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Tertulian on baraliris Tertullian is the only one mentioning this character.And he quotes Callisthenes.
"and I further learn from Callisthenes that it was from the indication of a dream that Baraliris the Illyrian stretched his dominion from the Molossi to the frontiers of Macedon."
He probably is Bardyllis that attacked epirus and macedon after Dionysius I of Syracuse proded and aided him as to change the political situation in Greece.There is no baraliris charakter anywhere else and the acts described in Tertullian refer to the assault by Bardyllis. Megistias ( talk) 22:27, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
The events are described in Diodorus Siculus book 15. map of the attack. Megistias ( talk) 22:31, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Diodorus Siculus Hist.Bilbiotheca historica (lib. 1-20)Book 15 chapter 13 section 2 line 4- section 3 line 1--He sent to his allies 2000 soldiers and 500 Greek armors and the Illyrians gave them to the best of their troops and mixed the soldiers(the Greeks) with those of their own. The article is lacking and is full of errors Megistias ( talk) 19:33, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
I have added the Albanian name for 'Bardyllis' which is Bardhyll which literally means 'white star' (bardh=white, yll=star) hopefully this is ecceptable and if not please give a reason as to why. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Realmadrid123 ( talk • contribs) 14:32, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Bardyllis united the illyrians and attacked Greece defeating Macedonia and imposing a tax of submission in 385 he advanced still more deeply in Greece making attacks in Epirus as well. These attacks were coordinated from the Dionysius I of Syracuse a Tyrant that wanted to change the Molossian king with Alcetas I of Epirus that was exiled .He Intended to control the Ionian sea.The "Celtic" type army of Bardyllis had been strengthened with 2000 Greek soldiers of magna grecia and 500 bronze thoraxes for their Illyrians. The Epirotes were surprised and lost 15.000 men. At the possession of Epirus the Bardyllis acquired thousands bronze thoraxes and hoplite shields from epirotes that fought with the hoplite way .He began training his army in the hoplite way of battle. Simultaneously he overcame the king [Ptolemy of Aloros]] ruling Macedon that tried to free Macedon from the tax of submission. Afterwards he won his successor Perdiccas III of Macedon killing him. Perdiccas III of Macedon was the father of Phillipp , father of Alexander the Great. When the Spartans learned what happened to the Epirotes and that Dodona was defiled by the illyrians Agesilaus ventured against them and destroyed them completely forcing them to leave Epirus and Macedon.
The events are described by diodorus of Siculus book 15.
Can someone get a secondary source on this? The event doesn't seem to be that important to modern historians Megistias ( talk) 19:48, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Various IPs and short-lived accounts have repeatedly attempted to add an obvious folk etymology to the article, linking the name Bardyllis to modern Albanian. In this [1] edit, it was attempted to back this claim up with a ref to Google Translator. Let's clarify this once and for all: the existence of such a phrase in modern Albanian is beside the point, and references about that are worthless. What you would need is a reliable academic source actually proposing the link between this modern phrase and the ancient name. Such a source is unlikely to exist – it is quite obvious to any linguistically informed reader that such a link would be untenable. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:54, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
The reference for etymology white star in the book An Albanian historical grammar Author Stuart Edward Mann Publisher Buske, 1977 Original from the University of California Length 239 pages link
[2]
Aigest (
talk) 12:20, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
the article was absolutely terrible. Apparently written by somebody who has heard about this concept of "citing references" and trying to emulate it. I have tried to put it on its feet a little bit. The etymology thing is a random factoid about folk etymologies handed around in Albania, and it is perfectly worthless without context. -- dab (𒁳) 12:58, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
FPS asked for academic sources. He got three. Now the short lived accounts are becoming long lived. It's gotta be now FPS, Dab, and Athenean's burden of proof that this is folk etimology, which so far is only in their minds. -- Sulmues ( talk) 15:57, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
I wish the Albanian patriots could forget about the Iron Age for five minutes and try to get their economy on track instead: Patriotism is love of the homeland. I see little love of or benefit for the homeland in swamping the internet with crappy pseudo-etymologies. -- dab (𒁳) 13:02, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
I have yet to see a reliable source that the "star" etymology is taken seriously by any actual linguist. The one I see cited, saying that it is linked "by tradition", isn't ascribing that tradition to serious linguists. Based on common sense, and on what we know about the state of knowledge about Illyrian and about the supposed Illyrian–Albanian continuity, it is plain obvious that this is a folk etymology, and that no serious linguist in their right mind could possibly see a rational basis for assuming such an etymology as a matter of fact. In these circumstances, the principle of "extraordinary claims require extraordinary sourcing" applies, and stands against this etymology. "Folk etymology" goes back into the article, as far as I'm concerned. [By the way, I found a snippet hint on google that Krahe may have some actual discussion of the name somewhere, but I haven't been able to follow up on that yet.] Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:54, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
Just when I thought the folk etymology nonsense had stopped, it's starting again, courtesy of some users who simply won't let this go, using whatever sources they can scrape from the bottom of the barrel. Specifically:
In other words, classic gaming of WP:RS using outdated, off-line, or off-topic sources to push a particular POV. Athenean ( talk) 19:18, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
@Athenean
P.S. Contrary to your claim all sources were on-line. Rm them without checking first constitutes vandalism. Aigest ( talk) 07:33, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
And Another explained in details.
Publisher Rodopi, 1997 ISBN 9042001615, 9789042001619 page 90 Aigest ( talk) 07:59, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
um, Aigest in fact established that the "white star" etymology is nonsense. Aigest also showed a reference that a "white" etymology has been suggested by Kretschmer, and rejected as untenable by other scholars. Please either get it right or let it be. -- dab (𒁳) 12:22, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
There have been brought many sources about the etymological relation of the Albanian word bardh-ë with the name Bardylis. The sources can be found on above sections. Among other sources are Hans Krahe, Pavle Ivic and Paul Kretschmer. The current version connects it with a modern Albanian folk etymology about the word bardh and yll. If the sources say that the name is related to the word bardh-ë, why can't this be added? If there is a source that rejects it, add that too but why is this being exluded when all these scholars support it? We aren't supposed to choose what's right and wrong but state all cases and let the reader decide.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 13:04, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
From references is clear that bardh~white is accepted by scholars on Bardyllis, Bardulis and other forms (Krahe, Kretschmer, Mayer, Rosseti, Ivic, Demiraj) while white star is a popular etymology.
Bardyllis, Bardullis, Bardulis Bardh~White (IE bhrHg) etymology since 1930' to nowadays
Bardyllis, Bardullis, Bardulis Bardh Yll ~ White Star false etymology
I don't think Krahe, Kretschmer, Mayer, Rosseti, Ivic can be classified as POV pushers, moreover modern Albanians, so refrain yourself from blind reverting Athenean. Aigest ( talk) 07:28, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
@Aegist: I would appreciate to stop this edit warring activity while this rfc is open. Alexikoua ( talk) 12:52, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)Alexikoua Aigest is just using the sources. If you think that he's misusing them why don't give an explanation about how he's misusing them.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 15:18, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
The level of abuse of Google Books snippets has reached intolerable levels. The above example by User:Aigest is a case in point. Let's look analytically at all the snippets provided:
Thus, all I see are a couple of snippets from publications from the 50's, with the rest being either irrelevant, unintelligible, or non-existant. This is poor sourcing and research technique, and has a hint of desperation to it. I suppose I could live "Some 20th century linguists connect the name "Bardyllis" with Alb. "Bardhe".", but it should also be made clear that "King Whitestar" is folk etymology and nothing more. I think Anna's edit, with exception of some grammar, is a step in the right direction. Athenean ( talk) 02:12, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
I've removed the image that is supposed to be a modern reconstruction of Bardylis. Apart from its non-informative nature it's also subject to copyright violations, per freedom of Panorama in Albania. Alexikoua ( talk) 10:40, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
Gbooks hits:
I suggest a move to Bardylis.-- Zoupan 00:13, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Page moved: no objections Ground Zero | t 17:57, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
Bardyllis →
Bardylis – As shown by the previous section, the name of this person is mostly spelled with one "L" and not two.
Zoupan 08:08, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
This is an Albanian-English dictionary you may want to access here [ [10]]
There's a word 'bardhul' which actually seamlessly derives from something that Ancient Greeks might record as Bardylis. It means "whitish, hoary, grey-haired" in Albanian, and the meaning 'gray' has been also noted in Messapian according to the article. It is obviously derived from the word "bardhë", with a common Albanian suffix -ul.
Can this be noted in the text too? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.69.5.156 ( talk) 12:57, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
I would like to improve the article and elaborate a section about the debates on Bardylis' origins. The current text suggests without doubt that he was Dardanian, although this is nothing else, but N. G. L. Hammond's theory from 1966 that neither Pierre Cabanes, nor Albanian historiography accepted. To cut this short, the origins of Bardylis are not clarified at all, and the article should reflect this. Everyone is in agreement that Bardylis reigned the area around the Lyncistes Lakes, the areas that are historically called Enchele and Dassaretis. Back in 1877 Gustav Zippel suggested that he might have been a descendant of the ancient Enchelean kings (to whom the Trebeništa royal tombs supposedly belong), and this was taken over by other scholars, to be mentioned that Albanian historians prefer to refer to him as an Enchelean king to our days, or avoid to make a statement on his realm. Then in 1966 Hammond came and figured that he must have been a Dardanian, because he did not think that the economically poor (?) Dassaretis could have been his center, and also suggesting that the three major tribes of the Illyrians according to Strabon were the Ardiates, the Autariates and the Dardanians, so the powerful king must have belonged to one of this. There are several problems with this deduction. The Taulantians are not mentioned either by Strabon, yet they became the masters of South Illyria in the second half of the 3rd century BC. Dassaretis had a very important strategic location between Epirus and Macedonia, and Bardylis II restored the power of his grandfather specifically in Dassaretis (see the royal tombs in Selca e Poshtme), so Dassaretis should not be ignored as a possible center for the first Illyrian kings. The first Dardanian king mentioned by name in the ancient sources is Longarus about 150 years after Bardylis' time. The author great Illyrologist, Fanula Papazoglu suggested instead that Bardylis was a descendant of the Lyncestis dynasts (Sirras, etc.), whereas Miltiades Hatzopulos in 1984 recommended that Bardylis was a Dassaretian king, and Pierre Cabanes, the monographist of the Illyrian Kingdom also accepted this thesis. This is the picture in a nutshell, the current article should be improved accordingly. Pasztilla ( talk) 11:29, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
PowerlockeDurim: Please make yourself acquainted with WP:BRD: When your Bold edit here was Reverted here, your next step should be to start a Discussion in the talk page. Please also read WP:CONSENSUS and WP:EDITWAR. I have reverted back to the current consensus version and started the discussion for you.
What you call ancient illyrian usage
(bardh=white+yll=star) is one of the possible etymologies discussed in the section "Etymology", where it is stated that reliable sources consider it a folk etymology. And even if it can be shown that this is a correct etymology, this discussion should be kept in the "Etymology" section. The modern Albanian name does still not merit a place in the lede.
In Wikipedia, we follow the usage of reliable sources in English, see WP:RS. If you can show that reliable English-language sources use the modern Albanian version of the name, it will be added. If not, it stays out. -- T*U ( talk) 06:10, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Tertulian on baraliris Tertullian is the only one mentioning this character.And he quotes Callisthenes.
"and I further learn from Callisthenes that it was from the indication of a dream that Baraliris the Illyrian stretched his dominion from the Molossi to the frontiers of Macedon."
He probably is Bardyllis that attacked epirus and macedon after Dionysius I of Syracuse proded and aided him as to change the political situation in Greece.There is no baraliris charakter anywhere else and the acts described in Tertullian refer to the assault by Bardyllis. Megistias ( talk) 22:27, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
The events are described in Diodorus Siculus book 15. map of the attack. Megistias ( talk) 22:31, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Diodorus Siculus Hist.Bilbiotheca historica (lib. 1-20)Book 15 chapter 13 section 2 line 4- section 3 line 1--He sent to his allies 2000 soldiers and 500 Greek armors and the Illyrians gave them to the best of their troops and mixed the soldiers(the Greeks) with those of their own. The article is lacking and is full of errors Megistias ( talk) 19:33, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
I have added the Albanian name for 'Bardyllis' which is Bardhyll which literally means 'white star' (bardh=white, yll=star) hopefully this is ecceptable and if not please give a reason as to why. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Realmadrid123 ( talk • contribs) 14:32, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Bardyllis united the illyrians and attacked Greece defeating Macedonia and imposing a tax of submission in 385 he advanced still more deeply in Greece making attacks in Epirus as well. These attacks were coordinated from the Dionysius I of Syracuse a Tyrant that wanted to change the Molossian king with Alcetas I of Epirus that was exiled .He Intended to control the Ionian sea.The "Celtic" type army of Bardyllis had been strengthened with 2000 Greek soldiers of magna grecia and 500 bronze thoraxes for their Illyrians. The Epirotes were surprised and lost 15.000 men. At the possession of Epirus the Bardyllis acquired thousands bronze thoraxes and hoplite shields from epirotes that fought with the hoplite way .He began training his army in the hoplite way of battle. Simultaneously he overcame the king [Ptolemy of Aloros]] ruling Macedon that tried to free Macedon from the tax of submission. Afterwards he won his successor Perdiccas III of Macedon killing him. Perdiccas III of Macedon was the father of Phillipp , father of Alexander the Great. When the Spartans learned what happened to the Epirotes and that Dodona was defiled by the illyrians Agesilaus ventured against them and destroyed them completely forcing them to leave Epirus and Macedon.
The events are described by diodorus of Siculus book 15.
Can someone get a secondary source on this? The event doesn't seem to be that important to modern historians Megistias ( talk) 19:48, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Various IPs and short-lived accounts have repeatedly attempted to add an obvious folk etymology to the article, linking the name Bardyllis to modern Albanian. In this [1] edit, it was attempted to back this claim up with a ref to Google Translator. Let's clarify this once and for all: the existence of such a phrase in modern Albanian is beside the point, and references about that are worthless. What you would need is a reliable academic source actually proposing the link between this modern phrase and the ancient name. Such a source is unlikely to exist – it is quite obvious to any linguistically informed reader that such a link would be untenable. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:54, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
The reference for etymology white star in the book An Albanian historical grammar Author Stuart Edward Mann Publisher Buske, 1977 Original from the University of California Length 239 pages link
[2]
Aigest (
talk) 12:20, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
the article was absolutely terrible. Apparently written by somebody who has heard about this concept of "citing references" and trying to emulate it. I have tried to put it on its feet a little bit. The etymology thing is a random factoid about folk etymologies handed around in Albania, and it is perfectly worthless without context. -- dab (𒁳) 12:58, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
FPS asked for academic sources. He got three. Now the short lived accounts are becoming long lived. It's gotta be now FPS, Dab, and Athenean's burden of proof that this is folk etimology, which so far is only in their minds. -- Sulmues ( talk) 15:57, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
I wish the Albanian patriots could forget about the Iron Age for five minutes and try to get their economy on track instead: Patriotism is love of the homeland. I see little love of or benefit for the homeland in swamping the internet with crappy pseudo-etymologies. -- dab (𒁳) 13:02, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
I have yet to see a reliable source that the "star" etymology is taken seriously by any actual linguist. The one I see cited, saying that it is linked "by tradition", isn't ascribing that tradition to serious linguists. Based on common sense, and on what we know about the state of knowledge about Illyrian and about the supposed Illyrian–Albanian continuity, it is plain obvious that this is a folk etymology, and that no serious linguist in their right mind could possibly see a rational basis for assuming such an etymology as a matter of fact. In these circumstances, the principle of "extraordinary claims require extraordinary sourcing" applies, and stands against this etymology. "Folk etymology" goes back into the article, as far as I'm concerned. [By the way, I found a snippet hint on google that Krahe may have some actual discussion of the name somewhere, but I haven't been able to follow up on that yet.] Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:54, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
Just when I thought the folk etymology nonsense had stopped, it's starting again, courtesy of some users who simply won't let this go, using whatever sources they can scrape from the bottom of the barrel. Specifically:
In other words, classic gaming of WP:RS using outdated, off-line, or off-topic sources to push a particular POV. Athenean ( talk) 19:18, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
@Athenean
P.S. Contrary to your claim all sources were on-line. Rm them without checking first constitutes vandalism. Aigest ( talk) 07:33, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
And Another explained in details.
Publisher Rodopi, 1997 ISBN 9042001615, 9789042001619 page 90 Aigest ( talk) 07:59, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
um, Aigest in fact established that the "white star" etymology is nonsense. Aigest also showed a reference that a "white" etymology has been suggested by Kretschmer, and rejected as untenable by other scholars. Please either get it right or let it be. -- dab (𒁳) 12:22, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
There have been brought many sources about the etymological relation of the Albanian word bardh-ë with the name Bardylis. The sources can be found on above sections. Among other sources are Hans Krahe, Pavle Ivic and Paul Kretschmer. The current version connects it with a modern Albanian folk etymology about the word bardh and yll. If the sources say that the name is related to the word bardh-ë, why can't this be added? If there is a source that rejects it, add that too but why is this being exluded when all these scholars support it? We aren't supposed to choose what's right and wrong but state all cases and let the reader decide.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 13:04, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
From references is clear that bardh~white is accepted by scholars on Bardyllis, Bardulis and other forms (Krahe, Kretschmer, Mayer, Rosseti, Ivic, Demiraj) while white star is a popular etymology.
Bardyllis, Bardullis, Bardulis Bardh~White (IE bhrHg) etymology since 1930' to nowadays
Bardyllis, Bardullis, Bardulis Bardh Yll ~ White Star false etymology
I don't think Krahe, Kretschmer, Mayer, Rosseti, Ivic can be classified as POV pushers, moreover modern Albanians, so refrain yourself from blind reverting Athenean. Aigest ( talk) 07:28, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
@Aegist: I would appreciate to stop this edit warring activity while this rfc is open. Alexikoua ( talk) 12:52, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
(unindent)Alexikoua Aigest is just using the sources. If you think that he's misusing them why don't give an explanation about how he's misusing them.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 15:18, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
The level of abuse of Google Books snippets has reached intolerable levels. The above example by User:Aigest is a case in point. Let's look analytically at all the snippets provided:
Thus, all I see are a couple of snippets from publications from the 50's, with the rest being either irrelevant, unintelligible, or non-existant. This is poor sourcing and research technique, and has a hint of desperation to it. I suppose I could live "Some 20th century linguists connect the name "Bardyllis" with Alb. "Bardhe".", but it should also be made clear that "King Whitestar" is folk etymology and nothing more. I think Anna's edit, with exception of some grammar, is a step in the right direction. Athenean ( talk) 02:12, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
I've removed the image that is supposed to be a modern reconstruction of Bardylis. Apart from its non-informative nature it's also subject to copyright violations, per freedom of Panorama in Albania. Alexikoua ( talk) 10:40, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
Gbooks hits:
I suggest a move to Bardylis.-- Zoupan 00:13, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Page moved: no objections Ground Zero | t 17:57, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
Bardyllis →
Bardylis – As shown by the previous section, the name of this person is mostly spelled with one "L" and not two.
Zoupan 08:08, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
This is an Albanian-English dictionary you may want to access here [ [10]]
There's a word 'bardhul' which actually seamlessly derives from something that Ancient Greeks might record as Bardylis. It means "whitish, hoary, grey-haired" in Albanian, and the meaning 'gray' has been also noted in Messapian according to the article. It is obviously derived from the word "bardhë", with a common Albanian suffix -ul.
Can this be noted in the text too? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.69.5.156 ( talk) 12:57, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
I would like to improve the article and elaborate a section about the debates on Bardylis' origins. The current text suggests without doubt that he was Dardanian, although this is nothing else, but N. G. L. Hammond's theory from 1966 that neither Pierre Cabanes, nor Albanian historiography accepted. To cut this short, the origins of Bardylis are not clarified at all, and the article should reflect this. Everyone is in agreement that Bardylis reigned the area around the Lyncistes Lakes, the areas that are historically called Enchele and Dassaretis. Back in 1877 Gustav Zippel suggested that he might have been a descendant of the ancient Enchelean kings (to whom the Trebeništa royal tombs supposedly belong), and this was taken over by other scholars, to be mentioned that Albanian historians prefer to refer to him as an Enchelean king to our days, or avoid to make a statement on his realm. Then in 1966 Hammond came and figured that he must have been a Dardanian, because he did not think that the economically poor (?) Dassaretis could have been his center, and also suggesting that the three major tribes of the Illyrians according to Strabon were the Ardiates, the Autariates and the Dardanians, so the powerful king must have belonged to one of this. There are several problems with this deduction. The Taulantians are not mentioned either by Strabon, yet they became the masters of South Illyria in the second half of the 3rd century BC. Dassaretis had a very important strategic location between Epirus and Macedonia, and Bardylis II restored the power of his grandfather specifically in Dassaretis (see the royal tombs in Selca e Poshtme), so Dassaretis should not be ignored as a possible center for the first Illyrian kings. The first Dardanian king mentioned by name in the ancient sources is Longarus about 150 years after Bardylis' time. The author great Illyrologist, Fanula Papazoglu suggested instead that Bardylis was a descendant of the Lyncestis dynasts (Sirras, etc.), whereas Miltiades Hatzopulos in 1984 recommended that Bardylis was a Dassaretian king, and Pierre Cabanes, the monographist of the Illyrian Kingdom also accepted this thesis. This is the picture in a nutshell, the current article should be improved accordingly. Pasztilla ( talk) 11:29, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
PowerlockeDurim: Please make yourself acquainted with WP:BRD: When your Bold edit here was Reverted here, your next step should be to start a Discussion in the talk page. Please also read WP:CONSENSUS and WP:EDITWAR. I have reverted back to the current consensus version and started the discussion for you.
What you call ancient illyrian usage
(bardh=white+yll=star) is one of the possible etymologies discussed in the section "Etymology", where it is stated that reliable sources consider it a folk etymology. And even if it can be shown that this is a correct etymology, this discussion should be kept in the "Etymology" section. The modern Albanian name does still not merit a place in the lede.
In Wikipedia, we follow the usage of reliable sources in English, see WP:RS. If you can show that reliable English-language sources use the modern Albanian version of the name, it will be added. If not, it stays out. -- T*U ( talk) 06:10, 10 May 2019 (UTC)