. There doesn't seem to be at the moment one complete source for all the information that's "leaked" out to the press. The whole area's a flat plain between small hills; it may be that the discovery of the "site" will turn out in the end to be less important than the discovery of the ammunition. Seems to me that a separate article would be a good solution, with lower standards :) than this FA. Ning-ning ( talk) 08:09, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
User:Jorwar would like to include a sentence indicating that Henry was born in Pembroke. Unfortunately repeated attempts to include this info are being reverted-partly because no reference has been provided. Jorwar's latest edit summary refers to the page for Henry VII, where his birthplace is mentioned in the info box only- without a reference. Ning-ning ( talk) 15:59, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
Is there any doubt that Henry was born in pembroke caste in 1457? All history books I've read on the subject concur. That Pembrokeshire was chosen for his landing in 1485 is at least an interesting fact for the reader and possible one for discussion. (Nowhere in the article is his place of birth mentioned.) He spent the first 14 years of his life in the region so probably knew it and its people quite well. ( Jorwar ( talk) 19:26, 16 November 2009 (UTC))
The thrust of this article as previously stated is a general overview without going too much into details. Thus, mentions of the name of Richard's steed and a list of names of his knights might be excessive, hence this reversion. The fates of Catesby, Ratcliffe, and Lovell might be summarised in Post-battle (not Engagement where the "battle is still ongoing" and that they are not mentioned in significance before this battle) due to their positions as Richard's cohorts (the cat, the rat, and the dog under the hog), but even then I am not too certain of their notability. The rest, however, do not seem to be of significance to this battle. Jappalang ( talk) 09:04, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
The section "Background" contains material that could better be placed in the entries on the Duke of Gloucester / Richard III and on Henry Tudor / Heny VII. Some of the material seems to be based uncritically on Tudor propaganda, e.g. there is no certainty about what happened to the Princes in the Tower. ¬¬¬¬ —Preceding unsigned comment added by J.C. Rigg ( talk • contribs) 15:53, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
The fairly contemporary sources could better be treated separately rather than in a section "Legacy". Not mentioned are the compensations by Henry VII to Merevale, Atherstone, Mancetter, Witherley, Atterton and Fenny Drayton. John D. Austin (Merevale and Atherstone: 1485; recent Bosworth discoveries, Friends of Atherstone Heritage, 2004, p.2-6) reconstructs the movements of Henry on the basis of this contemporary evidence. His reconstruction is close to that of M.K. Jones (Bosworth: 1485; psychology of a battle, Tempus, 2002) but relies also on detailed knowledge of the local area. Neither of these sources is discussed in the present Wikipedia article. There are now two physical items of evidence: firstly Dadlington Church and graves, presumably mainly from Henry;s army; secondly the finds in an area south of Upton from the recent archaeological survey.
Another source of evidence is local place-names, past and present. Redemore, on grounds of analous Leicestershire place-names, probably means 'Road Moor' rather than 'Reed Moor'. According to J. Nichols (The history and antiquities of the County of Leicestershire, 1811), Henry marched to battle along the Redway, which was the prehistoric road from Edgehill through Coventry to Derby, passing through Fenny Drayton to Atterton and Sibson. This means that the munition residues found could be from Henry's army.
On names too, King Richard's Hole (originally probably Halgh, meaning lowland by a river) at the confluence of the Sence with the Anker at the Mythe in Sheepy parish is evidence that Richard spent his last night with his ally Sir Humphrey Stafford at Mythe Hall,then a considerable fortress, reckoning on facing Henry across the River Anker. Henry probably moved along the Redway to Atterton and Upton during the previous night, so that Richard was facing into the morning sun, as pointed out by Jones and Austin.
The local evidence is against most identifications of Sandeford, where Richard was killed. The only sandy ford on the slow-flowing River Saint or Tweed is where the river crosses Upton Ridge, namely Miles Ford south of Wellsborough Hill, which is probably the 'mountaine full high' to which Sir William Stanley removed according to Bosworth Feilde ballad. Even allowing for any exaggeration in the ballad, the 'dale' or 'plaine' can only be that nearer the confluences of the Saint, the Sence and the Anker. In that area, Richard, on arrival from Leicester, would be in sight of both Wellsborough Hill and Merevale Abbey. Christopher Rigg —Preceding unsigned comment added by J.C. Rigg ( talk • contribs) 16:52, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Again and again, I have to wonder if people really read the whole instead of jumping in on recentism. The BBC newspiece ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/leicestershire/8523386.stm) is already a source in the article and need not be formatted as a new source. What the heck is "Walker, Bob (28 October 2009). "New Battle over Bosworth's Site". BBC Radio 5 Live (United Kingdom: BBC). Retrieved 29 October 2009." under Online sources?! Would anyone bother to check through the article before constantly re-inserting the same darn thing under another different format? Featured articles require consistency in its cites and certainly not to spam out the same source many times differently ( WP:WIAFA). Information in the lede also do not need to be cited if it is already sourced in the main body (unless it is extremely controversial or is a quote per WP:LEDE); the lede is a summary after all. Furthermore, as stated in previous sections, until academic circles or an authorative body (such as English Heritage) affirm Foard's finding, we go with what is official; i.e. the Heritage's designation of a wide swath of land (centralised co-ordinates) as possible areas of the battle. Jappalang ( talk) 20:44, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
Have any historians commented on this?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article7032790.ece
Thanks. Bill the Cat 7 ( talk) 18:42, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
Removed 'penultimate,' which means second-from-last, not 'biggest,' as it was apparently used in the article. The Battle of Bosworth field was the last battle of the Wars of the Roses. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.99.32.120 ( talk) 02:57, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
'penultimate' could be replaced with 'ultimate'. Either that or the Battle of Stoke should be mentioned as the ultimate battle. At the moment the text looks wrong.
anonymous newbie
Some reference should be made to the works of recent scholars who point out that there were reports of sightings of the princes in the Tower after Henry Tudor came to the throne and that since the princes had been declared illegitimate they were more of a threat to Henry than they would have been to Richard. After all, if they were illegitimate, so was their sister, Elizabeth of York, and Henry would not gain anything by marrying her, but if she was legitimate, so were they and Edward of York would be the true king of England, not Henry Tudor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.239.152.174 ( talk) 06:07, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
"penultimate battle"? What was the final battle then? Penultimate means second to the end, not the end. Unless there was another battle, maybe this should be called the 'final battle'. (posted by an anonymous newbie) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.40.218.20 ( talk) 08:11, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
I integrated the supplied ref from this addition into the article's reference system and moved it all from the lede to "Prelude". If it's significant enough there could still be a shorter mention, without Dr Thomas's quotes, in the lede.
Does the direct quote from the source contravene WP:NPS, or is it within the guideline?
-- Old Moonraker ( talk) 06:17, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
Far as I understand the argument, some Welsh poems burble on about Henry championing the Welsh. The argument about history being written by the victors is specious, since the "Welsh" Henry was the victor. Might as well argue that some French poetry should be included, because of the significant French contribution. Ning-ning ( talk) 23:28, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
(To Llywelyn2000) Au contraire, as stated, they did examine primary sources (examining the ballads, army figures, levies, pre- and post-battle letters) and as stated found that the general Welsh populace at that time did not fully support Henry before Bosworth and that he did not champion a Welsh cause. However odd it may be, their findings are the accepted view worldwide among scholars (as illustrated again by the cites to material by Chrimes and the others). Please read carefully their writings. Melding is not even English. He is Welsh. "History is written by the victors": well, Henry did win, so he wrote the histories of Tudor England, did he not? So there would be a Welsh view in the chronicles then. As for me, my nationality is plainly stated on my user page. My aim here is to write, in accordance with policies and guidelines, quality articles that interest me. Promoting a niche viewpoint and claiming it is of some weight to challenge or overturn a scholastic view accepted worldwide simply falls foul of those rules. Jappalang ( talk) 01:02, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
please do not act hastily in deleting things you havent read. PMK indeed wrote this, and i am in the process of finding the page # in the biography. you could move it anywhere, but why delete variable info? appalling seeing many allison weir references, btw. 70.15.169.17 ( talk) 05:54, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
typed it under legacy section. ill add the page reference when i can find it. good day. 70.15.169.17 ( talk) 06:00, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
might be in another book ive mistaken for the bio. took you 43 mins to peruse a book of over 500 pages. yr fast my friend, yr fast. 70.15.169.17 ( talk) 07:56, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
i think you just believe the statement to be partisan and as such, violate the supossed "neutrality" of the article. to have a "featured article" based plurally on allison weir quotes and information sickens me. there must be some retarded hierarchy i am not aware of. 70.15.169.17 ( talk) 07:58, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
sorry yr highness, excuse my grave error in a page full of blatant and latent inadequacies. cheers. funny, on another page i tried to add a KG post-nominal to an individual and i was told, full stop, that it was anachronistic to do so for people in the middle ages. this, i found out, to be true. still, there are countless individuals that retain the letters in their titles. do me a favor and fix those, almighty god of internet information. moonrake you to hell, i will. hahaha. bond, dave bond. 70.15.169.17 ( talk) 10:01, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
also, in this same article, some time ago I added the true commander of the Lancasters-John de Vere, and was refused justification as to why it had been removed. tudor was a hack and never led an army in person. i see he was the leader of the army, but not the vanguard commander. the article even states such. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.15.169.17 ( talk) 10:04, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
you are familiar with me by this point, but my points are being ignored by the registered members, whose allegiances i am questionable of. it is said by numerous authors that he only charged tudor with his household knights and their squires. rolls from the time state he had anywhere from 20-25 household knights and their customary squires. most sources point to the number being no more than 100 that took with him in death's shadow. he is said to have excused common soldiers and only summoned his bodyguard because of the obvious danger. i know the records are scarce, but 800 is an absolutely proposterous number. please fix. 70.15.169.17 ( talk) 05:21, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
im sure yr tired of hearing my mention kendall (mostly because most modern readers somehow view his material as being outdated), but he states this. it is mentioned universally that he led his household knights into a fatal charge. can a man have 800 household knights and squires. this wasnt nero or any image-obsessed ruler of antiquity, this was a simple man who inherited the throne under extraordinary circumstances. 70.15.169.17 ( talk) 08:26, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
i like what you did there, sir. very journalistic and broad, but it asks the common man to question such a number. i am using the average number a later middle ages monarch would have in his retinue, 20-25 in peacetime. during wartime it was different and the number swell as numbers were added (mainly HYW). anyways, thanks for appending it. as for the quotation in kendall: look on page 441 "at the head of less than a hundred men, the King of England, his golden crown flashing on his helmet, was charging the mass of the enemy reserve." this is the 1983 renewal copyright, i believe. i am american, perhaps you have a british version? to further elaborate, this version has the famous portrait of richard slightly altered, with a panorama of lads and ladies behind him. you do a grave disservice to people if you allow material not to be checked. misinformation is killing this generation just as much as devolution of language and culture. ill be damned if i cannot elocute the truth to mongrels. 70.15.169.17 ( talk) 10:06, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
I just deleted the following sentence: "Except for those in the north, the people of England firmly believed that Richard, the "tyrant",[citing Lander p 327] had murdered his nephews.[citing Ross p 104]" Ross doesn't actually say that; in fact, he implies the exact opposite, that only in "the southern and western counties of England" did these rumors sway large numbers of people, and that "the rest of the country seems to have been untroubled by such sentiments." Other historians make clear that even for years after Bosworth there was no consensus ("firmly believed" or otherwise) on the fate of the princes, and in fact Perkin Warbeck spent several years successfully claiming to be Richard of Shrewsbury. DCB4W ( talk) 21:11, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
This contribution by IP removed from article Note * - this point is disputable. Jasper Tudor was an experienced soldier, and the various Lancastrian enclaves in Brittany and France were reported at the time as armed camps; so it is difficult to believe that Henry - as a young nobleman - did not get military training aimed at fitting him to be a Commander in-the-field. Furthermore, we know from French sources that in early-1485 Henry led a combined force of his Lancastrians and French troops loaned by the Regent of France, - Princess Anne de Beaujeu,- to raise the siege of Hammes Castle near Calais, after the garrison had declared for him, and Richard III had ordered the Constable Of Calais to invest the castle and return the garrison to it's proper Allegiance. Directly after that incident,in return for the loan of those French forces which had been on their way back from Flanders, the French Regent prevailed upon Henry to lead his Lancastrians in support of some other military operations of her own. Therefore, looking at the timeline, one should consider in the light of the marked foregoing statement,that Henry had spent 14 years living in an armed encampment which was in a constant state of high alert against fears of kidnap and-or assassination, - being trained almost-daily in the arts of war, and had already led his Lancastrians into combat himself on at least two deployments, even before the Battle of Bosworth. Added to these facts, consideration should be given to his activities during the first 12 years of his Reign, during which contemporary commentators note him as an accomplished Jouster, archer, and huntsman with the boar spear; besides leading an invasion of France in person, in support of Brittany in 1492; and leading his forces to put down the armed Risings for Lambert Simnel and Perkin Warbeck. In my opinion, it is therefore unsafe to assume that Henry was lacking in military training and military ability."
I haven't removed them yet but the Coats of Arms shown for the Duke of Norfolk and Earl of Surrey as leaders of the Yorkists are incorrect. They are the Howard arms but show the Flodden agumentation awarded to Surrey (then 2nd Duke of Norfolk) after the Battle of Flodden. Since this was almost 30 years after Bosworth the relevent arms should be the Howard arms without the augmentation. In addition, Surrey's arms should have a mark of difference e.g. a label of three points since othrwise he would be carrying the same arms as his father which is contrary to the laws of heraldry. Jwasanders ( talk) 11:25, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
The Background section contains this sentence:
My understanding is that Richard II legitimized them and that Henry IV confirmed that but added that they were not eligible for the throne. Is that sentence mistaken? Could it be written clearer? Bill the Cat 7 ( talk) 17:25, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
Is there any doubt left about the location of the battle? It seems to me that the exact spot has been proven. I'll go ahead and add that in sometime in the near future unless there are strong objections. Bill the Cat 7 ( talk) 12:21, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
According to The Guardian in March 2015:
Looks pretty conclusive to me, they don't say "might have" or anything. They sound pretty sure and they're probably not in the habit of making flat-out statements like that if they don't have pretty good reason. If this is true, it's not service to the reader to indicate that the location is not known. Herostratus ( talk) 10:49, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
The Guardian newspaper and it's journalists are not authorities on matters relating to history and archaeology. John2o2o2o ( talk) 21:20, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
The Oxford English Dictionary's definition of "field" in this context is: "The ground on which a battle is fought; a battlefield." Amongst many others (incuding Shakespeare) it quotes the Old English poem The Battle of Maldon: Wearð her on felda folc totwæmed, scyldburh tobrocen. and John Gower's Middle English Confessio Amantis: Thei setten day, thei chosen field, The knihtes coevered under Schield Togedre come at time set. It seems clear that the correct name for the battle is therefore either "the Battle of Bosworth" or "Bosworth Field". Calling it "the Battle of Bosworth Field" is tautological and incorrect, albeit widely used. Fillthemill ( talk) 13:17, 26 March 2015 (UTC)fillthemill
Moving this article would be a controversial move, so use the WP:RM process and present you evidence based on reliable sources ( UCRN), per Paul Barlow. -- PBS ( talk) 18:44, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
I have read several accounts that Henry hid himself among his pikemen and his welsh body guards during Richard's charge. Some of the French mercenaries involved in the battle say that Henry refused to engage in combat personally. According to the same source, Lancastrian soldiers in close proximity to the King heard him refuse an offer to flee when Stanley's men closed in, proclaiming to his men he will fight to the death. I think this is worthy of mention in the article if there are no objections. Dapi89 ( talk) 20:54, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
The article states that 30 ships brought Henry and the others to Milford Haven. The Wikipedia article for George Bissipat gives the number of seven. I've been told the Wikipedia article corresponds to a history of the French navy, but I've never seen such a history. Based on the type of ships, however, it is quite possible that each ship carried 400-500 men, which would make seven ships quite possible. (For some reason, the page won't allow the Wikipedia page for George Bissipat to be linked, but you can find it by googling George Bissipat.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.95.1.238 ( talk) 22:09, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
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I am not sure that the opening statement "The Battle of Bosworth Field (or Battle of Bosworth) was the last significant battle of the Wars of the Roses" is entirely fair. Though Bosworth was indeed the last battle to result in a change of ruling house, it was not clear at the time this was the case (especially as the Tudors had revived the Lancastrain claim after the defeat and death of all the notable Lancastrians in 1471), and there were later attempts to restore a Yorkist to the throne, which involved some fighting. While the majority of these were arguably not serious threats, the Battle of Stoke Field two years later is significant. The article on the battle notes that "Though it is often portrayed as almost a footnote to the major battles between York and Lancaster, it may have been slightly larger than Bosworth, with much heavier casualties". The battle represented a serious threat to the Tudor dynasty as the Yorkists were supposedly fighting to restore Edward of Warwick, a direct male line descendant of Richard of York. While the "Edward" they had was an impostor, he had been crowned Edward VI in Ireland and if the battle had been won the real Edward, whom Henry VII viewed as a serious threat, could have been put on the throne if not killed. Alternately, John de la Pole, 1st Earl of Lincoln who died fighting at Stoke Field, had been named heir by Richard and had a strong claim to the crown (and arguably was the only serious adult male Yorkist claimant still alive). The elimination of the false Warwick and the death of Lincoln and the deaths or disappearance of other leading Yorkists, notably Francis Lovell, 1st Viscount Lovell arguably marked the point of no return for the Yorkists. So in terms of outcome and loss of life Stoke Field was significant, making it difficult to justify saying that "was the last significant" battle in the conflict. Dunarc ( talk) 19:04, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
Can this be added to Category:Deaths and funerals of British royalty? Darrelljon ( talk) 03:39, 23 September 2023 (UTC)