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I think we should be cautious about renaming the airport in the article. While I for one look forward to the day that Saddam is no longer the legal head of government, in strict international law he still is, for the time being. As such, to accept the renaming of an airport in a state by an external army who has conquered it, as opposed to using the official name as given by the still lawful (even if repulsive) government of Iraq, is highly POV, because it is accepting the validity of the US invasion, something which many states, many users and many lawyers say is wrong in international law. In one week or two perhaps, when Saddam is overthrown and is no longer the legal head of state, the article name should be changed. But to change it ahead of that is premature and in implicitly accepting the validity of the renaming, wikipedia is coming down on one side of a conflict. As an encyclopædia we should not be doing that, any more than we should say have renamed an article on the Falklands Islands the Malvinas after Argentina's capture of them, or accepted Iraqi renaming of Kuwait a decade ago. The best solution in these instances is to only change nomenclature when a legally authorised state makes the change and too many legal questions arise over the whole Iraq war. Caution is always the best approach. Perhaps the article should simply be called 'Baghdad Airport', stating that the Iraq government calls it 'X' while the Americans, who now have control, call it 'Y', and leaving it up to later developments before formally accepting the renaming. Saddam's fall is inevitable, but we still have to wait for it. Wiki is an encyclopædia, not a newspaper and we have to perform to encyclopædic standards, not the sort of POV editorialising that many papers follow, depending on their stance in the war, and whether the readership they sell to are pro- or anti-war. STÓD/ÉÍRE 20:51 Apr 4, 2003 (UTC)
I've NPOVed the article over nomenclature by using both terms in the opening paragraph, used the neutral Baghdad airport (small 'a') in the body of the text, and at the end explained why there are now two names, one used by Iraq and one used by the Coalition forces, with the final decision on which name is ultimately used depending on the survival or otherwise of the Saddam regime. In that way, the article doesn't take sides on the issue of which is the right name, merely explains what is the current sitiuation from a coalition and arab perspective, while stating what will probably be the decider on which name survives. When Saddam falls and the coalition wins, their name by definition will then have international legitimacy and can be unambiguously used. STÓD/ÉÍRE 23:13 Apr 4, 2003 (UTC)
After discussing it with Ed Poor (who initially changed the name) I have renamed the article Baghdad airport. The reasons are:
I'm curious: does the airport renaming meaning anything to anyone besides Wikipedians dilligently striving for neutrality? I feel like, if I were pro-Sadam, I might view the renaming not as a gross offsense, but rather as a bumbling error, by those "idiot invaders", who refuse to learn the "correct name". -- Ryguasu 02:47 Apr 5, 2003 (UTC)
It is a very clever propagandistic psychological move, one which many states follow in war situations. You seize a major place of importance and rename it - it is your way of sending the message 'you're no longer in control mate. Screw you'. Towards Saddam, it is sending the two-fingers. Towards the rest of Iraq who may hear about it on international radio broadcasts, it is a way of saying 'See. His days are numbered. His name is gone from the airport. It will be all gone soon.' To the rest of the world it is a way of saying - 'look at how much we control! We are winning this and are systematically stripping down his symbols.' It is like if the Russians invaded the US (OK - I know their army these days couldn't fight its way into a snickers bar) and renamed Ronald Reagan Airport. Imagine how that would be seen. Or when Argentina renamed the Falklands Islands, again to say 'fuck you, Britain. These are ours now.'
But it is all for show. The US has no legal right to name an Iraqi milk-churn, let alone an airport. Only an Iraqi government can do that. And Saddam for the time being is still running the Iraqi government. Wiki using what is not actually the real name but a propagandistic name would be decidedly POV. This deliberately factual name Baghdad+airport avoids problems with going back to Saddam International (which would produce a renaming war!) or of using a propagandistic US alternative. STÓD/ÉÍRE 04:03 Apr 5, 2003 (UTC)
Oy. I renamed without seeing the discussion. I'll redirect back to Baghdad airport. Sorry. -- Zoe
What do legalities, especially international law, have to do with anything? Wikipedia is about de facto (which is NPOV) not de jure (which is the legal POV). We are not an organ of the UN. Also, the airport is an international airport in any case. Does anyone here have any doubts that the airport will be Baghdad International Airport for some time? Is there any evidence Saddam is still running anything at this point?
dml
There are still substantial doubts in many quarters, and there is indeed evidence that Saddam is still running some things - Baghdad and the Iraqi army, most significantly. I believe this article should be left at its current "neutral" location; it can always be moved weeks or months from now, when the fighting is over and a clear authority has been determined. It's too early and uncertain right now to settle on anything, for all we know tomorrow the airport could be completely destroyed by some unexpected weapon of mass destruction rendering the naming issue entirely moot. Bryan
The April 4th event should be removed. One wouldn't want someone to look at this article later in the future and actually believe the the Iraqis were seriously planning a counter-attack on the airport. A counter-attack will never happen (at least not one significant enough that it can even be called an attack), and there is no need to just quote Iraqi propaganda (or US propaganda). If we quoted Iraqi propaganda every day, the articles would be a mess. Lets just report on the facts, not on speculation. The Iraqis have not coutner-attacked YET, so why mention that they SAY they are going to counter-attack. And by "they" I really only mean the information minister because he's the only one that says this ludicrous things. dave 07:05 Apr 7, 2003 (UTC)
Hey I just wanted to say Im happy to see everyone is reading the page I began writing. Thank you and God bless you all!
Antonio Loco en la Cabeza Martin
I don't care who owns what or who has the "right" to name something. Let's just write an article about the airport in question.
Sure, a controversy began in early April 2003 over the "real name" of Saddam International Airport, and I probably contributed more than my share to the fuss. But after thinking it over, I guess it doesn't matter what the article is called. It just has to mention both names and describe the controversy a bit.
So I vote to move the bulk of the April 8th version of this article to either:
In a few weeks or months, one side or another will win the war and the airport will either return to SIA or keep BIA. No biggie. -- Uncle Ed 18:53 Apr 8, 2003 (UTC)
I think it would be wrong to make the move now. The days of Saddam International Airport are numbered, but it still isn't Baghdad International Airport and won't be until a duly authorised authority formally names it that. There is talk that a new Iraqi authority or a UN mandate may not be in place until July. In such circumstances, calling this article Saddam . . . would look POV in still refusing to accept the war's outcome, while a proper new name probably won't come into formal being until then, though international usage may make BII acceptable quicker, or another name may come into being. My vote is to leave it here in neutral territory for now and let events pan out. Moving it now would be a mistake and whatever you pick you look POV. STÓD/ÉÍRE 19:21 Apr 8, 2003 (UTC)
How does someone "look point-of-view"? That makes no sense. I agree with your position, though. -- The Cunctator
I think he meant "non-neutral", i.e., not from the NPOV. Several Wikipedians have adopted POV as an adjective, even though when you expand the abbreviation it sounds odd. Still, I prefer it to "non-NPOV" :-) -- Uncle Ed
Silly remark: the article, as such, supposed that the reader knew who Saddam Hussein was. While, currently, anybody who follows international news knows who he is (or was), in 10 years' time many people will perhaps not know who this mysterious Saddam is. David.Monniaux 12:10, 21 Sep 2003 (UTC)
BBC Burgundavia ( ✈ take a flight?) 19:33, Jun 25, 2005 (UTC)
"There are still renovations on-going throughout the airport to return it to its former self."
In what ways does renaming the airport, building burger kings and renaming the terminals contribute to returning the airport to its former self? I doubt that it's being returned to its former self (i.e. what it was when it was finished in 1982). That would mean changing the name back to Saddam International Airport. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.49.226.61 ( talk • contribs) 16:54, November 6, 2005 (UTC)
I guess I'm just plain lost--how is it that people who've never been there in recent times comment on it? It IS called BIAP. And anyone whos been there recently will tell you that the place is still trashed and smelly--although mostly due to its iraqi customers, (the smelly part). and to the nutsack that keeps deleting photos due to Title 8, go smoke a pole you looser...we've been dying for armchair warriors like you. If you don't like it, the try deleting on our doorsteps. Friggin intern flunkie--must be fresh out of college. REMF.
When did Air Canada ever fly to Baghdad? I don't think they ever flew to Middle Eastern destinations, except for Tel Aviv. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.240.133.0 ( talk) 07:24, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
This article is a mess... why the annual info on who started or didn't start what. If we want to speculate till the cows come home on every Wiki article like this one they would all be long winded with no fact. Can we leave new flight discussion to ones that are PURELY announced and end up on OAG and CRS systems? (e.g. not some marketing guy at Whatever Air taking about flying to Iraq next year to one blog guy)... e.g. PROPER reference able links or verifiable info. Some paper stating "a guy said this" isn't verifiable.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.4.247.149 ( talk) 20:43, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
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Wow, a lot of stale info now with US pullout, any attempted changes get auto-reverted when I tried them last month... Anyone want to make an effort to help clean this up with those of us willing to put factual info together? -- 98.164.192.18 ( talk) 20:35, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
Above Still true. Anyone who’s seen it knows there’s more there than this article. WillieHowardCO67 ( talk) 02:03, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Baghdad International Airport article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I think we should be cautious about renaming the airport in the article. While I for one look forward to the day that Saddam is no longer the legal head of government, in strict international law he still is, for the time being. As such, to accept the renaming of an airport in a state by an external army who has conquered it, as opposed to using the official name as given by the still lawful (even if repulsive) government of Iraq, is highly POV, because it is accepting the validity of the US invasion, something which many states, many users and many lawyers say is wrong in international law. In one week or two perhaps, when Saddam is overthrown and is no longer the legal head of state, the article name should be changed. But to change it ahead of that is premature and in implicitly accepting the validity of the renaming, wikipedia is coming down on one side of a conflict. As an encyclopædia we should not be doing that, any more than we should say have renamed an article on the Falklands Islands the Malvinas after Argentina's capture of them, or accepted Iraqi renaming of Kuwait a decade ago. The best solution in these instances is to only change nomenclature when a legally authorised state makes the change and too many legal questions arise over the whole Iraq war. Caution is always the best approach. Perhaps the article should simply be called 'Baghdad Airport', stating that the Iraq government calls it 'X' while the Americans, who now have control, call it 'Y', and leaving it up to later developments before formally accepting the renaming. Saddam's fall is inevitable, but we still have to wait for it. Wiki is an encyclopædia, not a newspaper and we have to perform to encyclopædic standards, not the sort of POV editorialising that many papers follow, depending on their stance in the war, and whether the readership they sell to are pro- or anti-war. STÓD/ÉÍRE 20:51 Apr 4, 2003 (UTC)
I've NPOVed the article over nomenclature by using both terms in the opening paragraph, used the neutral Baghdad airport (small 'a') in the body of the text, and at the end explained why there are now two names, one used by Iraq and one used by the Coalition forces, with the final decision on which name is ultimately used depending on the survival or otherwise of the Saddam regime. In that way, the article doesn't take sides on the issue of which is the right name, merely explains what is the current sitiuation from a coalition and arab perspective, while stating what will probably be the decider on which name survives. When Saddam falls and the coalition wins, their name by definition will then have international legitimacy and can be unambiguously used. STÓD/ÉÍRE 23:13 Apr 4, 2003 (UTC)
After discussing it with Ed Poor (who initially changed the name) I have renamed the article Baghdad airport. The reasons are:
I'm curious: does the airport renaming meaning anything to anyone besides Wikipedians dilligently striving for neutrality? I feel like, if I were pro-Sadam, I might view the renaming not as a gross offsense, but rather as a bumbling error, by those "idiot invaders", who refuse to learn the "correct name". -- Ryguasu 02:47 Apr 5, 2003 (UTC)
It is a very clever propagandistic psychological move, one which many states follow in war situations. You seize a major place of importance and rename it - it is your way of sending the message 'you're no longer in control mate. Screw you'. Towards Saddam, it is sending the two-fingers. Towards the rest of Iraq who may hear about it on international radio broadcasts, it is a way of saying 'See. His days are numbered. His name is gone from the airport. It will be all gone soon.' To the rest of the world it is a way of saying - 'look at how much we control! We are winning this and are systematically stripping down his symbols.' It is like if the Russians invaded the US (OK - I know their army these days couldn't fight its way into a snickers bar) and renamed Ronald Reagan Airport. Imagine how that would be seen. Or when Argentina renamed the Falklands Islands, again to say 'fuck you, Britain. These are ours now.'
But it is all for show. The US has no legal right to name an Iraqi milk-churn, let alone an airport. Only an Iraqi government can do that. And Saddam for the time being is still running the Iraqi government. Wiki using what is not actually the real name but a propagandistic name would be decidedly POV. This deliberately factual name Baghdad+airport avoids problems with going back to Saddam International (which would produce a renaming war!) or of using a propagandistic US alternative. STÓD/ÉÍRE 04:03 Apr 5, 2003 (UTC)
Oy. I renamed without seeing the discussion. I'll redirect back to Baghdad airport. Sorry. -- Zoe
What do legalities, especially international law, have to do with anything? Wikipedia is about de facto (which is NPOV) not de jure (which is the legal POV). We are not an organ of the UN. Also, the airport is an international airport in any case. Does anyone here have any doubts that the airport will be Baghdad International Airport for some time? Is there any evidence Saddam is still running anything at this point?
dml
There are still substantial doubts in many quarters, and there is indeed evidence that Saddam is still running some things - Baghdad and the Iraqi army, most significantly. I believe this article should be left at its current "neutral" location; it can always be moved weeks or months from now, when the fighting is over and a clear authority has been determined. It's too early and uncertain right now to settle on anything, for all we know tomorrow the airport could be completely destroyed by some unexpected weapon of mass destruction rendering the naming issue entirely moot. Bryan
The April 4th event should be removed. One wouldn't want someone to look at this article later in the future and actually believe the the Iraqis were seriously planning a counter-attack on the airport. A counter-attack will never happen (at least not one significant enough that it can even be called an attack), and there is no need to just quote Iraqi propaganda (or US propaganda). If we quoted Iraqi propaganda every day, the articles would be a mess. Lets just report on the facts, not on speculation. The Iraqis have not coutner-attacked YET, so why mention that they SAY they are going to counter-attack. And by "they" I really only mean the information minister because he's the only one that says this ludicrous things. dave 07:05 Apr 7, 2003 (UTC)
Hey I just wanted to say Im happy to see everyone is reading the page I began writing. Thank you and God bless you all!
Antonio Loco en la Cabeza Martin
I don't care who owns what or who has the "right" to name something. Let's just write an article about the airport in question.
Sure, a controversy began in early April 2003 over the "real name" of Saddam International Airport, and I probably contributed more than my share to the fuss. But after thinking it over, I guess it doesn't matter what the article is called. It just has to mention both names and describe the controversy a bit.
So I vote to move the bulk of the April 8th version of this article to either:
In a few weeks or months, one side or another will win the war and the airport will either return to SIA or keep BIA. No biggie. -- Uncle Ed 18:53 Apr 8, 2003 (UTC)
I think it would be wrong to make the move now. The days of Saddam International Airport are numbered, but it still isn't Baghdad International Airport and won't be until a duly authorised authority formally names it that. There is talk that a new Iraqi authority or a UN mandate may not be in place until July. In such circumstances, calling this article Saddam . . . would look POV in still refusing to accept the war's outcome, while a proper new name probably won't come into formal being until then, though international usage may make BII acceptable quicker, or another name may come into being. My vote is to leave it here in neutral territory for now and let events pan out. Moving it now would be a mistake and whatever you pick you look POV. STÓD/ÉÍRE 19:21 Apr 8, 2003 (UTC)
How does someone "look point-of-view"? That makes no sense. I agree with your position, though. -- The Cunctator
I think he meant "non-neutral", i.e., not from the NPOV. Several Wikipedians have adopted POV as an adjective, even though when you expand the abbreviation it sounds odd. Still, I prefer it to "non-NPOV" :-) -- Uncle Ed
Silly remark: the article, as such, supposed that the reader knew who Saddam Hussein was. While, currently, anybody who follows international news knows who he is (or was), in 10 years' time many people will perhaps not know who this mysterious Saddam is. David.Monniaux 12:10, 21 Sep 2003 (UTC)
BBC Burgundavia ( ✈ take a flight?) 19:33, Jun 25, 2005 (UTC)
"There are still renovations on-going throughout the airport to return it to its former self."
In what ways does renaming the airport, building burger kings and renaming the terminals contribute to returning the airport to its former self? I doubt that it's being returned to its former self (i.e. what it was when it was finished in 1982). That would mean changing the name back to Saddam International Airport. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.49.226.61 ( talk • contribs) 16:54, November 6, 2005 (UTC)
I guess I'm just plain lost--how is it that people who've never been there in recent times comment on it? It IS called BIAP. And anyone whos been there recently will tell you that the place is still trashed and smelly--although mostly due to its iraqi customers, (the smelly part). and to the nutsack that keeps deleting photos due to Title 8, go smoke a pole you looser...we've been dying for armchair warriors like you. If you don't like it, the try deleting on our doorsteps. Friggin intern flunkie--must be fresh out of college. REMF.
When did Air Canada ever fly to Baghdad? I don't think they ever flew to Middle Eastern destinations, except for Tel Aviv. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.240.133.0 ( talk) 07:24, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
This article is a mess... why the annual info on who started or didn't start what. If we want to speculate till the cows come home on every Wiki article like this one they would all be long winded with no fact. Can we leave new flight discussion to ones that are PURELY announced and end up on OAG and CRS systems? (e.g. not some marketing guy at Whatever Air taking about flying to Iraq next year to one blog guy)... e.g. PROPER reference able links or verifiable info. Some paper stating "a guy said this" isn't verifiable.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.4.247.149 ( talk) 20:43, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
An image used in this article,
File:Iraqi airways at Baghadad international airport.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at
Wikimedia Commons for the following reason: Deletion requests - No timestamp given
| |
A discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. If you feel the deletion can be contested then please do so (
commons:COM:SPEEDY has further information). Otherwise consider finding a replacement image before deletion occurs.
This notification is provided by a Bot -- CommonsNotificationBot ( talk) 11:09, 11 June 2011 (UTC) |
Wow, a lot of stale info now with US pullout, any attempted changes get auto-reverted when I tried them last month... Anyone want to make an effort to help clean this up with those of us willing to put factual info together? -- 98.164.192.18 ( talk) 20:35, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
Above Still true. Anyone who’s seen it knows there’s more there than this article. WillieHowardCO67 ( talk) 02:03, 4 August 2020 (UTC)