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Removing tag since this article should not be deleted per wording of tag: "You may remove this message if you improve the article, or if you otherwise object to deletion of the article for any reason." I know my friend will probably put back a Delete Article tag anyway, so I am here giving my reasons ahead of time why such an article should exist.
The reason is that this particular article is a different subject, so can not be a (different) POV. The subjects are:
These subjects have certain items in common that can not be avoided since they are undisputed facts including the wording of the "letter/poem" itself as I quoted:
It is quite likely that then the reference sources for this information will be the same; however if that is really the objection then I certainly can get get different references for the same information. There are many references and sources furnishing this same information. Example is one addition I put in being the "time-line" of Petrarch's life (Note # 2). If it is Jacob Burkhardt's classic work, The Civilization of the Renaissance in Italy describing this activity of mountain climbing just for the sport of it - then I certainly can replace this reference with an equal. Since this is a very noteworthy event, someday a Wikipedian will write up an article on this anyway (especially if they are into mountain climbing or extreme sports) - so here it is now. Also it looks like another Wikipedian called "DGG" was going to write up such an article anyway (unknown to me at the time I wrote this one up). So if this other editor wants to add his part to this article, I welcome any expansions and additions. Even my friend apparently has something from Boccaccio on the subject, so if he also wants to add and contribute to the article on a very noteworthy event (first time climbing a mountain just for the sport of it and to see what was at the top), I welcome those additions also.-- Doug talk 17:41, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
- Petrarch's experience is called the Ascent of Mont Ventoux. But the crucial event is the descent, the return down to the valley of soul. He deliberately refused the spiritual path (representeed to him by Saint Augustine), remaining loyal to his attachments to writing, the image of Laura, and his reputation among men -- unable to "lift up", as he says, "the inferior parts of my soul". This is further confirmation, I believe, of our reconstruction of the psychology of the passage, of Petrarch's experience on the mountain, and of the root metaphor of the Renaissance. [1]
- Augustine and Petrarch imply three distinct terms: man, nature, and soul. Man may turn outward to the mountains and plains and seas or inward to images corresponding with these, but neither those out there nor those in here are mine, or human. Renaissance psychology begins with a revelation of the independent reality of soul -- the revelation to Petrarch on Mont Ventoux of psychic reality. .... [T]he humanistic fallacy fails to acknowledge what Petrarch actually wrote: Soul is the marvel. It is not the return to nature from man that starts the Renaissance going, but the return to soul. [1]
Unless I'm missing something, none of the sources in the bibliography are cited in the article, with the exception of Petrarch's letter. Of course, the quote from the letter that appears in the body of the article is cited to a website; but the bibliography lists multiple editions and translations of this specific letter, plus editions of Petrarch's letters in the Italian original. Then, there's the odd fact that the Cassirer/Kristeller/Randall anthology Renaissance Views of Man is listed in three separate editions, apparently because a translation of the letter also appears here. And what exactly are:
I don't see any German in the article, and I don't see any references to Modern critical views (which, apparently, Petrarch wrote?), so I have to conclude that this bibliography is the result of an indiscriminate dump of a web search of a library catalog (note the Library of Congress call numbers). I'm taking the whole bibliography section out; if it can be shown that the article is actually citing some of this stuff, then we can put the individual items back in. --Akhilleus ( talk) 04:33, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
A sentence like this one — "The ascent of Mount Ventoux in the spring of 1336 by Petrarch correlates directly with humanism, personal growth and self-knowledge" — reads like subjective blather and has no place in an encyclopedia. Wareh 22:30, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I have just done a pretty radical rewrite of the article. I retained a few of the sources from the previous version--high-quality stuff like the New York Times article and peer-reviewed articles from academic journals. PMAnderson added another peer-reviewed reference by Lynn Thorndyke. In my opinion, this is vastly superior to the hodgepodge of websites and tertiary sources we had before. If you want detailed comment on individual sources from the previous version, please see my and PMAnderson's comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Birthday of alpinism and Talk:Mont Ventoux. --Akhilleus ( talk) 02:58, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't want to put words in PMAnderson's mouth, but I believe the tag relates to the matter discussed above--that we have no good sources for the use of the phrase "birthday of alpinism" or "birth of alpinism", except possibly for the German website linked above. --Akhilleus ( talk) 04:01, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
This actually contains most of the information required for a good short article on Petrarch's letter, which would in any case be a better article subject; there is consensus it exists, and a substantial claim to notability. (This also had substantial support at the two AfDs, for the record.)
I propose the title Ascent of Mont Ventoux, and the following outline:
Amendments are welcome; if there is no substantial objection, there is no need to bother WP:RM. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 13:44, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
I'd suggest waiting for at least a few days - feelings got a bit heated recently, this would give all involved a "breathing space" to reflect and work out a positive way forward. DuncanHill 13:49, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
To help expidite the new article proposal above and to make the new article less controversal, I agree to taking out the wording "Birthday of alpinism." Perhaps then the wording of the first sentences as a lead to the proposed new article could be something along the lines of:
Ascent of Mont Ventoux in a letter written by Petrarch which is also referred to as Familiares 4.1 from his large collection of letters called Epistolae familiares. It is dated "April 26" in the year 1336. The recipient was his close friend the Augustinian monk Dionigi di Borgo San Sepolcro. It is a description of Petrarch's climb with his brother Gherardo and "two stout servants" to the top of Mont Ventoux, which is near his home in Carpentras, France.
Anything along this line of wording is alright with me.-- Doug talk 19:28, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, as of 2012 it's still the absurd Mount Ventoux so I've changed it to its proper name, Mont Ventoux, per our own article. Ericoides ( talk) 12:38, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
I'm not seeing the point of this information being a separate article. If this is about the history of those who climbed Mont Ventoux, then the information should be in the Mont Ventoux article. If this is about one letter in the Epistolae familiares collection, then the information should be at Epistolae familiares with mention at Mont Ventoux. Per Article spinouts - "Summary style" articles, I think that it might be premature to spinout this information into an article of its own. -- Jreferee ( Talk) 15:41, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
cut from the article:
obviously missing a verb. dab (𒁳) 13:32, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
References
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This article was nominated for deletion on June 21, 2007. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Removing tag since this article should not be deleted per wording of tag: "You may remove this message if you improve the article, or if you otherwise object to deletion of the article for any reason." I know my friend will probably put back a Delete Article tag anyway, so I am here giving my reasons ahead of time why such an article should exist.
The reason is that this particular article is a different subject, so can not be a (different) POV. The subjects are:
These subjects have certain items in common that can not be avoided since they are undisputed facts including the wording of the "letter/poem" itself as I quoted:
It is quite likely that then the reference sources for this information will be the same; however if that is really the objection then I certainly can get get different references for the same information. There are many references and sources furnishing this same information. Example is one addition I put in being the "time-line" of Petrarch's life (Note # 2). If it is Jacob Burkhardt's classic work, The Civilization of the Renaissance in Italy describing this activity of mountain climbing just for the sport of it - then I certainly can replace this reference with an equal. Since this is a very noteworthy event, someday a Wikipedian will write up an article on this anyway (especially if they are into mountain climbing or extreme sports) - so here it is now. Also it looks like another Wikipedian called "DGG" was going to write up such an article anyway (unknown to me at the time I wrote this one up). So if this other editor wants to add his part to this article, I welcome any expansions and additions. Even my friend apparently has something from Boccaccio on the subject, so if he also wants to add and contribute to the article on a very noteworthy event (first time climbing a mountain just for the sport of it and to see what was at the top), I welcome those additions also.-- Doug talk 17:41, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
- Petrarch's experience is called the Ascent of Mont Ventoux. But the crucial event is the descent, the return down to the valley of soul. He deliberately refused the spiritual path (representeed to him by Saint Augustine), remaining loyal to his attachments to writing, the image of Laura, and his reputation among men -- unable to "lift up", as he says, "the inferior parts of my soul". This is further confirmation, I believe, of our reconstruction of the psychology of the passage, of Petrarch's experience on the mountain, and of the root metaphor of the Renaissance. [1]
- Augustine and Petrarch imply three distinct terms: man, nature, and soul. Man may turn outward to the mountains and plains and seas or inward to images corresponding with these, but neither those out there nor those in here are mine, or human. Renaissance psychology begins with a revelation of the independent reality of soul -- the revelation to Petrarch on Mont Ventoux of psychic reality. .... [T]he humanistic fallacy fails to acknowledge what Petrarch actually wrote: Soul is the marvel. It is not the return to nature from man that starts the Renaissance going, but the return to soul. [1]
Unless I'm missing something, none of the sources in the bibliography are cited in the article, with the exception of Petrarch's letter. Of course, the quote from the letter that appears in the body of the article is cited to a website; but the bibliography lists multiple editions and translations of this specific letter, plus editions of Petrarch's letters in the Italian original. Then, there's the odd fact that the Cassirer/Kristeller/Randall anthology Renaissance Views of Man is listed in three separate editions, apparently because a translation of the letter also appears here. And what exactly are:
I don't see any German in the article, and I don't see any references to Modern critical views (which, apparently, Petrarch wrote?), so I have to conclude that this bibliography is the result of an indiscriminate dump of a web search of a library catalog (note the Library of Congress call numbers). I'm taking the whole bibliography section out; if it can be shown that the article is actually citing some of this stuff, then we can put the individual items back in. --Akhilleus ( talk) 04:33, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
A sentence like this one — "The ascent of Mount Ventoux in the spring of 1336 by Petrarch correlates directly with humanism, personal growth and self-knowledge" — reads like subjective blather and has no place in an encyclopedia. Wareh 22:30, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I have just done a pretty radical rewrite of the article. I retained a few of the sources from the previous version--high-quality stuff like the New York Times article and peer-reviewed articles from academic journals. PMAnderson added another peer-reviewed reference by Lynn Thorndyke. In my opinion, this is vastly superior to the hodgepodge of websites and tertiary sources we had before. If you want detailed comment on individual sources from the previous version, please see my and PMAnderson's comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Birthday of alpinism and Talk:Mont Ventoux. --Akhilleus ( talk) 02:58, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't want to put words in PMAnderson's mouth, but I believe the tag relates to the matter discussed above--that we have no good sources for the use of the phrase "birthday of alpinism" or "birth of alpinism", except possibly for the German website linked above. --Akhilleus ( talk) 04:01, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
This actually contains most of the information required for a good short article on Petrarch's letter, which would in any case be a better article subject; there is consensus it exists, and a substantial claim to notability. (This also had substantial support at the two AfDs, for the record.)
I propose the title Ascent of Mont Ventoux, and the following outline:
Amendments are welcome; if there is no substantial objection, there is no need to bother WP:RM. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 13:44, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
I'd suggest waiting for at least a few days - feelings got a bit heated recently, this would give all involved a "breathing space" to reflect and work out a positive way forward. DuncanHill 13:49, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
To help expidite the new article proposal above and to make the new article less controversal, I agree to taking out the wording "Birthday of alpinism." Perhaps then the wording of the first sentences as a lead to the proposed new article could be something along the lines of:
Ascent of Mont Ventoux in a letter written by Petrarch which is also referred to as Familiares 4.1 from his large collection of letters called Epistolae familiares. It is dated "April 26" in the year 1336. The recipient was his close friend the Augustinian monk Dionigi di Borgo San Sepolcro. It is a description of Petrarch's climb with his brother Gherardo and "two stout servants" to the top of Mont Ventoux, which is near his home in Carpentras, France.
Anything along this line of wording is alright with me.-- Doug talk 19:28, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, as of 2012 it's still the absurd Mount Ventoux so I've changed it to its proper name, Mont Ventoux, per our own article. Ericoides ( talk) 12:38, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
I'm not seeing the point of this information being a separate article. If this is about the history of those who climbed Mont Ventoux, then the information should be in the Mont Ventoux article. If this is about one letter in the Epistolae familiares collection, then the information should be at Epistolae familiares with mention at Mont Ventoux. Per Article spinouts - "Summary style" articles, I think that it might be premature to spinout this information into an article of its own. -- Jreferee ( Talk) 15:41, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
cut from the article:
obviously missing a verb. dab (𒁳) 13:32, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
References
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Ascent of Mont Ventoux. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 11:01, 19 October 2016 (UTC)