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I would like to discuss a Sources column for the Finishers table, to contain a reference for each finishing time.
First, is there any real opposition to such an addition? If so, on what basis?
Second, the obvious most authoritative source would be Cantrell. He, or someone close to him, does the actual timing, and presumably he keeps the official records in some form. Does he put the records online? Where? If not, is there a single online source that is more "reliable" than the rest? I'd be looking for someone who has direct access to the official records, rather than getting their information from other sources such as Facebook, Twitter, or simple word-of-mouth (emails, phone calls, etc.). Failing that, someone who at least has direct contact with Cantrell.
Comments? ― Mandruss ☎ 15:22, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
@ CanadianLinuxUser, Barkleymovie, Steven Walling, Eschoryii, Irregulargalaxies, and NJasperse: Pinging editors who have recently made non-trivial changes to the article. ― Mandruss ☎ 02:14, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
What time of year is The Race season 2006 no unfinished. I'm curious because I want to be one of the 40 people that enter possibly with bib number one considering my recent track record....! TSeeton ( talk) 21:43, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
If I remember correctly they changed the length of the Barkley Marathons, would it be worth separating, the table into old loop vs new loop?
2607:EA00:107:3407:2D2A:7E35:5741:1CEA ( talk) 04:06, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
"... it's a metric unique to this type of race"
I somewhat understand the rationale. I wonder why, after 29 years, it suddenly becomes important to note this metric for the first female finisher. I might be more inclined to accept it for a male finisher, although the "slow" end of the range comes down to differences of a few minutes (seven finishes over 59:30:00; only 00:04:48 between the two slowest).
For a female finisher, it's a lot less appropriate. It's a scientific fact that female runners have less stamina due to less muscle mass; this is clearly evidenced by the fact that it took 29 years for a female to finish (not for lack of strong female participants). To a great extent, of course she's the slowest finisher; it would be more notable if she weren't. It's at least as notable that hers is the fastest (only) female finish, and it seems to detract from that achievement to flag it as "slowest". To include this metric for Paris is to compare apples (men) to oranges (women), and I continue to oppose.
Unregistered editors cannot be pinged, so I will notify the other editor on their user talk page. ― Mandruss ☎ 04:09, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
people who know the Barkely are used to see the "slowest finish" in this article since many years. Sorry for "aggressive", which many call "assertive" or "direct". I'm an American. And I've spent many years editing American politics articles, where this style is unfortunately necessary. In any case, the "fun sarcasm" bit is a small part of my argument. (Mandruss editing logged out) 161.97.225.237 ( talk) 07:25, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
a concerning ignorance about these long-form races, where women do frequently outperform men- I confess to ignorance about any long-form races other than this one. I'm a dedicated non-runner. As empirical evidence, one finish in 26 doesn't seem to support "women do frequently outperform men". (Sure, the strongest women often beat the weakest men, but that's not the same thing. For a meaningful comparison, we have to look at the strongest of both, which is what the Finishers table does.) I looked for an explanation and couldn't come up with anything besides physiology. Is there something atypical about this particular race that strongly favors men? If men and women are equal in endurance running, why is it necessary to show separate stats (e.g. Boston Marathon)? Never mind endurance, why don't men and women compete against each other in Olympic track events? How much evidence do we need that men have a physical advantage? ― Mandruss ☎ 20:09, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
That lack of knowledge was odd, in tandem with not knowing the "slowest finish" metric had in fact been on this page before.By the way, it's bad form to criticize a fellow editor for a simple memory lapse that was immediately admitted and self-corrected. In my opinion. ― Mandruss ☎ 21:39, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
I don’t think the inclusion of a separate women’s table is relevant here. Imo there simply aren’t enough finishers to justify a separating anything and there’s enough info about Paris in the article to identify her accomplishment. There are no other differences or separate categories in the marathons, so why separate out the winners. PyropePe ( talk) 04:10, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
Also reviewing the direction of the conversation the separate table spawned from, I don’t believe statistical or scientific info about women’s performance in running in general is relevant. More concerned about how fixed time races are reported and how the Barkely marathons report themselves. PyropePe ( talk) 04:30, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
Likewise, who wants to hold two Barkley Marathonses every year? Not Cantrell, I expect. ― Mandruss ☎ 22:58, 26 March 2024 (UTC)Even when men and women compete side-by-side in events, which is often not the case, separate stats are maintained. They might as well be separate events and are combined only as a matter of convenience (who wants to hold two Boston Marathons every year?). Separate stats are maintained for the Boston, the New York, and, I strongly suspect, just about any major organized marathon. There is no rationale or justification for carving out an exception for the Barkley or for other less-known races like it.
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Should Female finishers be recorded separately for the Barkley Marathons?
Re-listed. ― Mandruss ☎ 13:13, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
A number of related questions have come up on this article in the past few days due to Jasmin Paris recently becoming the first woman to complete the Barkley Marathons. Most sporting events keep stats separately based on gender but the Barkley Marathons don't make this distinction as they aren't part of any kind of larger organization or used as qualifiers for anything.
It's important to note that the table originally came from a discussion on labeling her time as the "slowest finish", a metric often recorded for fixed time races but could be seen as demeaning the first woman to finish the race to outsiders. Input on that subject is also appreciated. PyropePe ( talk) 03:29, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
a metric often recorded for fixed time races, but as a running "outsider" that carries relatively little weight for me. ― Mandruss ☎ 05:12, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I would like to discuss a Sources column for the Finishers table, to contain a reference for each finishing time.
First, is there any real opposition to such an addition? If so, on what basis?
Second, the obvious most authoritative source would be Cantrell. He, or someone close to him, does the actual timing, and presumably he keeps the official records in some form. Does he put the records online? Where? If not, is there a single online source that is more "reliable" than the rest? I'd be looking for someone who has direct access to the official records, rather than getting their information from other sources such as Facebook, Twitter, or simple word-of-mouth (emails, phone calls, etc.). Failing that, someone who at least has direct contact with Cantrell.
Comments? ― Mandruss ☎ 15:22, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
@ CanadianLinuxUser, Barkleymovie, Steven Walling, Eschoryii, Irregulargalaxies, and NJasperse: Pinging editors who have recently made non-trivial changes to the article. ― Mandruss ☎ 02:14, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
What time of year is The Race season 2006 no unfinished. I'm curious because I want to be one of the 40 people that enter possibly with bib number one considering my recent track record....! TSeeton ( talk) 21:43, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
If I remember correctly they changed the length of the Barkley Marathons, would it be worth separating, the table into old loop vs new loop?
2607:EA00:107:3407:2D2A:7E35:5741:1CEA ( talk) 04:06, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
"... it's a metric unique to this type of race"
I somewhat understand the rationale. I wonder why, after 29 years, it suddenly becomes important to note this metric for the first female finisher. I might be more inclined to accept it for a male finisher, although the "slow" end of the range comes down to differences of a few minutes (seven finishes over 59:30:00; only 00:04:48 between the two slowest).
For a female finisher, it's a lot less appropriate. It's a scientific fact that female runners have less stamina due to less muscle mass; this is clearly evidenced by the fact that it took 29 years for a female to finish (not for lack of strong female participants). To a great extent, of course she's the slowest finisher; it would be more notable if she weren't. It's at least as notable that hers is the fastest (only) female finish, and it seems to detract from that achievement to flag it as "slowest". To include this metric for Paris is to compare apples (men) to oranges (women), and I continue to oppose.
Unregistered editors cannot be pinged, so I will notify the other editor on their user talk page. ― Mandruss ☎ 04:09, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
people who know the Barkely are used to see the "slowest finish" in this article since many years. Sorry for "aggressive", which many call "assertive" or "direct". I'm an American. And I've spent many years editing American politics articles, where this style is unfortunately necessary. In any case, the "fun sarcasm" bit is a small part of my argument. (Mandruss editing logged out) 161.97.225.237 ( talk) 07:25, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
a concerning ignorance about these long-form races, where women do frequently outperform men- I confess to ignorance about any long-form races other than this one. I'm a dedicated non-runner. As empirical evidence, one finish in 26 doesn't seem to support "women do frequently outperform men". (Sure, the strongest women often beat the weakest men, but that's not the same thing. For a meaningful comparison, we have to look at the strongest of both, which is what the Finishers table does.) I looked for an explanation and couldn't come up with anything besides physiology. Is there something atypical about this particular race that strongly favors men? If men and women are equal in endurance running, why is it necessary to show separate stats (e.g. Boston Marathon)? Never mind endurance, why don't men and women compete against each other in Olympic track events? How much evidence do we need that men have a physical advantage? ― Mandruss ☎ 20:09, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
That lack of knowledge was odd, in tandem with not knowing the "slowest finish" metric had in fact been on this page before.By the way, it's bad form to criticize a fellow editor for a simple memory lapse that was immediately admitted and self-corrected. In my opinion. ― Mandruss ☎ 21:39, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
I don’t think the inclusion of a separate women’s table is relevant here. Imo there simply aren’t enough finishers to justify a separating anything and there’s enough info about Paris in the article to identify her accomplishment. There are no other differences or separate categories in the marathons, so why separate out the winners. PyropePe ( talk) 04:10, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
Also reviewing the direction of the conversation the separate table spawned from, I don’t believe statistical or scientific info about women’s performance in running in general is relevant. More concerned about how fixed time races are reported and how the Barkely marathons report themselves. PyropePe ( talk) 04:30, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
Likewise, who wants to hold two Barkley Marathonses every year? Not Cantrell, I expect. ― Mandruss ☎ 22:58, 26 March 2024 (UTC)Even when men and women compete side-by-side in events, which is often not the case, separate stats are maintained. They might as well be separate events and are combined only as a matter of convenience (who wants to hold two Boston Marathons every year?). Separate stats are maintained for the Boston, the New York, and, I strongly suspect, just about any major organized marathon. There is no rationale or justification for carving out an exception for the Barkley or for other less-known races like it.
|
Should Female finishers be recorded separately for the Barkley Marathons?
Re-listed. ― Mandruss ☎ 13:13, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
A number of related questions have come up on this article in the past few days due to Jasmin Paris recently becoming the first woman to complete the Barkley Marathons. Most sporting events keep stats separately based on gender but the Barkley Marathons don't make this distinction as they aren't part of any kind of larger organization or used as qualifiers for anything.
It's important to note that the table originally came from a discussion on labeling her time as the "slowest finish", a metric often recorded for fixed time races but could be seen as demeaning the first woman to finish the race to outsiders. Input on that subject is also appreciated. PyropePe ( talk) 03:29, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
a metric often recorded for fixed time races, but as a running "outsider" that carries relatively little weight for me. ― Mandruss ☎ 05:12, 29 March 2024 (UTC)