The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Reviewer: Thebiguglyalien ( talk · contribs) 03:11, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
I'll have this reviewed in the next day or two. Hopefully we can get the Women in Green nominations reviewed during the event.
Thebiguglyalien (
talk) 03:11, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
Grnrchst, the review is posted below. Thebiguglyalien ( talk) 17:17, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
Well-written
- Does the lead need to be four short paragraphs? Some of these could be combined.
She managed to escape
can be "She escaped".
which she considered to be a continuation of capitalism
– This doesn't appear in the body.
- Gendarmerie should be linked for clarity.
the "Siahkal incident"
– If this is the common name for the event, it doesn't need quotes. If it's not, then it probably doesn't need to be named.
to have been constantly tortured and raped
– Is constantly the right word here? It seems like it's being used to mean "frequently" or "regularly". Likewise for the lead.
Nevertheless, she refused
– This seems laudatory.
She managed to survive the torture
– Also laudatory.
different women of different social classes
– The first "different" can be lost.
; sex workers were abused by the guards, while upper-class dissidents received fully-furnished private cells;
– Two semicolons in the same sentence. Either this should be reworded or the semicolons should be replaced with emdashes (—).
she also came to suggest that
– Wordy. This could just be "she also suggested".
- The article could give the name of her memoir, Torture and Resistance In Iran.
One of the OIPFG leaders that continued to advocate for guerrilla warfare was Dehghani
– This sentence seems backwards. It could read "Dehghani was one of the...", and then the next sentence could say that she was expelled.
little different from the Shah;
– This semicolon should just be a colon.
Dehghani led a minority away
– A minority of what? I suggest changing to "a minority of the organisation's members" or rewording to something like "a small number of the organisation's members".
who had decided up armed struggle
– Are there some missing words here?
one of the most effective guerrila groups, with its members accounting for 20% of arrests and executions by the authorities
– These ideas don't seem to be connected. Some elaboration on how it was successful would be helpful.
- Source doesn't really go into further depth. I'm assuming Zabir was using the figures of arrests and executions to show how much attention the authorities were focusing on them. I've split the sentence for now, but let me know if there's anything else I can do. -- Grnrchst ( talk) 08:56, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- This might just be me, but I usually associate "Legacy" sections with people who have died.
depicted her struggles with torture
– I'd avoid calling something a "struggle" in wikivoice.
her "heroic resitance"
– Is this supposed to be resistance?
was held up as "an example of [the] courage and determination of the Iranian revolutionaries."
– I don't usually make an issue out of passive voice, but here I think it's important to specify who is saying this.
describing her as a "courageous fighter"
– Should this be "who described her as"? Right now Dehghani is the subject of the sentence, so it seems like she's describing herself.
But historian Haideh Moghissi
– "But" can be lost.
Her guerrilla tactics
– The previous sentence talked about Moghissi, so Dehghani should be named again. Otherwise we might be talking about Moghissi's guerrilla tactics.
- Verifiable with no original research
- RoseDog Books seems to be a sketchy self-publishing imprint.
- It's probably reliable, but what is "Occasional Paper"?
- Just checked and its full title is actually the "Abdou Filali-Ensari Occasional Paper Series". It's published by Aga Khan University. [1] Clarified in citation. -- Grnrchst ( talk) 09:03, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
Spot checks:
- Moghadam & Ashtiani (1991)
many Iranian communist groups deviated from the program of armed struggle, claiming the tactic to be outdated
– This source suggests it was only two groups, and it doesn't say anything about claims of being outdated. Does the other source address this?In June 1981, the IPFG and KDP were joined by the People's Mojahedin Organisation (MEK), who had decided up armed struggle against the Islamic Republic
– Could you point to the corresponding text in the source?- In Moghadam & Ashtiani 1991, p. 89:
"The militant Left (Fedayee-Minority, Peykar, the Kurdish organisation Komaleh, Ashraf Dehghani, Organisation of Communist Unity) adopted a hardline and rejectionist policy during this period. Attempts were made to join the Mojahedin in a front against the regime, but failed. The Mojahedin threw their weight behind the beleaguered Bani-Sadr and staged large street demonstrations in his support in the spring of 1981."
; and in Zabir 2011, pp. 109-110:"When the Mojahedin began the armed struggle against the regime in June 1981, as will be shown later, the Dehghani faction became their comrades-in-arms."
. -- Grnrchst ( talk) 09:27, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- In Moghadam & Ashtiani 1991, p. 89:
- Moghissi (1996)
- This source says that she and her brother were both in the organization, but that's about it. Does it add anything to the claim that
During the late 1960s, Dehghani joined her brother in the Organization of Iranian People's Fedai Guerrillas
that isn't addressed by the other sources?- Sorry, I'm not sure what you're asking me here. --
Grnrchst (
talk) 09:49, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- To me, "joined her brother" implies that he was already in the group and then she came on board specifically because he was there. Thebiguglyalien ( talk) 14:30, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Sorry, I'm not sure what you're asking me here. --
Grnrchst (
talk) 09:49, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Only woman on the Central Committee is confirmed, but it's on p. 117.
Dehghani thus contrasted "reactionary women" against "human beings"
– I don't think this is a fair analysis of what Dehghani is saying (which is why I try to avoid any analysis of direct quotes). I read her contrasting "reactionary women" against "revolutionary women", where revolutionary women are "conscious human being[s] dedicated to building a social system within which all humans regain their humanity and honour". The [class] consciousness seems to be the key here rather than humanity.- Per Sedghi 2007, p. 185:
"But there is an apparent effort on Dehghani’s part to juxtapose “woman” – as a narrow notion – with “human” – as a broader, full perspective. In this juxtaposition, Dehghani permits no space for reactionary women as human beings. Dehghani distinguished between women with reactionary values and women as human beings."
Let me know if you think I should still make a change here. -- Grnrchst ( talk) 09:49, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Per Sedghi 2007, p. 185:
- Where does this support "dually exploited" or "needed class conscious male partners"?
- "dually exploited" comes from Sedghi 2007, p. 185. As for the latter, Moghissi 1996, pp. 117-118 quotes directly from Dehghani:
"when a woman acquires class consciousness alongside a man who has also acquired class consciousness, a consciousness that leads her to break the corrupt class system, she is no longer a woman with reactionary values. [...] Revolutionary women and revolutionary men ... fight for creating a society in which there is no room for such questions as to whether or not women should have freedom and whether or not women's freedom is good or bad"
; whereas Sedghi 2007, p. 185 provides some analysis before giving this same quote:"However, she suggests that each woman must have a male companion in order to abolish the class nature of the society. She states, “when a woman attains class consciousness, together with a man who has also gained class consciousness, an understanding that leads them to uproot the class structure, then she is no longer the ‘woman’ of reactionary standards and values but a ‘human being.’”"
Let me know how to proceed. -- Grnrchst ( talk) 09:49, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- "dually exploited" comes from Sedghi 2007, p. 185. As for the latter, Moghissi 1996, pp. 117-118 quotes directly from Dehghani:
- Moghissi doesn't explicitly frame her thoughts about Dehghani's feminism as a "criticism".
- This source says that she and her brother were both in the organization, but that's about it. Does it add anything to the claim that
- Shahidian (1997)
- Does this support
the only woman on its Central Committee
? This source seems to say that she created an organization that allowed women to serve on a committee, which is a slightly different claim.- Per Shahidian 1997, p. 25:
"Accordingto my information, in only two organizations did women hold membership in the central committees-the Cherikhay-eFedaii (a small group established by Ashraf Dehghani and her like-minded comrades) and the OIPFG (minority)"
Yeah this does appear to be saying something different. I've moved the source and this information to later in the article.
- Per Shahidian 1997, p. 25:
- Does this support
has remained in exile ever since
? The source says "until after the revolution", which seems to contradict this.
- Does this support
- Broad in its coverage
- After reading the article, I still don't know what Dehghani actually did during her years as a revolutionary. Did she do anything of note while she was with the OIPFG? She was on the committee, and it says that
Dehghani herself continued her activities
, but I don't really know what that means.
- I'm not sure. Sources mostly talk about her leading role within the OIPFG, her political philosophy and her time in prison. It's possible she was more of a leader than a do-er, if that makes sense? -- Grnrchst ( talk) 10:06, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Does Sedghi at all describe what role Dehghani played prior to her arrest?
Thebiguglyalien (
talk) 14:30, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- In the text, they say that
"Following the Siahkal incident, Dehghani continued her clandestine and guerrilla activities, only to be arrested unexpectedly in Tehran on May 13, 1971 after a harsh and brutal clash with a group of “police and SAVAK thugs.”"
. In one of the footnotes, they also suggest that"Dehghani’s account reveals that she had joined the armed struggle from “the beginning,” which could possibly mean that she participated in the [Siahkal] incident."
-- Grnrchst ( talk) 16:30, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- In the text, they say that
- Does Sedghi at all describe what role Dehghani played prior to her arrest?
Thebiguglyalien (
talk) 14:30, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Moghissi seems to emphasize the importance of Dehghani's femininity in relation to the torture, particularly with the snake example.
- I really tried not to provide too many details of the torture, as it rather disturbed me when I was reading about it. If you think it's necessary, I can write something up about it. I just worry about being too graphic. -- Grnrchst ( talk) 10:06, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- It does seem that the torture is a major aspect of her notability, and Wikipedia generally doesn't exclude graphic details if they're necessary to explain a subject. It doesn't need to be a full description, but it would be good to describe that her torturers believed her to be weak because she was a woman, which would include something like the snake anecdote.
Thebiguglyalien (
talk) 14:30, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- @ Thebiguglyalien: I've written the snake anecdote into it, as I agree that it's quite important for emphasising her feminist perspective and the misogyny of the torturers. I'm still going to air on the side of not providing details for the rest of the torture, as it's just brutality and little more. -- Grnrchst ( talk) 13:22, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- It does seem that the torture is a major aspect of her notability, and Wikipedia generally doesn't exclude graphic details if they're necessary to explain a subject. It doesn't need to be a full description, but it would be good to describe that her torturers believed her to be weak because she was a woman, which would include something like the snake anecdote.
Thebiguglyalien (
talk) 14:30, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
This would eventually lead to the group's effective elimination
– Is there any more detail on how this unfolded?
- From the cited source:
"[Dehghani's] small faction, called the Iranian People’s Fadai Guerrillas (IPFG), engaged in the Kurdish civil war before the repression of all militant opposition in 1981 practically eliminated the group, leaving behind numerous casualties. While based in the Kurdish rebel-controlled zone, a small faction split from the IPFG to carry out armed operations in the Caspian region, in a manner reminiscent of the Siāhkal operation, before the group leaders were killed in March 1982. [...] The state’s heavy-handed suppression in June 1981 cost the Minority hundreds of its supporters, pushing the OIPFG to the Kurdish rebel region. As of July 1982, personality conflicts began to chip away the remainder of the OIPFG (Minority), now stationed in Kurdistan, building up to the bloody clash of factions over the group’s radio station in the Kurdish village of Gāpilon (in Iraq) on 23 January 1986, which left five dead."
-- Grnrchst ( talk) 10:06, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- 1–2 sentences could be added to the article about the group's collapse, since it's directly relevant to Dehghani. Thebiguglyalien ( talk) 14:30, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- From the cited source:
Neutral
Only minor wording issues, which are covered under criterion one.
- Stable
No disputes.
- Illustrated
One image, which is public domain. The caption is sufficient.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
| GA toolbox |
|---|
| Reviewing |
Article (
|
visual edit |
history) ·
Article talk (
|
history) ·
Watch
Reviewer: Thebiguglyalien ( talk · contribs) 03:11, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
I'll have this reviewed in the next day or two. Hopefully we can get the Women in Green nominations reviewed during the event.
Thebiguglyalien (
talk) 03:11, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
Grnrchst, the review is posted below. Thebiguglyalien ( talk) 17:17, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- Well-written
- Does the lead need to be four short paragraphs? Some of these could be combined.
She managed to escape
can be "She escaped".
which she considered to be a continuation of capitalism
– This doesn't appear in the body.
- Gendarmerie should be linked for clarity.
the "Siahkal incident"
– If this is the common name for the event, it doesn't need quotes. If it's not, then it probably doesn't need to be named.
to have been constantly tortured and raped
– Is constantly the right word here? It seems like it's being used to mean "frequently" or "regularly". Likewise for the lead.
Nevertheless, she refused
– This seems laudatory.
She managed to survive the torture
– Also laudatory.
different women of different social classes
– The first "different" can be lost.
; sex workers were abused by the guards, while upper-class dissidents received fully-furnished private cells;
– Two semicolons in the same sentence. Either this should be reworded or the semicolons should be replaced with emdashes (—).
she also came to suggest that
– Wordy. This could just be "she also suggested".
- The article could give the name of her memoir, Torture and Resistance In Iran.
One of the OIPFG leaders that continued to advocate for guerrilla warfare was Dehghani
– This sentence seems backwards. It could read "Dehghani was one of the...", and then the next sentence could say that she was expelled.
little different from the Shah;
– This semicolon should just be a colon.
Dehghani led a minority away
– A minority of what? I suggest changing to "a minority of the organisation's members" or rewording to something like "a small number of the organisation's members".
who had decided up armed struggle
– Are there some missing words here?
one of the most effective guerrila groups, with its members accounting for 20% of arrests and executions by the authorities
– These ideas don't seem to be connected. Some elaboration on how it was successful would be helpful.
- Source doesn't really go into further depth. I'm assuming Zabir was using the figures of arrests and executions to show how much attention the authorities were focusing on them. I've split the sentence for now, but let me know if there's anything else I can do. -- Grnrchst ( talk) 08:56, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- This might just be me, but I usually associate "Legacy" sections with people who have died.
depicted her struggles with torture
– I'd avoid calling something a "struggle" in wikivoice.
her "heroic resitance"
– Is this supposed to be resistance?
was held up as "an example of [the] courage and determination of the Iranian revolutionaries."
– I don't usually make an issue out of passive voice, but here I think it's important to specify who is saying this.
describing her as a "courageous fighter"
– Should this be "who described her as"? Right now Dehghani is the subject of the sentence, so it seems like she's describing herself.
But historian Haideh Moghissi
– "But" can be lost.
Her guerrilla tactics
– The previous sentence talked about Moghissi, so Dehghani should be named again. Otherwise we might be talking about Moghissi's guerrilla tactics.
- Verifiable with no original research
- RoseDog Books seems to be a sketchy self-publishing imprint.
- It's probably reliable, but what is "Occasional Paper"?
- Just checked and its full title is actually the "Abdou Filali-Ensari Occasional Paper Series". It's published by Aga Khan University. [1] Clarified in citation. -- Grnrchst ( talk) 09:03, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
Spot checks:
- Moghadam & Ashtiani (1991)
many Iranian communist groups deviated from the program of armed struggle, claiming the tactic to be outdated
– This source suggests it was only two groups, and it doesn't say anything about claims of being outdated. Does the other source address this?In June 1981, the IPFG and KDP were joined by the People's Mojahedin Organisation (MEK), who had decided up armed struggle against the Islamic Republic
– Could you point to the corresponding text in the source?- In Moghadam & Ashtiani 1991, p. 89:
"The militant Left (Fedayee-Minority, Peykar, the Kurdish organisation Komaleh, Ashraf Dehghani, Organisation of Communist Unity) adopted a hardline and rejectionist policy during this period. Attempts were made to join the Mojahedin in a front against the regime, but failed. The Mojahedin threw their weight behind the beleaguered Bani-Sadr and staged large street demonstrations in his support in the spring of 1981."
; and in Zabir 2011, pp. 109-110:"When the Mojahedin began the armed struggle against the regime in June 1981, as will be shown later, the Dehghani faction became their comrades-in-arms."
. -- Grnrchst ( talk) 09:27, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- In Moghadam & Ashtiani 1991, p. 89:
- Moghissi (1996)
- This source says that she and her brother were both in the organization, but that's about it. Does it add anything to the claim that
During the late 1960s, Dehghani joined her brother in the Organization of Iranian People's Fedai Guerrillas
that isn't addressed by the other sources?- Sorry, I'm not sure what you're asking me here. --
Grnrchst (
talk) 09:49, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- To me, "joined her brother" implies that he was already in the group and then she came on board specifically because he was there. Thebiguglyalien ( talk) 14:30, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Sorry, I'm not sure what you're asking me here. --
Grnrchst (
talk) 09:49, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Only woman on the Central Committee is confirmed, but it's on p. 117.
Dehghani thus contrasted "reactionary women" against "human beings"
– I don't think this is a fair analysis of what Dehghani is saying (which is why I try to avoid any analysis of direct quotes). I read her contrasting "reactionary women" against "revolutionary women", where revolutionary women are "conscious human being[s] dedicated to building a social system within which all humans regain their humanity and honour". The [class] consciousness seems to be the key here rather than humanity.- Per Sedghi 2007, p. 185:
"But there is an apparent effort on Dehghani’s part to juxtapose “woman” – as a narrow notion – with “human” – as a broader, full perspective. In this juxtaposition, Dehghani permits no space for reactionary women as human beings. Dehghani distinguished between women with reactionary values and women as human beings."
Let me know if you think I should still make a change here. -- Grnrchst ( talk) 09:49, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Per Sedghi 2007, p. 185:
- Where does this support "dually exploited" or "needed class conscious male partners"?
- "dually exploited" comes from Sedghi 2007, p. 185. As for the latter, Moghissi 1996, pp. 117-118 quotes directly from Dehghani:
"when a woman acquires class consciousness alongside a man who has also acquired class consciousness, a consciousness that leads her to break the corrupt class system, she is no longer a woman with reactionary values. [...] Revolutionary women and revolutionary men ... fight for creating a society in which there is no room for such questions as to whether or not women should have freedom and whether or not women's freedom is good or bad"
; whereas Sedghi 2007, p. 185 provides some analysis before giving this same quote:"However, she suggests that each woman must have a male companion in order to abolish the class nature of the society. She states, “when a woman attains class consciousness, together with a man who has also gained class consciousness, an understanding that leads them to uproot the class structure, then she is no longer the ‘woman’ of reactionary standards and values but a ‘human being.’”"
Let me know how to proceed. -- Grnrchst ( talk) 09:49, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- "dually exploited" comes from Sedghi 2007, p. 185. As for the latter, Moghissi 1996, pp. 117-118 quotes directly from Dehghani:
- Moghissi doesn't explicitly frame her thoughts about Dehghani's feminism as a "criticism".
- This source says that she and her brother were both in the organization, but that's about it. Does it add anything to the claim that
- Shahidian (1997)
- Does this support
the only woman on its Central Committee
? This source seems to say that she created an organization that allowed women to serve on a committee, which is a slightly different claim.- Per Shahidian 1997, p. 25:
"Accordingto my information, in only two organizations did women hold membership in the central committees-the Cherikhay-eFedaii (a small group established by Ashraf Dehghani and her like-minded comrades) and the OIPFG (minority)"
Yeah this does appear to be saying something different. I've moved the source and this information to later in the article.
- Per Shahidian 1997, p. 25:
- Does this support
has remained in exile ever since
? The source says "until after the revolution", which seems to contradict this.
- Does this support
- Broad in its coverage
- After reading the article, I still don't know what Dehghani actually did during her years as a revolutionary. Did she do anything of note while she was with the OIPFG? She was on the committee, and it says that
Dehghani herself continued her activities
, but I don't really know what that means.
- I'm not sure. Sources mostly talk about her leading role within the OIPFG, her political philosophy and her time in prison. It's possible she was more of a leader than a do-er, if that makes sense? -- Grnrchst ( talk) 10:06, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Does Sedghi at all describe what role Dehghani played prior to her arrest?
Thebiguglyalien (
talk) 14:30, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- In the text, they say that
"Following the Siahkal incident, Dehghani continued her clandestine and guerrilla activities, only to be arrested unexpectedly in Tehran on May 13, 1971 after a harsh and brutal clash with a group of “police and SAVAK thugs.”"
. In one of the footnotes, they also suggest that"Dehghani’s account reveals that she had joined the armed struggle from “the beginning,” which could possibly mean that she participated in the [Siahkal] incident."
-- Grnrchst ( talk) 16:30, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- In the text, they say that
- Does Sedghi at all describe what role Dehghani played prior to her arrest?
Thebiguglyalien (
talk) 14:30, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Moghissi seems to emphasize the importance of Dehghani's femininity in relation to the torture, particularly with the snake example.
- I really tried not to provide too many details of the torture, as it rather disturbed me when I was reading about it. If you think it's necessary, I can write something up about it. I just worry about being too graphic. -- Grnrchst ( talk) 10:06, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- It does seem that the torture is a major aspect of her notability, and Wikipedia generally doesn't exclude graphic details if they're necessary to explain a subject. It doesn't need to be a full description, but it would be good to describe that her torturers believed her to be weak because she was a woman, which would include something like the snake anecdote.
Thebiguglyalien (
talk) 14:30, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- @ Thebiguglyalien: I've written the snake anecdote into it, as I agree that it's quite important for emphasising her feminist perspective and the misogyny of the torturers. I'm still going to air on the side of not providing details for the rest of the torture, as it's just brutality and little more. -- Grnrchst ( talk) 13:22, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- It does seem that the torture is a major aspect of her notability, and Wikipedia generally doesn't exclude graphic details if they're necessary to explain a subject. It doesn't need to be a full description, but it would be good to describe that her torturers believed her to be weak because she was a woman, which would include something like the snake anecdote.
Thebiguglyalien (
talk) 14:30, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
This would eventually lead to the group's effective elimination
– Is there any more detail on how this unfolded?
- From the cited source:
"[Dehghani's] small faction, called the Iranian People’s Fadai Guerrillas (IPFG), engaged in the Kurdish civil war before the repression of all militant opposition in 1981 practically eliminated the group, leaving behind numerous casualties. While based in the Kurdish rebel-controlled zone, a small faction split from the IPFG to carry out armed operations in the Caspian region, in a manner reminiscent of the Siāhkal operation, before the group leaders were killed in March 1982. [...] The state’s heavy-handed suppression in June 1981 cost the Minority hundreds of its supporters, pushing the OIPFG to the Kurdish rebel region. As of July 1982, personality conflicts began to chip away the remainder of the OIPFG (Minority), now stationed in Kurdistan, building up to the bloody clash of factions over the group’s radio station in the Kurdish village of Gāpilon (in Iraq) on 23 January 1986, which left five dead."
-- Grnrchst ( talk) 10:06, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- 1–2 sentences could be added to the article about the group's collapse, since it's directly relevant to Dehghani. Thebiguglyalien ( talk) 14:30, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- From the cited source:
- Neutral
Only minor wording issues, which are covered under criterion one.
- Stable
No disputes.
- Illustrated
One image, which is public domain. The caption is sufficient.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.