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604 AD is the first third of the SEVENTH century, not the 6th.
I tried to remove an erroneous bullet point however once I had made the simple edit the whole page code has gone totally crazy. I tried to revert but it won't do it. I am very sorry. Aetheling1125 20:45, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
This needs reworking by someone familiar with Augustine's life - at the moment his death is listed under 'first efforts' HyDeckar 15:08, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
I've removed this cat as it seemed extremely anachronistic, yes the church of Enlgand and wider Anglicanism sees continuity with the pre-Reformation church in England and he was the first Archbishop of Canterbury, but I don't think it's meaningful to label him an Anglican in any currently understod form of the term. David Underdown 09:26, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Calling Ethelbert "Bretwalda" seems a bit anachronistic if not downright historially incorrect, as the article on Bretwalda itself states. I've removed the reference, since it is unhelpful.
It is a title (the meaning being closer 'overlord' rather than 'Britain-ruler' as some places here say) ascribed to Ethelbert from early centuries. It certainly is not historically incorrect and hardly seems anachronistic. - April 2012 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.146.225.144 ( talk) 07:55, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
I concur, Ethelbert is listed as the first Bretwalda by Bede and the ASC so it should be kept.Aetheling1125 20:47, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
Just some thoughts.
I'll keep the article on my watchlist and will add other comments if I can think of any. Mike Christie (talk) 23:49, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
RE: Brechter's theory on the archdiocese having been seated at London at one time is new to me; quoted in Brooks, I take it, per your citation. Does Brooks think this is a plausible idea? I haven't seen it elsewhere and it seems a bit far-fetched to me.
Just a thought but, "circa first third of the 6th century – probably 26 May 604", doesn't '6th century' mean 501 to 600? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6th_century. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.148.130.32 ( talk) 19:38, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
I think it's ready for a good copyedit (i.e. rip it to shreds) and thinking about GAN. Anyone volunteer? Ealdgyth | Talk 23:44, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
I'll put comments here that come up as I copyedit. (It'll take me a day or two, I think; I'll let you know when I get through.)
--
Mike Christie
(talk) 01:17, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Okay, I think I've done all I can given how much of the text I wrote myself. I even got all of the occurances of the king's name changed to Æthelberht! Rip away! Ealdgyth - Talk 17:18, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
-- Mike Christie (talk) 00:15, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
The description of the conversion of 10,000 as "The Miracle at Canterbury" is sourced to Fletcher and Stenton, but I don't see that phrase in either of the cited works.
Mike Christie
(talk) 23:59, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Both Justus and Mellitus had come to Britain in 601 as part of the supporting mission sent by Gregory. I moved this to the "Additional work" section but it's uncited there; it's in Bede, I.29, p.90 in my Penguin edition, but I notice you're not citing Bede directly but using secondary sources, so I thought I'd leave it for you to cite as you wish.
Mike Christie
(talk) 21:29, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
I dropped "which became his cathedral" from the bit about the origin of the church at Canterbury; I think it's OK to put in but wasn't sure how to fit it as I reworked the sentence. A couple of comments about it: what's the source for this being the cathedral? I understand that the current cathedral is near an excavated site that could be this, but is there anything near-contemporary to link this passage in Bede with Augustine's establishment of a cathedral? Or if it's a deduction (and I agree it's likely) is there someone like Brooks who can be cited to support it? Mike Christie (talk) 21:49, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
The lead says AEthelberht gave Augustine a ruined church to use as his cathedral. It also says that the later traditions say the cathedral lasted till after the Norman Conquest. This presumably refers to Eadmer. Eadmer's statement (as you had it) said that AEthelberht's church was Eadmer's cathedral. However, AEthelberht seems to have had two churches: one he recovered and one he built.
So my questions are:
I thought the reference to Eadmer in the body was fine and I think you could restore it; I was just unsure which church was being referred to.
One other point: you do mention the cathedral in the lead still, so I think you should either support that in the body or cut it from the lead.
Sorry to have been so confusing on this one -- my bad. Mike Christie (talk) 15:51, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
You say that "Æthelberht ... summoned the British bishops to meet with Augustine in 603" but my version of Bede says that Augustine summoned them "with the aid of" the king. I think this needs rephrasing to be less definite.
Mike Christie
(talk) 22:07, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
"in the Latin language which was in use at Rome at that time": not sure what this means. Do you mean that Latin changed over time and this was a particular form of Latin?
Mike Christie
(talk) 22:16, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
"The worshipers may have been native Christians, but Augustine treated them more as pagans": do you mean they actually were Christian, but Augustine treated them as pagans even so, or that they were may have been Christians, but Augustine did not act as though they were? I think you mean the latter but it could be reworded to be clearer.
Mike Christie
(talk) 22:22, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't particularly like the picture of Augustine in the infobox, though I must say I can't find anything better. Personally I would prefer to leave the infobox blank rather than use a picture so wholly imaginary and without independent artistic notability. I think you can get to FA with the picture, if you like it, but I am not keen on it myself.
Mike Christie
(talk) 23:56, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
Some last notes -- I'll do another pass but I'm close to done now.
That's about it. The article is in very good shape; I will take a break and look again tomorrow and see if I can see any structural suggestions to make, but I think it's easily GA and is within shouting distance of FA. Mike Christie (talk) 04:02, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Gregory and the Angles/Angels: many readers won't know this "famous story", though to those who study this period I agree it's very well-known. I think it could stand being described in the main text. It also needs a reference, to Bede at least.
Mike Christie
(talk) 20:44, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
The lead says Gregory chose Augustine in 596, but the body says it was 595.
Mike Christie
(talk) 20:49, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
"After the mission turned back to Rome before reaching its destination, Gregory insisted on its completion": I don't have Bede in front of me, but I am sure he says only Augustine went back; the rest of the mission presumably waited for him. I think Gregory sent a letter with Augustine to the mission to encourage them. There are so few specific details about the events of Augustine's life I think you could quote this episode at slightly more length.
Mike Christie
(talk) 20:58, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
"They achieved some initial success soon after their arrival": I think you could just cut this sentence -- it precedes the account of his successes, so it's summarizing something that hasn't been said yet, and doesn't provide any specific information.
Mike Christie
(talk) 21:01, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
"This disrespect, along with other issues, led the bishops to refuse to recognize Augustine as archbishop." You follow this by pointing out that this probably wasn't the real reason, which is appropriate; however, in that light it might be good to insert "according to Bede" or something to that effect, to indicate that this is a primary source, not a historian's interpretation, and cite Bede directly.
Mike Christie
(talk) 21:06, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
I am approaching this as someone who knows very little about the subject. I will give some high-level comments mainly on structure and content. There are copyediting and prose issues as well, but it is probably worthwhile to tackle the general problems before going into specifics. Before I start, one general point that you will see often in my comments is that there are at times new subjects that are suddenly introduced. Although wikilinks help, a clause or a few words of explanation would smooth the flow of reading for a person not familiar with the subject.
I would recommend reading the article out loud. I think you will find some sentence structures that seem a bit complex or difficult to understand. Following the corrections, a good copyedit/prose check is needed. I give as an example, the sentence "As to why Pope Gregory…" could be made better as in "Nothing is mentioned in the sources on why Pope Gregory chose a monk to head the mission".
I hope this has been helpful. -- RelHistBuff ( talk) 08:31, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
I think I addressed everything above except for the references. Going to switch them over now. (blech!) Ealdgyth - Talk 00:32, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
User:Secisek suggested Stamps these stamps as a possibility for an image. I just don't know anything about fair use on stamps. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:35, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Are there plans to get this on the main page? -- Secisek ( talk) 18:20, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
There is a certain amount of that, but I think it would be worth it. Just curious. -- Secisek ( talk) 19:31, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Congrats on getting this featured! I wouldn't sweat the main page. There's always the possibility to do a big ol' revert after the page leaves the public eye. :) — Dulcem ( talk) 01:48, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Can you please explain how that site is a reliable source for the information? Ealdgyth - Talk 14:01, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Seeing as how there is a link to the dab page for all St Augustines, is it really necessary that we include a link specifically to St Augustine of Hippo? Carl.bunderson ( talk) 18:06, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
I've removed the information added as the source given is a generalist work and doesn't support the idea that at the time Augustine received a pallium, the pallium was something that tied him unabigiously to the papacy. At the time, the papacy wasn't what it was later in the middle ages, and the given source is a generalist work discussing the entire Middle ages and beyond, not the specifics of this time frame. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:56, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
The article currently states that St. Augustine was the prior of St. Anthony's Monastery and that at one point Pope Gregory was the abbot of the same. Though a source it cited, as far as I can tell this information is inaccurate. I have been unable to find the cited source to confirm it, but my own notes from Jeffery Richards' "Consul of God: The Life and Times of Gregory the Great" indicates that Gregory was the abbot of St. Andrew's, not St. Anthony's (pg 212 of the 1980 edition). This is supported by the online Catholic Encyclopedia ( [1]) as well as Gregory's own Wikia page ( Pope Gregory I). I have thus far been unable to find any indication that St. Andrew's and St. Anthony's were different names for the same place. Can anyone else explain this, or should I go ahead and make the change to the article? Thought ( talk) 22:24, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
I redrew the map as an SVG:
Is it good enough to replace the existing map? Marnanel ( talk) 14:02, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
Bede quotes in full a letter from Pope Gregory to Augustine, acknowledging that his talent for performing miracles is well-known, and warning him against the 'sin' of pride at being able to perform these miracles. The article, however, only refers to his reputation as a miracle-worker in the context of the exaggerated & fanciful later medieval hagiographies. I realise that, in this secular age, we pay no credence to reports of the supposedly miraculous; but is it worthwhile mentioning that part of the success of the Gregorian mission was, as Gregory's letter attests, due to Augustine's reputation as a supposed 'worker of miracles' within his own lifetime? Butcherscross ( talk) 22:25, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
The footnote says: ^ The name is in the halo, in a later hand. The figure is identified as a saint by his clerical tonsure.[1]
Put me right about this...... I would have thought that the halo identified the subject as a saint, while the tonsure identified him as a cleric. And that together they indicate that he was a cleric who became was/is a saint.
Amandajm ( talk) 01:55, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
I've trimmed this
"Kent was probably chosen because it was near the Christian kingdoms in
Gaul and because Æthelberht had married a Christian princess..."
as it is specualtive; there are a number of reasons why Kent was chosen, which are outlined in the Background section (not the least being, they were invited!) so saying it was "probably" because Kent was near to Gaul is a bit simplistic.
Moonraker12 (
talk) 17:22, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
I notice that an addition I made, saying that the mission's landing place was at Ebbsfleet, in Thanet, has been deleted as the source given doesn't mention the location. That's fair enough, but is it not the case that is where they landed? And if so, shouldn't we mention it? I've re-arranged the information to take account of the source given; is that OK, do you think? Moonraker12 ( talk) 13:50, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
An addendum: I've tweaked the wording in the Legacy section. The BBC report ( here) may be reliable, but it's hardly neutral; what's there is Alan Kay's opinion (whoever he is), and which happily co-incides with that of the neighbouring golf club, who want the monument moved. And the contention that the site was "a mile and a half inland at the time" is dubious; it was on the Wantsum channel, according to the information here. And English Heritage ( here, further information) seem OK with the site as traditional. So I'd be inclined to take it with a pinch of salt... Moonraker12 ( talk) 13:06, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
I removed the quotation because the lead summarizes the body of the article - the information is not in the body of the article nor is it really that important that an exact quote be there. THe information is summarized (without the quote) in the body of the article. The information that Gregory thought he was sending Augustine to the "end of the world" is really trivia and not needed in the article - much less in the lead! Kindly remove it - just because it had been there for a while, doesn't mean it needs to stay. It's undue weight (see WP:UNDUE) by far in the lead and too trivial in the body. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:36, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
The article is generally lovely, so I assume that Moonraker is generally a force for good, but the snotty tone he took with me certainly isn't the way to make friends or influence people.
In the paragraph beginning:
Augustine failed to extend his authority to the Christians in [[Wales]] and [[Dumnonia]] to the west. Gregory had decreed that these Christians should submit to Augustine and that their bishops should obey him,<ref name=Harting70>Mayr-Harting ''Coming of Christianity'' pp. 70–72</ref>
apparently believing that more of the Roman governmental and ecclesiastical organization survived in the Britain than was actually the case.<ref name=Conversion118>Yorke ''Conversion of Britain'' p. 118</ref> According to the narrative of Bede, the Britons in these regions viewed Augustine with uncertainty, and their suspicion was compounded by a diplomatic misjudgement on Augustine's part.<ref name=ASE110>Stenton ''Anglo-Saxon England'' pp. 110–111</ref>
I removed the struck-through section and its cite. Source or no, the comment is a snide put-down of the Brits (generally violating NPOV) and (what's a no-no even for cites) factually incorrect. No sources employed by Yorke are given or explained and her presumptive source Bede completely contradicts her. The problem is not that the British have no government or ecclesiastical organization: the problem with asserting Augustine's authority is that they have too much. The local near Severn can't make a decision without reporting to HQ and HQ quickly responds and sends a delegation of seven bishops and many learned men from a monastery of (supposedly) thousands while Augustine has less to run all of Saxon England.
Moon seems to have written the section involved, so if some other editors could talk him back towards trying to, y'know, improve the articles and have them be factually accurate, I'd appreciate it. — LlywelynII 17:31, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
As I noted, I added the born-died notation because the current configuration is awkward and has been a source of repeated confusion. To more than one reader, it is not clear what the parenthetical phrase refers to. (And WP:DOB refers to the privacy information of living people, not to the form of parenthetical birth-death date information; clarity appears rather more important than protecting Augustine from identity theft.) Laszlo Panaflex ( talk) 13:19, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
In the article it says that Augustine found reconsecrating temples as churches to be "easier" than becoming primate of Britain. So far as I know, Augustine never consecrated any temples as churches. Does anyone know of any instance of this being done? Thanks. Rwflammang ( talk) 21:12, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
The affected text: "Other distinguishing characteristics were its calculation of the date of Easter and ...".
I recently made a change to it (added ", i.e. on the day of Passover,"), and that change was removed a few minutes later:
I claim that it is relevant. The actual difference supports the earlier claim that it "developed in isolation from Rome". Specifically, this church still celebrated Passover, as was taught to their predecessors, who almost certainly got it from the original Apostles or their direct successors. Meanwhile, the Roman Church had banned the celebration of Passover as heresy and instituted Easter at the Council of Nicaea.
Reporting this significant difference between the two churches simply as "its caclulation" is far too mild and weaselly for something that is explicit heresy. (unsigned comment
I'm just going to suggest this then leave it to others more interested to follow up on, but weren't certain Pagan winter solstice customs (Yule logs, boughs of holly, the solstice feast, and.....?) incorporated as part of Christmas celebration by Saint Augustine to ease the conversion of northern Pagans? That would be an interesting note on his legacy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.111.54.141 ( talk) 05:36, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
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WP:LEAD is rather specific. Information not likely to be challenged doesn’t require refs. And all of the information that’s trying to be refer is already cited in the body with mostly better sources. And the cross is already mentioned so that info is being duplicated..which is bad. And the flower.y detail about the abbey belongs in the article on the abbey, not here. The fact that the abbey is a UNESCO heritage site is utterly unimportant to understanding Augustine. And this is a featured article, it has to conform to the MOS and adding in badly formatted text and citations is a giant the MOS. Frankly, the edits were extremely poor. Since the info is cited in the article, it makes no sense to use different sources to cut it in the info box or lead. And we don’t need an url for a JSTOR citation, as the jstor parameter provides the link without being subject to link rot. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:36, 31 January 2020 (UTC)
The necessity for citations in a lead should be determined on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus. Complex, current, or controversial subjects may require many citations; others, few or none." Current practice on WP, particularly on well-written articles (i.e. including featured articles), is for there not to be citations in the lead or infobox for material in the body of the article (unless particularly contentious, or a direct quote).
My addition of Bede's story about Augustine of Canterbury's healing of a blind man when the British bishops couldn't. You dismiss it because 'a miracle is not a fact'. Such a historiographical approach fails to engage with the understanding of other cultures of what is important, and thus offers an incomplete understanding of history. I was careful to record it as what Bede said, not as a fact. Such an approach offers a deeper understanding of the people of the time without asserting that the event happened.
This is an equally valid criticism of Hindley; the fact that that historian downplays the role of a miracle in determining Augustine's authority can well be argued as reflecting his post-Enlightenment beliefs, and so detracts from gaining a full understanding of the perspective of the people of the time. So we should include the story as I have, with it ascribed clearly to Bede but not offered as more than that. Ender's Shadow Snr ( talk) 19:02, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
The Benedictine reform is subsequent, he was not a Benedictine and the monks of the Roman monastery where he was prior were not Benedictines, they were linked to the monasticism of Saint Martin of Tours.-- Trebbia ( talk) 14:59, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
You need to update this section to accord with modern archaeology and the fact that Celtic Y chromosome DNA in southeastern English men is so common, as much as 50%. You don't get that if the Saxons succeeded in a war of extermination. The archaeology shows relatively peaceful coexistence. It's also true that Irish and Scots missionaries came to Europe during Augustine's mission, bringing documents that survived the persecution; only the first of Diocletian's edicts applied to Britain and was weakly enforced according to the relevant Wikipedia article. What's more, Augustine's mission was only to the Saxons, not the British, Irish or Scots who were already Christian. So let's not make more of this than it was. mmm - yeah, Bede: https://api.research-repository.uwa.edu.au/ws/portalfiles/portal/14262962/Grimmer._Bede_and_the_Augustine_s_Oak_Conferences_Implications_for_Anglo_British_Ecclesiastical_Interaction_in_Early_Anglo_Saxon_England.pdf 100.15.127.199 ( talk) 15:45, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
We do not need to enumerate all the locations where the lead image is used and how it might be identified in those various locations - it's too much detail for the footnote, so I've removed it again. Ealdgyth ( talk) 17:06, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
Augustine of Canterbury is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | |||||||||||||
Augustine of Canterbury is part of the Members of the Gregorian mission series, a featured topic. This is identified as among the best series of articles produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do so. | |||||||||||||
This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on September 2, 2012. | |||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the " On this day..." column on May 26, 2017. | |||||||||||||
Current status: Featured article |
This
level-5 vital article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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604 AD is the first third of the SEVENTH century, not the 6th.
I tried to remove an erroneous bullet point however once I had made the simple edit the whole page code has gone totally crazy. I tried to revert but it won't do it. I am very sorry. Aetheling1125 20:45, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
This needs reworking by someone familiar with Augustine's life - at the moment his death is listed under 'first efforts' HyDeckar 15:08, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
I've removed this cat as it seemed extremely anachronistic, yes the church of Enlgand and wider Anglicanism sees continuity with the pre-Reformation church in England and he was the first Archbishop of Canterbury, but I don't think it's meaningful to label him an Anglican in any currently understod form of the term. David Underdown 09:26, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Calling Ethelbert "Bretwalda" seems a bit anachronistic if not downright historially incorrect, as the article on Bretwalda itself states. I've removed the reference, since it is unhelpful.
It is a title (the meaning being closer 'overlord' rather than 'Britain-ruler' as some places here say) ascribed to Ethelbert from early centuries. It certainly is not historically incorrect and hardly seems anachronistic. - April 2012 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.146.225.144 ( talk) 07:55, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
I concur, Ethelbert is listed as the first Bretwalda by Bede and the ASC so it should be kept.Aetheling1125 20:47, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
Just some thoughts.
I'll keep the article on my watchlist and will add other comments if I can think of any. Mike Christie (talk) 23:49, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
RE: Brechter's theory on the archdiocese having been seated at London at one time is new to me; quoted in Brooks, I take it, per your citation. Does Brooks think this is a plausible idea? I haven't seen it elsewhere and it seems a bit far-fetched to me.
Just a thought but, "circa first third of the 6th century – probably 26 May 604", doesn't '6th century' mean 501 to 600? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6th_century. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.148.130.32 ( talk) 19:38, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
I think it's ready for a good copyedit (i.e. rip it to shreds) and thinking about GAN. Anyone volunteer? Ealdgyth | Talk 23:44, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
I'll put comments here that come up as I copyedit. (It'll take me a day or two, I think; I'll let you know when I get through.)
--
Mike Christie
(talk) 01:17, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Okay, I think I've done all I can given how much of the text I wrote myself. I even got all of the occurances of the king's name changed to Æthelberht! Rip away! Ealdgyth - Talk 17:18, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
-- Mike Christie (talk) 00:15, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
The description of the conversion of 10,000 as "The Miracle at Canterbury" is sourced to Fletcher and Stenton, but I don't see that phrase in either of the cited works.
Mike Christie
(talk) 23:59, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Both Justus and Mellitus had come to Britain in 601 as part of the supporting mission sent by Gregory. I moved this to the "Additional work" section but it's uncited there; it's in Bede, I.29, p.90 in my Penguin edition, but I notice you're not citing Bede directly but using secondary sources, so I thought I'd leave it for you to cite as you wish.
Mike Christie
(talk) 21:29, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
I dropped "which became his cathedral" from the bit about the origin of the church at Canterbury; I think it's OK to put in but wasn't sure how to fit it as I reworked the sentence. A couple of comments about it: what's the source for this being the cathedral? I understand that the current cathedral is near an excavated site that could be this, but is there anything near-contemporary to link this passage in Bede with Augustine's establishment of a cathedral? Or if it's a deduction (and I agree it's likely) is there someone like Brooks who can be cited to support it? Mike Christie (talk) 21:49, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
The lead says AEthelberht gave Augustine a ruined church to use as his cathedral. It also says that the later traditions say the cathedral lasted till after the Norman Conquest. This presumably refers to Eadmer. Eadmer's statement (as you had it) said that AEthelberht's church was Eadmer's cathedral. However, AEthelberht seems to have had two churches: one he recovered and one he built.
So my questions are:
I thought the reference to Eadmer in the body was fine and I think you could restore it; I was just unsure which church was being referred to.
One other point: you do mention the cathedral in the lead still, so I think you should either support that in the body or cut it from the lead.
Sorry to have been so confusing on this one -- my bad. Mike Christie (talk) 15:51, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
You say that "Æthelberht ... summoned the British bishops to meet with Augustine in 603" but my version of Bede says that Augustine summoned them "with the aid of" the king. I think this needs rephrasing to be less definite.
Mike Christie
(talk) 22:07, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
"in the Latin language which was in use at Rome at that time": not sure what this means. Do you mean that Latin changed over time and this was a particular form of Latin?
Mike Christie
(talk) 22:16, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
"The worshipers may have been native Christians, but Augustine treated them more as pagans": do you mean they actually were Christian, but Augustine treated them as pagans even so, or that they were may have been Christians, but Augustine did not act as though they were? I think you mean the latter but it could be reworded to be clearer.
Mike Christie
(talk) 22:22, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't particularly like the picture of Augustine in the infobox, though I must say I can't find anything better. Personally I would prefer to leave the infobox blank rather than use a picture so wholly imaginary and without independent artistic notability. I think you can get to FA with the picture, if you like it, but I am not keen on it myself.
Mike Christie
(talk) 23:56, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
Some last notes -- I'll do another pass but I'm close to done now.
That's about it. The article is in very good shape; I will take a break and look again tomorrow and see if I can see any structural suggestions to make, but I think it's easily GA and is within shouting distance of FA. Mike Christie (talk) 04:02, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Gregory and the Angles/Angels: many readers won't know this "famous story", though to those who study this period I agree it's very well-known. I think it could stand being described in the main text. It also needs a reference, to Bede at least.
Mike Christie
(talk) 20:44, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
The lead says Gregory chose Augustine in 596, but the body says it was 595.
Mike Christie
(talk) 20:49, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
"After the mission turned back to Rome before reaching its destination, Gregory insisted on its completion": I don't have Bede in front of me, but I am sure he says only Augustine went back; the rest of the mission presumably waited for him. I think Gregory sent a letter with Augustine to the mission to encourage them. There are so few specific details about the events of Augustine's life I think you could quote this episode at slightly more length.
Mike Christie
(talk) 20:58, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
"They achieved some initial success soon after their arrival": I think you could just cut this sentence -- it precedes the account of his successes, so it's summarizing something that hasn't been said yet, and doesn't provide any specific information.
Mike Christie
(talk) 21:01, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
"This disrespect, along with other issues, led the bishops to refuse to recognize Augustine as archbishop." You follow this by pointing out that this probably wasn't the real reason, which is appropriate; however, in that light it might be good to insert "according to Bede" or something to that effect, to indicate that this is a primary source, not a historian's interpretation, and cite Bede directly.
Mike Christie
(talk) 21:06, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
I am approaching this as someone who knows very little about the subject. I will give some high-level comments mainly on structure and content. There are copyediting and prose issues as well, but it is probably worthwhile to tackle the general problems before going into specifics. Before I start, one general point that you will see often in my comments is that there are at times new subjects that are suddenly introduced. Although wikilinks help, a clause or a few words of explanation would smooth the flow of reading for a person not familiar with the subject.
I would recommend reading the article out loud. I think you will find some sentence structures that seem a bit complex or difficult to understand. Following the corrections, a good copyedit/prose check is needed. I give as an example, the sentence "As to why Pope Gregory…" could be made better as in "Nothing is mentioned in the sources on why Pope Gregory chose a monk to head the mission".
I hope this has been helpful. -- RelHistBuff ( talk) 08:31, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
I think I addressed everything above except for the references. Going to switch them over now. (blech!) Ealdgyth - Talk 00:32, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
User:Secisek suggested Stamps these stamps as a possibility for an image. I just don't know anything about fair use on stamps. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:35, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Are there plans to get this on the main page? -- Secisek ( talk) 18:20, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
There is a certain amount of that, but I think it would be worth it. Just curious. -- Secisek ( talk) 19:31, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Congrats on getting this featured! I wouldn't sweat the main page. There's always the possibility to do a big ol' revert after the page leaves the public eye. :) — Dulcem ( talk) 01:48, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Can you please explain how that site is a reliable source for the information? Ealdgyth - Talk 14:01, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Seeing as how there is a link to the dab page for all St Augustines, is it really necessary that we include a link specifically to St Augustine of Hippo? Carl.bunderson ( talk) 18:06, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
I've removed the information added as the source given is a generalist work and doesn't support the idea that at the time Augustine received a pallium, the pallium was something that tied him unabigiously to the papacy. At the time, the papacy wasn't what it was later in the middle ages, and the given source is a generalist work discussing the entire Middle ages and beyond, not the specifics of this time frame. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:56, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
The article currently states that St. Augustine was the prior of St. Anthony's Monastery and that at one point Pope Gregory was the abbot of the same. Though a source it cited, as far as I can tell this information is inaccurate. I have been unable to find the cited source to confirm it, but my own notes from Jeffery Richards' "Consul of God: The Life and Times of Gregory the Great" indicates that Gregory was the abbot of St. Andrew's, not St. Anthony's (pg 212 of the 1980 edition). This is supported by the online Catholic Encyclopedia ( [1]) as well as Gregory's own Wikia page ( Pope Gregory I). I have thus far been unable to find any indication that St. Andrew's and St. Anthony's were different names for the same place. Can anyone else explain this, or should I go ahead and make the change to the article? Thought ( talk) 22:24, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
I redrew the map as an SVG:
Is it good enough to replace the existing map? Marnanel ( talk) 14:02, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
Bede quotes in full a letter from Pope Gregory to Augustine, acknowledging that his talent for performing miracles is well-known, and warning him against the 'sin' of pride at being able to perform these miracles. The article, however, only refers to his reputation as a miracle-worker in the context of the exaggerated & fanciful later medieval hagiographies. I realise that, in this secular age, we pay no credence to reports of the supposedly miraculous; but is it worthwhile mentioning that part of the success of the Gregorian mission was, as Gregory's letter attests, due to Augustine's reputation as a supposed 'worker of miracles' within his own lifetime? Butcherscross ( talk) 22:25, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
The footnote says: ^ The name is in the halo, in a later hand. The figure is identified as a saint by his clerical tonsure.[1]
Put me right about this...... I would have thought that the halo identified the subject as a saint, while the tonsure identified him as a cleric. And that together they indicate that he was a cleric who became was/is a saint.
Amandajm ( talk) 01:55, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
I've trimmed this
"Kent was probably chosen because it was near the Christian kingdoms in
Gaul and because Æthelberht had married a Christian princess..."
as it is specualtive; there are a number of reasons why Kent was chosen, which are outlined in the Background section (not the least being, they were invited!) so saying it was "probably" because Kent was near to Gaul is a bit simplistic.
Moonraker12 (
talk) 17:22, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
I notice that an addition I made, saying that the mission's landing place was at Ebbsfleet, in Thanet, has been deleted as the source given doesn't mention the location. That's fair enough, but is it not the case that is where they landed? And if so, shouldn't we mention it? I've re-arranged the information to take account of the source given; is that OK, do you think? Moonraker12 ( talk) 13:50, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
An addendum: I've tweaked the wording in the Legacy section. The BBC report ( here) may be reliable, but it's hardly neutral; what's there is Alan Kay's opinion (whoever he is), and which happily co-incides with that of the neighbouring golf club, who want the monument moved. And the contention that the site was "a mile and a half inland at the time" is dubious; it was on the Wantsum channel, according to the information here. And English Heritage ( here, further information) seem OK with the site as traditional. So I'd be inclined to take it with a pinch of salt... Moonraker12 ( talk) 13:06, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
I removed the quotation because the lead summarizes the body of the article - the information is not in the body of the article nor is it really that important that an exact quote be there. THe information is summarized (without the quote) in the body of the article. The information that Gregory thought he was sending Augustine to the "end of the world" is really trivia and not needed in the article - much less in the lead! Kindly remove it - just because it had been there for a while, doesn't mean it needs to stay. It's undue weight (see WP:UNDUE) by far in the lead and too trivial in the body. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:36, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
The article is generally lovely, so I assume that Moonraker is generally a force for good, but the snotty tone he took with me certainly isn't the way to make friends or influence people.
In the paragraph beginning:
Augustine failed to extend his authority to the Christians in [[Wales]] and [[Dumnonia]] to the west. Gregory had decreed that these Christians should submit to Augustine and that their bishops should obey him,<ref name=Harting70>Mayr-Harting ''Coming of Christianity'' pp. 70–72</ref>
apparently believing that more of the Roman governmental and ecclesiastical organization survived in the Britain than was actually the case.<ref name=Conversion118>Yorke ''Conversion of Britain'' p. 118</ref> According to the narrative of Bede, the Britons in these regions viewed Augustine with uncertainty, and their suspicion was compounded by a diplomatic misjudgement on Augustine's part.<ref name=ASE110>Stenton ''Anglo-Saxon England'' pp. 110–111</ref>
I removed the struck-through section and its cite. Source or no, the comment is a snide put-down of the Brits (generally violating NPOV) and (what's a no-no even for cites) factually incorrect. No sources employed by Yorke are given or explained and her presumptive source Bede completely contradicts her. The problem is not that the British have no government or ecclesiastical organization: the problem with asserting Augustine's authority is that they have too much. The local near Severn can't make a decision without reporting to HQ and HQ quickly responds and sends a delegation of seven bishops and many learned men from a monastery of (supposedly) thousands while Augustine has less to run all of Saxon England.
Moon seems to have written the section involved, so if some other editors could talk him back towards trying to, y'know, improve the articles and have them be factually accurate, I'd appreciate it. — LlywelynII 17:31, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
As I noted, I added the born-died notation because the current configuration is awkward and has been a source of repeated confusion. To more than one reader, it is not clear what the parenthetical phrase refers to. (And WP:DOB refers to the privacy information of living people, not to the form of parenthetical birth-death date information; clarity appears rather more important than protecting Augustine from identity theft.) Laszlo Panaflex ( talk) 13:19, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
In the article it says that Augustine found reconsecrating temples as churches to be "easier" than becoming primate of Britain. So far as I know, Augustine never consecrated any temples as churches. Does anyone know of any instance of this being done? Thanks. Rwflammang ( talk) 21:12, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
The affected text: "Other distinguishing characteristics were its calculation of the date of Easter and ...".
I recently made a change to it (added ", i.e. on the day of Passover,"), and that change was removed a few minutes later:
I claim that it is relevant. The actual difference supports the earlier claim that it "developed in isolation from Rome". Specifically, this church still celebrated Passover, as was taught to their predecessors, who almost certainly got it from the original Apostles or their direct successors. Meanwhile, the Roman Church had banned the celebration of Passover as heresy and instituted Easter at the Council of Nicaea.
Reporting this significant difference between the two churches simply as "its caclulation" is far too mild and weaselly for something that is explicit heresy. (unsigned comment
I'm just going to suggest this then leave it to others more interested to follow up on, but weren't certain Pagan winter solstice customs (Yule logs, boughs of holly, the solstice feast, and.....?) incorporated as part of Christmas celebration by Saint Augustine to ease the conversion of northern Pagans? That would be an interesting note on his legacy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.111.54.141 ( talk) 05:36, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
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WP:LEAD is rather specific. Information not likely to be challenged doesn’t require refs. And all of the information that’s trying to be refer is already cited in the body with mostly better sources. And the cross is already mentioned so that info is being duplicated..which is bad. And the flower.y detail about the abbey belongs in the article on the abbey, not here. The fact that the abbey is a UNESCO heritage site is utterly unimportant to understanding Augustine. And this is a featured article, it has to conform to the MOS and adding in badly formatted text and citations is a giant the MOS. Frankly, the edits were extremely poor. Since the info is cited in the article, it makes no sense to use different sources to cut it in the info box or lead. And we don’t need an url for a JSTOR citation, as the jstor parameter provides the link without being subject to link rot. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:36, 31 January 2020 (UTC)
The necessity for citations in a lead should be determined on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus. Complex, current, or controversial subjects may require many citations; others, few or none." Current practice on WP, particularly on well-written articles (i.e. including featured articles), is for there not to be citations in the lead or infobox for material in the body of the article (unless particularly contentious, or a direct quote).
My addition of Bede's story about Augustine of Canterbury's healing of a blind man when the British bishops couldn't. You dismiss it because 'a miracle is not a fact'. Such a historiographical approach fails to engage with the understanding of other cultures of what is important, and thus offers an incomplete understanding of history. I was careful to record it as what Bede said, not as a fact. Such an approach offers a deeper understanding of the people of the time without asserting that the event happened.
This is an equally valid criticism of Hindley; the fact that that historian downplays the role of a miracle in determining Augustine's authority can well be argued as reflecting his post-Enlightenment beliefs, and so detracts from gaining a full understanding of the perspective of the people of the time. So we should include the story as I have, with it ascribed clearly to Bede but not offered as more than that. Ender's Shadow Snr ( talk) 19:02, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
The Benedictine reform is subsequent, he was not a Benedictine and the monks of the Roman monastery where he was prior were not Benedictines, they were linked to the monasticism of Saint Martin of Tours.-- Trebbia ( talk) 14:59, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
You need to update this section to accord with modern archaeology and the fact that Celtic Y chromosome DNA in southeastern English men is so common, as much as 50%. You don't get that if the Saxons succeeded in a war of extermination. The archaeology shows relatively peaceful coexistence. It's also true that Irish and Scots missionaries came to Europe during Augustine's mission, bringing documents that survived the persecution; only the first of Diocletian's edicts applied to Britain and was weakly enforced according to the relevant Wikipedia article. What's more, Augustine's mission was only to the Saxons, not the British, Irish or Scots who were already Christian. So let's not make more of this than it was. mmm - yeah, Bede: https://api.research-repository.uwa.edu.au/ws/portalfiles/portal/14262962/Grimmer._Bede_and_the_Augustine_s_Oak_Conferences_Implications_for_Anglo_British_Ecclesiastical_Interaction_in_Early_Anglo_Saxon_England.pdf 100.15.127.199 ( talk) 15:45, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
We do not need to enumerate all the locations where the lead image is used and how it might be identified in those various locations - it's too much detail for the footnote, so I've removed it again. Ealdgyth ( talk) 17:06, 16 April 2023 (UTC)