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== Different articles == Get the medication you need to manage ADHD symptoms effectively.
Shouldnt ADD and ADHD have their own articles? they are 2 different things —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.118.112.57 ( talk) 04:01, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
ADHD (attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder) is currently the correct diagnostic label (and umbrella term) for both attention-deficit disorder with symptoms of hyperactivity AND attention-deficit disorder without symptoms of hyperactivity. WikipedianAndrew ( talk) 03:15, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I've worked with a disproportionate number of children diagnosed with ADD and ADHD. I've read and re-read all of the commentary from researchers, scientists, psychologists, teachers and parents. I've seen no research for those circumstances when the brain/central nervous system 'morphs' from a biological miracle into the different appearances of brain activity and structure that represent ADD. While I guess that there are biologically-suspect causes (this is not a new disorder), I keep seeing small references to "television" and the exposure or restriction of time spent with this type of 'child care provider', as either a potential cause or at least a partial preventative, respectively (depending on the article). I've not seen the implicit results of any research into the impact of early electronic game viewing on young, 'untrained' and still-forming neural connectors and the central nervous system mechanism. I'm curious to know how early-childhood, high speed, high color, intense visual exposure impacts brains that have not yet had the methodical 'training' required to recognize and work with basic shapes, colors and simple problem-solving and how this affects a developing brain. These brains (kids)jump directly into the neurological challenge of an intense, high speed, highly stimulating activity, often at significant durations and frequencies as a part of their early development. How does this stimuli affect the structural and functional area of the brain in early development? I have read that there is some affect to developed brains. I've also read that there are several additional stages of structural development of the brain, after early childhood--how is this subsequent nervous system development affected by ongoing exposure to electonic "high energy" visual stimulation? When may I read the results of this research? 65.194.243.232 17:51, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Why is it such an important topic to decide if adhd is a mental/ neurological disorder? I have been diagnosed and couldn't care less about it. Thanks. 134.106.199.50 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.106.199.50 ( talk) 17:24, August 28, 2007 (UTC)
Many people growing up with undiagnosed ADD are accustomed to having moralistic explanations acribed to their behavior-- that is "you're lazy", "you refuse to behave", "you don't think about the consequences of your actions". The idea that there's a neurology at work frees them from the feelings of guilt they've been trained to experience, gives them a different way of looking at themselves and lets them make a change positive in themselves. Whether ADD is, in fact, nuerological or not, that's why there's a lot of strong feelings about it. Stevecudmore 16:03, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
The distinction will determine if the primary course of therapy is psychological or medical. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.54.75.2 ( talk) 21:18, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I think the dichotomy in the previous comment between mental/psychological therapy is false. The most appropriate treatment could easily involve both types. 128.112.49.106 ( talk) 22:40, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Stevecudmore's and DCDuring's comments are relevant. While they observe that people with "neurological" illnesses are treated better socially than those with "mental" illnesses, this can be thought of as more of a social commentary on popular morality judgments. It might be useful to highlight that the fallacy underlying this social behaviour seems to be that "mental" illnesses are conflated with intentional behaviour. 128.112.49.106 ( talk) 22:40, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
-- Ss06470 01:26, 14 September 2007 (UTC)Fascinating that there is an August question about TV and ADHD and an article by Australian researchers directed at this very question which appeared in Pediatrics which I added here last week and it has already been deleted. Does Childhood Television Viewing Lead to Attention Problems in Adolescence? Results From a Prospective Longitudinal Study PEDIATRICS Vol. 120 No. 3 September 2007, pp. 532-537 (doi:10.1542/peds.2007-0978)
Good work ADHD police. Your diligence is an inspiration. How you get away with it is an amazing story but then so are the mailings I get every week (about 4 or 5)advocating for the vast number of patients I am seeing who must be put on amphetamines or Ritalin to treat their biological condition. I get more ads for this cause then the coupons my wife receives from detergent manufacturers Layman are beginning to be suspicions of Childhood Bipolar Disorder which has seen a 40 fold increase in diagnosis over the last 10 years. Could it be that our "experts" are salesmen for drug companies. They certainly are paid a fortune to make their point. But then I've said all this before including my references to Marcia Angell's editorial in the New England Journal of Medicine Is Academic Medicine for Sale. There are literally billions of dollars involved for drug companies in keeping ADHD biological. When are the people who run Wikepedia going to wake up and guard sites such as this from those who police this site and keep disagreeing facts from reaching the eyes of readers. Who are you Scuro?
Scuro. I tried last time to reason with the likes of your kind 6 months ago and it was a complete waste of my time, so this will be it. I consider Scientology nonsense and regularly prescribe meds when they are warranted. I also use stimulants for ADHD as a practical measure. They do work for reasons I try to elaborate in my article. ADHD and Other Sins of Our Children Many other medications have profoundly influenced psychiatric practice and been helpful. I defended Prozac and Lilly against wild accusation in the British Medical Journal [1] Moreover, I have little doubt that the recent increase in adolescent suicides is related to a decreased use of antidepressants as a result of the media hysteria .
However, there is no question that drug companies promote their drugs in unethical ways and unfortunately many "experts" are essentially hired guns for their point of view. I say this with profound regret and don't doubt that many of them consider themselves innocent and unprejudiced by the huge amounts of money paid to them. I keep mentioning Marcia Angell former editor of the New England Journal of Medicine who wrote her editorial "Is Academic Medicine for Sale" and then went on to write a book about this subject The Truth about the Drug Companies: How They Deceive Us and What to Do about It The editor of the Lancet was even more scathing in comments he made in the New York Review of Books.Horton, R. (2004) The Dawn of McScience. New York Review of Book 51, Vol4..Mental Health Another editor of the NEJM wrote an article in the JAMA with a similar assessment. The fact is 18 billion dollars have been spent on promoting drugs. It is completely out of hand. I invite you to read my article on ADHD before you so easily dismiss me. There are certainly positions that I take that may turn out to be wrong, but they are honest speculations. The consistent efforts here to exclude nonbiological points of view is not honest and should be labeled as such. I don't know if you work for a drug company or are one of the many people who have been convinced that their own problems are "not their fault" because they were born with ADHD, or whatever your motivation, but I once again invite you to reveal who you are. This site with its anonymous posting and claims to scholarly objectivity is absurd.
One last quote from my article
"It Was Like A Whitewash"'
Enter Dr. William Pelham, director of the Center for Children and Families at State University of New York at Buffalo (SUNY). A leading ADHD researcher for 30 years, Pelham is a former member of the scientific advisory board for McNeil Pharmaceuticals, which produces Tylenol and markets Concerta, a popular stimulant medication trademarked by Alza Corp. of Mountain View, Calif. Over his career, Pelham has penned over 250 research papers on ADHD, many with industry grants. In 2002, he was given a lifetime achievement award by the world's largest ADHD patient advocacy group, Children and Adults with Attention Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (CHADD). In interviews with AlterNet, Pelham provided glimpses into the dubious methods drug maker McNeil-Alza uses to ensure that studies it funds produce favorable results for its ADHD medications. Between 1997 and 1999, he was paid by McNeil to conduct one of three studies used to get FDA approval. The company currently uses the three studies to claim that 96 percent of children taking Concerta experience no problems in appetite, growth, or sleep. But Pelham says the studies were flawed. The original intent of the studies was to measure both side effects and main effects of the drug. But two of the three studies, including Pelham's, required that the subjects had to already be taking MPH and responding well to it in order to enter the study. In other words, by stacking the studies with patients already successfully taking stimulants, McNeil ensured the subjects would be unlikely to register side effects, Pelham says.
"It's really misleading and I'm surprised the FDA is letting them use the studies to advertise no side effects," he says. "They had no side effects because they took only people with only a positive history of medication. This is really pushing meds without telling the full picture." There was also pressure from the company to tweak the findings, he says. Part of Pelham's study involved "providing parent training to parents, having a simple behavioral program in place on Saturday lab days, and establishing simple behavioral programs in the children's regular school classrooms." When his paper was in the galley proof stage at the medical journal Pediatrics, Pelham says he joined a conference call with a number of senior people from the corporation who lobbied him to change what he had written in the paper. "The people at Alza clearly pushed me to delete a paragraph in the article where I was saying it was important to do combined treatments (medication and behavioral)," he says, adding that they also pushed him to water down or eliminate other sentences and words that did not dovetail into their interests. "It was intimidating to be one researcher and have all these people pushing me to change the text." McNeil offered no direct response to the allegations.
"We cannot comment on unsubstantiated allegations," says Gary Esterow, a spokesman for McNeil Consumer & Specialty Pharmaceuticals, in a written statement. "The protocols and full study reports for these clinical trials were reviewed by the FDA, and provided the basis for FDA approval. Prior to publication, there was ample opportunity for full discussion of the data among the investigators. Publication of the findings reflect the prevailing opinion of the authors and is further supported by the peer review process of the scientific journals in which these studies appear." Pelham says McNeil didn't stop there. The company commissioned a follow-up study on the conversion study mentioned above. This time McNeil did the data analysis and coordinated the paper writing. "I insisted on seeing the analysis and having major inputs into the manuscript and it was like pulling teeth to get wording and analysis changed," he says. "It was like a whitewash, a praise to Concerta." Pelham says the company submitted the paper twice to the Journal of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry. Drafts were sent to Pelham several times but he says he never returned anything with his signature. In the end, however, he says the paper was accepted without his knowledge and published with his name on it).
My assumption for the reason Pelham was pressured to remove the paragraqh emphasizing the importance of combined treatments (medication and behavioral) is that this would expose the limitations of pediatricians, who would be required to meet this standard of care. By far, the biggest prescribers of Concerta are pediatricians. Use would go radically down if the pediatricians could not believe that they were giving appropriate care based on reasoning that they were simply fixing the chemical imbalance. -- Ss06470 13:30, 18 September 2007 (UTC) Simon Sobo MD
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Ss06470 ( talk • contribs) 13:17, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Scuro, do you believe that people are that stupid? You and all of those who are putting informations based on laboratories data and institutions that are linked with all the promotion of "disease mongering" in order to sell drugs are making propaganda. You can deny it but the public has already enough data to see clearly how unethical you all are.-- Justana ( talk) 11:20, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Was going through older posts and a question went unanswered from Scuro about challenges to the genetic basis of ADHD. Here are two:
THE MISSING GENE Psychiatry, Heredity, and the Fruitless Search for Genes Jay Joseph, Psy.D. Algora Publishing, January, 2006
Joseph Glenmullen, M.D., from Harvard Medical School had this to say "no claim of a gene for a psychiatric condition has stood the test of time, in spite of popular misinformation". This is from Glenmullin, Joseph (2000). Prozac Backlash. New York: Simon & Schuster, 192-198.
I perfectly understand there are conventions and rules here including that this page is not a soapbox, but it would not be necessary to debate these issues here if the page were not a police state. I invite you and other readers to compare the statement under the PET scan on the ADHD controversy page with the one on the ADHD page. Why has that statement been removed here over and over? That very dramatic picture has been used over and over "proving" ADHD is really biological when in fact it proves absolutely nothing. It is what one would expect if the person with ADHD wasn't attending to the assigned task. It is also amazing that
Looking over your arguments Scuro, you seem to have used that scientology, critics are a fringe nut group, once too often. How about attending to science and logic rather, than we all must be crazy. One thing I will acknowledge. The majority of doctors, organizations and "experts" agree that ADHD is biological. The question is whether they are right, why they keep calling themselves "experts" about subjects that we don't have answers for. Take a look at the Frontline interview of the NIMH leading researcher, Dr. Castellanos on ADHD about how much we actually know with scientific validity frontline interview(and he is a true believer in the biological basis of ADHD) The more general question is about the nature of group-think which is not limited to psychiatrists. When I was in training no one dared question Freud. Now almost all conditions are considered biological. I believe part of that is the billions of dollars being spent on keeping people thinking that way. I meant what I said about the number of mailings, seminars, CD, internet e mails, ads in journals. It is absolutely amazing. It would be one thing if there had been some major scientific discovery about ADHD in the last few years, but that is not the case!!! It is simply the amount of money to be made out there. The reason so many editors of reputable journals are writing about this is that they are very upset about it. They are not scientology nuts. At some point even you Scuro have to realize that your repeated generalizations about critics is off the wall. Every once in a while I will check in here to see if you are still using that same perspective. If you are and are continuing to remove contrary posts I will pose the question again. Exactly who are you and why are you doing this?
I am also listed on Antipsychiaty links but that is a silly characterizations. We are clearly critics not antipsychiatrists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ss06470 ( talk • contribs) 12:20, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
I am also listed on Antipsychiaty links but that is a silly characterizations. We are clearly critics not antipsychiatrists. I am not trying to bash ADHD. I believe the description of it applies to many children, I just don't accept it is a biological illness that has inflicted millions and millions of children
You seem to rely an awful lot on ad hominem arguments I have used my search engine and see you are everywhere. I ask again who are you? What is your connection to Dr. Barkely? It is fine if you communicate but I would like to know whether you simply quote him a lot or regularly communicate. You may not be required by the rules here to reveal this, but in ordinary ideas about scholarship it is an absolute requirement so that your credentials can be considered, especially since you delight in attacking others by reference to character rather than the substance of arguments Also a word about Dr. Barkley. He recieves money from McNeil Pharmaceuticals (U.S.) and Janssen-Ortho (Canada) (speaker fees) Shire Pharmaceutical Co. (Consulting/speaker fees) Pfizer Pharmaceuticals, Eli Lilly Co. (Speaker/Consulting fees) I don't doubt his claims that the amounts are not a substantial part of his income, but if that is so why doesn't he end these connections?-- Ss06470 12:39, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Scuro, and many other "Scuros" are everywhere. This one is one of the editors of "Anti-Psychiatry" article that is written to put your work as nonsense. We have better laugh otherwise we'll end up so bitter with all these absurdities that we'll put in jeopardy our well-being. Let's wait till all this scandal that psychiatry is promoting with the help of so many will be finally uncovered. It'll take time. A lot of time for the work of "Scuros" are well paid and count on support of institutions and powerful people as you know quite well.-- Justana ( talk) 11:36, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Justana, you are new. You can't simply tee-off on someone in talk. Wikipedia is not a messageboard or a blog. Your accusations are baseless, desist or risk being blocked. Please desist in making personal comments/attacks in talk. WP:EQ As Wikipedia policy states, comment on the content and not the contributor. Thank you.-- scuro ( talk) 21:12, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Listen Dr. S. you are way off topic once again. Let me reiterate, your assumptions about me are wrong and I'm not going to post my real name or further personal information. What you are posting is irrelevant to this talk page or is of a personal nature. Continue with this and you will simply be ignored. -- scuro 15:50, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
i swear to god this article keeps getting shorter and shorter. is someone removing bits from each section or something? wasnt that treatment section way longer. this article used to be better, im sure i dont like it change it make it better its shit. fuck u all for making it crap. and it says 'comorbid conditions are ODD.' wtf? whos changing this article into a pile of cow faeces?—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])
I myself am ADHD (Though taking med) but since before I was even diagnosed up till now (At least seven years) I have been the smartest kid in my school -- not just grade, the entire school -- and if I was given the chance to take the 10th grade math TAKS test now I would probably ace it, yet I am only in 7th grade. Consequent of reading this article I am highly offended by the description of the prognosis of ADHD. This article does NOT conform to the NPOV policy and should be revised accordingly. eXtreme Circuitz 01:56, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
It's been two months now with no specific objections lodged. I'll remove the POV-section tag. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eubulides ( talk • contribs) 04:33, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Someone made a change to the introduction based on a BBC report, giving what seem to be preliminary, non-published results from the Multimodal Treatment study. The change about the results after one year was reasonable, that information was indeed published. The subsequent edit to show the three-year results, showing no long-term benefit, is based solely on the BBC report. That report has been widely echoed in the media as a "proof" that long-term results of ADHD drug use are nil. But I was unable to find any details of the actual new study. It is premature to incorporate such results in the introduction, which should be solid. The anonymous editor was properly reverted by User:Scuro. As to the one-year results, they might indeed be put into the article, with proper reference to the study itself (if it isn't already there, I haven't checked), but that's too much detail for an introduction. When the newer study is published, assuming it is published, after peer-review and facing general criticism within the field, some mention in the introduction might become proper and even important. This is a link to the BBC report: [2] -- Abd 18:00, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
I note the BBC report describes this condition as a 'behavioural condition' not a neurological one, and cites cases of children with obvious family and personality issues rather than focusing on 'pure' ADHD. It's interesting that many of those who are promoting non-drug approaches just happen to be those who make money from psychological and/or behavioural treatments that have even less evidence to support them. Of course many people with psychological or behavioural issues will benefit from therapy, but therapy cannot treat the underlying neurological condition. The BBC report neglects to discuss adult ADHD nor does it distinguish between ADHD and ODD. The simple fact is that for many people taking ADHD medication greatly improves their symptoms, of course if it doesn't they shouldn't take it and it's a good idea for people to have trial medication breaks now and then to test this. The diagnosis and treatment of ADHD is far from perfect and it is not clear that all or indeed most of those diagnosed with ADHD actually have the condition. I have ADHD and if I miss my meds, I feel like I can't see or focus properly, forget masses of basic things, feel overwhelmed and out of control rapidly and have no impulse control, and many others feel the same. I don't get violent and have a very high IQ and intellectual ability, but often underperform because of my ADHD symptoms. I'm so angry that the preliminary results of this one study are being blown out of all proportion and so many relevant facts are being overlooked. Another case of hype and scaremongering over science I'm afraid. Someone needs to tidy up the recent changes to this article that this BBC show seems to have inspired. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.132.206.195 ( talk) 21:35, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Hello. I am the one who posted the original BBC story. Sorry about the unsigned post. I wasn't using my computer then. Here is my suggestion
Vapour 23:44, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Note:I have seen some of the comments in online new media about this news. There are quite few negative comments from people who is on medication and who find the treatment helpful
Vapour 23:44, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
When removing substantial chunks of text, it's a courtesy to move it to the Talk page. That way, it is easier to find to reincorporate into the article, if needed. I agree that the intro was too long, so I haven't reverted this change, but there are facts here, with sources, that should probably go back into the article. I don't necessarily have time to do it....
Studies show that there is a familial transmission of the disorder which does not occur through adoptive relationships. [1] Twin studies indicate that the disorder is highly heritable and that genetics contribute about three quarters of the total ADHD population. [1] While the majority of ADHD is believed to be genetic in nature, [1] roughly 1/5 of all ADHD cases are thought to be acquired after conception due to brain injury caused by either toxins or physical trauma prenatally or postnatally. [1] According to a majority of medical research in the United States, as well as other countries, ADHD is today generally regarded as a chronic disorder for which there are some effective treatments. Over 200 controlled studies have shown that stimulant medication is an effective way to treat ADHD. [1] [2]
-- Abd 01:59, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
And editor changed the term ADD in the article to ADHD. While this may be a correct move (I think it is), the editor apparently used a text editor to replace all "ADD" with "ADHD", thus changing the word "additionally" to "ADHDitionally," as an example, and also changing the occurrence of the term "ADD" in a reference, the title of a paper," similarly. Another, more experienced editor reverted it as a quick fix. The reversion should have been explained in the edit summary or here. "Don't bite the newcomers." -- Abd 13:36, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
"A marked decrease in academic skills such as reading, spelling, or math is common with children who have ADHD." - Honestly, this has been the reverse in my experiences with peers and children diagnosed as such. While I can't change it (since this would be considered original research), I would sincerely appreciate a citation proving this effect. In my experiences, people with ADHD (or ADD) have been highly intelligent people with unique abilities. They are highly creative, able to focus very closely and for long periods of time on interesting tasks ("hyperfocus"), and able to remain comfortable in vague and imprecise subject matters, relying on the very same intuition that they attained as a coping mechanism in the non-ADHD world. kevinthenerd ( talk) 02:03, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
... since I last looked at the site. That's a well-working lobby for you. - 91.23.143.224 ( talk) 11:54, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
The reference section is ruined. And the introduction seems like it's attacking the idea before even introducing it. Someone clean up. 99.225.178.225 ( talk) 23:53, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Recent edits have been challenged because they give undue weight to minority or fringe opinions. Please seek consensus first on this talk page before making edits which other editors disagree with.-- scuro ( talk) 05:23, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Don't be ridiculous. The existence of 'ADHD' is challenged by qualified doctors and scientists, notably by Dr Fred Baughman, an experienced paediatric neurologist in his book 'The ADHD Fraud' . I have interviewed Dr Baughman about this at length, and think he makes a scientifically and medically coherent case which is ignored by this article in the bowdlerized form to which its self-appointed guiardians have repeatedly returned it. In science, those who wish to advance a theory must prove it through repeatable, peer-reviewed experiment. The supporters of the 'ADHD' theory have never, despite years of trying to do so, produced an objective test for its presence. Those who are diagnosed with it are likewise not diagnosed by an objective test but through a vague and subjective list of symptoms. It may well be true that powerful forces have an interest in promoting the idea that 'ADHD' exists, as do those parents who receive welfare benefits because their children have been 'diagnosed' with it, or the teachers whose formerly chaotic classes are now quiet because so many of their charges are now receiving powerful psychotropic medication whose long-term effects are as yet unknown. Whereas those who doubt it are not so powerful nor wealthy, and have no interest but a desire to search for the truth. I am being extremely fair, in my edits (which I propose to continue indefinitely until this article is fair) in leaving untouched the arguments of those who believe in ADHD, merely inserting language which makes clear that partisan assertions are not facts, and which also makes clear that the existence of this complaint is disputed. The size and extent of dissent against a popular or fashionable idea has no bearing upon its truth, or its right of expression. Scientific truth never has been, and cannot be, established by majority vote (not that I know of any ballot on this subject ever having been held) . If this were so almost no dissenting voice in science ( or any other field) could get a hearing on Wikipedia, and many theories now established as true would have been denied such a hearing at the time their discoverers were seeking to establish them . Their attempts to suppress the fact that this diagnosis has scientifically-and medically qualified critics, and remains unproven, and has no objective measure, are engaging in straightforward censorship and should desist. I have expressed some scepticism elsewhere about Wikipedia's unachievable fetish for a 'Neutral Point of View', but where there is deep division among scientists about the existence of a complaint then it is surely necessary for any article about that complaint to make that division clear from the start. Declaring those you disagree with to be a 'fringe' is simply ad hominem, and illegitimate in serious debate. Most established ideas have been thus dismissed at some stage. The scientific argument goes to the heart of the matter. Where is the objective test for a complaint which is generally treated by the prescription of highly objective, powerful chemicals which act directly upon the most sensitive and least-known organ of the human body, the brain? The contentiousness of 'ADHD' is the most important thing about it. Anyone researching it (especially, say , the parent of a child told by teachers or others that her child suffers from this alleged complaint) should be allowed to learn of this directly from Wikipedia. Peter Hitchens, signed in as Clockback ( talk) 19:19, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Peter Hitchens, signed in as Clockback ( talk) 23:07, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
I know that Clockback doesn't need my contribution or support on this matter but it seems to be a consensus thing and I believe this is important and that you are wrong in opposing him. I reverted the last edit because the 'disputed' tag was insufficient - it gave a link to the top of this talk page and you have to trawl through tons of stuff, inluding jokes, to find this issue. A reader probably wouldn't do that. You have proved that Clockback is right, in alerting us to the fact that there is an article stating exactly the opposite of this one. I think he is looking at this article from the point of view of a concerned, and possibly not that PC literate, parent. Logic would tell that parent that this entry would contain all the facts and it doesn't, it does what Clockback says it does - presents opinion as fact. Surely the most sensible thing to do would be to combine the two articles? I looked up ADHD tonight after a discussion with friends and typed in 'ADHD ADD wiki' and the 'controversy' was not listed - I expected all the facts to be in this article and they clearly are not. That's why I reverted and stated my opinion. I think the two articles should be combined. Miamomimi ( talk) 00:28, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Here is an example (of the fact that controversy isn't just "in the minds of antipsych critics and religious groups.."): "There is no escaping the fact that ADHD remains a controversial diagnosis, however. Some health practitioners believe it is under-diagnosed in the UK, and that children are going without the help and support they need in order to make the most of their education and life chances; other practitioners fear it is being over-diagnosed, and some have serious doubts about or even reject the concept of ADHD altogether." From a government website Ancadi ( talk) 09:56, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Once again: it's clear who are the people that take care of the Medical Editors Articles of Wikipedia. It must go to the medias because when people search the Web for ADHD the first article is Wikipedia. It has to stop.-- Justana ( talk) 11:51, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Simply because someone is, or was a Dr., doesn't make them a majority opinion or even minority opinion. There were many Dr.'s involved in the holocaust, could we quote from them and call it majority or minority opinion? No, Peter...you would do well to read up on Wiki policy in this regard. Here is the link to a PBS series on ADHD. Here we learn that Baughman was paid by Scientology. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/medicating/interviews/baughman.html. If you are still going to hang your hat on Baughman I can go to the trouble of finding more sources, and more direct quotes, like the quote where he discounts all scientific research on ADHD in the field. The point I am making is that he obviously biased, in fact I can think of no worse source to quote from on the topic of ADHD. His bias is blinding. He does tell a compelling subjective story though. We hear of the poor plight of duped parents often, he does make himself out to be a knight in shinning armor. Baughman does harp on constantly about how there is no medical test for the disease ADHD. First off, it is not a disease but a disorder. Disorders are disorders because if there was a known medical test for the condition they would be diseases. There are many disorders where there is no foolproof test for diagnosis and they would include conditions such as Tourettes, Schizophrenia, and Parkinsons. Oh I forgot, he denies all mental disorders exist.
You can call us names but in the end it will come down to citable sources. I've been involved in arbitration before. You better get your ducks all lined up in a row. Not attempting to cooperate with other editors, and then acting unilaterally would be a major strike against you. The first order of business would be to find good reliable sources which state the diagnosis of ADHD is a controversy. Good luck!-- scuro ( talk) 13:01, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) Right. -- Abd ( talk) 05:19, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
From what I remember reading from Baughman, this is what he believes:
All of these beliefs are fringe beliefs and taken as a whole show blinding bias more akin to a faith based belief system. Unlike scientists, Baughman's beliefs don't change over time. Go back decades and what he states then is identical to what he states now. Scientists on the other hand change their viewpoint as more information is known. All of this relates directly to his reliablity of the source.-- scuro ( talk) 17:20, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
I have indeed been 'warned' - by one of those involved in the controversy. I really cannot see why this is so significant. The self-appointed guardians of the page are apparently allowed to delete my legitimate alterations as many times as they like without penalty. But I am not allowed to do the same to them. I could just as well 'warn' him, if I knew how to post the fancy red triangle, but I don't. All I know how to do is to argue with facts and logic. My simple point, that this is a matter of contention, remains true and ought to be stated clearly at the start of the article. Wikipedia acknowledges this fact by maintaining an entry on the controversy. Your comparison of my position with that of a flat-earther is absurd and I could easily consider it abusive if I felt that way inclined. As it is, I have been abused by experts in my time, and am uninterested in that . Instead, I shall demonstrate the falsity of the comparisons by fact and logic, as follows: There are scientific proofs of the shape of the earth which are predictive, repeatable and objectively testable. That is why flat-earthers are absurd and it would be false equivalence to equate them with round-earthers. No such proofs exist of the existence of any complaint called 'ADHD', as even its advocate above admits. Therefore the burden of proof actually still rests on those who contend that there is such a thing as 'ADHD', as they well know, which is why they get so upset (and intolerant) when anybody says the emperor hasn't even got any socks on. The 'abuse' to which I refer is the repeated ad hominem abuse (undoubted and repeated) and unsubstantiated allegations (see above) levelled without evidence against Dr Baughman (to which outrage and offence against civilised debate you respond above with the mildest possible language, compared to the stern tone you take with me - and by the way I was well aware of the sidebar when I made my comment). The threats are exactly that, repeated threats to report me etc, which are never actually fulfilled, much as I would like them to be - another characteristic of threats. What other word would you use? I'm happy to adopt any reasonable alternative. And now you're doing it too. If I continue *what* without caution? I'm stating my case on the talk page, with great patience and despite the unwillingness of my opponents to deal with my arguments, clearly made. Their only response is to make nasty remarks about Dr Baughman. I have held off restoring the censored material in the hope of a compromise. I continue to do so. But a compromise involves some movement by the pro-ADHD faction which appears to think it owns this entry. Peter Hitchens, logged in as Clockback ( talk) 17:24, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
No, I am not aware of any such thing. An ad hominem attack is an attack on the person( eg the attacks by some above on Dr Fred Baughman). I have attacked the methods and the arguments(or rather the lack of them) of those who have arrogated themselves the right to censor legitimate contributions. I have also clearly stated that I will not change the article while I seek a compromise. No compromise has yet been offered by the unquestionably pro-ADHD editors who have removed my edits on the grounds that they do not agree with them. At least, they have yet to produce any other grounds. I would happily negotiate an improvement with anybody who showed any sign of negotiating anything. All I get is ad hominem attacks on Fred Baughman, and threats to report me to the authorities, which I beg the authors to act on. Please. Peter Hitchens, signed in as Clockback ( talk) 21:35, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Since there undoubtedly is, as acknowledged by the existence of a separate Wikipedia entry on that very controversy, the article is seriously deficient because of its lack of NPOV on the dispute between those who believe in 'ADHD' and those who don't, and also because of the persistent use of weasel expressions, especially the passive voice. We have already established in this discussion that even those who believe in 'ADHD' accept that there is no objective test for its presence, and therefore cannot maintain it is an established or undisputed scientific fact, or even one open to disproof. Please do respond soon. I have refrained from further edits in the hope of a compromise, but cannot wait indefinitely for any sign of one. Peter Hitchens, logged in as Clockback ( talk) 08:35, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
To 'Abd': 'Versageek', the administrator you mentioned, is a participant in this discussion and appears to me to take one side rather than the other. This is a simple fact. See above. Clockback ( talk) 08:50, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
I am not sure any of you are reading what I am saying. I am taking this seriously. I have not touched the entry for days and await proposals for a modification. What are you all waiting for? The faults of the existing entry are clear under Wikipedia's own rules - an absence of NPOV on the two sides of the controversy, and the extraordinarily pervasive use of weasel words, especially the passive voice, in the article. It is absurd to pretend that no controversy exists ( several British journalists have written critically about this theory, and about the mass prescription of methylphenidate) and monstrous to belittle dissenters by classifying them as 'fringe', solely on the grounds that you don't agree with them. I have made my arguments quite plain. All orthodoxies dismiss their opponents as 'fringe'. That is what orthodoxies do. Dr Baughman's critique of the ADHD lobby's attempt to provide the objective evidence it knows it needs ( and cannot get) is contained in his book 'The ADHD Fraud' which I am sure he would make available on line. Please stop lecturing me about my many undoubted faults, and come up with some proposals, sooner rarther than later. I do not know what 'the question of a subjective diagnosis was brought up by you' means, or is intended to signify. Of course I brought it up. I brought it up because it is crucial to the argument,objective diagnosis being the general rule in medicine, and goes unmentioned in the article. Peter Hitchens, logged in as Clockback ( talk) 17:03, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Good for you, Landcamera. But your contribution is contradictory. If I have an anti-ADHD bias, and I absolutely do, as I clearly state above, doesn't it cross your mind that you, and others who like things as they are, might - just possibly - have a teeny-weeny little pro-ADHD bias? In which case, golly, there's a controversy, which is unreflected in the entry, hence the NPOV problem. Peter Hitchens, logged in as Clockback ( talk) 17:52, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
I wrote the above before seeing Clockback's last edit, and I realized that I intended to add one more comment: the article *does* recognize controversy, with reference to the controversies article. So Clockback's assertion that it doesn't, quite simply, is not true, it is, at best, incautious. (However, that article *cannot* be cited as any kind of proof that controversy is notable, and assertions that it does show that merely demonstrate that the writer has not studied the guidelines and policies. Wikipedia is not a reliable source, period, not yet (not unless and until there is some kind of reliable peer-review process). -- Abd ( talk) 18:34, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
::::may I ask who cares? Landcamera900 ( talk) 19:09, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
I have requested a third party, not involved in this edit war, to either compose a re-write themselves or request another editor to action the change. Personally I have no agenda here but do not have the time to change the article myself, sorry. It seems clear to me that a change is needed as the balance and NPOV of the ADHD article is compromised by the weighting of the link to the controversy over ADHD; it is tucked away at the bottom and easily missed. There IS a controversy over this issue, not just here but within the medical community, and that should be included with due prominence at the beginning of the article. Either that or the edits that Clockback made should be reinstated. I have stated my preference earlier. In fact I think the first section could do with a re-write; it contains no history. Miamomimi ( talk) 20:31, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
A number of editors have claimed that there is a controversy with ADHD as a disorder. I have asked several times here in talk for a good reliable citation that demonstrates this contention. What national health institution, legal judgement, scientific body, or higher institute of learning recognizes that ADHD is a controversial diagnosis or controversial condition? These are the pillars of society and I have yet to see any pillar of society seriously question ADHD. The clear avoidance of providing a citation or even responding to this citation request is a glaring omission on the part of editors demanding change to the article. Communication is part of consensus building.--21:07, 8 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scuro ( talk • contribs)
Miamomimi, thanks for the link. I have no doubt that there are oodles of social critics that think that ADHD is a controversial disorder. The controversy of adhd article clearly illustrates this. But social critics are a dime a dozen and typically don't carry that much weight on WIki. When we look at the pillars of society, they all accept ADHD as a diagnosis. For example, take a look at the 5 state judgments in the ritalin class action lawsuits. Those lawsuits examined the very issue we are dealing with right now. All of the cases were withdrawn by the plaintiffs before they even went to trial. Why? Because the judges wouldn't let them frame the case in the light they wanted to depict ADHD in, they realized they didn't have a leg to stand on.-- scuro ( talk) 21:36, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
This whole debate is silly, there is no NPOV issue, only some people unhappy they cant spin the article to get their little message out. People come to the article to learn about the disorder not to have wackjob anti-psych conspiracy theories thrown in their face (there is a whole article already dedicated to that issue already) And on a side note having ADHD I'm positive that the veiws of others who dont have it, and want to dispute it, have no merit. you cant convince me to disbelieve something I feel every minute of every day. Landcamera900 ( talk) 03:27, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Here is a first draft for a suggested improved version of entry. It's by no means finished, and there is a severe technical mess at the beginning where I can;'t seem to get the (rather important)text between the references to appear. It's readable if you go into edit mode, but not currently on the page) Can a more skilled person please help? but I would hope it would form a basis for reasoned discussion. I have not yet dealt with the controversy over whether brain differences measure pre-existing states, or simply chart the fact that some people have different brains because of the way they use them. I'd be delighted if someone else could tackle this particularly contentious passage, but if not will get round to it myself in time. Peter Hitchens, logged in as Clockback ( talk) 17:12, 9 January 2008 (UTC) :
Dear Mr Camera, I am trying quite hard to reach a sensible compromise, and do not seek to fool anyone. . Don't you think you should try too? Once again, can someone with the tech skills please unscramble the references, because at present only part of the introduction is visible here, though it can be read if you click on 'edit'. PH signed in as Clockback ( talk) 20:03, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Clockback - I think you have done a good job on the ADHD article but I see what you mean about text being lost when published. A general rule about any programming is, if you open an instruction, to close it. As this is a general rule, for visibility here I'm using round brackets instead of pointy ones, if I use the correct tag it will action the command. So, to make something a reference it would be (ref)something(/ref) see? the (ref) starts the instruction and the (/ref) closes the command. In your editing I first notice a command to start a reference but no close, so everything until a close is considered the reference:
(ref) [6]
should be (ref) [7](/ref)
or if you use the edit option on this page you can see the real thing:
[3] and text goes on as normal.....
Ok now because of the square brackets it's a hot-link reference anyway but notice that one is superscript, that's what the ref command does.
I'm not up on Wiki programming so not equal to amending the article (and pushed for time at the mo) but I think that might be why you are losing text when published.
If you know this already please don't be offended - missing end tags is the easiest thing in the world, we all do it.
Aside If still having the weasel words accusation (and no one else is helping out) perhaps changing the sentence around would cut down on the offending weasels?
eg. They maintain that the disorder typically presents itself during childhood, and is characterized by a persistent pattern of inattention and/or hyperactivity, as well as forgetfulness, poor impulse control or impulsivity, and distractibility.[5][6] They also consider it to be a persistent and chronic condition for which no medical cure is available.
could become: The apparent disorder, characterized by a persistent pattern of inattention and/or hyperactivity, as well as forgetfulness, poor impulse control or impulsivity, and distractibility.[5][6], typically presents itself during childhood and is considered to be a persistent and chronic condition for which no medical cure is available.
just a thought, now I really must get my head into the french revolution. C'est la guerre! Miamomimi ( talk) 23:57, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Draft moved to a subpage, please edit the subpage -- Versa geek 21:45, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
I think the working draft is a major improvement on the existing entry, giving due prominence to doubts about the diagnosis while also giving full expression to the views of those who support it, so allowing a lay reader to form an independent opinion, and stimulating her into further research. I am grateful for the work that's gone into it. That is not to say that I think it goes far enough. I would still criticise the use of the passive voice, as in 'generally considered'. Actually, (see Kealey and Greenfield) it's not 'generally considered'to be this ( if 'generally' is taken to mean 'more or less universally' , but is considered so by some, emphatically not considered so by others, and doubted in broad terms by yet others). The most recent Buffalo University study of methylphenidate, which is the chosen response of most doctors to the diagnosis, is a blow at that prescription, and by implication at that diagnosis. I also think the description greatly underplays the role of medication in treament, merely mentioning it as one aspect among many, when it is in fact the preponderant response. It is by far the most important medical reaction to diagnoses of ADHD, and by far the most significant in its major effects on those who take it. Among the most prominent critics of the diagnosis are those with the most precise scientific knowledge of disorders of the brain (see Baughman. You may dislike his tone, and I would prefer it if he were more restrained in his arguments, but he remains a qualified and experienced neurologist, which few, if any, of his critics are) . And the use of terms such as 'ADHD students' and 'ADHD kids' assumes that one side in the controversy is correct. hence my formula of 'diagnosed with ADHD', which the eagle-eyed will note is a retreat from my original "considered by supporters of the diagnosis to suffer from ADHD". What is the next step? Peter Hitchens, signed in as Clockback ( talk) 10:58, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't know why I bothered. Miamomimi ( talk) 11:48, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
"Generally considered" may be improved upon. A more specific term could be used. It's not as bad as "some". Yes, I also think that medications role is underplayed. If treatment is employed, it may not be the first option but typically is the option which has the most success and which is also used for longer periods of time. I don't know if this information can be sourced. Baughman on the other hand is proverbially out to lunch. Come on now, one prescribed dose of Ritalin will forever change your brain? He has made so many bogus and controversial statements that he is easily shown as being not a reliable source. In the field of science he is largely ignored. As mentioned before, find other critics such as Gullieman(sp?). -- scuro ( talk) 12:49, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Miamomimi should not be so downhearted. Technophobes like me are not much helped by detailed instructions on where to put brackets, round or square, however well-meant and kindly they may be. Our brains glaze over. (You might as well give us detailed remote instructions on how to fly an aeroplane. We'd still crash it, while asking "WHICH red button on the left....I can't see it...Oh... you mean that one? No, not that one....)If we knew where to put the brackets, we would have put them there. Indeed, we tried in this case to do so, but it didn't turn out as planned. What we need is for someone who knows how to do it, to do it for us. AS for Scuro, yes, a dose of methylphenidate will change your brain for research purposes, that is to say, anyone who has taken it will scan differently from anyone who hasn't. If you can show me anything Baughamn has said about ADHD that is demonstrably false, then please do. It's the general 'out to lunch' type of comments which are just ad hominem, as are attempts to discredit his attacks on ADHD by reference to his opinions on other matters. It's his arguments on ADHD which we are discussing , not his qualities as a human being, and teh ad hominem stuff compels me to defend him. Remember, he is a neurologist and medical practitioner with many years in paediatric practice ( skills which don't always give a man any special abilities in public relations or presentation, but which nonetheless require some respect when the subject under discussion is an alleged malfunction in the brains of children. And one of his own children was diagnosed with ADHD, which was the beginning of his interest in the subject. Peter Hitchens, logged in as
Clockback (
talk) 13:32, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
I reverted some non-DSM symptoms that were added by an IP address, but it occurred to me that a section on other symptoms could be useful - this could include the "bridging time" and other frontal problems noted by Barkley, as well as sleep disorder and eating disorder tendencies. Thoughts? -- Vannin ( talk) 17:35, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
“Once Ritalin or any psychiatric drug courses through their body, they are, for the first time, physically, neurologically, biologically, abnormal.” ~~Dr. Fred Baughman http://www.pseudo-adhd.oism.info/en/doc/Fred_Baughman_2006_en.htm
So a child upon taking their first dose of Ritalin would be forever changed. There body would change, there mind would change, and I think he is also implying that their genes would change. A child on their first trial of Ritalin will have received the lowest dose possible. It's not at all unusual at this dose that the child will experience and feel nothing...yet this is to change the child forever? A simply stunningly outlandish declaration for which I can find no citable support. Do you know of a reliable source which can back up this claim?
I don't have a scientific degree yet I found this exchange on talk about Zametiken enlightening. After you read that section, scroll further down the page for more sections on the same topic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Attention-deficit_hyperactivity_disorder/Archive_3#ADHD_Imaging
-- scuro ( talk) 21:05, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
OH, Mr Camera, what would we do without you? How unimprovably witty and trenchant. Anyone who wants to know my own position on this matter in full may turn to: http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2007/05/the_adhd_fantas.html PH, logged in as Clockback ( talk) 12:48, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Landcamera900 - you're right, it's also the source of the longest kiss in history.
Scuro - you seem intent on convincing
Clockback that your viewpoint is the only valid and sensible one and that he should therefore adopt it too and thus the controversy Clockback seeks to include in the article should by default be deemed invalid and unnecessary. I see no point in this argument - the controversy over ADHD exists and arguments over that truth are redundant. Baughman is a credible, qualified source and should be cited in the article. That is my view. /endcoffee.
Miamomimi (
talk) 14:09, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I am in agreement with Clockback and Miamomimi and I believe Scuro is entirely missing the point, which is not the finer detail of whether or not the proponents or opponents of the existence of ADHD are right or wrong. It is about whether disagreement and controversy exists within the medical profession and the media over the actual existence and objective means of diagnosis of ADHD. Which it does. Therefore it should be included in the article. Simple. Nsign ( talk) 14:54, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks to Miamomimi and Nsign. I really think we may be getting somewhere. Scuro, please pause for a moment. Note that I have conceded that Baughman has faults in his rhetoric and his tendency to pump up the temperature. We agree on that. Pocket the concession, please. But how important is it, given that he's a qualified neurologist?(and you, I think, are not) You allege that Baughman produces 'bogus facts'. A 'bogus fact' would presumably be untrue. Please give an example of one. You haven't yet, though what you repeatedly do is take a small piece of Baughman and then build upon it your own interpretation. You then proceed to say this interpretation( not Baughman's original statement) is flawed. As a method of argument, this is lacking in force. In any case, you seem to be disputing something that's not actually disputed by your own allies. Brains are measurably physically affected by drugs, and also by certain patterns of use and behaviour. I don't think you'd find a neurologist disputing the likelihood that Methylphenidate could alter the configuration of the brain of a person who took it. The brains of London cab-drivers are famously altered (in a physically measurable way) because of the special effort they need to make to memorise 'the Knowledge', a comprehensive grasp of the London streetmap on which they are rigorously tested before they are licensed. It is perhaps the toughest memory test in existence, but I imagine that students in hard subjects, such as sciences or languages, probably undergo similar changes while they are cramming for exams. The point that Ritalin affects the brains of those who take it, thus affecting any comparison for research purposes, hasn't so far as I know been disputed by Ritalin advocates. Why should it be? If the drug didn't affect the operation of the brain, it wouldn't be any use for the purpose to which they assign it. The dispute is a) whether this drug is justified by the ADHD diagnosis b) whether it is an effective or appropriate treatment for it. Its defenders and opponents can both agree that it has an effect, ncessarily physical and chemical, on the brains of recipients. Is it specially unreasonable to suggest that drug companies, as the source of so much funding and general largesse, have an influence on research, on the oprescribing habits of doctors and on the publication of peer-reviewed articles? I doubt you would find many serious scientists or doctors who would dispute that, any more than you would find many naturalists arguing about the tendency of bears to defecate in wooded areas. On a scale of outrageous statements from one to ten, that one doesn't rate very high. My point is that it can't be shown that Baughman's passion has caused him to be either lax or mistaken(or worse) in his science. If it can, my argument on Baughman's value falls. I accept that. But you can't prove Baughman mistaken by exaggerating Baughman's statements, and then attacking him for making exaggerated statements. PH signed in as Clockback ( talk) 15:44, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
fulfilled your desire for a pillar of society dubious about the ADHD diagnosis and its treatment with drugs, as does Susan Greenfield, another distinguished scientist, who happens to be a member of the British House of Lords, an Oxford professor and an acknowledged expert on the brain. ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/health/7093944.stm) Then again there's the Buffalo University study, which has led to questions being asked about Ritalin in the House of Lords. ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/uk/7090011.stm) I don't think anyone's 'reading your mind' about Fred Baughman. It's rather you who are reading his, by taking his statements, making exaggerated claims about them not justified by the text you produce, and then condmening them for being exaggerated. We may not know what you're thinking, but on the other hand we certainly know what you're *saying*, since you keep saying it, and it's presumably the same as what you're thinking. And I keep responding. There is no logical reason why Baughman's status as a propagandist axiomatically discredits his statements as a doctor and scientist. You're entitled to suspect that it might be so, but not to assume that it is so. And your suspicion is of no value by itself. You then have to establish , by example, that your suspicion is correct. And you haven't. Baughman is not unique as a critic. Other doctors are concerned about this (I have spoken privately to British neurologists deeply concerned, but unwilling to speak publicly because of the great power of the ADHD lobby) and I expect many more will be when it's safer to say so. He's unique in that he has single-mindedly devoted himself to the issue, has written a book about it and has an ideal combination of qualifications (Neurologist, Paediatrician) to discuss brain disorders in children. He's also retired, and therefore pretty much immune to the sort of pressures that orthodox conformism can place upon professionals. Plus one of his own children was diagnosed with 'ADHD'. Further, I have spent several hours with him and believe him to be a serious, decent and courageous person, and would count it an act of personal betrayal if I didn't defend him against ad hominem attacks. PH logged in as Clockback ( talk) 17:24, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) Procedurally, Scuro is mostly correct. Writing long screeds in Talk can be tempting, I've been known to do it myself (too often), but, in the end, what this is all about is text in the article. One can argue as convincingly as possible on a Talk page, but who is going to put reliably sourced, NPOV text on the controversy in the article? Does Clockback expect Scuro to do it? Maybe, miracles do happen. Contrary to what Clockback has been claiming, there is recognition on Wikipedia that the controversy exists. The question is not its existence, but its notability, on the balance between positions. My opinion is that the controversies (there exist more than one) belong in this article, in summary form, with detail in the Controversies article. But the exact language for doing that is not necessarily going to be easy to write, and it is crazy to expect Scuro to write it. Given the gap between the sides here, I'm not going to volunteer to write it, I suspect that I'd be wasting my time. But I will look at *edits* of the article made by others and check them. I've been saying for days, now: make *one* change to the article, you who think the article is biased. Make one change that starts to balance out the bias. If you can't get *one* change, you certainly are not going to get dozens. If you can't get specific reference to the controversy deeper in the article, you aren't going to get it in the introduction. And if you can't clean up and make reliably sourced the Controversies article, how can you expect to do it with the main article, where it's harder? (It's harder due to heavier notability requirements.) One step at a time. Or else continue to waste time and energy blowing hot air and parading your imagined position as seen from the future.
I've looked at a few of the sources claimed by Clockback, and while they might be quite adequate as fodder for a newspaper op-ed column, they are primary sources, not reviewed. An example of this would be testimony before a legislative body, which is, quite simply, the opinion or report of the person giving the testimony and *necessarily* has not been reviewed, fact-checked, and edited. All it takes is a friend in high places to get such testimony admitted. It can indeed be relevant, but, alone, it does not establish balance, it doesn't show us the degree to which controversy exists. If we have one specific edit to look at, we can start to consider the nature of the claimed source, in detail, whether or not the source is being interpreted ("original research") or warped, whether or not it is in itself a biased source, and all those other questions. We can't do this with ten claims and twenty sources simultaneously, and it all becomes generalizations about "my opponents" and "wiki truth" and other matters which simply add more heat than light and which are ultimately irrelevant. -- Abd ( talk) 18:00, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
Peter Hitchens, logged in as Clockback ( talk) 10:16, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
IF you are going round in circles, it is because you never actually respond to my arguments or the facts I adduce to support them. Instead you change the subject(see below for the latest attempt to do so), or unilaterally classify my supporting facts as irrelevant, something you couldn't do in a genuinely unbiased forum, which (regrettably) this isn't. I have no special knowledge of Schizophrenia, or the other complaints you mention (though I am aware of controversies about Schizophrenia, and of the changing nature of the official description and treatment of it over the past few decades, and also of the growing suspicion that is often triggered by the abuse of psychotropic drugs, which suggests strongly that (unlike 'ADHD') it has a physical, biochemical existence and cause) and therefore don't attempt to influence the content of Wikipedia pages about them. You only invite me to give my views on them so that you can commence an ad hominem attack against me for my alleged ignorance or naivety, based no doubt upon your own self-awarded profound knowledge of these subjects, which probably even outclasses your special self-awarded understanding of neurology, you know, the one which enables you to dismiss with a wave of the hand the statements of people qualified in neurology but with whom you disagree, thus enabling you to cancel out any knowledge they may have of the subject in which they possess a university degree and some years of experience in medical practice, and you don't.(Or if you do, you've missed many opportunities to say so) Sorry, my dear fellow. I won't oblige, though it's clear that not all 'disorders' share the same positive characteristics, even if they do all share the same negative characteristics of not being diseases. Therefore one can have different views about each of them, and that dismissing one by no means commits me to dismiss them all. I entirely understand why you wish to change the subject - you're losing very badly on this one and of course don't wish to admit that to yourself or to me. There are no objective demonstrable scientific facts in the whole 'ADHD ' article, and you don't mind that at all, because of your partisan position. You match your relaxed complaisance on this rather important failing with a furious rigour over who is qualified to express doubts about this fantastical complaint, and what can be classified as a doubt. So far as I can see, unless someone comes right out and says 'ADHD doesn't exist' that's not a doubt for you. But even in that case I have allies. But they are on the 'fringe', so they don't count. Circular, ain't it? How could I possibly win against such an attitude? I do, however, have some knowledge about 'ADHD' and a disinterested desire to see that the truth is more widely known. Do you, by the way, have an interest in this? If so, would you be so kind as to declare it? I didn't 'agree' that ADHD isn't a disease. I had no need to do so. I have never claimed that it is. I always describe it as a 'complaint' so as to avoid this problem. But lay people, especially worried parents, may in many cases not grasp the distinction between a disease and a 'disorder', and so will accept the glaring medical and scientific nonsequitur that a complaint without physical or biochemical symptoms can be treated with phsyical and bicohemical interventions. The interesting thing about 'ADHD' is that it is treated as if it were a highly specific disease, while being amomng the vaguest and least objective among the disorders. The mismatch is huge. Please deal with this, and the absence of fact from the 'ADHD' article, which I think you have implicitly conceded by failing to supply one.. That way you can stop going round in circles. I am exactly where I have been since the start, sticking to scientific truth, rigorous logic and objective fact. PH logged in as Clockback ( talk) 13:12, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
You write well Clockback, and I admire your tenacity and the amount of time you have spent debating. Unfortunately talk is not a debate, there are no winners or losers, and I don't think anyone has changed someone else's mind. The effort of consensus on the big picture seems fruitless. So I can agree with Abd, if you want change, pick a single point and cite it well. A properly cited point is difficult to remove. All the best. -- scuro ( talk) 22:07, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
You might wish to start a blog or visit a forum if you want to convince people of the merits of your favorite views. `` WP:SOAP -- scuro ( talk) 02:04, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Clockback, the quote isn't mine. It comes directly from the Wiki policy page on Soapboxing. -- scuro ( talk) 12:46, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
per Wikipedia guidelines. So I added it. NuclearWinner ( talk) 22:25, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't disagree that the existence of the disorder is disputed, what I disagree with is that those who dispute it's existence are a noteworthy minority opinion. I can provide citations from major health organizations around the world. None of them speak of the controversy of the diagnosis or ADHD's existence as a disorder. I have yet to see one good citation that clearly claims either premise.-- scuro ( talk) 03:21, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
I understand that there are those who dispute the existance; I think that they perhaps confuse mis-diagnosis, and over-diagnosis, with non-existence. I was initially diagnosed in 1966, when it was called MBD, Minimal Brain Dysfunction, but, as those who didn't treat me, then, said, Honors Engineering students couldn't have that. Now we know better, and a couple of years ago I was started on Strattera. It's made a difference in my life; others who are close to me notice when I've forgotten to take it. htom ( talk) 06:14, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm not confused I simply strive for a more balanced article which represents the true picture of medical opinion about this condition. I have no personal agenda concerning it's existence or non-existence. Clockback has worked hard on a draft re-write of the article to achieve this ( see this link) and I think it would be better if someone with the necessary technical skills could sort out the code such that we could all see the result and evaluate that. The edit that NuclearWinner made to the existing article seemed just fine to me and in the absence of a re-write, wholly necessary. I see the edit war continues and now I must rely on others with more experience and authority than me to sort it out. Miamomimi ( talk) 11:15, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
-- scuro ( talk) 17:06, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) Miamomimi, I've been looking for sources meeting WP:RS to justify more prominent mention of the controversy in the introduction. I have seen no attempt to put text from these sources into the article, just a more diffuse attempt to make the article "balanced" by inserting weasel words. It's an error to think that this is merely the attempt of one side to maintain some dominance in the article. Rather, consider other encyclopedias and sources of information for the general public. Do they mention the controversy? Generally, not. However, there are a few reliable sources that do, I suspect, but the question remains one of balance. That, say, PBS gives some space to Boughman does not mean that there should be *much* in this article, i.e., that every mention of the disorder becomes "alleged disorder." There is an article on Controversy about ADHD that needs improvement, better sourcing and balance, and that article has a lower need for notability for controversy to be described, because the very article is about controversy. Here, the balance issue raises its sometimes difficult head. From what I've been able to find, there are "controversies" about ADHD, but very little wide support for a general condemnation of the diagnosis itself, there are isolated critics, for the most part. But the problem is (1) lack of reliable source, and (2) especially lack of reliable secondary source, for an individual criticism is often a *primary* source. See WP:PRIMARY. A judgment of balance requires secondary (or tertiary) sources, though sometimes if editors can find a consensus, a reasonable balance may be achieved without that. This is where the rampant assumptions of bad faith become truly problematic.
These issues cannot be well addressed in the abstract, and that is exactly what Clockback attempted to do at such length above. With a specific piece of text being introduced or proposed, and a specific proposed source, we can then examine it and see if we can find consensus. Until then there is nothing to do an RFC on, nothing to mediate, nothing to arbitrate, no way to apply policy.
Clockback did set up, contrary to my advice, an attempt to edit the whole article at once. He placed it here in Talk, which was poor procedure. An admin (Clockback had been edit warring with this administrator and came within a hair's breadth of being blocked) moved it to a subpage, but the whole idea was a bad one, wasting his time, and mostly simply inserting weasel words -- but, because of his incompetence and unwillingness to learn -- he was told exactly what to do -- it cannot be easily read. There is no way we can work on the whole article at once if we can't even agree on a single piece of text about the controversy!
There are three current problems with the article: (1) lack of sources for text -- and I've found one place I'll see if I can fix today where the text (a piece offensive to Clockback) is a misleading interpretation of the source -- and (2) Weasel words instead of specific language. It's mostly lazy editing, it's much easier to say "Some disagree" than to actually provide usable sources to show the disagreement and allow readers to check in detail for themselves. -- Abd ( talk) 19:01, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Here is an example of something Clockback put into his draft:
(The draft is at Talk:Attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder/Working Draft)
User:Scuro removed this text in one of his edits, making the draft article visible. I have here edited it to make it visible here, otherwise it would have blanked the entire remainder of this Talk page!
A British government minister, Baroness Royall, recently acknowledged concerns about the absence of a diagnostic test for ADHD during a debate in the House of Lords [4] on 14th November 2007. This discussion followed doubts about the effectiveness of Ritalin as a treatment (and implied doubts about the diagnosis leading to its prescription) raised in a study by the University of Buffalo [5], and pursued by the noted British expert on the human brain, Baroness (Susan) Greenfield [6], Professor of Synaptic Pharmacology at Lincoln College, Oxford, and Director of the Royal Institution. Other critics go a great deal further. Dr Fred Baughman, a paediatric neurologist, attacks the disorder as a 'Fraud' in his book 'The ADHD Fraud' ( ISBN 141206458-9, Trafford Publishing 2005)and asserts that the original statement of the National Institutes of Health Consensus Conference on ADHD on 18th November 1998 said "we do not have an independent valid test for ADHD' ( p.183) but adds (in a footnote on page 259)that this wording was later removed.
Clockback had placed ref tags incorrectly, and a user who tried to tell him described it but didn't know, apparently, how to show wiki markup without causing the markup to be active -- you place everything between <nowiki> and </nowiki> tags. Ref tags should be placed as <ref> before the reference and </ref> after it; Clockback had <ref><ref> preceding the reference text, with no closure tag, with a /, making everything after it invisible.
What was the problem with this text, besides being unable to read it? Well, the speech in the House of Lords is primary source. It is not subject to peer review, nor to any kind of judgment, aside from a very informal judgment of someone inviting the speaker, or the speaker having a seat, as to balance and accuracy. I shudder at the thought that we could, for example, cite a speech by a politician, speaking on the floor of the U.S. Senate, as to fact and balance regarding, say, global warming. Such a speech establishes some level of notability for an opinion, but not necessarily enough to counterbalance a broad consensus for an encyclopedia article. What do doubts about Ritalin have to do with the subject of an ADHD diagnosis? That's a *treatment*, which might be effective, ineffective, or beside the point. Note that we cannot take a source and "imply" something from it, then stating the implication. That's original research, and it is the source of much conflict over articles. As to Fred Baughman, he's got his own article (which could use some work, note that biographies of living people have special requirements, see WP:BLP, and his work definitely should be described at some length in the Controversy about ADHD article. But here, it's *argument*. It may deserve an external link here as well as on the Controversy article, but labeled appropriately. Baughman is a notable critic of the ADHD diagnosis and of its treatment with drugs; his web site, however, is not a reliable source (it is "self-published") for anything except his position on things. Where he gives sources, and they can be verified, then the sources themselves might be usable.
Here is the real problem: it is hard to do good writing on this topic. It requires serious research. The critical material and much else necessary to write well about it is hidden behind the wall of access-for-fee that is common for peer-reviewed journals. Sometimes we can find, say on Baughman's site or somewhere else, quotation from the peer-reviewed articles. That can be used, but with proper notation, i.e., "as quoted by," and even that is shaky. To really do this work, someone would need to have access to a good library or an academic or other account with the journal archives. Someone like Clockback can read Baughman and get fired up and write at length, but to really do what is needed takes a lot more patience and persistence. It's *work*! And it's hard enough for me to sit back and look at what the people with various points of view come up with. I'll leave it to the young people with the time and energy to haunt a medical library to do the footwork. Note that we will generally assume that a clear quotation from a peer-reviewed source that is not *easily* -- i.e., on the web -- verified is properly quoted, that is part of what WP:AGF is about, but there are exceptions, and one might be a claim from an editor who is known to exaggerate and quote out of context. -- Abd ( talk) 19:41, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
This is a complex discussion, it is necessary to be able to read in order to follow it. I am, today, making my first revert, I think, on this article, of unsourced material, I've not been blocking anything. What bullying? Suggesting to a clearly inexperienced but highly opinionated editor that he make one change at a time? I addressed in detail the problems with the sources cited by Clockback. There were many, and densely addressed above. If any editor cares to address one of these, we can review it in detail.
I've told Clockback again and again that I would assist with getting appropriate material into the article, but that I could not necessarily find it myself. Since he was so certain he is right, surely he has reasons for such a strong belief, surely he is relying on reliable sources. Or not, as the case may be. Frankly, it would serve us all if he were not merely bluffing; I'm still waiting for usable edits. As I have time, I'll make some myself, but cleaning up the mess may come first. ADHD. Ever hear of Messies Anonymous? -- Abd ( talk) 05:09, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
This message is to Miamomimi and other editors who are expending time and effort to make the talk page personal. I'd strongly advise that you read Principles of Wikipedia etiquette. Further insults directed in my direction will result in warnings on your talk page followed by appropriate action. Ignorance is no longer an excuse.
In particular: assume good faith WP:FAITH, work towards agreement, argue facts, not personalities, and don't ignore questions. These points all come from the policy page.-- scuro ( talk) 22:01, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
The citations in the main ADHD article support the opening sentence above. If those citations are not satisfactory, type in Neurobiological and adhd to find a wack more. The issue has previously also been discussed in talk.-- scuro ( talk) 05:30, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
-- Abd ( talk) 21:29, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Okay so Attention Deficit Hyperactivity disorder.......is not a disorder....hmmm I'm trying to follow the logic here. They called it a disorder because it's not? I can't believe that I am having this discussion or that it would take further references to change your mind Abd. Wouldn't this fall under the common sense policy?-- scuro ( talk) 05:02, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
I'll add to this:
Barrylb ( talk) 14:45, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
User:Scuro edited the intro phrase to "Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD), or Hyperkinetic Disorder as officially known in the UK (though ADHD is more commonly used), is generally considered to be a neurobehavioural developmental disorder.
So ... ADH Disorder is a disorder. Sure. Why repeat the word? It's bad writing, basically, and it just isn't necessary in the intro. ADHD is more than a developmental disorder, The NINDS article, in the lead, doesn't call it a "developmental disorder." It uses that term later in the article, and it is referring to the disorder in *children.* See above, where I went over the language. I chose "neurobehavioral condition" because condition is, in fact, a term which includes disorders, it is neutral, it does not suppose pathology -- part of the whole controversy --, it doesn't require the weasel words "generally considered" that Scuro inserted, it is justified by substantial sources, though it is not the majority usage.
I changed it back to "neurobehavioral condition," and took out the "generally considered." Does Scuro want to give undue weight to the controversy?
Looking over the intro, I see that it's poorly written in another way. The qualifications about terminology really whack the flow of text, making it hard to read. I'll fix that. -- Abd ( talk) 04:24, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Some have questioned why their sources are not considered the best in this ongoing discussion. Here are the Wiki guidelines. WP:SOURCES
Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy.[4] Reliable sources are necessary both to substantiate material within articles and to give credit to authors and publishers in order to avoid plagiarism and copyright violations. Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in an article and should be appropriate to the claims made: exceptional claims require exceptional sources.
All articles must adhere to Wikipedia's neutrality policy, fairly representing all majority and significant-minority viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in rough proportion to the prominence of each view. Tiny-minority views and fringe theories need not be included, except in articles devoted to them.
In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers. As a rule of thumb, the greater the degree of scrutiny involved in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the evidence and arguments of a particular work, the more reliable it is.
Academic and peer-reviewed publications are highly valued and usually the most reliable sources in areas where they are available, such as history, medicine and science. Material from reliable non-academic sources may also be used in these areas, particularly if they are respected mainstream publications. The appropriateness of any source always depends on the context. Where there is disagreement between sources, their views should be clearly attributed in the text. -- scuro ( talk) 12:28, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
The citation has not been removed. Only the conclusions that were drawn from the citation. This is a debate format, it's not a scientific review for heavens sake. For controversy to exist you must have active debate between majority and minority opinion. You can't draw the conclusion of active debate in the scientific field from this link.-- scuro ( talk) 04:01, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) There is plenty of evidence that there is notable controversy. If any editor thinks not, then I'd suggest that the editor read WP:AfD and follow the process, it *will* make a decision; my guess is that it would be a "lively discussion" and that consensus would be to Keep. (And if the closing admin decides to delete the article, I'm sure there would be a Deletion Review, and if that fails, that this would go to further process.). So, please, unless you've got the willingness to back it up with process, stop claiming that controversy isn't notable. However, there does remain the question of balance. It is a reasonable position that it does not belong in the introduction; however, putting it there means that we don't need to go over the rest of the article with a fine-tooth comb, all at once.
The fact is that the introduction is a mess, see below for part of the problem, about the references. The main problem is that a read who doesn't know what ADHD is likely to be quite confused by the intro. I didn't make this up, this comment has been made before by at least one other. It's obvious. One of the editors, here, quoted a definition of ADHD that was less controversial than what we had, was clear and to the point, far better than what we have there now. Our present intro is longer than most, more complicated than most. With controversial subjects, intros are often very brief because it is easier to find consensus on a brief statement than on more complex ones. -- Abd ( talk) 16:43, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
(edit conflict with above) I've become convinced that the controversy over ADHD warrants some mention in the introduction. It should be fleshed out deeper in the article. Procedurally, it might have been better to lay out the foundation for this in the article, deeper in, in detail, *then* put this in the intro. But someone else put the reference in, with much stronger language about controversy. So I reworked it. After all this is a project involving the cooperation of editors. I came up with this.
The first sentence is an introduction to the second. The "some view" is a summary of the "For" argument in the debate in the source, and there are several noted authors mentioned there, justifying "some." Words that in other contexts would be "weasel words" are, in an introduction, if substantiated -- and particularly if the detail exists deeper in the article, simply a summary, what an introduction is supposed to be.
User:Scuro reverted me, I reverted it back, for the reasons detailed above. (I had incorrectly thought he had totally removed the second part, because of how his edit summary read, but, in fact, he had appended it to the previous paragraph, where it did not belong, it's not clearly connected enough.) Instead of cutting out this text, I'd suggest that Scuro, if he still doesn't like it, discuss improvement.
Note that this is a very small introduction of controversy into this article, and it refers to a reliable source that gives some good summary of the controversy. It was a source like this that I'd been asking for. There is now some *flesh* to "some". Further, "some view" here was that "some view the diagnosis as controversial." That is quite different from "some view the diagnosis as a fraud, a perversion of the medical profession, etc." There is, without any doubt, substantial controversy over various aspects of ADHD. The evidence is fairly strong that there is some genetic basis, though I have not read the critics' responses to that. (It's amazing how little meat there is in some criticism, it seems the most emotional aspects, the "wining and dining" of researchers and medical bureaucrats by the greedy drug industry, the armies of toddlers getting drenched with powerful drugs, gets the bulk of the argument.) But what this means is far from clear. The field is in flux, some claim that there are physical markers, others don't see that and state that there are no physical signs. That's controversy. That is, there is controversy that is *not* all "Psychiatrists are Satan incarnate." There is sober criticism and also recognition by those who claim physical causes that it is not proven yet. -- Abd ( talk) 04:05, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Well it's nice that you made up your mind Abd...and I may grant you the point that certain things that fall under the wide umbrella of the topic of ADHD may be controversial but I have seen the controversial flag waved so many times with regards to ADHD that I have become conditioned to be skeptical. If the diagnosis is so obviously controversial where is the beef? How many times do I have to ask for a reliable source before someone answers me? Wikipedia policy states that you should answer other editors questions. If you don't have an answer for a question you should respond, "I don't know" or "I can't find it". To ignore the question is disingenuous. Perhaps the diagnosis isn't controversial nor is the disorder itself. What then is controversial? Spell it out for us with reliable references that use the word controversy or controversial. Do you think that is too much of a demand? I can find sources that describe ECT as controversial. -- scuro ( talk) 04:40, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
If anyone doubts the existence of a controversy I have found news articles to back that up:
A quote from an interviewee: "There is controversy about ADHD, I believe, partly because we are using a medication to treat the disorder, and people find that to be of concern."
Title: "Controversy continues over treatment of ADHD"
From the introduction: "Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, or ADHD, is one of the most controversial topics in kid's health today."
Federal Opposition health spokesperson: "Given the controversy surrounding ADHD..." Barrylb ( talk) 05:13, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Here are two references from the scientific community:
From the abstract: "ADHD and its treatment have remained controversial"
From the introduction: "We believe that the current controversy about diagnosis and management of these children's symptoms arises from the divergent perspectives of developmentally and non-developmentally minded professionals"
Barrylb ( talk) 10:01, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
The first reference has some beef. It's a start. Thank you. More later.-- scuro ( talk) 13:01, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
To Barrylb. Good luck arguing with these chaps. But if you adduced Einstein, Freud and Newton, with supporting links, to say that there was controversy about 'ADHD', you'd be told that somehow or other it didn't count. They say so, you see. Or at least one of them does. So that's settled. And you'd be reverted, so that you could either have an edit war , and be warned off for being bad, (somehow those who repeatedly revert to the original version never run into trouble for doing this, only those who wish to make changes. I'm unable to see quite why) or you have to give up. The same noble rigour, alas, is not applied to the article itself, packed as it is with unsupported or contentious assertions presented as facts, with pseudoscientific jargon, and by the use of the passive voice which is disapproved of in Wikipedia under the 'weasel words' rules. I've appealed for outside arbitration on this and I urge you to join me. I've also attempted to mark various contentious points with 'citation needed' marks, but my inadequate computer skills have produced varying results. Peter Hitchens, logged in as Clockback ( talk) 14:16, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
There appears to be quite a lot of information in a 2006 book Critical New Perspectives on ADHD [8]. I haven't fully looked through it yet, but on page 178 the chapter's author says: "it should be pointed out that in Sweden a heated debate concerning the status of the diagnosis ADHD/DAMP has been going on for many years. The debate has been polarised, with some arguing that this syndrome cannot be considered an identifiable and verifiable condition at all, while others argue that this is one of the most significant health problems of our time." I equate that with controversy. Barrylb ( talk) 15:56, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
In another 2007 book The Other Side of ADHD: Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder Exposed and Explained [9] the author says (on page 5) "there is widespread disagreement about whether it exists at all, and whether it is, in fact, a valid diagnostic category. Although its advocates are prone to describing it in certain terms, there has rarely been so much uncertainty and controversy about a diagnosis...". Barrylb ( talk) 16:56, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
If, and by your own admisssion, "ADHD seems too attract social critics like no other topic does", it seems to me that that warrants a good discussion of the controversy in the article. I have many doctors in my family, and they all think very poorly about the whole ADHD business. It just doesn't seem reasonable to me to contend that the controversy is so scant. I think Clockback is right here. Scuro needs to stop being so arrogant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.183.153.23 ( talk) 06:19, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Another reference:
From Introduction: "Attention Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) is a controversial syndrome. Debate has raged in Australia and other countries over the condition itself, its prevalence and, in particular, over the use of medication to treat ADHD." Barrylb ( talk) 13:14, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Are not citations and citation requests to be avoided in the intro? They should be in the main body of the article where the points are touched upon. -- scuro ( talk) 16:53, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
If claims in the introduction repeat sourced claims in the article, then references are not required in the intro. However, often editors will try to summarize what is in the article, and summarization can introduce POV bias. If the summarization is new, i.e, not explicitly made deeper in the article it must be sourced unless it is consensus that the summary is fair. Scuro here is focusing on the presence or absence of citations, when the fundamental point is that the text must be sourced. If Scuro or any editor feels that a citation tag in the intro isn't necessary because the material is elsewhere in the article, he is certainly welcome to move the tag, or to delete it if the deeper material is properly referenced. What Scuro is missing, apparently, is that placing a cn tag is a cooperative way to begin to resolve issues with the article, it avoids edit warring.
I would really encourage Scuro to read the piece of guideline that he quoted carefully. "editorial consensus." If he starts to actively seek that consensus, instead of simply insisting on his POV, we will make progress. This is not to deny that he has shown some willingness to compromise, he has. But other actions are contentious and not likely to resolve *our* controversy. -- Abd ( talk) 16:56, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
I will no longer respond to Abds' posts until he stops his personal judgments of other editors. Talk is to focus on content. He makes assumptions, places blame, reads minds.... it is all negative, against wiki policy and I will no longer respond until I see a change in his behaviour. -- scuro ( talk) 18:08, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
From the Oxford dictionary
"A prolonged argument or dispute. esp. when conducted publicly and over a matter of opinion."
Within wikipedia the term would also have to mean that both sides of argument would have to be notable enough to qualify for majority and minority opinion. For instance Holocaust deniners wouldn't be considered minority or majority opinion in a "final solution" article. You would have to be able to identify the minority opinion. Who or what group is actually in debate and considered noteworthy enough.
In summary for the addition of the word controversy into an article you would want:
Without qualifiers vertually any topic can be shown to be controversial.
"A prolonged argument or dispute. esp. when conducted publicly and over a matter of opinion."
There is a lot of that over ADHD. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
124.183.153.23 (
talk) 06:26, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Doesn't the assertion above (about what controversy is )just show where the problem lies? Why should this user be able to rule on what 'controversy' is, above and beyond the dictionary definition? Whence comes his authority to do so? (If he wants a controversy about controversy, let's open a Wikipedia article on 'Controversy' and perhaps he can engage himself in a dispute about whether there is any controversy about controversy. Hours of harmless fun might ensue). Having reproduced the dictionary definition, he must have observed that this clearly and unambiguously shows that there is a controversy over 'ADHD'. So he has come up with a definition of his own that might conceivably be used to claim that there is not. He may have his opinions on the matter, but these do not entitle him to remove a truthful and accurate statement from the entry, again and again, demanding a rigour in critics and sceptics of 'ADHD' which is wholly inconsistent with the lack of rigour in the article he so manfully defends against those sceptics. He should just admit that there is a controversy, and stop reverting edits which make this clear. His energies would be far better devoted to cleaning up the woeful article about 'ADHD', still crammed with pseudoscientific assertions and weasel words. A question to an expert. Several different users have separately made changes to this article ( all of the same kind and with the same intent, namely to ensure that it declares prominently that the diagnosis of 'ADHD' is controversial) and all have separately been reverted. If those users combined, agreed on a text and references for controversy, and posted it, and it was then reverted, could they each *separately* re-revert it without breaching the rules? And would anyone else be within the rules to re-re-revert it more than the permissible number of times, in this case? Just asking. Peter Hitchens, logged in as Clockback ( talk) 10:35, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
BY the way (let's not get it mixed up with the main argument) isn't the introduction of a comparison with 'Holocaust Deniers' wholly outrageous and completely disgraceful? First: There is enormous objective evidence of the Holocaust, its planning and its operation, from documents, corroborated witnesses , survivors, trials of perpetrators, surviving installations. Those who deny that it took place are delusional and politically motivated, as well as being morally deficient. Second, there is no such objective evidence of the existence of 'ADHD', which remains a matter of opinion without any scientific test to determine its presence in any human body. thus permitting reasonable people to question its existence. Third, the use of the comparison itself is not merely wholly unjustified by the context, but stinks of the lowest form of ad hominem attack. If 'official warnings' are being handed out, perhaps the author of this illegitimate and baseless remark might be served with one. I argue hard, and don't at all mind when people argue hard back, but this is beyond the limits. PH signed in as Clockback ( talk) 10:46, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
PH signed in as Clockback ( talk) 14:14, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
CB, please stick to the topic at hand. The issue is what exactly is the controversy? Can you define it, and can a consensus of editors agree with your definition? You wouldn't require my input for that consensus to stick. I have given a defintion. You could remove the Dr. Phil reference and it would still hold true: "While no scientific body or international health institution believes that ADHD is a controversial disorder, many social critics and some religious groups, Scientologists in particular, believe that ADHD is controversial." Please don't make this an issue about personalities and how hard this is for you.-- scuro ( talk) 16:53, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Want to be really disruptive? Tell others to stop expressing what they feel. - do that or judge them and their thought processes.-- scuro ( talk) 20:08, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Can't hang about to chat folks but I've made an edit that I think will avoid all this argument. See article history and my edit. Miamomimi ( talk) 15:08, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Well, it doesn't sound reasonable to me. 'ADHD' is being rpeatedly and mistakenly compared with established medical or scientific theories. It isn't one. It is (and will one of you please respond to this point just once?) an unproven theory without any objective evidence for its existence, and therefore not subject to disproof. It simply does not deserve to be treated as if it is an established fact under attack by a dubious minority of crackpots. It is fashionable among doctors, but then so (for example) was a frenzy for pre-frontal leucotomy in the middle of the 20th century. That was a 'generally accepted opinion' of its time, and it was flat wrong. (So was the belief, 24 years ago, that SIDS was best prevented by lying baies on their fronts, now reversed by 180 degrees) I have no doubt that its contemporary critics were dismissed as 'fringe' and 'cranks' by the fashionable majority of the time. What other method could they use, given that their favoured treatment had no objective justification or decent science behind it? . The point about this is that the level of acceptance accorded to an unproven theory carries no weight in evaluating its rightness. This is, as contributors repeatedly stress, an encyclopaedia. Its duty is not to reflect passing fashion but to seek the truth. The truth is very often reached through controversy. The controversy about 'ADHD' has barely begun, and it is not for Wikipedia to make any presumptions about how it will end. Those who suppress or seek to minimise the existence of that controversy do a disservice to truth. Its fashionableness establishes nothing objective. The British popular (and unpopular) press is full of articles casting doubt on its existence (by no means all of them written by me) , if that counts, and I have cited the remarks of Terence Kealey and other scientists casting doubt on the diagnosis, including Baroness Greenfield's question in the House of Lords and the recent Buffalo University study showing that the most popular 'treatment' for 'ADHD' is of dubious effect. The Second World War analogy is absurd. That war is over, and now know the true significance of events that was unclear at the time, and often wrongly evaluated. What some users seek to do (in tune with their clinging to this subjective concept of 'ADHD', as it happens) is to invent a subjective definition of 'controversy' which just happens to rule out the kind of controversy that there actually is. It's so blatantly self-serving I'm amazed they have the nerve. Either there's an argument or there isn't. there is. The article should say so clearly and I think I can state with confidence that, sooner or later, it will. The reason certain persons are so anxious to suppress this incontestable truth is that they themselves suspect in their hearts that 'ADHD' is false, and fear greatly the rational scientific examination which must eventually overtake it. Peter Hitchens, signed in as Clockback ( talk) 17:25, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
It does already state the best summary that has been found, so far, in reliable source, and it points the reader to the details. That Mr. Hitchens continues to write as if nothing has been done, as if his complaints have been ignored, says little about the actual situation. It's unfortunate. Mr. Hitchens then proceeds to make some uncivil comments about the alleged motives of disagreeing editors. That, too, is unfortunate.
The quotation, with the three dots in the middle clearly indicating an excision( which the reader can check a few lines above) , removes nothing of significance and does not distort the meaning. Once again, my point is not answered. Why is there no objective evidence for the existence of ADHD'? Why, in the absence of such evidence, is it illegitimate to point out in the opening of the entry, the truth, that it thwerefore axiomatically remains a contentious, unproven theory? Doesn't Wikipedia etiquette oblige the 'ADHD' police to respond to these questions? PH signed in as
Clockback (
talk) 09:57, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
My 'behaviour' is to insist that this is an encyclopaedia of fact, rather than of opinion and to continue to defend this position on this page in the hope of obtaining a sensible compromise.. I am happy to defend this behaviour to any disinterested person. I long for 'Scuro' take the 'further action' which he has repeatedly threatened since I began this discussion, and I have frequently begged him to take it, on this page. Yet he never has. I do wish he would get on with it. PH, logged in as Clockback ( talk) 13:21, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Barrylb removed some links with the summary, "cleaning out some external link rubbish." I only looked at one of these links, and it didn't seem to be, literally, "rubbish," but it might have been redundant or may have had some objectionable characteristic not obvious to me in my momentary examination. I'm placing here all links removed, and any editor may object to the removal individually, plus Barrylb or another editor may explain why it was removed. We may also want to categorize external links; that can be useful especially if a website expresses some POV, but also for other reasons.
-- Abd ( talk) 19:04, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Abd, why do you repeatedly remove the term "developmental disorder" out of the intro? It is a developmental disorder and the term should be in the first sentence or two for the reader. Are we advocating that we should remove pertinent information? -- scuro ( talk) 04:49, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
You will find ADHD in this list developmental disorder -- scuro ( talk) 05:20, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
User:Scuro, I mention in an insertion above, put back the old developmental disorder language in the intro, giving the summary, "(an editor has eliminated the term developmental disorder - it is being restored...see the NINDS citation, more citations can be gathered in needed.)" diff I changed it back, explaining in Talk why. Without engaging in discussion, Scuro reverted it, with the summary, "(Nothwithstanding the condition/disorder mean two different things, the edit was made to include the term "developmental disorder"..ADHD is a DD... references follow the phrase.)" diff
Yes, ADHD is commonly described as a Developmental disorder, i.e., "at some stage in a child's development." However, the intro also acknowledges that not all ADHD is due to inheritance, and not all onset is in childhood. Or should we take out "typically presents in childhood"?
The introduction should have the most general and uncontroversial *definition* of the term. There is probably already too much in there, but one thing at a time!
I replaced the new language with the simple "condition," and continued to clean up the intro. I took out the reference to British terminology, it's enough to have the British term there, and whether or not Hyperkinetic Disorder or ADHD is more common in Britain is surely not worthy of mention in the introduction, it's a tiny detail.
The NINDS citation, which is the one Scuro is apparently referring to, does not choose to mention developmental disorder in its introductory paragraph. And the NINDS article is focusing on children, so, of course, it is going to mention "developmental disorder" in the body.
My goal with the introduction at this point is to keep it very simple until the rest of the article is cleaned up, as well as the article Attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder: controversies. I have no conclusion in mind as to how much of the controversy should be explicitly described in this article, how much it should be reflected in the language of the introduction. For now, I'm assuming that this article need not bow to the controversy with every sentence and paragraph, but, of course, with supplied reliable source to the contrary .... that might change. -- Abd ( talk) 05:00, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
"Accuracy"? This is not a question of accuracy, it is question of the best language for the introduction. There is no dispute -- by me -- over ADHD being a developmental disorder. It is. Scuro managed to find a source where DD is mentioned in the opening line. As against the first three citations actually in the article, two of which don't mention it *at all*, and one of which only mentions it in the last paragraph. Plus, uh, is that supposed to be a "reliable source"? -- Abd ( talk) 05:33, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Plus, uh, is that supposed to be a "reliable source"? - uh...you are joking?-- scuro ( talk) 05:53, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
"There are diverse views regarding the existence of ADHD as a single syndrome" this sentence really bites since no one in the field really considers that the disorder is a single syndrome. There appears to be at least two types of ADHD that can be caused by different things. The term used most often to describe ADHD is that it is a heterogeneous disorder.-- scuro ( talk) 03:33, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I cleaned up the Treatment section a bit, making text conform more closely to source. Source was secondary, the BBC, reporting the results of an apparently as-yet unpublished study. Even though the BBC calls the study "significant," or "influential," it can hardly be yet influential if it hasn't been peer-reviewed and publish. This might simply be bad journalism, it happens, I've seen press reports of a study prior to publication and the actual study turned out to be quite different. So I tightened this up and removed POV language from it, moving toward exact quotation as reported in the article, and I attributed it to the BBC.
However, this section was and still is badly imbalanced. Ironically, given present complaints about this article, it is imbalanced toward criticism. Treatment by drugs is only presented as something being now under doubt and suspicion. Maybe it will become so, but the status quo is that millions are being prescribed drugs by physicians who believe them effective, rightly or wrongly. There is no doubt in my mind that the negative study results belong there (better, when we have the actual article, that they conform to the actual study, not to a newspaper account), but we should also have reports of the effectiveness of drug treatment. What's the evidence for that? Is there any? (I think there is, indeed, there has to be *something* shown about effectiveness for drugs to get approval, usually. It might be misleading, it might be wrong, but it must exist. Further, "long-term effectiveness" is not the only issue. Something that is effective short-term may still be quite valuable. I'd need to see the actual study reported, *in detail* before having an opinion, the BBC article is way too sketchy. Anyone got a reference to the article? Has it been published yet? Other reports on it?
How is ADHD treated with drugs? Dosage? (For example, dosages of stimulant medication for ADHD are typically quite small; in fact, strong response to a very small dose of stimulants is sometimes used as part of the diagnosis of ADHD.) What drigs? (Someone had modified the quotation to include Adderall, which was not in the orignal article. Somebody wasn't careful about source, I suspect that someone came along and just read this article and said, hey, Adderall is used too, and tossed it in....
This article once had Good Article status, it's lost it. Perhaps because so many editors were focusing on maintaining their own POV? Wikipedia needs editors who understand NPOV and who greatly value it. We will each have our own POV and that can help us to recognize BS from the other side. Editors who are truly neutral typically don't have the motivation to stick with an article and protect it from POV and other poor edits. So, POV editors, and we have a few, you are needed here. Just, please, try to understand and respect the crucial importance to the encyclopedia project of Neutral Point of View in articles. -- Abd ( talk) 18:17, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I reverted the following edit from the introduction.
I looked at the source and saw nothing like what was in the intro. It may be on some subpage. References should be directly to the page needed. If a printed source, page numbers should be included.
The text I removed is disputatious and is clearly an opinion presenting a POV (reliable sources may report POVs, they do not therefore become fact other than that the quoted person holds the POV). Further, its placement in the introduction, immediately after the introductory definition, is radically out of balance. The introduction should claim nothing that is not claimed, in detail and with references, in the body of the article, and, where it summarizes, as it usually should, the summary should not imbalance the presentation. We already have in the introduction a general reference to the controversy. We cannot justify more than that at this time, and, in fact, even that could possibly be too much -- certainly Scuro has expressed displeasure with it, and an anonymous IP editor tried to take it out. Until something better comes along, it's the best we can do.
(The present introduction is not in good shape this way, but it doesn't get better by having inappropriate, improperly sourced material added to it.)
What with Scuro coming in from one side and Clockback from the other, it may become difficult to maintain the article as neutral; however, I assume that other editors will step in, they are needed. -- Abd ( talk) 18:35, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Wonderful. Just a little test, and the self-appointed guardians of this page ( who of course have no point of view) failed it exactly as I thought they would. Within three minutes -three minutes - of this edit being saved it was needlessly revised, within two hours it was unjustifiably reverted. No surprise there. The vigour and rigour with which these people reject anything casting doubt on this pseudo-scientific, evidence-free fantasy is, as I have pointed out before, to be compared with the relaxed view they take of unjustified assertions and passive voice in the entry as it stands. And yet my addition contains an incontrovertible statement of fact which I have made on this page repeatedly without challenge (there is no objective diagnosis - if this is true, how can you in all conscience revert it? If it is not true, where is your evidence of its untruth?) with a qualification made repeatedly by Scuro himself(this is the case with all disorders)which is also presumably true(I take Scuro's word for it) so likewise cannot be reverted without the production of evidence to the contrary.All of this was backed up by a quotation(culled as it happens from the 'Controversy on ADHD' entry) from a pro-ADHD doctor admitting that they don't actually know what 'ADHD' is. So why was this reverted? It's apparently not a point of view to say that ADHD exists, without evidence, ( statement which is entirely a matter of opinion) but it mysteriously *is* a point of view to say that there's no evidence for its existence ( a statement which is incontrovertibly true whatever your opinion).We already know that we are not allowed to say there is a controversy about 'ADHD' even though there's a Wikipedia article about that controversy and a discussion about that controversy has now lasted more than a week on this page without any sign of coming to an end yet. There is no equivalence between my persistent attempts to add a fact or two to the entry and the page's self-appointed guardians' persistent efforts to prevent me from doing so. However, I share Abd's wish that others will step in. As many as possible please. It is comical, the way the guardians of this page cannot see the weakness in their position, and I find it increasingly funny to watch them at it. PH, logged in as Clockback ( talk) 21:58, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
This section is a mess. The section title is a hodgepodge. It's full of unsourced statements, or, alternatively, the citation tags are incorrect, the later source in the article covers the earlier claims, which it might. It's not quick and easy to find out. The last source is the U.S. Census. Uh, what publication, what page? Do we read the thousands of pages to find out? Anyone care to work on it? -- Abd ( talk) 03:10, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:MEDMOS#Diseases.2Fdisorders.2Fsyndromes -- scuro ( talk) 05:42, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
This is, indeed, a useful resource. The present article isn't organized as suggested, it seems to me. However, a reorganization in the presence of an edit war isn't the most useful task to be taken first. Looking at this, the first thing I was struck with was "But what if an editor doesn't agree that this is a disease?" However, the guideline actually covers that. ADHD, no matter how we slice it, is a "syndrome," a pattern of symptoms. Then comes "classification," and the old practice, the "early nosological efforts grouped diseases by their symptoms, whereas modern systems (e.g. SNOMED) focus on grouping diseases by the anatomy and etiology involved." However, with some disorders or conditions, the etiology is unknown. Generally, the anatomy is known: with ADHD, the "anatomy" is the nervous system, the manager and mechanism of behavior, and while there may be some endocrine involvement, that would only be relevant insofar as it affects the function of the nervous system. Hence ADHD is "neurological." This is offensive to the critics, I'd suggest, because they think of neurology as only relating to observable anatomic differences, whereas, in fact, the brain is extraordinarily complex, and microstructure, only recently beginning to be appreciated, is involved. Only recently, for example, has it become possible to image how neurons are interconnected, more than a synapse or a few at a time. Behavior is encoded, apparently, in the *pattern* of interconnections, and the complexity of this is staggering, we may be a long way from being able to observe the interconnection patterns and related this to a behavioral syndrome. Or not. Sometimes discoveries come in a surprising way.
I've been seeing this in a number of controversial articles lately. The battle is over what definitions of words are controlling. While that is an issue of political significance, and is not necessarily easy to resolve, it is *impossible* to resolve if the parties don't even recognize the problem: each group is using a different definition of the terms of the controversy. Different definitions, with this article and its disputes, are used for "disorder," "neurology," "objective," and, on an even deeper level, "encyclopedia" and "truth." It is not uncommon that readers with a strong Point of View get fired up enough to start editing because they want an article to reflect the "truth." This can be useful, in fact; however, as has been pointed out many times, it is not the function of an encyclopedia to present the "truth." This comes, indeed, as a great shock to some -- but who gets to decide what the function is? Wikipedia is owned by the WikiMedia Foundation (WMF) and, ultimately, *it* decides. Originally it was Jimbo Wales. The *operational* definition of who gets to decide has been mostly transferred to the user community, and, when push comes to shove, to the Arbitration Committee. The Arbitration Committee is something to watch, I spend a good portion of my time on this site doing exactly that. Suffice it to say that repeatedly, woven through the policies (which are strong, relatively fixed) and guidelines (which are weaker) and essays (which are often just the opinion of one or a few editors), is the claim that "truth" isn't an argument for putting text into an article, rather, "verifiability" is. The encyclopedia isn't about truth, it is about knowledge. And, yes, "knowledge" can be mistaken, but the place to correct it isn't here, generally, but in the world of science and scholarship and, sometimes, politics.
Now, is this violated? Often. Articles are created by writers who frequently just write what their opinion -- or knowledge -- indicates, and these articles will frequently be very poorly sourced, even when they are otherwise accurate and well-written; in fact, if the article is written by an expert, lack of sources can be extreme. Without sources, there is little verifiability. Eventually, if people care about the article, it will start to attract editors who source it. Or correct it, with or without sources. When controversy appears, battles between editors can rage for a time. Ultimately, though, articles will tend to settle on what is widely considered "NPOV," or Neutral Point of View, and any other condition is a violation of policy, and editors who strongly insist on their own POV find themselves excluded from the process. But it is also understood that NPOV articles do not spring, lotus-born, from the virtual pen of fully-enlightened editors. That is, usually not! Nobody is punished merely for putting their point of view into an article; rather sanctions (Wikipedia, theoretically, never punishes, and administrators who do attempt to punish actually can lose their privileges) are applied for failure to respect community process, never merely for holding or expressing some point of view -- unless it's thoroughly offensive (such as making racist comments in an inflammatory way). -- Abd ( talk) 23:46, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
It's the intro that needs work. The intro needs to reflect all the major sections, as suggested in the MoS. Some are missing!! When I am finally not expending energy debating wiki policy, or asking editors to focus on content, my attention will turn to this task.-- scuro ( talk) 00:15, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Once again legitimate minor changes to the article are reverted with fantastic zeal, whereas the article's vast, phantasmal claims are allowed to stand unchallenged. What references did the above passages need? The 'historical' summary of 'ADHD' is available in the entry, and clearly shows that the alleged complaint has at different times been associated with identifiable brain damage, and also not associated with it. This is clearly contradictory to anyone not befogged with partiality. As for methylphenidate and the amphetamines aiding concentration in anyone who takes them, the pro'ADHD' lobby can produce reams of stuff showing that these drugs aid concentration in alleged 'ADHD' patients. Until it can demonstrate a physical difference between 'ADHD' patients and normal human beings, its own research establishes this axiomatically. Mountains of it. Since I cannot wean 'Scuro' off his tedious 'Where's the beef?' question, which he thinks so potent, I shall redirect it at him. Maybe, in that case, he will finally grasp what it is I am about. "Where is your beef, Mr Scuro? Where is your objective proof of the existence of ADHD?" He never answers this question, and cannot. And in his failure to answer it lies his inability to understand my very simple and many times repeated point, which Scuro and his allies seek to lose in a squabble about procedure which has nothing to do with it (if it had, they would long ago have pinned me to the wall by an appeal to arbitration, which they dare not make). This article concerns a speculative and contentious diagnosis, not an established fact. The use of technical words such as 'syndrome' and 'disorder' may well tell experts that 'ADHD' is a construct without objective evidence for its existence. But lay readers, who are, regrettably, impressed by long words, and who are medically ill-informed, cannot glean this information from the article. That is why it is necessary for it to be stated in clear English that the diagnosis is contentious. If a parent wants to drug his or her son with potent psychotropics on the say-so of a social worker and a questionnaire, and without physical evidence of any illness, then I suppose he or she has the right to do so, sort of. But what if he or she doesn't realise that this is what is actually going on, as I suspect is the case with many such parents? By the way, is this really the place for user testimonials for methylphenidate? I am glad of these clear declarations of interest, but surely such stuff is best sent straight to the manufacturers, who can use it in their publicity? By the way , the above passage: "However, with some disorders or conditions, the etiology is unknown. Generally, the anatomy is known: with ADHD, the "anatomy" is the nervous system, the manager and mechanism of behavior, and while there may be some endocrine involvement, that would only be relevant insofar as it affects the function of the nervous system. Hence ADHD is "neurological." seems to me to be gibberish. What does the 'hence' refer to? PH signed in as Clockback ( talk) 09:52, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Your questions have all been answered long ago, you choose to ignore this. But you ask again...over and over...It's getting silly really. The "beef" is suitable citations which have been supplied by all the other editors and which you have not offered any for, except from that long retired Neurologist and Scientology medical expert Fred Baughman. The cited opinion of the scientific community trumps your uncited opinion on Wikipedia. But you know this also. It's really all about WP:SOAPBOXing isn't it?-- scuro ( talk) 12:46, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
The above user (Scuro) tells me that my questions have been 'answered over and over again'. I am not aware of any answer to my request for an objective proof of the existence of 'ADHD', or for details of an objective test for its presence or absence in the human body. Can he please direct me to them? There is also a confusion above about my aim and purpose. I have offered not only Baughman, but also Kealey and Greenfield, as evidences of *controversy*, the only fact I wish to establish on the entry. My sub-argument about the existence of 'ADHD' is here only because I am constantly told that there cannot be controversy about it its existence because this is a settled matter. But it demonstrably isn't, or Scuro et al would be able to provide objective proofs of existence rather than the mountain-ranges of baseless and contradictory assertions which they constantly provide instead. I have advanced nobody and nothing at all in pursuit of my statement that there is no proof for the objective existence of 'ADHD'. I don't want to insert this statement in the article, though I believe it to be true. I have never sought to do so. I merely seek to stop the supporters of this concept acting and writing as if this unproven theory were a settled fact, and to accept the axiomatic conclusion that the diagnosis is contentious ( and the language changes in the rest of the article which logically follow from that). That is what I sought at the beginning. It is what I still seek. Thus the argument about the lack of proof for 'ADHD', though not intended for the article, goes right to the heart of the question. As I keep explaining, I cannot prove a negative. Nobody can. It is up to the supporters of the phantasm to prove its objective existence. I do not need to prove its non-existence, as I (and the rest of the human race) await any evidence of its existence. When will Scuro etc grasp this? I ask my questions 'over and over' precisely because the supporters of the ADHD fantasy don't answer them. Gosh, I am so patient and polite compared with my opponents. By the way, yes, Dr Baughman is retired, and may have co-operated with Scientologists. So what? Is this legitimate argument or ad hominem tripe? Easy. It is the latter. The one is not his fault ( we all get old and retire if we live long enough, and are often none the worse for it) and the second doesn't alter the fact that he has forgotten more about neurology than Scuro and his supporters ever knew. It's been nteresting to watch a non-neurologist repeatedly over-ruling a college-qualified professional neurologist on what 'neurology' means. I have only not reverted the request for a citation on the 'neuro' part of 'neurobehavioural' out of respect for the rules. None of the references provides any evidence for a neurological component in 'ADHD'. PH, logged in as Clockback ( talk) 14:47, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
That would be a leading question CB....so I will wait until you can frame a proper question. In reading your opinion above it appears that you are under the false assumption that the research evidence that scientists used to make the case that ADHD exists, is not repeatable. I assure you that it is.-- scuro ( talk) 05:04, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Would Scuro please supply any research evidence that 'ADHD' has an objective existence. I am aware of none. A 'leading question' is one employed by a lawyer, trying to guide one of his own witnesses into saying what he wants him to say. I am in no position to ask Scuro such a question. I repeat, why not just admit that there is no objective evidence for the existence of 'ADHD'? It would make things so much easier. PH, logged in as Clockback ( talk) 10:02, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't believe your definition is correct and the questions no longer are seeking information for the purpose of communication and understanding. This attempt at conciliation is looking to be more and more like a waste of time. -- scuro ( talk) 12:40, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
It doesn't really matter whether he believes me or not. That is what 'leading question ' means, and such questions are disallowed in English courts ( and I suspect US, Canadian, Australian and NZ courts as well). What else could it mean? Why else would it be wrong? He asked for single, clear questions. I provided one. 'Scuro' dodged it, because to answer it would be to admit that I have been right all along, and there is no scientific proof for the existence of 'ADHD'. If time is being wasted, it isn't being wasted by me. I have stuck rigorously and patiently to the same position from the start (In the absence of objective proof for the existence of 'ADHD' its existence is axiomatically a controversial and contentious subject), and await only a recognition of the facts I state, or a refutation of them .Once that is achieved, we can proceed to the next stage. So long as it is not achieved, there is no basis for conciliation. Either there is objective proof for the existence of 'ADHD' or there is not. It is no good trying to redefine 'proof' so as to include things that are not 'proof' ( a standard tactic of 'Scuro' when in difficulties is to re-engineer the English language, so that controversy doesn't mean 'controversy' , for instance, and 'neurological' doesn't mean 'neurological' but spychological or behavioural ). Proof is proof. Scuro cannot redfeine that. If there is proof, it can be produced. If there isn't, it can't. As , despite countless requests by me for it to be produced, nobody has produced it, I think the disinterested reader would be justified in copnclusing that there isn't any. PH, logged in as Clockback ( talk) 11:46, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
You're wrong about leading questions (they can improperly be used to attempt to lead another witness) and your wrong about clear questions. You are also going to great lengths to twist things into a pretzel like form. I'll be around when a serious attempt at communication wafts in the wind again.-- scuro ( talk) 16:11, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
The references used to support this claim are a) a standard unsupported assertion of the existence of ADHD, replete with contradictory 'historical' references many of them pertaining to instances of known brain damage, and second supposed research into brain patterns of ADHD patients in which it is not stated whether those scanned had been taking medication before the scan ( a rather more likely reason than 'ADHD' for their brains to be different from normal) . This is not evidence of any neurological component in 'ADHD'.As DR Castellanos has said in a reference inserted by me and deleted by others, there is no such evidence. PH logged in as Clockback ( talk) 08:17, 22 January 2008 (UTC) So why have my request for citations to establish a neurological component for 'ADHD' been reverted? PH, logged in as Clockback ( talk) 13:06, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I do wish Scuro would stop imagining that 'Where's the beef?' is a witty, original or penetrating question. It's a relic of a forgotten US presidential campaign,. It is also especially inappropriate for him to keep asking it. I don't, I'm afraid, think that he could see any beef in a whole bull charging straight at him. It would probably be a fringe bull, and so wouldn't count. Meanwhile, there is no 'beef', or indeed any other solid substance save pseudoscientific spam, in the theory of 'ADHD', a phantasmal invention entirely lacking in scientific proof for its existence. All I point out with these edits is that this is so. The quantity of opinion-based discussion papers, consisting entirely of assertion and subjectivity, doesn't alter the fact that objective proof is absent. The PET scan is not even claimed by supporters of the theory to be evidence of the neurological existence of ADHD.Their claims are rather more modest, see the 'controversy' article), or to be a method of diagnosing it. It continues to be 'diagnosed' with the subjective, vague criteria listed in DSM-IV and displayed in the entry, as they ought to be. I am not required, by the rules of scientific discussion, to provide evidence of a negative. The supporters of this theory are obliged to provide evidence of their positive, but they never do, just masses and masses of repetitive assertion plus references to German folk-tales. If they cannot support their contentions, then they should just resile, and stop telling me off for being naughty. I love Scuro's Humpty Dumpty approach to language. The word 'controversy' (in Scuro's dictionary) must conform to an incredibly tight definition which just so happens to exclude any of the many critics of 'ADHD' from being counted. The word 'neurology' meanwhile must be reduced to a de-medicalised vagueness so that 'ADHD' can be classified as a neurological disorder when there is no evidence that it has any neurological charcter. This is really getting funnier and funnier and it is a pity that Scuro and his ally/allies cannot see it. But please, please, please, won't these people take their long-threatened action against me? They don't, I believe, because they fear that the involvement of disinterested parties will result in the prominent inclusion of the terrifying word 'controversy' in the main article, where it obviously ought to be. I have no purpose in this discussion beyond ensuring that the truth is told to the lay reader. PH, signed in as Clockback ( talk) 18:19, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I have, as it happened, appealed for help at the first formal stage, some days ago, and to an individual editor who I believed to be interested.. I am still waiting. Will Scuro please read what I say and please stop asking where this blessed beef is? I have answered that, quite wittily in my view. He is the one who needs to provide substance, not I. As soon as he has a peer-reviewed article showing that 'ADHD' has an objective existence, then he's OK and we can all go home. All I point out, now perhaps for the thirtieth time without any pro-ADHD person contradicting me or responding, is that there isn't one. Therefore I have no duty in any normal argument to argue against it.*You cannot prove a negative. It is up to the ADHD zealots to prove their positive, and they cannot*. Assertion is no substitute. It is up to Scuro and his friends to produce it, or stop their comical attempts to keep from the lay reader the fact that this diagnosis is contentious. Opinion does not decide scientific fact. There is no neurological element in the diagnosis for 'ADHD' nor any evidence that it has a neurological character, and the Kings of the Earth and all manner of scientific bodies may crack their cheeks by bawling that it is so, but they won't alter the fact however loud they bellow. 'Top notch' indeed. In the fable, recall, it was the *emperor* who had no clothes. That is the whole point of the story, that the powerful can be, and often are, wrong by self-deception - and that their power and status does not automatically make them right. One of these grandiose bodies until recently classified homosexuality as a medical disorder. The the fashion changed, and it ceased to do so. Homosexuality remained just exactly the same thing as it had been before. By the way, I am asked to comment on the alleged 'heritability' of 'ADHD'.This, alas, is circular. If something doesn't exist, you can't inherit it. I suspect, however, that you can inherit an independent spirit and a dislike of dreary lessons in incompetent schools, and I am sure that a free society should value such people rather than drugging them. PH, logged in as Clockback ( talk) 20:51, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) "Where is the beef" is an American colloquialism derived, as I recall, from a television advertisement where a customer of a fast-food restaurant is complaining about the sandwich received. (Naturally, the ad was run by a restaurant chain that wasn't the one portrayed!) This ad was extensively exposed until the phrase became familiar, then it was used politically. It has come to simply mean, "what is significant, what's the point?" And, here, "what specific edit are you proposing?" Because all the Talk may sometimes be useful as background, but unless it focuses on actual edits, in the end, there is no "beef" in it. Don't get me wrong: my opinion is that background and philosophical discussion about the principles of what we are doing is proper and necessary, but, beyond a point, stubbornly arguing a position isn't what works here. It's like talking about menus and diet but never actually eating anything. In any case, there is actual editing going on. Nice. Some of the edits aren't so great, but others are. -- Abd ( talk) 05:05, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
I sourced a lot of the fact things, changed some weasel words, eliminated two mini-parts of the article as shown below and rewrote the treatments section to reflect the views of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, which represents the vast majority of psychiatrists' views, and therefore the most mainstream notions of ADHD and various treatments relating to it. source here
I pulled the sentences bolded two sections from the article. I think they should be sourced.
The clinical definition of "ADHD" dates to the mid-twentieth century, when physicians developed a diagnosis for a set of conditions variously referred to as "minimal brain damage", "learning/behavioural disabilities" or "hyperactivity". These conditions were in many cases associated with brain damage, but in other cases not, and do not provide a consistent history of the existence of an identifiable complaint. Researchers speculate that earlier references to the condition have been made throughout history. Sifaka talk 02:16, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
This first a bit wordy and unnecessary as it was stated above that researchers are speculating. The statement is also self contradicting in that the identifiable complaints are descriptions of behavior like "malady of attention" which overlap with the body of indicators related to ADHD, hence the speculation. It also is unsourced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sifaka ( talk • contribs) 00:33, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
In 1937 a Dr. Bradley in Providence, RI reported that a group of children with behavioral problems improved after being treated with stimulant medication. However, stimulants such as methyphenidate or the amphetamines will improve concentration in any individual who takes them, whereas medications in mainstream medicine only produce beneficial effects in those who are actually suffering from a specific complaint. Penicillin, for instance, does nothing for a healthy patient, and paracetamol is useless for anyone who does not need an analgesic. In 1957 the stimulant methylphenidate ( Ritalin) became available.
This second one sort of disrupts the flow of the paragraph and most certainly needs to be sourced. A jaunt to ADD forums, while not a reputable source, comes up with some people saying that this isn't the case with side effects including insomnia, hyperactivity, lack of hunger, etc. I also find it bizarre that stimulant medications are being called non-mainstream as well considering they are fairly commonly prescribed. Sifaka talk 00:22, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Hey Scuro - I see you've reverted my last edit but don't understand why? Can you explain? I've researched the viewpoints (plural) of medical skeptics myself and sought only to better mention the content of the 'controversy' article before the link provided. As it stands, the wording suggests that social critics = journalists and the like but specifically NOT medical professionals, which is untrue. Look, would you please think about my point and re-word it yourself? I'd be grateful if you would as I really am going to follow your good example now. Cheers. Miamomimi ( talk) 13:17, 23 January 2008 (UTC) Not to worry - I've effected a compromise. Miamomimi ( talk) 15:00, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
I thought about that one...if you look at the edit history I clarified everything first...and then thought some more about this. I have seen some webpages by Doctors and Psychiatrists who contend what you contend. What I am really pushing for is citations and then to get info into the main article. Then you can make a summary like you did in the intro if it is well supported. The question is...is there a clear minority of Professionals in the field who question the existence of ADHD? Perhaps you know more about this then I do. If you could post the webpages in talk with groups or different Dr's, it would be appreciated. I'd also like to point out that you can be a Dr. and also be a social critic. For instance Dr. Phil is a doctor, is widely known, has made public comments on ADHD...but I would consider him a social critic about the validity of the disorder. He is not working in the field of ADHD research. Does that make sense? Others may disagree, I'd be happy to hear from them.-- scuro ( talk) 16:47, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
The change was, partially, an improvement. However, there is one problem. The language I'd put in, which was taken out to make this "compromise," was explicitly supported by reliable source, though it did not say a great deal, only pointed out that there are "diverse views." (This was intended as stopgap language, a compromise itself, not as a permanent solution: the permanent solution is to improve the Controversies article -- the very name of which clues the reader into the fact of their being *some* kind of controversy -- and then use summary style to bring back what is appropriate and balanced from that article into this article. The new language implies that disagreement with the general opinion, which is what the article will present most prominently, is confined to "social critics." I appreciate the intention.... but I also agree that, there is, in fact, disagreement over various aspects of the ADHD picture that is coming from professionals, sweeping it all into "social criticism" is incorrect. However, if reliable source can be found for it, fine, though the language may still need tweaking. -- Abd ( talk) 19:06, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
"Diverse views", is just too broad and means nothing except that there are a number of opinions on this very broad topic. It makes no attempt at qualification or quantification. Diverse views would include proponents of "pyramid power" for curing ADHD, and the viewpoint that those who have ADHD are the spawn of devil. It's a no brainer statement because there is no subject where everyone has the same opinion. Sticking that phrase in the intro really doesn't sit well with me. It would even bother me in the body. I took another wack at it shifting weighting and using the word "some". I could live with that edit while Miamomimi searches for citations.-- scuro ( talk) 21:00, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Editor Clockback has repeatedly asked for proof that ADHD is "neurological." ADHD is classified as a behavioral condition or disorder. Behavioral disorders are ipso facto "neurological," it is practically inconceivable that it is anything else. By definition.
The basic error has been pointed out again and again: there is an artificial division some make between supposed physical disorders of the nervous system and behavioral disorders. The nervous system regulates and manages, among other things, behavior. We use the term "behavior," in fact, to refer only to aspects of human activity that are central nervous system mediated. (If a behavior, like heartbeat, takes place with no CNS support, we don't call it "behavior," except in a very technical sense, i.e., "the behavior of cultured heart muscle cells in a petri dish."
So all behavior is "neurological." It does not require proof, because it's in the *definition*. We don't prove definitions, we apply them.
It would appear that what Clockback is objecting to is an implication to the general public that there is some physical "disease", a "neurological disease," which implies some identified structural defect, endocrine disorder, or abnormal chemical imbalance, perhaps genetically based, causing ADHD. The name of the disorder, however, refers to behavior, and the article notes that it is probably heterogenous. (One of the implications is, in fact, that ADHD can have a "physical" cause, i.e., physical trauma can produce the symptoms. ADHD is defined and diagnosed, currently, by behavior, though there are hints at the possibility of supporting a diagnosis with physical testing (such as genetic analysis or drug challenge). Behavioral diagnoses, for all behavioral disorders, not just ADHD, are currently based on assessments of behavior by the diagnostician and are, hence, in some sense, "subjective."
There is substantial evidence, adduced in the article, to a genetic component to ADHD. But, first, what is ADHD?
It is nothing other than a named constellation of symptoms, as with any other behavioral condition. Again, Clockback objects to the term "disorder." Yet, in fact, they symptoms named to represent impaired function with respect to some forms of behavior; the ability to regulate activity, to concentrate on socially expected behavior. These are abilities, and the apparently difficulty that group displaying these symptoms is a "developmental disorder," when we look at it from the point of view of development. If we look at the DSM criteria for diagnosis, *all* of the criteria represent, if based in ability, some deficiency or disorder. Could there be other causes for these? Well, DSM does not consider each of these criteria, alone, to indicate ADHD, nor does it consider even all of them together to indicate ADHD; rather, rather, there must be multiple symptoms, persisting for six months *and manifesting in multiple environments.* Again, could this be imitated by something other than an inability on the part of a child -- or adult -- to do these things? Perhaps the child is so intelligent that the child recognizes that what is being demanded is stupid. Is this a disorder?
Probably. That is, having the skills and the ability to use the skills to successfully cooperate with others is a basic human trait, normally present. An intelligent *and* functional child would understand how to satisfy the needs of those around him or her *as well* as to satisfy the needs of his or her own independence of action and thought.
From the point of view of society, it's important that people be able to communicate and cooperate effectively, and an inability to do so is disabling, and may cause that very intelligent child to, among other things, die young and isolated.
What is very interesting about the treatment of ADHD with drugs is that it generally involves small doses of stimulants. Far from repressing the intelligence of these children and adults, it allows it to be more coherently expressed and integrated. But the treatment of ADHD is not only with drugs, and treatment only with drugs is deficient. Education of the patient and of those who interact with the patient are the other two legs of the tripod. People with ADHD can be *very* functional -- even high-achieving -- when given appropriate support. Schools that have decided to change the old habit of requiring that students fit rigid social models and expectations and instead start to tailor programs to individual students have seen performance skyrocket (see Driven to Distraction, and Delivered from Distraction, Hallowell et al).
In business, Hallowell describes a case where an employee comes up with an idea that will save his employer millions of dollars a year. His boss says, "Fine. I've scheduled a meeting next month, have a presentation ready." Now, anyone who knows ADHD as a practical reality will know that such a schedule, if unsupported, is highly likely to result in failure. Ask me to do something *now*, I'll do it. Ask me to do it *today,* maybe. Ask me to do it by next month, and without further reminder or support, such as someone to help me set milestones and monitor achievement of them, and my success could be very low, whether I get it done at all depends on how difficult it is. I may, sensibly, start early, but then I run into some obstacle and, hey, I've got a month!, so I set it aside. Unless I have very good reminder systems set up, I don't remember until the day before. The employee in the story tries to start several times; he ends up sitting down, the night before the presentation is due, and works until the early morning, perhaps 4;00 AM, and gets it done. He then takes a nap. And wakes up too late to arrive at the meeting. He goes to work, hands his presentation to his boss, and is told, "You're fired." The company, however, implements the program and saves millions of dollars per year. *Quite similar things have happened to me.*
The company fired an employee who could have continued to serve in a very valuable capacity. He was good at certain things, and not at others. By supplying him -- at low cost, in fact -- with what he needed to perform well, or even by simply recognizing that he might be late sometimes, the company could have benefited. But, instead, there was a moral judgment against missing an important meeting. He wasn't a "team player." He was "irresponsible." This man actually benefited, though, by being fired. He started his own consulting business and was quite successful. I'd guess he hired a secretary to keep him on track, or developed methods for doing it himself.
Now, there is a political dimension to all this. Providing support for "disabled" employees, in the U.S. at least, is required by law. If ADHD is a disorder, if it is not merely a choice that an employee makes for which the employee is morally and legally responsible, it might be illegal to fire that employee without making reasonable attempts to accomodate the disability. To my knowledge, this has never been tested, but it is not surprising to me that a conservative columnist might take such an interest in claiming that ADHD doesn't exist. However, with ADHD, it is quite likely that making the legally required attempts will actually benefit the employer (and this may be true for many disabilities). For schools to become more flexible in how the handle ADHD kids is probably going to result in better education for all. Or, I suppose, we could go back to the ruler or swats -- as I experienced, I was in high school before physical punishment went out of fashion, and, while I was loved by my teachers, the school attendance officer took a dim view of the flexibility they accorded me. Even though it was painful, I'd much rather be me than him, and I'll admit it was satisfying when I handed him an order that I was permitted to drop my first period class, which he had swatted me with a special paddle he kept in his office (holes drilled into it so it could be used at higher velocity), for missing. He was angry, livid. I liked that, because he could no longer take it out on me.
So, what is "neurological"? "The branch of science which treats of the nervous system." It includes the study of behavior. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Abd ( talk • contribs) 16:05, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
First may I suggest that making note of the "controversy", or visibly referencing to the the controversy article may very well give undue weight to the "controversy" by placing this in the intro. Having said all that, I have tried to define who the critics were and their viewpoint. Here is my attempt:
The scientific consensus in the field is that ADHD is a disorder which impairs functioning, and that many adverse life outcomes are associated with ADHD. The symptoms of those with ADHD can be not that profoundly different from normal behavior. There are critics who don't believe ADHD exists. Predominantly this group would consist of social critics such as the antipsychiatry movement. Certain religions, especially scientology, are highly skeptical that the diagnosis denotes a genuine impairment and question virtually all that is believed about ADHD. Individual medical professionals and other prominent media personalities also question the disorder. See Controversy about ADHD.
Abd has stated that we shouldn't mention scientology but I ask why not? Along with Antipsychiatry critics, they make up the bulk of the material that questions ADHD's existence. Wikipedia wants us to attribute the assertions.-- scuro ( talk) 04:34, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
The reason for not 'mentioning' Scientology or 'anti-psychiatry' is that there is no reason for including these mentions except as ad hominem smears against the non-Scientologists and those not associated with anti-psychiatry who have reasonable empirical doubts about this fictional complaint - just because they are capable of telling a hawk from a handsaw and are not bamboozled by pseudo-medical jargon. Just as the reasoning for 'mentioning' it is to attempt to discredit those sceptics by association. I suppose you could balance such an assertion by saying that believers in 'ADHD' were 'predominantly' incompetent teachers, bad parents and lazy doctors, often in need of paying patients, backed up by interested drug salesmen and by people wishing to seek a physiological explanation for a moral failing, which in my view is largely true, But I imagine that would be (rightly) rejected, and I wouldn't propose it. But sauce for the goose, etc. PH, logged in as Clockback ( talk) 10:22, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
If "ADHD is fake" crowd was majority viewpoint and the scientists were fringe, I'd agree with you. They are not. Assertions must be attributed. Find me a better answer if you don't like the one I provided. -- scuro ( talk) 12:30, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Oh, that day will come, when the fashion changes, as it did over pre-frontal leucotomy, and people realise the full horror of what is being done in the name of 'ADHD'. But when it does I hope and trust that we on the winning side will not seek to censor the rump that continues to believe in the existence of this nonsense. They will be entitled to their view, and in my opinion should be encouraged to remember that they used to hold it, even when ( as I expect ) they are hoping that everyone has forgotten. Majorities do not decide scientific truth. Evidence-free assertion is not proven even if 99.999% of all scientists happen to believe in it. Scientists, alas, are as open to crowd psychology as everyone else , and have no special weight in scinetific discussion except when they are speaking *as* scientists, that is, dealing with objective, testable proofs which they are themselves competent to examine. Otherwise, their opinion is no more useful and notable than that of, say, sheep-farmers on nuclear waste disposal. Since there is no evidence for the existence of 'ADHD' which scientists can study, nothing save fashion keeps it alive. When fashion changes, as it will, nobody will believe in it at all. Or almost nobody. I believe that some practitioners of pre-frontal leucotomy still maintain that it is cool. PH, logged in as Clockback ( talk) 14:45, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
I suggested that at this point the mention of controversy in this article -- unless clearly related to a particular topic here, and reliably sourced, should be limited to a brief reference, in the introduction, at the end of the intro, to the controversies article, with the briefest of explanation as to what is controversial. The claim that "the existence of ADHD" is controversial is preposterous, but, in fact, some might be claiming that, making it notable. I find the meaning of "existence" in this context to be vague and undefined. What does it mean? What is Hitchens asking for when he asks us to "prove that ADHD exists?" Is he looking for something tangible, that perhaps he could see or taste? Okay, he could see the text in DSM-IV. But, obviously, that does not satisfy him. But ADHD isn't a "thing." There may be some physical thing behind it, but there is only indirect evidence for that, so far. It is apparently heritable, from twin studies, which would imply that there is a genetic pattern, which is, indeed, physical, and which could be the basis for an "objective test." But that doesn't exist yet. However, if it *never* exists, that would not impact the reality of ADHD *as a diagnostic category*.
What Hitchens calls the nightmare of this, referring to lobotomies, isn't about ADHD, it would be about what is being done in response to an ADHD diagnosis. I disagree that it's horrible, at least in the cases I've seen. Which, of course, includes myself, but also my brother (who is now 74), and others I know. The idea of drugged kids is dramatic, but isn't a realistic picture of what a kid on the small doses of stimulant drugs being used is like. But even if it were horrible, the controversy, then, would be over the treatment, not the behavioral syndrome. Perhaps he would claim that these are just normal kids and they should be left alone.... which is equivalent to a claim that the disorder is only an apparent disorder. But an apparent disorder is, in fact, a disorder. Lots of diseases and disorders are transient, need no special treatment except perhaps some symptomatic relief. They are in the books, and it can be reassuring to a parent to know that what their kid has is usually harmless. And, indeed, sometimes a relatively harmless disease is treated aggressively, doing more harm than the disease. What about prostate cancer? There is a huge controversy over this. By a certain age, most men, if they are thoroughly biopsied, will be found to have prostate cancer. But relatively few will die from it, because they die of something else first. On the other hand, prostate cancer is the leading cause of cancer deaths among men. The question is what to do about it; often the answer is nothing. For many, the treatment would be worse than the disease. But not always. -- Abd ( talk) 06:41, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Every few days I see a colleagues younger brother in his home and I can instantly tell he has ADHD Though the parents deny it. They took him for testing and modifed his behavior telling him to never be distracted. They refuse medication and so on and so I go to wikipedia to see how often this sort of thing may happen. People are not seeing other ADHD cases and I would love to see a small portion of this article telling people how often this disorder is misdiagnosed. Please and thank you? Good idea bad? Is it gonna happen? Psychonautic ( talk) 18:11, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Can I suggest you dig yourself? Use these two words to search with: EPIDEMIOLOGY and ADHD. The article is skimpy in that section and I'll help you if you would like that to edit the section.-- scuro ( talk) 04:49, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Well, this response is fairly common, I've run into it. Telling an ADHD kid to "never be distracted" is like telling someone who is nearsighted to see better by trying harder. The problem with distraction is that it isn't recognized as such. That is, I don't think, "Okay, I'm not going to pay attention to my wife now, she's boring." Rather, I'm listening to her, and I think about what she says. And one thought leads to another. With *extraordinary* concentration and explicit attention, I can just listen. Unfortunately, this frequently means that I don't understand what she is saying and I certainly can't remember it.
Those parents are, in my view, abusing their child, if what has been said is accurate. Behind it is often a belief that ADHD symptoms represent defiance or moral defect. If this continues, the likelihood of that kid becoming even more seriously dysfunctional grows, and a high percentage become drug addicts or alcoholics. If the parents could see beyond what seem to be their rigid ideas, they might discover that they have a great kid who simply needs to be understood, to be supported in what he does well, and not to be expected to do what he can't do. ADHD kids can perform, sometimes, well above normal *if supported.*
The article already discusses how common ADHD is. I do think some better discussion of medication would be in order. The fact that the medications prescribed are generally very low-dose stimulants isn't mentioned. These are doses that the parents might not even notice if they took them. Again, there is commonly a moral judgment about drugs, and some people choose to treat ADHD without drugs. Diet can be important. But drugs are only a small part of the treatment of ADHD, the most important part is understanding what it is, how people with ADHD think, what they typically can and cannot do. No parent should be dismayed to discover that their child has ADHD. Unless they are strongly hoping that their child will be merely "normal." While not all ADHD kids are geniuses, quite a few are! And all will do better if better understood, and they need to understand themselves as well. I'd recommend Driven to Distraction, by Hallowell and another author, both MDs, both with ADHD themselves. -- Abd ( talk) 06:56, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
According to a 1990 article by Joel Sappell and Robert W. Welkos in the Los Angeles Times, part of a series of articles about Scientology, "the uproar over Ritalin was triggered almost single-handedly by the Scientology movement." [9] The Citizens Commission on Human Rights, an anti-psychiatry group formed by Scientology in 1969, conducted a major campaign against Ritalin in the 1980s and lobbied Congress for an investigation of Ritalin. Cass Ballenger, a member of the House Education and Labor Committee who met with the Citizens Commission said that "some of the information they provided did not 'add up.'" For example, the article mentions that the Committee claimed a figure of 10-20% of students under age 10 on Ritalin in a particular school district, to which the manager of health services for the district replied, "if they are saying that is the statistic ... they are lying," stating that the percentage of students taking Ritalin or any stimulant for hyperactivity was actually under 1%. [9] Scientology publications identified the "real target of the campaign" as "the psychiatric profession itself" and claimed the campaign "brought wide acceptance of the fact that (the commission) [ sic] and the Scientologists are the ones effectively doing something about [...] psychiatric drugging". [9] -- scuro ( talk) 04:55, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
The critics are not 'claiming' anything, they are saying, what is abolutely true and undeniable, that the DSM contains no objective diagnostic tools, and lacks objective scientific information on the nature of this supposed complaint. They are saying that the burden of proof lies upon those who wish to traet this speculative stuff as established fact. The critics cannot prove a negative because that is impossible to do. There is no scientific journal containing articles about how things haven't been proved, to which the critics can direct the believers(perhaps there should be, but there isn't). The supporters, much more importantly, cannot prove a positive, which if they were as right as they were certain, they would be able to do. If the thing unquestionably existed, there'd be an objective proof for it. As long as there isn't, it remains a matter of opinion and axiomatically a matter of controversy. And until they do come up with objective scientific proof, they should stop acting as if half a ton of graeco-latin waffle on fancy headed paper adds up to proof of anything, and making sneery remarks about 'fringe', or attemting to claim that all the sceptics are Scientologists. One day, one of the 'ADHD' supporters will get this simple point. If not, anyone care to buy Brooklyn Bridge? PH signed in as Clockback ( talk) 16:39, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm going to copy Mr. Hutchin's comment one statement at a time, because otherwise the commentary will be much clumsier. Understand that I'm doing this because I think that there is something to be examined here, specifically the foundation of the controversy. Unless that is understood, the controversy will rage with no side understanding where the real disagreement lies. It appears to me to be about much more than ADHD, but we may need to understand it to approach the ADHD issues. Indented material is from Mr. Hutchins.
Does Mr. Hutchins mean what he writes? Is he careful about his language? I'm going to assume, here, that he means exactly what he says, that his choice of words is not accidental. This may not be true, and if it is not, he is, of course, welcome to say, "No, I didn't mean that, the words were not exact, they were not the right choice." Or whatever.
First of all, there are many critics, coming from various positions. Are they all saying what is "absolutely true and undeniable"? We could, for the article, ask Mr. Hutchins for reliable source for this statement, but I'm setting that aside, and am asking Mr. Hutchins how he knows what is "absolutely true," and what is "undeniable." Is it possible that he errs? Is it possible that they err? What is the difference between "absolutely true," and merely "true"? Or merely "appears to me to be true"? When something is "undeniable," we generally think of being faced with direct evidence, so plain that no reasonable person, seeing it, could deny the conclusion that is being asserted. What is the basis for Mr. Hutchins making this very strong statement. What is the source of his knowledge, and, even more to the point, does he have an special knowledge on which he is basing his claim -- and I mean the claim in the quoted sentence -- that the rest of us do not have. Or are we overlooking what we know? However, note, I haven't examined the substance of the claim yet, only his preface to it. Is he correct, is it undeniable, and, more to the point, is it the controversy we face here?
What is he asserting, that is "absolutely and undeniably true?" DSM-IV contains, in the section we are concerned with, diagnostic criteria which allow a clinician to establish a diagnosis of ADHD. This is, in fact, a definition of ADHD. It is not a proof of anything. It does not pretend to be a proof. ADHD is a *category*, a name for a constellation. Does Orion exist? Apparently, there has been sufficient research and exploration into the constellation of symptoms involved that it has been found useful to give it a label. DSM-IV communicates the applicability of the label, such that a clinician can note a correspondence between the symptoms listed and those presented by the patient. Are these "objective diagnostic tools"? ADHD is a behavioral condition. What is an "objective tool" for diagnosing such a disorder? Every symptom is identified by the clinician through observation or report. The clinician may observe movement of the patient, and has a sense of how common these patterns of movement are. People in relationship with the patient may report patterns of behavior. This is subjective, to be sure, but subjective and objective aren't absolutes, as Mr. Hutchins seems to think. Ultimately, everything we experience, everything we name, every analysis we make, is "subjective." But that doesn't mean that there is not a relative scale of subjective/objective. DSM-IV describes the symptoms in such a way as to allow a clinician to identify the behaviors with *reasonable* confidence that the diagnosis would be made in the same way, with the same observations, by another clinician following DSM-IV. This, if it has been done properly -- one could disagree -- is relatively objective. There is, essentially, a checklist, and so many checks for such and such a period of time justifies the diagnosis. Which merely is a diagnostic category, a means of comparing the clinician's observations with those of others who have made similar observations. It says nothing about causation, in itself, nor does it prescribe treatment, nor does it even identify the constellation as a problem. Except, of course, for the words "deficit" and "disorder" and possibly "hyperactivity."
However, these words aren't part of the definition. Nevertheless, the symptoms do refer to conditions that can justify these labels, they refer, generally, to some kind of impaired behavior, behavior that is considered deficient by the patient or by others. This, as well, is subjective. I'll address this elsewhere. But if we consider whether I'm paying attention, say, to my children or not, we could quantify it. How often, relatively, when my daughter comes to me and says "Daddy," do I not respond? Is this lack of response, sometimes, unusual? If it is substantially less than normal, it's a "disorder," an "impairment." Unless, of course, I'm *choosing* not to respond to her. I can guarantee that I'm not. I'm only aware that she is trying to get my attention retroactively, if at all. (With age, I often have no recollection at all of her effort, when I was younger, I could recover it from my short-term memory of the sounds I was hearing. But then, as now, she might have to try several times, and maybe tug on my sleeve, to get my attention.)
What speculative stuff"? The book is about as objective a fact as I can imagine. You can use it to keep papers from blowing away. The text may be read, and it decodes and seems to make sense. The criteria can be applied, and a diagnosis -- which is not a determination of *cause*, it is the application of a classifying label, a label established by convention, by agreement in a profession, a name for an identified pattern of behavior. What alleged fact is claimed in DSM-IV that the critics don't consider to be true? Do they think that ADHD is some "thing" independently defined, and that the characteristics described in the book don't match it, as if, for example, a claim that my African daughter has blond hair or blue eyes. However, ADHD *is* the diagnostic category described. Mr. Hitchens elswhere approaches what his real objection is, I haven't answered that yet.
What thing? Of course the critics can't prove a negative, but neither can a book giving the definitions of categories *prove* that the category is as is described. It's like proving an axiom. Prove that what we see when we look up, outside, on a clear day, is the "sky." Maybe there is a painted backdrop surrounding the world. Oh. If there were, it would be the sky. That thing we see when we look up.
I see something here that I've noticed before about Hitchen's argument. He seems to think that the activity of science is proving this or that. But, outside of mathematics, the word "proof" is rarely used in science. As I wrote before, were Newton's laws of motion "proven"? No, they were experimentally confirmed, within the limitations of the experiments. Indeed, those laws only describe the behavior of mass and force, they do not prove that mass and force are "real." Are they real? Prove it!
Please show me an example of the "objective proof" of the existence of any behavioral disorder, so I can know what is being claimed to be necessary! Or is there a claim that there is no such thing as a behavioral disorder? What is "it"? Is there any controversy that there is a diagnostic category called ADHD? Who is claiming that this diagnostic category doesn't exist? Yes, there are people who claim that *something* doesn't exist. What is it that they claim does not exist? The category? But that's preposterous. So it must be something else. What is it? (This is a familiar semantic problem. What is "God"?)
According to the principle enunciated here, the definition of any word would be controversial. No. Words are defined by convention, an agreement between those who communicate with them.
Suppose we are recording coin tosses. We record the number of the toss and whether it was a head or not. Then we identify patterns in the tosses. For example, we could count the occurrence of eight heads in a row, and we call this a "run." Now, does a run exist? Now change this. Record the behavioral symptoms of patients, and do this for many patients. Classify these behaviors into patterns that are noticed. Give these patterns names. Now, prove that they exist.
Well, there is the record we kept. Is that objective? How do I know that it was really a head and not a tail, maybe my eyes tricked me, I was distracted, I recorded the wrong thing. Besides, what if there is nothing there but pure random accidents. How would we tell? Well, we'd look for correlations. Is one run correlated with another, such that when a run is found, more often than not, there is another run after it according to some criterion, or is there no correlation. (If the coin tosses are random, there is no correlation. With ADHD, there are patients who show the symptoms. *Therefore ADHD exists*. Now, what does this mean? That's another question!
Is the ADHD diagnosis related to some condition, such that it is not merely a random association of symptoms, of no more meaning than the coin tosses I describe? This can be and has been studied, you know. Negative association, contrary to Mr. Clockback's assertion, *can* be shown. It's not *proof*, but strong evidence, if the constellation were meaningless, which is the only way I can sensibly understand Clockback's position, could be adduced. The "run" could be shown to be no more and no less meaningful than any other specific eight-bit pattern. If the coin is fair. Statistical proof. Is statistical proof acceptible? Or does Clockback want some mathematical proof? Or what? No example of what proof would look like has been given. And, actually, he's been asked more than once to address this issue. He just ignores it, or, once, claimed it wasn't relevant, after all, we are talking about ADHD, not the other behavioral conditions brought up by Scuro.
The question, what it is that Mr. Hitchens is asking about, has not been made clear. ADHD is a diagnostic category; however, the article does treat it as if it were a thing. This is a linguistic convention, and it's common. An article about schizophrenia will treat it as a noun referring to something physical entity. Whether or not schizophrenia is a physical entity or not is actually irrelevant to its diagnosis (at present). And, indeed, Mr. Hutchins elsewhere treats a subjective category as if it were an objective reality, he refers to nothing being "wrong" with a patient. How would we diagnose that?
I'll assert that there is nothing wrong with anyone, period. Unless we define "wrong." What does that mean? Is Hutchins claiming that there is nothing "wrong" with my not noticing that my daughter is trying to get my attention? That there is nothing wrong with my putting everything off until the last minute, a habit I have struggled greatly against, with little success? (I've managed to get through life, raising one family and now another, with external support, which sometimes I get from others, and sometimes I get from systems I've set up, but maintaining my own systems is, again, very difficult. They fall apart. Anyone who has struggled with ADHD will recognize this. Someone else, inclined to moralization, will simply say that I'm irresponsible. Is there any thing "wrong" with being irresponsible? Who says that responsibility is better than irresponsibility?
I've seen no reliable source for that claim that "all skeptics are Scientologists," and Hutchins is perhaps mistaking his interpretation of the efforts of an anti-fringe activist as the consensus in the field: the great "they" that those like Mr. Hutchins love to decry with such fervor. Once again, there is a failure to specify what he's talking about. *Who* are "they"? Where do "they" perform these actions that they should stop? What does "should" mean? Is it an objective modifier? Who decides what should and should not be done? Mr. Hitchens? Or me? Or Scuro? Or the Wikipedia community, through its quirky processes? Or the scientific community, the collective intelligence of the entire body of researchers and analysts? Or what? Is "should" a matter of absolute truth, such that nobody's opinion matters? Who "sneers"? Because one user on Wikipedia makes a weird remark, why should a sober and respectable columnist tar an entire community with what he says? Is he, the one allegedly sneering, typical in some way? If so, of what? Is he a scientist? (He doesn't write like one, but maybe he's studying.) How do we "sneer" in print? (Mr. Hutchins might know the answer to this quite well.)
Ah! Brooklyn Bridge! Where's the beef? What point? And, a stopped Clockback is right twice a day. How's that for rhetorical brilliance, eh?
There is something which I've been aware of since I started writing on-line more than twenty years ago. This all sticks around. Todays' heated argument can be read tomorrow, or next year, and quite possibly a hundred years from now. If, indeed, Mr. Hutchins is a lone (or almost lone) beacon of truth, unjustly repressed by the rest of us, it will be visible. And if he is a tired old crank, unable to understand cogent arguments if they "lick him on the nose," which is something like what he wrote elsewhere, that too will be visible. I've been leaving a record for the last twenty years, and I look back at it from time to time. I've certainly grown, I made arguments then that I would not make today, but ... some writers, pretty clearly, don't look back and don't expect to. We might see more productive arguments if they did.
Don't mistake any of this as an argument for the "reality" of ADHD. Dr. Slobo, elsewhere, has addressed this issue brilliantly and with nuance.-- Abd ( talk) 21:03, 26 January 2008 (UTC) -- Abd ( talk) 21:03, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
75.216.102.185 ( talk) 07:01, 5 February 2008 (UTC)way to long for me to read (ADD sufferer, thats ADHD sans the H) ruthven78
I've moved concerns about labeling onto this page. Several notable people in the field have commented on this and it should be on this article because it is not controversial.-- scuro ( talk) 05:27, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
I've moved genetic stuff from the controversies article here. Not a perfect edit...but that is okay. Perhaps someone can clean that up. -- scuro ( talk) 05:48, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi,
According to Dr. Hallowell's Delivered From Distraction (ISBN-13: 978-0345442314), patients with ADHD have some traits of Reward Deficiency Syndrome. I edited the RDS article just to add an additional definition to the acronym. I don't have time to start an article about Reward Deficiency Syndrome right now, but there are tons of case studies on the internet available. I'm just posting this here as it is likely that contributors for the ADHD article might have some interest in contributing to RDS as well. -- Pinnecco ( talk) 16:11, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
This subject of the article really needs to be fixed, its just thrown in there, like it just has to be there, but in the least possible quality. It needs more info or to be deleted.
Killroy ( talk) 23:26, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
I replaced this:"Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD), or Hyperkinetic Disorder, is considered by researchers in the field to be a neurobehavioural developmental disorder[1] [2] [3]"
With this: "Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD), or Hyperkinetic Disorder, is a neurobehavioural developmental disorder[1] [2] [3]"
There's no need to say: "is considered" since that's a given and sources are already presented anyway.
I removed some stuff which did not appear to conform to a majority viewpoint in the scientific community. You can see the comparison between versions here. My primary motivation for doing so is the undue weight Wikipedia policy. The existence of ADHD is a non-issue for the majority of in-the-field scientists, psychiatrists, psychologists.. etc (see the APA for example). According to the Wikipedia policy, in order to maintain the article's NPOV the majority of the ADHD controversy needs to be confined to the controversy about ADHD page. I used the following pages as guides for my decision, Evolution, Vaccine, and September 11, 2001 attacks. To compare ADHD to evolution for instance a large number of Americans do not believe in evolution, the vast majority of practicing biologists and other such scientists do believe in evolution, thus evolution is dealt with in its main page article with the full weight of scientific fact behind it.
To keep with NPOV, I also moved the controversy section out of the opening and replaced it with a slightly older version which focuses less on the the minority debate on whether ADHD exists or not and more the much larger diversity of views that exist in the scientific community on various aspects of ADHD which I believe is important. Other articles with potentially contentious topics that have broad backing from scientists and/or officials do not link to a controversy section in the opening (see examples above).
Sifaka talk 02:07, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I re-reverted the article to my version. I have read the discussion above about whether or not to mention the controversy section in the introduction. User:scuro wrote a paragraph for the introduction that attempted to summarize in an NPOV manner the critical viewpoint; however, the issue of whether or not the controversy section belonged in the introduction was never resolved in the first place.
I stated my reasons above about why I think the controversy section is inappropriate in the introduction. It is true that I could have first fielded the proposal to move the controversy section on the talk page first and waited for a consensus; however, in my experience I get little response so I wind up instituting the changes anyway and only then do people comment. This time I chose to cut to the chase and be bold, but if you felt I acted improperly, please let me know. In general, I would like to have a discussion about whether or not the controversy section should belong in the introduction. Sifaka talk 20:52, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I thought it best to work in bite sized chunks and started with the intro to the ADHD controversy article. Please view and record any response on the controversy talk page. Thankyou. Miamomimi ( talk) 14:46, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
ADHD is not an attention-deficit type of hyperactivity disorder -- rather, it is a disorder of both or either of attention deficiency and hyperactivity. Therefore, I propose that it be written as "attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder" (with a slash) througout, and that the title of the page be changed accordingly as well. 198.54.202.166 ( talk) 17:13, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Why not attribute exactly who states that it is a disorder and who states that it is controversial? Wiki asks us to attribute where the controversies come from. As mentioned earlier the term "diverse" is too all encompassing, it is like the word "some". If attribution is more specific the reader knows ahead of time what the controversies article is about before they hit the link. So please explain why the intro was reverted.-- scuro ( talk) 12:14, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
In my mind I had always considered that the term "controversy" had been overplayed because the medical and scientific community don't really talk in terms of controversy when they communicate amongst each other. But controversy is mentioned in the popular media and is certainly expounded upon by certain individuals, religions, and advocacy groups.-- scuro ( talk) 05:20, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Just a thought. Also, what the hell is this nonsense: "The scientific consensus in the field, and the consensus of the national health institutes of the world.." perhaps if this was replaced with consensus of the American Health Institutes and governments influenced by multinational drug company lobbyists. Always seemed a bit odd that the America has the highest diagnose rate of this "disease" per 100 compared the rest of the "western World". Or is it simply that some how North American society is especially effective at producing nurophsyiologically "ill" people?
To put it simply, where the hell is the criticisms of diagnostic systems used in in classifying children/adults with ADHD? I am not saying that it may not exist - although again the classifying of certain behavior as a mental illness sin ply because it does not fit in with a particular societies expectations is always dangerous - but the article simply lacks any mention of this. Really2012back ( talk) 19:10, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Show me the national health institute or national scientific body from any country in the world that claims that ADHD is fake. The criticism is in the whole article devoted to controversy. The link is in the second paragraph. We are working at a consensus and hopefully some day the articles will merge together. You could help us by sharing knowledge with proper citations. You may wish to work on the controversies page if this is where your interest is. -- scuro ( talk) 00:20, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
This article is incomplete without a thorough discussion of the works of Thom Hartmann. I suggest that one start out by reading his book entitled "The Edison Gene."
Rather than being a disorder, ADHD is merely a case of a small percentage of our population still possessing a preponderance of "throwback" Hunter/Gatherer genes (instead of a preponderance of Farmer genes).
Being a Hunter in a Farmer's world takes some doing, but it can be done. Simply look at all the Greats of All Time that had ADHD. Edison, Einstein, Lincoln, the list is VERY long... 06:51, 16 February 2008 24.136.22.140 Sig added by Sifaka talk 01:40, 18 February 2008 (UTC) *note this IP is NOT Sifaka
Every disorder seems to claim the greats...ie look under Asbergers and genius and you will see that they claim Einstein and others also. The mensa folks try to claim they were free of disorder, they want their geniuses pure. There is no scientific evidence that Hartmann's theory holds any water.-- scuro ( talk) 06:10, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't know what to do with someone like Hartmann or the neurodiversity theory. Both theories are plausible but unlikely. Neither has support in the academic world and I don't believe either theory is controversial. These are social theories and there is little debate or strife with academics. They don't talk to each other. They are on two different levels. What do you do with these theories? Any thoughts? -- scuro ( talk) 16:13, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
It is a deviation from the "normal" or "average" functionality of the brain
Yes, ADD HAS Neurological tracks i.e. you can SEE it. It just involves a series of expensive and complicated tests.
This is really a subjective question. I would prefer no meds, but without them I just can't really get any work done.
The most likely cause is a deficit of dopamine, a key neurotransmitter in the brain. This is how ADD meds work, they pump you full of the transmitter and some calming agents to cool the Hyperactivity.
>>>All previous information I gathered through various hours of extensively annoying various psychiatrists and psychologists, reading a few books and doing some minor research. Anyone who can back these claims with sources, please do. seeing as how I really can't remember the books I read this from, and can't cite my doctors. This might make the essentials of each view easier to understand and could make it easier to compare viewpoints with each other and mainstream scientific theory. Sifaka talk 19:38, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Take a look at other mental disorders on wiki, such as Aspergers, BiPolar, Tourettes...you don't see a controversy page. You don't see a controversy section. Hunter/ Gather and Neurodiversity deserve their own webpage. I had heard of these theories before coming here. What should be done is to have a sub- subheading within the main article titled alternative theories, brief mention should be made of each theory and how they differ from the other alternative theories, and they should be linked out for readers so they can read on the subject in greater detail. These are not controversial subjects with regards to adhd. Controversy seems to be most linked to medication and that is the topic that most citable critics focus on. By collecting all that that does not agree with mainstream thought on ADHD we have created undue weight by giving too much attention to some ideas and not enough to truly controversial minority opinion. -- scuro ( talk) 20:05, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Why does ADD (Attention-deficit disorder) redirect to ADHD? They are different disorders although similar, as I assuming. -- penubag ( talk) 02:23, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
The brain scan images by Zametkin are clearly flawed. One can see from the noise level that the "normal" brain false color image is scaled with a higher dynamic range than the "ADHD" brain. This is at best misleading, and as such it should not be the only visual on the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.213.44.9 ( talk) 22:57, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Deficits in Attention, Motor control and Perception, which is the combination of ADHD and Developmental Coordination Disorder, has a notability tag. Since it's largely been rejected, and doesn't seem to have gained significant traction at any point, a stand-alone article is probably not the best way to present it. One option is to merge it into ADHD, perhaps as a single paragraph in the history section, or perhaps into a section on comorbidities. Another option is to merge it into the Christopher Gillberg article. If you have an opinion on this issue, please leave a note at the DAMP talk page. (I am not watching this page and will not see any comments left here.) Thanks, WhatamIdoing ( talk) 17:12, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
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== Different articles == Get the medication you need to manage ADHD symptoms effectively.
Shouldnt ADD and ADHD have their own articles? they are 2 different things —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.118.112.57 ( talk) 04:01, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
ADHD (attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder) is currently the correct diagnostic label (and umbrella term) for both attention-deficit disorder with symptoms of hyperactivity AND attention-deficit disorder without symptoms of hyperactivity. WikipedianAndrew ( talk) 03:15, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I've worked with a disproportionate number of children diagnosed with ADD and ADHD. I've read and re-read all of the commentary from researchers, scientists, psychologists, teachers and parents. I've seen no research for those circumstances when the brain/central nervous system 'morphs' from a biological miracle into the different appearances of brain activity and structure that represent ADD. While I guess that there are biologically-suspect causes (this is not a new disorder), I keep seeing small references to "television" and the exposure or restriction of time spent with this type of 'child care provider', as either a potential cause or at least a partial preventative, respectively (depending on the article). I've not seen the implicit results of any research into the impact of early electronic game viewing on young, 'untrained' and still-forming neural connectors and the central nervous system mechanism. I'm curious to know how early-childhood, high speed, high color, intense visual exposure impacts brains that have not yet had the methodical 'training' required to recognize and work with basic shapes, colors and simple problem-solving and how this affects a developing brain. These brains (kids)jump directly into the neurological challenge of an intense, high speed, highly stimulating activity, often at significant durations and frequencies as a part of their early development. How does this stimuli affect the structural and functional area of the brain in early development? I have read that there is some affect to developed brains. I've also read that there are several additional stages of structural development of the brain, after early childhood--how is this subsequent nervous system development affected by ongoing exposure to electonic "high energy" visual stimulation? When may I read the results of this research? 65.194.243.232 17:51, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Why is it such an important topic to decide if adhd is a mental/ neurological disorder? I have been diagnosed and couldn't care less about it. Thanks. 134.106.199.50 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.106.199.50 ( talk) 17:24, August 28, 2007 (UTC)
Many people growing up with undiagnosed ADD are accustomed to having moralistic explanations acribed to their behavior-- that is "you're lazy", "you refuse to behave", "you don't think about the consequences of your actions". The idea that there's a neurology at work frees them from the feelings of guilt they've been trained to experience, gives them a different way of looking at themselves and lets them make a change positive in themselves. Whether ADD is, in fact, nuerological or not, that's why there's a lot of strong feelings about it. Stevecudmore 16:03, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
The distinction will determine if the primary course of therapy is psychological or medical. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.54.75.2 ( talk) 21:18, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I think the dichotomy in the previous comment between mental/psychological therapy is false. The most appropriate treatment could easily involve both types. 128.112.49.106 ( talk) 22:40, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Stevecudmore's and DCDuring's comments are relevant. While they observe that people with "neurological" illnesses are treated better socially than those with "mental" illnesses, this can be thought of as more of a social commentary on popular morality judgments. It might be useful to highlight that the fallacy underlying this social behaviour seems to be that "mental" illnesses are conflated with intentional behaviour. 128.112.49.106 ( talk) 22:40, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
-- Ss06470 01:26, 14 September 2007 (UTC)Fascinating that there is an August question about TV and ADHD and an article by Australian researchers directed at this very question which appeared in Pediatrics which I added here last week and it has already been deleted. Does Childhood Television Viewing Lead to Attention Problems in Adolescence? Results From a Prospective Longitudinal Study PEDIATRICS Vol. 120 No. 3 September 2007, pp. 532-537 (doi:10.1542/peds.2007-0978)
Good work ADHD police. Your diligence is an inspiration. How you get away with it is an amazing story but then so are the mailings I get every week (about 4 or 5)advocating for the vast number of patients I am seeing who must be put on amphetamines or Ritalin to treat their biological condition. I get more ads for this cause then the coupons my wife receives from detergent manufacturers Layman are beginning to be suspicions of Childhood Bipolar Disorder which has seen a 40 fold increase in diagnosis over the last 10 years. Could it be that our "experts" are salesmen for drug companies. They certainly are paid a fortune to make their point. But then I've said all this before including my references to Marcia Angell's editorial in the New England Journal of Medicine Is Academic Medicine for Sale. There are literally billions of dollars involved for drug companies in keeping ADHD biological. When are the people who run Wikepedia going to wake up and guard sites such as this from those who police this site and keep disagreeing facts from reaching the eyes of readers. Who are you Scuro?
Scuro. I tried last time to reason with the likes of your kind 6 months ago and it was a complete waste of my time, so this will be it. I consider Scientology nonsense and regularly prescribe meds when they are warranted. I also use stimulants for ADHD as a practical measure. They do work for reasons I try to elaborate in my article. ADHD and Other Sins of Our Children Many other medications have profoundly influenced psychiatric practice and been helpful. I defended Prozac and Lilly against wild accusation in the British Medical Journal [1] Moreover, I have little doubt that the recent increase in adolescent suicides is related to a decreased use of antidepressants as a result of the media hysteria .
However, there is no question that drug companies promote their drugs in unethical ways and unfortunately many "experts" are essentially hired guns for their point of view. I say this with profound regret and don't doubt that many of them consider themselves innocent and unprejudiced by the huge amounts of money paid to them. I keep mentioning Marcia Angell former editor of the New England Journal of Medicine who wrote her editorial "Is Academic Medicine for Sale" and then went on to write a book about this subject The Truth about the Drug Companies: How They Deceive Us and What to Do about It The editor of the Lancet was even more scathing in comments he made in the New York Review of Books.Horton, R. (2004) The Dawn of McScience. New York Review of Book 51, Vol4..Mental Health Another editor of the NEJM wrote an article in the JAMA with a similar assessment. The fact is 18 billion dollars have been spent on promoting drugs. It is completely out of hand. I invite you to read my article on ADHD before you so easily dismiss me. There are certainly positions that I take that may turn out to be wrong, but they are honest speculations. The consistent efforts here to exclude nonbiological points of view is not honest and should be labeled as such. I don't know if you work for a drug company or are one of the many people who have been convinced that their own problems are "not their fault" because they were born with ADHD, or whatever your motivation, but I once again invite you to reveal who you are. This site with its anonymous posting and claims to scholarly objectivity is absurd.
One last quote from my article
"It Was Like A Whitewash"'
Enter Dr. William Pelham, director of the Center for Children and Families at State University of New York at Buffalo (SUNY). A leading ADHD researcher for 30 years, Pelham is a former member of the scientific advisory board for McNeil Pharmaceuticals, which produces Tylenol and markets Concerta, a popular stimulant medication trademarked by Alza Corp. of Mountain View, Calif. Over his career, Pelham has penned over 250 research papers on ADHD, many with industry grants. In 2002, he was given a lifetime achievement award by the world's largest ADHD patient advocacy group, Children and Adults with Attention Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (CHADD). In interviews with AlterNet, Pelham provided glimpses into the dubious methods drug maker McNeil-Alza uses to ensure that studies it funds produce favorable results for its ADHD medications. Between 1997 and 1999, he was paid by McNeil to conduct one of three studies used to get FDA approval. The company currently uses the three studies to claim that 96 percent of children taking Concerta experience no problems in appetite, growth, or sleep. But Pelham says the studies were flawed. The original intent of the studies was to measure both side effects and main effects of the drug. But two of the three studies, including Pelham's, required that the subjects had to already be taking MPH and responding well to it in order to enter the study. In other words, by stacking the studies with patients already successfully taking stimulants, McNeil ensured the subjects would be unlikely to register side effects, Pelham says.
"It's really misleading and I'm surprised the FDA is letting them use the studies to advertise no side effects," he says. "They had no side effects because they took only people with only a positive history of medication. This is really pushing meds without telling the full picture." There was also pressure from the company to tweak the findings, he says. Part of Pelham's study involved "providing parent training to parents, having a simple behavioral program in place on Saturday lab days, and establishing simple behavioral programs in the children's regular school classrooms." When his paper was in the galley proof stage at the medical journal Pediatrics, Pelham says he joined a conference call with a number of senior people from the corporation who lobbied him to change what he had written in the paper. "The people at Alza clearly pushed me to delete a paragraph in the article where I was saying it was important to do combined treatments (medication and behavioral)," he says, adding that they also pushed him to water down or eliminate other sentences and words that did not dovetail into their interests. "It was intimidating to be one researcher and have all these people pushing me to change the text." McNeil offered no direct response to the allegations.
"We cannot comment on unsubstantiated allegations," says Gary Esterow, a spokesman for McNeil Consumer & Specialty Pharmaceuticals, in a written statement. "The protocols and full study reports for these clinical trials were reviewed by the FDA, and provided the basis for FDA approval. Prior to publication, there was ample opportunity for full discussion of the data among the investigators. Publication of the findings reflect the prevailing opinion of the authors and is further supported by the peer review process of the scientific journals in which these studies appear." Pelham says McNeil didn't stop there. The company commissioned a follow-up study on the conversion study mentioned above. This time McNeil did the data analysis and coordinated the paper writing. "I insisted on seeing the analysis and having major inputs into the manuscript and it was like pulling teeth to get wording and analysis changed," he says. "It was like a whitewash, a praise to Concerta." Pelham says the company submitted the paper twice to the Journal of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry. Drafts were sent to Pelham several times but he says he never returned anything with his signature. In the end, however, he says the paper was accepted without his knowledge and published with his name on it).
My assumption for the reason Pelham was pressured to remove the paragraqh emphasizing the importance of combined treatments (medication and behavioral) is that this would expose the limitations of pediatricians, who would be required to meet this standard of care. By far, the biggest prescribers of Concerta are pediatricians. Use would go radically down if the pediatricians could not believe that they were giving appropriate care based on reasoning that they were simply fixing the chemical imbalance. -- Ss06470 13:30, 18 September 2007 (UTC) Simon Sobo MD
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Ss06470 ( talk • contribs) 13:17, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Scuro, do you believe that people are that stupid? You and all of those who are putting informations based on laboratories data and institutions that are linked with all the promotion of "disease mongering" in order to sell drugs are making propaganda. You can deny it but the public has already enough data to see clearly how unethical you all are.-- Justana ( talk) 11:20, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Was going through older posts and a question went unanswered from Scuro about challenges to the genetic basis of ADHD. Here are two:
THE MISSING GENE Psychiatry, Heredity, and the Fruitless Search for Genes Jay Joseph, Psy.D. Algora Publishing, January, 2006
Joseph Glenmullen, M.D., from Harvard Medical School had this to say "no claim of a gene for a psychiatric condition has stood the test of time, in spite of popular misinformation". This is from Glenmullin, Joseph (2000). Prozac Backlash. New York: Simon & Schuster, 192-198.
I perfectly understand there are conventions and rules here including that this page is not a soapbox, but it would not be necessary to debate these issues here if the page were not a police state. I invite you and other readers to compare the statement under the PET scan on the ADHD controversy page with the one on the ADHD page. Why has that statement been removed here over and over? That very dramatic picture has been used over and over "proving" ADHD is really biological when in fact it proves absolutely nothing. It is what one would expect if the person with ADHD wasn't attending to the assigned task. It is also amazing that
Looking over your arguments Scuro, you seem to have used that scientology, critics are a fringe nut group, once too often. How about attending to science and logic rather, than we all must be crazy. One thing I will acknowledge. The majority of doctors, organizations and "experts" agree that ADHD is biological. The question is whether they are right, why they keep calling themselves "experts" about subjects that we don't have answers for. Take a look at the Frontline interview of the NIMH leading researcher, Dr. Castellanos on ADHD about how much we actually know with scientific validity frontline interview(and he is a true believer in the biological basis of ADHD) The more general question is about the nature of group-think which is not limited to psychiatrists. When I was in training no one dared question Freud. Now almost all conditions are considered biological. I believe part of that is the billions of dollars being spent on keeping people thinking that way. I meant what I said about the number of mailings, seminars, CD, internet e mails, ads in journals. It is absolutely amazing. It would be one thing if there had been some major scientific discovery about ADHD in the last few years, but that is not the case!!! It is simply the amount of money to be made out there. The reason so many editors of reputable journals are writing about this is that they are very upset about it. They are not scientology nuts. At some point even you Scuro have to realize that your repeated generalizations about critics is off the wall. Every once in a while I will check in here to see if you are still using that same perspective. If you are and are continuing to remove contrary posts I will pose the question again. Exactly who are you and why are you doing this?
I am also listed on Antipsychiaty links but that is a silly characterizations. We are clearly critics not antipsychiatrists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ss06470 ( talk • contribs) 12:20, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
I am also listed on Antipsychiaty links but that is a silly characterizations. We are clearly critics not antipsychiatrists. I am not trying to bash ADHD. I believe the description of it applies to many children, I just don't accept it is a biological illness that has inflicted millions and millions of children
You seem to rely an awful lot on ad hominem arguments I have used my search engine and see you are everywhere. I ask again who are you? What is your connection to Dr. Barkely? It is fine if you communicate but I would like to know whether you simply quote him a lot or regularly communicate. You may not be required by the rules here to reveal this, but in ordinary ideas about scholarship it is an absolute requirement so that your credentials can be considered, especially since you delight in attacking others by reference to character rather than the substance of arguments Also a word about Dr. Barkley. He recieves money from McNeil Pharmaceuticals (U.S.) and Janssen-Ortho (Canada) (speaker fees) Shire Pharmaceutical Co. (Consulting/speaker fees) Pfizer Pharmaceuticals, Eli Lilly Co. (Speaker/Consulting fees) I don't doubt his claims that the amounts are not a substantial part of his income, but if that is so why doesn't he end these connections?-- Ss06470 12:39, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Scuro, and many other "Scuros" are everywhere. This one is one of the editors of "Anti-Psychiatry" article that is written to put your work as nonsense. We have better laugh otherwise we'll end up so bitter with all these absurdities that we'll put in jeopardy our well-being. Let's wait till all this scandal that psychiatry is promoting with the help of so many will be finally uncovered. It'll take time. A lot of time for the work of "Scuros" are well paid and count on support of institutions and powerful people as you know quite well.-- Justana ( talk) 11:36, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Justana, you are new. You can't simply tee-off on someone in talk. Wikipedia is not a messageboard or a blog. Your accusations are baseless, desist or risk being blocked. Please desist in making personal comments/attacks in talk. WP:EQ As Wikipedia policy states, comment on the content and not the contributor. Thank you.-- scuro ( talk) 21:12, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Listen Dr. S. you are way off topic once again. Let me reiterate, your assumptions about me are wrong and I'm not going to post my real name or further personal information. What you are posting is irrelevant to this talk page or is of a personal nature. Continue with this and you will simply be ignored. -- scuro 15:50, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
i swear to god this article keeps getting shorter and shorter. is someone removing bits from each section or something? wasnt that treatment section way longer. this article used to be better, im sure i dont like it change it make it better its shit. fuck u all for making it crap. and it says 'comorbid conditions are ODD.' wtf? whos changing this article into a pile of cow faeces?—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])
I myself am ADHD (Though taking med) but since before I was even diagnosed up till now (At least seven years) I have been the smartest kid in my school -- not just grade, the entire school -- and if I was given the chance to take the 10th grade math TAKS test now I would probably ace it, yet I am only in 7th grade. Consequent of reading this article I am highly offended by the description of the prognosis of ADHD. This article does NOT conform to the NPOV policy and should be revised accordingly. eXtreme Circuitz 01:56, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
It's been two months now with no specific objections lodged. I'll remove the POV-section tag. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eubulides ( talk • contribs) 04:33, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Someone made a change to the introduction based on a BBC report, giving what seem to be preliminary, non-published results from the Multimodal Treatment study. The change about the results after one year was reasonable, that information was indeed published. The subsequent edit to show the three-year results, showing no long-term benefit, is based solely on the BBC report. That report has been widely echoed in the media as a "proof" that long-term results of ADHD drug use are nil. But I was unable to find any details of the actual new study. It is premature to incorporate such results in the introduction, which should be solid. The anonymous editor was properly reverted by User:Scuro. As to the one-year results, they might indeed be put into the article, with proper reference to the study itself (if it isn't already there, I haven't checked), but that's too much detail for an introduction. When the newer study is published, assuming it is published, after peer-review and facing general criticism within the field, some mention in the introduction might become proper and even important. This is a link to the BBC report: [2] -- Abd 18:00, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
I note the BBC report describes this condition as a 'behavioural condition' not a neurological one, and cites cases of children with obvious family and personality issues rather than focusing on 'pure' ADHD. It's interesting that many of those who are promoting non-drug approaches just happen to be those who make money from psychological and/or behavioural treatments that have even less evidence to support them. Of course many people with psychological or behavioural issues will benefit from therapy, but therapy cannot treat the underlying neurological condition. The BBC report neglects to discuss adult ADHD nor does it distinguish between ADHD and ODD. The simple fact is that for many people taking ADHD medication greatly improves their symptoms, of course if it doesn't they shouldn't take it and it's a good idea for people to have trial medication breaks now and then to test this. The diagnosis and treatment of ADHD is far from perfect and it is not clear that all or indeed most of those diagnosed with ADHD actually have the condition. I have ADHD and if I miss my meds, I feel like I can't see or focus properly, forget masses of basic things, feel overwhelmed and out of control rapidly and have no impulse control, and many others feel the same. I don't get violent and have a very high IQ and intellectual ability, but often underperform because of my ADHD symptoms. I'm so angry that the preliminary results of this one study are being blown out of all proportion and so many relevant facts are being overlooked. Another case of hype and scaremongering over science I'm afraid. Someone needs to tidy up the recent changes to this article that this BBC show seems to have inspired. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.132.206.195 ( talk) 21:35, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Hello. I am the one who posted the original BBC story. Sorry about the unsigned post. I wasn't using my computer then. Here is my suggestion
Vapour 23:44, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Note:I have seen some of the comments in online new media about this news. There are quite few negative comments from people who is on medication and who find the treatment helpful
Vapour 23:44, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
When removing substantial chunks of text, it's a courtesy to move it to the Talk page. That way, it is easier to find to reincorporate into the article, if needed. I agree that the intro was too long, so I haven't reverted this change, but there are facts here, with sources, that should probably go back into the article. I don't necessarily have time to do it....
Studies show that there is a familial transmission of the disorder which does not occur through adoptive relationships. [1] Twin studies indicate that the disorder is highly heritable and that genetics contribute about three quarters of the total ADHD population. [1] While the majority of ADHD is believed to be genetic in nature, [1] roughly 1/5 of all ADHD cases are thought to be acquired after conception due to brain injury caused by either toxins or physical trauma prenatally or postnatally. [1] According to a majority of medical research in the United States, as well as other countries, ADHD is today generally regarded as a chronic disorder for which there are some effective treatments. Over 200 controlled studies have shown that stimulant medication is an effective way to treat ADHD. [1] [2]
-- Abd 01:59, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
And editor changed the term ADD in the article to ADHD. While this may be a correct move (I think it is), the editor apparently used a text editor to replace all "ADD" with "ADHD", thus changing the word "additionally" to "ADHDitionally," as an example, and also changing the occurrence of the term "ADD" in a reference, the title of a paper," similarly. Another, more experienced editor reverted it as a quick fix. The reversion should have been explained in the edit summary or here. "Don't bite the newcomers." -- Abd 13:36, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
"A marked decrease in academic skills such as reading, spelling, or math is common with children who have ADHD." - Honestly, this has been the reverse in my experiences with peers and children diagnosed as such. While I can't change it (since this would be considered original research), I would sincerely appreciate a citation proving this effect. In my experiences, people with ADHD (or ADD) have been highly intelligent people with unique abilities. They are highly creative, able to focus very closely and for long periods of time on interesting tasks ("hyperfocus"), and able to remain comfortable in vague and imprecise subject matters, relying on the very same intuition that they attained as a coping mechanism in the non-ADHD world. kevinthenerd ( talk) 02:03, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
... since I last looked at the site. That's a well-working lobby for you. - 91.23.143.224 ( talk) 11:54, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
The reference section is ruined. And the introduction seems like it's attacking the idea before even introducing it. Someone clean up. 99.225.178.225 ( talk) 23:53, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Recent edits have been challenged because they give undue weight to minority or fringe opinions. Please seek consensus first on this talk page before making edits which other editors disagree with.-- scuro ( talk) 05:23, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Don't be ridiculous. The existence of 'ADHD' is challenged by qualified doctors and scientists, notably by Dr Fred Baughman, an experienced paediatric neurologist in his book 'The ADHD Fraud' . I have interviewed Dr Baughman about this at length, and think he makes a scientifically and medically coherent case which is ignored by this article in the bowdlerized form to which its self-appointed guiardians have repeatedly returned it. In science, those who wish to advance a theory must prove it through repeatable, peer-reviewed experiment. The supporters of the 'ADHD' theory have never, despite years of trying to do so, produced an objective test for its presence. Those who are diagnosed with it are likewise not diagnosed by an objective test but through a vague and subjective list of symptoms. It may well be true that powerful forces have an interest in promoting the idea that 'ADHD' exists, as do those parents who receive welfare benefits because their children have been 'diagnosed' with it, or the teachers whose formerly chaotic classes are now quiet because so many of their charges are now receiving powerful psychotropic medication whose long-term effects are as yet unknown. Whereas those who doubt it are not so powerful nor wealthy, and have no interest but a desire to search for the truth. I am being extremely fair, in my edits (which I propose to continue indefinitely until this article is fair) in leaving untouched the arguments of those who believe in ADHD, merely inserting language which makes clear that partisan assertions are not facts, and which also makes clear that the existence of this complaint is disputed. The size and extent of dissent against a popular or fashionable idea has no bearing upon its truth, or its right of expression. Scientific truth never has been, and cannot be, established by majority vote (not that I know of any ballot on this subject ever having been held) . If this were so almost no dissenting voice in science ( or any other field) could get a hearing on Wikipedia, and many theories now established as true would have been denied such a hearing at the time their discoverers were seeking to establish them . Their attempts to suppress the fact that this diagnosis has scientifically-and medically qualified critics, and remains unproven, and has no objective measure, are engaging in straightforward censorship and should desist. I have expressed some scepticism elsewhere about Wikipedia's unachievable fetish for a 'Neutral Point of View', but where there is deep division among scientists about the existence of a complaint then it is surely necessary for any article about that complaint to make that division clear from the start. Declaring those you disagree with to be a 'fringe' is simply ad hominem, and illegitimate in serious debate. Most established ideas have been thus dismissed at some stage. The scientific argument goes to the heart of the matter. Where is the objective test for a complaint which is generally treated by the prescription of highly objective, powerful chemicals which act directly upon the most sensitive and least-known organ of the human body, the brain? The contentiousness of 'ADHD' is the most important thing about it. Anyone researching it (especially, say , the parent of a child told by teachers or others that her child suffers from this alleged complaint) should be allowed to learn of this directly from Wikipedia. Peter Hitchens, signed in as Clockback ( talk) 19:19, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Peter Hitchens, signed in as Clockback ( talk) 23:07, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
I know that Clockback doesn't need my contribution or support on this matter but it seems to be a consensus thing and I believe this is important and that you are wrong in opposing him. I reverted the last edit because the 'disputed' tag was insufficient - it gave a link to the top of this talk page and you have to trawl through tons of stuff, inluding jokes, to find this issue. A reader probably wouldn't do that. You have proved that Clockback is right, in alerting us to the fact that there is an article stating exactly the opposite of this one. I think he is looking at this article from the point of view of a concerned, and possibly not that PC literate, parent. Logic would tell that parent that this entry would contain all the facts and it doesn't, it does what Clockback says it does - presents opinion as fact. Surely the most sensible thing to do would be to combine the two articles? I looked up ADHD tonight after a discussion with friends and typed in 'ADHD ADD wiki' and the 'controversy' was not listed - I expected all the facts to be in this article and they clearly are not. That's why I reverted and stated my opinion. I think the two articles should be combined. Miamomimi ( talk) 00:28, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Here is an example (of the fact that controversy isn't just "in the minds of antipsych critics and religious groups.."): "There is no escaping the fact that ADHD remains a controversial diagnosis, however. Some health practitioners believe it is under-diagnosed in the UK, and that children are going without the help and support they need in order to make the most of their education and life chances; other practitioners fear it is being over-diagnosed, and some have serious doubts about or even reject the concept of ADHD altogether." From a government website Ancadi ( talk) 09:56, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Once again: it's clear who are the people that take care of the Medical Editors Articles of Wikipedia. It must go to the medias because when people search the Web for ADHD the first article is Wikipedia. It has to stop.-- Justana ( talk) 11:51, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Simply because someone is, or was a Dr., doesn't make them a majority opinion or even minority opinion. There were many Dr.'s involved in the holocaust, could we quote from them and call it majority or minority opinion? No, Peter...you would do well to read up on Wiki policy in this regard. Here is the link to a PBS series on ADHD. Here we learn that Baughman was paid by Scientology. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/medicating/interviews/baughman.html. If you are still going to hang your hat on Baughman I can go to the trouble of finding more sources, and more direct quotes, like the quote where he discounts all scientific research on ADHD in the field. The point I am making is that he obviously biased, in fact I can think of no worse source to quote from on the topic of ADHD. His bias is blinding. He does tell a compelling subjective story though. We hear of the poor plight of duped parents often, he does make himself out to be a knight in shinning armor. Baughman does harp on constantly about how there is no medical test for the disease ADHD. First off, it is not a disease but a disorder. Disorders are disorders because if there was a known medical test for the condition they would be diseases. There are many disorders where there is no foolproof test for diagnosis and they would include conditions such as Tourettes, Schizophrenia, and Parkinsons. Oh I forgot, he denies all mental disorders exist.
You can call us names but in the end it will come down to citable sources. I've been involved in arbitration before. You better get your ducks all lined up in a row. Not attempting to cooperate with other editors, and then acting unilaterally would be a major strike against you. The first order of business would be to find good reliable sources which state the diagnosis of ADHD is a controversy. Good luck!-- scuro ( talk) 13:01, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) Right. -- Abd ( talk) 05:19, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
From what I remember reading from Baughman, this is what he believes:
All of these beliefs are fringe beliefs and taken as a whole show blinding bias more akin to a faith based belief system. Unlike scientists, Baughman's beliefs don't change over time. Go back decades and what he states then is identical to what he states now. Scientists on the other hand change their viewpoint as more information is known. All of this relates directly to his reliablity of the source.-- scuro ( talk) 17:20, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
I have indeed been 'warned' - by one of those involved in the controversy. I really cannot see why this is so significant. The self-appointed guardians of the page are apparently allowed to delete my legitimate alterations as many times as they like without penalty. But I am not allowed to do the same to them. I could just as well 'warn' him, if I knew how to post the fancy red triangle, but I don't. All I know how to do is to argue with facts and logic. My simple point, that this is a matter of contention, remains true and ought to be stated clearly at the start of the article. Wikipedia acknowledges this fact by maintaining an entry on the controversy. Your comparison of my position with that of a flat-earther is absurd and I could easily consider it abusive if I felt that way inclined. As it is, I have been abused by experts in my time, and am uninterested in that . Instead, I shall demonstrate the falsity of the comparisons by fact and logic, as follows: There are scientific proofs of the shape of the earth which are predictive, repeatable and objectively testable. That is why flat-earthers are absurd and it would be false equivalence to equate them with round-earthers. No such proofs exist of the existence of any complaint called 'ADHD', as even its advocate above admits. Therefore the burden of proof actually still rests on those who contend that there is such a thing as 'ADHD', as they well know, which is why they get so upset (and intolerant) when anybody says the emperor hasn't even got any socks on. The 'abuse' to which I refer is the repeated ad hominem abuse (undoubted and repeated) and unsubstantiated allegations (see above) levelled without evidence against Dr Baughman (to which outrage and offence against civilised debate you respond above with the mildest possible language, compared to the stern tone you take with me - and by the way I was well aware of the sidebar when I made my comment). The threats are exactly that, repeated threats to report me etc, which are never actually fulfilled, much as I would like them to be - another characteristic of threats. What other word would you use? I'm happy to adopt any reasonable alternative. And now you're doing it too. If I continue *what* without caution? I'm stating my case on the talk page, with great patience and despite the unwillingness of my opponents to deal with my arguments, clearly made. Their only response is to make nasty remarks about Dr Baughman. I have held off restoring the censored material in the hope of a compromise. I continue to do so. But a compromise involves some movement by the pro-ADHD faction which appears to think it owns this entry. Peter Hitchens, logged in as Clockback ( talk) 17:24, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
No, I am not aware of any such thing. An ad hominem attack is an attack on the person( eg the attacks by some above on Dr Fred Baughman). I have attacked the methods and the arguments(or rather the lack of them) of those who have arrogated themselves the right to censor legitimate contributions. I have also clearly stated that I will not change the article while I seek a compromise. No compromise has yet been offered by the unquestionably pro-ADHD editors who have removed my edits on the grounds that they do not agree with them. At least, they have yet to produce any other grounds. I would happily negotiate an improvement with anybody who showed any sign of negotiating anything. All I get is ad hominem attacks on Fred Baughman, and threats to report me to the authorities, which I beg the authors to act on. Please. Peter Hitchens, signed in as Clockback ( talk) 21:35, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Since there undoubtedly is, as acknowledged by the existence of a separate Wikipedia entry on that very controversy, the article is seriously deficient because of its lack of NPOV on the dispute between those who believe in 'ADHD' and those who don't, and also because of the persistent use of weasel expressions, especially the passive voice. We have already established in this discussion that even those who believe in 'ADHD' accept that there is no objective test for its presence, and therefore cannot maintain it is an established or undisputed scientific fact, or even one open to disproof. Please do respond soon. I have refrained from further edits in the hope of a compromise, but cannot wait indefinitely for any sign of one. Peter Hitchens, logged in as Clockback ( talk) 08:35, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
To 'Abd': 'Versageek', the administrator you mentioned, is a participant in this discussion and appears to me to take one side rather than the other. This is a simple fact. See above. Clockback ( talk) 08:50, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
I am not sure any of you are reading what I am saying. I am taking this seriously. I have not touched the entry for days and await proposals for a modification. What are you all waiting for? The faults of the existing entry are clear under Wikipedia's own rules - an absence of NPOV on the two sides of the controversy, and the extraordinarily pervasive use of weasel words, especially the passive voice, in the article. It is absurd to pretend that no controversy exists ( several British journalists have written critically about this theory, and about the mass prescription of methylphenidate) and monstrous to belittle dissenters by classifying them as 'fringe', solely on the grounds that you don't agree with them. I have made my arguments quite plain. All orthodoxies dismiss their opponents as 'fringe'. That is what orthodoxies do. Dr Baughman's critique of the ADHD lobby's attempt to provide the objective evidence it knows it needs ( and cannot get) is contained in his book 'The ADHD Fraud' which I am sure he would make available on line. Please stop lecturing me about my many undoubted faults, and come up with some proposals, sooner rarther than later. I do not know what 'the question of a subjective diagnosis was brought up by you' means, or is intended to signify. Of course I brought it up. I brought it up because it is crucial to the argument,objective diagnosis being the general rule in medicine, and goes unmentioned in the article. Peter Hitchens, logged in as Clockback ( talk) 17:03, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Good for you, Landcamera. But your contribution is contradictory. If I have an anti-ADHD bias, and I absolutely do, as I clearly state above, doesn't it cross your mind that you, and others who like things as they are, might - just possibly - have a teeny-weeny little pro-ADHD bias? In which case, golly, there's a controversy, which is unreflected in the entry, hence the NPOV problem. Peter Hitchens, logged in as Clockback ( talk) 17:52, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
I wrote the above before seeing Clockback's last edit, and I realized that I intended to add one more comment: the article *does* recognize controversy, with reference to the controversies article. So Clockback's assertion that it doesn't, quite simply, is not true, it is, at best, incautious. (However, that article *cannot* be cited as any kind of proof that controversy is notable, and assertions that it does show that merely demonstrate that the writer has not studied the guidelines and policies. Wikipedia is not a reliable source, period, not yet (not unless and until there is some kind of reliable peer-review process). -- Abd ( talk) 18:34, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
::::may I ask who cares? Landcamera900 ( talk) 19:09, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
I have requested a third party, not involved in this edit war, to either compose a re-write themselves or request another editor to action the change. Personally I have no agenda here but do not have the time to change the article myself, sorry. It seems clear to me that a change is needed as the balance and NPOV of the ADHD article is compromised by the weighting of the link to the controversy over ADHD; it is tucked away at the bottom and easily missed. There IS a controversy over this issue, not just here but within the medical community, and that should be included with due prominence at the beginning of the article. Either that or the edits that Clockback made should be reinstated. I have stated my preference earlier. In fact I think the first section could do with a re-write; it contains no history. Miamomimi ( talk) 20:31, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
A number of editors have claimed that there is a controversy with ADHD as a disorder. I have asked several times here in talk for a good reliable citation that demonstrates this contention. What national health institution, legal judgement, scientific body, or higher institute of learning recognizes that ADHD is a controversial diagnosis or controversial condition? These are the pillars of society and I have yet to see any pillar of society seriously question ADHD. The clear avoidance of providing a citation or even responding to this citation request is a glaring omission on the part of editors demanding change to the article. Communication is part of consensus building.--21:07, 8 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scuro ( talk • contribs)
Miamomimi, thanks for the link. I have no doubt that there are oodles of social critics that think that ADHD is a controversial disorder. The controversy of adhd article clearly illustrates this. But social critics are a dime a dozen and typically don't carry that much weight on WIki. When we look at the pillars of society, they all accept ADHD as a diagnosis. For example, take a look at the 5 state judgments in the ritalin class action lawsuits. Those lawsuits examined the very issue we are dealing with right now. All of the cases were withdrawn by the plaintiffs before they even went to trial. Why? Because the judges wouldn't let them frame the case in the light they wanted to depict ADHD in, they realized they didn't have a leg to stand on.-- scuro ( talk) 21:36, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
This whole debate is silly, there is no NPOV issue, only some people unhappy they cant spin the article to get their little message out. People come to the article to learn about the disorder not to have wackjob anti-psych conspiracy theories thrown in their face (there is a whole article already dedicated to that issue already) And on a side note having ADHD I'm positive that the veiws of others who dont have it, and want to dispute it, have no merit. you cant convince me to disbelieve something I feel every minute of every day. Landcamera900 ( talk) 03:27, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Here is a first draft for a suggested improved version of entry. It's by no means finished, and there is a severe technical mess at the beginning where I can;'t seem to get the (rather important)text between the references to appear. It's readable if you go into edit mode, but not currently on the page) Can a more skilled person please help? but I would hope it would form a basis for reasoned discussion. I have not yet dealt with the controversy over whether brain differences measure pre-existing states, or simply chart the fact that some people have different brains because of the way they use them. I'd be delighted if someone else could tackle this particularly contentious passage, but if not will get round to it myself in time. Peter Hitchens, logged in as Clockback ( talk) 17:12, 9 January 2008 (UTC) :
Dear Mr Camera, I am trying quite hard to reach a sensible compromise, and do not seek to fool anyone. . Don't you think you should try too? Once again, can someone with the tech skills please unscramble the references, because at present only part of the introduction is visible here, though it can be read if you click on 'edit'. PH signed in as Clockback ( talk) 20:03, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Clockback - I think you have done a good job on the ADHD article but I see what you mean about text being lost when published. A general rule about any programming is, if you open an instruction, to close it. As this is a general rule, for visibility here I'm using round brackets instead of pointy ones, if I use the correct tag it will action the command. So, to make something a reference it would be (ref)something(/ref) see? the (ref) starts the instruction and the (/ref) closes the command. In your editing I first notice a command to start a reference but no close, so everything until a close is considered the reference:
(ref) [6]
should be (ref) [7](/ref)
or if you use the edit option on this page you can see the real thing:
[3] and text goes on as normal.....
Ok now because of the square brackets it's a hot-link reference anyway but notice that one is superscript, that's what the ref command does.
I'm not up on Wiki programming so not equal to amending the article (and pushed for time at the mo) but I think that might be why you are losing text when published.
If you know this already please don't be offended - missing end tags is the easiest thing in the world, we all do it.
Aside If still having the weasel words accusation (and no one else is helping out) perhaps changing the sentence around would cut down on the offending weasels?
eg. They maintain that the disorder typically presents itself during childhood, and is characterized by a persistent pattern of inattention and/or hyperactivity, as well as forgetfulness, poor impulse control or impulsivity, and distractibility.[5][6] They also consider it to be a persistent and chronic condition for which no medical cure is available.
could become: The apparent disorder, characterized by a persistent pattern of inattention and/or hyperactivity, as well as forgetfulness, poor impulse control or impulsivity, and distractibility.[5][6], typically presents itself during childhood and is considered to be a persistent and chronic condition for which no medical cure is available.
just a thought, now I really must get my head into the french revolution. C'est la guerre! Miamomimi ( talk) 23:57, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Draft moved to a subpage, please edit the subpage -- Versa geek 21:45, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
I think the working draft is a major improvement on the existing entry, giving due prominence to doubts about the diagnosis while also giving full expression to the views of those who support it, so allowing a lay reader to form an independent opinion, and stimulating her into further research. I am grateful for the work that's gone into it. That is not to say that I think it goes far enough. I would still criticise the use of the passive voice, as in 'generally considered'. Actually, (see Kealey and Greenfield) it's not 'generally considered'to be this ( if 'generally' is taken to mean 'more or less universally' , but is considered so by some, emphatically not considered so by others, and doubted in broad terms by yet others). The most recent Buffalo University study of methylphenidate, which is the chosen response of most doctors to the diagnosis, is a blow at that prescription, and by implication at that diagnosis. I also think the description greatly underplays the role of medication in treament, merely mentioning it as one aspect among many, when it is in fact the preponderant response. It is by far the most important medical reaction to diagnoses of ADHD, and by far the most significant in its major effects on those who take it. Among the most prominent critics of the diagnosis are those with the most precise scientific knowledge of disorders of the brain (see Baughman. You may dislike his tone, and I would prefer it if he were more restrained in his arguments, but he remains a qualified and experienced neurologist, which few, if any, of his critics are) . And the use of terms such as 'ADHD students' and 'ADHD kids' assumes that one side in the controversy is correct. hence my formula of 'diagnosed with ADHD', which the eagle-eyed will note is a retreat from my original "considered by supporters of the diagnosis to suffer from ADHD". What is the next step? Peter Hitchens, signed in as Clockback ( talk) 10:58, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't know why I bothered. Miamomimi ( talk) 11:48, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
"Generally considered" may be improved upon. A more specific term could be used. It's not as bad as "some". Yes, I also think that medications role is underplayed. If treatment is employed, it may not be the first option but typically is the option which has the most success and which is also used for longer periods of time. I don't know if this information can be sourced. Baughman on the other hand is proverbially out to lunch. Come on now, one prescribed dose of Ritalin will forever change your brain? He has made so many bogus and controversial statements that he is easily shown as being not a reliable source. In the field of science he is largely ignored. As mentioned before, find other critics such as Gullieman(sp?). -- scuro ( talk) 12:49, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Miamomimi should not be so downhearted. Technophobes like me are not much helped by detailed instructions on where to put brackets, round or square, however well-meant and kindly they may be. Our brains glaze over. (You might as well give us detailed remote instructions on how to fly an aeroplane. We'd still crash it, while asking "WHICH red button on the left....I can't see it...Oh... you mean that one? No, not that one....)If we knew where to put the brackets, we would have put them there. Indeed, we tried in this case to do so, but it didn't turn out as planned. What we need is for someone who knows how to do it, to do it for us. AS for Scuro, yes, a dose of methylphenidate will change your brain for research purposes, that is to say, anyone who has taken it will scan differently from anyone who hasn't. If you can show me anything Baughamn has said about ADHD that is demonstrably false, then please do. It's the general 'out to lunch' type of comments which are just ad hominem, as are attempts to discredit his attacks on ADHD by reference to his opinions on other matters. It's his arguments on ADHD which we are discussing , not his qualities as a human being, and teh ad hominem stuff compels me to defend him. Remember, he is a neurologist and medical practitioner with many years in paediatric practice ( skills which don't always give a man any special abilities in public relations or presentation, but which nonetheless require some respect when the subject under discussion is an alleged malfunction in the brains of children. And one of his own children was diagnosed with ADHD, which was the beginning of his interest in the subject. Peter Hitchens, logged in as
Clockback (
talk) 13:32, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
I reverted some non-DSM symptoms that were added by an IP address, but it occurred to me that a section on other symptoms could be useful - this could include the "bridging time" and other frontal problems noted by Barkley, as well as sleep disorder and eating disorder tendencies. Thoughts? -- Vannin ( talk) 17:35, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
“Once Ritalin or any psychiatric drug courses through their body, they are, for the first time, physically, neurologically, biologically, abnormal.” ~~Dr. Fred Baughman http://www.pseudo-adhd.oism.info/en/doc/Fred_Baughman_2006_en.htm
So a child upon taking their first dose of Ritalin would be forever changed. There body would change, there mind would change, and I think he is also implying that their genes would change. A child on their first trial of Ritalin will have received the lowest dose possible. It's not at all unusual at this dose that the child will experience and feel nothing...yet this is to change the child forever? A simply stunningly outlandish declaration for which I can find no citable support. Do you know of a reliable source which can back up this claim?
I don't have a scientific degree yet I found this exchange on talk about Zametiken enlightening. After you read that section, scroll further down the page for more sections on the same topic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Attention-deficit_hyperactivity_disorder/Archive_3#ADHD_Imaging
-- scuro ( talk) 21:05, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
OH, Mr Camera, what would we do without you? How unimprovably witty and trenchant. Anyone who wants to know my own position on this matter in full may turn to: http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2007/05/the_adhd_fantas.html PH, logged in as Clockback ( talk) 12:48, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Landcamera900 - you're right, it's also the source of the longest kiss in history.
Scuro - you seem intent on convincing
Clockback that your viewpoint is the only valid and sensible one and that he should therefore adopt it too and thus the controversy Clockback seeks to include in the article should by default be deemed invalid and unnecessary. I see no point in this argument - the controversy over ADHD exists and arguments over that truth are redundant. Baughman is a credible, qualified source and should be cited in the article. That is my view. /endcoffee.
Miamomimi (
talk) 14:09, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I am in agreement with Clockback and Miamomimi and I believe Scuro is entirely missing the point, which is not the finer detail of whether or not the proponents or opponents of the existence of ADHD are right or wrong. It is about whether disagreement and controversy exists within the medical profession and the media over the actual existence and objective means of diagnosis of ADHD. Which it does. Therefore it should be included in the article. Simple. Nsign ( talk) 14:54, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks to Miamomimi and Nsign. I really think we may be getting somewhere. Scuro, please pause for a moment. Note that I have conceded that Baughman has faults in his rhetoric and his tendency to pump up the temperature. We agree on that. Pocket the concession, please. But how important is it, given that he's a qualified neurologist?(and you, I think, are not) You allege that Baughman produces 'bogus facts'. A 'bogus fact' would presumably be untrue. Please give an example of one. You haven't yet, though what you repeatedly do is take a small piece of Baughman and then build upon it your own interpretation. You then proceed to say this interpretation( not Baughman's original statement) is flawed. As a method of argument, this is lacking in force. In any case, you seem to be disputing something that's not actually disputed by your own allies. Brains are measurably physically affected by drugs, and also by certain patterns of use and behaviour. I don't think you'd find a neurologist disputing the likelihood that Methylphenidate could alter the configuration of the brain of a person who took it. The brains of London cab-drivers are famously altered (in a physically measurable way) because of the special effort they need to make to memorise 'the Knowledge', a comprehensive grasp of the London streetmap on which they are rigorously tested before they are licensed. It is perhaps the toughest memory test in existence, but I imagine that students in hard subjects, such as sciences or languages, probably undergo similar changes while they are cramming for exams. The point that Ritalin affects the brains of those who take it, thus affecting any comparison for research purposes, hasn't so far as I know been disputed by Ritalin advocates. Why should it be? If the drug didn't affect the operation of the brain, it wouldn't be any use for the purpose to which they assign it. The dispute is a) whether this drug is justified by the ADHD diagnosis b) whether it is an effective or appropriate treatment for it. Its defenders and opponents can both agree that it has an effect, ncessarily physical and chemical, on the brains of recipients. Is it specially unreasonable to suggest that drug companies, as the source of so much funding and general largesse, have an influence on research, on the oprescribing habits of doctors and on the publication of peer-reviewed articles? I doubt you would find many serious scientists or doctors who would dispute that, any more than you would find many naturalists arguing about the tendency of bears to defecate in wooded areas. On a scale of outrageous statements from one to ten, that one doesn't rate very high. My point is that it can't be shown that Baughman's passion has caused him to be either lax or mistaken(or worse) in his science. If it can, my argument on Baughman's value falls. I accept that. But you can't prove Baughman mistaken by exaggerating Baughman's statements, and then attacking him for making exaggerated statements. PH signed in as Clockback ( talk) 15:44, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
fulfilled your desire for a pillar of society dubious about the ADHD diagnosis and its treatment with drugs, as does Susan Greenfield, another distinguished scientist, who happens to be a member of the British House of Lords, an Oxford professor and an acknowledged expert on the brain. ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/health/7093944.stm) Then again there's the Buffalo University study, which has led to questions being asked about Ritalin in the House of Lords. ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/uk/7090011.stm) I don't think anyone's 'reading your mind' about Fred Baughman. It's rather you who are reading his, by taking his statements, making exaggerated claims about them not justified by the text you produce, and then condmening them for being exaggerated. We may not know what you're thinking, but on the other hand we certainly know what you're *saying*, since you keep saying it, and it's presumably the same as what you're thinking. And I keep responding. There is no logical reason why Baughman's status as a propagandist axiomatically discredits his statements as a doctor and scientist. You're entitled to suspect that it might be so, but not to assume that it is so. And your suspicion is of no value by itself. You then have to establish , by example, that your suspicion is correct. And you haven't. Baughman is not unique as a critic. Other doctors are concerned about this (I have spoken privately to British neurologists deeply concerned, but unwilling to speak publicly because of the great power of the ADHD lobby) and I expect many more will be when it's safer to say so. He's unique in that he has single-mindedly devoted himself to the issue, has written a book about it and has an ideal combination of qualifications (Neurologist, Paediatrician) to discuss brain disorders in children. He's also retired, and therefore pretty much immune to the sort of pressures that orthodox conformism can place upon professionals. Plus one of his own children was diagnosed with 'ADHD'. Further, I have spent several hours with him and believe him to be a serious, decent and courageous person, and would count it an act of personal betrayal if I didn't defend him against ad hominem attacks. PH logged in as Clockback ( talk) 17:24, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) Procedurally, Scuro is mostly correct. Writing long screeds in Talk can be tempting, I've been known to do it myself (too often), but, in the end, what this is all about is text in the article. One can argue as convincingly as possible on a Talk page, but who is going to put reliably sourced, NPOV text on the controversy in the article? Does Clockback expect Scuro to do it? Maybe, miracles do happen. Contrary to what Clockback has been claiming, there is recognition on Wikipedia that the controversy exists. The question is not its existence, but its notability, on the balance between positions. My opinion is that the controversies (there exist more than one) belong in this article, in summary form, with detail in the Controversies article. But the exact language for doing that is not necessarily going to be easy to write, and it is crazy to expect Scuro to write it. Given the gap between the sides here, I'm not going to volunteer to write it, I suspect that I'd be wasting my time. But I will look at *edits* of the article made by others and check them. I've been saying for days, now: make *one* change to the article, you who think the article is biased. Make one change that starts to balance out the bias. If you can't get *one* change, you certainly are not going to get dozens. If you can't get specific reference to the controversy deeper in the article, you aren't going to get it in the introduction. And if you can't clean up and make reliably sourced the Controversies article, how can you expect to do it with the main article, where it's harder? (It's harder due to heavier notability requirements.) One step at a time. Or else continue to waste time and energy blowing hot air and parading your imagined position as seen from the future.
I've looked at a few of the sources claimed by Clockback, and while they might be quite adequate as fodder for a newspaper op-ed column, they are primary sources, not reviewed. An example of this would be testimony before a legislative body, which is, quite simply, the opinion or report of the person giving the testimony and *necessarily* has not been reviewed, fact-checked, and edited. All it takes is a friend in high places to get such testimony admitted. It can indeed be relevant, but, alone, it does not establish balance, it doesn't show us the degree to which controversy exists. If we have one specific edit to look at, we can start to consider the nature of the claimed source, in detail, whether or not the source is being interpreted ("original research") or warped, whether or not it is in itself a biased source, and all those other questions. We can't do this with ten claims and twenty sources simultaneously, and it all becomes generalizations about "my opponents" and "wiki truth" and other matters which simply add more heat than light and which are ultimately irrelevant. -- Abd ( talk) 18:00, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
Peter Hitchens, logged in as Clockback ( talk) 10:16, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
IF you are going round in circles, it is because you never actually respond to my arguments or the facts I adduce to support them. Instead you change the subject(see below for the latest attempt to do so), or unilaterally classify my supporting facts as irrelevant, something you couldn't do in a genuinely unbiased forum, which (regrettably) this isn't. I have no special knowledge of Schizophrenia, or the other complaints you mention (though I am aware of controversies about Schizophrenia, and of the changing nature of the official description and treatment of it over the past few decades, and also of the growing suspicion that is often triggered by the abuse of psychotropic drugs, which suggests strongly that (unlike 'ADHD') it has a physical, biochemical existence and cause) and therefore don't attempt to influence the content of Wikipedia pages about them. You only invite me to give my views on them so that you can commence an ad hominem attack against me for my alleged ignorance or naivety, based no doubt upon your own self-awarded profound knowledge of these subjects, which probably even outclasses your special self-awarded understanding of neurology, you know, the one which enables you to dismiss with a wave of the hand the statements of people qualified in neurology but with whom you disagree, thus enabling you to cancel out any knowledge they may have of the subject in which they possess a university degree and some years of experience in medical practice, and you don't.(Or if you do, you've missed many opportunities to say so) Sorry, my dear fellow. I won't oblige, though it's clear that not all 'disorders' share the same positive characteristics, even if they do all share the same negative characteristics of not being diseases. Therefore one can have different views about each of them, and that dismissing one by no means commits me to dismiss them all. I entirely understand why you wish to change the subject - you're losing very badly on this one and of course don't wish to admit that to yourself or to me. There are no objective demonstrable scientific facts in the whole 'ADHD ' article, and you don't mind that at all, because of your partisan position. You match your relaxed complaisance on this rather important failing with a furious rigour over who is qualified to express doubts about this fantastical complaint, and what can be classified as a doubt. So far as I can see, unless someone comes right out and says 'ADHD doesn't exist' that's not a doubt for you. But even in that case I have allies. But they are on the 'fringe', so they don't count. Circular, ain't it? How could I possibly win against such an attitude? I do, however, have some knowledge about 'ADHD' and a disinterested desire to see that the truth is more widely known. Do you, by the way, have an interest in this? If so, would you be so kind as to declare it? I didn't 'agree' that ADHD isn't a disease. I had no need to do so. I have never claimed that it is. I always describe it as a 'complaint' so as to avoid this problem. But lay people, especially worried parents, may in many cases not grasp the distinction between a disease and a 'disorder', and so will accept the glaring medical and scientific nonsequitur that a complaint without physical or biochemical symptoms can be treated with phsyical and bicohemical interventions. The interesting thing about 'ADHD' is that it is treated as if it were a highly specific disease, while being amomng the vaguest and least objective among the disorders. The mismatch is huge. Please deal with this, and the absence of fact from the 'ADHD' article, which I think you have implicitly conceded by failing to supply one.. That way you can stop going round in circles. I am exactly where I have been since the start, sticking to scientific truth, rigorous logic and objective fact. PH logged in as Clockback ( talk) 13:12, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
You write well Clockback, and I admire your tenacity and the amount of time you have spent debating. Unfortunately talk is not a debate, there are no winners or losers, and I don't think anyone has changed someone else's mind. The effort of consensus on the big picture seems fruitless. So I can agree with Abd, if you want change, pick a single point and cite it well. A properly cited point is difficult to remove. All the best. -- scuro ( talk) 22:07, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
You might wish to start a blog or visit a forum if you want to convince people of the merits of your favorite views. `` WP:SOAP -- scuro ( talk) 02:04, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Clockback, the quote isn't mine. It comes directly from the Wiki policy page on Soapboxing. -- scuro ( talk) 12:46, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
per Wikipedia guidelines. So I added it. NuclearWinner ( talk) 22:25, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't disagree that the existence of the disorder is disputed, what I disagree with is that those who dispute it's existence are a noteworthy minority opinion. I can provide citations from major health organizations around the world. None of them speak of the controversy of the diagnosis or ADHD's existence as a disorder. I have yet to see one good citation that clearly claims either premise.-- scuro ( talk) 03:21, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
I understand that there are those who dispute the existance; I think that they perhaps confuse mis-diagnosis, and over-diagnosis, with non-existence. I was initially diagnosed in 1966, when it was called MBD, Minimal Brain Dysfunction, but, as those who didn't treat me, then, said, Honors Engineering students couldn't have that. Now we know better, and a couple of years ago I was started on Strattera. It's made a difference in my life; others who are close to me notice when I've forgotten to take it. htom ( talk) 06:14, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm not confused I simply strive for a more balanced article which represents the true picture of medical opinion about this condition. I have no personal agenda concerning it's existence or non-existence. Clockback has worked hard on a draft re-write of the article to achieve this ( see this link) and I think it would be better if someone with the necessary technical skills could sort out the code such that we could all see the result and evaluate that. The edit that NuclearWinner made to the existing article seemed just fine to me and in the absence of a re-write, wholly necessary. I see the edit war continues and now I must rely on others with more experience and authority than me to sort it out. Miamomimi ( talk) 11:15, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
-- scuro ( talk) 17:06, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) Miamomimi, I've been looking for sources meeting WP:RS to justify more prominent mention of the controversy in the introduction. I have seen no attempt to put text from these sources into the article, just a more diffuse attempt to make the article "balanced" by inserting weasel words. It's an error to think that this is merely the attempt of one side to maintain some dominance in the article. Rather, consider other encyclopedias and sources of information for the general public. Do they mention the controversy? Generally, not. However, there are a few reliable sources that do, I suspect, but the question remains one of balance. That, say, PBS gives some space to Boughman does not mean that there should be *much* in this article, i.e., that every mention of the disorder becomes "alleged disorder." There is an article on Controversy about ADHD that needs improvement, better sourcing and balance, and that article has a lower need for notability for controversy to be described, because the very article is about controversy. Here, the balance issue raises its sometimes difficult head. From what I've been able to find, there are "controversies" about ADHD, but very little wide support for a general condemnation of the diagnosis itself, there are isolated critics, for the most part. But the problem is (1) lack of reliable source, and (2) especially lack of reliable secondary source, for an individual criticism is often a *primary* source. See WP:PRIMARY. A judgment of balance requires secondary (or tertiary) sources, though sometimes if editors can find a consensus, a reasonable balance may be achieved without that. This is where the rampant assumptions of bad faith become truly problematic.
These issues cannot be well addressed in the abstract, and that is exactly what Clockback attempted to do at such length above. With a specific piece of text being introduced or proposed, and a specific proposed source, we can then examine it and see if we can find consensus. Until then there is nothing to do an RFC on, nothing to mediate, nothing to arbitrate, no way to apply policy.
Clockback did set up, contrary to my advice, an attempt to edit the whole article at once. He placed it here in Talk, which was poor procedure. An admin (Clockback had been edit warring with this administrator and came within a hair's breadth of being blocked) moved it to a subpage, but the whole idea was a bad one, wasting his time, and mostly simply inserting weasel words -- but, because of his incompetence and unwillingness to learn -- he was told exactly what to do -- it cannot be easily read. There is no way we can work on the whole article at once if we can't even agree on a single piece of text about the controversy!
There are three current problems with the article: (1) lack of sources for text -- and I've found one place I'll see if I can fix today where the text (a piece offensive to Clockback) is a misleading interpretation of the source -- and (2) Weasel words instead of specific language. It's mostly lazy editing, it's much easier to say "Some disagree" than to actually provide usable sources to show the disagreement and allow readers to check in detail for themselves. -- Abd ( talk) 19:01, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Here is an example of something Clockback put into his draft:
(The draft is at Talk:Attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder/Working Draft)
User:Scuro removed this text in one of his edits, making the draft article visible. I have here edited it to make it visible here, otherwise it would have blanked the entire remainder of this Talk page!
A British government minister, Baroness Royall, recently acknowledged concerns about the absence of a diagnostic test for ADHD during a debate in the House of Lords [4] on 14th November 2007. This discussion followed doubts about the effectiveness of Ritalin as a treatment (and implied doubts about the diagnosis leading to its prescription) raised in a study by the University of Buffalo [5], and pursued by the noted British expert on the human brain, Baroness (Susan) Greenfield [6], Professor of Synaptic Pharmacology at Lincoln College, Oxford, and Director of the Royal Institution. Other critics go a great deal further. Dr Fred Baughman, a paediatric neurologist, attacks the disorder as a 'Fraud' in his book 'The ADHD Fraud' ( ISBN 141206458-9, Trafford Publishing 2005)and asserts that the original statement of the National Institutes of Health Consensus Conference on ADHD on 18th November 1998 said "we do not have an independent valid test for ADHD' ( p.183) but adds (in a footnote on page 259)that this wording was later removed.
Clockback had placed ref tags incorrectly, and a user who tried to tell him described it but didn't know, apparently, how to show wiki markup without causing the markup to be active -- you place everything between <nowiki> and </nowiki> tags. Ref tags should be placed as <ref> before the reference and </ref> after it; Clockback had <ref><ref> preceding the reference text, with no closure tag, with a /, making everything after it invisible.
What was the problem with this text, besides being unable to read it? Well, the speech in the House of Lords is primary source. It is not subject to peer review, nor to any kind of judgment, aside from a very informal judgment of someone inviting the speaker, or the speaker having a seat, as to balance and accuracy. I shudder at the thought that we could, for example, cite a speech by a politician, speaking on the floor of the U.S. Senate, as to fact and balance regarding, say, global warming. Such a speech establishes some level of notability for an opinion, but not necessarily enough to counterbalance a broad consensus for an encyclopedia article. What do doubts about Ritalin have to do with the subject of an ADHD diagnosis? That's a *treatment*, which might be effective, ineffective, or beside the point. Note that we cannot take a source and "imply" something from it, then stating the implication. That's original research, and it is the source of much conflict over articles. As to Fred Baughman, he's got his own article (which could use some work, note that biographies of living people have special requirements, see WP:BLP, and his work definitely should be described at some length in the Controversy about ADHD article. But here, it's *argument*. It may deserve an external link here as well as on the Controversy article, but labeled appropriately. Baughman is a notable critic of the ADHD diagnosis and of its treatment with drugs; his web site, however, is not a reliable source (it is "self-published") for anything except his position on things. Where he gives sources, and they can be verified, then the sources themselves might be usable.
Here is the real problem: it is hard to do good writing on this topic. It requires serious research. The critical material and much else necessary to write well about it is hidden behind the wall of access-for-fee that is common for peer-reviewed journals. Sometimes we can find, say on Baughman's site or somewhere else, quotation from the peer-reviewed articles. That can be used, but with proper notation, i.e., "as quoted by," and even that is shaky. To really do this work, someone would need to have access to a good library or an academic or other account with the journal archives. Someone like Clockback can read Baughman and get fired up and write at length, but to really do what is needed takes a lot more patience and persistence. It's *work*! And it's hard enough for me to sit back and look at what the people with various points of view come up with. I'll leave it to the young people with the time and energy to haunt a medical library to do the footwork. Note that we will generally assume that a clear quotation from a peer-reviewed source that is not *easily* -- i.e., on the web -- verified is properly quoted, that is part of what WP:AGF is about, but there are exceptions, and one might be a claim from an editor who is known to exaggerate and quote out of context. -- Abd ( talk) 19:41, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
This is a complex discussion, it is necessary to be able to read in order to follow it. I am, today, making my first revert, I think, on this article, of unsourced material, I've not been blocking anything. What bullying? Suggesting to a clearly inexperienced but highly opinionated editor that he make one change at a time? I addressed in detail the problems with the sources cited by Clockback. There were many, and densely addressed above. If any editor cares to address one of these, we can review it in detail.
I've told Clockback again and again that I would assist with getting appropriate material into the article, but that I could not necessarily find it myself. Since he was so certain he is right, surely he has reasons for such a strong belief, surely he is relying on reliable sources. Or not, as the case may be. Frankly, it would serve us all if he were not merely bluffing; I'm still waiting for usable edits. As I have time, I'll make some myself, but cleaning up the mess may come first. ADHD. Ever hear of Messies Anonymous? -- Abd ( talk) 05:09, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
This message is to Miamomimi and other editors who are expending time and effort to make the talk page personal. I'd strongly advise that you read Principles of Wikipedia etiquette. Further insults directed in my direction will result in warnings on your talk page followed by appropriate action. Ignorance is no longer an excuse.
In particular: assume good faith WP:FAITH, work towards agreement, argue facts, not personalities, and don't ignore questions. These points all come from the policy page.-- scuro ( talk) 22:01, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
The citations in the main ADHD article support the opening sentence above. If those citations are not satisfactory, type in Neurobiological and adhd to find a wack more. The issue has previously also been discussed in talk.-- scuro ( talk) 05:30, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
-- Abd ( talk) 21:29, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Okay so Attention Deficit Hyperactivity disorder.......is not a disorder....hmmm I'm trying to follow the logic here. They called it a disorder because it's not? I can't believe that I am having this discussion or that it would take further references to change your mind Abd. Wouldn't this fall under the common sense policy?-- scuro ( talk) 05:02, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
I'll add to this:
Barrylb ( talk) 14:45, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
User:Scuro edited the intro phrase to "Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD), or Hyperkinetic Disorder as officially known in the UK (though ADHD is more commonly used), is generally considered to be a neurobehavioural developmental disorder.
So ... ADH Disorder is a disorder. Sure. Why repeat the word? It's bad writing, basically, and it just isn't necessary in the intro. ADHD is more than a developmental disorder, The NINDS article, in the lead, doesn't call it a "developmental disorder." It uses that term later in the article, and it is referring to the disorder in *children.* See above, where I went over the language. I chose "neurobehavioral condition" because condition is, in fact, a term which includes disorders, it is neutral, it does not suppose pathology -- part of the whole controversy --, it doesn't require the weasel words "generally considered" that Scuro inserted, it is justified by substantial sources, though it is not the majority usage.
I changed it back to "neurobehavioral condition," and took out the "generally considered." Does Scuro want to give undue weight to the controversy?
Looking over the intro, I see that it's poorly written in another way. The qualifications about terminology really whack the flow of text, making it hard to read. I'll fix that. -- Abd ( talk) 04:24, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Some have questioned why their sources are not considered the best in this ongoing discussion. Here are the Wiki guidelines. WP:SOURCES
Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy.[4] Reliable sources are necessary both to substantiate material within articles and to give credit to authors and publishers in order to avoid plagiarism and copyright violations. Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in an article and should be appropriate to the claims made: exceptional claims require exceptional sources.
All articles must adhere to Wikipedia's neutrality policy, fairly representing all majority and significant-minority viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in rough proportion to the prominence of each view. Tiny-minority views and fringe theories need not be included, except in articles devoted to them.
In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers. As a rule of thumb, the greater the degree of scrutiny involved in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the evidence and arguments of a particular work, the more reliable it is.
Academic and peer-reviewed publications are highly valued and usually the most reliable sources in areas where they are available, such as history, medicine and science. Material from reliable non-academic sources may also be used in these areas, particularly if they are respected mainstream publications. The appropriateness of any source always depends on the context. Where there is disagreement between sources, their views should be clearly attributed in the text. -- scuro ( talk) 12:28, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
The citation has not been removed. Only the conclusions that were drawn from the citation. This is a debate format, it's not a scientific review for heavens sake. For controversy to exist you must have active debate between majority and minority opinion. You can't draw the conclusion of active debate in the scientific field from this link.-- scuro ( talk) 04:01, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) There is plenty of evidence that there is notable controversy. If any editor thinks not, then I'd suggest that the editor read WP:AfD and follow the process, it *will* make a decision; my guess is that it would be a "lively discussion" and that consensus would be to Keep. (And if the closing admin decides to delete the article, I'm sure there would be a Deletion Review, and if that fails, that this would go to further process.). So, please, unless you've got the willingness to back it up with process, stop claiming that controversy isn't notable. However, there does remain the question of balance. It is a reasonable position that it does not belong in the introduction; however, putting it there means that we don't need to go over the rest of the article with a fine-tooth comb, all at once.
The fact is that the introduction is a mess, see below for part of the problem, about the references. The main problem is that a read who doesn't know what ADHD is likely to be quite confused by the intro. I didn't make this up, this comment has been made before by at least one other. It's obvious. One of the editors, here, quoted a definition of ADHD that was less controversial than what we had, was clear and to the point, far better than what we have there now. Our present intro is longer than most, more complicated than most. With controversial subjects, intros are often very brief because it is easier to find consensus on a brief statement than on more complex ones. -- Abd ( talk) 16:43, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
(edit conflict with above) I've become convinced that the controversy over ADHD warrants some mention in the introduction. It should be fleshed out deeper in the article. Procedurally, it might have been better to lay out the foundation for this in the article, deeper in, in detail, *then* put this in the intro. But someone else put the reference in, with much stronger language about controversy. So I reworked it. After all this is a project involving the cooperation of editors. I came up with this.
The first sentence is an introduction to the second. The "some view" is a summary of the "For" argument in the debate in the source, and there are several noted authors mentioned there, justifying "some." Words that in other contexts would be "weasel words" are, in an introduction, if substantiated -- and particularly if the detail exists deeper in the article, simply a summary, what an introduction is supposed to be.
User:Scuro reverted me, I reverted it back, for the reasons detailed above. (I had incorrectly thought he had totally removed the second part, because of how his edit summary read, but, in fact, he had appended it to the previous paragraph, where it did not belong, it's not clearly connected enough.) Instead of cutting out this text, I'd suggest that Scuro, if he still doesn't like it, discuss improvement.
Note that this is a very small introduction of controversy into this article, and it refers to a reliable source that gives some good summary of the controversy. It was a source like this that I'd been asking for. There is now some *flesh* to "some". Further, "some view" here was that "some view the diagnosis as controversial." That is quite different from "some view the diagnosis as a fraud, a perversion of the medical profession, etc." There is, without any doubt, substantial controversy over various aspects of ADHD. The evidence is fairly strong that there is some genetic basis, though I have not read the critics' responses to that. (It's amazing how little meat there is in some criticism, it seems the most emotional aspects, the "wining and dining" of researchers and medical bureaucrats by the greedy drug industry, the armies of toddlers getting drenched with powerful drugs, gets the bulk of the argument.) But what this means is far from clear. The field is in flux, some claim that there are physical markers, others don't see that and state that there are no physical signs. That's controversy. That is, there is controversy that is *not* all "Psychiatrists are Satan incarnate." There is sober criticism and also recognition by those who claim physical causes that it is not proven yet. -- Abd ( talk) 04:05, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Well it's nice that you made up your mind Abd...and I may grant you the point that certain things that fall under the wide umbrella of the topic of ADHD may be controversial but I have seen the controversial flag waved so many times with regards to ADHD that I have become conditioned to be skeptical. If the diagnosis is so obviously controversial where is the beef? How many times do I have to ask for a reliable source before someone answers me? Wikipedia policy states that you should answer other editors questions. If you don't have an answer for a question you should respond, "I don't know" or "I can't find it". To ignore the question is disingenuous. Perhaps the diagnosis isn't controversial nor is the disorder itself. What then is controversial? Spell it out for us with reliable references that use the word controversy or controversial. Do you think that is too much of a demand? I can find sources that describe ECT as controversial. -- scuro ( talk) 04:40, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
If anyone doubts the existence of a controversy I have found news articles to back that up:
A quote from an interviewee: "There is controversy about ADHD, I believe, partly because we are using a medication to treat the disorder, and people find that to be of concern."
Title: "Controversy continues over treatment of ADHD"
From the introduction: "Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, or ADHD, is one of the most controversial topics in kid's health today."
Federal Opposition health spokesperson: "Given the controversy surrounding ADHD..." Barrylb ( talk) 05:13, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Here are two references from the scientific community:
From the abstract: "ADHD and its treatment have remained controversial"
From the introduction: "We believe that the current controversy about diagnosis and management of these children's symptoms arises from the divergent perspectives of developmentally and non-developmentally minded professionals"
Barrylb ( talk) 10:01, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
The first reference has some beef. It's a start. Thank you. More later.-- scuro ( talk) 13:01, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
To Barrylb. Good luck arguing with these chaps. But if you adduced Einstein, Freud and Newton, with supporting links, to say that there was controversy about 'ADHD', you'd be told that somehow or other it didn't count. They say so, you see. Or at least one of them does. So that's settled. And you'd be reverted, so that you could either have an edit war , and be warned off for being bad, (somehow those who repeatedly revert to the original version never run into trouble for doing this, only those who wish to make changes. I'm unable to see quite why) or you have to give up. The same noble rigour, alas, is not applied to the article itself, packed as it is with unsupported or contentious assertions presented as facts, with pseudoscientific jargon, and by the use of the passive voice which is disapproved of in Wikipedia under the 'weasel words' rules. I've appealed for outside arbitration on this and I urge you to join me. I've also attempted to mark various contentious points with 'citation needed' marks, but my inadequate computer skills have produced varying results. Peter Hitchens, logged in as Clockback ( talk) 14:16, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
There appears to be quite a lot of information in a 2006 book Critical New Perspectives on ADHD [8]. I haven't fully looked through it yet, but on page 178 the chapter's author says: "it should be pointed out that in Sweden a heated debate concerning the status of the diagnosis ADHD/DAMP has been going on for many years. The debate has been polarised, with some arguing that this syndrome cannot be considered an identifiable and verifiable condition at all, while others argue that this is one of the most significant health problems of our time." I equate that with controversy. Barrylb ( talk) 15:56, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
In another 2007 book The Other Side of ADHD: Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder Exposed and Explained [9] the author says (on page 5) "there is widespread disagreement about whether it exists at all, and whether it is, in fact, a valid diagnostic category. Although its advocates are prone to describing it in certain terms, there has rarely been so much uncertainty and controversy about a diagnosis...". Barrylb ( talk) 16:56, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
If, and by your own admisssion, "ADHD seems too attract social critics like no other topic does", it seems to me that that warrants a good discussion of the controversy in the article. I have many doctors in my family, and they all think very poorly about the whole ADHD business. It just doesn't seem reasonable to me to contend that the controversy is so scant. I think Clockback is right here. Scuro needs to stop being so arrogant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.183.153.23 ( talk) 06:19, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Another reference:
From Introduction: "Attention Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) is a controversial syndrome. Debate has raged in Australia and other countries over the condition itself, its prevalence and, in particular, over the use of medication to treat ADHD." Barrylb ( talk) 13:14, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Are not citations and citation requests to be avoided in the intro? They should be in the main body of the article where the points are touched upon. -- scuro ( talk) 16:53, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
If claims in the introduction repeat sourced claims in the article, then references are not required in the intro. However, often editors will try to summarize what is in the article, and summarization can introduce POV bias. If the summarization is new, i.e, not explicitly made deeper in the article it must be sourced unless it is consensus that the summary is fair. Scuro here is focusing on the presence or absence of citations, when the fundamental point is that the text must be sourced. If Scuro or any editor feels that a citation tag in the intro isn't necessary because the material is elsewhere in the article, he is certainly welcome to move the tag, or to delete it if the deeper material is properly referenced. What Scuro is missing, apparently, is that placing a cn tag is a cooperative way to begin to resolve issues with the article, it avoids edit warring.
I would really encourage Scuro to read the piece of guideline that he quoted carefully. "editorial consensus." If he starts to actively seek that consensus, instead of simply insisting on his POV, we will make progress. This is not to deny that he has shown some willingness to compromise, he has. But other actions are contentious and not likely to resolve *our* controversy. -- Abd ( talk) 16:56, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
I will no longer respond to Abds' posts until he stops his personal judgments of other editors. Talk is to focus on content. He makes assumptions, places blame, reads minds.... it is all negative, against wiki policy and I will no longer respond until I see a change in his behaviour. -- scuro ( talk) 18:08, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
From the Oxford dictionary
"A prolonged argument or dispute. esp. when conducted publicly and over a matter of opinion."
Within wikipedia the term would also have to mean that both sides of argument would have to be notable enough to qualify for majority and minority opinion. For instance Holocaust deniners wouldn't be considered minority or majority opinion in a "final solution" article. You would have to be able to identify the minority opinion. Who or what group is actually in debate and considered noteworthy enough.
In summary for the addition of the word controversy into an article you would want:
Without qualifiers vertually any topic can be shown to be controversial.
"A prolonged argument or dispute. esp. when conducted publicly and over a matter of opinion."
There is a lot of that over ADHD. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
124.183.153.23 (
talk) 06:26, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Doesn't the assertion above (about what controversy is )just show where the problem lies? Why should this user be able to rule on what 'controversy' is, above and beyond the dictionary definition? Whence comes his authority to do so? (If he wants a controversy about controversy, let's open a Wikipedia article on 'Controversy' and perhaps he can engage himself in a dispute about whether there is any controversy about controversy. Hours of harmless fun might ensue). Having reproduced the dictionary definition, he must have observed that this clearly and unambiguously shows that there is a controversy over 'ADHD'. So he has come up with a definition of his own that might conceivably be used to claim that there is not. He may have his opinions on the matter, but these do not entitle him to remove a truthful and accurate statement from the entry, again and again, demanding a rigour in critics and sceptics of 'ADHD' which is wholly inconsistent with the lack of rigour in the article he so manfully defends against those sceptics. He should just admit that there is a controversy, and stop reverting edits which make this clear. His energies would be far better devoted to cleaning up the woeful article about 'ADHD', still crammed with pseudoscientific assertions and weasel words. A question to an expert. Several different users have separately made changes to this article ( all of the same kind and with the same intent, namely to ensure that it declares prominently that the diagnosis of 'ADHD' is controversial) and all have separately been reverted. If those users combined, agreed on a text and references for controversy, and posted it, and it was then reverted, could they each *separately* re-revert it without breaching the rules? And would anyone else be within the rules to re-re-revert it more than the permissible number of times, in this case? Just asking. Peter Hitchens, logged in as Clockback ( talk) 10:35, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
BY the way (let's not get it mixed up with the main argument) isn't the introduction of a comparison with 'Holocaust Deniers' wholly outrageous and completely disgraceful? First: There is enormous objective evidence of the Holocaust, its planning and its operation, from documents, corroborated witnesses , survivors, trials of perpetrators, surviving installations. Those who deny that it took place are delusional and politically motivated, as well as being morally deficient. Second, there is no such objective evidence of the existence of 'ADHD', which remains a matter of opinion without any scientific test to determine its presence in any human body. thus permitting reasonable people to question its existence. Third, the use of the comparison itself is not merely wholly unjustified by the context, but stinks of the lowest form of ad hominem attack. If 'official warnings' are being handed out, perhaps the author of this illegitimate and baseless remark might be served with one. I argue hard, and don't at all mind when people argue hard back, but this is beyond the limits. PH signed in as Clockback ( talk) 10:46, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
PH signed in as Clockback ( talk) 14:14, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
CB, please stick to the topic at hand. The issue is what exactly is the controversy? Can you define it, and can a consensus of editors agree with your definition? You wouldn't require my input for that consensus to stick. I have given a defintion. You could remove the Dr. Phil reference and it would still hold true: "While no scientific body or international health institution believes that ADHD is a controversial disorder, many social critics and some religious groups, Scientologists in particular, believe that ADHD is controversial." Please don't make this an issue about personalities and how hard this is for you.-- scuro ( talk) 16:53, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Want to be really disruptive? Tell others to stop expressing what they feel. - do that or judge them and their thought processes.-- scuro ( talk) 20:08, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Can't hang about to chat folks but I've made an edit that I think will avoid all this argument. See article history and my edit. Miamomimi ( talk) 15:08, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Well, it doesn't sound reasonable to me. 'ADHD' is being rpeatedly and mistakenly compared with established medical or scientific theories. It isn't one. It is (and will one of you please respond to this point just once?) an unproven theory without any objective evidence for its existence, and therefore not subject to disproof. It simply does not deserve to be treated as if it is an established fact under attack by a dubious minority of crackpots. It is fashionable among doctors, but then so (for example) was a frenzy for pre-frontal leucotomy in the middle of the 20th century. That was a 'generally accepted opinion' of its time, and it was flat wrong. (So was the belief, 24 years ago, that SIDS was best prevented by lying baies on their fronts, now reversed by 180 degrees) I have no doubt that its contemporary critics were dismissed as 'fringe' and 'cranks' by the fashionable majority of the time. What other method could they use, given that their favoured treatment had no objective justification or decent science behind it? . The point about this is that the level of acceptance accorded to an unproven theory carries no weight in evaluating its rightness. This is, as contributors repeatedly stress, an encyclopaedia. Its duty is not to reflect passing fashion but to seek the truth. The truth is very often reached through controversy. The controversy about 'ADHD' has barely begun, and it is not for Wikipedia to make any presumptions about how it will end. Those who suppress or seek to minimise the existence of that controversy do a disservice to truth. Its fashionableness establishes nothing objective. The British popular (and unpopular) press is full of articles casting doubt on its existence (by no means all of them written by me) , if that counts, and I have cited the remarks of Terence Kealey and other scientists casting doubt on the diagnosis, including Baroness Greenfield's question in the House of Lords and the recent Buffalo University study showing that the most popular 'treatment' for 'ADHD' is of dubious effect. The Second World War analogy is absurd. That war is over, and now know the true significance of events that was unclear at the time, and often wrongly evaluated. What some users seek to do (in tune with their clinging to this subjective concept of 'ADHD', as it happens) is to invent a subjective definition of 'controversy' which just happens to rule out the kind of controversy that there actually is. It's so blatantly self-serving I'm amazed they have the nerve. Either there's an argument or there isn't. there is. The article should say so clearly and I think I can state with confidence that, sooner or later, it will. The reason certain persons are so anxious to suppress this incontestable truth is that they themselves suspect in their hearts that 'ADHD' is false, and fear greatly the rational scientific examination which must eventually overtake it. Peter Hitchens, signed in as Clockback ( talk) 17:25, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
It does already state the best summary that has been found, so far, in reliable source, and it points the reader to the details. That Mr. Hitchens continues to write as if nothing has been done, as if his complaints have been ignored, says little about the actual situation. It's unfortunate. Mr. Hitchens then proceeds to make some uncivil comments about the alleged motives of disagreeing editors. That, too, is unfortunate.
The quotation, with the three dots in the middle clearly indicating an excision( which the reader can check a few lines above) , removes nothing of significance and does not distort the meaning. Once again, my point is not answered. Why is there no objective evidence for the existence of ADHD'? Why, in the absence of such evidence, is it illegitimate to point out in the opening of the entry, the truth, that it thwerefore axiomatically remains a contentious, unproven theory? Doesn't Wikipedia etiquette oblige the 'ADHD' police to respond to these questions? PH signed in as
Clockback (
talk) 09:57, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
My 'behaviour' is to insist that this is an encyclopaedia of fact, rather than of opinion and to continue to defend this position on this page in the hope of obtaining a sensible compromise.. I am happy to defend this behaviour to any disinterested person. I long for 'Scuro' take the 'further action' which he has repeatedly threatened since I began this discussion, and I have frequently begged him to take it, on this page. Yet he never has. I do wish he would get on with it. PH, logged in as Clockback ( talk) 13:21, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Barrylb removed some links with the summary, "cleaning out some external link rubbish." I only looked at one of these links, and it didn't seem to be, literally, "rubbish," but it might have been redundant or may have had some objectionable characteristic not obvious to me in my momentary examination. I'm placing here all links removed, and any editor may object to the removal individually, plus Barrylb or another editor may explain why it was removed. We may also want to categorize external links; that can be useful especially if a website expresses some POV, but also for other reasons.
-- Abd ( talk) 19:04, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Abd, why do you repeatedly remove the term "developmental disorder" out of the intro? It is a developmental disorder and the term should be in the first sentence or two for the reader. Are we advocating that we should remove pertinent information? -- scuro ( talk) 04:49, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
You will find ADHD in this list developmental disorder -- scuro ( talk) 05:20, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
User:Scuro, I mention in an insertion above, put back the old developmental disorder language in the intro, giving the summary, "(an editor has eliminated the term developmental disorder - it is being restored...see the NINDS citation, more citations can be gathered in needed.)" diff I changed it back, explaining in Talk why. Without engaging in discussion, Scuro reverted it, with the summary, "(Nothwithstanding the condition/disorder mean two different things, the edit was made to include the term "developmental disorder"..ADHD is a DD... references follow the phrase.)" diff
Yes, ADHD is commonly described as a Developmental disorder, i.e., "at some stage in a child's development." However, the intro also acknowledges that not all ADHD is due to inheritance, and not all onset is in childhood. Or should we take out "typically presents in childhood"?
The introduction should have the most general and uncontroversial *definition* of the term. There is probably already too much in there, but one thing at a time!
I replaced the new language with the simple "condition," and continued to clean up the intro. I took out the reference to British terminology, it's enough to have the British term there, and whether or not Hyperkinetic Disorder or ADHD is more common in Britain is surely not worthy of mention in the introduction, it's a tiny detail.
The NINDS citation, which is the one Scuro is apparently referring to, does not choose to mention developmental disorder in its introductory paragraph. And the NINDS article is focusing on children, so, of course, it is going to mention "developmental disorder" in the body.
My goal with the introduction at this point is to keep it very simple until the rest of the article is cleaned up, as well as the article Attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder: controversies. I have no conclusion in mind as to how much of the controversy should be explicitly described in this article, how much it should be reflected in the language of the introduction. For now, I'm assuming that this article need not bow to the controversy with every sentence and paragraph, but, of course, with supplied reliable source to the contrary .... that might change. -- Abd ( talk) 05:00, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
"Accuracy"? This is not a question of accuracy, it is question of the best language for the introduction. There is no dispute -- by me -- over ADHD being a developmental disorder. It is. Scuro managed to find a source where DD is mentioned in the opening line. As against the first three citations actually in the article, two of which don't mention it *at all*, and one of which only mentions it in the last paragraph. Plus, uh, is that supposed to be a "reliable source"? -- Abd ( talk) 05:33, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Plus, uh, is that supposed to be a "reliable source"? - uh...you are joking?-- scuro ( talk) 05:53, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
"There are diverse views regarding the existence of ADHD as a single syndrome" this sentence really bites since no one in the field really considers that the disorder is a single syndrome. There appears to be at least two types of ADHD that can be caused by different things. The term used most often to describe ADHD is that it is a heterogeneous disorder.-- scuro ( talk) 03:33, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I cleaned up the Treatment section a bit, making text conform more closely to source. Source was secondary, the BBC, reporting the results of an apparently as-yet unpublished study. Even though the BBC calls the study "significant," or "influential," it can hardly be yet influential if it hasn't been peer-reviewed and publish. This might simply be bad journalism, it happens, I've seen press reports of a study prior to publication and the actual study turned out to be quite different. So I tightened this up and removed POV language from it, moving toward exact quotation as reported in the article, and I attributed it to the BBC.
However, this section was and still is badly imbalanced. Ironically, given present complaints about this article, it is imbalanced toward criticism. Treatment by drugs is only presented as something being now under doubt and suspicion. Maybe it will become so, but the status quo is that millions are being prescribed drugs by physicians who believe them effective, rightly or wrongly. There is no doubt in my mind that the negative study results belong there (better, when we have the actual article, that they conform to the actual study, not to a newspaper account), but we should also have reports of the effectiveness of drug treatment. What's the evidence for that? Is there any? (I think there is, indeed, there has to be *something* shown about effectiveness for drugs to get approval, usually. It might be misleading, it might be wrong, but it must exist. Further, "long-term effectiveness" is not the only issue. Something that is effective short-term may still be quite valuable. I'd need to see the actual study reported, *in detail* before having an opinion, the BBC article is way too sketchy. Anyone got a reference to the article? Has it been published yet? Other reports on it?
How is ADHD treated with drugs? Dosage? (For example, dosages of stimulant medication for ADHD are typically quite small; in fact, strong response to a very small dose of stimulants is sometimes used as part of the diagnosis of ADHD.) What drigs? (Someone had modified the quotation to include Adderall, which was not in the orignal article. Somebody wasn't careful about source, I suspect that someone came along and just read this article and said, hey, Adderall is used too, and tossed it in....
This article once had Good Article status, it's lost it. Perhaps because so many editors were focusing on maintaining their own POV? Wikipedia needs editors who understand NPOV and who greatly value it. We will each have our own POV and that can help us to recognize BS from the other side. Editors who are truly neutral typically don't have the motivation to stick with an article and protect it from POV and other poor edits. So, POV editors, and we have a few, you are needed here. Just, please, try to understand and respect the crucial importance to the encyclopedia project of Neutral Point of View in articles. -- Abd ( talk) 18:17, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I reverted the following edit from the introduction.
I looked at the source and saw nothing like what was in the intro. It may be on some subpage. References should be directly to the page needed. If a printed source, page numbers should be included.
The text I removed is disputatious and is clearly an opinion presenting a POV (reliable sources may report POVs, they do not therefore become fact other than that the quoted person holds the POV). Further, its placement in the introduction, immediately after the introductory definition, is radically out of balance. The introduction should claim nothing that is not claimed, in detail and with references, in the body of the article, and, where it summarizes, as it usually should, the summary should not imbalance the presentation. We already have in the introduction a general reference to the controversy. We cannot justify more than that at this time, and, in fact, even that could possibly be too much -- certainly Scuro has expressed displeasure with it, and an anonymous IP editor tried to take it out. Until something better comes along, it's the best we can do.
(The present introduction is not in good shape this way, but it doesn't get better by having inappropriate, improperly sourced material added to it.)
What with Scuro coming in from one side and Clockback from the other, it may become difficult to maintain the article as neutral; however, I assume that other editors will step in, they are needed. -- Abd ( talk) 18:35, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Wonderful. Just a little test, and the self-appointed guardians of this page ( who of course have no point of view) failed it exactly as I thought they would. Within three minutes -three minutes - of this edit being saved it was needlessly revised, within two hours it was unjustifiably reverted. No surprise there. The vigour and rigour with which these people reject anything casting doubt on this pseudo-scientific, evidence-free fantasy is, as I have pointed out before, to be compared with the relaxed view they take of unjustified assertions and passive voice in the entry as it stands. And yet my addition contains an incontrovertible statement of fact which I have made on this page repeatedly without challenge (there is no objective diagnosis - if this is true, how can you in all conscience revert it? If it is not true, where is your evidence of its untruth?) with a qualification made repeatedly by Scuro himself(this is the case with all disorders)which is also presumably true(I take Scuro's word for it) so likewise cannot be reverted without the production of evidence to the contrary.All of this was backed up by a quotation(culled as it happens from the 'Controversy on ADHD' entry) from a pro-ADHD doctor admitting that they don't actually know what 'ADHD' is. So why was this reverted? It's apparently not a point of view to say that ADHD exists, without evidence, ( statement which is entirely a matter of opinion) but it mysteriously *is* a point of view to say that there's no evidence for its existence ( a statement which is incontrovertibly true whatever your opinion).We already know that we are not allowed to say there is a controversy about 'ADHD' even though there's a Wikipedia article about that controversy and a discussion about that controversy has now lasted more than a week on this page without any sign of coming to an end yet. There is no equivalence between my persistent attempts to add a fact or two to the entry and the page's self-appointed guardians' persistent efforts to prevent me from doing so. However, I share Abd's wish that others will step in. As many as possible please. It is comical, the way the guardians of this page cannot see the weakness in their position, and I find it increasingly funny to watch them at it. PH, logged in as Clockback ( talk) 21:58, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
This section is a mess. The section title is a hodgepodge. It's full of unsourced statements, or, alternatively, the citation tags are incorrect, the later source in the article covers the earlier claims, which it might. It's not quick and easy to find out. The last source is the U.S. Census. Uh, what publication, what page? Do we read the thousands of pages to find out? Anyone care to work on it? -- Abd ( talk) 03:10, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:MEDMOS#Diseases.2Fdisorders.2Fsyndromes -- scuro ( talk) 05:42, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
This is, indeed, a useful resource. The present article isn't organized as suggested, it seems to me. However, a reorganization in the presence of an edit war isn't the most useful task to be taken first. Looking at this, the first thing I was struck with was "But what if an editor doesn't agree that this is a disease?" However, the guideline actually covers that. ADHD, no matter how we slice it, is a "syndrome," a pattern of symptoms. Then comes "classification," and the old practice, the "early nosological efforts grouped diseases by their symptoms, whereas modern systems (e.g. SNOMED) focus on grouping diseases by the anatomy and etiology involved." However, with some disorders or conditions, the etiology is unknown. Generally, the anatomy is known: with ADHD, the "anatomy" is the nervous system, the manager and mechanism of behavior, and while there may be some endocrine involvement, that would only be relevant insofar as it affects the function of the nervous system. Hence ADHD is "neurological." This is offensive to the critics, I'd suggest, because they think of neurology as only relating to observable anatomic differences, whereas, in fact, the brain is extraordinarily complex, and microstructure, only recently beginning to be appreciated, is involved. Only recently, for example, has it become possible to image how neurons are interconnected, more than a synapse or a few at a time. Behavior is encoded, apparently, in the *pattern* of interconnections, and the complexity of this is staggering, we may be a long way from being able to observe the interconnection patterns and related this to a behavioral syndrome. Or not. Sometimes discoveries come in a surprising way.
I've been seeing this in a number of controversial articles lately. The battle is over what definitions of words are controlling. While that is an issue of political significance, and is not necessarily easy to resolve, it is *impossible* to resolve if the parties don't even recognize the problem: each group is using a different definition of the terms of the controversy. Different definitions, with this article and its disputes, are used for "disorder," "neurology," "objective," and, on an even deeper level, "encyclopedia" and "truth." It is not uncommon that readers with a strong Point of View get fired up enough to start editing because they want an article to reflect the "truth." This can be useful, in fact; however, as has been pointed out many times, it is not the function of an encyclopedia to present the "truth." This comes, indeed, as a great shock to some -- but who gets to decide what the function is? Wikipedia is owned by the WikiMedia Foundation (WMF) and, ultimately, *it* decides. Originally it was Jimbo Wales. The *operational* definition of who gets to decide has been mostly transferred to the user community, and, when push comes to shove, to the Arbitration Committee. The Arbitration Committee is something to watch, I spend a good portion of my time on this site doing exactly that. Suffice it to say that repeatedly, woven through the policies (which are strong, relatively fixed) and guidelines (which are weaker) and essays (which are often just the opinion of one or a few editors), is the claim that "truth" isn't an argument for putting text into an article, rather, "verifiability" is. The encyclopedia isn't about truth, it is about knowledge. And, yes, "knowledge" can be mistaken, but the place to correct it isn't here, generally, but in the world of science and scholarship and, sometimes, politics.
Now, is this violated? Often. Articles are created by writers who frequently just write what their opinion -- or knowledge -- indicates, and these articles will frequently be very poorly sourced, even when they are otherwise accurate and well-written; in fact, if the article is written by an expert, lack of sources can be extreme. Without sources, there is little verifiability. Eventually, if people care about the article, it will start to attract editors who source it. Or correct it, with or without sources. When controversy appears, battles between editors can rage for a time. Ultimately, though, articles will tend to settle on what is widely considered "NPOV," or Neutral Point of View, and any other condition is a violation of policy, and editors who strongly insist on their own POV find themselves excluded from the process. But it is also understood that NPOV articles do not spring, lotus-born, from the virtual pen of fully-enlightened editors. That is, usually not! Nobody is punished merely for putting their point of view into an article; rather sanctions (Wikipedia, theoretically, never punishes, and administrators who do attempt to punish actually can lose their privileges) are applied for failure to respect community process, never merely for holding or expressing some point of view -- unless it's thoroughly offensive (such as making racist comments in an inflammatory way). -- Abd ( talk) 23:46, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
It's the intro that needs work. The intro needs to reflect all the major sections, as suggested in the MoS. Some are missing!! When I am finally not expending energy debating wiki policy, or asking editors to focus on content, my attention will turn to this task.-- scuro ( talk) 00:15, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Once again legitimate minor changes to the article are reverted with fantastic zeal, whereas the article's vast, phantasmal claims are allowed to stand unchallenged. What references did the above passages need? The 'historical' summary of 'ADHD' is available in the entry, and clearly shows that the alleged complaint has at different times been associated with identifiable brain damage, and also not associated with it. This is clearly contradictory to anyone not befogged with partiality. As for methylphenidate and the amphetamines aiding concentration in anyone who takes them, the pro'ADHD' lobby can produce reams of stuff showing that these drugs aid concentration in alleged 'ADHD' patients. Until it can demonstrate a physical difference between 'ADHD' patients and normal human beings, its own research establishes this axiomatically. Mountains of it. Since I cannot wean 'Scuro' off his tedious 'Where's the beef?' question, which he thinks so potent, I shall redirect it at him. Maybe, in that case, he will finally grasp what it is I am about. "Where is your beef, Mr Scuro? Where is your objective proof of the existence of ADHD?" He never answers this question, and cannot. And in his failure to answer it lies his inability to understand my very simple and many times repeated point, which Scuro and his allies seek to lose in a squabble about procedure which has nothing to do with it (if it had, they would long ago have pinned me to the wall by an appeal to arbitration, which they dare not make). This article concerns a speculative and contentious diagnosis, not an established fact. The use of technical words such as 'syndrome' and 'disorder' may well tell experts that 'ADHD' is a construct without objective evidence for its existence. But lay readers, who are, regrettably, impressed by long words, and who are medically ill-informed, cannot glean this information from the article. That is why it is necessary for it to be stated in clear English that the diagnosis is contentious. If a parent wants to drug his or her son with potent psychotropics on the say-so of a social worker and a questionnaire, and without physical evidence of any illness, then I suppose he or she has the right to do so, sort of. But what if he or she doesn't realise that this is what is actually going on, as I suspect is the case with many such parents? By the way, is this really the place for user testimonials for methylphenidate? I am glad of these clear declarations of interest, but surely such stuff is best sent straight to the manufacturers, who can use it in their publicity? By the way , the above passage: "However, with some disorders or conditions, the etiology is unknown. Generally, the anatomy is known: with ADHD, the "anatomy" is the nervous system, the manager and mechanism of behavior, and while there may be some endocrine involvement, that would only be relevant insofar as it affects the function of the nervous system. Hence ADHD is "neurological." seems to me to be gibberish. What does the 'hence' refer to? PH signed in as Clockback ( talk) 09:52, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Your questions have all been answered long ago, you choose to ignore this. But you ask again...over and over...It's getting silly really. The "beef" is suitable citations which have been supplied by all the other editors and which you have not offered any for, except from that long retired Neurologist and Scientology medical expert Fred Baughman. The cited opinion of the scientific community trumps your uncited opinion on Wikipedia. But you know this also. It's really all about WP:SOAPBOXing isn't it?-- scuro ( talk) 12:46, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
The above user (Scuro) tells me that my questions have been 'answered over and over again'. I am not aware of any answer to my request for an objective proof of the existence of 'ADHD', or for details of an objective test for its presence or absence in the human body. Can he please direct me to them? There is also a confusion above about my aim and purpose. I have offered not only Baughman, but also Kealey and Greenfield, as evidences of *controversy*, the only fact I wish to establish on the entry. My sub-argument about the existence of 'ADHD' is here only because I am constantly told that there cannot be controversy about it its existence because this is a settled matter. But it demonstrably isn't, or Scuro et al would be able to provide objective proofs of existence rather than the mountain-ranges of baseless and contradictory assertions which they constantly provide instead. I have advanced nobody and nothing at all in pursuit of my statement that there is no proof for the objective existence of 'ADHD'. I don't want to insert this statement in the article, though I believe it to be true. I have never sought to do so. I merely seek to stop the supporters of this concept acting and writing as if this unproven theory were a settled fact, and to accept the axiomatic conclusion that the diagnosis is contentious ( and the language changes in the rest of the article which logically follow from that). That is what I sought at the beginning. It is what I still seek. Thus the argument about the lack of proof for 'ADHD', though not intended for the article, goes right to the heart of the question. As I keep explaining, I cannot prove a negative. Nobody can. It is up to the supporters of the phantasm to prove its objective existence. I do not need to prove its non-existence, as I (and the rest of the human race) await any evidence of its existence. When will Scuro etc grasp this? I ask my questions 'over and over' precisely because the supporters of the ADHD fantasy don't answer them. Gosh, I am so patient and polite compared with my opponents. By the way, yes, Dr Baughman is retired, and may have co-operated with Scientologists. So what? Is this legitimate argument or ad hominem tripe? Easy. It is the latter. The one is not his fault ( we all get old and retire if we live long enough, and are often none the worse for it) and the second doesn't alter the fact that he has forgotten more about neurology than Scuro and his supporters ever knew. It's been nteresting to watch a non-neurologist repeatedly over-ruling a college-qualified professional neurologist on what 'neurology' means. I have only not reverted the request for a citation on the 'neuro' part of 'neurobehavioural' out of respect for the rules. None of the references provides any evidence for a neurological component in 'ADHD'. PH, logged in as Clockback ( talk) 14:47, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
That would be a leading question CB....so I will wait until you can frame a proper question. In reading your opinion above it appears that you are under the false assumption that the research evidence that scientists used to make the case that ADHD exists, is not repeatable. I assure you that it is.-- scuro ( talk) 05:04, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Would Scuro please supply any research evidence that 'ADHD' has an objective existence. I am aware of none. A 'leading question' is one employed by a lawyer, trying to guide one of his own witnesses into saying what he wants him to say. I am in no position to ask Scuro such a question. I repeat, why not just admit that there is no objective evidence for the existence of 'ADHD'? It would make things so much easier. PH, logged in as Clockback ( talk) 10:02, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't believe your definition is correct and the questions no longer are seeking information for the purpose of communication and understanding. This attempt at conciliation is looking to be more and more like a waste of time. -- scuro ( talk) 12:40, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
It doesn't really matter whether he believes me or not. That is what 'leading question ' means, and such questions are disallowed in English courts ( and I suspect US, Canadian, Australian and NZ courts as well). What else could it mean? Why else would it be wrong? He asked for single, clear questions. I provided one. 'Scuro' dodged it, because to answer it would be to admit that I have been right all along, and there is no scientific proof for the existence of 'ADHD'. If time is being wasted, it isn't being wasted by me. I have stuck rigorously and patiently to the same position from the start (In the absence of objective proof for the existence of 'ADHD' its existence is axiomatically a controversial and contentious subject), and await only a recognition of the facts I state, or a refutation of them .Once that is achieved, we can proceed to the next stage. So long as it is not achieved, there is no basis for conciliation. Either there is objective proof for the existence of 'ADHD' or there is not. It is no good trying to redefine 'proof' so as to include things that are not 'proof' ( a standard tactic of 'Scuro' when in difficulties is to re-engineer the English language, so that controversy doesn't mean 'controversy' , for instance, and 'neurological' doesn't mean 'neurological' but spychological or behavioural ). Proof is proof. Scuro cannot redfeine that. If there is proof, it can be produced. If there isn't, it can't. As , despite countless requests by me for it to be produced, nobody has produced it, I think the disinterested reader would be justified in copnclusing that there isn't any. PH, logged in as Clockback ( talk) 11:46, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
You're wrong about leading questions (they can improperly be used to attempt to lead another witness) and your wrong about clear questions. You are also going to great lengths to twist things into a pretzel like form. I'll be around when a serious attempt at communication wafts in the wind again.-- scuro ( talk) 16:11, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
The references used to support this claim are a) a standard unsupported assertion of the existence of ADHD, replete with contradictory 'historical' references many of them pertaining to instances of known brain damage, and second supposed research into brain patterns of ADHD patients in which it is not stated whether those scanned had been taking medication before the scan ( a rather more likely reason than 'ADHD' for their brains to be different from normal) . This is not evidence of any neurological component in 'ADHD'.As DR Castellanos has said in a reference inserted by me and deleted by others, there is no such evidence. PH logged in as Clockback ( talk) 08:17, 22 January 2008 (UTC) So why have my request for citations to establish a neurological component for 'ADHD' been reverted? PH, logged in as Clockback ( talk) 13:06, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I do wish Scuro would stop imagining that 'Where's the beef?' is a witty, original or penetrating question. It's a relic of a forgotten US presidential campaign,. It is also especially inappropriate for him to keep asking it. I don't, I'm afraid, think that he could see any beef in a whole bull charging straight at him. It would probably be a fringe bull, and so wouldn't count. Meanwhile, there is no 'beef', or indeed any other solid substance save pseudoscientific spam, in the theory of 'ADHD', a phantasmal invention entirely lacking in scientific proof for its existence. All I point out with these edits is that this is so. The quantity of opinion-based discussion papers, consisting entirely of assertion and subjectivity, doesn't alter the fact that objective proof is absent. The PET scan is not even claimed by supporters of the theory to be evidence of the neurological existence of ADHD.Their claims are rather more modest, see the 'controversy' article), or to be a method of diagnosing it. It continues to be 'diagnosed' with the subjective, vague criteria listed in DSM-IV and displayed in the entry, as they ought to be. I am not required, by the rules of scientific discussion, to provide evidence of a negative. The supporters of this theory are obliged to provide evidence of their positive, but they never do, just masses and masses of repetitive assertion plus references to German folk-tales. If they cannot support their contentions, then they should just resile, and stop telling me off for being naughty. I love Scuro's Humpty Dumpty approach to language. The word 'controversy' (in Scuro's dictionary) must conform to an incredibly tight definition which just so happens to exclude any of the many critics of 'ADHD' from being counted. The word 'neurology' meanwhile must be reduced to a de-medicalised vagueness so that 'ADHD' can be classified as a neurological disorder when there is no evidence that it has any neurological charcter. This is really getting funnier and funnier and it is a pity that Scuro and his ally/allies cannot see it. But please, please, please, won't these people take their long-threatened action against me? They don't, I believe, because they fear that the involvement of disinterested parties will result in the prominent inclusion of the terrifying word 'controversy' in the main article, where it obviously ought to be. I have no purpose in this discussion beyond ensuring that the truth is told to the lay reader. PH, signed in as Clockback ( talk) 18:19, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I have, as it happened, appealed for help at the first formal stage, some days ago, and to an individual editor who I believed to be interested.. I am still waiting. Will Scuro please read what I say and please stop asking where this blessed beef is? I have answered that, quite wittily in my view. He is the one who needs to provide substance, not I. As soon as he has a peer-reviewed article showing that 'ADHD' has an objective existence, then he's OK and we can all go home. All I point out, now perhaps for the thirtieth time without any pro-ADHD person contradicting me or responding, is that there isn't one. Therefore I have no duty in any normal argument to argue against it.*You cannot prove a negative. It is up to the ADHD zealots to prove their positive, and they cannot*. Assertion is no substitute. It is up to Scuro and his friends to produce it, or stop their comical attempts to keep from the lay reader the fact that this diagnosis is contentious. Opinion does not decide scientific fact. There is no neurological element in the diagnosis for 'ADHD' nor any evidence that it has a neurological character, and the Kings of the Earth and all manner of scientific bodies may crack their cheeks by bawling that it is so, but they won't alter the fact however loud they bellow. 'Top notch' indeed. In the fable, recall, it was the *emperor* who had no clothes. That is the whole point of the story, that the powerful can be, and often are, wrong by self-deception - and that their power and status does not automatically make them right. One of these grandiose bodies until recently classified homosexuality as a medical disorder. The the fashion changed, and it ceased to do so. Homosexuality remained just exactly the same thing as it had been before. By the way, I am asked to comment on the alleged 'heritability' of 'ADHD'.This, alas, is circular. If something doesn't exist, you can't inherit it. I suspect, however, that you can inherit an independent spirit and a dislike of dreary lessons in incompetent schools, and I am sure that a free society should value such people rather than drugging them. PH, logged in as Clockback ( talk) 20:51, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) "Where is the beef" is an American colloquialism derived, as I recall, from a television advertisement where a customer of a fast-food restaurant is complaining about the sandwich received. (Naturally, the ad was run by a restaurant chain that wasn't the one portrayed!) This ad was extensively exposed until the phrase became familiar, then it was used politically. It has come to simply mean, "what is significant, what's the point?" And, here, "what specific edit are you proposing?" Because all the Talk may sometimes be useful as background, but unless it focuses on actual edits, in the end, there is no "beef" in it. Don't get me wrong: my opinion is that background and philosophical discussion about the principles of what we are doing is proper and necessary, but, beyond a point, stubbornly arguing a position isn't what works here. It's like talking about menus and diet but never actually eating anything. In any case, there is actual editing going on. Nice. Some of the edits aren't so great, but others are. -- Abd ( talk) 05:05, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
I sourced a lot of the fact things, changed some weasel words, eliminated two mini-parts of the article as shown below and rewrote the treatments section to reflect the views of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, which represents the vast majority of psychiatrists' views, and therefore the most mainstream notions of ADHD and various treatments relating to it. source here
I pulled the sentences bolded two sections from the article. I think they should be sourced.
The clinical definition of "ADHD" dates to the mid-twentieth century, when physicians developed a diagnosis for a set of conditions variously referred to as "minimal brain damage", "learning/behavioural disabilities" or "hyperactivity". These conditions were in many cases associated with brain damage, but in other cases not, and do not provide a consistent history of the existence of an identifiable complaint. Researchers speculate that earlier references to the condition have been made throughout history. Sifaka talk 02:16, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
This first a bit wordy and unnecessary as it was stated above that researchers are speculating. The statement is also self contradicting in that the identifiable complaints are descriptions of behavior like "malady of attention" which overlap with the body of indicators related to ADHD, hence the speculation. It also is unsourced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sifaka ( talk • contribs) 00:33, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
In 1937 a Dr. Bradley in Providence, RI reported that a group of children with behavioral problems improved after being treated with stimulant medication. However, stimulants such as methyphenidate or the amphetamines will improve concentration in any individual who takes them, whereas medications in mainstream medicine only produce beneficial effects in those who are actually suffering from a specific complaint. Penicillin, for instance, does nothing for a healthy patient, and paracetamol is useless for anyone who does not need an analgesic. In 1957 the stimulant methylphenidate ( Ritalin) became available.
This second one sort of disrupts the flow of the paragraph and most certainly needs to be sourced. A jaunt to ADD forums, while not a reputable source, comes up with some people saying that this isn't the case with side effects including insomnia, hyperactivity, lack of hunger, etc. I also find it bizarre that stimulant medications are being called non-mainstream as well considering they are fairly commonly prescribed. Sifaka talk 00:22, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Hey Scuro - I see you've reverted my last edit but don't understand why? Can you explain? I've researched the viewpoints (plural) of medical skeptics myself and sought only to better mention the content of the 'controversy' article before the link provided. As it stands, the wording suggests that social critics = journalists and the like but specifically NOT medical professionals, which is untrue. Look, would you please think about my point and re-word it yourself? I'd be grateful if you would as I really am going to follow your good example now. Cheers. Miamomimi ( talk) 13:17, 23 January 2008 (UTC) Not to worry - I've effected a compromise. Miamomimi ( talk) 15:00, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
I thought about that one...if you look at the edit history I clarified everything first...and then thought some more about this. I have seen some webpages by Doctors and Psychiatrists who contend what you contend. What I am really pushing for is citations and then to get info into the main article. Then you can make a summary like you did in the intro if it is well supported. The question is...is there a clear minority of Professionals in the field who question the existence of ADHD? Perhaps you know more about this then I do. If you could post the webpages in talk with groups or different Dr's, it would be appreciated. I'd also like to point out that you can be a Dr. and also be a social critic. For instance Dr. Phil is a doctor, is widely known, has made public comments on ADHD...but I would consider him a social critic about the validity of the disorder. He is not working in the field of ADHD research. Does that make sense? Others may disagree, I'd be happy to hear from them.-- scuro ( talk) 16:47, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
The change was, partially, an improvement. However, there is one problem. The language I'd put in, which was taken out to make this "compromise," was explicitly supported by reliable source, though it did not say a great deal, only pointed out that there are "diverse views." (This was intended as stopgap language, a compromise itself, not as a permanent solution: the permanent solution is to improve the Controversies article -- the very name of which clues the reader into the fact of their being *some* kind of controversy -- and then use summary style to bring back what is appropriate and balanced from that article into this article. The new language implies that disagreement with the general opinion, which is what the article will present most prominently, is confined to "social critics." I appreciate the intention.... but I also agree that, there is, in fact, disagreement over various aspects of the ADHD picture that is coming from professionals, sweeping it all into "social criticism" is incorrect. However, if reliable source can be found for it, fine, though the language may still need tweaking. -- Abd ( talk) 19:06, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
"Diverse views", is just too broad and means nothing except that there are a number of opinions on this very broad topic. It makes no attempt at qualification or quantification. Diverse views would include proponents of "pyramid power" for curing ADHD, and the viewpoint that those who have ADHD are the spawn of devil. It's a no brainer statement because there is no subject where everyone has the same opinion. Sticking that phrase in the intro really doesn't sit well with me. It would even bother me in the body. I took another wack at it shifting weighting and using the word "some". I could live with that edit while Miamomimi searches for citations.-- scuro ( talk) 21:00, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Editor Clockback has repeatedly asked for proof that ADHD is "neurological." ADHD is classified as a behavioral condition or disorder. Behavioral disorders are ipso facto "neurological," it is practically inconceivable that it is anything else. By definition.
The basic error has been pointed out again and again: there is an artificial division some make between supposed physical disorders of the nervous system and behavioral disorders. The nervous system regulates and manages, among other things, behavior. We use the term "behavior," in fact, to refer only to aspects of human activity that are central nervous system mediated. (If a behavior, like heartbeat, takes place with no CNS support, we don't call it "behavior," except in a very technical sense, i.e., "the behavior of cultured heart muscle cells in a petri dish."
So all behavior is "neurological." It does not require proof, because it's in the *definition*. We don't prove definitions, we apply them.
It would appear that what Clockback is objecting to is an implication to the general public that there is some physical "disease", a "neurological disease," which implies some identified structural defect, endocrine disorder, or abnormal chemical imbalance, perhaps genetically based, causing ADHD. The name of the disorder, however, refers to behavior, and the article notes that it is probably heterogenous. (One of the implications is, in fact, that ADHD can have a "physical" cause, i.e., physical trauma can produce the symptoms. ADHD is defined and diagnosed, currently, by behavior, though there are hints at the possibility of supporting a diagnosis with physical testing (such as genetic analysis or drug challenge). Behavioral diagnoses, for all behavioral disorders, not just ADHD, are currently based on assessments of behavior by the diagnostician and are, hence, in some sense, "subjective."
There is substantial evidence, adduced in the article, to a genetic component to ADHD. But, first, what is ADHD?
It is nothing other than a named constellation of symptoms, as with any other behavioral condition. Again, Clockback objects to the term "disorder." Yet, in fact, they symptoms named to represent impaired function with respect to some forms of behavior; the ability to regulate activity, to concentrate on socially expected behavior. These are abilities, and the apparently difficulty that group displaying these symptoms is a "developmental disorder," when we look at it from the point of view of development. If we look at the DSM criteria for diagnosis, *all* of the criteria represent, if based in ability, some deficiency or disorder. Could there be other causes for these? Well, DSM does not consider each of these criteria, alone, to indicate ADHD, nor does it consider even all of them together to indicate ADHD; rather, rather, there must be multiple symptoms, persisting for six months *and manifesting in multiple environments.* Again, could this be imitated by something other than an inability on the part of a child -- or adult -- to do these things? Perhaps the child is so intelligent that the child recognizes that what is being demanded is stupid. Is this a disorder?
Probably. That is, having the skills and the ability to use the skills to successfully cooperate with others is a basic human trait, normally present. An intelligent *and* functional child would understand how to satisfy the needs of those around him or her *as well* as to satisfy the needs of his or her own independence of action and thought.
From the point of view of society, it's important that people be able to communicate and cooperate effectively, and an inability to do so is disabling, and may cause that very intelligent child to, among other things, die young and isolated.
What is very interesting about the treatment of ADHD with drugs is that it generally involves small doses of stimulants. Far from repressing the intelligence of these children and adults, it allows it to be more coherently expressed and integrated. But the treatment of ADHD is not only with drugs, and treatment only with drugs is deficient. Education of the patient and of those who interact with the patient are the other two legs of the tripod. People with ADHD can be *very* functional -- even high-achieving -- when given appropriate support. Schools that have decided to change the old habit of requiring that students fit rigid social models and expectations and instead start to tailor programs to individual students have seen performance skyrocket (see Driven to Distraction, and Delivered from Distraction, Hallowell et al).
In business, Hallowell describes a case where an employee comes up with an idea that will save his employer millions of dollars a year. His boss says, "Fine. I've scheduled a meeting next month, have a presentation ready." Now, anyone who knows ADHD as a practical reality will know that such a schedule, if unsupported, is highly likely to result in failure. Ask me to do something *now*, I'll do it. Ask me to do it *today,* maybe. Ask me to do it by next month, and without further reminder or support, such as someone to help me set milestones and monitor achievement of them, and my success could be very low, whether I get it done at all depends on how difficult it is. I may, sensibly, start early, but then I run into some obstacle and, hey, I've got a month!, so I set it aside. Unless I have very good reminder systems set up, I don't remember until the day before. The employee in the story tries to start several times; he ends up sitting down, the night before the presentation is due, and works until the early morning, perhaps 4;00 AM, and gets it done. He then takes a nap. And wakes up too late to arrive at the meeting. He goes to work, hands his presentation to his boss, and is told, "You're fired." The company, however, implements the program and saves millions of dollars per year. *Quite similar things have happened to me.*
The company fired an employee who could have continued to serve in a very valuable capacity. He was good at certain things, and not at others. By supplying him -- at low cost, in fact -- with what he needed to perform well, or even by simply recognizing that he might be late sometimes, the company could have benefited. But, instead, there was a moral judgment against missing an important meeting. He wasn't a "team player." He was "irresponsible." This man actually benefited, though, by being fired. He started his own consulting business and was quite successful. I'd guess he hired a secretary to keep him on track, or developed methods for doing it himself.
Now, there is a political dimension to all this. Providing support for "disabled" employees, in the U.S. at least, is required by law. If ADHD is a disorder, if it is not merely a choice that an employee makes for which the employee is morally and legally responsible, it might be illegal to fire that employee without making reasonable attempts to accomodate the disability. To my knowledge, this has never been tested, but it is not surprising to me that a conservative columnist might take such an interest in claiming that ADHD doesn't exist. However, with ADHD, it is quite likely that making the legally required attempts will actually benefit the employer (and this may be true for many disabilities). For schools to become more flexible in how the handle ADHD kids is probably going to result in better education for all. Or, I suppose, we could go back to the ruler or swats -- as I experienced, I was in high school before physical punishment went out of fashion, and, while I was loved by my teachers, the school attendance officer took a dim view of the flexibility they accorded me. Even though it was painful, I'd much rather be me than him, and I'll admit it was satisfying when I handed him an order that I was permitted to drop my first period class, which he had swatted me with a special paddle he kept in his office (holes drilled into it so it could be used at higher velocity), for missing. He was angry, livid. I liked that, because he could no longer take it out on me.
So, what is "neurological"? "The branch of science which treats of the nervous system." It includes the study of behavior. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Abd ( talk • contribs) 16:05, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
First may I suggest that making note of the "controversy", or visibly referencing to the the controversy article may very well give undue weight to the "controversy" by placing this in the intro. Having said all that, I have tried to define who the critics were and their viewpoint. Here is my attempt:
The scientific consensus in the field is that ADHD is a disorder which impairs functioning, and that many adverse life outcomes are associated with ADHD. The symptoms of those with ADHD can be not that profoundly different from normal behavior. There are critics who don't believe ADHD exists. Predominantly this group would consist of social critics such as the antipsychiatry movement. Certain religions, especially scientology, are highly skeptical that the diagnosis denotes a genuine impairment and question virtually all that is believed about ADHD. Individual medical professionals and other prominent media personalities also question the disorder. See Controversy about ADHD.
Abd has stated that we shouldn't mention scientology but I ask why not? Along with Antipsychiatry critics, they make up the bulk of the material that questions ADHD's existence. Wikipedia wants us to attribute the assertions.-- scuro ( talk) 04:34, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
The reason for not 'mentioning' Scientology or 'anti-psychiatry' is that there is no reason for including these mentions except as ad hominem smears against the non-Scientologists and those not associated with anti-psychiatry who have reasonable empirical doubts about this fictional complaint - just because they are capable of telling a hawk from a handsaw and are not bamboozled by pseudo-medical jargon. Just as the reasoning for 'mentioning' it is to attempt to discredit those sceptics by association. I suppose you could balance such an assertion by saying that believers in 'ADHD' were 'predominantly' incompetent teachers, bad parents and lazy doctors, often in need of paying patients, backed up by interested drug salesmen and by people wishing to seek a physiological explanation for a moral failing, which in my view is largely true, But I imagine that would be (rightly) rejected, and I wouldn't propose it. But sauce for the goose, etc. PH, logged in as Clockback ( talk) 10:22, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
If "ADHD is fake" crowd was majority viewpoint and the scientists were fringe, I'd agree with you. They are not. Assertions must be attributed. Find me a better answer if you don't like the one I provided. -- scuro ( talk) 12:30, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Oh, that day will come, when the fashion changes, as it did over pre-frontal leucotomy, and people realise the full horror of what is being done in the name of 'ADHD'. But when it does I hope and trust that we on the winning side will not seek to censor the rump that continues to believe in the existence of this nonsense. They will be entitled to their view, and in my opinion should be encouraged to remember that they used to hold it, even when ( as I expect ) they are hoping that everyone has forgotten. Majorities do not decide scientific truth. Evidence-free assertion is not proven even if 99.999% of all scientists happen to believe in it. Scientists, alas, are as open to crowd psychology as everyone else , and have no special weight in scinetific discussion except when they are speaking *as* scientists, that is, dealing with objective, testable proofs which they are themselves competent to examine. Otherwise, their opinion is no more useful and notable than that of, say, sheep-farmers on nuclear waste disposal. Since there is no evidence for the existence of 'ADHD' which scientists can study, nothing save fashion keeps it alive. When fashion changes, as it will, nobody will believe in it at all. Or almost nobody. I believe that some practitioners of pre-frontal leucotomy still maintain that it is cool. PH, logged in as Clockback ( talk) 14:45, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
I suggested that at this point the mention of controversy in this article -- unless clearly related to a particular topic here, and reliably sourced, should be limited to a brief reference, in the introduction, at the end of the intro, to the controversies article, with the briefest of explanation as to what is controversial. The claim that "the existence of ADHD" is controversial is preposterous, but, in fact, some might be claiming that, making it notable. I find the meaning of "existence" in this context to be vague and undefined. What does it mean? What is Hitchens asking for when he asks us to "prove that ADHD exists?" Is he looking for something tangible, that perhaps he could see or taste? Okay, he could see the text in DSM-IV. But, obviously, that does not satisfy him. But ADHD isn't a "thing." There may be some physical thing behind it, but there is only indirect evidence for that, so far. It is apparently heritable, from twin studies, which would imply that there is a genetic pattern, which is, indeed, physical, and which could be the basis for an "objective test." But that doesn't exist yet. However, if it *never* exists, that would not impact the reality of ADHD *as a diagnostic category*.
What Hitchens calls the nightmare of this, referring to lobotomies, isn't about ADHD, it would be about what is being done in response to an ADHD diagnosis. I disagree that it's horrible, at least in the cases I've seen. Which, of course, includes myself, but also my brother (who is now 74), and others I know. The idea of drugged kids is dramatic, but isn't a realistic picture of what a kid on the small doses of stimulant drugs being used is like. But even if it were horrible, the controversy, then, would be over the treatment, not the behavioral syndrome. Perhaps he would claim that these are just normal kids and they should be left alone.... which is equivalent to a claim that the disorder is only an apparent disorder. But an apparent disorder is, in fact, a disorder. Lots of diseases and disorders are transient, need no special treatment except perhaps some symptomatic relief. They are in the books, and it can be reassuring to a parent to know that what their kid has is usually harmless. And, indeed, sometimes a relatively harmless disease is treated aggressively, doing more harm than the disease. What about prostate cancer? There is a huge controversy over this. By a certain age, most men, if they are thoroughly biopsied, will be found to have prostate cancer. But relatively few will die from it, because they die of something else first. On the other hand, prostate cancer is the leading cause of cancer deaths among men. The question is what to do about it; often the answer is nothing. For many, the treatment would be worse than the disease. But not always. -- Abd ( talk) 06:41, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Every few days I see a colleagues younger brother in his home and I can instantly tell he has ADHD Though the parents deny it. They took him for testing and modifed his behavior telling him to never be distracted. They refuse medication and so on and so I go to wikipedia to see how often this sort of thing may happen. People are not seeing other ADHD cases and I would love to see a small portion of this article telling people how often this disorder is misdiagnosed. Please and thank you? Good idea bad? Is it gonna happen? Psychonautic ( talk) 18:11, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Can I suggest you dig yourself? Use these two words to search with: EPIDEMIOLOGY and ADHD. The article is skimpy in that section and I'll help you if you would like that to edit the section.-- scuro ( talk) 04:49, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Well, this response is fairly common, I've run into it. Telling an ADHD kid to "never be distracted" is like telling someone who is nearsighted to see better by trying harder. The problem with distraction is that it isn't recognized as such. That is, I don't think, "Okay, I'm not going to pay attention to my wife now, she's boring." Rather, I'm listening to her, and I think about what she says. And one thought leads to another. With *extraordinary* concentration and explicit attention, I can just listen. Unfortunately, this frequently means that I don't understand what she is saying and I certainly can't remember it.
Those parents are, in my view, abusing their child, if what has been said is accurate. Behind it is often a belief that ADHD symptoms represent defiance or moral defect. If this continues, the likelihood of that kid becoming even more seriously dysfunctional grows, and a high percentage become drug addicts or alcoholics. If the parents could see beyond what seem to be their rigid ideas, they might discover that they have a great kid who simply needs to be understood, to be supported in what he does well, and not to be expected to do what he can't do. ADHD kids can perform, sometimes, well above normal *if supported.*
The article already discusses how common ADHD is. I do think some better discussion of medication would be in order. The fact that the medications prescribed are generally very low-dose stimulants isn't mentioned. These are doses that the parents might not even notice if they took them. Again, there is commonly a moral judgment about drugs, and some people choose to treat ADHD without drugs. Diet can be important. But drugs are only a small part of the treatment of ADHD, the most important part is understanding what it is, how people with ADHD think, what they typically can and cannot do. No parent should be dismayed to discover that their child has ADHD. Unless they are strongly hoping that their child will be merely "normal." While not all ADHD kids are geniuses, quite a few are! And all will do better if better understood, and they need to understand themselves as well. I'd recommend Driven to Distraction, by Hallowell and another author, both MDs, both with ADHD themselves. -- Abd ( talk) 06:56, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
According to a 1990 article by Joel Sappell and Robert W. Welkos in the Los Angeles Times, part of a series of articles about Scientology, "the uproar over Ritalin was triggered almost single-handedly by the Scientology movement." [9] The Citizens Commission on Human Rights, an anti-psychiatry group formed by Scientology in 1969, conducted a major campaign against Ritalin in the 1980s and lobbied Congress for an investigation of Ritalin. Cass Ballenger, a member of the House Education and Labor Committee who met with the Citizens Commission said that "some of the information they provided did not 'add up.'" For example, the article mentions that the Committee claimed a figure of 10-20% of students under age 10 on Ritalin in a particular school district, to which the manager of health services for the district replied, "if they are saying that is the statistic ... they are lying," stating that the percentage of students taking Ritalin or any stimulant for hyperactivity was actually under 1%. [9] Scientology publications identified the "real target of the campaign" as "the psychiatric profession itself" and claimed the campaign "brought wide acceptance of the fact that (the commission) [ sic] and the Scientologists are the ones effectively doing something about [...] psychiatric drugging". [9] -- scuro ( talk) 04:55, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
The critics are not 'claiming' anything, they are saying, what is abolutely true and undeniable, that the DSM contains no objective diagnostic tools, and lacks objective scientific information on the nature of this supposed complaint. They are saying that the burden of proof lies upon those who wish to traet this speculative stuff as established fact. The critics cannot prove a negative because that is impossible to do. There is no scientific journal containing articles about how things haven't been proved, to which the critics can direct the believers(perhaps there should be, but there isn't). The supporters, much more importantly, cannot prove a positive, which if they were as right as they were certain, they would be able to do. If the thing unquestionably existed, there'd be an objective proof for it. As long as there isn't, it remains a matter of opinion and axiomatically a matter of controversy. And until they do come up with objective scientific proof, they should stop acting as if half a ton of graeco-latin waffle on fancy headed paper adds up to proof of anything, and making sneery remarks about 'fringe', or attemting to claim that all the sceptics are Scientologists. One day, one of the 'ADHD' supporters will get this simple point. If not, anyone care to buy Brooklyn Bridge? PH signed in as Clockback ( talk) 16:39, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm going to copy Mr. Hutchin's comment one statement at a time, because otherwise the commentary will be much clumsier. Understand that I'm doing this because I think that there is something to be examined here, specifically the foundation of the controversy. Unless that is understood, the controversy will rage with no side understanding where the real disagreement lies. It appears to me to be about much more than ADHD, but we may need to understand it to approach the ADHD issues. Indented material is from Mr. Hutchins.
Does Mr. Hutchins mean what he writes? Is he careful about his language? I'm going to assume, here, that he means exactly what he says, that his choice of words is not accidental. This may not be true, and if it is not, he is, of course, welcome to say, "No, I didn't mean that, the words were not exact, they were not the right choice." Or whatever.
First of all, there are many critics, coming from various positions. Are they all saying what is "absolutely true and undeniable"? We could, for the article, ask Mr. Hutchins for reliable source for this statement, but I'm setting that aside, and am asking Mr. Hutchins how he knows what is "absolutely true," and what is "undeniable." Is it possible that he errs? Is it possible that they err? What is the difference between "absolutely true," and merely "true"? Or merely "appears to me to be true"? When something is "undeniable," we generally think of being faced with direct evidence, so plain that no reasonable person, seeing it, could deny the conclusion that is being asserted. What is the basis for Mr. Hutchins making this very strong statement. What is the source of his knowledge, and, even more to the point, does he have an special knowledge on which he is basing his claim -- and I mean the claim in the quoted sentence -- that the rest of us do not have. Or are we overlooking what we know? However, note, I haven't examined the substance of the claim yet, only his preface to it. Is he correct, is it undeniable, and, more to the point, is it the controversy we face here?
What is he asserting, that is "absolutely and undeniably true?" DSM-IV contains, in the section we are concerned with, diagnostic criteria which allow a clinician to establish a diagnosis of ADHD. This is, in fact, a definition of ADHD. It is not a proof of anything. It does not pretend to be a proof. ADHD is a *category*, a name for a constellation. Does Orion exist? Apparently, there has been sufficient research and exploration into the constellation of symptoms involved that it has been found useful to give it a label. DSM-IV communicates the applicability of the label, such that a clinician can note a correspondence between the symptoms listed and those presented by the patient. Are these "objective diagnostic tools"? ADHD is a behavioral condition. What is an "objective tool" for diagnosing such a disorder? Every symptom is identified by the clinician through observation or report. The clinician may observe movement of the patient, and has a sense of how common these patterns of movement are. People in relationship with the patient may report patterns of behavior. This is subjective, to be sure, but subjective and objective aren't absolutes, as Mr. Hutchins seems to think. Ultimately, everything we experience, everything we name, every analysis we make, is "subjective." But that doesn't mean that there is not a relative scale of subjective/objective. DSM-IV describes the symptoms in such a way as to allow a clinician to identify the behaviors with *reasonable* confidence that the diagnosis would be made in the same way, with the same observations, by another clinician following DSM-IV. This, if it has been done properly -- one could disagree -- is relatively objective. There is, essentially, a checklist, and so many checks for such and such a period of time justifies the diagnosis. Which merely is a diagnostic category, a means of comparing the clinician's observations with those of others who have made similar observations. It says nothing about causation, in itself, nor does it prescribe treatment, nor does it even identify the constellation as a problem. Except, of course, for the words "deficit" and "disorder" and possibly "hyperactivity."
However, these words aren't part of the definition. Nevertheless, the symptoms do refer to conditions that can justify these labels, they refer, generally, to some kind of impaired behavior, behavior that is considered deficient by the patient or by others. This, as well, is subjective. I'll address this elsewhere. But if we consider whether I'm paying attention, say, to my children or not, we could quantify it. How often, relatively, when my daughter comes to me and says "Daddy," do I not respond? Is this lack of response, sometimes, unusual? If it is substantially less than normal, it's a "disorder," an "impairment." Unless, of course, I'm *choosing* not to respond to her. I can guarantee that I'm not. I'm only aware that she is trying to get my attention retroactively, if at all. (With age, I often have no recollection at all of her effort, when I was younger, I could recover it from my short-term memory of the sounds I was hearing. But then, as now, she might have to try several times, and maybe tug on my sleeve, to get my attention.)
What speculative stuff"? The book is about as objective a fact as I can imagine. You can use it to keep papers from blowing away. The text may be read, and it decodes and seems to make sense. The criteria can be applied, and a diagnosis -- which is not a determination of *cause*, it is the application of a classifying label, a label established by convention, by agreement in a profession, a name for an identified pattern of behavior. What alleged fact is claimed in DSM-IV that the critics don't consider to be true? Do they think that ADHD is some "thing" independently defined, and that the characteristics described in the book don't match it, as if, for example, a claim that my African daughter has blond hair or blue eyes. However, ADHD *is* the diagnostic category described. Mr. Hitchens elswhere approaches what his real objection is, I haven't answered that yet.
What thing? Of course the critics can't prove a negative, but neither can a book giving the definitions of categories *prove* that the category is as is described. It's like proving an axiom. Prove that what we see when we look up, outside, on a clear day, is the "sky." Maybe there is a painted backdrop surrounding the world. Oh. If there were, it would be the sky. That thing we see when we look up.
I see something here that I've noticed before about Hitchen's argument. He seems to think that the activity of science is proving this or that. But, outside of mathematics, the word "proof" is rarely used in science. As I wrote before, were Newton's laws of motion "proven"? No, they were experimentally confirmed, within the limitations of the experiments. Indeed, those laws only describe the behavior of mass and force, they do not prove that mass and force are "real." Are they real? Prove it!
Please show me an example of the "objective proof" of the existence of any behavioral disorder, so I can know what is being claimed to be necessary! Or is there a claim that there is no such thing as a behavioral disorder? What is "it"? Is there any controversy that there is a diagnostic category called ADHD? Who is claiming that this diagnostic category doesn't exist? Yes, there are people who claim that *something* doesn't exist. What is it that they claim does not exist? The category? But that's preposterous. So it must be something else. What is it? (This is a familiar semantic problem. What is "God"?)
According to the principle enunciated here, the definition of any word would be controversial. No. Words are defined by convention, an agreement between those who communicate with them.
Suppose we are recording coin tosses. We record the number of the toss and whether it was a head or not. Then we identify patterns in the tosses. For example, we could count the occurrence of eight heads in a row, and we call this a "run." Now, does a run exist? Now change this. Record the behavioral symptoms of patients, and do this for many patients. Classify these behaviors into patterns that are noticed. Give these patterns names. Now, prove that they exist.
Well, there is the record we kept. Is that objective? How do I know that it was really a head and not a tail, maybe my eyes tricked me, I was distracted, I recorded the wrong thing. Besides, what if there is nothing there but pure random accidents. How would we tell? Well, we'd look for correlations. Is one run correlated with another, such that when a run is found, more often than not, there is another run after it according to some criterion, or is there no correlation. (If the coin tosses are random, there is no correlation. With ADHD, there are patients who show the symptoms. *Therefore ADHD exists*. Now, what does this mean? That's another question!
Is the ADHD diagnosis related to some condition, such that it is not merely a random association of symptoms, of no more meaning than the coin tosses I describe? This can be and has been studied, you know. Negative association, contrary to Mr. Clockback's assertion, *can* be shown. It's not *proof*, but strong evidence, if the constellation were meaningless, which is the only way I can sensibly understand Clockback's position, could be adduced. The "run" could be shown to be no more and no less meaningful than any other specific eight-bit pattern. If the coin is fair. Statistical proof. Is statistical proof acceptible? Or does Clockback want some mathematical proof? Or what? No example of what proof would look like has been given. And, actually, he's been asked more than once to address this issue. He just ignores it, or, once, claimed it wasn't relevant, after all, we are talking about ADHD, not the other behavioral conditions brought up by Scuro.
The question, what it is that Mr. Hitchens is asking about, has not been made clear. ADHD is a diagnostic category; however, the article does treat it as if it were a thing. This is a linguistic convention, and it's common. An article about schizophrenia will treat it as a noun referring to something physical entity. Whether or not schizophrenia is a physical entity or not is actually irrelevant to its diagnosis (at present). And, indeed, Mr. Hutchins elsewhere treats a subjective category as if it were an objective reality, he refers to nothing being "wrong" with a patient. How would we diagnose that?
I'll assert that there is nothing wrong with anyone, period. Unless we define "wrong." What does that mean? Is Hutchins claiming that there is nothing "wrong" with my not noticing that my daughter is trying to get my attention? That there is nothing wrong with my putting everything off until the last minute, a habit I have struggled greatly against, with little success? (I've managed to get through life, raising one family and now another, with external support, which sometimes I get from others, and sometimes I get from systems I've set up, but maintaining my own systems is, again, very difficult. They fall apart. Anyone who has struggled with ADHD will recognize this. Someone else, inclined to moralization, will simply say that I'm irresponsible. Is there any thing "wrong" with being irresponsible? Who says that responsibility is better than irresponsibility?
I've seen no reliable source for that claim that "all skeptics are Scientologists," and Hutchins is perhaps mistaking his interpretation of the efforts of an anti-fringe activist as the consensus in the field: the great "they" that those like Mr. Hutchins love to decry with such fervor. Once again, there is a failure to specify what he's talking about. *Who* are "they"? Where do "they" perform these actions that they should stop? What does "should" mean? Is it an objective modifier? Who decides what should and should not be done? Mr. Hitchens? Or me? Or Scuro? Or the Wikipedia community, through its quirky processes? Or the scientific community, the collective intelligence of the entire body of researchers and analysts? Or what? Is "should" a matter of absolute truth, such that nobody's opinion matters? Who "sneers"? Because one user on Wikipedia makes a weird remark, why should a sober and respectable columnist tar an entire community with what he says? Is he, the one allegedly sneering, typical in some way? If so, of what? Is he a scientist? (He doesn't write like one, but maybe he's studying.) How do we "sneer" in print? (Mr. Hutchins might know the answer to this quite well.)
Ah! Brooklyn Bridge! Where's the beef? What point? And, a stopped Clockback is right twice a day. How's that for rhetorical brilliance, eh?
There is something which I've been aware of since I started writing on-line more than twenty years ago. This all sticks around. Todays' heated argument can be read tomorrow, or next year, and quite possibly a hundred years from now. If, indeed, Mr. Hutchins is a lone (or almost lone) beacon of truth, unjustly repressed by the rest of us, it will be visible. And if he is a tired old crank, unable to understand cogent arguments if they "lick him on the nose," which is something like what he wrote elsewhere, that too will be visible. I've been leaving a record for the last twenty years, and I look back at it from time to time. I've certainly grown, I made arguments then that I would not make today, but ... some writers, pretty clearly, don't look back and don't expect to. We might see more productive arguments if they did.
Don't mistake any of this as an argument for the "reality" of ADHD. Dr. Slobo, elsewhere, has addressed this issue brilliantly and with nuance.-- Abd ( talk) 21:03, 26 January 2008 (UTC) -- Abd ( talk) 21:03, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
75.216.102.185 ( talk) 07:01, 5 February 2008 (UTC)way to long for me to read (ADD sufferer, thats ADHD sans the H) ruthven78
I've moved concerns about labeling onto this page. Several notable people in the field have commented on this and it should be on this article because it is not controversial.-- scuro ( talk) 05:27, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
I've moved genetic stuff from the controversies article here. Not a perfect edit...but that is okay. Perhaps someone can clean that up. -- scuro ( talk) 05:48, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi,
According to Dr. Hallowell's Delivered From Distraction (ISBN-13: 978-0345442314), patients with ADHD have some traits of Reward Deficiency Syndrome. I edited the RDS article just to add an additional definition to the acronym. I don't have time to start an article about Reward Deficiency Syndrome right now, but there are tons of case studies on the internet available. I'm just posting this here as it is likely that contributors for the ADHD article might have some interest in contributing to RDS as well. -- Pinnecco ( talk) 16:11, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
This subject of the article really needs to be fixed, its just thrown in there, like it just has to be there, but in the least possible quality. It needs more info or to be deleted.
Killroy ( talk) 23:26, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
I replaced this:"Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD), or Hyperkinetic Disorder, is considered by researchers in the field to be a neurobehavioural developmental disorder[1] [2] [3]"
With this: "Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD), or Hyperkinetic Disorder, is a neurobehavioural developmental disorder[1] [2] [3]"
There's no need to say: "is considered" since that's a given and sources are already presented anyway.
I removed some stuff which did not appear to conform to a majority viewpoint in the scientific community. You can see the comparison between versions here. My primary motivation for doing so is the undue weight Wikipedia policy. The existence of ADHD is a non-issue for the majority of in-the-field scientists, psychiatrists, psychologists.. etc (see the APA for example). According to the Wikipedia policy, in order to maintain the article's NPOV the majority of the ADHD controversy needs to be confined to the controversy about ADHD page. I used the following pages as guides for my decision, Evolution, Vaccine, and September 11, 2001 attacks. To compare ADHD to evolution for instance a large number of Americans do not believe in evolution, the vast majority of practicing biologists and other such scientists do believe in evolution, thus evolution is dealt with in its main page article with the full weight of scientific fact behind it.
To keep with NPOV, I also moved the controversy section out of the opening and replaced it with a slightly older version which focuses less on the the minority debate on whether ADHD exists or not and more the much larger diversity of views that exist in the scientific community on various aspects of ADHD which I believe is important. Other articles with potentially contentious topics that have broad backing from scientists and/or officials do not link to a controversy section in the opening (see examples above).
Sifaka talk 02:07, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I re-reverted the article to my version. I have read the discussion above about whether or not to mention the controversy section in the introduction. User:scuro wrote a paragraph for the introduction that attempted to summarize in an NPOV manner the critical viewpoint; however, the issue of whether or not the controversy section belonged in the introduction was never resolved in the first place.
I stated my reasons above about why I think the controversy section is inappropriate in the introduction. It is true that I could have first fielded the proposal to move the controversy section on the talk page first and waited for a consensus; however, in my experience I get little response so I wind up instituting the changes anyway and only then do people comment. This time I chose to cut to the chase and be bold, but if you felt I acted improperly, please let me know. In general, I would like to have a discussion about whether or not the controversy section should belong in the introduction. Sifaka talk 20:52, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I thought it best to work in bite sized chunks and started with the intro to the ADHD controversy article. Please view and record any response on the controversy talk page. Thankyou. Miamomimi ( talk) 14:46, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
ADHD is not an attention-deficit type of hyperactivity disorder -- rather, it is a disorder of both or either of attention deficiency and hyperactivity. Therefore, I propose that it be written as "attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder" (with a slash) througout, and that the title of the page be changed accordingly as well. 198.54.202.166 ( talk) 17:13, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Why not attribute exactly who states that it is a disorder and who states that it is controversial? Wiki asks us to attribute where the controversies come from. As mentioned earlier the term "diverse" is too all encompassing, it is like the word "some". If attribution is more specific the reader knows ahead of time what the controversies article is about before they hit the link. So please explain why the intro was reverted.-- scuro ( talk) 12:14, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
In my mind I had always considered that the term "controversy" had been overplayed because the medical and scientific community don't really talk in terms of controversy when they communicate amongst each other. But controversy is mentioned in the popular media and is certainly expounded upon by certain individuals, religions, and advocacy groups.-- scuro ( talk) 05:20, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Just a thought. Also, what the hell is this nonsense: "The scientific consensus in the field, and the consensus of the national health institutes of the world.." perhaps if this was replaced with consensus of the American Health Institutes and governments influenced by multinational drug company lobbyists. Always seemed a bit odd that the America has the highest diagnose rate of this "disease" per 100 compared the rest of the "western World". Or is it simply that some how North American society is especially effective at producing nurophsyiologically "ill" people?
To put it simply, where the hell is the criticisms of diagnostic systems used in in classifying children/adults with ADHD? I am not saying that it may not exist - although again the classifying of certain behavior as a mental illness sin ply because it does not fit in with a particular societies expectations is always dangerous - but the article simply lacks any mention of this. Really2012back ( talk) 19:10, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Show me the national health institute or national scientific body from any country in the world that claims that ADHD is fake. The criticism is in the whole article devoted to controversy. The link is in the second paragraph. We are working at a consensus and hopefully some day the articles will merge together. You could help us by sharing knowledge with proper citations. You may wish to work on the controversies page if this is where your interest is. -- scuro ( talk) 00:20, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
This article is incomplete without a thorough discussion of the works of Thom Hartmann. I suggest that one start out by reading his book entitled "The Edison Gene."
Rather than being a disorder, ADHD is merely a case of a small percentage of our population still possessing a preponderance of "throwback" Hunter/Gatherer genes (instead of a preponderance of Farmer genes).
Being a Hunter in a Farmer's world takes some doing, but it can be done. Simply look at all the Greats of All Time that had ADHD. Edison, Einstein, Lincoln, the list is VERY long... 06:51, 16 February 2008 24.136.22.140 Sig added by Sifaka talk 01:40, 18 February 2008 (UTC) *note this IP is NOT Sifaka
Every disorder seems to claim the greats...ie look under Asbergers and genius and you will see that they claim Einstein and others also. The mensa folks try to claim they were free of disorder, they want their geniuses pure. There is no scientific evidence that Hartmann's theory holds any water.-- scuro ( talk) 06:10, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't know what to do with someone like Hartmann or the neurodiversity theory. Both theories are plausible but unlikely. Neither has support in the academic world and I don't believe either theory is controversial. These are social theories and there is little debate or strife with academics. They don't talk to each other. They are on two different levels. What do you do with these theories? Any thoughts? -- scuro ( talk) 16:13, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
It is a deviation from the "normal" or "average" functionality of the brain
Yes, ADD HAS Neurological tracks i.e. you can SEE it. It just involves a series of expensive and complicated tests.
This is really a subjective question. I would prefer no meds, but without them I just can't really get any work done.
The most likely cause is a deficit of dopamine, a key neurotransmitter in the brain. This is how ADD meds work, they pump you full of the transmitter and some calming agents to cool the Hyperactivity.
>>>All previous information I gathered through various hours of extensively annoying various psychiatrists and psychologists, reading a few books and doing some minor research. Anyone who can back these claims with sources, please do. seeing as how I really can't remember the books I read this from, and can't cite my doctors. This might make the essentials of each view easier to understand and could make it easier to compare viewpoints with each other and mainstream scientific theory. Sifaka talk 19:38, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Take a look at other mental disorders on wiki, such as Aspergers, BiPolar, Tourettes...you don't see a controversy page. You don't see a controversy section. Hunter/ Gather and Neurodiversity deserve their own webpage. I had heard of these theories before coming here. What should be done is to have a sub- subheading within the main article titled alternative theories, brief mention should be made of each theory and how they differ from the other alternative theories, and they should be linked out for readers so they can read on the subject in greater detail. These are not controversial subjects with regards to adhd. Controversy seems to be most linked to medication and that is the topic that most citable critics focus on. By collecting all that that does not agree with mainstream thought on ADHD we have created undue weight by giving too much attention to some ideas and not enough to truly controversial minority opinion. -- scuro ( talk) 20:05, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Why does ADD (Attention-deficit disorder) redirect to ADHD? They are different disorders although similar, as I assuming. -- penubag ( talk) 02:23, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
The brain scan images by Zametkin are clearly flawed. One can see from the noise level that the "normal" brain false color image is scaled with a higher dynamic range than the "ADHD" brain. This is at best misleading, and as such it should not be the only visual on the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.213.44.9 ( talk) 22:57, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Deficits in Attention, Motor control and Perception, which is the combination of ADHD and Developmental Coordination Disorder, has a notability tag. Since it's largely been rejected, and doesn't seem to have gained significant traction at any point, a stand-alone article is probably not the best way to present it. One option is to merge it into ADHD, perhaps as a single paragraph in the history section, or perhaps into a section on comorbidities. Another option is to merge it into the Christopher Gillberg article. If you have an opinion on this issue, please leave a note at the DAMP talk page. (I am not watching this page and will not see any comments left here.) Thanks, WhatamIdoing ( talk) 17:12, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
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