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This page needs further improvement. I’m going to return to it as soon as I’ve finished my work on the Georgian Bagratids. Kober 08:41, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Dear Kober;
Congratulations! It was an excellent article about the Bagratuni Kings. I tried to add the lands that Bagratuni Kings owned and/or controlled and what I added was according to the map of the Bagratuni Kingdom. Please read bellow what I added:
The Bagratuni or Bagratid (Armenian: Բագրատունի) royal dynasty of Armenia was a royal family whose branches formerly ruled many regional polities, including the Armenian lands of Sper|presently Ispir in Tayk Province, Bagrevand, Ani, Kingdom of Lori|Tashir-Dzoraget, Artsakh, Syunik, Vaspurakan Province, Turuberan Province, Ayrarat Province, Vanand, Mamikonian lands of Taron |(historic Armenia) Taron Province, Corduene, Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia, and Bagrationi branch of Kings of Caucasian Iberia|Georgia.
I think that Bagrationi Kings of Georgia should not be looked at as if they are of different stock or ethnicity because Bagrationi are not even an offshoot of the Bagratuni, although they can be seen as an offshoot of Bagratuni, but they are the same as Bagratuni Kings. The Bagratuni Family owned and/or controlled lands from Georgia (a country that was a place of many kingdoms such as Iberia or Iveria, Kartli and Kakheti possibly related to Caucasian people or related to Iberian people, Lazica and Colchis|northeastern Anatolian people, Sveni|southwestern Caucasian people, Tao-Klarjeti|Tayk Armenians or Diaukhi Urartian, thus Armenian people, Mtskheta|Metskhet, and etc.) was unified under Ashot III Bagratuni King of Armenia, and his son Kiurike or Giurige|Georgi (979 - 989 A.D.) who was the King of Lori. His (Giurige|Georgi's) son David I (Anhogh meaning Landless in Armenian) became the King of the new Kingdom named Georgia. Therefore, the Bagrationi should be considered same as Bagratuni, branch of Georgia, or simply an offshoot of the Armenian Bagratuni Family. Ashot III's sons Smbat II and Gagik I were brothers of Georgi and Kings of Armenia.
Mtskheta or Metskhet is the Armenian version of the Urartian Diaukhi or Tiaukhi, where Dia or Tia (this kind of spelling still exists in Western Armenian because the Western Armenian does confuse G with K with Q, D with T, and etc.) means Mets in Armenian or Great in English and uhi or ukhi meaning Heaven in Hurrian and Urartian languages; therefore, Diaukhi means Great Heaven. There were and are many cities and places in historic Armenian Highland and in Armenian Republic named with Mets adjective to describe the greatness of it. For example, Mets Masis is referred to Mountain Ararat, Mtsbin, and etc.
With all due respect to Georgians, who (Iberians) were always a vassal Kingdom of Armenia, Persia, or Byzantium until they became a strong Kingdom under the Bagratuni Kings, should stop referring to Armenian lands (Tayk Province as Tao, Armenian Gugark Province, parts of Armenian Taron and Kars as Klarjeti, Armenian Javakhq as Javakheti, and etc.) as Georgian because these lands were always Armenian and only became part of the Bagratuni Georgian and Armenian Kingdom as property of the Bagratuni Family for a short period of time. Kars Gubernia, together with Artsakh or Karabakh, and Nakhichevan were part of the Democratic Republic of Armenia when the newly formed Soviet Union took control of the area. Stalin convinced Lenin to partition the Armenian lands in early 1920s and the injustice continues by the current, post-Soviet Union, Georgian Republic, Turkey, and current, post-Soviet Union, Azerbaijan Republic. The Armenian lands that are presently in Turkey are taken into consideration that Turks will do whatever that they can get away with; however, until such time that Armenians will succeed in regaining control of those lands.
At least the truth about the Armenian lands should be written next to the fairy tales created by the Georgian, Turk, and Azeri-Tatar people who write articles in Wikipedia. Let the readers be able to read the truth next to their fictions and hopefully the readers can figure out what is right and what is wrong...
Best Regards,
Garegin Nalbandian
P.S. Please let me know if you need my contact information and / or more information regarding Armenian history. Thank you for your time! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gareginnalbandian ( talk • contribs) 03:55, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
Dear Mr. Nalbandian, your words remind me of an old Georgian joke: Georgian poet says: my verses are so good that the Armenians claim I have Armenian roots. -- 95.104.115.74 ( talk) 10:29, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
Parishan, you know talk pages are created to make comments and discuss the article. Making extra copies of the same article just to make a comment is hurting wikipedia. Regarding my revert. You are removing a material from the article based on a visual map. Unless you want to show us real academic sources, please don't disturb the article. VartanM 02:16, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Kober Armenian Bagratids didn't control all of that region, but there were some parts they did control that are put under Iberia, like Tayk. It's WP:OR to change the source's map, and the edited version is objectively incorrect because it puts regions controlled by Armenia such as Tayk during this time period as under Iberia instead. Please revert yourself. ZaniGiovanni ( talk) 09:58, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
Tayk’-Tao. – Originally Mamikonid (?). – To Pharnabazid Iberia IVth/IIIrd c. BC. – To Artaxiad Armenia: IInd c. BC. – Mamikonid. – Upper Tao Bagratid and Lower Tao Iberian Guaramid: after 772. – Lower Tao and Asisp’ori (from Upper Tao), in part at least, (Iberian) Bagratid: 787/807. – Entire Tao (Iberian) Bagratid: 813/30. – Toumanoff, Studies, p. 498
Sometime between 786 and 807, Lower Tao, together with Arseac’p’or (Geo.: Asisp’ori) in Upper Tao, passed to the Iberian branch of the Bagratids and by 813 all of Tao, both Upper and Lower, was in their hands. From this time onwards Tao remained in the Iberian rather than the Armenian sphere. – Hewsen, The Geography of Anasias of Sirak, p. 208.
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This page needs further improvement. I’m going to return to it as soon as I’ve finished my work on the Georgian Bagratids. Kober 08:41, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Dear Kober;
Congratulations! It was an excellent article about the Bagratuni Kings. I tried to add the lands that Bagratuni Kings owned and/or controlled and what I added was according to the map of the Bagratuni Kingdom. Please read bellow what I added:
The Bagratuni or Bagratid (Armenian: Բագրատունի) royal dynasty of Armenia was a royal family whose branches formerly ruled many regional polities, including the Armenian lands of Sper|presently Ispir in Tayk Province, Bagrevand, Ani, Kingdom of Lori|Tashir-Dzoraget, Artsakh, Syunik, Vaspurakan Province, Turuberan Province, Ayrarat Province, Vanand, Mamikonian lands of Taron |(historic Armenia) Taron Province, Corduene, Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia, and Bagrationi branch of Kings of Caucasian Iberia|Georgia.
I think that Bagrationi Kings of Georgia should not be looked at as if they are of different stock or ethnicity because Bagrationi are not even an offshoot of the Bagratuni, although they can be seen as an offshoot of Bagratuni, but they are the same as Bagratuni Kings. The Bagratuni Family owned and/or controlled lands from Georgia (a country that was a place of many kingdoms such as Iberia or Iveria, Kartli and Kakheti possibly related to Caucasian people or related to Iberian people, Lazica and Colchis|northeastern Anatolian people, Sveni|southwestern Caucasian people, Tao-Klarjeti|Tayk Armenians or Diaukhi Urartian, thus Armenian people, Mtskheta|Metskhet, and etc.) was unified under Ashot III Bagratuni King of Armenia, and his son Kiurike or Giurige|Georgi (979 - 989 A.D.) who was the King of Lori. His (Giurige|Georgi's) son David I (Anhogh meaning Landless in Armenian) became the King of the new Kingdom named Georgia. Therefore, the Bagrationi should be considered same as Bagratuni, branch of Georgia, or simply an offshoot of the Armenian Bagratuni Family. Ashot III's sons Smbat II and Gagik I were brothers of Georgi and Kings of Armenia.
Mtskheta or Metskhet is the Armenian version of the Urartian Diaukhi or Tiaukhi, where Dia or Tia (this kind of spelling still exists in Western Armenian because the Western Armenian does confuse G with K with Q, D with T, and etc.) means Mets in Armenian or Great in English and uhi or ukhi meaning Heaven in Hurrian and Urartian languages; therefore, Diaukhi means Great Heaven. There were and are many cities and places in historic Armenian Highland and in Armenian Republic named with Mets adjective to describe the greatness of it. For example, Mets Masis is referred to Mountain Ararat, Mtsbin, and etc.
With all due respect to Georgians, who (Iberians) were always a vassal Kingdom of Armenia, Persia, or Byzantium until they became a strong Kingdom under the Bagratuni Kings, should stop referring to Armenian lands (Tayk Province as Tao, Armenian Gugark Province, parts of Armenian Taron and Kars as Klarjeti, Armenian Javakhq as Javakheti, and etc.) as Georgian because these lands were always Armenian and only became part of the Bagratuni Georgian and Armenian Kingdom as property of the Bagratuni Family for a short period of time. Kars Gubernia, together with Artsakh or Karabakh, and Nakhichevan were part of the Democratic Republic of Armenia when the newly formed Soviet Union took control of the area. Stalin convinced Lenin to partition the Armenian lands in early 1920s and the injustice continues by the current, post-Soviet Union, Georgian Republic, Turkey, and current, post-Soviet Union, Azerbaijan Republic. The Armenian lands that are presently in Turkey are taken into consideration that Turks will do whatever that they can get away with; however, until such time that Armenians will succeed in regaining control of those lands.
At least the truth about the Armenian lands should be written next to the fairy tales created by the Georgian, Turk, and Azeri-Tatar people who write articles in Wikipedia. Let the readers be able to read the truth next to their fictions and hopefully the readers can figure out what is right and what is wrong...
Best Regards,
Garegin Nalbandian
P.S. Please let me know if you need my contact information and / or more information regarding Armenian history. Thank you for your time! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gareginnalbandian ( talk • contribs) 03:55, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
Dear Mr. Nalbandian, your words remind me of an old Georgian joke: Georgian poet says: my verses are so good that the Armenians claim I have Armenian roots. -- 95.104.115.74 ( talk) 10:29, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
Parishan, you know talk pages are created to make comments and discuss the article. Making extra copies of the same article just to make a comment is hurting wikipedia. Regarding my revert. You are removing a material from the article based on a visual map. Unless you want to show us real academic sources, please don't disturb the article. VartanM 02:16, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Kober Armenian Bagratids didn't control all of that region, but there were some parts they did control that are put under Iberia, like Tayk. It's WP:OR to change the source's map, and the edited version is objectively incorrect because it puts regions controlled by Armenia such as Tayk during this time period as under Iberia instead. Please revert yourself. ZaniGiovanni ( talk) 09:58, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
Tayk’-Tao. – Originally Mamikonid (?). – To Pharnabazid Iberia IVth/IIIrd c. BC. – To Artaxiad Armenia: IInd c. BC. – Mamikonid. – Upper Tao Bagratid and Lower Tao Iberian Guaramid: after 772. – Lower Tao and Asisp’ori (from Upper Tao), in part at least, (Iberian) Bagratid: 787/807. – Entire Tao (Iberian) Bagratid: 813/30. – Toumanoff, Studies, p. 498
Sometime between 786 and 807, Lower Tao, together with Arseac’p’or (Geo.: Asisp’ori) in Upper Tao, passed to the Iberian branch of the Bagratids and by 813 all of Tao, both Upper and Lower, was in their hands. From this time onwards Tao remained in the Iberian rather than the Armenian sphere. – Hewsen, The Geography of Anasias of Sirak, p. 208.