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From Wikipedia:Featured article candidates (Revision as of 17:47, 8 Apr 2004) -- somehow my nomination was never added to Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Archived nominations/Index (possibly because it gathered little interest at the time):
I am nominating this as an act of unabashed vanity -- & I'm amazed, not having read it for several months, that it still fairly close to what I strive for. I admit it needs some pictures. (I have the photos somewhere, & will scan them when I find them.) -- llywrch 23:40, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
This occupies a chunk of space in this article, but this passage already appears in an annotated translation at Ceawlin of Wessex. Should this be snipped out with a note to the user to refer to that article? -- llywrch 19:14, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Please state which bits of information needs references. Anthony Appleyard 06:11, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
-- Stbalbach 12:52, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I've corrected the 'quotation' from Annales Cambriae. It has 'Bellum Badonis' for both battles, not Mount/mons or badonicus. The 'date' it gives has quite a wide range for an AD equivalent. I think the second battle of Badon is Bedanheafod of the ASC, which Plummer thought was a Great Bedwyn (covered more in my 'The Reign of Arthur', Sutton 2004, between Wulfhere of Mercia and the West Saxons. Geoffrey of Monmouth does not specify Little Solsbury Hill, just Bath. Chris Gidlow
I was thinking about adding a link to http://www.dagorhir.com/badon/ in the section for popular media links. Since this is a combat recreation event named after the battle, I think it would fit in just as well as video games using the battle in them.
Only one comment that needs serious consideration: this article has a blatant error in the beginning, where the writer states that the Venerable Bede claimed in his Ecclesiastical History of the English People that Ambrosius Aurelianus as the victor at Badon Hill. This is not so. Bede makes no such claims, and he names no leader for that battle, as neither did Gildas. Bede was copying, almost word for word, Gildas's sixth century text; The Destruction and Conquest of Britain. If the Venerable Bede HAD made such a claim that Ambrosius had won Badon Hill, then there would be no great discussion as to who had won that battle today. The article writer has got their facts wrong on this account and it needs to be removed in order for it to be historically correct. The Venerable Bede did NOT claim this battle for Ambrosius Aurelianus. Wikipedia articles must be objective, with content based on evidence and fact if they are to have any value to researchers; or if Wikipedia itself is to have any value. The 'fact' of Ambrosius in this article is wrong.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by TwoRiders ( talk • contribs).
This is a bit odd. I'd hardly say such a claim would constitute a 'serious error'. Neither Bede nor Gildas say that Ambrosius Aurelianus led the British at Badon Hill, but they both name him as being the leader of the British resistance, a resistance that culminated in the victory at Badon. Ecclesiastical History, ch. 64: 'Their leader at this time was Ambrosius Aurelianus... Under his leadership the British took up arms, challenged their conquerors to battle, and with God's help inflicted a defeat on them. Thenceforward victory swung first to one side and then the other, until the battle of Badon Hill, when the Britons made a considerable slaughter of their invaders.' Therefore it seems a reasonable assumption that Bede and Gildas meant to imply that he was there. At the moment, all the article says is 'More recently, scholars guessed that the Romano-British leader could have been Ambrosius Aurelianus'; it's hardly a recent assumption. I think Ambrosius needs to move up the page! 131.111.195.8 ( talk) 22:05, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Is this the "Battle of Badon Hill" at which Brave Sir Robin personally wet himself? Applejuicefool ( talk) 15:28, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm all for the Gaelic, except that it is not best known by that name and this is not the Gaelic wiki, its the english, this article name should be Battle of Badon Hill, which is how it is referred to in most media. Google backs up this assertion as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.207.191 ( talk) 15:12, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
I just wanted to add that the search for the location of Badon Hill was one of the plots in Anthony Price's ingenious espionage novel "Our Man in Camelot". ISBN and other details here: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Our-Man-Camelot-Anthony-Price/dp/0708821898/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217911949&sr=8-1
Regards
Jim Wickham jim.wickham@pgs.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.127.193.41 ( talk) 04:54, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
"altered days of death". This should read "altered years of death". The year is often flexible or forgettable, but the day of a martyrdom or other event was commemorated annually and less likely to be shiftable.-- Wetman ( talk) 18:12, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
The Sutton Hoo helmet is at least 100 years later than the battle of Badon and was made in Scandinavia. It is not a relevant illustration for this article. I suggest we remove it. Comments? Martin Rundkvist ( talk) 12:07, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
The C.S. Lewis quote could be kept (it's somewhat detailed, and the Battle of Badon actually resonates with some of the themes of the book), but the others seem to be mere passing mentions, and so probably aren't as significant.. AnonMoos ( talk)
The article makes several references to "Celtic names" and Arthur as a "Celtic Leader" this is anachronistic in the extreme as the term Celt did not enter the lexicon until the 19th Century. Surely the correct term is Briton or Brython. Scrooge ( talk) 22:17, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
I take your point, Cagwinn. But WP has become one of the major information resources in the world, and that mostly means "average readers". Let's not lower the overall level of understanding in the world by needlessly confusing people. The keyword is needless: We have alternatives that are both correct (as yours are, to be sure) and unambiguous. Jmacwiki ( talk) 15:30, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
Sorry to weigh back in on this after so long, but I still don't see what is wrong with Brython. It as correct a term as any, distinguishes from the modern usage of Briton and avoids the argument about precisely what portion of the population spoke Latin or how many had ever been to a caldarium. Scrooge ( talk) 14:00, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
To discuss this subject more define and precisely: • Are the “British’ ”, the actual people who lives in the south of Great Britain Island? • Does it consist of German-Anglo-Saxon, Frisian and Jute people, mixed with Native and Roman-Britons? • Are the Native Britons, the ancient Celts in Britain, first the Anglo-Saxon invasion? • Did they were call Welsh, by the invaders? • Does Welsh means foreign? • Do they live in Wales actually? • Are the Roman-Britons, a mix of roman empire people and native Briton Celts? Most of Italian students and I, have no form an exact idea about this subject, because many English and Italian history teachers, don’t work properly! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.200.129.18 ( talk) 01:15, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was moved. -- BDD ( talk) 19:06, 14 February 2013 (UTC) ( non-admin closure)
Battle of Mons Badonicus → Battle of Badon – Per WP:USEENGLISH & WP:COMMONNAME; further, arguments for current non-english, non-commonname unconvincing. Badon, Badon Hill, & Mount Badon are roughly equally common: Badon's shortest. — LlywelynII 10:34, 7 February 2013 (UTC) Coming back to the discussion above about this page being at the wrong name, this page is at the wrong name. The fact that all three of Badon (132 actual uses), Mount Badon (104), and Badon Hill (130) are equally much more common is not an argument for having it at a third, much less common name (76). (And that's at Google Books; general use is more lopsidedly non-random-Latin-name friendly.) Incoming links break down similarly evenly: 10-12-12. That ignores links to the current name. There's more of those, but only because kind editors pipe it in. Cf. England#Middle Ages: "Their advance was contained for some decades after the Britons' victory at the [[Battle of Mons Badonicus|Battle of Mount Badon]] Or List of historical drama films: "King Arthur 2004 early 5th century the Roman withdrawal from Britain and the [[Battle of Mons Badonicus|Battle of Mount Badon]] Or Annales Cambriae: "Year 72 (c. AD 516) The [[Battle of Mons Badonicus|Battle of Badon]]..." No one, anywhere on this talk page, uses Mons Badonicus to discuss the battle itself.
As far as why use "Badon" in preference to the other two: it's shorter; includes the others; and doesn't specify a height for the place. It's also the original name of the battle (even in Latin) in surviving Welsh sources like the A. Cambriae. — LlywelynII 10:34, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
Quotes like " Annales Cambriae ... preserve an entry for AD 665" and "The later Annales Cambriae offers the date 516" mean it's worth mentioning:
The A text has none whatsoever (nil, nada, zippo); the B and C texts don't start dating their entries until well after the first millennium.
The "dates" these sources discuss are those reconstructed by other historians. If those dates are off, it's not necessarily the Annals' fault. In fact, the B & C text annals do have entries all the way back to the birth of Christ. If you just count forward from there, Badon occurred in 487, not 517. The fly in the ointment is that the texts disagree with themselves: by the time the Dionysian-era dates start, they're off by about 30 entries. Where those 30 years got lost is a matter of scholarship. The reconstructed Badon date being off by 30 years isn't a point against the text – it's a sign the currently-accepted dating's lousy. — LlywelynII 11:01, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
According to the Oxford Dictionary, the right pronunciation for Badon (Battle of Mount Badon) is /ˈbeɪdən/ https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/badon_hill,_battle_of Hlnodovic ( talk) 00:52, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
The early sources' account that the Saxons were thrown back around this time seems to be borne out by archaeological evidence. Studies of cemeteries (at this point, the Anglo-Saxons remained pagan while the Britons were Christianized) suggest the border shifted some time around 500. Afterwards, the pagans held the present areas of Kent, Sussex, Norfolk and Suffolk, and the area around the Humber. The Britons seem to have controlled salients to the north and west of London and south of Verulamium in addition to everything west of a line running from Christchurch at the mouth of the Wiltshire Avon north to the Trent, then along the Trent to the Humber, then north along the Derwent to the North Sea. The salients could then be supplied along Watling Street, dividing the invaders into pockets south of the Weald in east Kent and around the Wash. citation needed
-- 12:34, 30 September 2018 SNAAAAKE!!
Or BArdon Mill Northumberland near Ravenglass Roman Barracks Hadrians Wall, both places are within a mile of eACH OTHER. bARDON mILL IS 16TH cENTURY BUT PERHAPS THE NAME RELATES TO SOMETHING OLDER ESPECIALLY WITH A rOMAN bARRACKS AND bATH hOUSE IN THE VICINITY? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.69.163.131 ( talk) 23:42, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
A subheading entitled "Siege of Badon" describes two sources for the battle, one from the sixth century and one from the eighth. The next subheading, called "Battle of Badon" the describes three more sources, from the ninth, tenth and twelfth centuries.
The distinction between the sections is not really the nature of warfare (siege vs battle) but simply one of chronology.
I think it would make more sense to merge these two sections under the heading "Historical Accounts" or "Mediaeval Sources" and then have five subheadings, one per source. -- Bacon Man ( talk) 09:14, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
No-one objected, so I have now made the suggested amendment. -- Bacon Man ( talk) 11:04, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
Please note that Template:Infobox military conflict#Parameters states against "result" that "this parameter may use one of two standard terms: "X victory" or "Inconclusive"." The infobox has been amended to reflect this. Please read the template "result" guidance in full before amending or reverting. It would probably be best to discuss any proposed change here first to seek consensus. Thanks. Gog the Mild ( talk) 12:38, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
GVGVNH,, 82.36.226.173 ( talk) 08:38, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Battle of Badon article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
From Wikipedia:Featured article candidates (Revision as of 17:47, 8 Apr 2004) -- somehow my nomination was never added to Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Archived nominations/Index (possibly because it gathered little interest at the time):
I am nominating this as an act of unabashed vanity -- & I'm amazed, not having read it for several months, that it still fairly close to what I strive for. I admit it needs some pictures. (I have the photos somewhere, & will scan them when I find them.) -- llywrch 23:40, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
This occupies a chunk of space in this article, but this passage already appears in an annotated translation at Ceawlin of Wessex. Should this be snipped out with a note to the user to refer to that article? -- llywrch 19:14, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Please state which bits of information needs references. Anthony Appleyard 06:11, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
-- Stbalbach 12:52, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I've corrected the 'quotation' from Annales Cambriae. It has 'Bellum Badonis' for both battles, not Mount/mons or badonicus. The 'date' it gives has quite a wide range for an AD equivalent. I think the second battle of Badon is Bedanheafod of the ASC, which Plummer thought was a Great Bedwyn (covered more in my 'The Reign of Arthur', Sutton 2004, between Wulfhere of Mercia and the West Saxons. Geoffrey of Monmouth does not specify Little Solsbury Hill, just Bath. Chris Gidlow
I was thinking about adding a link to http://www.dagorhir.com/badon/ in the section for popular media links. Since this is a combat recreation event named after the battle, I think it would fit in just as well as video games using the battle in them.
Only one comment that needs serious consideration: this article has a blatant error in the beginning, where the writer states that the Venerable Bede claimed in his Ecclesiastical History of the English People that Ambrosius Aurelianus as the victor at Badon Hill. This is not so. Bede makes no such claims, and he names no leader for that battle, as neither did Gildas. Bede was copying, almost word for word, Gildas's sixth century text; The Destruction and Conquest of Britain. If the Venerable Bede HAD made such a claim that Ambrosius had won Badon Hill, then there would be no great discussion as to who had won that battle today. The article writer has got their facts wrong on this account and it needs to be removed in order for it to be historically correct. The Venerable Bede did NOT claim this battle for Ambrosius Aurelianus. Wikipedia articles must be objective, with content based on evidence and fact if they are to have any value to researchers; or if Wikipedia itself is to have any value. The 'fact' of Ambrosius in this article is wrong.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by TwoRiders ( talk • contribs).
This is a bit odd. I'd hardly say such a claim would constitute a 'serious error'. Neither Bede nor Gildas say that Ambrosius Aurelianus led the British at Badon Hill, but they both name him as being the leader of the British resistance, a resistance that culminated in the victory at Badon. Ecclesiastical History, ch. 64: 'Their leader at this time was Ambrosius Aurelianus... Under his leadership the British took up arms, challenged their conquerors to battle, and with God's help inflicted a defeat on them. Thenceforward victory swung first to one side and then the other, until the battle of Badon Hill, when the Britons made a considerable slaughter of their invaders.' Therefore it seems a reasonable assumption that Bede and Gildas meant to imply that he was there. At the moment, all the article says is 'More recently, scholars guessed that the Romano-British leader could have been Ambrosius Aurelianus'; it's hardly a recent assumption. I think Ambrosius needs to move up the page! 131.111.195.8 ( talk) 22:05, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Is this the "Battle of Badon Hill" at which Brave Sir Robin personally wet himself? Applejuicefool ( talk) 15:28, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm all for the Gaelic, except that it is not best known by that name and this is not the Gaelic wiki, its the english, this article name should be Battle of Badon Hill, which is how it is referred to in most media. Google backs up this assertion as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.207.191 ( talk) 15:12, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
I just wanted to add that the search for the location of Badon Hill was one of the plots in Anthony Price's ingenious espionage novel "Our Man in Camelot". ISBN and other details here: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Our-Man-Camelot-Anthony-Price/dp/0708821898/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217911949&sr=8-1
Regards
Jim Wickham jim.wickham@pgs.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.127.193.41 ( talk) 04:54, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
"altered days of death". This should read "altered years of death". The year is often flexible or forgettable, but the day of a martyrdom or other event was commemorated annually and less likely to be shiftable.-- Wetman ( talk) 18:12, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
The Sutton Hoo helmet is at least 100 years later than the battle of Badon and was made in Scandinavia. It is not a relevant illustration for this article. I suggest we remove it. Comments? Martin Rundkvist ( talk) 12:07, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
The C.S. Lewis quote could be kept (it's somewhat detailed, and the Battle of Badon actually resonates with some of the themes of the book), but the others seem to be mere passing mentions, and so probably aren't as significant.. AnonMoos ( talk)
The article makes several references to "Celtic names" and Arthur as a "Celtic Leader" this is anachronistic in the extreme as the term Celt did not enter the lexicon until the 19th Century. Surely the correct term is Briton or Brython. Scrooge ( talk) 22:17, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
I take your point, Cagwinn. But WP has become one of the major information resources in the world, and that mostly means "average readers". Let's not lower the overall level of understanding in the world by needlessly confusing people. The keyword is needless: We have alternatives that are both correct (as yours are, to be sure) and unambiguous. Jmacwiki ( talk) 15:30, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
Sorry to weigh back in on this after so long, but I still don't see what is wrong with Brython. It as correct a term as any, distinguishes from the modern usage of Briton and avoids the argument about precisely what portion of the population spoke Latin or how many had ever been to a caldarium. Scrooge ( talk) 14:00, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
To discuss this subject more define and precisely: • Are the “British’ ”, the actual people who lives in the south of Great Britain Island? • Does it consist of German-Anglo-Saxon, Frisian and Jute people, mixed with Native and Roman-Britons? • Are the Native Britons, the ancient Celts in Britain, first the Anglo-Saxon invasion? • Did they were call Welsh, by the invaders? • Does Welsh means foreign? • Do they live in Wales actually? • Are the Roman-Britons, a mix of roman empire people and native Briton Celts? Most of Italian students and I, have no form an exact idea about this subject, because many English and Italian history teachers, don’t work properly! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.200.129.18 ( talk) 01:15, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was moved. -- BDD ( talk) 19:06, 14 February 2013 (UTC) ( non-admin closure)
Battle of Mons Badonicus → Battle of Badon – Per WP:USEENGLISH & WP:COMMONNAME; further, arguments for current non-english, non-commonname unconvincing. Badon, Badon Hill, & Mount Badon are roughly equally common: Badon's shortest. — LlywelynII 10:34, 7 February 2013 (UTC) Coming back to the discussion above about this page being at the wrong name, this page is at the wrong name. The fact that all three of Badon (132 actual uses), Mount Badon (104), and Badon Hill (130) are equally much more common is not an argument for having it at a third, much less common name (76). (And that's at Google Books; general use is more lopsidedly non-random-Latin-name friendly.) Incoming links break down similarly evenly: 10-12-12. That ignores links to the current name. There's more of those, but only because kind editors pipe it in. Cf. England#Middle Ages: "Their advance was contained for some decades after the Britons' victory at the [[Battle of Mons Badonicus|Battle of Mount Badon]] Or List of historical drama films: "King Arthur 2004 early 5th century the Roman withdrawal from Britain and the [[Battle of Mons Badonicus|Battle of Mount Badon]] Or Annales Cambriae: "Year 72 (c. AD 516) The [[Battle of Mons Badonicus|Battle of Badon]]..." No one, anywhere on this talk page, uses Mons Badonicus to discuss the battle itself.
As far as why use "Badon" in preference to the other two: it's shorter; includes the others; and doesn't specify a height for the place. It's also the original name of the battle (even in Latin) in surviving Welsh sources like the A. Cambriae. — LlywelynII 10:34, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
Quotes like " Annales Cambriae ... preserve an entry for AD 665" and "The later Annales Cambriae offers the date 516" mean it's worth mentioning:
The A text has none whatsoever (nil, nada, zippo); the B and C texts don't start dating their entries until well after the first millennium.
The "dates" these sources discuss are those reconstructed by other historians. If those dates are off, it's not necessarily the Annals' fault. In fact, the B & C text annals do have entries all the way back to the birth of Christ. If you just count forward from there, Badon occurred in 487, not 517. The fly in the ointment is that the texts disagree with themselves: by the time the Dionysian-era dates start, they're off by about 30 entries. Where those 30 years got lost is a matter of scholarship. The reconstructed Badon date being off by 30 years isn't a point against the text – it's a sign the currently-accepted dating's lousy. — LlywelynII 11:01, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
According to the Oxford Dictionary, the right pronunciation for Badon (Battle of Mount Badon) is /ˈbeɪdən/ https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/badon_hill,_battle_of Hlnodovic ( talk) 00:52, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
The early sources' account that the Saxons were thrown back around this time seems to be borne out by archaeological evidence. Studies of cemeteries (at this point, the Anglo-Saxons remained pagan while the Britons were Christianized) suggest the border shifted some time around 500. Afterwards, the pagans held the present areas of Kent, Sussex, Norfolk and Suffolk, and the area around the Humber. The Britons seem to have controlled salients to the north and west of London and south of Verulamium in addition to everything west of a line running from Christchurch at the mouth of the Wiltshire Avon north to the Trent, then along the Trent to the Humber, then north along the Derwent to the North Sea. The salients could then be supplied along Watling Street, dividing the invaders into pockets south of the Weald in east Kent and around the Wash. citation needed
-- 12:34, 30 September 2018 SNAAAAKE!!
Or BArdon Mill Northumberland near Ravenglass Roman Barracks Hadrians Wall, both places are within a mile of eACH OTHER. bARDON mILL IS 16TH cENTURY BUT PERHAPS THE NAME RELATES TO SOMETHING OLDER ESPECIALLY WITH A rOMAN bARRACKS AND bATH hOUSE IN THE VICINITY? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.69.163.131 ( talk) 23:42, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
A subheading entitled "Siege of Badon" describes two sources for the battle, one from the sixth century and one from the eighth. The next subheading, called "Battle of Badon" the describes three more sources, from the ninth, tenth and twelfth centuries.
The distinction between the sections is not really the nature of warfare (siege vs battle) but simply one of chronology.
I think it would make more sense to merge these two sections under the heading "Historical Accounts" or "Mediaeval Sources" and then have five subheadings, one per source. -- Bacon Man ( talk) 09:14, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
No-one objected, so I have now made the suggested amendment. -- Bacon Man ( talk) 11:04, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
Please note that Template:Infobox military conflict#Parameters states against "result" that "this parameter may use one of two standard terms: "X victory" or "Inconclusive"." The infobox has been amended to reflect this. Please read the template "result" guidance in full before amending or reverting. It would probably be best to discuss any proposed change here first to seek consensus. Thanks. Gog the Mild ( talk) 12:38, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
GVGVNH,, 82.36.226.173 ( talk) 08:38, 14 April 2024 (UTC)